"A tiny minority"? My ass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

Interesting short video. In terms of those rather "radical" muslims worldwide who support Sharia law the per cent is not 15 to 25 per cent, as the lady says, but is more like 35 to 65 per cent, or even more. In Sharia law, for those who don't know, such activities as female circumcision, the death penalty for adultery, honor killings, and the cutting off of hands for stealing are pretty much the norm. Also Sharia is pure theocracy wherein the religious leaders in power and the political leaders in power are the same dudes. This is sick stuff. It is not religious bigotry or stereotyping. It is just the fact of the matter. IOW, the "tiny minority" meme is just an effing lie told a thousand times until it becomes the big lie, which all "liberal" people accept as a given truth. Christians and Jews can sometimes be pretty weird. That is true. But they are not THAT god damn weird.

Quick question, who has more nukes? Christians or Muslims?

Who owns more weapons of mass destruction?

And a law student as a source? Really?

>1 JGL53: When I saw the rather bizarre title of this thread, JGL, my first reaction was to say I'm sorry to hear that your donkey is so small.

Female circumcision is not a sharia thing, but a North African thing (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_female_genital_mutilation_by_country.... So, for example, the Saudis, who are nothing if not into Sharia, oppose it. The practice predates Islam by thousands of years old and, at one time, was practiced by North African Christians too. Christians have almost entirely left it behind, fortunately.

>4 timspalding: It's still relatively common amongst certain Kenyan tribes who are not Muslim and have never been influenced by Islam.

> 2

Let's see - around the year 1918 the flu pandemic killed about 20 per cent of the world's population (1.5 Billion people if today). And a new flu outbreak could occur at any time. So, in comparison to the flu death total, the threat of muslim terrorism is insignificant and can be ignored as we should demand all our governments spend more if not most of their money on the science of finding a prevention for flu.

Correct, BC? I mean, we must all keep things in perspective. That WAS your point, right? Well, then surely I support you 100 per cent. You are the genius here, not me.

> 3

Wow, John, usually you are dull as dirt and as precious as a Hello Kitty! - but sarcasm looks good on you - it's like you bought yourself a new set of fancy clothes.

> 4,5

The next time my local public school suffers a nit infestation I sure as hell know who to go to now to pick them for the poor little brats.

You guys are incredible. Or at least incredibly something.

Addendum: To the point of female genital mutilation not being a muslim requirement, per se'. OK. But the only religions that seem to support female genital mutilation are the animistic ones in Africa and some of the more extreme mullahs in islam.
Christians and Jews? - well, not so much. Uh, maybe not at all?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/25/republicans-christian-america_n_6754032...

57% of Republicans support Christianity as law... Sharia Christian Law...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/18/the-conservative-crusade-for-ch...

> 8

Several things:

1. To just reiterate, firstly, my concluding point in the OP - "Christians and Jews can sometimes be pretty weird. That is true. But they are not THAT god damn weird." - meaning the desire of many christian theocrats to suppress the human, civil and Constitutional rights of homosexuals, and the desire to out-law all abortion is sick stuff, granted - it just does not compare to the many worldwide acts of horrendous murder and mutilation of the innocent in the thousands by thousands of advocates of Islamic theocracy.

2. Surely some christians are as insane as many muslims - no question there. E.g., I saw a tape of a christian preacher (on the Rachel Maddow show) who was calling for the execution of all homosexuals - based on (non-metaphorical) language in the bible. (This nut was the presenter at some christian forum of Ted Cruz and other republican candidates for the Presidency - and none of the candidates were reported to have said anything whatsoever in opposition to this preacher).

3. However just about all of this is talk, i.e., rarely is it acted upon, unlike many muslims who are willing to act and not just talk. It is a matter of seeing where most of the problem lies.

I have quoted the polls taken worldwide that show support for murder of "infidels" and the support of Sharia law, both in the 15 - 65 percent range. There is no group of christians on earth wherein you could find support anywhere close to that percent - regarding murder, honor killings, hands cut off, etc., unless you are talking about the KKK, the christian identity church, nuts who murder doctors who perform abortions, etc. - but such people actually are a very tiny percent of christians worldwide - nothing like 15 -65 percent.

To sum up - the moral equivalency argument, which so many non-thinkers use, is logically fallacious, based on the facts. And not some spin on the facts - the actual facts of who is murdering whom, in what numbers, and who is stating straight up what they support - as opposed to other religious cohorts who just do not measure up on the murder/suicide/crazy-as-bat-shit scale.

I posted the following on the christianity forum but I think it is relevant to this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVrqZbHuMKc

He has it about right, I think.

