February Read: The Moonflower Vine

Here is the place-marker for the book we'll start discussing on February 1 (can't wait--I finished it last night!). I'll be sending out a reminder this weekend, and we'll start talking here on 2/1/10!

I had to get mine through interlibrary loan, and it needs to go back this weekend, so I've already finished too! I also can't wait for the discussion.

I finished last night too - gulping down the last 100 pages. What a great book!

I've been putting off beginning this book - it's due back to the library next week, so I'll plan to read it over the weekend. Glad to hear that everyone has enjoyed it so far.

I've got two books going now where I'm more than halfway. When I finish those, probably by mid-week, I will start on The Moonflower Vine.

I finished this morning. Book is overdue at the library, so I'll be returning it later today. Hope I can remember enough details for discussion next week!

I'm so glad I bought my copy of The Moonflower Vine. It's one of those books I will be foisting on my friends. I'm still reading it, but go ahead and start the discussion at any time. I'm in Mathy's part right now and still shaking my head over the revelation about Matthew. Flawed characters are the most interesting ones; however, I didn't see that particular weakness coming.

I posted this on the "Winter's Bone" thread yesterday. The movie version won at the Sundance Festival. Yea for Daniel Woodrell. On a related note, I wonder if Jessica's family in the Cabool area are into moonshine and meth?

Well, I'm ready to start. I'm also glad that I own the book. It touched me in a very special way. While reading the first chapter, I couldn't help but associate the characters with my mother's family. Matthew and Callie reminded me of my grandparents, and there were four girls (and one boy) in my mother's family. One was even named Leona! So with that vision in my head, as I read the rest of the book, I found myself wondering about all the secrets we all have, and what happens to those secrets as we get older. I remember my grandfather as a sweet, pipe-smoking carpenter in overalls, but my mother says they were sharecroppers in Oran and that he was a violent alcoholic when she was young. I know I have a lot of secrets myself, and I wonder what happens to those secrets when we pass on?

Anyway, that's not as much about the book as about personal comparisons, but I think that was the reason the story stuck with me so thoroughly.

I think another great thing about that book is what Donna said about the flawed characters. We may never know what lurks below the surface of people we think we know.

Fabulous book, from my standpoint. It's a shame she didn't write more.

I loved the prose in the novel. Such beautiful, evocative writing - the descriptions of Missouri in the summer are spot on, and made me a little homesick while I was reading it (especially since while I was reading it, we had a foot of snow on the ground and it was about 6 degrees up here in Maine).

I really enjoyed this one. I'm one who loves a great plot with characters secondary so, early on, I was grumbling about the lack of plot. Suddenly, I realized that it did have a plot but, due to the leisurely pace, I was missing it.

The writing was beautiful. Too bad there weren't more from her.

More thoughts later. I'm sick and having a hard time concentrating.

The local St. Louis "alt" paper, The Riverfront Times, did a lengthy feature article last year on Jetta Carleton and this book. A recommended read:

http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2009-05-13/news/moonflower-resurrection-jetta-car...

Moonflower Resurrection: Jetta Carleton's long-forgotten bestseller about the secret desires of a Missouri farm family blooms again
By Aimee Levitt
Published on May 12, 2009 at 11:47am

Of particular interest from the Riverfront Times article:

"In May 2003, a tornado swept through Pierce City and destroyed most of the town, including Carleton Beasley's house. Carleton's papers were lost, including the manuscript of the mysterious second novel. ("It makes any writer think about storing their papers in two different places," comments Jane Smiley.)

Or so her family thought.

In March of this year, Charlie Langdon wrote about the reissue of The Moonflower Vine in his column in the Durango Herald. He also reported that, while sorting through Carleton's papers after her death, Calloway had discovered the lost manuscript.

And finally, Jetta Carleton's obituary from the Albuquerque Journal on December 31, 1999.:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=17558553

JETTA LYON , 86, of Santa Fe died Tuesday following a stroke. She was a writer. Her major work, written under her maiden name, Jetta Carleton, was 'The Moonflower Vine,' a novel from her childhood in rural Missouri. The book was published by Simon and Schuster in 1962 and became an immediate best-seller in both hardback and paperback. It was a selection of the Literary Guild and the Readers Digest Condensed Book Club. She was a graduate of Cottey College and the University of Missouri. She taught school briefly, wrote for radio in Kansas city and for television and advertising in New York. She and her husband lived in Hoboken, N.J., and Washington, D.C., before building a home in Santa Fe in 1970. They founded The Lightning Tree press in 1973, publishing nearly 100 titles. The Rocky Mountain Book Publishers Association honored them in 1991 with its first Rittenhouse Award for lifetime contributions to regional publishing. She was preceded in death by her husband of 50 years, Jene Lyon. She is survived by a sister and grand-nephew in Wichita, Kan. Friends scatter her ashes at her home in the Santa Fe foothills at 1 p.m. on Sunday. Santa Fe Funeral Options.

Burial:
Cremated, Ashes scattered.
Specifically: Ashes scattered at her home.

Created by: Steve Jones
Record added: Jan 18, 2007
Find A Grave Memorial# 17558553

>11 fugitive:, 13. Wow, thanks for the Riverfront Times review and the obit posted on findagrave. I appreciate the background info. I'm not quite finished with the book, so I'll go do that now and then I'll be back later tonight.

#8 Terri, I think you're onto something with the personal comparisons. For me, that is what made the book so strong. This family is just like someone we all know - they remind us of ourselves and our past - our families and our hometowns. Don't know about drinking too much (probably so), but my grandfather beat his wife, and his much younger sister who lived with them. However, I only knew him as a devout church-going man. That secret might have been hidden from me forever, if my 90-something great-aunt hadn't told me about it only a few years ago. I still don't know how I feel about learning such an old family secret - I sort of wish it had died with him.

Is it OK now to make comments containing spoilers? If not, then skip ahead.

To casual acquaintances, Matthew and Callie probably seemed like a perfectly nice, happy couple. Those who knew them well, especially when they were younger, might have been aware that there were times when the relationship was strained. After all, probably most marriages go through rocky times, especially 10-15 years in. But I doubt that either of them told anyone their secrets - isn't that why Matthew was so disturbed by Ed's comments after Mathy died? He was just too close for comfort when he was talking about Allison (is that the right girl? My book's gone back to the library). But Callie never told anyone her secret, and never would. It was going to the grave with her. I don't about any of you, but I've got a secret or two that I've never told, and never will. I can sure identify with her determination to keep quiet, even though there are times when she wrestled with feelings of guilt. End of spoilers

#7 lol, Donna! Maybe Woodrell is writing about Jessica's great-grandchildren!

