1PocheFamily
Thought I'd attempt to revive this group and see if others are currently reading/collecting in this area.
I visited the Hunley last month and grew up visiting the USS Cod regularly. My Dad was an engineer for Gould/Westinghouse and so subs were always in the background. I've finally come around to reading up on the subject. I have a lot to learn.
I finished The Ice Diaries by Capt Wm Anderson recently, and was able to find a rogue copy of the children's book, First under the North Pole with lots of lovely pictures. I'm planning a visit to the Nautilus in CT soon - my third visit and am anticipating getting more out of this visit because of the reading.
Am slowly making my way through the podcast "Submarine Sea Stories" hosted by Bill Nowicki, Sub Tales: Stories that Seldom Surface, and U Boats in the Bay of Biscay: An Essay in Operations Analysis. Stealth Boat is likely to be up next.
Be sure I'll be reading through the older threads in this group to collect ideas and the names of titles to find. Always happy to get a recommendation!
I visited the Hunley last month and grew up visiting the USS Cod regularly. My Dad was an engineer for Gould/Westinghouse and so subs were always in the background. I've finally come around to reading up on the subject. I have a lot to learn.
I finished The Ice Diaries by Capt Wm Anderson recently, and was able to find a rogue copy of the children's book, First under the North Pole with lots of lovely pictures. I'm planning a visit to the Nautilus in CT soon - my third visit and am anticipating getting more out of this visit because of the reading.
Am slowly making my way through the podcast "Submarine Sea Stories" hosted by Bill Nowicki, Sub Tales: Stories that Seldom Surface, and U Boats in the Bay of Biscay: An Essay in Operations Analysis. Stealth Boat is likely to be up next.
Be sure I'll be reading through the older threads in this group to collect ideas and the names of titles to find. Always happy to get a recommendation!
2PocheFamily
Finished The Death of the USS Thresher, Norman Polmar
An informative survey of the events in the brief life of the USS Thresher. My deeper appreciation goes to the coverage of the history of submarine losses, deep sea submersibles and sea rescue, which put the loss of the USS Thresher into historical context (hint: it's not a one-off).
I've read several reader reviews that Polmar is a good naval history writer (a lot of these reviews cited the Rickover biography). I would say that as to Rickover, in this book the author is keeping him at arms length, and I think misses the fact that more than CYA-type actions, Rickover is madly protecting the nuclear sub program and even taking advantage of the opportunities offered him to get ahead of the "fear the nukes" crowd to promote the nuclear safety record of his group.
It was included with an Audible subscription. A good narration/moderately easy read.
An informative survey of the events in the brief life of the USS Thresher. My deeper appreciation goes to the coverage of the history of submarine losses, deep sea submersibles and sea rescue, which put the loss of the USS Thresher into historical context (hint: it's not a one-off).
I've read several reader reviews that Polmar is a good naval history writer (a lot of these reviews cited the Rickover biography). I would say that as to Rickover, in this book the author is keeping him at arms length, and I think misses the fact that more than CYA-type actions, Rickover is madly protecting the nuclear sub program and even taking advantage of the opportunities offered him to get ahead of the "fear the nukes" crowd to promote the nuclear safety record of his group.
It was included with an Audible subscription. A good narration/moderately easy read.
3kcshankd
AHH-OOOOO-GAH
My most recent on-topic submarine adventure would be adding The Horse & Cow to my stops on the way to the coast from the Seattle suburbs. Just stopped by last weekend.
The most recent (though LT tells me it was 2018) submarine book I read was Unrestricted Warfare, which was excellent. It follows Wahoo through the early days of the war, and then the commands of junior officers that served under Mush Morton on that well known boat. Richard O'Kane of the Tang was the most famous of them. The chapter on the death of the Tang (from a circular run) was very hard reading, led to one or two submares for me.
My most recent on-topic submarine adventure would be adding The Horse & Cow to my stops on the way to the coast from the Seattle suburbs. Just stopped by last weekend.
The most recent (though LT tells me it was 2018) submarine book I read was Unrestricted Warfare, which was excellent. It follows Wahoo through the early days of the war, and then the commands of junior officers that served under Mush Morton on that well known boat. Richard O'Kane of the Tang was the most famous of them. The chapter on the death of the Tang (from a circular run) was very hard reading, led to one or two submares for me.
4PocheFamily
>3 kcshankd: kcshankd - I was up in that area last spring, met a sailor from the Carter at the Naval Undersea Museum (a cool place). Turned a corner at the museum, into the torpedo room, and was immediately struck by the Mark48 - recognized it instantly as the one my Dad's company manufactured. That experience propelled me down this rabbit hole!
