FROISSART CHRONICLES

Just finished reading my 2 vol. of FROISSART CHRONICLES. Well, because of such a small font in this DLE, it took me 4 months to finish it. Easton Press should've separated it into 4 volumes to make the font (letters) larger. READ This EASTON PRESS, no more DLE's with small font are allowed to be presented as DLE's. The book is very beautiful but the font is just ridiculous and annoying. Are you taking notes EP?

I almost pulled the trigger several times on those but for some reason I have not. The font is a bit of a smaller issue for me but is definitely relevant!

Maybe one of these days...

I've read a few passages in it, but I'll have to turn on my Kindle for serious study. I refuse to struggle unnecessarily.

It is one of EP's most beautiful DLEs, but the font ruins it for me.

Maybe you're a bunch of old men (or women)? :P
I agree that the font is small, but that's how it was in the original edition. Since this is a facsimile, they retain the original size of the font. Doesn't really bother me to be honest, but I'm not old :D

Oh, and this is truly a beautiful edition...

https://www.librarything.com/topic/195380#5265327

>4 astropi:
It is true that aging eyes often require glasses to restore our perfect vision, but there is no prosthetic that will give you young whippersnappers our wisdom and depth of understanding. :-)

I have no allegiance to the word facsimile. If something can be made better, go for it. The Froissart set is one of the few DLEs that interest me but I won't get it simply because it's too unwieldy. For $600 I better be able to both hold it and read it comfortably. EP's Froissart fails in both those respects.

If the original version had that cramped of a font, I have to ask why. Was it simply because a larger font (more ink, more pages) would have been too costly to manufacture? Imitating that limitation somehow makes these modern incarnations less impressive - today's technology and cost structures can afford better versions of past books, even if they were premium then.

The Folio Society group often calls upon their mole; we should perhaps do the same. EP Mole - you don't have to be religious about making facsimiles, you can do better. Make your books worth the cost you're charging for them. If you can't do that, maybe provide a PDF copy we can actually read to go along with our leather-bound knick-knack.

>6 treereader: "You don't have to be religious about making facsimiles, you can do better."

I don't understand the fascination with facsimiles when it is so easy to improve upon them. Resetting the type can't be very expensive. After all, it is done by computer today. FS does it for almost all their books, including the ones that sell in the $40-$50 range. The range of quality among EP's DLEs is astounding, from the fabulous to worse than mass production.

5: Now that was funny!

Being able to read the book comfortably is a valid issue when spending this kind of money. For the larger books including massive omnibus comic books, I have invested in a lap desk with an incline so I can read the work without always having to hold the heavy book at close to eye level and to maintain a proper body posture for reading for long periods of time (avoiding neck strain). Font size is important to avoid eye strain as is the use of natural or white light. If I have to read a book with a magnifying glass I am not interested. Thus regretfully I took a pass on the illustrated Robinson Crusoe because of small font size. I do listen to the complaints and suggestions of members of this forum.

I read a lot and discussed these issues with both a chiropractor and an optomalogist. And these are their recommendations above.

5: touché

7: " Resetting the type can't be very expensive."
You say this from experience, or just because you want to believe? I'm willing to bet it's the latter. As someone that has done a bit of typesetting I can guarantee you it's a major undertaking. EVERYTHING would have to be typed in, formatted, scaled, checked, double checked, triple checked... and so on. It's far from cheap, and would take a long time. That $500 Froissart would cost double (if not more), and then you would complain it's too expensive. At the end, I'm happy to have the facsimile, and if the font is too small that is unfortunate. Still, I can understand why EP and the FS too, often do straight-up facsimiles. For the record, I too would prefer if everything was type-set and cleaned, but I understand why this is not possible.

>10 astropi:
I have no experience typesetting and would be glad to hear from someone in the business. My reason for saying it can't be expensive is that FS never publishes a book with tiny fonts (like Froissart and Crusoe) or broken ones (like 20,000 Leagues and several others), yet many of them are quite inexpensive. They must be doing something right that EP is not. At the very least, customers should be warned before they order.

