Female characters-what is your view

I am interested in what people think about the way female characters are portrayed in Scifi. One of the reasons I enjoy Scifi is that female characters are usually strong, independant and basically their gender is a non-issue with other characters. What do others think?

You must be reading only the very very newest stuff. :)

I'm against them!

Only kidding, of course. I agree with LolaWalser to a certain extent, but there have been notable exceptions. I don't recall any particularly good examples from science fiction, but for what it's worth, Lois Lane used to be at least twice as fierce and resourceful as she is these days.

It really depends on the authors that you read, but I do agree that in modern science fiction you will often find characters of the like described in the OP.

Podkayne of Mars was the first female lead character I remember reading and in Starship Troopers Heinlein explained that only females had the quick reflexes to pilot the starships and landers. The female characters were strong and independent but their gender was an issue.

I can agree that more modern science fiction books do include strong or at the very least reasonably strong female characters. In every sci fi book that I've read, women (be they strong or weak) seem to add a more emotional element to a story. This is certainly evident in the Star Trek Terok Nor series, where there are several female (both Bajoran and Cardassian) who could be considered strong, but can show weakness in just the next sentence. It all comes down to how the author portrays the characters. I personally enjoy reading about women who can find it within themselves to be strong even in difficult times.

Is gender really a non-issue? It depends on the plot of the story, really. If you're flying a starship in to the final frontier, it may not matter. If you're flying that ship in to the final frontier and encounter a race that can force the characters to draw on their will power or guile, then gender may matter, but what is more important than gender in any story is the character.

Often in science fiction, it's the author's job to put the characters in a situation and figure out how to get out of the situation (if possible). In The Fuzzy Papers, would Holloway have handled first contact with the Gashta has he been a woman? While he showed quite a bit of compassion towards them, would he have shown more had he been female?

#2 Obviously you haven't read James H. Schmitz. He had strong female characters in the '60s and '70s. Perhaps you should look at this essay:
http://24.98.103.119:8080/Schmitz/Neutral_heroine.htm

#7

I guess that strong female characters started appearing some time in the mid 60s, more or less around the same time as the new-wave, and an influx of female writers.

I started reading Andre Norton before she had female POV characters. It was the mid 60s when I noticed the first one in Ordeal in Otherwhere. Norton immediately followed this with her first Witch World book with a female POV, one of my favorites Year of the Unicorn. I didn't discover the Telzey Amberdon and Trigger Argee stories until they were collected into paperbacks in the late 70s, early 80s, but I did find my favorite Schmitz The Demon Breed published in 1968, where a female scientist kicks alien butt bigtime! Since then, there are many stories with strong female characters. However, I must say, since the rise of the romance/sf hybrid and paranormal romance subgenres, I see a lot less character development and more stereotypical characterization than before.

rgurskey, no, I've never even heard of Schmitz (good name though, that was my dear Italo Svevo's REAL last name!)

I haven't read much sf to begin with, not recently (and none of the post-early nineties stuff). However, what I did read makes it easily one of the historically most misogynistic/sexist modern genres. It's nice to see that someone like Jazzycat can find it empowering to women, but that wasn't the case for most of its history.

Classic SF, if it contains women at all, can't see women other than housewives and love interest material--at best they become housewives in space.

It's not that this attitude is often the focus and the point of a book, it's the million scattered little things, from characterisations to universally held opinions etc. And these things are encountered everywhere. I recently reread The Midwich cuckoos, which is excellent--and also provides a great snapshot of the "image" of the English housewife of the time. John Brunner's Stand on Zanzibar is also very good, with lots of novelty (I think it was published in early seventies?), but the women are still treated like merch.

Also recently, I read some early Asimov's stories and the women are just the stereotypical dumb nagging wives and concerned fiancees.

And what was the other one... Oh yes, Ringworld. The lucky girl who goes crazy over the guy who could be her great-grandpa (but doesn't look his age). Classic wishful thinking. I do it all the time. There are no other women in the book. Oh wait! Yes, one--the galactic whore or something.

And yes, I know, 'twere the times, 'twas the philosophy, and one can still get some fun from these books, although I'll often while reading think of the past they came from and shudder.

#9

Doesn't a lot of SF now include females as simply love interests? Yes, females are strong, smart, and can do whatever males can do, but they are still there because the male characters tend to want to have sex, often in pornographically detailed ways.

Or I could just be being cynical.

