Obama’s “Muslim Advisor” calls "the Turkish Khomeini" an "inspiration" III
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5nickhoonaloon
I`ll give it a go, oakesy me old mate, provided no-one objects to a non-conservative posting in this group.
Firstly, I`ll just spell out my own position on this, just so we`re clear about my intentions. For myself, I`m an atheist, but a believer in religious freedom. I absolutely believe in the right of anyone to worship their god in their own way - I think that`s an essential pre-requisite to a free society. Obviously that includes the right of Muslims to follow their own faith.
Having said that, I do have one fundamental problem with Islam, which is the whole concept of Sharia law. I honestly can`t reconcile that with my own belief in the twin principles of accountability and representation which seem to me to be fundamental to a true democracy.
It may be helpful if I repeat some observations I made in an earlier thread on a similar subject some months ago. I`m sure I`m not so fascinating that everyone remembers them verbatim !
Firstly, I can speak from my own knowledge and experience and of those around me. I can think of two Muslims I`ve known that I would feel reasonably able to speak of their characters. One was (possibly still is) a court official, the other, when I knew her worked for a law enforcement agency. When I last heard of her she worked for a private security company but had close links with the Police etc.
It`s very clear that Muslim communities within the UK often differ widely in character. In the part of the Midlands where I grew up, relatively `liberal` attitudes are often adopted by Muslims ( young women seeking to combine what they see as the best aspects of both Muslim and western traditions would be a good example) without any obvious controversy. The situation in some other Muslim communities in fairly similar parts of the UK is quite different.
As regards signs of reform wthin Islam, I certainly see signs of that, without necessarily knowing how things will eventually pan out. In Leicester there have been marches organised by moderate Muslim leaders against extremism, in Luton at one point fighting broke out between moderate and extremist groups recently. More important, though, must be the wave of discontent that has spread across Iran in the wake of the recent elections. I`m not at this stage especially optimistic about the outcome, but anyone reading this might consider showing some form of support for the protestors, perhaps through a reputable human rights group like Amnesty.
I may not be back on LT for a while, but if anyone has any comments I`ll be glad if we can have a better dialogue than has been happening previously.
Firstly, I`ll just spell out my own position on this, just so we`re clear about my intentions. For myself, I`m an atheist, but a believer in religious freedom. I absolutely believe in the right of anyone to worship their god in their own way - I think that`s an essential pre-requisite to a free society. Obviously that includes the right of Muslims to follow their own faith.
Having said that, I do have one fundamental problem with Islam, which is the whole concept of Sharia law. I honestly can`t reconcile that with my own belief in the twin principles of accountability and representation which seem to me to be fundamental to a true democracy.
It may be helpful if I repeat some observations I made in an earlier thread on a similar subject some months ago. I`m sure I`m not so fascinating that everyone remembers them verbatim !
Firstly, I can speak from my own knowledge and experience and of those around me. I can think of two Muslims I`ve known that I would feel reasonably able to speak of their characters. One was (possibly still is) a court official, the other, when I knew her worked for a law enforcement agency. When I last heard of her she worked for a private security company but had close links with the Police etc.
It`s very clear that Muslim communities within the UK often differ widely in character. In the part of the Midlands where I grew up, relatively `liberal` attitudes are often adopted by Muslims ( young women seeking to combine what they see as the best aspects of both Muslim and western traditions would be a good example) without any obvious controversy. The situation in some other Muslim communities in fairly similar parts of the UK is quite different.
As regards signs of reform wthin Islam, I certainly see signs of that, without necessarily knowing how things will eventually pan out. In Leicester there have been marches organised by moderate Muslim leaders against extremism, in Luton at one point fighting broke out between moderate and extremist groups recently. More important, though, must be the wave of discontent that has spread across Iran in the wake of the recent elections. I`m not at this stage especially optimistic about the outcome, but anyone reading this might consider showing some form of support for the protestors, perhaps through a reputable human rights group like Amnesty.
I may not be back on LT for a while, but if anyone has any comments I`ll be glad if we can have a better dialogue than has been happening previously.
6Jesse_wiedinmyer
It doesn't portray LT in a very good light.
Do you consider that you may play a part in what light the site is set in?
7Doug1943
First thought: the problem a "liberal" Muslim (and I think the distinction is a good one) has is this: is it the case that to be a liberal Muslim, one has to be a pro-Western one?
The case is complicated for Muslims living in Western countries, where there is, or used to be, a presumption of loyalty on the part of citizens.
So let's abstract away from that.
If I am an Algerian Muslim, what should be my attitude towards France -- the second country of all who love liberty, as the saying goes -- ?
Of course, Muslim intellectuals can work out some complex position in which they can embrace the ideals of the Enlightenment, while being anti-imperialist. This is exactly what Muslim Communists did, at least in theory.
But what about your average non-intellectual. Your educated person, but not an intellectual.
If I'm an Iranian who wants to see Islam become the same sort of religion Christianity has in the West -- one that leaves me alone -- must I also be pro-Western? When I consider those bastions of liberty and democracy and the rule of law, the US and Great Britain -- might not my admiration for them be alloyed with some other feelings?
I think this is the big dilemma for Muslim liberals.
