Figuring out the clues: references to the Dark Tower
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1royalhistorian
In the Stephen King Universe by Stanley Wiater and On the Road to the Dark Tower by Bev Vincent are already references published, but it would be great nonetheless to talk about them and trying to found new clues in his newer work.
Cell is almost like the Stand, but I guess it's more the theme then that it really contains references. Then again, I might have missed something and there could be clues.
Cell is almost like the Stand, but I guess it's more the theme then that it really contains references. Then again, I might have missed something and there could be clues.
2atuinsails
Oh, this sounds like fun! I haven't had a chance to read the concordances yet :D. However, my husband says that I could write a book about it. I love drawing parallels to different books.
Where or how should we start?
Where or how should we start?
3royalhistorian
I guess it's best to discuss two titles each time. So, let's get started with the Stand and Cell ?
4atuinsails
Well, let's see. The Stand has some pretty obvious clues. The symbology of the red eye and the crow are both repeatedly attributed to the Crimson King in most of the Dark Tower series. Randall Flagg himself is supposed to be Walter's twinner in that particular world, if I remember rightly. Then of course there is the fact that Roland and company pass through a version of Topeka, KS (hope I got the state right) in the third or fourth book that has been emptied by the plague.
Now, as for Cell. Except for the reference to Derry, Maine, that I thought I remembered and now can't find, I'm not sure it contains much of a reference to the Dark Tower series. Not unless, you can find some correlation between the garbled language the phone crazies use is like that in Desperation and the half human half animals used in the Dark Tower. I would have to find my copy of Desperation, and I think it's in a box from our last move.
What do you think, royalsophietje?
Now, as for Cell. Except for the reference to Derry, Maine, that I thought I remembered and now can't find, I'm not sure it contains much of a reference to the Dark Tower series. Not unless, you can find some correlation between the garbled language the phone crazies use is like that in Desperation and the half human half animals used in the Dark Tower. I would have to find my copy of Desperation, and I think it's in a box from our last move.
What do you think, royalsophietje?
6paghababian
I think the connections between DT and Cell are tenuous, but there are a few. And The Raggedy Man sure felt a lot like Flagg to me...
From wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(novel)
Possible Dark Tower references
It is unknown whether or not Cell is actually part of the Dark Tower storyline, but there are some speculated references:
The hero's comic-book character, the "Dark Wanderer" (Ray Damon), resembles Roland Deschain of the Dark Tower series; in addition to sharing the intials R.D., both men use large .45 Colt revolvers as weapons. Clay's wife, Sharon, referred to the character as Clay's "apocalyptic cowboy." Another possible analogue mentioned as being in the comic is the Wizard Flak (Randall Flagg).
Late in the novel, the protaganists stumble across a half-assembled carnival, which includes a child's ride called "Charlie the Choo-Choo", a reference to the third and fourth books in the series.
The unincorporated Maine township of TR-90, which features in the book, has also featured in Dreamcatcher and the Dark Tower-related Bag of Bones.
Many numbers in the book add up to 19, a number that was cited as particularly significant in the latter three novels of the Dark Tower series. The number on the plane that crashes into a building at the begginning of the novel and the year Gaiten Academy was founded are two examples of this.
From wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(novel)
Possible Dark Tower references
It is unknown whether or not Cell is actually part of the Dark Tower storyline, but there are some speculated references:
The hero's comic-book character, the "Dark Wanderer" (Ray Damon), resembles Roland Deschain of the Dark Tower series; in addition to sharing the intials R.D., both men use large .45 Colt revolvers as weapons. Clay's wife, Sharon, referred to the character as Clay's "apocalyptic cowboy." Another possible analogue mentioned as being in the comic is the Wizard Flak (Randall Flagg).
Late in the novel, the protaganists stumble across a half-assembled carnival, which includes a child's ride called "Charlie the Choo-Choo", a reference to the third and fourth books in the series.
The unincorporated Maine township of TR-90, which features in the book, has also featured in Dreamcatcher and the Dark Tower-related Bag of Bones.
Many numbers in the book add up to 19, a number that was cited as particularly significant in the latter three novels of the Dark Tower series. The number on the plane that crashes into a building at the begginning of the novel and the year Gaiten Academy was founded are two examples of this.
7royalhistorian
Wow, great find! The apocalyptic sphere and the fact that the priest (?) in Cell did let me think of that old smart lady in the Stand...