>11 fugitive:, 13 Ditto the thanks for the articles!

Sandy, you're spot-on about the secrets. And don't you wonder, looking back on your parents, grandparents, and other relatives, what their secrets are and how those secrets shaped their lives?

Another interesting point: In the RFT article, it implied that Mary Jo was Jetta Carleton. Notice how little we end up knowing about Mary Jo, as opposed to the rest of the family. It makes me wish I knew some of Carleton's secrets!

#16 I assumed all along that Mary Jo was Jetta Carleton - after all, she was the one who moved away to New York, just like Jetta.

>16 tloeffler:. "Notice how little we end up knowing about Mary Jo. . . ."

And isn't that why writers seem to be compelled to complete a story--for example, Wide Sargasso Sea, the story of Mr. Rochester's "mad" wife that we know so little of from Jane Eyre.

>15 sjmccreary:. "This family is just like someone we all know - they remind us of ourselves and our past - our families and our hometowns."

Oh my, how true. I have a great-great aunt, Leona (sister of my mother's grandmother) and the older I get, the more like her I look. I just noticed that a year or so ago. So now I'm desperate to find out more about her life. However, she had no children--no one to pass on her story--so I'm having a hard time finding out anything about her. I may just have to "imagine" a life story for her some day.

My Aunt Leona was born in 1883 in La Junta, Colorado. So she was about the same age as the mother in this story. I love the little touches of dialect that Carleton uses--particularly in the letter from Cousin Ophelia in the first chapter: "Well Ralph and me are about as well as common." Too much of that gets in the way, IMO. Sarah Orne Jewett was very good at the same thing--just giving a little flavor of the dialect.

>15 sjmccreary:. Family secrets. Yes, they can be hard to hear, but I'd rather know them than not. My mother-in-law would never drink so much as a drop of liquor--it gave her a "headache," she always said. Then one time, I was talking to her brother's wife, who told me that my MIL's mother was an alcoholic--and gave me the whole sordid tale of the last 10 years of her life. I never told my MIL what I'd been told about her mother, but I wished that she had been willing herself to talk about it. Family secrets--the stuff that genealogy is built on. Heh.

>8 tloeffler:. "We may never know what lurks below the surface of people we think we know."

And that's the other side of family secrets. I have a secret in my life, probably we all do, that I would deny on my death bed. Now if someone ferrets it out a couple of generations from now--well, that's OK. But I would die if anyone found out about it now.

OK, so I gotta go finish the book.

I'm not a member of this group, but The Moonflower Vine was one of the best books I read last year and I was excited to learn about this discussion thread. My mother's family is from rural and small town Indiana and has always been very close knit, like the Soames family. My great-grandparents were about the same age as Matthew and Callie.

I love the structure of the book. I really think that each person's story could stand alone as a short story or novella. However, each one's story is only one facet of the whole, which can only be understood when all of the stories are known.

I'm the family historian/genealogist in my family, and I've discovered several old secrets in the course of my research. I remember asking one of my relatives about a 75 year old crime I'd heard about. Even though this event happened before he was born, he'd heard details from people who were present and he was uncomfortable talking about it. I don't think he'd talked about it with anyone before I asked. Some secrets do have a very long reach.

>19 cbl_tn:. Well, you're absolutely welcome to join us here--please join in the conversation.

Oh, I so love this. It's from the first chapter.

"we were rarely allowed to read. Shouldn't we instead be doing something?"

That's like a tape repeating itself in my mind. My constant reading as a kid drove my mother crazy. "You should be outside on such a beautiful day," she would say. So I would take my book outside.

#21, That's exactly what I'd do, too.

That was a fascinating article in Post #11. Thank you, fugitive, for calling it to our attention. I look forward to the publication of The Back Alleys of Spring.

I finished the book and loved the characters -- flaws, secrets, and all. The descriptions of nature were awesome. I have a question...is there really such a thing as a white rainbow? An interesting phenomenon, but one that I've not seen nor heard of.

Before I start rambling in my tiredness, I'll sleep on this wonderful reading experience and try to have some cohesive thoughts in the morning.

I'm absolutely going to have to plant a moonflower vine--has anyone ever grown one?

http://www.ehow.com/how_2090734_grow-moonflower-vine.html

No, but you are a mindreader, Becky. It was late (for me anyway) last night when I finished the book, and I immediately googled Moonflower Vine. I don't have very good luck with planting flowers from seeds, but I'm going to give this a try. Of course, I'm going to have to enlarge the garden and buy a trellis!

I had to have a big old silver maple taken out of my back yard this past fall. It wasn't a "good" tree like an oak, but I liked it--the branches hung outside my office window and I had robins make a nest there several seasons in a row--and it gave us some privacy from the house next door.

So I really miss that tree, but at the same time, I realize that having sun instead of shade in that area gives me all sorts of opportunities for new plants that I didn't have before. The Moonflower Vine likes full sun--so somewhere in my back yard I will find a good spot for it. Oh--I have an iron gazebo from Mexico in the back that was in the shade and now is in the sun. I can absolutely imagine a Moonflower Vine growing all over that gazebo. It's a nice thought, anyway, especially in February.

I thought briefly about it, but I have a totally black thumb. I can barely get grass to grow (now, weeds, on the other hand...). I was entranced by the picture of them sitting outside watching the flowers bloom.

Oh, just thought of an analogy! Maybe our lives are like a moonflower, and once in a while, something happens, just the right conditions, and we open up for a little while, and that changes everything for a while. I can see that applying to the family. Each of them had a "defining moment."

Or it could just be me over-analyzing.

>19 cbl_tn: cbl_tn, feel free to join the group! We don't require state citizenship, and we read some very interesting books! Thanks for chiming in!

I like that analogy, Terri. I think this book lends itself to realizing many life lessons. I'll be pondering its wisdom for some time. It may have even been a "defining moment" in my life.