Of course, the solution is for the Islamic countries to become "liberal" in the sense that is meant in the original post, grow their economies and societies, become rich and strong, and then they can adopt the attitudes of the Chinese and Japanese towards Western imperialism: when we were little, you had a growth spurt and could beat me up; now we are grown up, and, lo and behold, I'm just as big as you, maybe bigger ... I will be gracious and not hold -- or at least not exhibit -- a grudge. But don't try it again.
The case is complicated for Muslims living in Western countries, where there is, or used to be, a presumption of loyalty on the part of citizens.
So let's abstract away from that.
If I am an Algerian Muslim, what should be my attitude towards France -- the second country of all who love liberty, as the saying goes -- ?
Of course, Muslim intellectuals can work out some complex position in which they can embrace the ideals of the Enlightenment, while being anti-imperialist. This is exactly what Muslim Communists did, at least in theory.
But what about your average non-intellectual. Your educated person, but not an intellectual.
If I'm an Iranian who wants to see Islam become the same sort of religion Christianity has in the West -- one that leaves me alone -- must I also be pro-Western? When I consider those bastions of liberty and democracy and the rule of law, the US and Great Britain -- might not my admiration for them be alloyed with some other feelings?
I think this is the big dilemma for Muslim liberals.
Of course, the solution is for the Islamic countries to become "liberal" in the sense that is meant in the original post, grow their economies and societies, become rich and strong, and then they can adopt the attitudes of the Chinese and Japanese towards Western imperialism: when we were little, you had a growth spurt and could beat me up; now we are grown up, and, lo and behold, I'm just as big as you, maybe bigger ... I will be gracious and not hold -- or at least not exhibit -- a grudge. But don't try it again.
10barney67
Finding a moderate Muslim does seem to be difficult. I've read that even the FBI has hired Muslims who turned out to be anti-American and essentially cheering on the other side of the war.
This looks timely: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/a-look-at-obamas-new-islamic-partners/
This looks timely: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/a-look-at-obamas-new-islamic-partners/
11nickhoonaloon
#8
As regards human rights, it could reasonably be said that human rights abuses are hardly the sole prerogative of Islam.
I think it is a big dilemna in a reasonably free society if one group chooses to go down the path you indicate, but I think there are balances to be struck.
I think I`ve mentioned this before, but it`s probably best to go with specifics rather than meaningless abstractions. Years ago, a Jewish acquaintance of mine was attacked at the bookshop he co-owned by members of a far-right party, as were a number of his customers. The perpetrators all received prison sentences, but they were sentenced for their actions, not their beliefs. The party they belonged to remains legal. Ultimately, I think that`s probably the right balance to strike, to punish behaviour, not beliefs.
As regards human rights, it could reasonably be said that human rights abuses are hardly the sole prerogative of Islam.
I think it is a big dilemna in a reasonably free society if one group chooses to go down the path you indicate, but I think there are balances to be struck.
I think I`ve mentioned this before, but it`s probably best to go with specifics rather than meaningless abstractions. Years ago, a Jewish acquaintance of mine was attacked at the bookshop he co-owned by members of a far-right party, as were a number of his customers. The perpetrators all received prison sentences, but they were sentenced for their actions, not their beliefs. The party they belonged to remains legal. Ultimately, I think that`s probably the right balance to strike, to punish behaviour, not beliefs.
12Doug1943
It's no fun being a "moderate". "Moderate" means "nominal," "indifferent". Would the Christians reading this consider themselves just "moderate" Christians?
Enthusiastic, fervent, committed Christians can proselytize for their religion without killing anyone. (Not that they haven't, in the past. But they've come around to the Enlightenment view.)
There doesn'nt seem to be an equivalent -- or not a very prominent one -- among Muslims.
In the very post-Christian country in which I live, I still get pestered by Jehovah's Witnesses, and invited to Alpha Courses... but the enthusiastic Muslims don't seem to be into conversions. And yet the real killers don't seem to be especially pious or devout, by all accounts. They see Islam as a kind of tribal thing -- the way Jews see Judaism -- and view themselves as tribal warriors. Since Islam commands its true followers to conquer the world, offering the conquered conversion, dhimmitude or death, they have in Islam an ideology which justifies waging war on us.
I suppose the best we can hope for is the emergence of an Islamism which approximates, in its attitude towards the state and social control, 18-19th Century Roman Catholicism, and then hope it evolves from there.
Enthusiastic, fervent, committed Christians can proselytize for their religion without killing anyone. (Not that they haven't, in the past. But they've come around to the Enlightenment view.)
There doesn'nt seem to be an equivalent -- or not a very prominent one -- among Muslims.
In the very post-Christian country in which I live, I still get pestered by Jehovah's Witnesses, and invited to Alpha Courses... but the enthusiastic Muslims don't seem to be into conversions. And yet the real killers don't seem to be especially pious or devout, by all accounts. They see Islam as a kind of tribal thing -- the way Jews see Judaism -- and view themselves as tribal warriors. Since Islam commands its true followers to conquer the world, offering the conquered conversion, dhimmitude or death, they have in Islam an ideology which justifies waging war on us.
I suppose the best we can hope for is the emergence of an Islamism which approximates, in its attitude towards the state and social control, 18-19th Century Roman Catholicism, and then hope it evolves from there.