8atuinsails
I'll have to remember that wikipedia often knows all :D. I just got through skimming through Cell and of course found the Charley the Choo Choo reference. And almost brained myself by slapping my forehead after the protagonist describes his kid at the end. In a way, the condition of the phoners is a lot like those of the children sent back by the Wolves of Calla.
Another thing that I kind of twigged too, that actually seems to easy, is cell towers=Dark Tower. Except its almost the opposite. They want to get away from the tower instead of to it.
Another thing that I kind of twigged too, that actually seems to easy, is cell towers=Dark Tower. Except its almost the opposite. They want to get away from the tower instead of to it.
9royalhistorian
The Charley Choo Choo reference? I must have missed that one when reading. In which scene or page can I find it?
As far as I can recall, there was something that let me think of Ka. But I might be mixing it up with Desperation.
As far as I can recall, there was something that let me think of Ka. But I might be mixing it up with Desperation.
10bmjaspers
#9 How could you miss a reference to Charlie the Choo-Choo?? :) That name always catches my eye. I almost laughed when I saw it on the page.
11royalhistorian
LOL, gotta reread it quickly then :-D
12atuinsails
The Charlie the Choo Choo reference is at the end on the fairgrounds.
And in reference to Msg 9: the gibberish that the phoners reminds me of the language that Tak uses in Desperation/Regulators. And I think that it's also used by the can-tehs (sp?), the human/animal immortals in the employ of the Crimson King.
And in reference to Msg 9: the gibberish that the phoners reminds me of the language that Tak uses in Desperation/Regulators. And I think that it's also used by the can-tehs (sp?), the human/animal immortals in the employ of the Crimson King.
13royalhistorian
Guess it is time to pick a other novel, Black House perhaps?
14atuinsails
Isn't this one a little too easy? :D
The Talisman and Black House are probably two of the most related books to the Dark Tower series. The Talisman is where the idea of alternate universes and Twinners was first presented by Stephen King, if I'm remembering correctly.
Black House of course features breakers and the child slaves that the Crimson King uses. Truthfully, I would have enjoyed more of an explanation of exactly what that machinery was supposed to do, since Roland never encountered it or it's ruins.
I don't think that Black House is the last time we will see Jack Sawyer or Parkus. I was happy to read this before the Wolves of Calla, because it gave me some hope for the destruction of the Crimson King.
But I definitely want to find out more about the Territories after the fall of the Crimson King.
Why don't we look at From a Buick 8? That's got to be one of my fave "side" novels.
The Talisman and Black House are probably two of the most related books to the Dark Tower series. The Talisman is where the idea of alternate universes and Twinners was first presented by Stephen King, if I'm remembering correctly.
Black House of course features breakers and the child slaves that the Crimson King uses. Truthfully, I would have enjoyed more of an explanation of exactly what that machinery was supposed to do, since Roland never encountered it or it's ruins.
I don't think that Black House is the last time we will see Jack Sawyer or Parkus. I was happy to read this before the Wolves of Calla, because it gave me some hope for the destruction of the Crimson King.
But I definitely want to find out more about the Territories after the fall of the Crimson King.
Why don't we look at From a Buick 8? That's got to be one of my fave "side" novels.
15royalhistorian
That's a better idea! Yup, that would be an interesting novel to 'research'. Gotta look for my copy...
16royalhistorian
Haven't gotten time to re-read From a Buick 8, but I can recall the story. I haven't noticed Dark Tower-references, but it could let a reader think of "The Green Mile" and "Tommyknockers".
Have you found some Dark Tower-references in From a Buick 8?
Have you found some Dark Tower-references in From a Buick 8?
17GeorgiaDawn
I started the Dark Tower series years ago and put it down. I want to begin again this summer and finish! I'm looking forward to it already.
18atuinsails
Re: Msg 16
My understanding is that the Buick is supposed to be one of the low person's cars. I've tried rereading it since you suggested doing so, and I haven't been able to either. Real life has flooded this week it seems.
Anyway, aside from the assumption about the Buick's original ownership, I kind of like to compare it to Christine. I kind of like the idea that Christine herself might have somehow become a low person's car.
There is also the things that came out of the truck of the Buick. They sound like some of the things from the short story "The Mist." Which involves alternate dimensions/universes. I guess I lump that into the Dark Tower stuff.
My understanding is that the Buick is supposed to be one of the low person's cars. I've tried rereading it since you suggested doing so, and I haven't been able to either. Real life has flooded this week it seems.