And I wish I had an iron gazebo from Mexico in my back yard. While I (or maybe that should be we since it will involve hubby labor) am expanding the garden, I may also have to plant some tomatoes. Lucky the Lab will have to chase the geese away as they seem to love green tomatoes!

I just posted my review of The Moonflower Vine. It was difficult not to be too gushy, or "flowery" with my comments. I've spent many hours through my married life in my deceased in-laws country farmhouse. Who knows, there might even have been a moonflower vine along one of the fences as my m-i-law loved her flowers...and gardening...and canning, etc. Yup, their lives were all about work, church, and family.

My favorite part (right now anyway) was when "fixy fussy" Leonie went off to Kansas City with her bruised feelings. She was determined to be a modern girl and have some fun because, after all, "Hell had shifted its location; it was farther away than people used to think."

>27 tloeffler:. Oh, I like that a lot--that "moment" when life changed for each of them, when they could have chosen differently. That's really nice, Terri.

I'm really enjoying reading everyone's thoughts about this book. I loved it, and I had never heard of it before. So thanks for bringing it to my attention!

I agree that part of the reason that this book was so powerful was because I could identify with so many of the details. Is that just because of where I grew up and the way I was raised? Partly, I think. When Carleton wrote about the Soames' ring on the party line, I flashed back to listening for our ring when I was a kid. When one of the farmers said, ""Christamighty, Walt. What'd you let it get so hot for?", I could practically see several people in the small town where I grew up delivering that line. So this book really worked for me. (I can't wait to loan it to my mom.)

But I do think that there were some aspects of the story that transcend time and place. Carleton provides some interesting insights into family dynamics that seemed to have broad application. It struck me that the scene that begins the book (watching the moonflower vine, getting ready for a picnic) gave us a look at the family as outsiders might see them (close-knit and loving). But this part of the book didn't even come close to foreshadowing all that had occurred in the Soames family. The conflict that occurs doesn't tear this family apart, but it does define who they are. This resonated with me, and I imagine a lot of families would identify with this as well.

I'm also really interested in Terry's insight (#27) that sometimes our lives are like a moonflower and under just the right conditions, we open up for a little while. I also thought a lot about the moonflower metaphor. In some ways, the moonflowers seem a little like a moment of grace. Especially after I had read the whole book, I went back and was a little amazed at how close the family seemed at the point in time. Despite all that had happened to them, they were able to enjoy that moment together. They had to be receptive, but for a brief moment they drew together around the moonflower vine.

As I read, I found myself being much less forgiving of Matthew as compared to any of the female characters. Was this just me? Did other people get frustrated with Matthew?

#31 Why do you think you were less forgiving of Matthew? I think Jessica was the one I couldn't understand - maybe I just didn't see the appeal of the hired hand (can't remember his name) and she certainly never communicated her fondness for his family and their home. Then she chose the less suitable of the two men for a second husband - again without any visibly compelling reason. I don't mind her doing something that the rest of the family thinks is foolish, but I'd like to see into her heart and mind enough to understand why SHE thinks those decisions were good.

>31 porch_reader:: Anger and betrayal was my first reaction to Matthew's young girl problem, but then I started feeling sorry for him because he was so weak and hypocritical. And you have to give him some credit for not acting on his desires. He and Leonie felt like something (culture maybe) was missing in their lives. I think it was more in his head than in his heart (and other body parts). :-)

>32 sjmccreary:: Sandy, I agree that Jessica was the least fleshed-out character. I did enjoy the way she gently teased her mother in the first part about the preacher's wife "not getting any" or however she put it. Funny stuff.

#33 Yeah, that was a funny line - and I guess it set me up to expect that she would be more candid about things than she turned out to be.

Donna and Sandy - Maybe I was less forgiving of Matthew because his interest in young girls just seemed so creepy to me. Plus, he was so concerned about reputation - making sure his family kept up appearances - but he certainly wasn't squeaky clean himself. I just wanted him to open up more to his own girls - although his relationship with them was probably quite consistent with many fathers at that time.

I hadn't thought about Jessica much - but I see you point Sandy. Her motivations just weren't very clear.

#35 I see what you're saying about Matthew, but I guess Donna nailed that one for me - at least he never acted on his impulses. Plus, these weren't small children he was attracted to - these were pretty young women who flirted right back. I thought the concern for keeping up appearances came from Callie - that is my perception, at least. Matthew was embarrassed when Mathy did outrageous things, but I thought he accepted her stunts good naturedly (at least most of the time).

>31 porch_reader:. "As I read, I found myself being much less forgiving of Matthew"

Matthew was a foolish man, and he seems to have been aware of that: "I've been a damned fool, besides." He also says, with sin you can repent and be done with it, "but the wages of foolishness is the eternal recalling of it." What I thought he was saying was that God could forgive him his sin, but he couldn't forgive himself for being a fool.

But he was even a bigger fool than he thought he was, because he continued to allow himself to be distracted by the young girls all through his teaching career. He should have learned his lesson, but he doesn't seem to have done so. Also he doesn't seem to have struggled with that very much.

Having said that, I would also add that Matthew didn't really interest me all that much, and I'm sitting here trying to figure out who I liked the best.

Did anyone have a clearly favorite character?

Okay, I'll go first. I suppose Leonie would have to be my favorite character, but only because she is the one most like me. I am the peacemaker and people pleaser in my family, a role I am trying to relinquish.

There was a time when I, like Leonie, thought putting on a happy face was how people should act. Thankfully, I've matured and realize the importance of letting people grieve in their own way for however long they need to. It was painful (while being humorous) for me to read about the lengths she went to the summer after Mathy's death to cover it up...all the little musicals and Shakespeare readings, etc.

I like this question, Becky, and hope more people respond.

On another note concerning the book. Did anyone else dislike the cover? I bought the recently reissued trade paperback and thought the cover belonged on a Harlequin romance. There has been a little discussion of this on my thread and I just put up a mini-poll about this. Check it out!

Mini-poll here.

(if I do it right) Here's a picture of the original book cover from 1962.


Personally, I like it much better. But, if you saw it on a display shelf, would it catch your eye? Maybe not. My book club had an author chat once, and her question to us was "What did you think of the cover?" Apparently, she hadn't been given any choice in the matter.

I'll have to think a little bit about who I'd be. That's a very good question.