I thought Bester's females were quite good for their time, considering that female rights was not even an issue back then. In The Stars My Destination we had a female criminal who taught the protagonist, and the rich woman who had no moral qualms about killing other people. They are certainly not the most flattering or realistic portrayal of women, but surely this is better than the domestic housewife stereotype?

And criticising SF for the worst portrayals of women is to forget the romance genre, particularly classic novels. If I took these novels as any guide, all women simply seek to marry good-looking men with a lot of money.

Oh, I'd never compare SF to classic literature. Character treatment is usually very different, both for men and women--at least, women are often far more realistic and complex, however limited their sphere of action.

Also, I don't think of any classic novels as "romance", especially not writers like Austen or Eliot, if that's what you have in mind. As for portraying women as simply seeking to marry--well, there weren't that many other options, were there? The nursery or the nunnery.

Bester--yes, his girls are more fun (I don't recall that much about The demolished man, though.) But those are negligibly few examples. Besides, part of my point is that you get the echo of the times whatever the author's own attitude and intention. For instance, in The Midwich Cuckoos, the daughter of the main character is a sympathetic figure, attractive and smart, but the sexist atmosphere and attitudes of the times suffuses the book nevertheless. In Brunner's book, the head of the Scary Corporation is an old woman--but first, as a character she's a cipher (she has the money, and owns the corp., but it's men who have the brains and run it), and the overall attitude to women in that society, to all the other women in the book, is still one of superiority and domination.

Don't get me wrong--I don't count how many women there are in a book before I start reading. It would be possible to write "feminist" stories without having any female characters at all, if only one could imagine a truly free, egalitarian society, not just in legal fact, but in opinion. Otoh, clearly you can have women running the whole show and still have them be insignificant morons. Nor am I for some anachronistic constructive criticism of earlier writers, "they OUGHT to have written..., they OUGHT to have thought... etc." No--just pointing out what they DID write, what they DID think, along with most their contemporaries, to be sure.

Joanna Russ, who would be part of the late new wave?, is the earliest writer who comes to my mind w/ strong female leads, but that would be late 60s at the earliest. Actually L'Engle's "A Wrinkle in Time" ~ 1960 might qualify.
One of my favorite SF writers is Melissa Scott, once she got to Dreamships (1992) and Burning Bright. I know many readers feel like she's pushes her agenda(s) to vigorously in her novels...but i've felt like she usually does a terrific job of world creation built around characters, often women, who'd be considered gender outsiders in current American society. But, while gender roles/behavior are important in her books, they're no more important than her creation of artistic/social/religious/technological class structures and very human beings who populate them. I can't say i'm anywhere near as fond of her fantasies. I also wouldn't start with "Trouble and her Friends." The two i reread the most are Night Sky Mine and Dreaming Metal.

#11

It still holds true to some extent today. Look at all of the crappy Virginia Andrew novels, for example...

I guess I'm lucky that some of my favourite authors seem to have no problem in portraying strong female characters: Alastair Reynolds, Peter Hamilton and Peter David.

Lolawalser, I have to agree with most of what you say. I think perhaps you may have one of the clearest viewpoints as you have not been mired in decades of SF reading.

First I might ask: define strong. Are we talking complex..substantial? Are we talking about she-who-wields-power in the story?

Putting a woman in a lead role doesn't necessarily make for a strong character - it's all the "million shattered little things" (as lola puts it). But, I suppose, many authors may have put in what they imagined to be strong women characters but that would depend on their definition , doesn't it?

I certainly don't like the assumption that if one puts a woman in a lead role or gives one a gun, she's a strong female character.

Jack McDevitt uses strong female characters, particularly in his series about Priscilla Hutchins. Priscilla Hutchins, better known as "Hutch", is an interstellar pilot who is not only a major character, but a strong leading character.

Wow! looks like this has developed into an interesting discussion.
I'm not a scifi purist or anything, and do read a fairly wide range of scfi and fantasy, older and newer., though the earlier poster was right too say, I am drawn to the newer stuff, when it comes to strong female roles.

What do I mean by strong? well any of the things mentioned by "Avaland". It could be in power, has a gun or just the fact she is not just a love/sex interest or damsel in distress.

and the comment about gender not being an issue, well I mean in for example if a starship pilot is female and has male subordinates-they don't have a problem having a female boss-or even think it. there seems to be a lot like that. Star trek seems to be an example of that., or various Anne Mccaffery Novels.Perhaps I should have a think and list some of the books I am thinking of.

