inkspot and nannybebette's challenge

inkspot challenged me to a sci-fi: The Player of the Games and I challenged her to a chick lit: Dancing Naked at the Edge of Dawn.
I am yet awaiting the arrival of my book. Will let you know and also begin when it gets here.
belva

inkspot;
The Player of the Games arrived in the post today. As I am in the middle of another read, I will go ahead and finish it and then begin on your challenge for me. Okay? I am looking forward to it and hoping it won't be over my head and that my imagination can handle it.
Talk to you soon.
belva

Hi Belva

My copy of Dancing Naked at the Edge of Dawn was posted this weekend. It's coming from France, and usually anything from Europe takes about a week to reach me, so it looks like our timing has worked out well :) I've enjoyed a few chick lit novels, so hopefully this one will be fun rather than just fluffy.

I really hope you like the Banks. I chose him because his work is sometimes called 'literary sci fi' as has more substance than the stereotypical 'ray guns and rocket ships' (which isn't that common in sci fi today anyway). The focus is on character and plot, and it's a great story overall. I had to read it for a sci fi course at university, and it was one of the books that got me interested in the genre, so hopefully it will reel you in too :)

inkspot;
From what I see on LT, my definition of chick lit and what everyone else's is are very different. Most books by and about women--------I call chick lit. Like Anita Shreve, Sue Monk Kidd, Anna Quindlen, Alice Hoffman, Anne Tyler, Elizabeth Berg, etc. So it's not real fluff. This particular one is hysterical and I think that most women would be peagreen with envy to have the experience that these women have. I won't tell you any more than that but I know that for people who aren't into books by and about women any of these would be passed up. I just hope you don't hate the experience.
I was so amazed by my challenge with Luxx. Neither one of us loved nor hated the experience. She read Steinbeck and I read my very first vampire story. It wasn't graphic and really not creepy at all. I found it a bit erotic which wasn't bad but was surprised that the vampire/victim was woman to woman. I just assumed it was man/woman always. Live and learn. I learned that if it is not too graphic I can handle a vampire story so one day I may try another.
This challenge is a good thing for me. It is getting me out of my comfort zone.
See you on the threads my dear,
belva

Ah, I see. My definition of chick lit is somewhat derogatory - fluffy feel-good stories written for women rather than just about them, typically involving a romance, with nothing much to think about, just a light read. I also avoid what I see as conventional dramas involving women - cancer stories, the middle-aged woman who takes a bold leap by leaving behind her husband and fully-grown kids to go travelling, etc.

However, I like writers like Margaret Atwood who almost always writes stories about women, but has unusual plots and examines gender identity and experiences. I've got some Jeanette Winterson on the shelf that I need to get to, and I also studied and wrote several essays on feminist sci fi, so I'm no stranger to stories about women, although t's not usually the main focus of my reading habits.

My choices have been rather serious lately (it's been a while since my last Pratchett), so a good laugh will be very welcome.

Hope you enjoy even though it is not something you would would choose.
:-)
b

Well, that's the idea I guess :)
Either way, I've never regretted reading a book, even if I hated it. I value the experience, even if it's just to say I did it.

Very well said. That is a great philosophy to have. I need to adapt to that one.

Agreed - very well said, and exactly how I feel as well!

Good morning inkspot;
I am almost half way through The Player of the Games. He has cheated the girl in the game and been blackmailed, has left and is just now arriving at "planet destination". I was cracking up when he found out that his friend had changed back into a woman so he/she could have his/her eighth child.
I just want you to know how much work this is for me. I am actually enjoying the book, the characters, the funny little "drones", the asexual beings, the ships even have personalities. But this one is really a mind bender for me. I am having to work to remain concentrated on the book. Not that is is boring, but everything, every aspect of the book is new to me. I don't think I could do it if I weren't enjoying it, but I am.
So thank you for giving me this challenge. I may not be able to write a sensible review when I have completed it, but I won't have a problem completing it.
I think it is one of a series (the 2nd one). Am I correct? It seems like a stand alone book though the cover says something about it being one of several.
Anyway I hope you are having a good day and that you have a great weekend. I will talk to you later.
belva

Hi Belva

I'm really glad you're enjoying the book, although I'm sorry it has to be so much work for you! In understand how you feel though - when I read this and other sci fi novels, it as the first time I'd read the genre since primary school, and I felt a bit lost too.