11: It depends. A "normal" edition is not too difficult since you just have words, and any illustrations produced for the edition can be placed as need be. It's far trickier to do in a facsimile edition, especially since you have to figure out how to add the footnotes, where the original illustrations should go, how much to enlarge everything, etc. It certainly can be done, but it's not trivial.

>10 astropi: "EVERYTHING would have to be typed in" I don't think so. I would assume that the pages are scanned in and then OCR'ed. That said, scanned work does need to be exhaustively proofed as well as formatted. I agree with you that this work is not necessarily cheap. I bet the EP saves a boatload of money by essentially photo copying most of its works.

13: Possibly. Not sure. It may be that in such instances the software can not read some of the more archaic characters. Regardless, it would still be expensive and time consuming. Not sure what you mean by "EP saves a boatload of money by essentially photo copying most of its works"?

>14 astropi: Since most of EPs books are photo reproductions (e.g. from the LEC, HP or facsimiles) they don't bear the cost of typesetting, formatting and editing which we both agree are expensive and time consuming. I don't see where I was being obtuse.

>13 kdweber: >14 astropi:
Why wouldn't the process be the same as Library of America's? They digitize the pages with ultra-high-resolution scanners; position the images so they will correctly align in the book; check each scan for dust, scratches, warping, and broken letters; and retouch or re-typeset pages that show signs of damage or wear.

They admit the process can be time-consuming, and most of their books do not contain illustrations. Nevertheless, a book cannot properly be described as beautiful or "deluxe" unless the word applies both to the outside and the inside.

>Astropi. I'm still a young guy but I do not want my eyes to go bad by the time I reach my 40s birthday and after paying so much money for DLE I expect them to have larger font. they don't have to blindly copy bad things like small font from the original edition of the FROISSART CHRONICLES.

>16 jroger1: It could be if EP was willing to spend the money to put out a better product. I'm guessing that EP has decided it's more profitable to not go by this route. I believe the LOA is a non-profit and has a different mission than EP.

Actually, no. Most of EP's books are not HP, LEC, nor facsimiles. But with regards to facsimiles, like most I typically much prefer to own the original, but of course with many books the cost is entirely prohibitive so it's nice to have the facsimile as an option. Of course many of EP's facsimiles are sold out, so that is not longer an option either...

I suspect EP could take some of these diminutive DLEs and blow them up by 25% to make them more attractive, at very little cost since they have to make digital images any way. If they had done this with Crusoe and Swift or "Popular Delusions" I would have purchased them. And Bulfinch is a travesty. I actually went out and got the superior B&N edition after seeing this joke of a DLE.

Some of their choices are poor such as Robert's Holy Land. They chose the 3 volume inferior consumer reprint (almost uncolorized) versus the more brilliant original folio subscription. Folio Society did a gorgeous job of reformatting into 2 larger volumes. I wish they had reformatted into 3 volumes at about 11" in gorgeous blue leather like EP. I would have gladly paid double because these places mean a lot to me (been there 3 times).

Let's face it...these facsimiles are not like the originals, in fact so far EP has improved on the originals (Dumas and Hugo).....my point....continue improving on the originals.

>HugoDumas Agreed, completely. LOL

>21 ramboknows: I am not compulsive complainer. I just wish they had used more common sense on their DLEs. They could sell a lot more. I talked to EP the other day. They should have increased the N of reprinting on Dore's The Crusades and Dore's Divine Comedy with no problem to a 1,000. Nobody would have complained and we all would have paid the original retail (which was reasonable). And we could have avoided the predators on eBay. These are spectacular books!

>22 Sergei-K: It's hard to know which books will sell really well before they go on the market.

22: I'm pretty sure some people in this group would have complained. People complain about everything. Granted, sometimes there are reason to complain (damaged books, etc) but in the end I think this thread clearly shows that there is absolutely no point in trying to please everyone.

>Sergei-K and what was EP response to your demand to print more Dore Crusades DLE's?

