Folio Focus Group

Just received an email from Folio inviting me to attend a focus group in London next month.

Seems there’s only a few slots so no idea if I’ll be selected but has anyone ever done one of these before? What was it like?

No idea, but if I bribe you very heavily... (imagine up to five pounds) could you recommend all of the possible future publications that I'd like to see?

>1 cyber_naut: I too received the invite, and have signed up. Whether I go depends, obviously, on whether I’m actually invited, and where exactly the venue is. The message only says ‘London’ as far as I can tell.

I don’t recall this type of event before, but I’ll be happy to go if I’m one if the 25 lucky ones.

>3 MisterTrister: I assumed their office near Tower Bridge but I guess they might do it elsewhere.

>2 DukeOfOmnium: Certainly, if that’s on the agenda!

If you get a chance to talk about product quality, that would be appreciated.

I hope it's a serious feedback focus group and not disguised influencer free advertising bait. They need some voices to pull them back from fully committing to the booktok realm.

>6 A.Godhelm: Seems promising if they mean what they say.

“We want to hear your views on everything Folio does – from our books to marketing and customer service. This is your chance to tell us what you think.”

Only 25 spots but would be great if at least one FSD-er is selected.

Is this something new for them?
I also received the invite, however I do not live in the UK and as they neither state if they will pay for flights and board nor mention internet ways to connect, I assume my invitation was in error.
However if anyone from this group of present and past Folio Society Devotees ends up to be one of the 25, I suggest that we conduct here a serious discussion of issues and points to be raised.

I expect this will be the equivalent to the Synod on Synodality currently being excruciatingly exacted upon the Church.

Pre-set agenda and outcomes, but spun as the Peoples' Vote.

I was emailed today to say I’ve been selected, and will be at this focus group next month.

>10 MisterTrister: Congratulations. Nice to know someone from FSD is represented on this panel.

>10 MisterTrister:

I'm sure you'll let us know how it goes.

>12 folio_books:
Yes, certainly will. Although I’m relatively new to this forum I’ve been a Folio customer for some years and used to be quite active in the main Facebook group until I recently left social media.

Although my disposition to FS is generally favourable there are issues I’ll be looking to raise, and I am aware of some of the more contentious topics (such as overseas pricing, production quality and genre choices) that - while they may not directly affect me - I can endeavour to make sure are covered.

>13 MisterTrister: Maybe you could mention that you're a member of this group, and see how closely they follow the discussions here. And, of course, how seriously they take them.

>14 coynedj:
An excellent suggestion. I’ve often wondered that myself!

I can’t imagine any serious business not wanting to gather feedback, information and ideas that are offered so freely, and from such an obviously engaged audience, but I’ll be interested to know how extensive and purposeful their awareness is.

If I had one (realistic) request it’d be that they release the full production details and pricing of LEs before the release.

From a strictly business perspective I understand why they don’t do this: encourages FOMO, helps counteract system 2 thinking, etc. But it’s pretty cynical in my opinion.

Yeah, the overseas pricing stinks. Just had email re LOTR.

£165 UK

but £190 Australia + £38 delivery.

It seems the mark up is nothing more than a gouge. What other reason can they give?

>17 LesMiserables:
The mark up for Australia is now mostly the compulsory 10% GST that the FS must collect.

>18 wcarter: Yeah, you guys are lucky -- in the USA, we're paying the tax on top of the mark-up.

>10 MisterTrister: Congratulations! Hope you have a good time!

>17 LesMiserables: Others have discussed the subsidized shipping costs, as well as the higher chances of packages becoming damaged and needing to be replaced.

>17 LesMiserables:

Folio are required to collect 10% GST for sales to Australian customers (15% for NZ). The ROW pricing includes this tax that they remit to the respective government authorities. The Australian price is a little high
and the NZ price is bang on the same as the UK price (with the tax added).

It would make more sense to just charge each country’s tax at checkout. I assume there are infrastructural reasons they just go with an average ROW price that covers everyone from 5% to 25% tax.

>18 wcarter: >22 stubedoo: Yes, I appreciate they collect for the ATO, which is 10%, but seems another discretionary 5% is appendages.

>21 What_What: Fair enough. Debatable I would say, whether a box shipped to Australia has any more chance of getting clattered, than one which makes it way through parcel routes in the UK.