"Honestly, when is the last time we heard the media refer to those who attack abortion clinics as “Christian terrorists,” even though these attacks occur at one of every five reproductive health-care facilities?"

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s...

"According to the FBI, only 6% of the terrorist attacks on U.S. soil between 1980 and 2005 were carried out by Muslim extremists. Even Jewish extremists carried out more (7%)."

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/are-christians-more-violent-than-muslim...

I'm not arguing equivalency... I'm just trying to point out that "Sam Harris" extreme contempt for Muslims is to quote you "non-thinking" and a logical fallacy... especially if you are sitting in Europe or the US... You are in much more danger from the christian right in US than you are likely to ever be from Muslims...

I find it much scarier that more than one of our Republican contenders for president can appear to agree that the US should execute homosexuals... and believe that we should follow christian law... I don't live in a country where muslims have the majority and every muslim I've ever met or know in any capacity doesn't have any interest in Sharia law for the US... But sadly I know many christians who think the US is a Christian nation and needs to put those beliefs into action... So, Muslim Sharia law in the US in my lifetime is probably 0% likely... Christian Sharia law in the US seems much more likely even if it is still only a very small percentage (I hope.)

Sam Harris's idiocy bores me to tears and shows a complete lack of complex thinking...

" In actuality, 42 percent of terror attacks were carried out by Latino-related groups, followed by 24 percent perpetrated by extreme left-wing actors."

That is interesting. : )

Where are the hate groups in this ranking? Are those acts terrorism?

How does one act of violence become classified as terrorist and one act of violence become classified as hate and another act of violence a mere violent act?

> 11

OK.

Firstly, I have no interest in defending Sam Harris. There are probably 10 or 20 million atheists in the U.S. alone, and I don't feel any particular obligation to defend any of their individual assertions - except my own, of course.

But you make a good point that we in the U.S. are in much more danger from violent christian nuts than from violent muslim nuts. You will have much trouble trying to sell that fact to the christian majority in the U.S. but I will help you do so as much as I can.

But just as a general point of comparative religious philosophy, I find it much more condemning of islam as a whole - as compared to all other modern major religious traditions - that 15 to 65 percent are apparently one step above head-hunting cannibals on the civilization scale - though 57 per cent of republicans multiplied times the percent of the U.S. population that is republican (24 percent) does add up to about 14 percent. How many of them are willing themselves to commit murder or condone murder as a method to gain power is unclear to me.

Just for the record - if anyone isn't aware - I am convinced by the evidence that all religious (supernatural) concepts and claims are useless mental garbage, much of it being dangerous and extremely sick besides. I don't want to be seen as playing favorites here. I have no favorite clown in this religion circus. So - if a christian going nuts and murdering everyone in my neighborhood, including me, is a much more likely scenario than a muslim doing it, then a pox on both their houses, and especially the christian one.

That being said, the 15 -65 percent thing still bugs me - i.e., if that big of a percent of the followers of a major modern religion are up for out-and-out murder and bloody mayhem then I just don't know. That seems pretty darn condemning to me.

> 12

Are we talking stoning of adulterers, suicide bombings, chopping off heads, burying victims alive, burning people alive, or what?

General terms like terrorism - hate - violence - there seems to be room here for apples and oranges. E.g., an Eco-nut group putting nails in trees in logging country - is that considered the equivalent of the Boston bombings in these comparisons? Just asking - do you know?

I would agree that if 65% of muslims want Sharia law, that is a troubling number... 15% is (while still not a happy thought)much less troubling. 15-65% is a pretty loose grouping... on the one end you have just a minority on the other you have a pretty strong majority...

I have no more love of one religion than another, but I have no more hate either.

I don't find it useful to spend my time being deeply scared of or hating religious people individually or as a group. Like it or not most religious people (muslim or otherwise) are just people. Some are great people, some are okay, some are crap... The same can be said of atheist or agnostics as well.

I live in a part of the states where I do live under defacto religious law. I'm not talking anything even remotely close to the levels mentioned in your OP... but...I have mentioned elsewhere on LT that if I had been honest about my atheism during my divorce, it is quite possible I could have ended up with almost no custody rights and that I have worked for bosses who if they knew of my lack of religious standing would have fired me... Hell, I had one who was just suspicious of my spiritual standing and she treated my like crap for several years before I out lasted her. I know many people (and even have family) who would love for the constitution to be re-written to make biblical law official in the US. That said, I don't hate or even dislike most of these people. Most of them are very nice most of the time and just have very shallow thinking when it comes to religion... On other topics, many are very sharp and can be delightful to talk/argue with...

Sorry... I wasn't trying to say you worship Sam Harris, but the OP and several other points made are straight out of his playbook. I realize you never mentioned him... He was on my mind I guess...