>38 Donna828:. Donna, your comments about Leonie are very interesting and I can relate to them, absolutely. She's the character I could relate to the most. I have always been a "fixer" in much the way you describe. My Episcopal priest (called "rector" here in the midwest) once told me I was "too earnest." I chewed on that comment for a long time, wondering how it was possible to be too earnest? Well, in my 50s, I've gradually been finding out, and it's been a humbling experience, to say the least.

Leonie's experience with her parents would also probably have been humbling for her: to find out that they were "humoring" her, especially. Those parts were painful for me to read too, Donna. Although I'm beginning to be able to laugh at myself and my earnest ways, at least a little. And to give them up.

I liked Leonie for the way she was able to face up to the idea that she was being a problem to the people she was trying to fix. She could have stomped off in righteous indignation, but she didn't.

Ed said this to her: "The way you're going, you're going to give up your life for them and find out they don't appreciate you any more than if you hadn't. And don't think you can force them to--it won't work. You ought to know by now; the harder you try, the more they fight you. That's how it is, Leonie, and you might as well face it."

And she said, "All right then, I'll face it."

And yes, I hated the cover (although I liked the purple, white, and green). I put a comment over on your mini-poll.

And--newsflash for whoever did the cover--that's a morning glory, not a moon vine. Heh.

Leonie ended up being my favorite, too -- but ony after I'd read her part of the story. I didn't like her very much up to that point.

>35 porch_reader: I also felt Matthew was more than a little bit creepy. Maybe that's because there have been so many cases in the news in recent years of junior high or high school teachers and coaches having inappropriate relationships with students. I was very uncomfortable reading some parts of his story.

Count me as another who thinks the cover of the reissued trade paperback doesn't do the book justice.

I liked Mathy the best, as far as the characters go. She was so very different from the rest of her family - such a free spirit. I couldn't relate to her in any way, but I thought she was the most interesting and original, especially as a kid. In particular, I loved the part where she stole the horse and started to take it home. One question I do have is about her parentage: is her father the peddler, or is Matthew her father?

Another question I had at the end of the book relates to the incident with the peddler and the mother (blanking on her name right now). Was it consensual, or was it forced? I couldn't tell if she was feeling guilty, or if he forced her. I'm guessing the latter, but again I couldn't tell.

Jennifer, I thought Callie was a fully participating partner in the act after the wrestling match that started out as a protest, but seemed to end up as a rough kind of foreplay. I couldn't help but like Mathy, too. She was playful and fun, much like her real daddy.

Thank you so much, Terri, for posting that original cover of the book. I like that one quite well. I think this kind of a story needs a simple cover and I happen to like the green and white together. Very peaceful.

I loved this book but, for some odd reason, I don't find myself wanting to talk much about it.

However, I am enjoying reading about it.

(Really busy at work this week)

This book seems to have garnered more discussion than our last book. I know I felt sucker-punched after reading about Sweet Mister.

>38 Donna828: - Donna - You are so right about the cover looking like a bad romance. I ordered the book and was glad that I did. I'm not sure I would have picked it up off a display.

>39 tloeffler: - Terri - The old cover just seems right to me. Thanks for posting it!

>37 labwriter: - I would also add that Matthew didn't really interest me all that much. . .

Becky, that's how I felt too. I found the female characters much more interesting. But it is hard for me to identify a favorite. All of them were flawed, but forgiving of one another. I think that's why I was glad that the book began at the ending. Through it all, I knew that Callie, Jessica, Leonie, and Mary Jo ended up coming together as a family.

I think Leonie was my favorite character, too, but I identified with her for different reasons than have already been stated. I don't think I'm a "fixer" to the extent she was - and especially not at that young age. But, like her, I can't make a decision without considering the rest of the family. There is no way she would run off and elope like Jessica, or quit school and marry at age 16 like Mathy - too much disapproval from the parents. That is what I was like - I might have WANTED to run wild, but when it came right down to it, I wanted more not to displease my folks. Her Kansas City trip was the scene that caused me the most inward cringes. And in her shoes, I would also have needed "permission" before getting involved with Ed.

I think the peddler was Mathy's biological father, but I think Callie might have backed out at the last minute if he hadn't insisted on going ahead. I don't think it was a rape, but I think she was reluctant, and it wasn't completely consensual.

The old cover is better - for an updated cover, I think I'd have chosen a pastoral scene with a nice white farm house, picket fence, garden patch, and a tire swing hanging from the tree. And, of course, a trellis on the side of the garage (was it?) with the moonflowers. The purple they chose is hideous!

Sandy, I love your description of that pastoral setting. If your day job ever falls through, I'll be glad to give you a reference for a book cover designer.

>48 porch_reader:: Good point, Amy, about how the beginning gave us a reference that all would be well in the end. I'm so glad our group finally had a good "comfort" read after all the books we've read about hopelessly dysfunctional people. The Soames family was far from perfect, but they did function together as a family, warts and all.

#48, 50 Good points about knowing up front that all would be well in the end. Plus, it introduces very subtly the mystery of what happened to Mathy.

And, YES, it was nice to have a functional family, for a change!

I would first like to thank my aunt, Terri, for introducing me to this readers group. I'm glad my first read was The Moonflower Vine. This is the first time I've done a discussion online like this so if I start babbling, I apologize now.

I really enjoyed this book. There were times when I didn't want to put it down, but it was midnight and I had to work the next day. I do have to say, though, that I was very upset by the discovery of Callie and the peddler. I had to reread that part over to make sure I understood what was happening. I was really pulling for her. I felt sorry for her, a husband who at times didn't want her, children who felt they were better or deserved more. Because of this, I have to say my favorite character was Mathy. I felt she was the only one who was true to herself. She did what she wanted without thinking of the consequences or the end result. I guess in a way I envied that in Mathy. I'm the keeper of the peace in my family and many times will sacrifice my wants so that someone else will be happy.

This was a wonderful book and I will be recommending it onto friends.

Thanks again for the invite, Aunt Terri :-)

I'm SO glad you joined us, Trisha! You're right, you ARE a Leonie (and we all love you for it, but sometimes I want to slap your face and say "HEY! It's all about YOU this time!"). Which begs another question about family relationships (including those in the book): Are you that way because your brother & sister are how they are, or are they that way because of how you are? There are so many things written about a "typical" first-born, or middle child, or last-born, but look at this book. (I hope I'm remembering right--Trisha has my book!) Wasn't Jessica the first-born? And yet Leonie had more of the "typical" characteristics of a first-born.

