Joycepa's reads in 2011, part 2

Starting a new thread.

I'm mystified why 2 touchstones came over and the others didn't--and I can't seem to fix it. Oh well.

This is where I'll be listing the books I've read so far this year.

June

80. The Help by Kathryn Stockett
79. The White War by Mark Thompson
78. The Godwulf Manuscript by Robert Parker
77. Fer de Lance by Rex Stout
76. Light From Heaven by Jan Karon
75. Shepherds Abiding by Jan Karon
74. In This Mountain by Jan Karon
73. A New Song by Jan Karon
72. The Gates of November by Chaim Potok
71. The Maps of Chickamauga by David Powell and David Friedrichs
70. The Case of the Missing Servant by Tarquin Hall

May

69. Out to Canaan by Jan Karon
68. These High, Green Hills by Jan Karon
67. A Light in the Window by Jan Karon
66. At Home in Mitford by Jan Karon
65. The Gift of Asher Lev by Chaim Potok
64. My Name is Asher Lev by Chaim Potok
63. Rob Roy by Sir Walter Scott
62. The Long Ships by Frans G. Bengtsson
61. One Was A Soldier by Julia Spencer-Fleming

April

60. Rough Country by John Sandford
59. Dark of the Moon by John Sandford
58. Gemini by Dorothy Dunnett
57. Caprice and Rondo by Dorothy Dunnett
56. To Lie With Lions by Dorothy Dunnett
55. The Unicorn Hunt by Dorothy Dunnett
54. Scales of Gold by Dorothy Dunnet
53. Race of Scorpions by Dorothy Dunnet
52. The Spring of the Ram by Dorothy Dunnett

March

51. Warlock by Oakley Hall
50. Niccolo Rising by Dorothy Dunnett
49. The Middle Way by the Dalai Lama
48. The Apprentice by Tess Gerritsen
47. Dirt Music by Tim Winton
46. The Surgeon by Tess Gerritson
45. Checkmate by Dorothy Dunnett
44. The Ringed Castle by Dorothy Dunnett
43. Pawn in Frankincense by Dorothy Dunnett
42. The Disorderly Knights by Dorothy Dunnett
41. Queen's Play by dorothy dunnet
40. Game of Kings by Dorothy Dunnett
39. The Curse of the Pogo Stick by Colin Coterill

February

38. White Nights by Ann Cleeves
37. Raven Black by Ann Cleeves
36. Klee Wyck by Emily Carr
35. The Forest Lover by Susan Vreeland
34. The Ghost and the Haunted Mansion by Alice Kimberly
33. The Ghost and the Femme Fatale by Alice Kimberly
32. The Ghost and the Dead Man's Library by Alice Kimberly
31. The Ghost and the Dead Deb by Alice Kimberly
30. The Ghost and Mrs. McClure by Alice Kimberley
29. Roast Mortem by Cleo Coyle
28. Holiday Grind by Cleo Coyle
27. Espresso Shot by Cleo Coyle
26. French Pressed by Cleo Coyle
25. Decaffeinated Corpse by Cleo Coyle
24. Murder Most Frothy by Cleo Coyle
23. Latte Trouble by Cleo Coyle
22. Through the Grinder by Cleo Coyle

January

21. On What Grounds by Cleo Coyle
20. Tell No One by Harlan Coben
19. Moonlight Mile by Dennis Lehane
18. Reasonable Doubts by Giancarlo Carofiglio
17. A Walk in the Dark by Gianrico Carofiglio
16. The Merry Misogynist by Colin Cotterill
15. Anarchy and Old Dogs by Colin Cotterill
14. Disco for the Departed by Colin Cotterill
13. Thirty-Three Teeth by Colin Cotterill
12. The Hummingbird's Daughter by Luis Alberto Urrea
11. Three at Wolfe's Door by Rex Stout
10. Mansfield Park by Jane Austen
9. Death in the Andes by Mario Vargas Llosa
8. The Elephant's Journey by José Saramago
7. Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen
6. The Battle of Wilson's Creek by Edwin C. Bearss
5. Stealing Lumby by Gail Fraser
4. Shibumi by Trevanian
3. The Lumby Lines by Gail Fraser
2. First Battle of Manassas: An End to Innocence by John Hennessy
1. The Maps of First Bull Run; An Atlas of the First Bull Run Campaign by Bradley M. Gottfried

Good!

Hey, Joyce! I don't have anything to say, really, just wanted to let you know that I'm lurking in the shadows and enjoying the discussions and your reviews.

Hi, Joyce,
I wish I had your discipline to read the books in a series one after the other. I'll have to see if I can plan something like that for next year.

#3: Good to see you Sandy. I'm doing the same on your thread.

#4: What make it easy is the the entire series is on Kindle. Of course, that makes it dangerous, too! Means I have no self-discipline and just buy the books, wince at my Visa account following month!

Hi Joyce, I wish I had enough time to read the number of books you do. I am working full time and still have a child at home, so I know my turn will come!

Thanks for all the book recommendations - I'm just starting the Cleo Coyle books and, now, so is my mother so we'll be sharing them!

#6: Retirement does have its advantages, and no question that I have far more time to read than I did when I was working. Hang in there! :-)

I have a feeling both you and your mother are going to enjoy them because there are characters in there for both of you! Let me know what your mom thinks of Madame DuBois who is one of my favorites.

#6: Retirement does have its advantages, and no question that I have far more time to read than I did when I was working. Hang in there! :-)

I have a feeling both you and your mother are going to enjoy them because there are characters in there for both of you! Let me know what your mom thinks of Madame DuBois who is one of my favorites.

Hi Joycepa
Nice to see you have returned to LT. I don't join the reading things
any more because I have started writing again. How is Panama?
Probably not covered in snow. I just realized that everything I've
written in the past few weeks has some kind of reference to snow in it.
There is a big window behind my computer and it looks out over our back yard & the woods behind it. all of which are covered in, surprise (!) that cold white stuff.
Love, MarianV.

Just wanted to say Hi, and let you know that I've been reading your threads...although I'm not sure if I've posted here before or not! :)

#9: I'll bet you're seeing snow, given where you are! Hot here--it's summer--temps either near 90 or above.

#10: I don't think you've posted here before, but hey, lurking is a fine art! :-)

Yes!"
It's on the ground
it's in the air
It's in my hair
It's everywhere!"

quote from Dr. Seuss

23. Latte Trouble
Cleo Coyle

3rd in the Coffeehouse Mystery series.

It seems that New Yorkers have an infallible way to tell when summer has ended and fall arrives that has nothing to do with the weather or calendar--Fall Fashion Week takes over Bryant Park in the back of the New York Public Library. Fashionistas of every description descend on New York from all over the world. The Village Blend is right in the middle, serving as the host for Lottie Harmon’s Fashion Week party. Harmon, a fantastically successful accessory designer in the 80s, dropped out of the fashion scene for 20 years, but this year she is staging a comeback with her line inspired by--you guessed it, coffee! More specifically, the coffee drinks served up by the Village Blend.

But of course, nothing ever stays merely frantic in Clare Cosi’s life. In the middle of the party, one of the attendees drops very dead--poisoned. One of Clare’s baristas, Tucker Burton, is accused of the murder. Naturally Clare is not going to stand by and see infamous injustice take place, so...

Thus the plot of the 3rd in this very entertaining series. All of the characters who populated and brought to life the first two books are back and better than ever, especially Madame Dubois, Clare’s ex-mother-in-law and one of my favorite people in the series.

As usual, Coyle teaches us about coffee--how to buy it, store it, prepare it, and coffee drinks. She also provides fascinating bits of the history of New York neighborhoods and buildings: Bryant Park itself, the arch in Washington Square, Rikers Island prison (the largest prison in the US and the only US penal colony), Bellevue Hospital and more.

Because this is a fashionable murder, we’re treated to theories of fashion cycles, a look at what constitutes timelessness in fashion, and insight into the profound superficiality of the entire fashion industry.

And last but not least, we’re provided with nuggets of insight into high society:

Madame Dubois: You must wear light colors to blend in with the rich and powerful..
Clare: Light colors?
Madame Dubois: If for no other reason than to demonstrate that you can afford the cleaning bills.

“They’re all so quiet,” I whispered to Madame.
“Yes, my dear. Well, some people are just used to letting their money speak for them, and in my opinion, money alone has absolutely nothing to say.”

Given great characterizations, snappy writing, and adequate plotting, this is another marvelously entertaining installment in a delightful series. Highly recommended.

Mystery series have been so disappointing lately. That sounds like it might be fun.