Listened to the quickie Audible book, God & Spies: Based on a True Story, Top Secret Operation, G.M. Matheny. This is an auto-biographical account and perspective on the Ivy Bells project, written after the declassification of project documents (the author is very careful to describe these documents - not the enjoyable part of the book but it serves a purpose). The story is wrapped in his growth professionally and religiously, and is told from his personal perspective with a little artistic license thrown in to keep the story moving. I found it an interesting recounting of the mission to tap the undersea cables and the adventures had along the way.
There's an aspect of these stories that always makes me think "only for the young and - " (let's say "fearless") ... but mostly I come away thinking it's incredible what can be accomplished with a 'little' technology and engineering know-how. Since I've mostly read about WWII subs and diesels up until recently, I'm finding these nuclear boats a different type of jaw-dropping.
Listened to the quickie Audible book, God & Spies: Based on a True Story, Top Secret Operation, G.M. Matheny. This is an auto-biographical account and perspective on the Ivy Bells project, written after the declassification of project documents (the author is very careful to describe these documents - not the enjoyable part of the book but it serves a purpose). The story is wrapped in his growth professionally and religiously, and is told from his personal perspective with a little artistic license thrown in to keep the story moving. I found it an interesting recounting of the mission to tap the undersea cables and the adventures had along the way.
There's an aspect of these stories that always makes me think "only for the young and - " (let's say "fearless") ... but mostly I come away thinking it's incredible what can be accomplished with a 'little' technology and engineering know-how. Since I've mostly read about WWII subs and diesels up until recently, I'm finding these nuclear boats a different type of jaw-dropping.
5PocheFamily
Listened to three good ones this past week: (I think they were all included with an Audible subscription - I recently harvested all the included sub books and am making my way through them)
1. Against the Tide: Rickover's Leadership Principles and the Rise of the Nuclear Navy, RADM Dave Oliver: an acolyte's rebuttal at some level, but also an interesting perspective on not just Rickover's battles within the Navy but also the cultural shifts the Navy had to make. Technology changes society, afterall. The author also throws in management lessons and each chapter ends as a management text might, with questions meant to draw forth the themes, promote reflection, and encourage application of lessons learned. Saint Rickover, indeed: this work gives some sense of who Rickover was in lieu of an autobiography.
2. Surface at the Pole, James Calvert: Another exciting adventure in the Arctic with lots of firsts from 1950's explorers. Having read The Ice Diaries by William Anderson recently, I can say this is the better book, or more exciting adventure in many ways. It includes a lot of references to previous Arctic exploration: I can't help but feel that this work would make a nice subject for a compare & contrast to the space exploration of the 1960s. The author, the former commander of the USS Skate whose adventures are recounted, also was an interesting personality study in view of just having finished Oliver's book (#1 above). The types of commanders recruited by Rickover in the earliest days of the nuclear submarine program, according to Oliver, were the adventurous, squeaky-clean, charismatic type - in stark contrast to Rickover's own physical presence and publicly visible personality. Regardless, the Skate crew had a tremendous adventure, and it was the kind of book that elicits appreciation for the adventure's challenges and whets the appetite for more of the same.
3. U.S.S. Seawolf: Submarine Raider of the Pacific, Gerold Frank and others: I still can't believe I knew nothing, was taught nothing, and no one ever talks about the amazing naval history of WWII. I love books like this one: told by the witness to two ghostwriters (supposedly on a long train trip - not sure about the veracity of that), who created a first person narrative of an enlisted man's experience during the first half of the Pacific War. This is when things weren't going well for the Allies in the Pacific, yet the USS Seawolf SS-197 had some remarkable success. The reader definitely gets a sense of what it was really like on a Sargo-class sub, and what the transition to wartime patrols felt like to the crew. There is a "moment captured in time" aspect, especially knowing what we do now about the faulty Mark 14 torpedoes, the technological advances of radio and sonar during WWII, and the ultimate fate of the USS Seawolf SS-197 (all unknown in the text of this book). Good stuff! And I don't feel the least like a Bad Mom for ignoring my kids to go off and listen to this all evening last night!
1. Against the Tide: Rickover's Leadership Principles and the Rise of the Nuclear Navy, RADM Dave Oliver: an acolyte's rebuttal at some level, but also an interesting perspective on not just Rickover's battles within the Navy but also the cultural shifts the Navy had to make. Technology changes society, afterall. The author also throws in management lessons and each chapter ends as a management text might, with questions meant to draw forth the themes, promote reflection, and encourage application of lessons learned. Saint Rickover, indeed: this work gives some sense of who Rickover was in lieu of an autobiography.