I am not a Leonie though I am a first born. In fact, my usual reaction to her was "grrrr."

I must be more of a rebellious first born.

I've got to go back and catch up on all the discussions but Matthew, the father, was the one for whom my views changed constantly. I thought he was creepy with all that teacher/student stuff but then, when I realized his need for more intellectual matters in his life, I at least felt really sorry for him. For a relatively educated person, I could not fathom him having to do without that kind of stimulation.

Then when that guy (Ed) said that Matthew was a good man, I re-thought more about him and, in the end, I agreed with that.

I'm a recovering Leonie, and I was the second born. More significantly, perhaps, I was the only girl of three boys. My oldest brother put my parents through 12 kinds of h-e-l-l. I think that had an influence on me, making me feel like it was up to me to be the "good" kid.

I don't know about other family dynamics, but for me it was very difficult to give up the role of "the fixer," which is how I saw myself, rather than the "good" one. It took a very traumatic, humbling experience in my 50s for me to take a good hard look at myself and say, "As much as I'd like to fix this, there's nothing I can do--except maybe accept the idea that I can't do anything." I sure wish I'd learned that lesson a whole lot earlier!

Terri, honestly I think that role was "forced" onto me. Forced may be too strong a word, but that's what comes to mind. When mom and dad divorced, he looked to me to help him with my sister and brother and that was the only way I knew how. I think my sister and brother fell into their roles and who they are because of that.

I'm getting better though. I do realize that I can't "fix" everything or make everyone happy or get along. Slowly but surely :-)

It surprised me a little that Leonie was that way by the end of the book. Wasn't she the original one to fight her parents on everything and constantly ask why she was doing one thing and couldn't do another?

Welcome, Trisha! Isn't it great when we read about characters in a book and compare our lives to theirs? I guess that is the connection that keeps me reading and trying to figure out my place in the world.

Becky, I'm glad I'm not the only "recovering Leonie" in the group. Although I most identified with Leonie, I really want to be a Mathy in life.

Thank you for forwarding the newspaper article. It was dessert after reading most of The Moonflower Vine. (It came due at the library before I could finish; another LibraryThing reader needed it?!)

And thanks to the person who suggested this book. It was wonderful to read an echo of the dialect I heard in my youth (in central Missouri). The author did an amazing work of writing in a dialect without much literary precedent.

I was touched by the beautiful portrayal of adult hearts' struggles: the price of leaving the family; the ache of the temporal family unit; the adult facade versus the internal struggles.

Patricia, Welcome, and thanks for joining us! I do hope you get a chance to finish the book--get back on that library list!

Are we ready to start talking about another book? I think we said we'd try every other month, which would put the next book in April. Jennifer has been asking for a long time for us to read King of the Hill: A Memoir by A. E. Hotchner. Anyone object to reading that one next? We've got some great suggestions on our Future Suggestions thread, so we'll have to come up with some kind of methodology to keep picking, but I vote for Hotchner this time.

Thoughts?

King of the Hill: a Memoir is OK with me. The library has one copy of one book called The Boyhood Memoirs of A E Hotchner which contains both King of the Hill and its sequel, Looking for Miracles. That's it, but it's available, so I can get it. Who was A E Hotchner, anyway?

He was a St. Louis writer, really good friends with Hemingway and the late lamented Paul Newman (this is where I'd embed a nice picture of Mr. Newman from Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, if I knew how). King of the Hill is a memoir of his childhood growing up in St. Louis in the Depression. Obviously I'm happy to read it next, but if the majority of people aren't interested that's ok. It is nonfiction, which isn't everyone's favorite thing.

I like nonfiction, so King of the Hill is OK with me. What is everyone else's opinion?

Paul Newman? I'm in! I overdosed on reading memoirs a couple of years ago, but am interested in this one. We may even want to go on and read Looking for Miracles after reading the first one.

I'd be glad to read a St Louis book. The only StL book I can recall reading was Meet Me in St Louis by Sally Benson. That one was too sappy for words.

Why don't we do that then? We'll plan on discussing King of the Hill: A Memoir for April 1, then see how we feel about Looking for Miracles. We can go back to fiction in June.

And Jennifer, are there any NOT nice pictures of Paul Newman? He could make me swoon no matter how old he got. Sigh.

I've never seen a not-nice one. I think he is the best looking man of all time, even at 80.

King of the Hill sounds like a great choice! But it's going to make me want to take a field trip to St. Louis - so many good restaurants on the Hill!

Oh, please don't remind me! I miss the restaurants on the Hill (and in St. Louis in general) so so much. There is no decent, non-chain-restaurant Italian food to be found in Portland. And that bakery, the one with all the Italian pastries...

I forgot about all the great restaurants on the Hill. I'm actually going to be in St Louis in a couple of weeks - I'll make a point of suggesting that we eat there. That's all it will take - Hubby loves it as much as I do! However, I don't know the bakery - where is it?

Jennifer, I'll bet you're getting better seafood in Portand than you ever did here, though, right?

>69 jfetting:. The bakery on the hill could be Fazio's. Or it could be Vitale's. Or it might be Amighetti's. Maybe Marconi's. Lots of good Italian bakeries on the Hill.

King of the Hill A memoir. I'm in.

Just popped in here to confirm the date for the Hotchner read and was reminded about the conversation re The Hill restaurants. I said something last night to Hubby about eating there when we're in town and he said "sure" - no surprise there. But when I asked about going someplace different for a change, I got a blank stare. We always eat at Cunetto's, but I'd like to try something different this time. Any recommendations?

And just to prove that I can stay on-topic - I got my book ordered from the library and it should be here next week, so I'll have it in plenty of time for the April 1 discussion. Maybe I'll take it with me to read on the St Louis trip.

labwriter - It was Fazio's. But now I'm homesick for Amighetti's sandwiches, with the pepperocini (sp?) in the middle mmmmm.