Also while they will have various struggles to get where they are, it is not ness because they are female.

And as I am a fan of action- I do enjoy stories where the female kicks butt, ridiculous as they sometimes are. Men have been doing it for years, why not women?

Rojse says

"Doesn't a lot of SF now include females as simply love interests? Yes, females are strong, smart, and can do whatever males can do, but they are still there because the male characters tend to want to have sex, often in pornographically detailed ways."

Hasn't it always? Though not all of the stuff I've read. I could say that about many of the male characters too. I have read some where it is the female who is the one using the male, so it gfoes both ways.

it may be the case, but perhaps I'm naive but I haven't read it that way, unless it goes on about all the bits of the female body and what he's going to do to her to satisfy himself or something..

I just remembered some of my fave boos from childhood, with good female characters. those here may not recognize them unless from NZ, but there where all written by Maurice Gee.
the halfmen of o series
under the mountain and
the world around the corner

I seem to have vague memories of many children's books written with females in non-traditional roles..
but maybe i'm remembering with rose tinted lenses.

anyone have these sort of memories?

#7 andyl sayz,

"I guess that strong female characters started appearing some time in the mid 60s, more or less around the same time as the new-wave, and an influx of female writers."

One word: Zeitgeist!

What about ...And all the stars a Stage?

McCaffrey has seemingly strong women, but by the end they invariably have a man who becomes the leader, regardless of the fact that she's the one that fixed the problem. Even the Debut Restoree once she's out of there she collapses into his arms and he takes over.

Haha! My first response would be..."they exist?"

It's not a matter of liking them anymore than I have to like or think about the existence of male science fiction characters, thank you very much.

Where are the people who grew up with Moon and LeGuin and McCaffrey and Lackey and, for heaven's sake, Bradley?!?

Does no one remember them?

I could rattle off so many, but a few of my favorites:

Esmay and Herris Serrano, the exemplar for any trash-talkin' space-fleet-wielding Army brats from Elizabeth Moon's books (still my favorite space army books.)

Lillith from Lillith's Brood by Octavia Butler. (buahaha!)

Trillian from Hitchhiker (ok, bad example, but still.)

Mara Jade!

Nell from the Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson.

I prefer a complex, three-dimensional character not based on stereotypes whose strength/power resides somewhere within her rather in the gun/superpower/magic wand she holds. I think it's rare in SF generally, which, after all, is touted to be a literature of ideas.

I think Octavia Butler created some great, strong women characters. The character of Shori in The Fledgling fits my requirements well, although one might argue that the book is more of a vampire story with SF trappings than straightforward SF.

I think Alldera (?) in Suzy McKee Charnas's Holdfast Chronicles is another good example. For those of you who are unfamiliar, it is a post-ecological apocalyptic feminist tale told over the course of four books beginning with Walk to the End of the World.

But I still agree with you, jazzycat, it's nice to see women kicking some ass in action & adventure stories.

In Isaac Asimov and Robert Silverberg's novelization of Nightfall, there were a few pretty good female characters. There is a very smart archaologist with little interest in romance (although she does serve as a love interest for one of the male characters, she is also an important part of the plot). While she isn't fleshed out as well as she could be, none of the characters really are, as the story is about the society rather than the individuals.

Tabitha Jute in Take Back Plenty.
Anna Louise Bach in various stories by John Varley.
Ash in Ash: A Secret History.
Altair Jones in Angel with the Sword.
Dorthy Yoshida in Four Hundred Billion Stars.
Otto in Kairos.
Baroness Ceaucescu in A Princess of Roumania and its sequels.
The two Rosies in Aegypt and its sequels.

These are some of the female characters in sf and fantasy I find memorable.

re: #23:

Suzy Mckee Charnas is not for wimps, dude; props.

>25 iansales: Ah, but memorable is not necessarily strong or even credible:-)

Sheri Tepper's Gibbon's Decline and Fall is only one example of a strong collection of female characters in her works.

I appreciate strong individual characters, but I'm more interested in what Gene mentioned: "Zeitgeist", social atmosphere, general opinion--what's it like now, what it was like then, how it changes, how it may yet change...

I don't care when women, to be noticeable and respected, have to be super-geniuses, super-beautiful, educated, capable etc. I want to see an average Joelle command the same matter-of-fact basic respect and resources that an average Joe gets and, you know, naturally, without evoking a freak show (the entire sex is just cattle, but this one girl is an independent Amazon goddess), or affirmative action on the author's part.