Anyway, aside from the assumption about the Buick's original ownership, I kind of like to compare it to Christine. I kind of like the idea that Christine herself might have somehow become a low person's car.
There is also the things that came out of the truck of the Buick. They sound like some of the things from the short story "The Mist." Which involves alternate dimensions/universes. I guess I lump that into the Dark Tower stuff.
19atuinsails
Re: Msg 17
GeorgiaDawn, I just wanted to give a little advice. Please ignore this if you prefer. I would suggest that you read Hearts in Atlantis, Everything's Eventual, and The Talisman before starting the series. Then taking a break around books 3 or 4 to read Desperation and Black House.
Personally, I feel that the first three books will introduce certain characters to you. Also Everything's Eventual has a short story about Roland in it. Black House is a continuation of The Talisman and has several mentions about breakers and the Crimson King. Desperation introduces the can-tohs kind of.
GeorgiaDawn, I just wanted to give a little advice. Please ignore this if you prefer. I would suggest that you read Hearts in Atlantis, Everything's Eventual, and The Talisman before starting the series. Then taking a break around books 3 or 4 to read Desperation and Black House.
Personally, I feel that the first three books will introduce certain characters to you. Also Everything's Eventual has a short story about Roland in it. Black House is a continuation of The Talisman and has several mentions about breakers and the Crimson King. Desperation introduces the can-tohs kind of.
20GeorgiaDawn
#19 - Thanks! I've already read all of the books you mentioned except Black House. I have the book, I've just neve read it. Do you think it would help to read it before I begin the Dark Tower books?
21atuinsails
Black House is going to give a lot away but not in a weird sort of way. It give away alot of Roland's purpose for existence that the Dark Tower novels don't go into.
22mrgrooism
Georgia, I would start with The Dark Tower I: The Gunslinger first and foremost, and then The Dark Tower II: The Drawing of the Three and
The Dark Tower III: The Waste Lands. THEN I would read The Talisman and Eyes of the Dragon, hmmmm, then The Dark Tower IV: Wizard and Glass, then Desperation/Regulators, Everything's Eventual and Black House, then The Dark Tower V: Wolves of the Calla, The Dark Tower VI: Song of Susannah and
The Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower
The order is off the top of my head. I really should take all of them out, fine tune the list, and then reread everything that way!!!
The Dark Tower III: The Waste Lands. THEN I would read The Talisman and Eyes of the Dragon, hmmmm, then The Dark Tower IV: Wizard and Glass, then Desperation/Regulators, Everything's Eventual and Black House, then The Dark Tower V: Wolves of the Calla, The Dark Tower VI: Song of Susannah and
The Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower
The order is off the top of my head. I really should take all of them out, fine tune the list, and then reread everything that way!!!
23mrgrooism
On second thought, I would read the following chronologically, based on the list in the other thread:
The Stand (1978) - uncut and revised edition in 1990
The Dark Tower I: The Gunslinger (1982) - revised in 2003
The Talisman (1984)
The Eyes of the Dragon (1987)
The Dark Tower II: The Drawing of the Three (1987)
The Dark Tower III: The Waste Lands (1991)
Desperation (1996)
The Regulators (1996)
The Dark Tower IV: Wizard and Glass (1997)
Bag of Bones (1998)
Hearts in Atlantis (1999)
Black House (2001)
Everything's Eventual (2002)
The Dark Tower V: Wolves of the Calla (2003)
The Dark Tower VI: Song of Susannah (2004)
The Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower (2004)
The Stand (1978) - uncut and revised edition in 1990
The Dark Tower I: The Gunslinger (1982) - revised in 2003
The Talisman (1984)
The Eyes of the Dragon (1987)
The Dark Tower II: The Drawing of the Three (1987)
The Dark Tower III: The Waste Lands (1991)
Desperation (1996)
The Regulators (1996)
The Dark Tower IV: Wizard and Glass (1997)
Bag of Bones (1998)
Hearts in Atlantis (1999)
Black House (2001)
Everything's Eventual (2002)
The Dark Tower V: Wolves of the Calla (2003)
The Dark Tower VI: Song of Susannah (2004)
The Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower (2004)
24GeorgiaDawn
Thanks, Groo! Of your list I've already the following:
The Stand (1978) - uncut and revised edition in 1990
The Dark Tower I: The Gunslinger (1982) - revised in 2003
The Talisman (1984)
Desperation (1996)
The Regulators (1996)
Bag of Bones (1998)
Hearts in Atlantis (1999)
Everything's Eventual (2002)
Of course, I can always reread them. :)
The Stand (1978) - uncut and revised edition in 1990
The Dark Tower I: The Gunslinger (1982) - revised in 2003
The Talisman (1984)
Desperation (1996)
The Regulators (1996)
Bag of Bones (1998)
Hearts in Atlantis (1999)
Everything's Eventual (2002)
Of course, I can always reread them. :)
25andyray
i read the postings here and have come to the conclusion there are people in this world with way too much time on their hands. i just read steve and enjoy it.
