Plato

I think some of you may find the latest review of The Republic of Plato interesting. :-)

It has been garnering some thumb-ups, but they may all be from those of us cataloging the reviewer's library.

Interesting. I have my copy downstairs that I have yet to finish. It is indeed tedious.

I wish Mr. Jefferson had checked Mr. Jefferson for typsos . . . I mean, typos though.

Scary,

Please comment me with the typos. If they aren't TJ's original slips of the quill (or just examples of early spelling), I'll get them fixed.

I read all through it, and "took against" his Republic. I was fascinated to learn years later that that philosopher king stuff wasn't just "philosophizing" --- he had a candidate, and tried to put him in power.

That's brilliant. (I struggled through Plato in college, and never tried again.)

I am, however, so very sad to see that I only share 8 books with "TJ."

Clam,

I think I share 9 so far, but I'm hoping the total will grow. Early days. There are over 6000 books to catalog.

See his profile page, and then click on his 1 group, for more details.

Lack of capitalization in almost every sentence. Very distracting! It makes the dialogue get a bit lost as if it's a run-on sentence. If that's the way he wrote it, you could still update the capitalization to make it easier on 21st century eyes.

Scary,

That's in the original.

If you look at this topic you'll see that I've already been advocating your viewpoint. :-)

How about posting there?

Fair point. I'm just surprised that Jefferson was so lax. Everything I have -- even in his own handwriting -- was always meticulous.

I guess it could have been a en vogue thing like our own BTW, LOL, etc.

It's interesting to see what TJ's opinions were on the Republic, not least of all because of his comments regarding Cicero. Anyone who's read Cicero's own writings (no original philosophy, by the way, all he did was take others' ideas and rhetorize them) would find it laughable to, in two sentences, call Plato the sophist while lauding Cicero as "learned, laborious... & honest." (The last comment about honesty, especially.)

While it's not surprising to see TJ unhappy with the Republic, seeing as it includes a rather forceful condemnation of democracy, I think the most interesting parts of his review are his thoughts about the incorporation of Platonism into later Christianity... not a view I'd heard before.

#9

The thoughts on Platonism & Christianity were what I thought HH members might find interesting. :-)

I'd heard it before. Some of the medieval churchmen practically filed to adopt Plato.

Aha! I hadn't noticed which group this was posted in!

Another interesting aside is that Jefferson would have been reading Plato in the original Greek.

That is a pretty cool review to see. I like to read the words of intelligent minds on the words of other intelligent minds. TJ is definitely on target here, as The Republic is pretty dull. The only reason I got through it is that I had to read excerpts of it for several classes and had good professors and TAs to guide me. Still, one can't deny its importance, even now. Relatively recently, there was a US court ruling on censorship that cited Plato's Republic's concept of mimesis in upholding gag orders on sexuality and violence.

I always thought Plato would've loved Mussolini...

T. J. and I share 17 books, but I don't appear on his list! Shenanigans!

US court ruling:

The Supremes? SCOTUS is getting to be rather Catholic in compostition, so they'd probably be fond of those medieval church fathers.

Mussolini:

The Mask of Apollo by Mary Renault has a great view of Greek theatre, as well as of Plato's efforts to set up his lover and philosopher king candidate as tyrant of Syracuse.

Lola, sure you are on the list! Click to see the raw numbers.

>3 myshelves: & 15
The Mask of Apollo is a fiction novel (one I admittedly have not read), but I want to be careful how we characterize Plato's "efforts to create a philosopher king."

There is, to this day, great disagreement among ancient scholars about the political messages behind the Republic, and that disagreement especially extends to the notion of the philosopher king, and the so-called "Allegory of the Cave."

The contentious issue here is just what Plato meant by talking about the philosopher king as the ruler of the just state. There is ample evidence for the side of the argument that interprets Plato as suggesting that the obligation to be a king is a heavy demand on the philosopher, but that ruling is the (not pleasant) duty he has to fulfill as repayment for the great gift the republic has given him by educating him. There is also significant literature which interprets the Republic, in its entirety, as an ethical, rather than a political, treatise (that is, the entire "republic" as metaphor for the individual).

As far as Plato actually attempting to set up a philosopher king, perhaps that idea was garnered form the Renault book, but to portray it that way is inaccurate. Plato was invited to Syracuse, in order that he might educate Dionysus II, the current (young) ruler of Syracuse about his notion of the philosopher king, and the obligations which Plato associated with ruling. Plato did not advocate the philosopher king being a despotic ruler, rather, he thought that the ruler's obligation was to create the (objectively) best society possible, and that those educated in philosophy were the best suited to such a job.

OK, I'll stop defending Plato now :x

My turn to defend Renault. :-) I suggest reading the novel, and the "Author's Notes" which cite sources.

I wasn't referring to Dionysius II, but to his uncle Dion, "The Savior of Syracuse." Members of the Academy were in the thick of it when he seized power in Syracuse. Dion "calling Zeus to witness, was invoking me and my relatives and friends to prepare at once to take vengeance on Dionysius.... And I, when I heard this, bade him summon my friends to his aid, should they be willing...." --- Plato

I don't think Renault is in need of defense. My worry is not to present as fact certain issues which are still in dispute, and also not to present what is fact in a way that imbues Plato with attitudes which he did not hold.

Re: Dion, yes, it was he who invited Plato to Syracuse, in the hopes of swaying Dionysus II away from the tyrannical habits of Dionysus I, specifically by educating him in Plato's ideal of the city-state and the philosopher king. I think here is where my concern is - that in the way you presented Plato as "actually attempting to institute a philosopher king," I read in that a negative connotation on your part that Plato was himself trying to institute a tyranny, with his gay lover as the tyrant (I admittedly know nothing, nor do I care, about Plato's romances). What I'm challenging is the idea that Plato would have any interest at all in establishing a tyranny, when we take tyranny to include all the negative connotations associated with it today. The only "tyranny" Plato was interested in was one in which the tyrant ruled for the good of the citizens, which is why he felt a philosopher should be the king.

when we take tyranny to include all the negative connotations associated with it today.

When I used the term "tyrant" to denote the ruler of Syracuse, I wasn't referring to modern times, and I didn't expect anyone to attach modern connotations. That was the job title. :-)

With regard to Plato's "romances" (I think he'd have rejected that term), I recommend reading the Symposium. The relationship with Dion (whatever it may have been) is relevant here in that it interfered with the effort to "convert" Dionysius II, and in that it is rather obvious that Dion would have been Plato's preference as ruler.

Plato had already been to Syracuse to work on Dionysius I, with results that made him reluctant to return. One of his problems with Dionysius II was the latter's extreme jealousy that Plato did not prefer him to Dion. (I take that not from Renault, but from the "7th Letter.") Members or "graduates" of the Academy, apparently with Plato's blessing (see my previous quote), did indeed participate in Dion's "hostile takeover."

I was just observing that the "philosopher king" was far from an abstract notion. :-)

Scaryguy,

Good news. TJ's reviews are being edited to include appropriate capitalization.

The grammaticist in me rejoiceth!