Reality-check on new UI?

Here's a new top-of-the-catalog bar I'm working on.



Is it obvious what these might do?

I think so. Or at least, I was able to figure them out.

I think they're okay, especially if they have hover over text. I was able to figure them out, too. I didn't find them particularly intuitive (except for the tags) and had to double check the current catalog bar to get a clue. Not sure what the "All Books" pull-down menu would be for.

> 1

No.

The printer is obvious. I think the third from the left is "tags"?? But the first two, I haven't a clue. I'm not sure about "All Books", since I can't see what else is in that drop down list.

1. Small cover icons??
2. Text only??
3. Tags
4. What lilithcat said.
5. Yep, printer is obvious.

The only ones I could figure out are tags and print.

Is it cover view, list view, and tags on the left? What do I win?

Not sure what would be in the drop-down, though.

I like it, it looks cleaner.

Covers
List format
Tags

All book >
Your library
Wish list
(and maybe collections generally, but we're going to start with a binary distinction)

Print

I figured out what they mean; however, I don't think that they are obvious or intuitive, especially for people new to the site.

omgwtfbbq! he said wish list!

windows/portraits (*) ; text ; leftenant/military degree/shoulder strap/label ; Russian ; printer

(*) Though, most often, portraits are not square, Methinks.

Oooo collections.

Also, I like the existing list/cover view icons instead. Tags/All books/Print are fine.

Wish list
(and maybe collections generally, but we're going to start with a binary distinction)

Now I'm excited.

Yeah, I think I could figure it out. Especially if I could noodle around with it for a bit.

I like how 'Wish List' was just casually slipped into the conversation. YeeHAA!

I thought the Icons were fairly intuitive, and with tool tips I think they'll work great.

OK, I could admit to starting to get a bit excited at the prospect of wishlists, as well.

I failed ot even work out tags. Though with hover text it wouldn't be too hard to get used to.

For a wishlist I'll put up with any amount of pretty icons to decipher.

>11 boekerij:

One of the big problems with "obvious" icons is that even if they might be obvious when dealing with one language, they might get the user quite puzzled when he doesn't speak that language. Worse : he can't even look them up in a dictionary !

I first learned about this usability hurdle when dealing with a Dutch origin English language programming environment/tool that was using "easy" icons. One couldn't find out what some of those icons meant, unless one thought about Dutch language imagery. Hey, but the tool was targeted at an English language audience !

Nothing wrong with metaphors. All of us are using them all the time. But they might be quite cultural and/or very language dependent though.

Think about e.g. the English language expression : "It's raining cats and dogs." Faultless. Then again, people speaking different languages might not get the relation between pets and rain. Frankly speaking : it has absolutely nothing to do with cats neither with dogs, has it ? Different languages have it raining pipe-stems (sic, Dutch), or ends of ropes (sic, French), or other weird things. Methinks the latter are quite reasonable metaphors, aren't they. Cats and dogs ! Pets ! Imagine ! That's really odd ! YMMV.

Most children in the world might think that a football is round, as other balls are, too. Staring at an image of an American football ball, they might not get that it is meant to depict a ball--any ball at all. Then again, the latter might be the better image when dealing with American children only. Even everyday things and toys might have different shapes depending on who and where you are.

This is an important lesson in usability, Methinks.

Some very obvious images are not that obvious at all. YMMV.

I just picked myself up off the floor - Wishlist - I can't wait!

1st button: Cover view
2nd button: List view
3rd button: Tags
4th button: Show them all
5th button: View printable catalog

My guessing.

Not obvious but I did finally figure it out.

Maybe there should be two options that we chould pick from, like with affinity - text or icons.

It took me a minute to figure out what first two icons were, but I did figure it out, and if they had hover text, it would be fine.

Design wise, I like it a little better than what's there now. Also, it seems like the colors are different, and I definitely like the new colors better.

When should we look for this? (And, by extension, when should we look for wish lists?)

#19 On heavy rain.

Some in North England say it is raining stair-rods - which at least makes the same kind of sense as the Dutch and French expressions. Elsewhere people might say siling it down (which is probably from Old Norse).