>astropi Let me tell you something, if people don't complain then, well, we are talking about EP right now, they would think they're doing excellent job producing books. This is how manufacturer's learn, in this case book manufacturer hopefully "will learn" what needs to improve. Improving things does not mean they have to please everyone. This means they will improve to make their books better. I improved one of my medical offices because people wanted another doctor in my office, instead of my office trying to squeeze people to see only me. That took a lot more of my money to spent but at the end of the day I was able to please more people by seeing them at the shorter period of time. It makes me feel much better about my practice. Anyway, making something better should be regular practice at EP, not an exception.

>25 ramboknows: They were quite adamant in stating that when they say a Deluxe Limited Edition numbered to (N), that they view this as a binding contract and would never violate it. This is good news for all of us DLE owners!

Which is why you see them coming out with other versions of Dante.

>HugoDumas Good news. I hope they will make a different version of The Crusades in DLE format.

>28 ramboknows: No the Dore was it if you are going to collect. EP issued the classic 3 volume set on the Crusades by the Historian Runciman which I sold immediately after reading because it upset me so much. I wanted to slit my wrists after reading this horror story. You can still get this from FS I believe. Probably no greater work on this topic....just no art (only maps).

26: I do agree that constructive criticism is important. I'm not saying it's wrong to suggest improvements. On the contrary, I think they're important. However, there's a difference between constructive criticism and just complaining about things. For example, I thought the DLE Ayn Rand Atlus Shrugged was nothing special. Basically two new illustrations, numbered, and a slipcase. Still, I didn't complain because I realized some people really enjoyed the work. In fact, it sold out and now is selling at arguably insane prices in the secondhand market! EP is a business. If I say "Oh, I really didn't like your Atlus Shrugged because... yadda yadda..." which sold out quickly and is in super high demand, what do you think EP is going to do about it? Probably tell me I don't have to purchase it, which is true. Rather than endlessly complain about things, I think people made their point and EP will listen especially if people don't purchase the books. Again, they're a business... and all that said, I do sometimes make suggestions to them :)

28: hmmm, can't see that happening to be honest.

Let me say a word on criticism on this forum. I love it and wish we had 10,000 EP/Franklin collectors on this forum so we could discuss more. I learn from this criticism (and sharing of ideas) and make important purchase decisions based on this criticism. We are all fine book lovers and expect the best when we open an EP DLE book. We do not expect an Opus 1 wine to taste like a cheap "Yellow Tail" from Australia.

The only thing I find unacceptable which I have primarily seen on Folio Society are snooty people criticizing other people for taste in books, or inability to appreciate a particular author or book.

>HugoDumas LOL. I like the way you compared Opus 1 wine to cheap "Yellow Tail" from Australia. I also think that criticizing EP and them listening a little to their what appeared to be main customers, here in this forum, can only do good things for EP and us "fine book lovers."

>31 HugoDumas:
I, too, appreciate the honest opinions of the members of this forum. It is true that the Folio group can be "snooty" at times although I learn from them too, but if you want to see snobbery multiplied by 10, look into the Macy group. I was a member there briefly, but withdrew because I don't like to dialog with know-it-alls. They won't even allow a non-group-member to post a question or message.

If you are looking for a limited edition of Froissart's Chronicles with superlative typography, and can afford it, then I suggest the Shakespeare Head Press edition. Printed in 8 volumes. They were published with cheap, temporary bindings (with the idea that collectors would then have them rebound with customized bindings), but the paper, ink, typography, and illustrations are glorious!

33: There are some great people in that group. However, I can think of at least one member that absolutely fits the bill of "know-it-all". Still, overall I find Macy people less snobby than the FS people. That's just been my experience.

34: Good suggestion! Very hard to find of course, especially in fine condition.

>35 astropi: Yes, it is. I found a set with fine interior and soiled, but solid exterior. I plan to have them rebound in three-quarter goatskin and hand-marbled paper sides when I can afford it.