2. Surface at the Pole, James Calvert: Another exciting adventure in the Arctic with lots of firsts from 1950's explorers. Having read The Ice Diaries by William Anderson recently, I can say this is the better book, or more exciting adventure in many ways. It includes a lot of references to previous Arctic exploration: I can't help but feel that this work would make a nice subject for a compare & contrast to the space exploration of the 1960s. The author, the former commander of the USS Skate whose adventures are recounted, also was an interesting personality study in view of just having finished Oliver's book (#1 above). The types of commanders recruited by Rickover in the earliest days of the nuclear submarine program, according to Oliver, were the adventurous, squeaky-clean, charismatic type - in stark contrast to Rickover's own physical presence and publicly visible personality. Regardless, the Skate crew had a tremendous adventure, and it was the kind of book that elicits appreciation for the adventure's challenges and whets the appetite for more of the same.
3. U.S.S. Seawolf: Submarine Raider of the Pacific, Gerold Frank and others: I still can't believe I knew nothing, was taught nothing, and no one ever talks about the amazing naval history of WWII. I love books like this one: told by the witness to two ghostwriters (supposedly on a long train trip - not sure about the veracity of that), who created a first person narrative of an enlisted man's experience during the first half of the Pacific War. This is when things weren't going well for the Allies in the Pacific, yet the USS Seawolf SS-197 had some remarkable success. The reader definitely gets a sense of what it was really like on a Sargo-class sub, and what the transition to wartime patrols felt like to the crew. There is a "moment captured in time" aspect, especially knowing what we do now about the faulty Mark 14 torpedoes, the technological advances of radio and sonar during WWII, and the ultimate fate of the USS Seawolf SS-197 (all unknown in the text of this book). Good stuff! And I don't feel the least like a Bad Mom for ignoring my kids to go off and listen to this all evening last night!
6PocheFamily
Picked up a couple of submarine-subject books at the local library. Actually, I was impressed how many are available at the two branches I use (one is county-level). So another place to harvest reading material!
To enjoy a "quick win", I borrowed Silent Chase: Submarines of the U.S. Navy, which rather than a book about submarine adventures, is the result of a father-son team who traveled about the northern hemisphere to photograph submarines at work. In other words, a coffee table book of sorts, with beautiful photographs of subs and their crews ... think: boomers with sunsets and you get the idea! It was pretty, included a light amount of text largely describing (very generally) the different roles onboard.
In addition to the other book I borrowed from the library, Submarine boats: The beginnings of underwater warfare for some information on the earliest days of subs, a friend loaned me We Come Unseen: The Untold Story of Britain's Cold War Submariners. Thanks to YouTube I'm already aware of the difference with the British subs' command structure. But this looks to be so much more informative, not just about the Cold War, but also about the submariners as it will track 6 JOs through time according to the prologue. Looking forward to getting to these two over the next week or so!
To enjoy a "quick win", I borrowed Silent Chase: Submarines of the U.S. Navy, which rather than a book about submarine adventures, is the result of a father-son team who traveled about the northern hemisphere to photograph submarines at work. In other words, a coffee table book of sorts, with beautiful photographs of subs and their crews ... think: boomers with sunsets and you get the idea! It was pretty, included a light amount of text largely describing (very generally) the different roles onboard.
In addition to the other book I borrowed from the library, Submarine boats: The beginnings of underwater warfare for some information on the earliest days of subs, a friend loaned me We Come Unseen: The Untold Story of Britain's Cold War Submariners. Thanks to YouTube I'm already aware of the difference with the British subs' command structure. But this looks to be so much more informative, not just about the Cold War, but also about the submariners as it will track 6 JOs through time according to the prologue. Looking forward to getting to these two over the next week or so!
7PocheFamily
Finished Sub Tales: Stories that Seldom Surface, which was just fun to read. Apparently I skipped over it's predecessor in the series, as this is a sequel to Poopie Suits & Cowboy Boots, which I'll have to go search for next!
Am anticipating a visit to the USS Becuna (SS-319) this coming week, which should be an interesting look at a Balao class sub with a Guppy refit. Am particularly interested in looking at the snorkel system (I'm becoming such a nerd about these boats). I'll also see what I can glean about her Arctic service: was it just part of her training service life? Or included in the NATO exercises? Anyways, I'll undoubtedly be referring back to the boats in Final Patrol: True Stories of World War II Submarines, a nice, narrative index of boats and submarine museums throughout the country.