Player is part of a series, but it's not necessary to read them in order. However, this one and the first provide the best introduction to the Culture. The first, Consider Phlebus is longer though, and it's one of those books I keep starting but never finish because I get a bit bored. Each Culture novel is set thousands of years apart, and although they may refer to events of previous novels, they are stand-alone.

Some basic info on the Culture, if it helps:
- It isn't an advanced Earth society. Earth is just another 'backward' planet like the one Gurgeh is going to.
- The ships and drones are exceptionally advanced AI's and are considered part of society, not just machines. The ship minds are particularly advanced and are the closest thing the Culture has to any kind of government. People do wonder what exactly it is the Minds are up to sometimes, and the extent to which they control events in the universe.
- The Culture is post-human. Humans can change their body structure, sex or even species. They also have drug glands, allowing them to secrete various drugs for pleasure, relaxation, increased concentration, etc. Life span for the average human is about 3 centuries. I don't think they die of old age so much as deciding to be disintegrated in space, but I might be wrong about that. Medical capabilities are so far advanced that death by injury is unlikely, unless you find yourself in unusually dangerous circumstances in another society.
- Living spaces include ships and orbitals, but no planets. Orbitals are basically vast discs which can be made habitable according to personal preference (Yay wants to design some weird ones).
- On the whole, the Culture is extremely advanced and egalitarian. They have unlimited resources. There is no money, no government, no need to work, no religion, no crime.
- The Culture novels typically involve a clash with less advanced societies who have different philosophies and politics.

For a more in-depth discussion on the politics and philosophy: http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm
And the wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture

I'm still waiting on Dancing Naked at the Edge of Dawn. It should arrive sometime this week, although I will only be able to pick it up on Saturday.

I hope you enjoy the rest of the book!

Hey there inkspot;
I would like to thank you for this challenge.
I truly enjoyed reading The Player of Games. Some of it was quite over my head and some of it I had to ponder before I "got it" and some of it I didn't get. But I just allowed the book to flow over me and I was able to get into it. I even cared about a few of the "characters"; the ship being one of them. I never did figure out who the dude was in the end:

"...No, not quite the end.
There's still me. I know I've been naughty, not revealing my identity, but then, maybe you've guessed; and who am I to deprive you of the satisfaction of working it out for yourself? Who am I, indeed?
"Yes, I was there, all the time. Well, more or less all the time. I watched, I listened, I thought and sensed and waited, and did as I was told (or asked, to maintain the proprieties). I was there all right, in person or in the shape of one of my representatives, my little spies."
"To be honest, I don't know whether I'd have liked old Gurgeh to have found out the truth or not; still undecided on that one, I must confess. I---we---left it to chance, in the end."
etc.

My only thought was that it was Flere-Imsaho, but then I thought: no, that cannot be, not with the "we" thrown in there. So I am left with IDK.

But I enjoyed the book tremendously and very much to my surprise as I just simply do not read sci-fi. So I thank you. You chose well for me.
I hope that I did as well for you.
hugs,
belva

Hi Belva

I'm glad you enjoyed it :) You were right the first time about the narrator at the end - it was Flere-Imsaho. When it said 'we' it was speaking as a representative of Contact, which had been planning the whole thing for quite some time. Although, now that I think about it, it could also be referring to the different identities it had - Flere-Imsaho, Mawhrin-Skel, and perhaps other 'spies' we don't know about.

The Player of Games is one of those books I recommend to those who don't normally read sf, because it dispels some of the stereotypes about the genre and gives you a great story as well.