Anyway onto the icons. I kind of got them fairly early - the first two are used fairly frequently elsewhere. The tag icon I always stumble on, I do get flashes of should epaulettes as you did.

Would it be possible or desirable to allow the non-English versions of LT to have their own localised icons?

I like the look of them :-)

bluesalamanders: the new icons are colorless. :(

I dunno, infiniteletters, I like "colorless" better than the old brown.

When: Not for a week or two. It requires some rewriting.

amancine: The cover view had colors though. :/

bandaids!! or , um, table fomat?
text only
for sale, or tags
'all books'
printer (only because it's similar to the MSWindows icon)

> 8

All book >
Your library
Wish list

All books in my catalogue? All books on the site?

Oh. I see what you mean now, infiniteletters. I do like that old one with the colors better.

Love the idea of collections and wishlists; couldn't figure out the icons (except for print and tags). What's wrong with words???? Or at least, have hover-over explanations.

rebeccanyc: international is the problem with words. then again, international can be the problem with icons too.

Tim said wishlist!

I'll forgive the other UI sins for a wishlist! ("Cover view" and "list view" were non-obvious, though given that I know what options exist I figured them out. I don't know how intuitive they would be in the space of all possible representations.)

I couldn't figure out the icons, but then I am not a fan of icons anyway. I fail to see how they are all that "user-friendly" if they have to be explained.

Hover text would help, but that leads to carpal tunnel syndrome. Any possibility of letting users choose whether to display icons or text?

I like them and had no problems understanding them - but maybe that's because I use the Mac OS X Finder all the time. ;)

For non-English users they're at least as good as the current English-only buttons.

27 infiniteletters -

I was talking about the overall colors, not the colors within the icons. I am indifferent to the interior colors, I admit.

Upon closer inspection, what I was noticing was the blue (as opposed to current yellow). That made the whole thing look different. That I like a lot.

>maybe that's because I use the Mac OS X Finder

I'm shocked, shocked that you would compare the two.

I have to admit, I thought the tag was a pencil. I get it now.

I hope we'll still be able to have different programmable viewing options for the columns we want to show.

Oh, yeah, and WISHLIST!!!!!!!

What's wrong with the tag button ?

It's using a different meaning of the word tag. Because other languages haven't got a word that has the same ambiguity as is having the English language word tag, if the image, or even a clear tag image, makes sense at all, the latter is restricted to English language only.

Are they wearing melons ?

The same way, Thingamambrarians loving the Asterix comic strip albums, might not understand -- nor even remark -- each and every gag that's in the images. Take e.g. IIRC when the heroes are in England, Obelix asking Asterix why those people are wearing melons on their heads and one sees local people wearing melon halves indeed. Is this funny ? I don't know. YMMV. Though, if one speaks French, one can perfectly well understand what's happening. The French language name for a bowler hat is un chapeau melon or in short : un melon, literally : a melon. That's what those odd English people are wearing : des melons (melons/bowler hats). The Asterix comic strip image is using the litteral meaning of un melon : the English are wearing a halve of a fruit on top of their head : a melon. I do not know whether in English language editions of the album, Obelix is pointing at and asking about this funny headdress. In English, it makes no sense at all and readers most probably wouldn't understand. Have a close look at the image, though : the English are wearing melons--not bowler hats, but the fruit--indeed.

Why this quite extential example ? Methinks it is quite comparable to what's happening with the tag icon (even if one could recognise it as a tag image). Asking people about fruit and showing them a bowler hat, French language people would know at a glance it's a melon, for it is--in French, that is. People not speaking French might be rather puzzled though. This is equal to the raining pets (cats and dogs), and to the ambiguity of i.a. the English language word tag indeed.

Hey, and what about "read" ? (*)

(*) Cf. Translating LibraryThing? (General Talk) : read != read (Okt 23, 2006) -- bumped up several times and rottening still.

Is this a complaint ? Who knows. Then again, some might get to the conclusion that LT doesn't care that much about intranslatables. This might be a pity. YMMV.

I like them. Am I in the minority in that? *shrug* I don't care. I actually like them better then the current ones, especially the "tag" icon, looks more like a tag to me! lol

The most frequent option I use is toggling between different display styles A-E.
Will display styles still be happening with the new icons? Which icon does this?

