sod-killing advice requested

I want to expand my front yard beds by a fairly large amount this year, but I really HATE removing sod, which is a horrible job: hard work and I've got no place to put it (compost bins not big enough) and it's too heavy to put in the trash. I am also hoping to avoid use of chemicals due to the expense and on general principles, although I am not opposed to glyphosate in certain circumstances (like thistles. Nothing else works on thistles).

Since the area I want to kill is pretty much full-sun, I'm thinking of trying a new (to me) method of lawn-killing this year - a thick layer of wet newspaper covered with manure and topped with mulch. As I understand the theory, it smothers the grass (and the weeds in the grass) and breaks down to improve the soil. I hope if I start now it will be decomposed enough to dig over and plant by August.

My next-door neighbour tried something similar a couple of years ago, only she used a thin layer of newspaper and put fresh grass-clippings on it and then put black plastic on top. It didn't seem to be terribly effective although it might have been too shady, or maybe she didn't leave it long enough.

If any of you have tried this method or something similar before, I'd be interested in how it turned out. Or I'll take suggestions for better ways to do it :)

thanks

I'm going to try a method I read about in Making the Most of Shade: How to Plan, Plant, and Grow a Fabulous Garden that Lightens up the Shadows by Larry Hodgson. Not a book I highly recommend, but this particular idea seemed good.

Hodgson said that you can put down a layer of 5-6 sheets of newspaper topped with 8-12" of topsoil/compost mix and then plant directly into the new soil without waiting. (Use no more than 8" if there are tree roots in the area, use as much as you can if there aren't any roots.) According to Hodgson, by autumn the roots of the new plants will just reach the newspaper barrier, and by next spring the newspaper and the old sod layer will have broken down enough for the roots to push through it. In the meantime, the newspaper will stop the buried weeds from sprouting and will kill them by the end of the season.

That's the theory, anyway. I plan to try it in two areas this year - one in full sun with no tree roots, one in shade with lots of tree roots. The difference is that I will probably use black landscaping paper instead of newspaper because the areas I want to convert to garden beds is so large, and we just don't have that much newspaper. So, I'll be experimenting with this idea, too.

Has anyone else tried this? I'd love to know if it actually works before I do it!

dog pee! just joking, The best way is to dig it up and maybe one of your neibors has a bare spot you could fill in ?

Warning - newspaper will not break down in a year! I have mulched with layers of newspaper covered by shredded bark, and have found the newspaper lasts more than one year intact, not decomposed, and you must keep the mulch thick and uniform over time, or squirrels and wind will move it around, and soon you will have unattractive pages of newsprint sticking up in your yard.

I did not use manure, which may have made a difference, because I just wanted to keep the weeds down under my trees.

I did read in a magazine somewhere that someone recommended old pieces of carpet to kill the grass. You would have to remove it, of course, to plant something else there, but it is very effective.

How long will it take for the root mass of the sod to break up?

>4 Windy: I think the difference between bark mulch and soil/compost/manure would make the newspaper break down much more quickly. At least I hope so!

>3 pollysmith: (pollysmith) - sadly, none of the neighbours want my sod either...

>4 Windy:&5 - yes, I'm hoping that keeping it wet combined with the manure and compost will speed up the decomposition and also keep the newspaper from escaping.

Anyway, this is all great information - thanks and keep it coming :)

Please let us know how any of the "smothering" methods work. I have the same question as Windy: how long will it take for the sod's roots to abate? I'm still removing sod the old-fashioned way with a shovel. I'm putting it behind my shed where I want to create a "woodland walk". I'm using the sod to smother unwanted weeds in that area.

It must be nice to have a yard big enough to have a woodland walk. Sigh.

Tardis, my "woodland walk" consists of the tight space between my shed and an ugly chainlink fence. Since it is shaded, nothing much grows there. I already have shade and semi-shady gardens, so I thought I would "pretty-up" this neglected space with woodland plants and grandiosely call it my Woodland Walk since that's about all you can do there: walk single file around the garden shed.

This won't help most of you, but we just raise a lot of healthy boys and once they hit their growth spurt, put a mattock in their hands. There is an art to skimming sod off with a mattock, but it goes pretty fast once you get the hang of it. (Speaking from observation, not personal experience.)

>2Talbin, I would hesitate to use the black landscaping paper. If it's what I'm thinking of, it is meant to be more of a permanent barrier and it doesn't decompose. I thought Making the Most of Shade was one of the better books on shade that I've read. What don't you like about it?

>10 ColdClimateGardening: I've seen a black, biodegradable paper mulch, available from Johnny's Seeds, Territorial Seeds and probably others (I don't know how to make links, otherwise I'd link to the page.) According to Johnny's website, it breaks down in 6-10 weeks. At www.johnnysseeds.com, click on Tools, Equipment & Supplies, then Mulches, and it's listed there. At Territorial, it's called Planter's Paper.