I see you have Oryx and Crake in your library. It's also one of my favourite sci fi novels, and now that you've dipped into the genre, you should be ready for that one. It's actually less far out that Banks (it's on Earth at least, and there are no aliens) and Margaret Atwood is a wonderful writer. In addition, many of themes are of interest at the moment, making it an ever better read.

I received a few notices to pick up some packages at the post office, and I think the book you challenged me to read will be one of them. I'll pick it up on Saturday and get reading asap.

Cheers!
Lauren

I received Dancing Naked at the Edge of Dawn on Saturday, and I'm about halfway through it now. After your 'rousing success' with sci fi, I wanted very much to like this book, to say how much I tearing through it because it was such a great story. But that’s not true, and I'd rather be honest. Which is to say, I'm a bit bored and occasionally irritated.

I expected Meg to be upset about her husband cheating on her, but not to be so devastated that she spent three weeks holed-up in a friend’s house and a few more moping around at home. I kept thinking, gees, get over it. Or talk to him. But she only talks to the wise and inspiring women in her life. There seem to be quite a lot of those, with plenty of inspirational metaphors, and it feels a bit contrived. There is also an over-abundance of detail. I normally enjoy lots of detail, and I don’t mind if an author spends three chapters describing a few minutes – if they do it right – but I’m getting bogged down by it here.

The novel celebrates friendships with women and female empowerment, but I think it could push this much further. Female friendships and empowerment exist in an almost mythical place, outside of real life. It takes exceptional circumstances to bring it out - Bob cheating on Meg, Jane sleeping with Bob, Gretchen’s pregnancy, a trip to Mexico, rebelling against discrimination. And there are elements of myth and magic in Elizabeth and Meg’s aunt’s characters. The book would have a more powerful message, I feel, if women’s relationships and power were more practical rather than a fantasy. I feel like the real world is still a ‘male’ place, and the world of women is only an escape, not something to be lived in. In the flashbacks this would make more sense, but in the present there could be more change.

Also despite the idea of women being able to be ‘alone’ (ie. single) and be happy, the first time Meg talks about divorcing her husband is when she is talking to an attractive man, who asks her out on a date a few moments later. Again, the idea of being alone seems more of a fantasy. Meg still needs a real-world safety net – a new man to take Bob’s place.

I’m also a bit bothered by the way they romanticise the aunt’s relationship with Pancho, since it isn’t so different from Meg’s situation. Pancho had an unhappy marriage and cheated on his wife, which is what Bob did. But Bob can’t claim to have found the true love of his life or to have been forced into marriage, so he has to be the villain, not the romantic hero. However, we don’t know Bob’s side of the story (or at least I don’t, yet), nor do we know how Pancho’s wife felt about his infidelity and whether she was also devastated and humiliated.

Perhaps my aversion to the book has something to do with the difference in age and lifestyle between me and the protagonist. I’m 24, I’ve currently got no interest in marriage, and even less in kids, and I'm not American, so I’m hardly the kind of person this book is written for. I struggle to empathise with Meg and the course of action she's taken. I want her to be bolder and less whiny. I want the book to solidify into a witty, biting feminist tract or veer off into unabashed recklessness as Meg goes partying and has a few affairs of her own, out on those beautiful Mexican beaches. Although Meg annoys me a bit, I do hope things will work out for her, whether she makes things up with Bob, finds a new love or simply takes a bolder approach to life. I guess it's unfair of me to expect these things to happen the way I want them to though. I expect to finish the book by the end of the week, and as I read I'll try and soften my approach.

I finished Dancing Naked at the Edge of Dawn today. My earlier review was harsh, I realise, and I hope I haven't scared you off Belva. Overall, my opinion of the book hasn't changed much, but I was nevertheless able to find inspiration in its sentiments and reading it has been a valuable cultural experience for me. It got me thinking about relationships between men and women, between women, and the relationships that women have with themselves, which is something I've always been interested in. Here's my review:

This is the story of Meg, a middle class American suburban wife and mother whose life undergoes a series of drastic changes after she watches her husband Bob having an affair with another woman. At first, the event leaves her broken, but as the narrative progresses it seems to be the best thing that's ever happened to her, causing her to escape the life that has made her so unhappy and start a new one more in tune with her passions and friendships. Meg finds solace in a multitude of strong, wise women who are always ready to listen and reply with inspiring metaphors and anecdotes. These women and Meg's friendships with them are lovely but unreal - wonderful as they are, the way they pop up wherever Meg needs them seems contrived.