> 43

It's not a matter of "liking". It's a question of whether they are understandable. It's apparent from this thread that the icons under consideration (or at least some of them) are not readily understandable to a significant portion of users. And that is not a good thing.

If an old person may make a grumpy observation, icons are probably more intuitive if you've been dealing with them for a larger portion of your life. :-)

Btw, if that tag had a string to tie it onto something (I can't see one, but I do have poor eyesight), I might have recognized it. #2 is obviously some sort of bar code. I thought the printer was the old "power edit" icon. *LOL*

Very interesting...a new tag icon on the "top of the catalog" bar...and it's grouped with the icons for "cover view" and "list view". Does this mean you're developing a new "tag view" feature for browsing our catalogs? How will this work? Will this be in addition to or instead of the current tag page?

42>
Apologies for going off topic...
I'm curious what the literal translations of non-English words for "tag" (a paper label used for identifying physical objects) and "tag" (a word or phrase used for labelling non-physical objects) are. As an English speaker, I'm surprised that different words would be used, because for me it's the same meaning of the same word, just extended from the physical realm to the non-physical -- there's no ambiguity at all. I would have expected other languages to just directly translate "tag" and also use their word for (a paper label used for identifying physical objects) to mean (a word or phrase used for labelling non-physical objects).

For the icons themselves, there were all clear to me (I'm sure I've seen those symbols for icon and list views somewhere else), but I hadn't guessed what else would be in the All Books dropdown. Wishlists! Yay!

> "Cover view" and "list view" were non-obvious, though given that I know what options exist I figured them out.

Once a new user knows which icon stands for what the text isn't necessary any more, is it? So either have the text "on mouse over" or have a "(what?)" link in the toolbar that either adds text under the icons or goes to a help page?

What I would find helpful would be a way to see which fields I chose for which display style without having to switch through them all. Edit: but only if it's really easy to code ;-)

>49 sunny: "a way to see which fields I chose for which display style"

Yes, indeed! Perhaps in the edit display styles page allow assignment of a name to each style (instead of just A B C) and then have a dropdown of display styles next to the All Books dropdown in the sample. (I defined a couple display styles, but never use them because I don't remember what they are.)

Hmmm.. maybe get rid of the cover/list/tag view icons, and have the choice of cover/list/tag view be a per-style option in the display styles list? Then just have the dropdown, populated with a couple default styles (translated to user's language!). E.g. Cover View, List by Title, List by Author, List by Tag. The view should also allow specification of the fields to sort by.

Actually, while the tag icon was obviously a tag to me, I have no guess what the tag view would look like. Is it just another list, sorted by tags? Grouped by tags? A tag cloud? (If it's a cloud view, then using tag for the icon seems wrong, since couldn't you also have an author cloud, or a year cloud? Maybe the icon should be some sort of cloud. Not serious.)

#48

Sure, in English tag is an extended meaning of tag. In other languages the equivalent word might be an extension of a completely different word with completely different images, as boekerij is explaining (from an other point of view).

In Finnish, we either use some derivative of "sana", meaning 'word' (asiasana, avainsana, hakusana) or, informally, just loan the English word "tag", (tagi, tägi). When Finnish people are using the word tag in Finnish, they often even don't know the original, concrete meaning of this word. They might have learned it in an IT context not knowing about other uses. Even if they do know it, it is not the first thing that pops in the mind.

Even if I think the new icons look quite nice, they far from obvious. Please give us a text choice or at least hovering text!

In Dutch tag can mean two things:

1) the label you hang onto your suitcase when going on holiday. Although the airport calls them tags, people call them labels.

2) trefwoord. A word of phrase to describe books, CD's, etc.

3) those things soldiers and pets wear for identification

It's clear to me where the tag icon stands for. You hang a tag onto something, and on this site it's a book.

simple, clean, obvious. I like them.

ditto. got them right away. like the looks. and the wishlist and/or collections feature will be a blast!