April 1 sounds great! And let's see, Hill restaurant recommendations. I'd have said Cunetto's, too, but Charlie Gitto's is good, too. I liked Zia's a lot when I was a poor grad student. If you are up for something not-Italian, Modesto's is one of my favorite tapas restaurants ever. Ever! You'll need a reservation if you're going on a weekend.

Giovanni's on the Hill is good, and I've always loved Rigazzi's (32 oz frozen fishbowl of beer!). I've not ever been to Mama Campisi's, but I read an article the other day that said they make almost all of the toasted ravioli in the area (by hand), so that would be a good bet (if you're a toasted ravioli fan).

I ordered the Hotchner combination book, in case I really like King of the Hill: A Memoir, I'll have the other one right there!

Ditto on the Amighetti's sandwiches. With a cannoli for dessert. Yum.

I'm heading down to StL for a baseball weekend in mid-May. I love the toasted ravioli almost everywhere but there's one place near the ballpark we always stop at (Caleco's).

Love the Imo's pizza. Love the gooey butter cake.

I've never been to The Hill but have been to the Charlie Gitto's downtown location.

This thread is making me hungry. Sandy, you'll have to let us know where you decided to eat after all these wonderful recommendations. Now I'm trying to think of a good excuse for a run to St. Louis.

You don't have to be a poor grad student to like Zia's. That's my favorite "Hill" Italian restaurant. I don't like the way the tables are configured, especially in the front room, but it goes with the territory.

>76 Donna828: Donna, I have a good excuse to run to Springfield next weekend. Where should I eat there?

Terri, you will certainly want to have some Springfield-style Cashew Chicken while you're here. I am still mourning the loss of Gee's East Wind which was our favorite place to get it. I think the newspaper poll chose Mr. Yen's as their favorite, but just about any Chinese place does it up pretty well.

I like Ocean Zen on Battlefield Road for a bit more upscale eating. Hemingway's in Bass Pro is another favorite.

If you want to do Mexican, most people (with the exception of my husband) like the atmosphere and food of Mexican Villa, a Springfield institution with several different locations. The only reason my DH doesn't care for it is because they don't have fajitas on the menu.

For the utmost in Ozark cuisine (using the term loosely), there is Lambert's in Ozark, but beware of the flying rolls -- and the long waits if a tour bus gets there before you do.

What brings you to Springfield?

Donna - Throwed rolls!

Becky (is it ok if I call you that?) - Oh, you definitely don't need to be a poor grad student to like Zia's, all I meant was that it is more reasonable, price-wise, than Gitto's, for example. I agree about the tables, though. The back room is much better. And there isn't a ton of waiting room in the bar area, and it seemed like there was always a wait (probably because the food is great).

#78, 79 Terri, I don't know all the places in town like Donna does, but my 2 oldest sons both live in Springfield, and we're beginning to find some favorites. Our son, the culinary student, works at Ocean Zen, but we haven't eaten there yet. He does salads and desserts. For Italian, we like Bambino's - near the MSU campus, but off the main road so you have to call for directions - great food and good prices make it worth the effort. For pizza, we to to McSalty's on Sunshine. We had a good Mexican dinner one night at Maria's - downtown on South Ave. And of course, Lambert's is always good if you're ready for a BIG meal!

>79 Donna828: They all sound good!

I teach medical coding & billing at Sanford-Brown in St. Peters, and they've decided that they'd like for me to be a Certified Professional Coder. That requires a 5-hour exam next Saturday (I couldn't make it to the St. Louis test last week). So I'm driving down early Friday just to hang out and taking the test Saturday am, then heading home. A short trip, but I see 3-4 meals ahead of me!

>80 jfetting:. Absolutely, "Becky" is fine. You're right, Zia's much more reasonable that Gitto's. You're right, there isn't much waiting room anywhere. The last time we were there, I spent 20 minutes smashed up against a front window. Ha.

I didn't realize there was a Lambert's in Springfield--I've only gone to the one in Sikeston (any vacations that take me south, I schedule around an early lunch there!). I love it, but it is a lot of food, and I'm easily discouraged by a long wait, so I may have to wait & see. All the other places sound great! Thanks!

#84 Terri, if it is only the wait that is seriously putting you off Lambert's then let me tell you about something my husband discovered by accident last year. He had been at a business meeting in Branson and stopped at Lambert's for lunch on his way home. Because he was alone, they sent him to the front of a long line and seated him without a wait. Then he got his food right away. He's sure that he got a meal that someone else ordered because there just wasn't enough to fix his dinner after he ordered it. When he paid, he asked about it. Turns out they want professional drivers to contine stopping in, so they give preferental treatment to all single diners.

Awesome! Being a frequent single diner, I love preferential treatment!

I know you're ready to start another book, but I joined just to relate some info on Jetta Carleton. A dear friend of mine died this past year, and he and Jetta were very good life-long friends. They were classmates at Mizzou in the late '30s. As I've helped his kids sort through his collected treasures, we found a thick file of letters Jetta had written him. They span almost 60 years, ending with a returned envelope from him to Jetta with the notation that she had passed away. These letters are wonderful! Throughout them Jetta agonizes over her "immortal longing" to become a writer, to publish something someone would read. It's fun knowing that she achieved success with "The Moonflower Vine," and cheering her on as you read the letters to "stick with it Jetta, you'll make it. I've launched my own personal campaign to revive interest in her, but seems others have too -- I heard just this morning that a local club appears to be reading the book now. I have several that I pass around to prospective fans of Jetta. I just couldn't resist sharing this with you, even though February is now history.

wow! What an incredible find!

That is awesome! Thank you for sharing that with us! I think stories like that are what make this MO group so much fun. I have passed my book on to my niece, and now to one of my cousins, and when she's finished, she's passing it to her sister. I still want my mother to read it too.

Thank you again!

>87 GBaumann:: What a wonderful treasure you found! I've also heard rumors that there is another book transcript out there somewhere. Anybody know anything about it? My copy of The Moonflower Vine is also making the rounds, Terri.

Donna, see Post #11 above. It's mentioned in the Riverfront Times article, but I haven't heard any more than that.
And by the way, it was so fun to talk to you Friday night!