OCR is a fairly mature technology at this point. All EP would have to do is buy the equipment (scanner + software) or outsource, then proof the results. Modern OCR can handle the archaic letters so long as they're consistent - afterall, OCR can operate on many languages beyond just English. Severely damaged letters, modern or archaic, would need to be human-repaired/validated.

This is why I whine about EP being lazy with these facsimiles. They could produce such amazingly clean pages of text but they won't.

I think it has more to do with their identity as a knick-knack company than a real publisher. When's the last time anyone's verified that EP has printed a book on their own? Are they all outsourced? Were they ever printing in-house?

> 19

Yes, but as most of us would never have had access to the original in the first place, we have no idea what we're missing. And knowing that so many of those originals have character defects like small fonts, we'd rather have improved versions anyway.

36: You'll have to post pics!

37: Seriously? "When's the last time anyone's verified that EP has printed a book on their own?" How about, all the time. Any book that's not a facsimile (with the exception of a few books that they specially bind in leather and thus only do the cover) is printed by EP. I have had many such books.

It goes for many publishers not producing books they sell, including Folio Society. FS told me they used German and Italian contractors to make Aeneid LE book.

>39 astropi: I think they slap leather covers on a number of Chartwell Books' editions.

41: Yes, which is why I noted "with the exception of a few books that they specially bind in leather". They actually do that for a number of books (although a small number compared to those they personally print), not just the Chartwell editions. To be honest, this is not a bad thing necessarily, just not what most of us here are looking for.

>42 astropi: I don't mind that the EP binds other publishers books but I do think they should point this fact out in the description. It always annoys me that the EPs descriptions are mostly marketing hype and frequently leave out information such as the font, translator or publisher. The FS does a much better job describing their books.

43: Agreed.

>14 astropi:

Not sure what you mean by "EP saves a boatload of money by essentially photo copying most of its works"?

Seems pretty obvious what he means. Most of the works are simple unmodified reproductions (of the pages, not the bindings). I guess this is what some people are looking for, and others not so much.

> 39

Yes, seriously. I'm not convinced EP actually puts ink to paper for their books, at least not any more. Maybe they used to. If I had to guess, I'd say that the only printing press EP ever had would have been from the original Heritage Press acquisition, assuming there was one to have from Heritage Press. Given the age of that equipment, plus the general business sentiment that outsourcing is "always cheaper", whatever original equipment they may have inherited was probably decommissioned quite some time ago.

Of course, I really can't know for certain how EP produces all of these books we buy from them but there have been so many subtle clues pointing towards the idea that they don't print anything themselves that I have to take the skeptic's stance: I believe they commission all prints externally, unless it can be proven otherwise - even the non-facsimile books, like the signed first editions. I bet someone else prints and binds them, and EP just stores and ships them.

Would the EP mole care to weigh in?

EP books are produced with an offset press. Digital would look completely different and is not suited for books like this. Now they may not edit the text to clean it up but thats not about how its printed.

>47 cu29640:

I'd have to agree with that. I get scanned books when the original is too rare or expensive. There's a huge difference. If you
think EP is bad, try getting a book from Repressed Publishing. Sometimes they turn out ok. Other times you have entire sentences that are just one big smudge.

>47 cu29640:

I don't think anyone is arguing that they aren't offset printed (unless I'm mistaken, most books are -- unless print on demand). I think digital has only been mentioned (if at all) with regards to the scanned source material. I doubt anything other than offset printing would be economic for print-runs in the hundreds or thousands.

I don't imagine EP does much themselves. Like most "publishers", they are the marketing and sales company that decides what to produce, acquires rights and then contracts various printers and binders to do the actual production work. EP probably does less than most publishers (and is therefore a "thinner" organisation) by virtue of so much of their output being simple reprints.

I think EP mentioned that the illustrations were digitally printed on one of the lower end books...maybe Robin Hood.

>50 cu29640:

Interesting. I wonder what the long-term colour stability is like relative to traditional offset printing.

I am not sure. I do know digital is good for lower volumes...or things with variation like customized aspects.