'Tags' seemed pretty obvious for what it means, but I'm at a loss for what it would do. There's no 'tags' button on the existing top-of-the-catalogue bar, but there is the 'tags' tab in the site header, and then there's the option to include tags as a field in the five catalogue-view settings, though I can't see how the latter could be turned into a button. Is that tags-tab going to be turned into a button on the catalogue-tab page? Or is the new tags button going to be a new feature entirely?

As for the "cover{/icon}" and "list" buttons, those were my first interpretations, but I was also fairly unsure of them.

Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer the text headings to the icons. This is LibraryThing, more of the books cataloged here are text only compared to picture books. Text seems more in spirit with the purpose of the site. Just my two cents.

> 47,50,55

I remember reading not that long ago an LT discussion thread in which a member requested a "tab view" of their catalog and Tim seemed to respond with interest. That was the first thing that came to mind when I saw the grouping of icons above. Unfortunately, I neither remember exactly how that "tab view" would work, nor am I able to find that talk thread. Does anybody remember more about this?

> 56

Although I too like the icon/text combinations that currently appear at the top of the catalog page, they do take up a lot of space. One could only add so many of these before running out of room. Another possibility might be to combine these three button into a single button that displays the icon/text combination for the most recently used view mode. The user can then click on the button to return to that mode or select a small down-arrow to the right of the button to get a drop-list of all available modes. Just an idea...

>51 qu1d:

I am entirely with you. Though I do not speak Finnish--sorry--I understand Finnish is using the same image as in e.g. French (Mot-clé) or Dutch (Trefwoord) or German (Stichwort).

I know that at present, German edition of LT is using "Tag" indeed, which is quite odd and not obvious at all, for the word "Tag" exists in plain German, too, meaning "Day" (der Tag).

Have a look at what i.a. GirlFromIpanema said months ago :
-----
§ ...and right away we're in the middle of a discussion about
§ translation...! :-)
§ Should we go for "cool" in translation or for "understandable"?
§ "Tag" would be short, "cool", whereas "Stichwort" is..., well,
§ German. But it would be immediately recognisable and
§ understandable even for non-librarians coming to the site.
§ "tag" is a word that the average German probably won't
§ know right away (I myself learned it rather late).
-----
(LibraryThing in German : Guidelines? (1 okt 2006), extract.)

I couldn't agree more.

I am sorry I cannot agree with what royalsophietje (Message 52) writes.

She is taking the "cool" part, using a foreign word instead of a Dutch language one. What's more, and as qu1d (Message 51) knows from Finnish, too, most people using "cool" foreign words in pretending to be "cool", do not know their meaning. That's no problem, for they are "cool", aren't they?

This is what the most recent edition of Van Dale Groot woordenboek van de Nederlandse taal [VD14] (2005) reads about "Tag" :
-----
§ tag
§
§ tag (geen afbreking)
§
§ /tE:k/, /tEk/
§
§ de (m.); -s
§ Eng.
§
§ 1 · graffititekening of -tekst die fungeert als handtekening
§ van de maker
§ 2 · (computerterm) opmaakcode voor het structureren
§ van (platte) tekst (bv. <html> aan het begin van
§ een HTML-pagina)
-----
(VD14, "tag".)

The "Eng." part means this is a foreign word (English).

The 1st meaning is about a graffiti picture or text being used as its creator's signature. The 2nd meaning is about markup code for structuring plain text, as with "<html>" at the start of a HTML page.

That's what the Dutch language dictionary says--in full. Final.

I think royalsophietje (Message 52) is making things up. I am puzzled. She is mixing up English and Dutch, which some consider to be cool--and seems to have some difficulties in counting, too. I know that in some circles, the latter is considered to be quite cool, too. YMMV.

However, royalsophietje may be right indeed in saying that at the airport, at Dutch airports, too, crew might use the word "tag", meaning : "a cardboard, plastic, metal, etc marker used for identification or classification" (*). Take into account, though, that those crew do not even try nor pretend to use Dutch, but are using English instead (or at least trying to do so).

(*) Cf. The Penguin English Dictionary, 2nd ed. (2003), entry "tag^1, 1 b", p. 1432.

