Question 2 - Sin & redemption

What importance do sin and redemption serve in the novel?

I felt that the Picture reveals that sin not only is wrong morally but that it can effect our own ongoing health. Everytime Dorian seems to do something morally reprehensible, the picture reflects a change in his appearance. If we overeat or drink we have changes to our appearances (gain weight and read noses).

When Dorian tries to be "good" he keeps looking for changes in the picture and is disappointed when there aren't any. Redemptiin only occurs when he tries to destroy the picture.

When Dorian realizes that there will be no personal consequences to his "sins", his behavior becomes increasingly immoral (at least according to the standards of that time). Because he does not suffer the consequences, he has no reason to stop.

Unlike the immediately effect his actions have on the picture, Dorian does not notice any changes when he attempts "good" behavior. I think this is a deterrent to Dorian. Had he received an immediate reward for his good behavior, perhaps he would have made more of an effort.

The final scene could be considered redemption, I suppose. He releases all of his past sins and takes his punishment for those sins.

I think the book is fairly pessimistic about redemption. Dorian's final act may or may not grant him redemption, but it seems clear that what he had hoped for was that it would wipe away his sins. If he had intended that by destroying the painting he would be forced to take full responsibility for his sins, then I would see at as a clear redemption.

As for sin, I was reminded a bit of one of the lines from the movie Hollow Man, "It's amazing what you can do... when you don't have to look at yourself in the mirror any more."

Carlos,

Good Quote, - can I steal it for my favorite quotes page?

My answer to this question seems too simplistic, so I may be missing something (or a lot).

There doesn't seem to be any redemption. The sins can't be erased. That the good act didn't reverse the process implies to me that once committed, the sin is there forever; and when the destruction of the painting causes the sins to be relected on Dorian himself, it seems to indicate that they must be paid for one way or another.

Of couse, as Carlos says, there is a further question as to whether Dorian was actually seeking redemption. His motivation seemed to be merely to change the picture, not the underlying beliefs or feelings; he showed no regret, desire for forgiveness, etc.

My perspective is that redemption doesn't happen without repentence, and I saw none. Oh, Dorian was sorry in the way that a child is sorry when his hand gets caught in the cookie jar -- sorry of the consequences, even if they only appeared on the portrait. But his insistence on blame-casting -- the book's fault, the painting's fault, etc. -- shows that he wasn't taking responsibility for his actions. And I saw no real effort to turn his life around. The one so-called "kindness" he did seemed more motivated by seeing what it would do to the portrait, an idle exercise if you will, than a genuine effort at amendment of life.

Ah, tymfos;
You took the words right out of my mouth. (or in this case, off my fingertips)
Dorian went to any lengths to cover up his misdeeds. It was of no matter to him who paid the consequences of his actions. He did not accept responsibility for any of them.
And though he came to hate and dread the originally beautifully portrait of himself, he loved that the portrait suffered the consequences of his actions for he thought it freed him. Even unto the end, he was unwilling to seek redemption; he was still simply attempting to destroy evidence.
belva

I think sin serves as a metaphor for ugliness and is an important part of the book - I don't think that redemption is part of the book at all.

I've read on wikipedia that there were two substantially different editions - one much longer and less homoerotic than the other which is interesting - I found some sections oddly devoid of any detail at all - which let you imagine whatever depravities you wanted (or not) but now I wonder if they're expurgated references to homosexuality?

Hmm...I wonder which edition I read because there's not many references to homosexuality in it, or maybe the references are so subtle I'm just not recognizing them? I will feel a little cheated if I discover I've read an edition that is not as complete as the author originally intended.

I did not recognize any references to homosexuality other that when the one lady states.......that oh, they might do "that" "someplace else", (I don't remember where she said & cannot find it again in the book), but gentlemen would never. Other than that, I saw or noticed no references to homosexuality at all in my copy.

I think the references to homosexuality are very veiled and ambiguous - which is only to be expected given that homosexual activity was illegal when the book was written. Some of the comments about relationships and friendships between the men can, I think, be interpreted by the reader either as referring to friendship or to sexual relationships. Dorian Gray's relationship with Alan Campbell, for example: what the reader sees in the description of the relationship depends what they are looking for.

As regards sin and redemption, I think the metaphors are very complex.

The picture strikes me as being as much a metaphor for conscience as for sin. The things which Dorian Gray does affect the picture in the same way they affect his soul. He becomes twisted and callous, and the portrait shows that.

To begin with, he isn’t indifferent to the effect of his behaviour on others. Not at first. He feels some guilt over Sibyl Vane, although later his concerns over what he does to Basil are entirely selfish. He becomes gradually more and more calloused - less and less attuned to the feelings of others, less and less able to feel the damage he is doing.

He understands that the picture represents his soul, his state of sin, and he knows that each selfish action will cause more damage. In that way, the picture is a kind of external conscience, telling him incontrovertibly that he has done wrong. And yet despite that, he does not change. He hides the picture away and refuses to allow the world to see what his soul is like, and broods over it until the obsession leads him to the final act of self-destruction.

Our consciences can never be physically seen, by us or by anyone else. Yet we still hide away things that we have done which we know or believe to be wrong. For most of us they are little things, but they are things we don’t want others to know about. Human beings have an astonishing capacity to disregard the damage they are doing to themselves and others - physically, emotionally, spiritually - and instead to seek short-term pleasure. Dorian Gray's hedonism and refusal to consider the consequences of what he does is an extreme example - people generally have the capacity for great love and kindness and well as acts of selfishness - but it seems to me that it's designed to be (and ought to be) a prompt for the reader to consider what a picture reflecting their own soul would look like.

(Stopping now before this turns into a sermon ... although I think I might have passed that point already. Oops.)

Very good points and I liked the way you explained them CatyM.
I think that in today's world, Mr. Gray would come to be classified/diagnosed as a sociopath for the reasons you gave. He came to a point where his conscious did not bother him and he was unable to be remorseful for he had it not within himself to be so.
belva

BTW - The Penguin edition I read included in its notes the changes from the original version to the edited one. Nothing explicit at all. Wilde only revised words that might have made the emotions involved less ambiguous.

#12 I don't think I could put it better than Caty has!

#13 Belva - "sociopath" - that was a word I was looking for when writing a comment on another thread. I agree - but I think it would be even more applicable to Henry Wotton - an inability to recognise emotions in others.

I think that the possibility of redemption appeared when Dorian contemplated whether or not he should confess to his sins publicly, to own up to what he had done. He even tried it out by mentioning the murder of Basil, but somewhat hypothetically. In the end, he could not confess because of his fear of the consequences, so there was no redemption.
--BJ