26paghababian
#25 - Aren't you ever intrigued by a work that references another, maybe enough to seek out that other work? Or have you ever felt that little twinge of insider-pride for having understood an allusion? The Dark Tower is one of many works (House of Leaves being my other favorite example) that rewards the reader for having a keen eye. It's no different than doing a crossword puzzle - you're using your brain!
27MAJGross
A really interesting method is to buy the latest editions of the DT series in which the author has made many connections for us. And of course SK would love everyone to buy the series again! He also practically rewrote the first book to bring it more in sync with the others. I found it a vast improvement. Beginning in, I think, the 4th book, SK puts titles in bold to show books that have a connection to the DT.
28duppy First Message
I can't believe I missed a reference to Charlie the Choo-Choo in Cell! I will have to find that section. Although I do remember the main character's comic being similar to DT; I kind of assumed he was another conduit for the action in the DT books, sort of like SK was supposed to be himself in the series. Although it was very UNencouraging that SK puts an end to the character's comic in an extremely final way. After he finished the series, he seemed determined to rid himself of any vestiges of the books. It certainly had a hold on him for most of his writing career.
29paghababian
Finished Blaze a little while ago, and I've just started rereading The Gunslinger (the revised edition). This jumped out at me as I read:
When Roland hypnotizes Jake to find out how he got to the Way Station, Jake mentions that he reads "a sports novel or a Clay Blaisdell Western from the school library" as he eats lunch.
I remember there being a website that compared the original Gunslinger with the revised edition, but now I can't find it... anyone know where that might be?
When Roland hypnotizes Jake to find out how he got to the Way Station, Jake mentions that he reads "a sports novel or a Clay Blaisdell Western from the school library" as he eats lunch.
I remember there being a website that compared the original Gunslinger with the revised edition, but now I can't find it... anyone know where that might be?
30royalhistorian
Jikes! King can't really let go of the Dark Tower-saga, can he?
31QueenOfDenmark
I don't think anyone has mentioned Insomnia (forgive me if you have) but that is a huge tie-in to the Dark Tower, with Ed Deepneau talking of the Crimson King and then Patrick and his drawings of Roland and the Tower itself to name the two most obvious.
(POSSIBLE SPOILER - Thinking about that, supernatural drawings are the theme in Duma Key too.)
When Ralph meets the little bald doctors I think they actually meet inside the Dark Tower on one of the lower levels. And I think that the whole point of that book was to introduce Patrick and his gift because the Crimson King was trying to get him at the sacrifice of all others before he could grow up and cross over.
I also thought the buick in From a Buick 8 was driven by a low man and the world that it opened into could possibly be either the part of Rolands world where the slow mutents came from (the bit still affected by radiaton) or an infected part of Booya Moon from Lisey's Story.
Also The eyes of the dragon is a must read because I think it is set on Roland's world and is where I first came across Randall Flagg. It's set in one of the Baronies and the ending of that book is perhaps where Flagg first crossed over to other worlds (first time as Flagg anyway).
(POSSIBLE SPOILER - Thinking about that, supernatural drawings are the theme in Duma Key too.)
When Ralph meets the little bald doctors I think they actually meet inside the Dark Tower on one of the lower levels. And I think that the whole point of that book was to introduce Patrick and his gift because the Crimson King was trying to get him at the sacrifice of all others before he could grow up and cross over.
I also thought the buick in From a Buick 8 was driven by a low man and the world that it opened into could possibly be either the part of Rolands world where the slow mutents came from (the bit still affected by radiaton) or an infected part of Booya Moon from Lisey's Story.
Also The eyes of the dragon is a must read because I think it is set on Roland's world and is where I first came across Randall Flagg. It's set in one of the Baronies and the ending of that book is perhaps where Flagg first crossed over to other worlds (first time as Flagg anyway).