In fact, given the people and influences in Meg's life, I couldn't understand why she'd married Bob in the first place or why she'd allowed herself to become so unhappy. Each flashback chapter shows a feminist influence in Meg's life, but none of these seem to have had much impact on her. She encounters several women whose stories show that marriage (at least in this society) is bad for women, turning them into unhappy servants of their husbands and children and reducing their aspirations to daydreams. At one point, she admits that she doesn’t know of any happy marriages except her grandparents’. Other characters encourage Meg to follow her passions rather than submit to social pressures. And yet she still marries Bob at 20. I don't think it's impossible for something like this to occur, but given the circumstances, I found myself waiting for an explanation, a glimpse of Meg and Bob’s early relationship. I felt Radish owed it to the reader, but it never came.

I was also left wondering why Meg, a well-educated woman with so many strong, outspoken women in her life, never seems to have talked to her husband about her unhappiness and tried to work things out, either before or after learning about his affairs. Despite the novel’s strong feminist tones, the conclusion it offers is that women are still the weaker sex. They may have the strength to leave their husbands and stay single, but they don’t have the strength to face the men in their lives and confront the problem of sexism. They can escape, but they can’t fight. If they’re lucky, they will find kind men with egalitarian sensibilities who will not pose a threat. Or they can just live with other women, and avoid men.

Divorce seems the only solution posed for an unhappy marriage then, because it’s always going to be unhappy. Women must find solace in each other, or in themselves. But on the whole, this feels like a fantasy. There are mythical women like Elizabeth, Linda, Dr Carol Kimbal – goddess-like in their wisdom, strength and beauty. There are magical places – Elizabeth’s apartment, Mexico, Meg’s new apartment. There are New Age ideas and practices throughout and the ending is a lovely dream of success. To me, all the wonderful things the novel celebrates feel unreal, a New Age fantasy to be indulged in while you’re reading, but not something for everyday life where men like Bob are still in control.

Nevertheless, I still found aspects of the novel inspiring, even if I don’t agree with the way Radish has expressed them. The voracious appetite for change is so exciting, the suggestion of being happy while staying single is both calming and thrilling. I also found the novel to be an interesting perspective of middle-aged women in suburban middle-class America - a culture far from my own. It’s clearly something that speaks to them, and to women elsewhere. I think it works as an inspiring fantasy, but nothing more.

This book has given me a break from the more complex, biting stories about women that I normally read, but it’s still gotten me talking about the subject, which is very important to me. I can’t say I liked it, and I probably wouldn’t read more chick-lit unless challenged to, but it’s good to have dipped into the genre.

Thank you very much for this challenge Belva! It’s been the most challenging of them so far, taking me furthest from my tastes, but still giving me a rewarding experience :)

inkspot;
I like your review very much. I can see this book in a different light other than my own because of our generational differences. Because I fit right (or did when I read the book) into the group of women written about and found myself in that place and time. We aren't always as strong and brave as we would like to be and sometimes it is more painful to change than to remain the same.
I appreciated this particular challenge as well, but think that I did enjoy "my book" more than you did yours. I am however, happy that you were able to find something redeeming or rewarding to come from the challenge as that is what I think we are here for.
Thank you for the challenge inkspot.
belva

Thanks for your reply Belva. I was worried I’d been too harsh, but I think the generational and cultural gap did make a big difference. It's always good to get a glimpse of things from a different perspective though.

Another good thing is that this book got me to finally read Fear of Flying by Erica Jong – one of those books I’ve always been determined to read but kept starting without finishing. So I’ve got that to thank you for as well :)