>13 Joycepa: I don't remember if I put that one on my list of mysteries to read for March, but if I didn't, I probably need to drag it out and try to get to it. I have been enjoying it, and that's the one that's next for me.

#14: As long as you remember that this is lightweight stuff, you won't be disappointed. DON'T expect heavy-duty plotting but there's plenty to interest the reader and it's fun.

#15: I think "enjoyment" is the key word.

Another lurking person signing in. This last week I have been living through a bad case of the flu, doing a lot more sleeping than reading.

Sleeping is good, Bill, sleeping is good. Sorry to hear about the flu, though.

24. Murder Most Frothy
Cleo Coyle

Fourth in the Coffeehouse Mystery series.

The scene shifts to the Hamptons, a collection of hamlets on the South Fork of Long Island and the playground of the wealthy and their wannabees.

Clare has agreed to help out a friend, Dave, with his restaurant in the Hamptons, setting up coffee and dessert service. In exchange, she and Joy, her daughter, will stay at Dave’s East Hampton mansion for the summer. But during a Fourth of July party at the mansion, which Clare is catering, a young waiter is shot. Clare is convinced that his death was a mistake and that the intended victim is Dave. Since she can not convince the local police of her theory, naturally Clare is “forced” to investigate on her own.

A typical Coffeehouse mystery, this is short on plot, really, and unfortunately in this case, not very long on ambience and history, two of the series’ very long suits. We do learn something about the Hamptons; the local are called Bonackers (name origin is Native American) and something about the history. We learn a lot about the wealthy --the often relatively nasty wealthy--who use the Hamptons for second homes and status symbols.

Fine, but one of the strengths of the series is the supporting cast: Tucker, the gay barista; Esther, who can be called the Shark Lady at times; Madame Dubois, Clare’s utterly charming and sophisticated former mother-in-law; Detective Mike Quinn of the Sixth Precinct, a definite love interest for Clare; and New Yorkers themselves in their diversity as they appear in the Village Blend for their caffeine fix. While Matteo and Madame Dubois appear onstage, their roles are small and the others are notable by their absence. As is New York, its history and vitality.

Coyle still has the power to evoke settings and make them utterly authentic, and she does so with the Hamptons. Equally so, she brings the wealthy part-time residents alive as well, although that’s not quite so pleasant; the rich turn out not to be terribly interesting.

Still, it’s lively, even if it isn’t the best book in the series. Recommended for Coffeehouse fans.

I took a quick look at one of the coffeehouse books as it came through our library on ILL the other day. (Unfortunately, by the time the patron returned it, it had to go right back home where it came from, so I could only get a quick browse in on my lunch break.) It looked like a LOT of fun!

#20: I broke down and bought the latest on Kindle, after swearing that I would wait for the price to come down--right now, it's more than the hardback! But I couldn't resist--and it's a strong one so far. I haven't checked but if she has even half of the recipes for both the baked goods and main dishes that she mentions in the book, I'll be ecstatic.

#25.Decaffeinated Corpse
Cleo Coyle

Fifth in the Coffeehouse Mystery series.

Back in New York at the Village Blend, Clare is contemplating the incontemplatible--decaffeinated coffee at the Blend. Her research has unearthed the fact that nearly 20% of customers for coffee drinks want decaf, a segment of the market Clare has lost because of the poor quality of beans processed according to standard methods. Thus, her horrified baristas, assembled for a taste test, are certain of disaster. Instead--an excellent cup of coffee ensues. How? Not from beans subjected to processing but those from a plant that naturally produces a decaffeinated bean. This is a horticultural breakthrough from a friend of Matt’s, Ric Gostwick, who after years of research has come up with the plant. The Blend is to have exclusive rights to the beans during its introductory phase.

But coffee is a competitive market, and when Clare discovers Ric unconscious outside the back door of the Blend, she immediately assumes that Ric’s assault was motivated by business rivalry. Matters go from complicated to worse, a murder results, and Clare goes into full-blown private eye mode.

As usual, the story is enriched by snippets of New York history and items of interest; in this book, Brooklyn is the star borough. Featured are the Brooklyn Botanic Gardens (yes, Botanic, not Botanical), the Brooklyn Art Museum, Gowanus, Red Hook and other neighborhoods.

The strong supporting cast of characters is back. Esther the Snark Girl has an eyebrow-raising boyfriend. Joy continues to drive her mother crazy. And Madame Dubois once again serves as Clare’s Assistant Amateur Sleuth, resulting in a hilarious chase scene through the streets of Brooklyn.

Good, solid plotting, snappy writing that has an attractive urban edge, wonderful dialogue:

Tucker: Omigawd, Esther! There’s something you don’t know!
Esther: Put a designer sock in it, Tuck
Tucker: Don’t get snarky, goth girl

and authenticity in ambience characterize this installment in a delightful series.

Highly recommended.

OK OK....I think you've convinced me that I have to read more of these. I did the first one last year, and have a couple sitting here, but just haven't prioritized correctly. You definitely have motivated me to re-arrange the pile (after I grind the coffee beans that is).

#23: Oh I'd say you have your priorities straight! Coffee first! Clare would most certainly agree with you. :-)

I am so far behind on reviews that I may never catch up!

27. Espresso Shot
Cleo Coyle

Seventh in the Coffeehouse Mystery series.

Matt has given up the idea--finally--that he and Claire are going to get back together. So, he has proposed to Breanne Summour, beautiful (and predatory) editor-in-chief of Trend magazine, a style-setting publication. Matt’s mother, Madame Dubois, is dead-set against the idea and has performed a number of not-so-subtle and unsuccessful actions to try to get the wedding called off. But someone else seems averse to the marriage--so much so that he or she is trying to kill Breanne before the wedding.

Thus the plot of this solid amateur sleuth/police procedural; it has some nice twists. While her plotting gets better, book by book, the real strength of the series is in the cast of characters and the depth of the characterizations. Madame Dubois, Claire herself, and the fabulous baristas of The Village Blend Coffeehouse--Taylor, Esther, Graham and others--really give muscle to the books. Esther in particular has certainly come into her own with her Russian rapper BB Gun, but all the gang are here and performing to the high standards of the Blend.

For me, an extremely pleasant surprise was the mention of Hacienda Esmeralda’s prize coffee, from accidentally discovered geisha trees on a small part of the plantation, which are highly sought after in the premium coffee market. Since the Peterson farms are here in Panama, in the province where I live (Chiriquí), it was an unlooked-for bonus in the book.

As usual, the reader gets a bit of New York history, especially of the West Village. The famous White Horse tavern, which opened in 1880, is featured this time--the haunt of dylan Thomas, Norman Mailer, and other literary and artistic figures. The old Sixth Precinct headquarters on Charles Street gets its moment in the sun as does restoration in mid-town Manhattan of old buildings by the likes of Cartier and Versace. Teh denouement of the book takes place in one of my favorite Manhattan locales, the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

For those, like me, who eagerly await new recipes, Espresso Shot doesn’t disappoint. Wonderful cookie recipes and a paella as well as coffee tips and recipes fill up a solid appendix.

The series continues to be a multi-level treat. Highly recommended.

#26. French Pressed
Cleo Coyle

Sixth in the Coffeehouse Mystery series.

Clare’s 21 year old daughter Joy is serving her internship year in culinary school at the upscale French restaurant, Solange. To her mother’s intense distress, Joy is also having an affair with the 50-something executive chef of the restaurant, Tommy Keitel. But when Joy discovers the body of her best friend in culinary school, clearly murdered, and then becomes the chief suspect in another murder, Clare and Matt step in to catch the real murderer and get their beloved daughter cleared of charges.

Besides being a coffee fanatic, Coyle is a foodie and this installment allows her to showcase her knowledge of the high-end restaurant business in New York. The behind-the-scenes of food prep and management in such establishments are fascinating; the necessity of always presenting something new and fresh to attract jaded New Yorkers is a survival skill.

The plot is good but the people are better. The irrepressible Madame Dubois (may I be half as adventurous at 79 as she is), Joy, Matt, and the Blend’s baristas are by now well-established with distinct voices and characters of their own. Esther comes out of the pack with her new boyfriend, Russian slam poet and rapper, BB Gun (more prosaically, Boris), a Russian emigré who lives in Brighton Beach. As usual, Coyle uses not just Manhattan and the Village as her background, but other boroughs and neighborhoods as well; Brighton Beach, as the home of Russian (and other) emigrés, is featured, along with a rather sugar-coated version of the Russian Mafia. Many of the one-off characters are extremely well-done, such as the various chefs in Solange; one, the pastry chef Janelle, will return in further books.

As usual, there are great recipes--Clare’s Corn Bread looks really good--and tips for coffee and coffee drinks in a lengthy appendix.

