Web Standards religion
Talk Web Developers!
This group has been archived. Find out more.
Join LibraryThing to post.
1timspalding
Del.icio.us's popular links for the tag "books" include this gem: http://streetteam.webstandards.org/goodbooks/
Basically, they're bookmarks for you to print out and stick in web design books you don't like, warning potential buyers to avoid the book, which isn't fully doctrinaire, and pick up something by Zeldman or someone like that. They came out the annual meeting of the Web Standards Project at SXSW.
Personally, I'm offended by the whole thing. Putting scolding notes in books is a very low activity—nosy and superior. Until this the only examples I'd seen involved extreme religious leaflets that someone had cleverly concealed in books at Georgetown, where I went to school.
From one religion to another! Well, I find it very telling that the standards extremists are resorting to this tactic. While the whole industry has moved in the direction of standards, that movement has largely stopped where doctrine met reality. Standards extremists today must explain why the are smarter than Google, Facebook and all the other sites that continue to use tables and other no-nos—because they work.
I found them annoying when they restricted their shrill objurgations to blogs and friendly fora. But back off the books, guys.
Basically, they're bookmarks for you to print out and stick in web design books you don't like, warning potential buyers to avoid the book, which isn't fully doctrinaire, and pick up something by Zeldman or someone like that. They came out the annual meeting of the Web Standards Project at SXSW.
Personally, I'm offended by the whole thing. Putting scolding notes in books is a very low activity—nosy and superior. Until this the only examples I'd seen involved extreme religious leaflets that someone had cleverly concealed in books at Georgetown, where I went to school.
From one religion to another! Well, I find it very telling that the standards extremists are resorting to this tactic. While the whole industry has moved in the direction of standards, that movement has largely stopped where doctrine met reality. Standards extremists today must explain why the are smarter than Google, Facebook and all the other sites that continue to use tables and other no-nos—because they work.
I found them annoying when they restricted their shrill objurgations to blogs and friendly fora. But back off the books, guys.
2lambada
I have to agree with you here.
Standards have a place and in an ideal world they would simplify the process no end.
But when people refuse to admit that Standards have a limit then we get those sites which put up a huge banner if they detect IE.
As for their tirade against tables - they certainly make it easier to learn the basics of web coding. And Tables are still apart of the standards - How else could you get tabular data to display properly otherwise?
I, for one would love to see full standards support in every single web-browser, but I realise that because of the very nature of open standards that would be near impossible I accept the limitations and work around them if need be.
Standards have a place and in an ideal world they would simplify the process no end.
But when people refuse to admit that Standards have a limit then we get those sites which put up a huge banner if they detect IE.
As for their tirade against tables - they certainly make it easier to learn the basics of web coding. And Tables are still apart of the standards - How else could you get tabular data to display properly otherwise?
I, for one would love to see full standards support in every single web-browser, but I realise that because of the very nature of open standards that would be near impossible I accept the limitations and work around them if need be.
3andyl
They don't really have a tirade against tables for showing tabular data just against tables being used to layout text. In the bad old days I have seen designs with tables embedded within tables to a high degree to try and get a pixel perfect design.
Speaking as someone who writes software for a living (and who has written sites using CSS layouts and maintained a table based layout for) using CSS for layout is easier, less error-prone and quicker to develop and to render.
Oh and I deplore the bookmarks - they aren't going to have any effect on the people who pick up a book with the bookmark well except a detrimental one as it gets people's backs up.
Speaking as someone who writes software for a living (and who has written sites using CSS layouts and maintained a table based layout for) using CSS for layout is easier, less error-prone and quicker to develop and to render.
Oh and I deplore the bookmarks - they aren't going to have any effect on the people who pick up a book with the bookmark well except a detrimental one as it gets people's backs up.
4conceptDawg
The bookmarks really are a low point for the Religion of The Great Standards Monster. If I came upon one of the bookmarks it would really annoy me. If I came upon one of the bookmarks in a book that I wrote then it would do far more than annoy me.
A also agree that web standards are a great thing but that they don't always make out so well when they run headlong into the the reality of coding and design on the web. The reality is that until every browser treats the standards the same way then tables are going to be the fallback for column-based layouts. And honestly, only about 1% of a site's users are knowledgeable enough to even know what web standards are and only about 1% of those are going to care enough to check the code of a site. In the end it is a bit of a situation where the web-standards gurus (zeldman and the rest) that are A-list bloggers have created a problem that, while it existed, wasn't noticed. But because they are A-listers they can influence people beyond the point of being rational, make a name for themselves, and get quite a following. Hm....that sounds a lot like religion and they sound a lot like televangelists.
I think zeldman does good work and web standards concerns are valid and needed but web standards are not an all powerful god. Villifying those that can't or don't use the standards is not acceptable, especially when the god doesn't solve any of the people's worldly needs. After all, the web standards god hasn't promised everlasting salvation in trade for using properly formatted CSS.
A also agree that web standards are a great thing but that they don't always make out so well when they run headlong into the the reality of coding and design on the web. The reality is that until every browser treats the standards the same way then tables are going to be the fallback for column-based layouts. And honestly, only about 1% of a site's users are knowledgeable enough to even know what web standards are and only about 1% of those are going to care enough to check the code of a site. In the end it is a bit of a situation where the web-standards gurus (zeldman and the rest) that are A-list bloggers have created a problem that, while it existed, wasn't noticed. But because they are A-listers they can influence people beyond the point of being rational, make a name for themselves, and get quite a following. Hm....that sounds a lot like religion and they sound a lot like televangelists.
I think zeldman does good work and web standards concerns are valid and needed but web standards are not an all powerful god. Villifying those that can't or don't use the standards is not acceptable, especially when the god doesn't solve any of the people's worldly needs. After all, the web standards god hasn't promised everlasting salvation in trade for using properly formatted CSS.