As for Making the Most of Shade: How to Plan, Plant, and Grow a Fabulous Garden that Lightens up the Shadows, I reviewed it here on LT. (Here's a weird thing. If you follow the "short" title - either the link in #10 or the touchstone - you get to a page that says there are no reviews. If you follow the "long" title here in my post or the touchstone, you'll get to a page that shows my review. Hmm.)

Anyway, I found the first half of the book - the how-to section - fairly lacking. There wasn't a lot of specific information about how to garden in different types of shade, or any other really "deep" information. I still find my Shade Gardening (Burpee American Gardening Series) to be more useful from that perspective.

However, the second half of Hodgson's book - the half with the plant descriptions - was very well done. My only quibble with that portion was that he didn't list the origin of the plants.

"(Here's a weird thing. If you follow the "short" title - either the link in #10 or the touchstone - you get to a page that says there are no reviews. If you follow the "long" title here in my post or the touchstone, you'll get to a page that shows my review. Hmm.)
"

This is known as a combining problem, at the moment there are Two works the long and the short version. If you go to Larry Hodgson's author page you will see a link combine/seperate works. If you click on that you will see every work he is attributed to. Select the two appropriate checkboxes and click combine.

I'll leave this one for you to do!

The Combiners group has discussion on what to and what not to combine, as well as some more detailed tricks.

You should go through your library checking the title and author information (Amazon is not accurate!) and combing where necessary to help everyone's data!

>9 OldRoses: OldRoses - LOL. I guess we put beauty anywhere we can.

>10 ColdClimateGardening: ColdClimateGardening - I have two healthy teenage boys (although no mattocks). Not having much luck interesting them in physical labour. Last year the utility co. moved our gas meter - they had the coolest little backhoe thingie - small enough to drive through a regular gate into the back yard and - that's what I really want.

However, the disposal problem is the biggie. Not having to dispose of the sod is why the smothering technique is attracting me.

I wonder if having the lawn aerated first would help?

>12 reading_fox: You're right. Strangely, it ended up being an author problem, not a work combination problem. For whatever reason, there were two authors named Larry Hodgson, both spelled exactly the same, but the option to combine those two titles didn't come up on either work page. It wasn't until I combined the two authors that I was able to combine the works.

I'm embarrassed that I didn't see it was a work combination problem myself. I'm part of the Combiners group - #7 on the top work combiners log on the Zeitgeist page - so I should have thought of that! I guess that just goes to show that we compartmentalize what we're doing. I was talking about gardening here and didn't even think about the combination problem.

In any case, problem solved. Thanks, readingfox, for pointing out what should have been obvious!

I've been gardening for over 40 years, and thought I'd invented this method, which is basically the "lasagna" method. I use either many layers of newspaper or cardboard, which is especially good I think, and I cover it with wood chip mulch so it won't blow away. My favorite time to make a new bed is in fall, but I actually have done it only a few weeks before new shrubs arrive. The cardboard isn't broken down, of course, but I just dig right through it, plant the shrub, and pull the mulch back over.

For a perennial bed, it's easier to plant if prepared in fall, but I have used the method described and only a few weeks later stuck in plugs of creeping thymes where I was trying to kill of sod and replace it with the thymes. It works fine.

Deep rooted plants like dock, burdock and dandelions will come through the mulch, but those I dig out when they appear. Some of the more vigorous rhizotomaceous grasses also try to come back, but they are usually easily dug out.

I never remove turf or treat it with round up either.

Well, due to weather and other committments I was delayed and only got to the grass smothering on Sunday. I started by putting the raker bar on the mower and really scalping the grass, then put down the wet newspaper and topped it with compost, etc.

It looks fabulous - all that compost on top really makes it look like a finished bed already, except without any plants, of course.

In a month or so I will check to see how the decomposition is going, although I don't expect it to be done that quickly.

The only downer was the nest of baby mice I murdered (or maybe it should be manslaughter (mouseslaughter?) because it wasn't premeditated) when digging the compost out of the bins. Must turn the compost more often so mummy mouse doesn't move in again.

Last Nov. I put down a bunch of wet newspapers, covered them with mulch a neighbor had from cutting down brush & small trees 7 shredding the stuff. it sat there all winter, snow & rain but before I planter, my son roto-tilled it. I've put in perennials, but as I dig, the top layer is nice, there's no grass or roots, but there is a layer of clay 4 or 5" down. I try to remove the bigger chunks of clay & replace with topsoil from Walmart & also organic cow manure. so far the plants are doing OK, no sign of grass, tho a few dandylions which I zapped w/Round-up. I think what made it work was the over-the-winter period. Also the turf wasn't very thick or heavy. I will continue to add grass clippings & mulch. And also fertilize as needed.

Well, it has been almost a month and I am getting new sidewalks today so I scraped back the mulch and looked under the paper in the area being dug up for sidewalks. So far the grass and assorted weeds (mostly dandelions) are not dead, but they look terrible.

Nothing has grown through the paper, although I have had to weed the things that have sprouted in the compost/mulch.

I am feeling optimistic that I will actually be able to rototill and plant in early August, as planned.