Mind that royalsophietje (Message 52) is missing one of both meaning of the foreign word "tag" in Dutch, and that she is inventing some different meanings that are unknowh to VD14.

FYI : the latter, VD14, Van Dale, 14th ed. (2005), that is, is the latest edition of what is commonly refered to as "De Dikke Van Dale" (The Fat Van Dale). This is one of the best known general use Dutch dictionaries and it is widely considered as one of the most trustworthy present day Dutch language dictionaries.

Then again, some translators/"correctors" are trying to use as many English words as possible, no matter what language is supposed to be used. They might think this is quite cool. I don't.

One of the really cool things about different languages it that each of them has got its own and proper thought system, thus revealing a different understanding of reality by showing its proper viewing angle on it, thus helping in getting a better, broader and more profound understanding of reality indeed. That's one of the beauties of (different) languages--and it's very interesting, too.

I remember that when I was a child and doing my homework, it came in quite handy--for easy reference--to have my mother nearby while she was cooking. Whenever I was dealing with foreign languages and asking her (in Dutch) : "Mom, what does the word (foreign language word) mean ?", her first answer would be questions : "What phrase is it used in ?" and : "What is the context ?". Don't take this wrong. My mother knew that foreign language quite well. That's why she knew that there were far too many possible answers and different meanings. Out of the blue--when not having any context, that is--most of the possible answers would be completely useless at best--and probably completely wrong. Therefore, indeed, the short and easy answer is : There is no easy answer. It all depends.

Let's have a closer look at the English language noun "tag" (Mind that in English, "tag" can be a verb as well.)

This is what some not too extended dictionary (1 v., 1642 p.) has got with its entry "tag" :

-----
§ tag^1 /tag/ noun 1a a piece of hanging
§ or attached material; specif a flap or loop on a garment
§ by which to hang it up, or that carries information such as washing
§ instructions. b a cardboard, plastic or metal, etc marker
§ used for identification or classification: The price tags were
§ hidden under the boxes the rings were in. c in
§ computing, a label attached to data. 2. = ELECTRONIC TAG.
§ 3a a saying or maxim; a trite quotation used for superficial
§ effect : How does that old Latin tag go? Quis custodiet ipsos
§ custodes? b a recurrent or charasteristic verbal
§ expression. c a final speech or line, e.g. in a play or joke,
§ esp one that serves to clarify a point, sum up a moral point,
§ or create a dramatic effect. d the refrain of a song.
§ 4a a loose hanging piece of torn cloth; a tatter. b a
§ piece of matted wool or hair. 5 a rigid binding on an end
§ of a shoelace. 6a a descriptive or identifying word or
§ phrase accompanying or replacing a name. b a personal
§ symbol, typically a pseudonym, sprayed in paint in a public place
§ by a graffiti writer. 7 a decorative elaboration or flourish,
§ e.g. in a person's signature; a PARAPH. 8. the tip of an
§ animal's tail, esp if of a different colour to the rest of the
§ tail. 9 a small piece of bright material, e.g. tinsel, round
§ the shank of the hook at the end of the body of an artificial
§ fishing fly. [Middle English tagge, perhaps of
§ Scandinavian origin]
§
§ tag^2 verb [...]
§
§ tag^3 noun 1 a game in which one
§ player chases others and tries to make one the next chaser by
§ touching them. 2 the act of tagging (one's partner) in TAG
§ WRESTLING [origin unknown]
§
§ tag^4 verb trans [...]
-----
(source : The Penguin English Dictionary, 2nd ed. (2005), v° "tag", p. 1432. ISBN 0-140-51533-X.)

Wow ! That's quite some different possible meanings, it seems to me.

What does the word "tag" mean ? How does one translate it into (pick any language) ? Well, it all depends. "What phrase is it used in ?" -- "What is the context ?"

Just sticking with PED2, v° tag^1, 1a (see above), Dutch language would use either : "lits", "litsje", "lis", "lus", "lusje", "haak", "haakje", etc. (PED2, tag^1, 1a, 1 : "a flap or loop on a garment by which to hang it up"), either e.g. : "wasetiket" (PED2, tag^1, 1a, 2 : "a flap or loop on a garment (...) that carries information such as washing instructions"), etc. Remember this paragraph is dealing with PED2, v° tag^1, 1a only. The English language word "tag" has got quite some more different meanings. Even PED2 might not catch them all.