> 15

No worries, mate.

For the record I do not hate anyone. I am not sure what the word "hate" actually means anymore since people say things like they hate liver or they hate country music. Ditto the word "love".

I feel pity and compassion toward those I see as victims of religion, especially those victimized by religious brain-washing as children, and/or those who live in a religious bubble and are unaware that their "heartfelt religious opinions" are really not their own as much as it was a deterministic happenstance.

That said, my empathy only goes so far. I despise those who are exploiters within any religion - leaders so-called.

BTW, the 15 - 65 percent range is really more so 10 -90, depending on the country being surveyed and the question at hand - sharia law in general or the condoning of the murder of heretics specifically.

http://usherald.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/546674563.png

and

http://shoebat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/B8s4ouZIcAAgZdN-1.jpg-large.jpeg

- Posted for informational purposes.

>6 JGL53:

Actually, that wouldn't be a bad idea (spending more money on medical research into communicable diseases, that is). As for the 'threat' of muslim terrorism... I'd like to know more about what those muslims consider Sharia law to be. There's a lot of Christian religious laws that are conveniently ignored, even though the Bible doesn't make a distinction as to whether stoning adulterous women is less important than honoring one's parents.

And the fact is that your source is somewhat dubious.

One in five Muslims do what? How to create your own dodgy data (Guardian)

If I may quote the moronic sage Homer Simpson...

"Aw, you can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forfty percent of all people know that."

^ The Pew Polls, i.e., the PewResearchCenter, are well-respected as scientifically accurate. The PRC just does not make up stats like Trump does.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-...

Now - is it all better? Great. Class Dismissed.

> 19

John, I believe this is going to be the last time you fool me into wasting my time. If there were any way to sue you to get that nearly ten minutes of my life back I would do so.

The article says a lot about bad polling techniques. I already knew all that. So do most informed people. The article does not specifically address the scientific basis of any of the many polls that reveal a warm and fuzzy attitude of some significantly large percent of muslims worldwide toward the islamic terrorists. - E.g., the PEW polls.

The Pew polls demonstrate quite clearly what the specific problem is with islam worldwide. And guess what? - No one in their right minds gives one good shit that YOU and people like you don't like the facts and would prefer to avoid them - or make up "facts" that more suit your prejudices.

Some huge percent of religious people worldwide seem to be fucked in the head - by their own religious beliefs. And islam is even more so than any of the other religions on offer. That is the FACT that is continually revealed by SCIENTIFICALLY accurate polls.

To paraphrase N.D. Tyson "The universe doesn't care what you believe." The facts are what they are. But keep on trying to wish them away. That process seems to make you happy.

The REAL on-going human problem is that religion is a disease and atheism is its only cure. But in this case YOU the individual have to be your own doctor.

(And just to be clear by 'religion" I mean those people who actually take it seriously and are not just identifying with some religious label within a social context, i.e., the "nominal" christian, jew, hindu, etc.)

> 18

I am told that redundancy is an effective teaching method so, BC, here ya go - again.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-...

I notice a key phrase in that study. "But many supporters of sharia say it should apply only to their country’s Muslim population." Mind you, that wouldn't fly in most Western countries, but it's also a far cry from 'The Muslims all want us to follow Sharia!"

> 24

Those, apparently, are the moderate muslims we keep hearing about.

>24 BruceCoulson:

Thanks, Bruce. I think one also has to separate shari'a from the huddud criminal penalties. There are Muslims that I know who do want a form of shari'a as a religious foundation to life but who don't agree with the criminal law. There are places where a form of shari'a is used as an optional mechanism for settling civil disputes, for example. As you say, this may not be ideal from a western perspective, but again it is a far cry from the alarmism of the OP. Shari'a is not a one-size-fits-all package.

>26 John5918: Shari'a is not a one-size-fits-all package.

What alarms secularists about religious law of any kind is the implication that its authority is unassailable, not to be challenged. People who exist in the margins of such a system have a very hard time of it.

> 27

All that, or anything like that, just doesn't matter to someone like jtf. Sorry, southernbooklady. With jtf you are not dealing with a rationalist. You are dealing with a religionist. Bottom line, they will stick together and defend each other because, ultimately, they have more in common ideologically with each other than any of them have with rationalists.

jtf is ideologically committed to upholding and spreading the following meme:

"The vast overwhelming number of muslims in the world are peaceful and peace-loving and warm-hearted individuals, just like the average christian or jew, who only want to promote good things in life. It is a teeny-tiny itsy-bitsy very small number of muslims who commit suicide murders, or who condone and support such. Please don't be bigoted and conflate or generalize or stereotype muslims as ALL bad - because that makes baby jesus cry - yadda, yadda, yadda, blah, blah, blah."