One thing I'm fairly certain would happen if Rachel from Accounts removes the VAT exemption from books, the UK prices would rise by 20% AND they would then use that elevated price as the ROW price + mark up.

>22 stubedoo:

"It would make more sense to just charge each country’s tax at checkout."

That's the way they used to do it. With Germany having a tax of 7% on books, I now pay a lot more than I should have to. It's also frustrating that I now have to pay expensive express shipping, though there I assume it's connected to the way the shipping companies take care of the tax issue for FS, so I assume there's at least a reason I can accept. Moving from charging the actual tax to a much higher rate is really not acceptable to me.

Agree that the price differences between regions be addressed. To me the most fair system is a set price for the book and then a choice of what company you wish to deliver the book(s) and at what speed. Country differences in taxes, VAT and other possible fees should either be charged by Folio when ordered or left out to be collect in the delivery country. In my country we also pay a 7% tax on books and then 25% VAT on the total cost of the shipment, including shipment cost and tax. There is no value point that is not taxed. The company in charge of delivery e.g. DHL, Fedex, the postal service calculate and ask for payment before delivery is initiated. So in my case if a ROW price is 20% higher that leads to a substantial rise in total cost for me as the tax and VAT is added irrespective of what fees Folio might or might not pay to my country. The exemption appears to be Amazon. They are actually quite fair. If I purchase from their UK store, the UK VAT and taxes are removed, my countries fees and VAT added and upon arrival here delivered to me straight by the same companies (DHL, Fedex etc) without extra cost. I regularly also receive money paid back if they overcalculated the fees, though I have never been charged if they undercalculated. If amazon can do this other companies ought to be able to do this as well as this must be an automated process.

>25 2261:

They can’t just leave it for Fedex to collect for some countries. They are legally required to collect at source for at least Au and NZ.

>6 A.Godhelm: "They need some voices to pull them back from fully committing to the booktok realm."

You’ve nailed it. They’ve gone all-in on this kidult vibe lately, and it’s completely turned me off. The Facebook group feels like a nonstop immaturity fest, and yet Folio Society seems happy to lean into that exact tone. It’s a shame - they’re losing what made them special.

>27 LondonLawyer: "The Facebook group feels like a nonstop immaturity fest"

I've not noticed that at all on the "Fans of the Folio Society" group. Or are talking about a different group (some kind of "official" one)?

>28 stubedoo: For the past year or so I have felt that Folio Society are experiencing a sort of identity crisis with no clear end in sight.

Their recent LE offerings smack of LitJoy or Illumicrate with juvenile gimmickry, at least in the design/looks department.

Their LE pricing, compared to the crop of recent entrants of fine-letterpress books or Suntup, is simply horrendous with far less bang for the buck that the likes of Conversation Tree Press, Lyra's Books, Arete's Editions, Suntup or the like have to offer.

For me, it was the first sale in years when I did not purchase anything. I will not complain about the Folio shipping costs, because $30 shipping cap for international shipping is quite reasonable; however, the rest of the world price difference applicable to the US has me searching for every title of interest in the secondary markets, which have so much to offer.

Their recent fire sale made me think that Folio may be experiencing cash crunch. They went all in on certain genres, design gimmicks and pricing brackets and considering overall slowdown in book-buying from the pandemic-induced frenzy paired with costs of living running amok, I would not be surprised if Folio's day of reckoning is around the corner. I do not mean bankruptcy, but rather a decline in sales paired with limited cash flow. I sincerely hope I am wrong on that count...

>29 EPsonNY:
They actually made a record profit last year.

>30 wcarter: Granted, but accounting profit it is. In uncertain times, cash on hand is what matters most. If Folio has Rob Roy II or 1984 part deux or similar 'hits' in the works that may end up in the 50% sale financial outlook may change very quickly...

>29 EPsonNY: Folio had record sales and profits last year (including cash on hand) and have been on a steady upwards trend the past number of years. I do understand the disappointment with the limited edition offerings, but they mostly sell out, and their standard editions remain very attractive products, imo. At the end of the day, they've successfully pivoted to a new generation of readers, which is reflected in their changing product offerings.