Highly recommended.

28. Holiday Grind
Cleo Coyle

Eight in the Coffeehouse Mystery series.

Christmas is on its way, and despite the Great Recession, Clare and the staff are in the mood. Well, most of them, anyway. Besides decorating The Village Blend, they’re busy dreaming up new, holiday-themed coffee drinks--partly in the spirit of the season and partly because of the coffee house’s bottom line, which needs all the help it can get from a rejuvenated menu in the tough economic times. But while they create their “fa-la-la-la lattes” coffee drinks, a regular visitor--a member of the corps of Traveling Santas (cousins of the bell-ringing Santas of the Red Kettles) is inexplicably late on his usual round. Clare goes out into the snow in search--and finds his dead body in a courtyard not far from the Blend.

This is not one of my favorites in the series, but it is still a strong entry. The plot is good and as usual, Coyle showcases still another borough, Staten Island, where exists the only home in New York designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. Coyle also gives quite a bit of space to the Caribbean community and their traditions. And in another lovely reference to a New York landmark, the main Branch of the New York Public Library with its famous lions, Patience and Prudence (not that many years ago I had my picture taken as I perched atop Patience, I believe) stars briefly.

The cast is still one of the best things about this series. Esther, along with her Russian rapper boyfriend Boris Bokunin, has graduated to something of a star role, and adds her acerbic Goth Girl flavor to the menu, making sure that no one is going to drown in sweetness.

The appendix contains not just the usual recipes for more or less standard coffee drinks and excellent tips on making coffee, but also a glossary of roasting and barista terms. All the recipes for the Fa-la-la-la lattes are included. There are holiday cookies recipes galore, as well as Clare’s holiday variant on biscotti (which are actually quite easy to make, just take a lot of time). There is a terrific recipe for linguine with white clam sauce. It’s a food and coffee lover’s paradise!

Highly recommended.

My goodness, you are on a Coyle kick! :-D

#29: One more to go (review)--probably my favorite--really solid, Roast Mortem.

Talk about a kick--we're waiting for the arrival (we had to import it from the US) for a high-quality burr coffee grinder! I think we've sort of lost our minds over this one. Plus, this is the place to be if you want to sample really high quality coffee beans. We have friends who grow coffee; one of them has a small place right next to Peterson's Hacienda Esmeralda. The other is growing and marketing their own specialty coffee; they roast in small batches. We'll get a bag next Tuesday. With any luck, we'll have our grinder by then.

>30 Joycepa:: Last year I have my wife (a coffee addict) a burr grinder. She's now become spoiled...but not ultimately spoiled. That's reserved for a few weeks when a friend who roasts his own beans is going to show her how...

#31: Addiction is a truly terrible thing. As if we weren't drinking enough coffee before! We still have our drip coffeemaker coffee in the morning--neither of us is willing to spend the time to do the good stuff at 4:30 am. So "bulk" coffee while I'm feeding the dogs. Then later, our precious Mocha Pot coffee with biscotti.........

It may be difficult to get books where you are but it sounds like a great place for a coffee aficionado to live. I had a client who lived in South America. He lived in nice places very reasonably.

It must be a good series to keep you going for nine books. The author has a nice selection of settings for her stories. I just finished Coddington and went through Gottfried's maps at the same time. What Fun!

#33: There are a number of good places to live, so long as you are willing to live in a 3rd world country with all that that means. Problem is for too many people, they look at the superficial aspects, think they're in the US--and then when it's too late find out they're not. We like it here; even with the disadvantages, it's a good place to live. BUT--here in Panama you have to put up with a really appalling national "cuisine", a near-total lack of indigenous culture (nothing like Mexico, Peru, Ecuador, etc)--and the lack of books. But thank heaven for Kindle and other such ereaders! :-)

I bet it WAS fun--Coddington and Gottfried. I think I reviewed his First Bull Run book here, didn't I? Also superb.

I've discovered a new (for me) mystery/thriller series, by Tess Gerritson. Just finished The Surgeon and it's excellent. Gerritson was a physician who turned to writing, and she's really good at it. I've downloaded the next in the series, The Apprentice but have taken a solemn oath not to start another escapist book until I've finished at least one "serious" book. I'm currently reading Dirt Music, which I'm really enjoying, so will finish that before moving on to Gerritson's next.

>35 Joycepa:: I'm desperate for an escapist book. :-) I took on too much serious reading and I need to clear the backlog.

#36: Same here! LOL. So, I'm doing my usual weasel compromise--finish one serious book then, flee to never-never land. Gerritson is good escape but reads so fast that unfortunately, you're back in Reality all too soon.

I've been reading nothing but serious books and have promised myself to read some more escapist books. Right now anything that is not about the Civil War seems escapist. I am almost through with the Coroner's Lunch and also have Thirty Three Teeth, plus I came across a fun book in my library about writing Chinese characters. I recently bought two books by Mario Vargas Llosa but I don't think I consider them escapist.

Oh ye gods, Bill--I have to steel myself to read Vargas Llosa! Everything you didn't want to know about Latin American genocide and related topics. I recently bought The Time of the Hero, and will read that when I have enough serious sins on my conscience to need atonement. (Shouldn't be that long).

I had to stop reading The White War. There's only so much stupidity that even i can read about. But I will take that up again after I read The Apprentice by Gerritson, which is next after Dirt Music.

I do recommend Gerritson for escapist literature after reading about war, any war. She writes very well about serial killers who mutilate their victims, which I find refreshing; after reading about mass slaughter, just one killer at a time seems more than reasonable to handle.

She writes very well about serial killers who mutilate their victims, which I find refreshing Oh, Joyce, I know what you mean, but that line made me laugh out loud. Our office is very quiet today (almost deserted due to very bad weather, and bosses being out of town), and I heard myself echoing through the halls! I recently read The Surgeon too, and thought it was very good. Gerritsen is coming to town as part of our county's library lecture series. I'll be curious to see if she's a good talker, as well as a good writer. I'm glad you're enjoying Dirt Music too---that was my first Tim Winton, and it won't be my last. I loved it.

It is so nice, Linda, to know that there is at least one human being who, from time to time, appreciates what passes for my sense of humor (or irony)! :-)

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to take back (at least for now) the nice things I've said about Gerritsen. I really liked The Surgeon but am appalled at the sequel in the series, The Apprentice. I'm about half-way through and I think it's terrible. Unless the book redeems itself in the 2nd half, that's the end of Gerritsen for me.

Dirt Music was one of those books that started out rather boring for me--then turned into a wonderful, wonderful read. Winton wrote that book with such incredible tenderness and compassion. That's so rare.

I'm so far behind on reviews I may never catch up!

48. The Middle Way
Tenzin Gyatso, The 14th Dalai Lama

Anyone who thinks that Tibetan Buddhism is somehow the path of airy-fairy mysticism is dead flat wrong. In fact, the subtitle of the book--Faith Grounded in Reason--gives far more of an indication of what Buddhism really is. I have often thought that the Shakyamuni Buddha was the first and possibly the greatest systems analyst/process engineer. All the deification and ritual was superimposed, much later. Underneath, the foundation of Buddhism is process analysis: the origin of suffering, cause and effect, and the way to go about extinguishing the causes of suffering.

In The Middle Way, the Dalai Lama expounds on what he considers two crucial texts in the development of Buddhism: Nagarjuna’s Fundamental Stanza’s on the Middle Way and Tsongkhapa’s Three Principal Aspects of the Path. I had trouble understanding significant parts of the section on Nagarjuna, even though I am no stranger to Buddhism. I think the problem lies in the terminology although the concept of emptiness is difficult to grasp all on its own.

I’m not sure I’d recommend this to a beginner, who wants to find out what Tibetan Buddhism is all about. There must be some other books that give a simpler explanation. I think this book is aimed at those who have some knowledge and who are looking for a solid philosophical basis for understanding. Even so, I think that, while it certainly provides insights and clarity on the first reading, to get the fullest benefit possible from this book will require several readings. Certainly, that proved true for me-- I certainly gained from it. But there is too much that I didn’t understand, struggling as I was almost word by word in some sections to absorb the densely-presented concepts. I’ll return to it, probably several times, to see what else I can glean from this closely-reasoned presentation.

Joyce - appropros of nothing on this thread, but I know you're a huge Donna Leon/Guido Brunetti fan, there's a fabulous write-up today (publication day for #20) on Shelf-Awareness

I read it last week (Drawing Conclusions)and it's every bit as good as any she's done.

Just checking in, Joyce. I am gradually getting my LT-feet wet again.

#43: Tutu, I had totally given up on Donna Leon after her last book, which was so terrible that I swore I would never waste another cent on her books. OK, so you give it a good recommendation--I'll try it.