If people choose to use the English language LT edition, that's OK. Then again, I do not think that it is OK when they want and try making different language editions English language, too. No matter whether they are so proud that they know what e.g. "tag" means--or that they think they do--the word "tag" is no Dutch, neither French, neither (add at wish), nor does its meaning fit what it is supposed to mean in LT. Smarter people might add : "But Tag is plain German, though"--and right so. Please add that the (plain) German word "Tag" means "Day". This doesn't fit LT's English language edition meaning of "Tag", does it ?

boekerij,

If you indeed look up the word tag in the Dutch dictionary, you won't find the meanings I posted in my message above. You will find them in an English dictionary, but that doesn't mean it has no Dutch meanings. But those meanings are correctly used in the Netherlands, although you will find most meanings under other Dutch words in the Dutch dictionary.

But the point of my message was (if you go back to my post and reread it carefully): it is clear that 'tags' are something you hang onto an object. On this site: books.

And I am for the use of the correctly Dutch word trefwoord.

Lightning bolt?

Edit columns?

I'm guessing the lightning bolt is power edit. Edit columns would be what we currently know as the "edit" link for display styles. :-)

Edit columns brings up another register, allowing you to choose between display styles. I'm going to provide some presets, with names (eg., Summary, Bibliographic, Opinion), and allow you to make up some of your own. The register stays up as long as you want it. But has a close box.

PS: "Change columns" might be better.

Lightning bolt = Power edit. Not worse than now. I'm not as concerned to have the text next to it. It's a power-user feature.

I like the iTunes-ish search box.

Yeah, no changes there. It's just how search boxes look on Safari...

Much clearer. Thank you.

Tim, I know that power edit is an advanced feature but putting it in the same group as print is sending a visual cue that it is of the same class of function - namely something that is useful to all, maybe even something to do with printing.

Would it be possible to have to option of only having icons, no text? Because that's how I generally prefer things, as long as I understand (or can figure out) the icons. Well, with hover text. Or is it just going to be the same for everyone?

Edit: I do understand same-for-everyone is easier, I'm just saying :)

>69 andyl:

I agree. The printing and power edit buttons should be separated.

>65 timspalding:

Lightning bolt = Power edit. Not worse than now

I'm not sure I agree with that, Tim. Presently, the icon includes a pencil, which is used elsewhere on the site (for instance, here in the forums) and generally to indicate an edit function. I understand the idea that lightning=power, but the "edit" part is less obvious than with the current (no pun intended) icon.

put a pencil in the lighting bolt

I thought the List, Cover, and Tag views were easily recognizable without the text; but, it is clear from the comments that my opinion isn't unanimously shared. I think this new bar looks great and while I don't need a wish list it's exciting that those who do want it are finally getting it.

I like it, I like it a lot!
Eoin

I just compared the new version with the old. I then tried changing screen resolution to the limit of 800x600. With the old version, this just forces the screen to require the horizontal slider. The new version looks to have the same width of buttons. It might be nice to check that the end result does not result in the slider appearing for those with small or low res monitors.

Another point might be to try and combine the search elements on the right-hand side of the bar in the same format as the buttons on the left. I realise that this would be three elements of different types, but it would look prettier in my eyes. The search entry box looks to be a pixel or two higher/taller than the other two search buttons.

Looks good, except the image is too wide for the screen, and requires horizontal scrolling.

Can't wait to see how the "wishlist" feature works.

Size: The actual thing is dynamic. That's just me doing a screen-shot of it.

Yes, but it still requires scrolling on the 800x600 resolution, because all the whitespace gets used up.

I liked the A B C D E style to switch views. :(

And there's no space for extra collections... Maybe add a down error on Wishlist, so you could hold for more options?

The views thing drove people bonkers, let me tell you.

But there are too many useful columns to fit on my screen :(

What about (as I suggested earlier in this topic) a dropdown for the views instead of A/B/C/D buttons, with the ability to name the views on the definition screen? (Put the Define Views option at the bottom of the list. People will click on the dropdown to see what it is, find the Define Views, and figure it out.)