Duh! That's probably the "rumor" I was thinking about. I'm guessing that it is a long way from discovering a lost manuscript to publishing the book. Same here. I just wish we had thought about a get-together ahead of time and I could have planned better. We'll just have to wait until our summer book group meeting...if it ever happens. :~)

>87 GBaumann:. I love the story of the found letters. I would suggest that you might check to see if there's anyone in the English department at Missou who might be working on Carleton or who might be interested in working on her. At least someone in the department ought to be teaching Missouri literature of some sort. They ought to be teaching this novel.

I originally came here to say that I just bought 20 giant white moonflower seeds at Amazon.com for $2.97. I'll have them in my hands in a couple of days. I have a sunny spot where I'm going to try growing them in my back yard. I had to have a large silver maple removed, so with the big tree gone, my shade garden has suddenly become a sun garden. The moonflower is the first thing I'm going to try out there. Has anyone else grown them?

Also, I've suggested Carleton's book for the neighborhood book club.

Is there anything that you can't order on Amazon these days? I was wondering where I could get some Moonflower seeds. I have some green grass sprouts in the yard. We used to call this Easter grass. Whatever, I am definitely getting the itch to be digging in the dirt.

I would love to read those letters, wouldn't you?

Hi Donna. Isn't that hilarious? I went online to order those seeds, and I thought. . . maybe Amazon has them. Sure enough. Amazon is sort of like the online Walmart--you can find anything there.

And yes, I'd love to read those letters. I'm just wondering if her other papers have been archived anywhere? Maybe Jane Smiley would know. A quick check on Google didn't turn up an archive for her anywhere. She sounds like a very interesting woman.

P.S. about the Moonflower seeds. I saw a pack (Burpee) of them yesterday in the grocery store. Maybe they've always sold them, who knows, but I don't ever remember a moonflower vine.

I tried to grow moonflowers when I lived in Texas, with no success, but I'm hit and miss where gardening is concerned. I seem to remember though that you are supposed to nick and soak the seeds overnight before planting?

Some say soak, some say nick, and some say both. I thinking soaking the seeds for 8 hours should do the trick. I think one of the best tips is to put one seed in one of those little compost pots with some rich soil--and then plant the compost pot. Another site I read said that the moonflower likes very rich, well-drained soil. Plus full sun. Mulching the plant regularly would probably make it happy as well. You also want to pick back all the dying leaves and flowers.

So my plan is to plant the seed in early May when there's no chance of frost. I'll make sure I'm putting it into rich soil by dumping in a ton of compost in the bed where I plant the seeds, something I normally do anyway when I'm planting something. I'll probably also feed it some when I'm feeding some of the other plants that are growing around it.

One website suggests planting the moonflower and the morning glory in the same area--then you have both morning and evening flowers.

I hope that when they bloom, you plan to post pictures for those of us with black thumbs!

Thanks, Terri, I absolutely will post pics. Maybe I'll sit there watching them open like the family did in Moonflower Vine, only I'll watch them open with video camera in hand--then post it on YouTube. Silliness--although you never know, it might turn out to be very cool.

Just today I bought some Moonflower Vine seeds at our grocery. Will try to grow them with the thought of having a Jetta session when they bloom. My friend's kids are trying get in touch with one of Jetta's nieces in California, hoping she might have the other side of the letters' conversations. If anything develops, or if the letters are freed for reading, I'll keep you posted. Such fun!

>101 GBaumann:. How great if those letters could be available. Thanks for your efforts. I hope you'll post pics of your moonflower vine here.

I'm checking on availability of letters for excerpts if nothing else. And if I am successful with my moonflower vines, I'll try to figure out how to post photos.

Moonflower vine update.

For all of you Moonflower Vine readers, I planted some moonflower seeds a couple of weeks ago--20 of them. The package recommended that they be planted straight into the ground, which is what I did with half of them. The other half I planted in little pots.

Fourteen days later, I think I have four seeds that are showing life, 3 in pots and 1 in the ground. Seriously, these seed leaves are so strange-looking--sort of like an alien brain or something. The first one up has taken about five days for just the first leaf (mostly) open.

We've had floods of rain here and cool weather, which has undoubtedly slowed down the whole process. I brought one of the little pots inside today in hopes that it will warm up and get going.

Anywho, I hope I'll soon have these vines growing up the gazebo and that they will be picture-worthy. If so, I'll post them here.

I'm looking forward to seeing everyone's moonflower vine pictures later this summer. I decided not to try them this year, as we will be working on the outside of the house. Hopefully, I'll be able to put up a couple of new trellises as part of this project and will have a place to plant some next year.

I can't wait to see them! I love the "alien brain" description!

I put a photo of my two farthest-along moonflower vine seedlings on my profile page. These are two vines, grown from two seeds. The pot is about 3" in diameter. Whoo-hoo. All I did was soak the seeds for about 12 hours and then plant them 1/4 inch below the surface--and wait. I'll be glad to send everyone seeds next season if you send me your contact information. I have a feeling that this is the kind of plant that, once started, you never have to worry about again--self-seeding.

Way to go, Becky, of the green thumb! Your moonflower plants look healthy and ready to grow -- as soon as we get some sun! One of my favorite nurseries was supposed to put their moonflowers out this week. I don't have the patience to soak seeds and nurse baby sprouts.

#107 Very nice, Becky. Those near 90 degree temps this upcoming weekend might help, shouldn't they? (I've been paying careful attention to St Louis weather.)

Linda: Oh dear, yes, if it's going to be in the 90s (I'm trying to ignore what I know is coming), then I'll probably be able to watch these things grow in front of my eyes.

Donna, I have a feeling that next year I'll be yanking these vines out from all over my yard. I once planted a passion flower vine--wow, those things grow like crazy now all throughout my lawn. But that's OK--it's fun.

Those look great! Looking forward to watching them grow this summer - hope you'll post regular pictures.

Me, too! I'm anxious to see them when they get outside and start REALLY growing!

I'll post updates on my profile page. No pressure!--ha. I've given several of these to people in the neighborhood. I sure hope this is a "nice" plant and not one of those aggressive things that takes over everything. Actually, from Jetta Carleton's description, I think it will be very nice.

My goodness! What a find to discover this discussion board (tonight)! I haven't had time to read the posts above in depth as I plan to, but I really appreciate all the thought that has gone into them.