If EP ever owned up to the fact that they don't actually print their titles, they'd run the risk of damaging their credibility with customers who are actually paying attention - but luckily for EP, those customers are in the minority compared with those that just want the latest William and Kate or cute puppies book for their coffee tables :-O

>53 iluvbeckett: Why do you care if EP prints/binds the books it publishes? The Limited Editions Club put out exemplary fine press editions for years relying on other fine press houses to do the actual printing and binding. It does matter who does the printing and binding but it does not matter if it is the publisher on record doing it in house.

53: Arion Press and a few other fine press do everything in house. Otherwise, EP, FS, Centipede Press, and most any "high quality" publisher do not do things in house. Still, EP is still printed and bound in the USA so I fail to see what the big deal is?

It's an issue of honesty about the product they are selling. It falls into the same category as EP's refusal to disclose translation information. The amount of work EP has to put into commissioning any given work, especially a DLE, they almost certainly know details like who the translator is but they never include it in the product details, in print or online. I would give EP more credit if they would disclose the printing company, or heck, even the printing city.

In addition, by not providing any information, they appear weak in knowledge and categorized more as a knick-knack collectible company than a legitimate publisher. It's in their best interest to appear knowledgeable and prestigious, especially when competing with other publishers or pseudo-publishers who are being up front about their products. Perhaps they feel they can't because of pricing and competition.

56: No one is forcing you to purchase from any "knick-knack collectible company". Also, I don't see any dishonesty. As for a DLE, all of their reproductions include the original preface etc. which clearly state who the translator is (if applicable). Now, I do agree it would be nice if they did a better job with the website. However, I imagine the lacking is because their parent company probably manages the website (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

Anyway, if all that bothers you don't give them your business. Myself, I'm fine with it so I will continue to patronize them.

>56 treereader: "Perhaps they feel they can't because of pricing and competition." What competition, though? Is there any other company that publishes leatherbound books like EP does around the same price? There's a reason FS is frequently pitted against EP - afaik it's the ONLY competitor, and it's product is different enough so that they're really going over two different parts of the top end of the book market, just like fine presses are going after a third segment.

> 57

Yes, it is the website and then also the printed catalog, which are our two main outlets for obtaining information and purchasing from them. It's often held that omitting information is just as culpable as a straight lie...

I'm purposefully mocking EP as a knick-knack collectable company, working under the assumption that they occasionally read these threads. I like their books and I don't want to see them go out of business. As such, I think they should a better job than they're currently doing. One such way is to act like more a fine publisher, providing essential details about their products, and less like, well, a cheap collectibles catalog.

> 58

In a specific sense, yes, EP pretty much has the leatherbound market to itself now.

In a general sense, any publisher that earns a dollar from any of us which could have otherwise been earned by EP is a competitor. Whether it be Folio, Centipede, Arion, Gryphon, or whomever, we are making a choice where we spend our money. There's a lot of market overlap between EP, FS, and any other fine publisher - so much so, that it might as well be one market: high-end books

I personally am not bothered by the fact that many EP products are reprints, if I want it I'll buy it if I want the original I'll get that if not, I won't. I like the specially commissioned illustrations in many folio editions but the fact that many EP books do not have original illustrations doesn't bother me if they are reproduced well. I do wish translators were listed and I don't care for books that are just rebindings from another publisher, but this seems to be an issue mostly with coffee table type books. Outsourced production is fine with me as long as the product is good. The more I get into fine books the more I've realized any publisher is a mixed bag, so I decide on who I buy a particular book from on an individual basis with the exception of my 100 greatest subscription.

> 62

Yes, yes, exactly!

FROISSART CHRONICLES-DLE Item 3012 has returned to the EP site:

https://www.eastonpress.com/all-categories/deluxe-limited-editions/froissarts-ch...

>64 saintmelville:
Froissart is one of EP’s most beautiful editions, yet one of the most frustrating and impractical. The font is the size of a flea’s tooth, making it virtually unreadable for any length of time. It should have been published as a 4 or 6 volume set instead of just 2.