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1richardbsmith
Luke 9:28-43a
About eight days after Peter had acknowledged Jesus as the Christ of God, Jesus took with him Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. And while he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became dazzling white.
Suddenly they saw two men, Moses and Elijah, talking to him. They appeared in glory and were speaking of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions were weighed down with sleep; but since they had stayed awake, they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him.
Just as they were leaving him, Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three dwellings, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah"--not knowing what he said. While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were terrified as they entered the cloud.
Then from the cloud came a voice that said, "This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!" When the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and in those days told no one any of the things they had seen.
On the next day, when they had come down from the mountain, a great crowd met him. Just then a man from the crowd shouted, "Teacher, I beg you to look at my son; he is my only child.
Suddenly a spirit seizes him, and all at once he shrieks. It convulses him until he foams at the mouth; it mauls him and will scarcely leave him. I begged your disciples to cast it out, but they could not."
Jesus answered, "You faithless and perverse generation, how much longer must I be with you and bear with you? Bring your son here." While he was coming, the demon dashed him to the ground in convulsions. But Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, healed the boy, and gave him back to his father. And all were astounded at the greatness of God.
About eight days after Peter had acknowledged Jesus as the Christ of God, Jesus took with him Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. And while he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became dazzling white.
Suddenly they saw two men, Moses and Elijah, talking to him. They appeared in glory and were speaking of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions were weighed down with sleep; but since they had stayed awake, they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him.
Just as they were leaving him, Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three dwellings, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah"--not knowing what he said. While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were terrified as they entered the cloud.
Then from the cloud came a voice that said, "This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!" When the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and in those days told no one any of the things they had seen.
On the next day, when they had come down from the mountain, a great crowd met him. Just then a man from the crowd shouted, "Teacher, I beg you to look at my son; he is my only child.
Suddenly a spirit seizes him, and all at once he shrieks. It convulses him until he foams at the mouth; it mauls him and will scarcely leave him. I begged your disciples to cast it out, but they could not."
Jesus answered, "You faithless and perverse generation, how much longer must I be with you and bear with you? Bring your son here." While he was coming, the demon dashed him to the ground in convulsions. But Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, healed the boy, and gave him back to his father. And all were astounded at the greatness of God.
2Lori_OGara
Just wondering, what Bible translation do you use?
4Lori_OGara
OH that is why it sounded like I just read it...LOL I use that site too...for other things.
5richardbsmith
Some of the immediately evident differences in the Lukan version of the Transfiguration:
1. The content of the discussion between Jesus, Moses and Elijah is given
2. They discuss the coming events in Jerusalem in terms of an exodus which is to be fulfilled.
(The translation in the OP refers to a "departure," but the Greek uses the word "exodus." It is not clear to me the reason a translation might avoid using exodux for its clear significance, but most translations do not use exodus.
The KJV and NKJV translate "decease." Maybe I'm missing something - the word is exodus, why not use it? Maybe someone can explain.)
3. The voice refers to Jesus as My Chosen rather than My Beloved.
4. Jesus does not command silence, rather the disciples on their own do not speak of the event
5. The disciples do not question about the coming of Elijah immediately after the Transfiguration
How might these differences be understood in terms of Luke's insights into the gospel message and Jesus' ministry?
1. The content of the discussion between Jesus, Moses and Elijah is given
2. They discuss the coming events in Jerusalem in terms of an exodus which is to be fulfilled.
(The translation in the OP refers to a "departure," but the Greek uses the word "exodus." It is not clear to me the reason a translation might avoid using exodux for its clear significance, but most translations do not use exodus.
The KJV and NKJV translate "decease." Maybe I'm missing something - the word is exodus, why not use it? Maybe someone can explain.)
3. The voice refers to Jesus as My Chosen rather than My Beloved.
4. Jesus does not command silence, rather the disciples on their own do not speak of the event
5. The disciples do not question about the coming of Elijah immediately after the Transfiguration
How might these differences be understood in terms of Luke's insights into the gospel message and Jesus' ministry?
6vpfluke
I think Exodus in English refers more pertinently to the events in the Hebrew Scriptures, whereas departure translates the Greek word which does not inherently refer to a grand event. Exodos in Greek, according to my Liddell and Scott, simply means 'a going out', although it can also be used like the Latin 'exitus' to mean an end, close or decease.
7richardbsmith
vpfluke,
I think you are correct. exodos is the proper word to convey "departure" in a basic sense.
It may be that its application to the Exodus from Egypt was not intended in any way by Luke. "exodos" might not even have been understood at all as a reference to Moses in the 1st century.
This is probably an example of back reading connotations of the translation onto the translated word - doubly a problem because of the language differences and the period differences.
Thanks,
I think you are correct. exodos is the proper word to convey "departure" in a basic sense.
It may be that its application to the Exodus from Egypt was not intended in any way by Luke. "exodos" might not even have been understood at all as a reference to Moses in the 1st century.
This is probably an example of back reading connotations of the translation onto the translated word - doubly a problem because of the language differences and the period differences.
Thanks,
8richardbsmith
In the second part, Jesus heals a boy from demonic convulsions. Luke's version is much shortened from the Mark account. The two make for an interesting comparison.
My question has to do with the last verse in the Luke account: "And all were astounded at the greatness of God."
This replaces questions about the disciples' ability raised in Mk 9.29.
Just looking at the response of the crowd in Luke, to praise God for the healing at last.
My question is why the crowd would praise God for the healing, but not blame God for the convulsions in the first place?
My question has to do with the last verse in the Luke account: "And all were astounded at the greatness of God."
This replaces questions about the disciples' ability raised in Mk 9.29.
Just looking at the response of the crowd in Luke, to praise God for the healing at last.
My question is why the crowd would praise God for the healing, but not blame God for the convulsions in the first place?
9rolandperkins
On #8, last sentence (question):
I would guess that the crowd took demoniac possession for g ranted -- as something not common, but with instances of it being well enough known that they didn't cause surprise.
Perhaps a few did "blame God", but the "conventional wisdom" would be that such things are caused by enemies of God, demons.
Some may have asked why God doesn't intervene in person and summarily destroy the demons. If there were those who blamed God, or questioned his not intervening, the Gospel writers would have no inclination to record those (probably peculiar) interpretations of the situation. But, I think most would accept that God might have a human agent.
I would guess that the crowd took demoniac possession for g ranted -- as something not common, but with instances of it being well enough known that they didn't cause surprise.
Perhaps a few did "blame God", but the "conventional wisdom" would be that such things are caused by enemies of God, demons.
Some may have asked why God doesn't intervene in person and summarily destroy the demons. If there were those who blamed God, or questioned his not intervening, the Gospel writers would have no inclination to record those (probably peculiar) interpretations of the situation. But, I think most would accept that God might have a human agent.