Stasia, I haven't been here in months. But am going to post this review of one of th3e worst books I have ever read so that no one will waste time on it.

Elisha's Bones
Don Hoesel

This is one of the worst books I have ever read. Imagine a Dan Brown wannabe who's out to prove God exists--only with a truly outlandish plot, writing that is about at the level of an 8 year old, and utterly unbelievable characters who are one dimensional at their best. The "plot" revolves around a secret group who, taking over from the ancient Israelites who preserved the prophet Elisha's bones, which supposedly can bring the dead back to life, pass the bones from one set of "caretakers" to another down through the ages, managing to wind up in such places as Egypt's Valley of the Kings, Venezuela, Ethiopia and Australia. The characters act in totally unbelievable ways, the plot is made up of loose ends, and in what I consider a truly outrageous interpretation, killing is justified to keep the secrets of the bones, using the excuse that even the ancient Israelite priests killed to keep the secret. And yet the protagonist "finds God" in two sentences, after he learns how to kill.

This book is an insult to intelligence and to the Judeo-Christian faith community.

Avoid this like the plague.

Joyce,

Let me get this straight - you didn't like it? :-)

Gee, sorry to be so ambivalent!! :-)

I'm SO glad I didn't accept the ARC of that one when it was offered to me. I had a sneaking suspicion it might end up the way you described. The few 'Dan Brown-esqe' Christian thrillers I've read have been garbage, tripe, and very poorly written. It makes the whole CBA publishing group look bad, and I wish they'd just stop allowing such low-quality trash through onto bookshelves.

Yeah, I saw that one too and decided to pass. I just don't get Christian publishing. There's a near 100% crap quotient and I don't understand why publishing crap does God, Christians or really anybody any good.

What really bothers me is that there is no reason for this type of book to be so bad. I have no problem with the idea of religious-based literature but I cannot fathom how anyone can think that this type of garbage promotes a positive view of religion.

I've not had much ambition lately to do reviews, but this book was SO bad I decided to write one. Need to get it on the book's page.

There are a handful of Christian writers who really are good but I miss out on a lot of them because there are so many who write so poorly that I'm often afraid to even try an author. Much of what is sold to an adult market is written at the vocabulary level of a sixth grader. Sad!

Planting Elisha's Bones firmly on the 'Do Not Read' list!

#51: I'd like to read at least one of the good ones, so if you have a recommendation, please post it. I got caught by this one because it is on one of my favorite topics--archaeology. But I had no idea it had this other theme.

To call it "Christian" is a push, I think. There's no mention of Christ in it, actually--just a supposed "proof" of God due to the existence of Elisha's bones. Frankly, if I were a believing Jew, I'd be far, far more bent out of shape. That's why I mentioned the Judeo-Christian community rather than just Christian.

There is no a priori reason why religious literature can't be good. What comes to mind immediately is The Hounds of Heaven. Granted, it's poetry but it's beautiful.

Then there's the Italian series, written many years ago--can't remember the name of the author. Set right after WWII in a small town in Italy. Protagonist is the village priest who has set himself against the Communist mayor of the town--not because the mayor is a bad man but because of his ideology. The priest turns to Christ for advice who often answers in really startling and often hilarious ways. It's funny, written very gently--from time to time I remember it and mean to look it up.

Then there's the Father Brown detective series. That's just what comes off the top of my head at 5:15 am with only 1 cup of coffee! :-)

There's no a priori reason for "Christian" (or any other religious) crap.

I'm going to update my 2011 reading list today--it does look like I read nothing in April, which is hardly the case. I'm in somewhat of a snarly mood, so maybe I'll indulge myself in a review or two.

A snarly mood? I cannot wait to read those reviews!

>53 Joycepa:: Giovannino Guareschi's "Don Camillo" series? I loved them.

ETA: I know they were made into a series of French/Italian films but I've always wished they were done in English. Maybe by the BBC or something.

I just poked around on my shelves and can only find three of the four I know I used to own. I wonder who borrowed that last one (the first volume: The Little World of Don Camillo) and never returned it?

TAD! Those are they!! The very ones! Now I have to track them down!

Just wait, Stasia!

Just because I'm so incensed by that horrid book, I've decided to list the really good religious (of whatever faith) books I know--fictional ones. What pops into mind immediately are all of Rabbi Chaim Potock's books--The Promise, The Chosen, others--and most especially, My Name is Asher Lev, which I think in many ways is his very finest. There was a film made of The Chosen, I believe, in which he played a cameo part.

Tibetan Buddhist:
Eliot Pattison's books set in modern Tibet, starting with The Skull Mantra. These are police procedurals but tibetan Buddhism is integral to the plots.

Roman Catholic/Armenian Catholic with some fundamentalists thrown in:
Jane Haddam's police procedural series featuring Gregor Demarkian--and his Armenian priest sidekick, Fr. Tibor. Also some books feature a community of Roman Catholic nuns--and Demarkian's relationship with the archbishop of Philadelphia is amusing. There are two books that feature fundamentalist Christian ministers, and in surprising ways. Haddam is a thought-provoking author. Overall the series is very good--some books are excellent--but every once in a while, Haddam will get off on one of her pet rants, and then there's a whole book you suffer through. But STILL.

Episcopalian:
Julia Spencer-Fleming's superior series featuring Claire Fergusson, an Episcopalian priest who also happens to be a major in the Army; recent books explore her combat experience in Iraq.

These are books with a specific religious view; religion is part and parcel of the plots (although slightly less so with the Damarkian series).

Many of these books are best-sellers and for good reason. So much so, that with the exception of Potock--who writes about profoundly human situations with tremendous sensitivity and compassion--that the religious angle sort of gets overlooked. But it's most emphatically there.

So those are just the ones I can think of now but if anyone has others, please post them here. The crap is out there and insults everyone's intelligence and sense of the Divine, but there are plenty of good ones to more than counterbalance.

I loved The Promise by Potok. I am glad you mentioned that one. I still need to read My Name is Asher Lev though. Thanks for the reminder.

>56 Joycepa:: I went through a Chaim Potok craze in the 70s. I back-to-backed about five of his books.

On the Haddam front, I read maybe the first dozen or so and then go sick and tired of waiting for Gregor and Bennis to get off the dime that I stopped. I just felt that Haddam had artificially stalled their romance and it was grating on my nerves.

On the religious book front, I enjoy Rumer Godden's stuff. I loved In This House of Brede and Five for Sorrow, Ten for Joy, which are both quite centered around religion. Even her lighter books such as The Kitchen Madonna or The Dark Horse are fun.

Do you like Ellis Peters' Cadfael books? I rather do, though the series went on a bit long. They have religion as a background though the main plot is the mystery.

Stasia and I tried Mika Waltari's The Roman earlier this year...definitely not recommended by either of us on this front.

#58: Yes, absolutely--that's how I felt. What happened around that time was that Haddam's husband came down with cancer and she spent about three years taking care of him and writing basically ok-but-not-great books. I can't remember where she picked up again, but I can tell you that a) she finally got Gregor and Bennis "off the dime" and b) some of her best ones are the later ones.

I totally sympathize with your reaction but if you have the time or the inclination, pick up where you left off because believe me, you'll be rewarded. Unfortunately, I can't remember which one re-starts the series.

On Potok: I have waiting for me, as a reward, The Gates of November which is a non-fiction book. I have to complete my library of his books--I only have 3 and want them all.

Tad: I completely forgot about Ellis Peters' books! Yes, they're excellent--not heavy-duty stuff but still excellent. I have about the first half dozen and am slowly re-completing my library on those.

There is another series set in 9th century ireland featuring an Irish nun/justiciar, Sister Fidelma, I believe. those books are horrendously written and I would not recommend them to anyone. Good for the politics and the religious fights that went on at that time but possibly not worth the effort to plow through.

I'll check out Rumer Godden.

One-offs:

Umberto Eco, The name of the Rose
Laurie King, A Darker Place which is superb in illuminating cults as well as being a very good mystery.

Too bad about The Roman--I loved The Egyptian

Love, love, love In This House of Brede. I also loved The Egyptian. Tad finished The Roman, but I could not.

I'll see if I can pick up This House of Brede on Kindle. It's still early in May and I haven't beggared myself yet, buying books. Still plenty of time to hire out the dogs.

29. Roast Mortem
Cleo Coyle

Ninth in the Coffeehouse Mystery series.