I LOVE the A-B-C-D-E view options. I have 3 of them pre-set, and I toggle from one to another, depending upon the info I'm looking for. I just set another to show only titles and those crazy (*smile*) subjects.

I also like the A-B-C-D-E views.

What drove people crazy about them? Is there a better option coming?

>85 bluesalamanders:

Is there a better option coming?

See >65 timspalding::

Edit columns brings up another register, allowing you to choose between display styles. I'm going to provide some presets, with names (eg., Summary, Bibliographic, Opinion), and allow you to make up some of your own. The register stays up as long as you want it. But has a close box.

Why is this thread suddenly stretched out horizontally?

Oh, never mind. It's because of message #61. Fine on my home computer, screws up on my work computer (on which, of course, we're not allowed to change any settings).

Please don't take away the A B C D E! Navigating the catalogue already requires far too much clicking (date/rating columns have an inconvenient default sort order, and the display style has to be changed frequently because we can't display enough columns). Could we at least have the option to add quick links to the display styles we use frequently?

Can you really FIT more columns? You must have a sofa-sized screen!

> 89 Heh, you've asked that before, and the answer is still yes. I don't even have a large screen at all, just 15 inches. But lots of the columns, like the cover and the dates, take up hardly any room at all.

You'll be able to keep the "columns" up. They will be a "register" you can keep open or not. So you lose a little bit of vertical space, but gain some "real" names and a lot of understanding from many users.

Tim -

Will there be a way for users to choose not to have a "wishlist" button on their toolbar? Although I know many others are clamoring for it, I have no interest in the wishlist function, and would rather not have it cluttering up my toolbar.

(Sorry if this question has been raised before, I couldn't quite bring myself to read all 91 messages)

If you don't use it, it is designed to grow bigger and bigger.

(Short answer: No. I think that was the first time it was raised. Thinking about it.)

Oh no! :)

edit: the "oh no" was in reference to your first part, not the fact that you're thinking. I posted too quickly, and missed the edit.

How much vertical space will be lost? Will it be just the same thickness as the other bar, with the different display styles listed horizontally?

And still on the subject of more columns--you said once upon a time that the reason you won't let us add more is because it would make the edit display screen look messy for people using lower resolutions. Since you're making changes to the edit display screen now, wouldn't it be a good time to solve that problem and allow more columns? :)

Yay for more columns please!

My vote is for the version in Message 61

The problem with columns isn't the showing, it's the editing. But I'll keep it in mind.

#61 What are the choices (arrows), in addition to books, that are to the right of the search box?

>99 jlane: I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about. Help?

>99 jlane:, that's what a dropdown list looks like in OSX (Safari). I'm guessing that list contains the same options we currently have on the "Your Library" tab which are: books, tags, all fields. :)

>101 AndrewB:, I can see that. Given the context of discussion of new features, it did seem possible that other formats--CDs, DVDs, etc.--might be added options. Perhaps I was too wishful :)

Re the comments in >65 timspalding:

Edit columns brings up another register, allowing you to choose between display styles. I'm going to provide some presets, with names (eg., Summary, Bibliographic, Opinion), and allow you to make up some of your own.

There's a recommend site improvement topic that asks if Reviews can be part of the default views that a non-logged in visitor the LT may see. Currently reviews are not in any of the default 5 styles a visitor could see.

See topic http://www.librarything.com/talktopic.php?topic=15347

Does "Opinion" mean that reviews are now scoped for visitor views?

I'm not a review reader myself making them visible in someone's catalog might entice more review-minded visitors to join.

I agree with you.

> 92

I agree. I also have no interest in the wishlist function, so I would appreciate it if this were an option.

> 105

I agree, unless we can use the wishlist function for a different collection (which is what I am looking for).

>106 henkl:

Yes, why not simply make it for another collection, and let the user name it? "Wish list" or "books in my Paris pied-à-terre" or "my kids' books" or whatever.