That said, I am STILL mad Rowling didn't make Harry a girl. :) Although, yes, I wonder whether we'd know about the books today if she had.

> 27 I did mean memorable as in "memorably strong, realistic and well-written". I mean, Mistra Lanett in van Vogt's Undercover Aliens is a memorable female character - but she's fairly typical for a female character written by a male writer of that period. And don't get me started on Temple Bells in EE 'Doc' Smith's Masters of Space...

Or do you disagree with some of my choices?

How about Babel 17, Samuel Delany? Published in the mid-sixties, the main character was a female language translator - extremely intelligent, able to pilot spacecraft, and able to discuss and solve complex problems.

#29
How often do we read about Joe Average in SF? Honestly? We want Joe Special, someone who is special and unique and does stuff, whether it be solving difficult science problems, accomplishing an amazing feat, or involved in an amazing event. And this is more plausible when an unaverage person does them. I rarely want to read about Joe Average, unless Joe Average does unaverage things. The same thing applies to women - I don't want to see Joelle Average unless she does unaverage things.

My favorite storyline involves Joe or Joelle Average thrust into extraordinary situations and how they rise or sink depending on their internal strengths and weaknesses. Whether this is sci-fi or fantasy or just a well told story with three dimensional characters and believable situations is of secondary importance. A well-drawn character, male, female, or somewhere in-between trumps a cartoon in any genre (except, of course, in cartoons).

Again I agree with Gene and #31, I think you're missing my point. I was talking about equal treatment of men and women, not one or the other kind of stories--superpeople vs. averages. What I'm saying is that insistence on the existence of strong individuals often (usually, when it comes to those traditionally discriminated against, like women and non-whites) does nothing to diminish the negative attitudes toward the entire category they belong to, and the problems arising from this. Elizabeth I was a strong "character", but she was so nevertheless on the background of societal female inferiority.

Another example--okay, comics first came to mind, not SF novels--Red Sonya and Belit in Conan the Barbarian (I'm thinking of the late seventies stuff, which is the last I read) are "strong", but mainly, in Conan's world there's not a shadow of a doubt that men are top dogs, women wenches and slaves. I don't mean to question whether this is plausible! (it's a near-cavemen world anyway)--just illustrating what I'm thinking about, that the special exalted role of a few ("super") individuals doesn't necessarily exclude wholesale oppression and/or contempt of their "kind".

#32
I am pretty hard-pressed to come up with any story which has a real Joe Average (or Joelle Average) as the main character. The only one I can think of is I Am Legend. Everyone seems to have some trait which makes them stand out - if they are not smarter than average, they are dumber than average. Their beauty is outside of average. They have a non-average amount of wealth. They have knowledge on an obscure subject, or some special training. So on and so forth. If it isn't explicitly stated, it is implied in the character's actions or the story itself.

#33
I was simply making the point we don't like reading about ordinary people, male or female. We usually want to read about someone that is special in some regard.

The idea that a "strong" character may not reduce poor perceptions of a social group or gender is one worth discussing. I disagree with it myself, but could argue the other side quite easily.

we don't like reading about ordinary people, male or female. We usually want to read about someone that is special in some regard.

Depends on the reader. I too prefer reading about "ordinary" characters in extraordinary situations. Haven't cared for superheroes after childhood.

But again, that was not the focus of my argument.

It began with a quip to Jazzycat, whose point I think stands--the historically inferior role of women in society is reflected in classic SF literature (as it is in ALL literature). If someone is coming away with the impression that SF is about butt-kicking, strong women living in perfectly genderblind societies, that someone is wittingly or not limiting their reading to a relatively recent minority of works.

I wonder how many of you followed the furore over the Table of Contents for Eclipse 2? Not to mention the indignation over last year's Hugo shortlist.

#34 Well PKD made a career out of it; in fact, it was explicitly part of his aim.

this is an interesting topic. i would say i have read lots of books with strong female leads. been reading them since childhood. and, yes, i suppose you could say they are newer books. lol Mercedes Lackey tops that list.

sylvan_eyre - yep, i grew up with all those. also grew up with tanya huff and laurell k hamilton. (the early AB books)

#34 What about Arthur Dent, possibly the ultimate Joe Average?

(Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, for those who don't know. What!? Read it!)

Slightly off-topic, I know.