Claire and her ex-mother-in-law, Madame Dubois, are visiting an old friend of Madame’s, Enzo Testa, who owns Café Lucia, a coffee-house in Queens. Enzo has a piece of Village Blend history--a circa 1921 German small-batch coffee roaster that once belonged to the Blend. Enzo, a courtly Italian gentleman in his 70s, is entertaining Madame and Claire in the basement with old vinyl records played on an ancient machine that actually has a diamond needle! Claire goes upstairs to let in Dante, one of her employees--and is blown out of the coffee shop by a bomb.

This is one of Coyle’s best entries in the series--excellent plot, good writing, the usual snappy dialogue and authenticity of setting (Coyle lives in Queens) and wonderful recipes at the end of the book.

BUT.

All modern books have to have romantic interest Or Else. And all such books better have sex scenes Or Else Worse.

Personally, I think that writing erotica well is extremely difficult. Only really good writers can pull it off. Most smart writers who know their limitations will write suggestively, leaving what-comes-next up to the imagination, which is a fine way of doing it. Those writer who aren’t good enough and who aren’t smart enough to know their limitations write really bad sex scenes. Men tend to porno; women are boring.

As for Coyle? She introduced a love interest some books back, a New York cop named Mike Quinn. fine. Sex crept in and at first it wasn’t too bad--just a few pages to ignore. But in Roast Mortem, she does employ it extensively and--yawn. I just simply paged over those sections which unfortunately area significant part of the book.

I like this series and will buy her next one, Murder by Mocha, when it comes out, but she does a lousy job with the bedroom stuff. Because of this, I’ve knocked the rating down for Roast Mortem.

Recommended with reservations.

Joyce,
I've read a few books by Kaye Dacus in which the characters show a strong Christian faith that though subtle is the backbone of the characters. I don't know if you'd call it religious literature, but I enjoyed the fact that the characters were motivated by something other than sex or greed.

#65: Isn't it nice to know that there are other orientations? :-) Thanks for the author tip.

The only reason that I've been calling it religious literature is that I can't think of another, good one word description! :-)

As for Christian fiction, I enjoy Ted Dekker 's work, some but not all of Frank Peretti, Stephen Lawhead. All have a more fantasy bent to them, more or less.

Good to hear from you Joyce. You post a book and everybody gathers.

I have a copy of The Secret of the Kingdom by Mika Waltari. It is historical fiction set in the early Christian era. I have not finished it yet but it is pretty good. I have been very leery of contemporary Christian fiction and you have given me another reason to be careful.

#68: Good to hear from you, too, Bill.

I'm reading the list, that's growing here, of authors who DO write "Christian" fiction and who do it well, at least in the opinion of people whose tastes I share to a large degree. Clearly there are quite a few authors who do it well. Me, I'm extremely interested in questions of religion, spirituality, morality--comes under many different names.

Oh yes, before I get off on a related track: Fr. Andrew Greeley (not sure if he's still alive and/or still writing) writes mystery books, many of which involved religious characters. It's been years since I've read one. They're not particularly well-written, actually--average to mediocre but only because Greeley is not the world's best writer, NOT because his books are offensive--but I used to buy the books because Greeley was one of the first to call out for an investigation into the pedophilia in the Chicago archdiocese (wrote a novel about it) and was one of the first to be totally ignored at that time (we're talking the late 80s). His books were quite successful, making him financially independent of the Archbishop of Chicago of that time and Greeley could therefore more or less thumb his nose at his eminence. So I gleefully supported him in my small way. I heard Greeley speak once at a seminar in Seattle. He's a sociologist, a fine one, and fascinating to listen to.

So, back to the related question. I'm intrigued. What sets the well-done "religious" fiction apart from the sheer crap? If I go back to Potok, for example: he writes with incredible sensitivity and compassion about the way religion impacts lives. His characters are very real and face choices and dilemmas to which we can all relate, no matter of what faith. No one needs to be an Orthodox or Hasidic Jew to be profoundly moved by Potok's characters and situations. Nor are his characters all sweetness and light and profoundly uplifted to sainthood by their faith. But the depth of Potok's questioning, his insight, his exploration of choices, to me is revealed in the hair-raising ending of My Name is Asher Lev.

I'm wondering if we're not at risk of condemning an entire genre unjustly. Maybe what we're really saying is that bad books are bad books, no matter what the slant. Elisha's Bones,as far as I'm concerned, is literary trash no matter what the faith slant. Take out every reference to God and it's STILL a horrible book.

There are some fantasy authors, for example, whose writing I loathe for its utter dullness. And while it's not my favorite genre, I still read in it.

You can tell I have nothing better to do this morning. :-)

I read almost no Christian fiction because for the most part, I find it dreck. The authors seem so bent on getting their message across that they forget that they are writing a book to entertain, not preach. On top of that, a lot of them just flat cannot write.

OK, so what you're saying is that you're objecting to evangelizing disguised as fiction by people who can't write. They want to preach, let them write (bad) nonfiction.

Fair enough. And I feel better. I get terribly uneasy with labels.

I don't read Christian fiction a) because I am extremely uncomfortable with any form of organised religion full stop, but I know this is just my own personal issues. But I, like Stasia, have found most I have read so utterly unable to grasp the basic principles of good writing that they wouldn't be worth my time. I think the stereotype of Christian fiction = poorly written is a fairly accurate one, with some exceptions. Unfortunately stereotypes, while always having their exceptions, come about for a reason. They have a basis in fact.

#72: I think Stasia crystallized it for me, anyway. The label "Christian fiction" is just too broad for my comfort level. But I have a feeling that what most people mean, when using that label, is evangelizing Christian fiction--most of which is badly written. I'm ok with that.

The first several Peter Decker/Rina Lazarus mysteries by Faye Kellerman were quite good, with a strong element of Orthodox Judaism woven through. Like so many series, it deteriorated, but I thought Kellerman found an excellent way to inform while entertaining until she ran out of decent stories. I'll also put in a good word for Marilynne Robinson's beautiful, moving Home and Gilead, in which the characters' Christian faith is essential to the story lines.

Father Greeley was very seriously injured in a taxi accident in 2008. I think that there are definite traumatic brain injury repercussions that he lives with.

I once bought his books because they were the first I'd ever encountered that bridged secular and religious culture. I still wish there was more writers doing this because I think it more accurately represents where so many readers 'live' than so many novels in which faith is completely absent.

I too loved it that Greeley could thumb his nose at the Catholic powers that be due to the money he earned from his writings.

I also avoid most Christian fiction because most of it is mediocre at best. I didn’t have a good explanation for this until about a year ago, when I read Faith and Fiction: Christian Literature in America Today by Anita Gandolfo. She points out that Christian fiction is agenda driven and follows a fairly rigid formula. From the perspective of James Fowler’s stages of faith development, she suggests that the protagonists in Christian fiction are stuck at Stage 3, synthetic-conformity. Their experience of faith is static. She offers an example of a character from a popular Christian series, who “has answers to all situations because she relies on the repetition of traditional language she has inherited. Faced with a choice, she will ‘pray about it’ and ‘ask God what to do’…And God’s voice is easily heard, providing direction as needed. There is never any suggestion that discerning God’s will can be difficult or that an individual can confuse his or her own desires with the promptings of God. In this fiction, the Christian communicates with the Creator with ease and clarity.”

Reading this passage was an “aha” moment for me. Life isn’t like that. It’s messy and complicated, and the best of intentions don’t prevent us from making mistakes and dealing with the consequences.

Some of the writers/books she contrasts favorably with formulaic Christian fiction:
Frederick Buechner
The Red Tent – Anita Diamant
Father Melancholy’s Daughter - Gail Godwin
Ron Hansen
Mr. Ives’ Christmas – Oscar Hijuelos
The Secret Life of Bees – Sue Monk Kidd (who spent several years writing for the inspirational magazine Guideposts)
The Poisonwood Bible – Barbara Kingsolver
Christy – Catherine Marshall (one of my all-time favorites)
Keeping Faith – Jodi Picoult
Gilead – Marilynne Robinson
Abide With Me – Elizabeth Strout
Saint Maybe and Dinner at the Homesick Restaurant – Anne Tyler
In the Beauty of the Lilies – John Updike

Two popular authors of Christian fiction who receive qualified praise:
Beverly Lewis
Redeeming Love – Francine Rivers

#75 I was drawn to Father Greeley's books for much the same reason, Nancy. In the 70's and 80's, I think, I read quite a number of them. His characters reminded me of people I knew...the large Irish Catholic families of my experience, in which you'd always find a priest, a nun, a cop, a doctor and a black sheep who might make more money than the rest of them. Their faith wasn't evangelical -- it was just a part of who they were. And some of the bad guys were church leaders. I eventually burned out on his books, or he did. I had not heard about his accident.

>77 laytonwoman3rd:: Their faith wasn't evangelical -- it was just a part of who they were.