I call BULLSHIT.

The koran calls EXPLICITYLY for the murder of all infidels and all apostates. The "no exception" rule is invoked EXPLICITLY.

There is some horrific crap in the old testament in the christian bible, surely. But there is nothing in the o.t. that compares to the Koran in EXPLICITLY calling for murdering ALL who are not islamic.

Most muslims ignore the calls to murder that are in the Koran and we "infidels" should all be god damn glad they do. But the EXPLICIT language commanding murder is there. It is always there for muslims "extremists" to use to recruit . Even if one-one hundredth of one per cent take seriously the EXPLICIT command to murder - then that means there are over 100,000 nuts running loose on the planet earth looking to kill non-muslim infidels.

I for one am growing very FUCKING TIRED of listening to christian, atheist and other non-muslim apologists for these people who are just following the EXPLICIT teachings of their holy book.

Not that the christian bible is a "good book". Of course not. It is just not NEARLY as bad - because its invocations to violence must firstly be subjected to "interpretation" and the "shifting of context" before it is utilized to justify murder. Not so with the koran. It just says "Kill the infidel and the apostate" - straight up, context free, no metaphor or poetic expression - just a literal in-your-face command, issued to all "good" muslims.

>28 JGL53: Actually, while John and I come from very different traditions and philosophies, we seem to agree on quite a few things about how people should be treated, so I can only conclude that any philosophy can be a path to a good heart, just as any philosophy, taken in a different direction, can be used to justify terrible things. I'm more suspicious of extremism than I am of a person's dedication to praying towards Mecca, and more hostile towards unfeeling enforcement of doctrine than I am towards a person who says their rosary. Thus I reject all claims of divine authority as justification of a person's actions, but I don't have a particular problem with people "having faith." Assuming the best, rather than the worst, of people seems to me a good general strategy for getting through life.

Of course, I don't live in a war zone, but even so I think I'd prefer to live in a manner that seeks to reduce fear, rather than fan its flames.

> 29

I see nothing with which to disagree in your first paragraph. All good people, regardless of their religion or lack thereof, should first and foremost just follow the golden rule? Well, yeah - and duh.

Regarding your concluding sentence:

OK. I am just thinking that being a good Jew will not really help in the final analysis if Nazism is a clear and present danger. (That is an analogy - get it?)

>30 JGL53: being a good Jew will not really help in the final analysis if Nazism is a clear and present danger.

Nor will being a bad person. Ultimately we all try to do what we think is right. But we can only answer for our own actions in the end.

Do I have sympathy for Isis supporters? Of course I do: they are humanity’s saddest failures (Guardian)

it’s impossible, surely, not to feel sympathetic to fellow humans who develop such bleak perceptions of their lives that they think Isis is the answer, let alone to act on those bitterly negative views with such avid certainty.

Apparently not. Not only is it possible to feel no sympathy. It’s also desirable. Or so the Sun newspaper wishes us to believe. The Sun, in the wake of the Paris attacks, ran a now-notorious headline designed to get its readers in a righteous lather because a poll had found that 20% of Muslims felt “sympathy” for British jihadis.

Many people... have expressed disgust at the way the material was used...

> 32

You - and a very few other people - are just too good for this world, jtf.

In fact, you may be too good for heaven.

After all, Jehovah the father was responsible for umpteen violent deaths in the O.T. - and even Jesus the son meek and mild took the law into his own hands and whipped those cheating moneychangers out of the temple.

So at least 2 of the 3 persons of the trinity believed smackdowns with extreme prejudice were sometimes if not many times an absolute necessity. Poor examples for the children some might say but when you are top dog of all dogs you apparently can just do what you want, similar to Eric Cartman. lol.

So only 20 per cent of how many millions of Muslims in Britain are sympathetic to the jihadis, aka filthy insane murderers?

Gee - ONLY 20 per cent? Should we consider that progress or an ameliorating trend if, say, fully 40 per cent looked favorably on religion-inspired murder a decade or two ago?

You know something, jtf - you are just not funny - at all - any more. I admit I used to laugh at you like you were some sort of clown or something but I now am beginning to see that I was misunderestimating you.

You - and those like you - are a clear and present danger to the body politic of the world. Quislings, Fifth Columnists, unindicted co-conspirators, and general apologists for murder are a big part of the problem here on earth in any serious attempt to isolate and deal effectively with the organized religious islamic murderers who are now terrorizing the world (even though the murderers themselves only number in the tens of thousands in a world of billions - but most people aren't numerologists and don't give a shit about the ratios).