>29 EPsonNY:

The thing is, we can look at things like 1984 as being a failure because they only shifted half of them at full price, but I guarantee they are still profitable at half price (and the full-price ones will be very profitable). Only Folio knows where the sweet spot of cost/quality/ease of selling sits. But if they can shift a few hundred units of a paper-bound book in a box for £500, that's pretty solid for them. How long people will continue to be willing to pay that much in the kind of numbers needed is anyone's guess (I won't personally, but plenty clearly will -- look at the Shirley Jackson this week. A perfectly mediocre standard edition in a box for £250 sold out in a few hours).

Even Beowulf sold 2/3rds at full price and that is kind of regarded as a failure in the collecting community. I imagine it was financially very successful (and personally I love it).

I do wonder how much sales victory/quality disaster situations like The Hobbit LE will cost them (both in terms of with this specific release, but also in terms of wariness of throwing hundreds of pounds at Folio when they seem to have problems delivering a decent product). Customer service has a good reputation for resolving things (be it refund/return or replacement), but there is a point where the actual product is simply not good enough to be papered over by good CS.

>34 Ragnaroekk:

Absolutely. Traditional publishers sell the retailer for less than 50% of RRP (in the old days, it used to be closer to 70%, but Amazon changed all that and book quality dropped to accomodate the squeezed pricing). So the publisher is still making money (and a decent amount) selling the book into the retail channel for half price. If you go to the HarperCollins UK retail website, you can get 30% off any day of the week, 50% off on their monthly sales (but there is actually a code that works all the time for 50% off). I'd be surprised if Folio's production costs were more than 30% of normal retail, because it would make them an anomaly.

>35 stubedoo: I’m no accountant but production costs are exactly 30% according to Folio’s most recent annual accounts.

>36 cyber_naut: I was about to say - someone could just check their statements for their gross profit margin, and have a definitive answer for their average gross profit.

>32 HonorWulf: Revenue = volume x quantity (profit comes after the costs). With quite a few attractive titles - Stephen Kings and the like - plus LE big hitters (higher profit margins than SE) gone in the last 50% sale, Folio may have to go on a printing spree to reprint some of the more saleable SEs and to heavily invest in new LEs. This will inevitably carry much higher costs and face mounting challenges in terms of demand and political landscape (tariffs etc.).

Selling out 250 copies (very low limitation) of a 250GBP volume and assuming 150GBP profit per volume yields 37500GBP profit for the lot, which does not get far these days a company the size of Folio. They will need dozens or tens of sellouts like that this year.

Setting the limitation has become yet another problem for them and appears to be an ongoing experiment... Canticle sold out 750 and could have sold out 1200 as there is no competing offering out there at the moment. 1984 should have sold out 1200, but could not shift 600 at full price as it alienated a lot of buyers with its design choices and value for the money.

250 copies seems like a very conservative choice, especially for a very popular author and title. If the production value is so mediocre indeed; the question is, how many of such mediocre eggs, an average teenage or young adult target consumer will buy from Folio rather than LitJoy, Illumicrate, or fine presses as price-wise they seem to exist in the same universe these days...

50% sale is great from our consumer standpoint. It may also be a sign of bold management move to clear out whatever has sat too long on the shelves. However; it may also indicate a need to generate immediate cash. Also, a real danger is that in the future, consumers may think twice or thrice before buying at full price or with a 10%off/10GBP-20USD birthday voucher first when even the 'cream of the crop' titles by Stephen King or recent unsold LEs get a 50% ax to their asking prices...

>38 EPsonNY: In 2024, gross income was up to 15.55M (from 13.374M), gross profit was up to 10.855M (from 9.556M) and net profit doubled to 1.461M (from 0.776M), so they've been winning across the board. But at the end of the day, the limited editions are a small part of their business. They produce six to nine a year and account for less then 20% of their sales. Their bread and butter are the 40+ standard editions that they produce each year, which routinely sell-out and re-stock. And the winter/summer sales aren't anything new -- they've been doing them for as long as I can remember. Can they do better? For sure -- quality control (especially on the LE's) has been an issue, and I hope they begin to explore decentralized shipping/warehousing strategies to lower their distribution costs (nearly 1/3rd of their gross income).

>39 HonorWulf: Folio is clearly subsidizing their shipping to the rest of the world or to put it differently, they build in part of it into the book price. $30 max cap on US shipping is insufficient for orders of 4+ individual books and certainly not for large set. Folio has already taken first step of separating LEs for shipping and it would not surprise me if they do not separate multi-volume sets or at the very least introduce a surcharge to offset pricier shipping.