For me, that's an essential ingredient. I don't mind all books with an agenda but I do mind religious books with an agenda...just a personal preference.

#75, #77: First of all, I'm really saddened to hear about Greeley's accident. and #76, yes, life is messy and there are no guarantees. To add to your point, Linda, Greeley, of course, is Irish and spent his time as a parish priest; given his background and vocation, yes, he can write about ordinary, every day people.

#76: Thank you for that most illuminating analysis by Gandolfo. Yes, it is an "aha" moment. So--there's formulaic Christian fiction the way there is formulaic romance--ok.

Also, everyone, thank you for the lists of authors who have thoughtfully integrated religious themes into their fiction. As someone pointed out, it's a relief to read works in which the motivations are other than sex, greed, and I'll add, power. I've know very real people whose entire lives were/are motivated by a desire to live, as best as they can, Christ's message, living lives of volunteer poverty, often putting their lives at risk and all too often dying for that motivation. And believe me, many of these people are no saints. But their motivations ARE different, and deserve that recognition. When it comes across in fiction--real life, messy, complicated, riddled with mistakes--I think it serves a good purpose.

Not too long ago, I had a personal reading crisis--what to read that wasn't about organized murder (war), random murder (mysteries) or today's life (dysfunctional at best, motivated by greed, sex, and power). I realized that my library was full of that kind of stuff--and I wanted a break, wanted to read something different that wasn't syrup and phony. (I really don't want much out of life). Best I could do was read Dorothy Dunnett's excellent historical fiction series, the Lymond Chronicles and The House of Niccoló. There were enough of the books and each long enough that I could get over my existential reading crisis in fairly good shape. Now I'm having fun with the History of the Siege of Lisbon which is all about language. But it's back to mass murder soon--there's a book on the Battle of Chickamauga I want to read.

Thanks for all the input, folks. Personally I've found the discussion extremely illuminating. All additions are welcome.

30-34: The Haunted Bookstore Mysteries
Alice Kimberley

The Ghost and Mrs. McClure
The Ghost and the Dead Deb
The Ghost and the Dead Man’s Library
The Ghost and the Femme Fatale
The Ghost and the Haunted Mansion

Alice Kimberley is one of the pen names of Alice Alfonsi who is perhaps better known as Cleo Coyle, the author (along with husband Mark) of the Coffeehouse Mystery series.

I decided to wrote a general review of these, the first 5 books in the series, because I really don’t like them; why do five reviews that say the same thing: boring characters, uninteresting location, mediocre dialogue, and dull plots.

Prudence McClure is a widow who, along with her aunt, owns bookstore in a small town in Rhode Island. She has a typical pre-teen son who gives the standard, predictable trouble. About the only thing different in her life (and the books) is that 50 years previously, right after WWII, a hard-boiled New York private eye was murdered in this self-same bookstore and his ghost inhabits the place. Naturally, Prudence and Jack the Ghost become acquainted and there is the predictable is-this-for-real-or-am-I-losing-it sequence.

There are some local “characters” (predictable) and tepid plots. Jack does add a certain cachet to the series, but it’s not enough to overcome the (at best) average writing and the other lacks already mentioned.

I read all five because a) I was bored that week and b) I kept hoping that somehow the series would redeem itself. It didn’t, at least for me, in 5 books and I have no intentions of checking it out further.

Recommended if only to see how good The Coffeehouse Mysteries are in comparison. If you can’t check them out of the library at a time that you’re desperate for something to read, don’t worry--you're not missing much.

#73: I think Stasia crystallized it for me

First time for everything! lol

Interesting discussion about religious fiction going on here, Joyce.

I think I agree with most of the points made in the above discussion. I've found most of the avowedly Christian fiction that I've read, stuff put out by Christian publishers, to be of low literary quality and blatantly preachy. And, in my opinion, most of the theology is pretty shallow, too.

The novels with religious themes that I've generally enjoyed the most have come from "mainstream" (not exclusively Christian) publishers and imprints. I'll chime in with all the praise of Gilead -- I loved that book. Books like that help me examine faith issues in a positive way. I like the Spencer-Fleming mystery series, too.

Christian fiction is incredibly popular with our library patrons. What really bothers me is that some patrons will read ONLY Christian fiction. I read, in part, to broaden my horizons, to understand people who lead different lives and hold different beliefs than I do. Books can help do that -- but only if you take off the blinders and read a variety of books written from a variety of viewpoints -- not all one dogmatic formula.

#81: Yeah, well Stasia, I'm getting to the point where I'll take all the help I can get!!

Interesting discussion about religious fiction going on here
Personally, I've been thrilled with it.

#82: I have not read Gilead yet but have it somewhere on my Wish List. Going to have to bump it up. But you make a point with which I'm in total agreement--fiction that treats religious issues seriously, including "just" in the way the characters live their lives as members of a faith community, are important for exactly the reason you mentioned.

As for those who will read only one point of view--what can you say?

#83: As for those who will read only one point of view--what can you say?

Stupid, stupid, stupid

#84: I tend to think that it's fear, Stasia. Whether it's just one religious point of view, one political point of view, whatever--I really think that such people live their lives locked in fear, too afraid to let something else in that might rock what little (and usually false) security they think they have.

For example, there's one American ex-pat here who is utterly obsessed on the theft that goes on here. Yes, it does--this is after all Latin America but I suspect that it's probably less and less dangerous than in most parts of the US. BUT that's his world view. Not too long ago, his small dog disappeared. We do have coyotes here, and I know in one area in Seattle, no less, where I used to live, trying to have cats or small dogs was really problematical because of the coyotes that hung out in a natural area near by. But what is his point of view? His small dog--nothing special, just one of the many mutts you can find around here--was stolen. And there is no reasoning with him.

Totally in agreement with your first paragraph, Joyce. I believe it's also why so many fundamentally religious people insist on trying to "convert" everyone to their own belief system. The very existence of people who don't subscribe to the same set of beliefs is a threat. I'm sure most of this is subconscious.

The very existence of people who don't subscribe to the same set of beliefs is a threat.

I've thought so for a very long time.

My partner talks about how her college (Marshall University in West Virginia) had a comparative religion requirement for a liberal arts degree. Some students would quite literally plug their ears when the lecture was about a non-Christian religion. Others would leave the classroom if Christian dogma that didn't match their worldview was brought up in discussion.

I hate that at such a young age they somehow came to believe that discussion of IDEAS could threaten their belief system. Kind of breaks my heart.

#88: When you consider the amount of energy necessary--exerted--to block out any differing views AND information, then what you are faced with is someone who is acting out of sheer terror. Ignorance is one thing but this goes way, way beyond ignorance.

I grew up in a household where there was only one way of doing things - there is only black and white in that world, no gray. I hope I never go back to living that way again.

I think that once anyone has broken free of that type of environment, it's probably psychically impossible to return to it. I don't think anyone really wants to live in a strait jacket of any kind.

Unfortunately there are some who do appear to want this type of life. The straitjacket for some is a cocoon that provides a false sense of security in a fast changing world.

I suppose that's true, but it's such a waste of life.

Hey, Bill--I'm studying The Maps of Chickamauga simultaneously with rereading Cozzens' book on the battle, and it is really worth while. The atlas is absolutely beautifully done; one quibble I have with the maps is that sometimes you have to intuit just which road is, say, the La Fayette Road and which one is Peavine Creek, but other than that, it's really well done. Cozzens' book is, of course, more complete--gives the political picture (meaning politics in both armies) as well as battlefield, but so far, the atlas is avery, very worth while.

What really amazes me about my growing years is that no matter how strong a Christian faith both of my parents had and practiced, it did not prevent them from being friends and associating with people of other beliefs. They showed all of us that God was God no matter how you worshiped and I am proud that now I do the same, I have even been fortunate enough to "celebrate" non-Christian holidays with friends.

#94: I will ALWAYS believe that those who have a strong, secure faith will never be afraid to listen to and respect the belies of others. To me, only the really insecure are so terrified that they must turn away from anything that threatens what has to be a fragile hold on their faith system.

I personally don't find it amazing that your parents were that way. :-) Just tells me who they were! Weren't you the fortunate one!

I think that stories like yours are more common than not. It's just that the others, whom I believe to be in the minority, just make a lot of noise out of all proportion to their numbers.

I'll tell here a story that I'm fond of that happened to me a good 30 years ago. I went with a Jewish friend to seder--the public part--at Passover one year. There I met several Jewish women who believe me had made no effort to learn about Christianity. My friend Mark introduced me as a Catholic and somehow we got on the topic of the Christian Easter and the Last Supper. This one woman frowned in real puzzlement and said, "That was seder, right?"--and I realized for the first time that yes, what Christians term the Last Supper was in reality the Jewish seder. It had never dawned on me before. Pays to see what others believe--you learn a lot.