Am anticipating a visit to the USS Becuna (SS-319) this coming week, which should be an interesting look at a Balao class sub with a Guppy refit. Am particularly interested in looking at the snorkel system (I'm becoming such a nerd about these boats). I'll also see what I can glean about her Arctic service: was it just part of her training service life? Or included in the NATO exercises? Anyways, I'll undoubtedly be referring back to the boats in Final Patrol: True Stories of World War II Submarines, a nice, narrative index of boats and submarine museums throughout the country.
8PocheFamily
Just a quick note: the Paterson Museum in Paterson, NJ has the Holland I and Holland II (aka the Fenian Ram) for public viewing at any time. The museum was a surprise ... it's free but very limited hours (not open on weekends) and has a little bit of everything touching upon the fine state of New Jersey. Perfect for school kids. And wow - it's so cool to see these super early subs!!
9PocheFamily
We Come Unseen, Jim Ring.
This book recounts the British submarine's role during the Cold War, including their role in the sinking of the Belgrano during the Falklands War. Still just exploring submarines within the greater field of naval history, I found it fascinating to review the history of British and NATO missions in the Atlantic - a fresh perspective from the American sub history. There were quite helpful descriptions of Soviet submarine activities to balance the narrative. And, of course, quite a lot of information about the Falklands, the naval strategies of that war, and lessons learned.
If I came away with a few nuggets, they were: an improved understanding of the British Dartmouth-to-Perisher course career trajectory; the logistics and naval strategy of the British during the Falklands War; why the Mark 8 torpedo was used to fire upon the Belgrano; and a better understanding of the NATO patrol work achieved to counter Soviet threats. This is not an overly detailed book but has plenty of technical details for those more knowledgeable than myself.
This book recounts the British submarine's role during the Cold War, including their role in the sinking of the Belgrano during the Falklands War. Still just exploring submarines within the greater field of naval history, I found it fascinating to review the history of British and NATO missions in the Atlantic - a fresh perspective from the American sub history. There were quite helpful descriptions of Soviet submarine activities to balance the narrative. And, of course, quite a lot of information about the Falklands, the naval strategies of that war, and lessons learned.
If I came away with a few nuggets, they were: an improved understanding of the British Dartmouth-to-Perisher course career trajectory; the logistics and naval strategy of the British during the Falklands War; why the Mark 8 torpedo was used to fire upon the Belgrano; and a better understanding of the NATO patrol work achieved to counter Soviet threats. This is not an overly detailed book but has plenty of technical details for those more knowledgeable than myself.
10PocheFamily
Submarine boats: The beginnings of underwater warfare, Richard Compton-Hall.
A review of the early years of the development of submarines in navies throughout the world with a special focus on British and American efforts. Really appreciated the review of Russian and Turkish early submarines - more information than I'd seen elsewhere, and perhaps not surprising given that the author was the Director of the Submarine Museum at Gosport at the time of publication. Loads of pictures of the early boats (or what can be seen of them). A useful book to the submarine historian.
A review of the early years of the development of submarines in navies throughout the world with a special focus on British and American efforts. Really appreciated the review of Russian and Turkish early submarines - more information than I'd seen elsewhere, and perhaps not surprising given that the author was the Director of the Submarine Museum at Gosport at the time of publication. Loads of pictures of the early boats (or what can be seen of them). A useful book to the submarine historian.
11PocheFamily
Stalking the Red Bear, by Peter Sasgen was a quick listen through Audible. This work is drafted as a thriller novel set in the Cold War, based on the experience of unnamed sailors on various submarine missions, but fictionalized. The 99% boredom is not emphasized, but the 1% sheer terror definitely is highlighted. I've just started both Red November and Blind Man's Bluff and confess I vastly prefer non-fiction. Other than Red October, are there any good/fun fictional works?
12PocheFamily
Haven't given up on connecting dots here on LT through this group ...
Recently re-listened to Alex Fleming's Making a Submarine Officer, an first-hand account of a struggling young officer's growth while trying to earn his dolphins. It's full of good/bad leadership lessons, and quite frankly lessons on attitude for the lead. It was a nice reminder of the important lessons on that journey.
Also had a chance to visit the Nautilus Museum in Groton, CT at the end of the summer. I had forgotten how much larger it is than the WWII boats I've visited more recently. I appreciate being able to visit such an historic and fascinating technological artifact (if that's the right word) after reading about its many innovations and historic missions.