I prefer honest approach to Amazon-like strategies that have corrupted many an industry. Shipping and handling is not free nor cheap and hiding it partially behind book prices shields people from the actual cost and what is more it makes folks angry at considerable price hikes that may include a big chunk of skyrocketing shipping and handling costs.

Sales have always been there, but 50% off rather than more common 10/20/25/3040% off staggered sale is considered a fire sale and meant to clear out the inventory. Motivation behind such move may vary and hopefully it is not a cash crunch.

I doubt Folio will ever decentralize their warehousing. Opening a fully bonded warehouse in the US these days may turn out prohibitively expensive. Additionally, US customer profile may be much different from the one of a UK customer, continental Europe customer or an Australian customer, which would involve stocking the aforementioned warehouse with the right mix of titles. Who would bear the cost of that? Would an Italian printer ship a quarter of each order to four different warehouses directly or first to Folio for them to decide the exact distribution? Either way, the final cost may turn out to be similar. International clientele in a global economy may make certain costs unavoidable. All they can do is to manage them efficiently...

>40 EPsonNY: I definitely agree on more transparent pricing. Should be universal pricing, with the real shipping amounts and tax clearly spelled out. It may be psychologically better in the short-term to do it the way they're doing it, but, in the long-term, the price hikes are jarring to even the most steadfast customer.

>38 EPsonNY: If they increase the number of copies produced for LEs such as Canticle, how will they justify the price?

>38 EPsonNY: This topic has surfaced many times over the past several years since the end of the membership model. Seasonal sales never include all titles and it’s always a gamble whether to wait for a sale or see a title go oop. As we also know, given the rapid price rises the sales prices often match or even exceed launch prices. At this point, I’m no longer concerned about the bottom line in the way it definitely was a while back, but am increasingly disappointed by the declining quality of the products themselves as prices reach ever higher, which in the long term can kill a business as customers turn elsewhere.

>42 foliolibrary: If they sell out 750 copies in a few hours rather than in days, weeks or months, likely conclusion is that they underestimated demand and limitation was way too low, hence my 1200 number. This may prove a missed opportunity should they choose not to offer SE in the next few months. Time is of essence as other publishers see the sellout as an opportunity and may publish their own in the meantime stealing Folio's thunder...

>43 cwl: Seasonal sales with low to moderate discounts paired with discounted/free shipping etc. are OK when your goal is to clear out the dusty merchandise or stinky eggs that have not sold for a while. When you decide to put Stephen Kings etc. and your remaining LE stock on the 50% chopping block, it goes a bit beyond an ordinary seasonal sale...

I have seen multiple quality issues come up over time especially with Tolkien's LEs. I assume these got addressed with the printer who we may assume shouldered most if not all of the financial responsibility. Insurance probably played no role as it was clearly not shipping damage but rather shoddy work by the binder paired with possibly poor choice of materials...

I am always worried about my bottom line :D; therefore, I have not purchased any LEs directly from Folio as I consider them vastly overpriced for the production value on offer. Their SEs cost in some cases less than 20% of their LE equivalent with the same number of illustrations etc. missing only a fancy enclosure and other gimmicks. As I read my Folios, I am not interested in having a free mini towel gradually fading away on my bookshelf or a set of stickers with glue slowly drying up over time to eventually become completely useless...

>44 EPsonNY: The limited number of copies creates the FOMO that helps sell out the item. If people are not so worried about the item selling out, they might think twice about the value of the item on offer and it wouldn't sell out so fast. The mark up in price is justified by the scarcity and if you take some of that scarcity away, I'm not confident those 750 copies would sell nearly as quickly.

>45 foliolibrary: It is not to take it away but rather to milk it. Public desire to a beautiful edition of Canticle and FOMO were enormous and LE quite handsome with no other publisher nor SE to compete with. It was one of those moments where a lot of folks saw an exquisite production value with no competing alternative and overlooked the price, which is why I believe another 450 copies would have likely sold withing days or weeks especially if no SE is in the works.