ETA: I think I've related this story before here on LT--as I say, I'm fond of it--and if all of you have "heard" it before, put up with me--I freely admit to losing it (if I ever really had it to begin with)! LOL

It's always bothered me that the difference in calendars means Easter does not always come after Passover as it ought to.

#96: Due to the Catholic church early on changing it deliberately so that Easter would come before the Jewish holiday. Just like Christmas was changed to coincide with a pagan solstice holiday. Same reason, both times--oneupsmanship.

Well, Easter doesn't always come before Passover, either. They both move around.

That's because not even the Catholic Church could control the Moon's movements although I'm sure it tried. :-)

LOL @ 99!

Joyce, I lost you when you transitioned threads way back when, and didn't realize it until this week when I was searching back threads to catch up after my trip to Kansas! And fascinating discussion...Alan Watts wrote an article in the late 60s, "The more deceptive idols are not images of wood and stone but are constructed of words and ideas--mental images of God. Faith is an openness and trusting attitude to truth and reality, whatever it may turn out to be. This is a risky and adventurous state of mind. Belief, in the religious sense, is the opposite of faith--because it is a fervent wishing or hope, a compulsive clinging to the idea that the universe is arranged and governed in such and such a way. Belief is holding to a rock; faith is learning how to swim--and this whole universe swims in boundless space."

An "old-fashioned" author who wrote from the 30s through the 60s, Elizabeth Goudge imbues her stories with a strong faith that illuminates her stories and is never banal or preachy. the Dean's Watch is one of my favorites, as is the Rosemary Tree.

#101: Perfectly lovely quote, Roni. I'd forgotten how lucidly Watts wrote.

Thanks for the author tip as well. I should go through this thread and collect the reccs, put them in one post.

I will do that--as soon as I stop feeling somewhat harassed. Was getting my 2nd cup of coffee when I saw, to my horror, a 1 1/2 to 2 foot snake slithering across the kitchen in front of the refrigerator, headed quite possibly towards my bedroom. Killed same (snake, not fridge) with machete I keep handy out in the lavenderia. Only 2 ways it could have gotten in, and today is dedicated to eliminating one of the ways. Although I'm resting at the moment from my weekly labor of baking biscotti.

Was talking casually with next-door neighbor (NOT the dog-killer) about the adventure of living here. Boy, do I have a one-up on any of HIS stories! :-)

I'm from Kansas, where snakes that aren't poisonous are beneficial. I have a feeling things may be different in the tropics?

#103: In WA, almost all the snakes encountered were non-poisonous and beneficial. Here, the overwhelming majority of the snakes--because the fer-de-lance is so prevalent--are poisonous. They're still beneficial. BUT--they need to be beneficial OUTSIDE the house, not inside!

This makes the 2nd snake "encounter within a couple of weeks, unusual for us. One morning a couple of weeks ago, we opened the door to the front porch to let one of the cats out--and there was a 2-foot long snake on the porch! But dead. We figured one of the cats left us a present.

The fer-de-lance varies pretty wildly in its coloring, and I'm no snake expert, but statistically, given the overall black coloring with patterning, it probably was a young fer-de-lance. Unusual for this time of year, but we've had so much rain in the past 12 months, with this May wetter than normal, that we may have a heavier snake population than normal. Plus, we have a wide swath of "jungle" in back of our house.

When I was about eleven years old I lived in Orlando, Florida. One morning I walked out on the front porch and there was a three foot long coral snake. They are not as deadly as a fer-de-lance because they can't strike very well but their venom is very deadly. I didn't feel like I was in real danger but it was close enough for me.

If you are interested in Christian fiction written by someone who can write, try Francois Mauriac (who won the Nobel Prize in the 1950s.) The Viper's Tangle is one of my favorite novels. It starts as letter written by a man to his wife, who he has hated for 30 years. The title translates several ways. Also, C. S. Lewis' Till we have faces is very good as well. It's a re-telling of the Cupid and Psyche myth from the perspective of Psyche's older sister.

Thanks to the discussion on your thread, Joyce, I did a re-read of Potok's The Chosen, which I loved as much this time around as I did the first time I read it.

>80 Joycepa: I read the first in the Haunted Bookstore series several years ago and didn't like it. I haven't bothered to try any others in the series since.

Re: Christian Fiction discussion - I agree with much of what has been said. When the Christian fiction genre was first being popularized, I got hooked on one author, but I often found myself glossing over the evangelistic pitch at the end of the book because I knew exactly what it was going to say. I tried a few other authors, but their writing didn't measure up to that of my then favorite Christian fiction author, and I never bothered continuing with their sequels. One thing that I realized even then was that the writing was more on a middle school level than an adult level. The books in that series reminded me of the Little House books that I had grown up loving, and I think that's why I enjoyed that particular series. I do even now occasionally pick up a Christian fiction title, and I'm usually disappointed. I've really enjoyed some of Donna Fletcher Crow's better works. (Some of her earlier ones were more formulaic, but she has some that are far superior than most other Christian fiction books out there.) As is pointed out in post 76 in this thread, there are plenty of books out there that do meet standards (some of which were not necessarily published by Christian publishers). I read Potok's The Chosen many years ago, and I loved it.

#105: This was a small fer-de-lance, and the receied widom is that they are more dangerous because they don't eat very often so the venom is concentrated. But I have to say, I felt sorry for the poor snake. The only way you would be in danger is if you stepped on the thing in the dark or something like that. The poor thing RAN as soon as it felt me come near--probably knew I had a machete. I hit it once, did NOT kill it, unfortunately, and it did coil to strike. All I could think of was how graceful it looked, slender and elegant--and then I hit it in the neck and nearly decapitated it.

We have coral snakes here and I'e seen two of them over the years, but small, small, small--nothing at all as you've described.

BTW, Maps of Chickamauga continues to be excellent, better than Cozzens' book.

#106: I think the French are fascinating--either they totally reject religion or they treat it with amazing creativity. bot authors mentioned will go on the list.

#107: Crow will go on the list, too.

Stasia, thornton--I just bought My Name is Asher Lev--it's been out of my library for many years--and am savoring the moment when I reread it.

I have really got to get to My Name is Asher Lev! I want to read the other Potok I have in my personal library first though.

Stasia, I notice on Goodreads that you're reading Old Men at Midnight. How do you like it so far?

The Maps of Chickamauga will have to go to the top of my wish list. I enjoyed the book on Gettysburg and that battle did not have the amount of maneuvering by the different armies that Chickamauga did.

Bill, I really love this format that Gottfried created. Chickamauga was one heck of a confusing battle. You're absolutely right--the amount of maneuvering and shifting around was something else; I don't remember any other battle like it in the Civil War. But this format of text on the left, maps on the right really really does a splendid job.

There are mistakes, but you can detect them and there are few.

I'm looking forward to other books in the series. I now have all three that are available.

My Name is Asher Lev
Chaim Potok

Asher Lev is the son of a devout Ladover Hasidic family. His father, an important aide to the Rebbe, the spiritual leader of a world-wide community of Hasidic Jews, continues in the family tradition of serving thje Ladover Rebbe through traveling--meeting with other Ladover community leaders, delivering personal messages, helping to found new Ladover yeshivas in war-torn Europe, and especially bringing Ladover Jews out of the Soviet Union and into the US. Born after WWII, Asher is expected to follow in the family tradition. But to his family’s alarm and bewilderment, Asher shows no interest in a traditional life; instead, he draws, incessantly and then learns to paint. These activities are not acceptable in the Ladover community, considered at best childish and at worst demonic possession from the Other Side--in other words, evil. Inevitably conflict arises with his father.

Caught in the middle of all this is Asher’s mother, who tries to keep peace and faith with both husband and son. The book is the story of Asher’s growth from childhood to adulthood and the decisions he faces as he strives to preserve his artistic integrity--and indeed, his very life--despite the terrible pain he knowingly inflicts on those he loves the most.

I consider this the best and most powerful of Potok’s fiction. He always wrote about moral choices, but in this book, the stakes are the highest and the choices the most agonizing. It’s written in his inimitable style, with short, declarative sentences conveying the impression of the rhythm of Yiddish dialogue; his descriptions of the Crown Heights section of Brooklyn and Asher’s perceptions of something as ordinary as rain are lyrical. I consider that his characters in this book are the most complex and the best-developed of those in any of the other novels, particularly his parents but also others such as Jacob Kahn, his mentor in the art world.

This is a not-to-be-missed book.