I've used the smothering method for setting up new beds -- only I used cardboard boxes instead of newspaper. After moving in to a new home I had lots of handy boxes, all I had to do was pry out a few staples. Just had to keep it wet, worked like a charm.

The best new-bed technique I found was planting cover crops (clover and alfalfa) in the spot the new bed will be then tilling the resulting mass of green under in about three months. Till again once everything composted in place, adding whatever peat moss or soil conditioner you can afford and cover with mulch -- voila!

I've got that lovely ohio clay with the topsoil scraped off by the builders -- can you tell? *grin*

Update - now 2 months. I am getting some quack grass growing through, but not much and it is easy to pull it out and get quite a long piece of root. My main problem is about a billion elm seedlings, from the seeds deposited by the elm trees on the boulevard. Seems like every darned one sprouted. I go out and cultivate every couple of evenings to keep them down.

Fall update: Well, after 4.5 months I can say it seems to have worked. Two weekends ago I removed the perennials from the adjacent (pre-exisiting) bed and rototilled the whole works, adding peat and other amendments. The rototiller was a bit gutless so I had to dig over the area first to get through the dead turf and as Windy (message 4) said, the newspaper did not decompose noticably. However, it got rototilled in with everything else and it's now in small enough bits that it doesn't matter. I also laid the pavers for the access paths.

Last week and on the weekend I replanted the perennials I moved out (ended up giving away quite a few) and my daffodil river and then a trip to a local greenhouse (having a big end-of-season sale!) provided a few additional plants. I still need more but will wait for spring when the greenhouses have a better selection.

The soil is great. The garden itself looks ok - a bit spotty due to there not being enough plants, and the plants there are are small yet, but it will fill in. I would call this technique a success, although it does require a lot of patience.

Sorry I got to this thread so late--but I enjoyed it.
FWIW, I solarized my soil to kill weeds. First, soak the bed well. Then, cover with a clear plastic sheet, about 4 mils thick. I then put long boards along the edges (you can use soil) to keep out air. The sun does the rest. In a short time the weeds are baked golden--err, they turn brown and die.

Did it work? I've been doing this for years - making new beds that is with several layers of newspaper (a section of the Sunday NY Times? overlapping and then covering them with a 3-4 inch layer of wood chips. Recently I read a book {Lasagna Gardening} which advocates newspaper, several inches of chopped leaves, a layer of peat moss, more leaves, grass clippings, more peat,etc. etc. Left to rot over the winter this really worked! You don't need too many layers if you're going to plant flowers or leafy vegetables - but for shrubs you need alot.

I know this topic has been dormant for quite awhile, but I am starting a lasagna styled area in my front yard tonight. We have an area that is unsuitable for a lawn...sloping, and difficult to mow, with only a thin layer of top soil and I suspect rocks underneath. We plan to layer it with newspapers, leaves (well rotted), compost and then mulch the top, eventually putting shrubs and a rockgarden on top. I'll let you know how it goes. We have some lovely big pieces of slate to make a pathway as well. I am quite excited about it!

24>That sounds lovely.

I'm going to kill another section this year, around the base of the spruce tree in my front yard. It always looks terrible anyway because the spruce sucks all the moisture. I really ought to take that spruce out too - it's not the nicest looking tree - but I like the privacy it provides. Anyway, I'm probably going to do the lasagne technique again, but not wait for it all to decompose before planting. I'm making lists of drought-tolerant perennials to plant and I'd like some nice big rocks to anchor the whole thing.

I wonder how much faster the rotting will happen here on the coast, compared to Alberta. Heaven knows we've had our share of rain this year so far!! I had never tried lasagna gardening when I lived north of Calgary, but I know my composting works faster here than it did there. Perhaps not faster, really, but it works for more months of the year so it seems faster.

Alberta gets so much sun that if you were doing a sunny area and used black plastic mulch on top it would probably work very fast. I found it took most of a season when I mulched with newspapers and dead leaves and compost.

We will not be planting anything in our new area until fall. Today I am putting landscape fabric and bark mulch on top, so at least it will look okay and not get really mucky. I may put some pots on top though, just to dress it up for this year. What perennials are you planning on for under your spruce tree?

On the sunny side: Daylilies, sedum, bearberry and a big pot with annuals.
On the shady side: not sure yet because I'm not sure hostas can take the dryness. I think lamium would work and I've got a big patch of lamium "White Nancy" that I can divide so wouldn't have to buy anything. Or I might just use mulch - I like the look of a nice dark mulch and maybe a couple of nice rocks for variety.

Lamium would likely work. Hostas would likely work on the farthest edges. I like the look of mulch too, with rocks. We have a Japanese maple in front of our place and I had lavendar and veronica and moss phlox underneath it. We pulled it all out this year....the lavendars were getting too big and messy anyway. I saved some small lavendars that were just starting, and moved them to other beds. Then we put down some light grey landscaping fabric and rounded rocks from the oceanside and covered the bed with them. It is a smallish raised bed, and it looks much better...and shows off the tree.