Once again, the half-price LE sale was heavily debated the first time it happened. It’s happened many times since and the FS is still making money on every book sold, which in many cases would otherwise continue to sit in inventory.
To put an end to the assumptions and arguments, perhaps you could write to the FS marketing and management and offer your suggestions and post their response? They might even offer you a position if they like what they hear.

A few quick reflections on the focus group, which happened earlier this evening. Just over an hour’s conversation, split into two groups, covering what Folio could do better, what suggestions we had (not just titles, but plenty of these were proposed!), why we like Folio books, and a bit about our own history as customers/members.
The group was very male-dominated, though they did say they tried to achieve a balance with the invites. In my group there was a good range of newer and more long-standing customers, and most had purchased LEs.
A couple of upcoming titles I noticed were an SE of Life of Pi, and (I think) an LE of It. Perdido Street Station will be around £425 when released next week.
I did ask the question about overseas pricing, and they said they were aware of the strong feelings on this. Interestingly, although this was the first UK focus group, apparently they have held two previously, including one in (I think) New York. I imagine this question will have been raised there too. Another member of today’s group commented that FS books are now around 30% cheaper since moving from the USA to the UK.
Other topics which I may post more on included communication around new releases, the quality of LEs v SEs, the unpredictability of series completion, the balance between older and newer titles, the possibility of publishing unpublished authors, the purchase and up-pricing of LEs by bookshops, and the popularity of the comic-based titles.
Overall I really enjoyed it, and felt a bit like a kid in a candy store while browsing their shelves. No, there were no free samples(!) though they said they would be sending us a gift voucher, which was very good of them.
They indicated these focus groups were proving very useful to them so they may well hold more in future. I suggested some other kinds of in-person events, such as a readers’ day, might be nice, though obviously location-biased.

If the LE of It is going to be signed by the author, that’ll rival the website’s performance during the LOTR trilogy launch. Won’t even be able to load the page I expect.

>49 What_What: that's right, that would overload Folio's site, no doubt. And they could easily charge 600 pounds for 'It' (pun intended), if not more.

Other upcoming titles I noticed: Circe, Klara and the Sun, Giovanni's Room, Neuromancer, LE Austen (all six).

>51 gmacaree: I was expecting one Austen title for the LE. Wow, all six. That will be pricey.

>52 assemblyman: It looked like a interesting set but they were clear that bindings/materials hadn't been finalised yet so I can't give any further info!

>51 gmacaree: Thanks for sharing. The Neuromancer LE page has been updated to indicate a Standard Edition is on the way.

>51 gmacaree: Klara and the Sun and Neuromancer are automatic buys -- glad to hear!

Thanks for sharing! Was there any mention of a Perdido SE?

Happy to hear about Klara and the Sun.

>51 gmacaree: Ishiguro's Klara and the Sun? Absolutely! I do almost wish they would revisit, if not just in binding, then entirely new editions of The Remains of the Day and Never Let Me Go, the latter of which has just seen the release of a 20th anniversary edition.

The LE Austen would also be swell depending on design, but I am kidding myself that my appreciation of it would allow me to acquire it.

Edit: Forgot about the Circe, I assume it'll have Julie Dillon as the illustrator per The Song of Achilles so a pass alas. Her style is a little too etiolated or anaemic for me.

>55 HonorWulf: I'm intrigued by the same two - we'll have to see the production and price first, of course. Already having the old Austen set, and finding it quite satisfactory for my needs, I don't see myself buying the new set. I read Circe a while back and thought that while it was a fine book, it wasn't extraordinary, and I don't need an FS-quality edition.

>56 RRCBS: There may have been, but I didn't ask, nor did I overhear any such talk.

>59 coynedj: The design of both looked great to me, at least without handling. They've used a transluscent blue slipcase for Neuromancer which I found quite handsome.

>51 gmacaree: I actually gasped out loud when I read "LE Austen (all six)". Thank you!

EDIT: This is probably a long shot, but was there any information on whether the Austen LE would use new or existing illustrations?

>60 gmacaree: Oh! So Perspex/Acrylic/Lucite etc for Neuromancer? How very No Reply Press of them.

And the Klara and the Sun looked swell you say? Do you recall the cover's colour palette?

>62 FitzJames: Suntup’s 1984 was in an acrylic case five years ago, years before the NRP books. So you could say the NRP’s slipcases were rather Suntup-like.