I have been participating in a book group in St. Louis (Creve Coeur) for about 10 years now, and we read The Moonflower Vine quite recently. I enjoyed it immensely, particularly the local flavor that exuded from the pages. You can't make that stuff up. I'm headed with my husband tomorrow for East Prairie in the boothill and am going to give my mother-in-law my copy of the book.

I'm not a Missouri native but was obsessed with the Laura Ingalls Wilder series (the books, not the tv series) as a young girl and of course she settled in MO. I've lived in MO now for 13 years and it's my home. I particularly am intrigued by the history of St. Genevieve (I think I've read all the historical accounts available) and I am interested in Civil War history in MO.

As an aside (I don't want to emphasize this point), I trained as a psychiatrist and thought the characters in Moonflower Vine were intriguing and realistic. The author in my opinion was wonderful in portraying the different characters, their motivations and their conflicts. I think that it takes wonderful talent to achieve such portrayals.

Welcome, Susan! Always glad to have someone new aboard! I'm glad you enjoyed The Moonflower Vine--I think we all felt the same way. And I agree that the characters were intriguing and realistic. I could actually picture my mother's family saying and doing the things that the Soames family did!
Hope you join us for our June read!

Hi Susan, we're glad to have another Missourian here. Does your local book group try to read books with a Missouri setting or author the way we do? I was afraid we would run out of good choices, but we have a lengthy list that should keep us going for some time.

Next up is When the Mississippi Ran Backwards. I think our discussion will begin June 15. We'd love to have you join us.

Hi Susan. Welcome to the group. I live in Webster Groves--transplanted about 20 years ago from Colorado. We like it here very much. The Midwest suits us, it turns out.

Re: my moonflower seedlings. The cool weather slowed them down, and now the sudden heat is threatening to do them in altogether. I have several seedlings coming up out of the ground, and I've had to cover them during the day when the sun is hitting them full-force. The seedlings in the pots I just keep moving into and out of the shade. I think they would be fine if they'd gotten a good start and then been able to acclimate to the heat gradually. They'll make it, I think, but I didn't know this was going to be a full-time job. Heh.

re: my moonflower vine. The second trellis is up and all the moonflower vine plants are in the ground. I sowed some seeds directly into the ground and a planted a few in pots. The ones in pots are maybe a couple of days ahead of the ones put directly into the ground--no real difference. I got seven plants out of 20 seeds. One plant I thinned out deliberately from the pots. Some of the seeds in the ground may have been washed out by a big rain.

I planted these in two different areas to see which one is the better spot for them. I really hope the ones planted by my gazebo grow like crazy--I'd love to have the whole thing covered with moonflower vines. We'll see. So far these things are pretty slow growers, but I don't expect them to stay that way.

I posted a couple of pictures on my profile page.

Hi Becky...your moonflower garden looks heavenly. Such a beautiful arrangement. I hope they all grow and reseed, etc. so you can be known as the Moonflower Lady.

I have only one plant in a big pot on my deck. My plan is for it to trail up and over the wrought iron railing. Not nearly as artisitc as your setting, but it will have to do. When (*she says optimistically*) it gets a little larger and more interesting, I'll post a picture for you.

Inspired by Becky, I planted some Moonflower seeds last month and they have actually sprouted! My first moonflower vines ever:

What a sweet, well-behaved looking Moonflower Vine you have there, Marise. Mine started out that way, but has turned into the reincarnation of Audrey, Jr. from "Little Shop of Horrors." AJ has out-of-control tendrils that grab onto things that she isn't supposed to! I guess she's in her wayward adolescent stage as she hasn't produced a flower yet. If and when that happens, I'll try to capture it on film and post a picture.

>120 marise:, 121. Oh hey, look at that! I know what you mean, these plants start out slow, but they certainly do catch up. I posted a pic of today's version of my moonflower on my profile page, here.

I don't know where you live, Marise, but if it's somewhere hot, then your moonflower will be going gangbusters soon. We've had 99 degree heat with about 80% humidity the last few days. The moonflower likes it, but I can't say the same for me--ha.

>122 labwriter: I'm in Chesterfield. I heard, and I'm hoping it's wrong, that it is supposed to be 100 degrees today!

eta: Took a look at your profile picture and WOW! It has really grown!

The leaves keep growing in size, particularly if the vine is in a place where it gets a lot of sun. Then what happens is that little leaves start sprouting out of the main shoot. I think this vine is probably going to completely overtake the gazebo; I only hope it's not the sort of plant that takes over the whole yard in years to come, with lots of "volunteers." Oh well, it's been fun to watch it grow and I can hardly wait for the blooms.

I heard that too about our temps today. Woe is me. I plan to pretend that it's 30 below outside--I would stay inside if that were the case, so I shouldn't feel too badly about staying inside when it's 100, right? I'm not "doing" heat very well this summer.

Your plants look great! It's a good thing they like heat and humidity, because we've got a lot of that all over the place. It's mid-90's in KC today, but maybe not as humid as you are on the other side. I'm still running the AC full blast, though. Can't wait for the pictures of flowers!

I'm with you guys about the heat. My father bought me a new deck chair so I could sit outside during my "recuperation" and I haven't used it once. I go out on the deck, sit down, and get right back up again and escape to the A/C. What a baby I am.

Also looking forward to the flowers!

<img width="300" src="http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af15/labwriter/Moonflower%20Vine/22Aug_Moonflower.jpg"

Moonflower vine, Aug. 22

The flowers are beautiful, Becky!

This moonflower vine has been so much fun. I don't know why I had never even heard of it before. I love going out every night and seeing a whole new crop, and the smell is amazing.

It reminds me of fireworks! Beautiful!

I read an article today that Jetta Carleton's second published novel, Clair de Lune (no touchstone yet) will be released in March.

Of the Missouri Readers books I've read (granted, I don't read them all), I think her The Moonflower Vine was my favorite, along with This Is Graceanne's Book.

I'm eager to read this new Jetta Carleton novel. Not sure if there's any Missouri connection to it.

Ah, so the lost manuscript wasn't imaginary after all? In any event, I'll be reading this as soon as it comes out. I agree, Linda, that The Moonflower Vine was my favorite Missouri Readers' book!

Donna, it is set in SW Missouri "on the edge of the Ozark Mountains."

Here's the HarperCollins promo on it:

http://www.harpercollins.com/books/Clair-de-Lune-Jetta-Carleton?isbn=97800620891...