#38

I have read Mercedes Lackey and she honestly does not top any list of mine. Cliched plots, cliched characters, cliched fantasy races, with no ideas worth discussion. I always thought her female characters as being somewhat weak and introspective myself, but that's just my opinion.

#38 - totally agree in re Ms Lackey - maybe it's my problem, but seems awfully turnkey. Wm Gibson's recent major protagonists have been female; several of Lisa Mason's, esp. in The Golden Nineties, imo, easily her best book; Patricia Anthony's books have strong females both in hero & villain modes;Ted Chiang's protagonists are often female - only a few short stories, but among the best ever in the field.

rojse - not arguing, but i didn't realize any of that when i first started reading her. back than it was all new to me. i only saw the flaws in her work years later.

#42

I must admit, I did quite enjoy the writing of Mercedes Lackey when I was younger.

No-one's mentioned C.J.Cherryh - all those female starship captains, female dock workers, female ship's engineers, characters with good character traits, bad ones and none...

(Not to mention the Hani, a matriarchal space-faring society Pride of Chanur et al) (though I suspect they were more a cat-lover's fantasy...)

I sometimes think that the hallmark of Good Science Fiction is showing an appealing vision of the future and perhaps that we'd have Strong Female Characters in the real future.

It's just that wish fulfillment and male writers are a little too popular in Just Acceptable Science Fiction, so sometimes Strong Female Characters are drowned out by the noise. 90% of everything being crap, as all of you know...

I guess my problem is that once you start to talk about Strong Female Characters, are we talking about Plug Interchangeable Gender, where gender might as well be assigned by a coin toss or does being a strong female character require being clearly female?

I think I need to finish cataloging my collection on LT. Because I'm relying on the stuff I've already added here to refresh my memory of what I've read and see if I've got any memories of truly impressive strong women and coming up too blank...

Read anything by Joanna Russ, Octavia Butler or James Tiptree, Jr. for strong female characters. The best of the bunch in all of SF, is IMHO, Russ' The Female Man - mind blowing!

A friend of mine once said of Joanna Russ, "I always feel as if she's creeping up behind me with a gelding knife."

i keep coming back to Melissa Scott's characters in her SF novels (not her romances) from Dreamships on.

I think a realistic sci-fi female character is hard to find. I mean, sci-fi situations are usually terrifying, so why do they have to make a point of dispelling gender stereotypes and make her impervious to fear? I prefer my heroines to be afraid, but brave, like Sarah Jane Smith.

Fear isn't gender-specific. Men aren't "impervious" to fear any more than women.

I understand that, but in terms of the screaming damsel-in-distress stereotype, I mean.

#49 ... like Sarah Jane Smith.

I'll take Ripley over Sarah Jane any day :-)

I'm coming to this topic a little late, but I'd like to hear if anyone in this conversation has read The Terrorists of Irustan by Louise Marley? I think this book has several strong female characters, but perhaps not in the "conventional" way. The main character isn't a butt-kicking starship captain, but a different kind of strong. And her strength has stuck with me, reminding me there's always ways to be strong and to keep my strength, without being a starship captain getting into brawls. ;)

That said, there are a lot of female characters who've been mentioned here I've enjoyed and a few new ones I'm going to try out. I didn't notice anyone pointing out Honor Harrington in the work of David Weber. She is a larger-than-life space opera heroine and I have enjoyed watching her grow. (I'm having trouble with the touchstone for this author, so I'll link in the first book: On Basilisk Station.)

For me, I'm looking for characters that get me out of my daily hum-drum, that I'd rather be in that world or setting. I'd want to be "Lady Juniper" in the world of the Change series by S M. Stirling or Rachel Morgan in the Hollows series by Kim Harrison (perhaps too "modern fantasy" and not really "sci-fi"?). I'd like to be Kylara Vatta in Vatta's War series by Elizabeth Moon.

I'm currently on an interesting "kick" where I'm finally beginning to appreciate some of the things women did in times past which have been given short shrift by today's "modern woman"---things which might become very important in a sci-fi world where colonization is available. Suddenly, a woman who stayed home and baked the bread and cared for the chickens and the garden and canned the vegetables in the fall and made the soap and the candles and taught the children in the dead of winter....suddenly, that sounds a lot tougher in my world of fibromyalgia and fancy washing machines and dishwashers.

Hope I haven't strayed too far afield on this. My train of thought has been interrupted a couple of times by adorable ferrets needing snuggles! ;)

Anne.