>63 What_What: An indeed? Perfectly fair then, Suntup being very much outside my ken. Rather an interesting design step for Folio all the same: this is to be a standard, isn't it? Seems a mite more de luxe than the de luxe.

Tho' uncoloured, one could also say how very Penguin-like of Suntup, as Penguin Classics' 60th anniversary 'Penguin Designer Classics' employed acrylic slipcases back in 2006, following them up in turn with Puffin's 70th anniversary 'Puffin Designer Classics' in 2010.

>27 LondonLawyer: That's a pity, but completely in tune with what they do. It's time like these that I'm happy not to have any antisocial media.

>48 MisterTrister: They have been aware of the strong feelings of overseas pricing for almost 2 decades, but now that they have upset the larger US customers, they might actually do something about it, although that's probably wishful thinking. As others have said, it cannot be difficult to have one price in GBP.

>65 LesMiserables: I'm afraid of what the Trump tariffs might mean for FS costs here in the U.S., but I haven't looked into whether direct consumers of small-ticket items have to pay, or how that would work. But, it might put an end to my buying directly from FS, if I have to pay the usual U.S. upcharge plus another 10%. Or whatever number he decides to change it to from day to day.

>66 coynedj: Printed books are exempt from the tariffs, fortunately!

>66 coynedj: I see. Australians have to pay the equivalent on what they rob us through GST which Folio needs to add to the book due to the Australian Government's fiscal fiascos.

Despite this, one price to rule them all, in GBP, then tweaked according to shipping destination, would at least be better than the current price gouge.

>67 HonorWulf: Not for Australia unfortunately.

>68 LesMiserables: Perhaps after we annex Greenland, we can turn the gaze down under.

>69 HonorWulf: Ha ha. I would take the current US administration anyday over our sorry incumbents in Canberra.

>70 LesMiserables: Be careful what you wish for.

>71 coynedj: I am doing so!

>68 LesMiserables: When Folio started using FEDEX (whose service in my country is severely lacking) a few years ago I set up a UK Folio account associated with a forward shipping company address in the UK. I can then choose the shipping company of my preference and speed of delivery from the company.
After the recent Folio price changes this has actually worked in my favour as the shipping cost and therefore total cost is lower (in my country I pay taxes, handling fees, VAT based on the total cost including shipping fees). In addition, the forwarding company can hold packages and merge different orders into one shipment, again leading to lower costs to me. The repacking is at least of the same quality as the packages from folio to date. I do not have a UK credit card so that is not necessary for this to work. This is not an advertisement, so I will not mention the company I use and though I have not tried other forwarding companies, I am quite sure that they offer similar deals. I only mention this as an alternative to the current Folio way of doing business. Certainly, this leads to a longer time for the books to reach me, but in most cases that does not matter.

>73 2261: Thanks for the heads up.

>73 2261:

The one problem I see is that more and more FS titles arrive defective. How are replacements handled then?

Bought from Folio so returned to Folio, but I assume at my cost for shipping. To date not had to do. Was concerned when I read about the Hobbit issues, but mine was fine. By the way, Folio is aware of this as I discussed this with them beforehand. Was setup after FedEx claimed that they had delivered books worth about 400 pounds that never reached me. In my country packages are not left outside so most likely reason for this was that it was out for delivery, no one home, returned to and lost at FedEx. No reimbursement as marked as delivered. After this and some other similar happenings dislike using FedEx and after discussing this with Folio who declined shipping to me with other companies this was the solution. Should note that FedEx delivers to a local company that takes care of local costs and final delivery, so does not reflect on FedEx elsewhere.

>76 2261:

That's really about how that company handled your parcels. No wonder you set this up instead. One would think that some proof of delivery would be needed, like a signature or photo.

>76 2261:

Edit: Sorry, didn't realise you were doing package forwarding. Yep, the downside of that is shipping costs for replacements in both directions would be on you. It's the main reason I haven't done it. Too many defective books from Folio for it to be viable.

>77 SF-72: I live in Iceland. Most of the international shipping companies (I believe though DHL might be an exception) work with local companies that sometimes forward parcels between each other. It is rare when they deliver to your home that they ask for signatures (apart from DHL), never photos as packages are not left outside (most likely our weather limits that) but increasingly packages are not delivered directly to homes but special storage boxes or shops, so proof of delivery is improving.