Recently re-listened to Alex Fleming's Making a Submarine Officer, an first-hand account of a struggling young officer's growth while trying to earn his dolphins. It's full of good/bad leadership lessons, and quite frankly lessons on attitude for the lead. It was a nice reminder of the important lessons on that journey.
Also had a chance to visit the Nautilus Museum in Groton, CT at the end of the summer. I had forgotten how much larger it is than the WWII boats I've visited more recently. I appreciate being able to visit such an historic and fascinating technological artifact (if that's the right word) after reading about its many innovations and historic missions.
13kcshankd
Thanks for keeping this going.
I haven't read anything exclusively submarine related, but Nimitz at War is excellent, and touches on his early submarine service, and the service of his son during the war.
I also read Coral Sea, Midway, and Submarine Actions, volume 4 in Morison's tremendous history, which as advertised describes the early war COMSUBPAC efforts.
I haven't read anything exclusively submarine related, but Nimitz at War is excellent, and touches on his early submarine service, and the service of his son during the war.
I also read Coral Sea, Midway, and Submarine Actions, volume 4 in Morison's tremendous history, which as advertised describes the early war COMSUBPAC efforts.
14PocheFamily
>13 kcshankd: And thanks for participating! I haven't read either of the two books you mention, so will add them to my TBR list. I've been bouncing back and forth between the earliest subs, diesels/WWII, and the nuclear boats. The Nimitz book you mention is of particular interest - I read a biography of Spruance earlier this year and now want to learn about the other Pacific admirals. Thanks!
15PocheFamily
I've decided to end the year on a deep note ... pun intended! For my 75th book of the year I'm listening (audible) and reading (Kindle) Jules Verne's 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. It seems terribly appropriate for a year that included first time visits to the Holland boats in Paterson, NJ, the Hunley in Charleston, SC, and the Becuna (USS-319, a Balao class) in Philadelphia, PA; and re-visits to the Nautilus (SSN571) in New London, CT and the Cod (USS-224, a Gato class) in Cleveland, OH. Yeah. A very interesting year for us!
I expect to have time to just start James Scott's The War Below before the stroke of midnight Sunday. Then it'll be 2024, the year Jane Jetson will be born, so I'm looking forward to my flying car any day now. Yes, it's time to look ahead:
On the travel visits and WWII subs theme, I'm hoping next year includes a visit to the Bowfin (USS-287) in Pearl Harbor, HI, and of course the Submarine Museum there (and EVERYthing else). I may be able to squeeze in a visit to the Blueback (USS-581, a Barbel class-it'd be my first view of one) when in OR. I would like to find some books about Operation Gambit or other D-day support operations by the submarine services of the Allies. I'm looking forward to spending the 80th anniversary of D-day in Normandy, and intend on being as well read as I can manage for that visit.
I also have Dick O'Kane's Clear the Bridge! The War Patrols of the U.S.S. Tang still on my TBR list. THAT will undoubtedly be an exciting read! (I loved The Bravest Man: The story of Richard O'Kane & U.S. Submariners in the Pacific War). Nimitz at War: Command Leadership from Pearl Harbor to Tokyo Bay is definitely on my TBR for 2024, given the above recommendation.
But I don't yet have a plan for my reading on nuclear subs or Cold War era submarine operations. May have to wait to see what strikes the mood when my attention pivots! Am certainly open to suggestions!!
I expect to have time to just start James Scott's The War Below before the stroke of midnight Sunday. Then it'll be 2024, the year Jane Jetson will be born, so I'm looking forward to my flying car any day now. Yes, it's time to look ahead:
On the travel visits and WWII subs theme, I'm hoping next year includes a visit to the Bowfin (USS-287) in Pearl Harbor, HI, and of course the Submarine Museum there (and EVERYthing else). I may be able to squeeze in a visit to the Blueback (USS-581, a Barbel class-it'd be my first view of one) when in OR. I would like to find some books about Operation Gambit or other D-day support operations by the submarine services of the Allies. I'm looking forward to spending the 80th anniversary of D-day in Normandy, and intend on being as well read as I can manage for that visit.
I also have Dick O'Kane's Clear the Bridge! The War Patrols of the U.S.S. Tang still on my TBR list. THAT will undoubtedly be an exciting read! (I loved The Bravest Man: The story of Richard O'Kane & U.S. Submariners in the Pacific War). Nimitz at War: Command Leadership from Pearl Harbor to Tokyo Bay is definitely on my TBR for 2024, given the above recommendation.
But I don't yet have a plan for my reading on nuclear subs or Cold War era submarine operations. May have to wait to see what strikes the mood when my attention pivots! Am certainly open to suggestions!!