Okay, I'm going to start a "collections" thread soon. We need to have this out in a big context. I'm convinced that "wish list" is a basic difference, and that "collections" could become little more than impoverished tagging. I've working hard today, and shouldn't 'get into' something like this, but I'll raise it soon.

I think lilithcat has a great idea in #107. A wish list is just a collection under a different name. If you allow collections to have personalized titles then both camps can be satisfied. I can have a collection of wish list books, of my son's books, etc...

haha, Veritas, very cute :)

Another basic difference category is books read but not owned. That includes books borrowed from the library or from friends, books not kept for one reason or another, books loaned to others and never returned, the books your Mom tossed out when you weren't looking, etc., etc.

Reasons for listing them include being able to review them, and keeping track so that you don't buy/borrow them again by accident.

Edited to add: These, along with Wishlist books, might, I imagine, be excluded from site statistics.

Yeah, but then people will have collections for "history" and "biography," etc. The point of tags is that they break out of the "non-overlapping buckets" model of classification. A book or a piece of paper can be on only one library shelf or in one "folder." Even if you break the metaphor and allow books in two places, the metaphor is still there. It impoverishes the idea, and ultimately makes it less useful. Also, it confuses things. "Wait, should I make my history books a collection or a tag?"

I think you should just start the collections thread now ;)

I don't think there's any limit to the existential categories once you get into "owned/not owned." Lost? From library? On loan? On permanent loan? Destroyed in fire? What if I don't say—where are they then? I don't think you can come up with a set of booleans that express all the ways we're connected to our books. That's what tags are for.

Wish lists are different, I think. They're different in the way that all the people I've met—which fall into an infinitude of categories without clear boundaries—are different from people I want to meet. On a more prosaic level, we want to use the distinctions to change how user-to-user connections and recommendations work. If you and I both want to read Freakonomics, we do share something. But I don't think we have as much to talk about there.

Tim,

Ok. :-) I thought that there had been complaints about books that people have read, but don't have, skewing the Zeitgeist stats.

I definitely have an opinion on this subject, but I'll wait for the new thread.

http://www.librarything.com/talktopic.php?topic=15595.

Unfortunately, its 4th of July and I have other things to do, but I'll get to that thread when I can. I see that it has quite a few comments already.

It would also be nice to adjust the width of the columns, even if only for our own view. For example, the ISBN column in my library shows as much wider than 10 characters.

Granted, I don't have 13-digit ISBNs entered, but the ISBN column should only show as wider for the pages where I did have 13-digit ISBNs.

Column widths are tricky. For the most part we let the browser do the calculations. We can't micromanage it without creating monsters.

> ... A-B-C-D-E views. What drove people crazy about them?

Having to switch through all of them to find out which setting was behind which letter.

> Lightning bolt?

"tracking your borrowed books by satellite and smiting the malefactors with a death-ray"

;-)

>> ... A-B-C-D-E views. What drove people crazy about them?

120>Having to switch through all of them to find out which setting was behind which letter.

Understood, but if we only have the 1 view, I'll never fit the right columns in. ;)

ABCDE
Having to switch through all of them to find out which setting was behind which letter.

Of course, one could just open "edit' to find out.

Edited to add: I dunno. Half the time we're expected to figure out advanced computer stuff; and half the time we're supposed to be helpless ijits who can't deal with more than one option. :-)

I was only answering a question ;-)

Sorry, sunny. I know you were. It just frustrates me that so much stuff isn't explained at all, but then it is apparently too complicated to confront us with a choice between two or more clearly-labeled things, or with more than one step to take.

My responses:

* List & Cover icons were intuitable, and friendly once I'd taken about 2 seconds to think about it.
* Printer was obvious.
* Tag took me about 5 seconds to figure it out. I get what the non-USians are saying. Maybe a tiny image of a tag cloud would make it more apparent?

Love the pulldown of different views. Would suggest this be configurable by the user: a page that allows checking of "my collection"; "my wantlist"; "all my lists"; "tag: fiction"; "my friends collection"; etc. ...

125>Would suggest this be configurable by the user: a page that allows checking of "my collection"; "my wantlist"; "all my lists"; "tag: fiction"; "my friends collection"; etc. ...

Yes. Definite yes. :)