#111: Old Men at Midnight is basically a trilogy of novellas each telling a separate story, but tied together with one character. Thus far, through two of the novellas, it is not nearly in the same league as The Chosen.

I bought it anyway, Stasia.

I read The Chosen and, although I didn't expect to be, I was absolutely blown away. It's completely stuck with me. I'll see if my library has any more by Potok.

The Chosen was one of my favorite books in my youth (many moons ago), and I still love it (might be time for a reread). I thought the movie version was very well done (might be time for a re-viewing). Thanks for all of the excellent discussion on religion in fiction!

Karen O.

I saw the film of The Chosen, which, I agree, was excellent, too many years ago. What I remember is Potok's cameo, in a study hall--one of the professors at the yeshiva. I would love to get his history of the Jews, Wanderings, but it's out of print, I guess, because the cheapest copy I could find--I think of the paperback--was something like $53--I almost chocked. Guess I'll wait on that one.

I have always appreciated and have been thankful for the thoughtfulness and directness of the people who have contributed to the discussions that have popped up on this thread. I always learn something, always.

Tomorrow is so busy that every time I think of what I have to do, I consider not getting out of bed in the morning. But I should have time on Sunday; I Intend to collect into a coherent list all the recommendations made in the discussion and post the list here.

Joyce, I have a copy of Wanderings, given to me by a dear friend when he was downsizing due to a terminal illness. Mine's an old hardback. I've not read it, although after this discussion I intend to. When I finish it, which may not be for some months, I'd be glad to send it on to you.

Roni, I would LOVE that! Many, many thanks!

Thanks for the mention of Wanderings, Joyce, a book of which I had never heard. I checked PBS and there was a copy available, so hopefully I will have it in hand soon.

PBS? As in Public Broadcasting System? For sale?

PaperBackSwap.com. Like BookMooch, it's a book trading site, although unfortunately only within the US.

ETA it looks like they still have copies available on PBS. Bookmooch has four of his books available, but not that one.

#124: I have this feeling that that has already been explained to me at least once. Clearly, it hasn't stuck so far.

Sorry, Joyce. I thought you knew what it was. Yes, PBS is PaperbackSwap, as Roni explained. Thus far, my request has not been accepted. Fingers crossed for that :)

Stasia see #125. Ah well.

#127: For the first year or so I was here on LT, I had no idea what it meant either until I finally asked.

As promised:

Religion in Fiction/Religious Fiction
Recommended by at least one person

The Little World of Don Camillo (and others) by Giovannino Guareschi (Catholic)

The Chosen and other novels by Chaim Potok (Jewish)

The Skull Mantra and other novels featuring Inspector Shan by Eliot Pattison (Buddhist, police procedural)

Father Brown mystery series by G.K. Chesterton (Catholic)

Not a Creature Was Stirring and the rest of the Gregor Demarkian police procedural series by Jane Haddam (Armenian Catholic, Roman Catholic, evangelical Christian)

In the Bleak Midwinter and the rest of the Clare Fergusson/Russ Van Alstyne police procedural series by Julia-Spencer-Fleming (Episcopalian)

This House of Brede and others by Rumer Godden (Christian)

The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco (medieval mystery, Catholic)

A Morbid Taste for Bones/Brother Caedfel series by Ellis Peterson (medieval mystery, Catholic)

A Darker Place by Laurie King (religious cults) and the Mary Russell/Sherlock Holmes series, many of which (such as A Monstrous Regiment of Women and A Letter of Maryhave religious elements to the plots (Jewish, Christian)

Kaye Dacus books (Christian)

Ted Dekker’s books (Christian, fantasy)

Andrew Greeley’s books (primarily mystery, primarily Catholic)

Peter Dekker/Rina Lazarus mysteries (first ones in the series) by Faye Kellerman (Orthodox Judaism)

Home and Gilead by Marilynne Robinson. Gilead is Ames's story; Home is Boughton's. But they were friends, so we meet them both in each book

Frederick Buechner (Christian)
The Red Tent – Anita Diamant (Christian)
Father Melancholy’s Daughter - Gail Godwin (Christian)
Ron Hansen (Christian)
Mr. Ives’ Christmas – Oscar Hijuelos (Christian)
The Secret Life of Bees – Sue Monk Kidd (who spent several years writing for the inspirational magazine Guideposts) (Christian)
The Poisonwood Bible – Barbara Kingsolver (Christian)
Christy and Julie– Catherine Marshall (Christian)
Keeping Faith – Jodi Picoult (Christian)
Abide With Me – Elizabeth Strout (Christian)
Saint Maybe and Dinner at the Homesick Restaurant – Anne Tyler (Christian)
In the Beauty of the Lilies – John Updike (Christian)

Two popular authors of Christian fiction who receive qualified praise:
Beverly Lewis
Redeeming Love – Francine Rivers

The Dean’s Watch and The Rosemary Tree by Elizabeth Goudge (Elizabeth Goudge is Anglican. Her father was clergy, and the great cathedrals of Ely and Wells as well as the smaller churches of the countryside are nearly as much characters as the people.)

The Viper’s Tangle by François Mauriac (Christian)
Til We have Faces by C.S.Lewis (Christian)
The Mitford series, Father Tim, an Anglican priest as protagonist by Jan Karon (Anglican/Episcopalian)

The Curate's Awakening and A daughter's devotion by George MacDonald. look for editions from 1980s and 1990s (Christian)

Finding Nouf by Zoe Feraris. (Muslim). A mystery novel set Saudi Arabia, and the main character is a very religious Muslim Palestinian desert guide

I went carefully through the posts and hope I have not missed anything that was recommended. If I did, let me know and I’ll add it.

Also, in Christian fiction, where the denomination was not specified, I simply put “Christian”. I’m pretty sure that the protagonist of Gilead, for example, is of a specific denomination but don’t know what it is. Again, tell me, and I’ll edit the list.

I am familiar with about a third of the books listed here, and can say that while all have religion as an integral part of their story line, not all present a totally positive view of that religion or religious denomination. But at least with the ones I've read, all are thoughtful or I wouldn't have recommended them.

Thanks for the post, Joyce. When I am home I will print it out and see how many of the books which I have not read my local library carries.

Check periodically for additions. I just got through editing--adding more.

OK, will do!

Marilyn Robinson's two main characters are both Protestant ministers--one Congregationalist (Ames) and one Presbyterian (Boughton).

OK--but which is in what book?

Joyce, Elizabeth Goudge is Anglican. Her father was clergy, and the great cathedrals of Ely and Wells as well as the smaller churches of the countryside are nearly as much characters as the people.

#134 Gilead is Ames's story; Home is Boughton's. But they were friends, so we meet them both in each book.

That's a lot of research Joyce. I would like to think that good Christian fiction could be entertaining.
I remember seeing Don Camillo books in my house when I was young. It must have been because they were good books because there were no Catholics in my house.

#138: Unfortunately, I can't take credit for it--just collated all the posts which didn't take me anywhere near as long as I thought it would. Now it's just editing and updating.

The Don Camillo books ARE good. I got rid of what I had--and I never had all of them--4 or 5 libraries ago in a move--probably my cross-country one from Nebraska to Oregon.

The Gift of Asher Lev
Chaim Potok

It is 20 years after the events in the first book, My Name is Asher Lev. Lev has lived those years in France--currently in a small town in the south of France. He is married, with two children, his daughter Rochelel and his young son Avrumel. Lev has just had a disastrous show in Paris; while all his works sold, those critics he respects have been devastating, calling his work repetitive and worse. Agreeing, Lev is now suffering through a dry period--he can not paint. In the midst of all this, Lev receives a phone call from Brooklyn telling him that his Uncle Yitzchok has died.; he returns to Brooklyn with his wife and children for the funeral, telling himself that it is only for the week of mourning, but full of foreboding and with the terrible feeling that he has seen the last of his home for some time.

The sequel does not have the power of the first book. My Name is Asher Lev covered Lev’s entire life from childhood until young adulthood at 25, a tumultuous time; The Gift of Asher Lev covers a 6 month period of time at age 45. Events moved fast in the first book; there is not that much going on externally in the second, but much, much more happening in Lev’s interior life. The conflict with his father is still there, but muted by the joy the grandparents have in their grandchildren.

But power there is, because Lev is faced yet again with an agonizing choice in which it appears that no matter which way he decides, the personal cost is terrible. His internal turmoil is illuminated by imaginary conversations and meetings with “the Spaniard”--Picasso, now dead some years--and Jacob Kahn, his mentor, also dead some years. He is haunted by his artistic past, never allowed to forget it either in his birth community or with others.

Potok manages to keep the interest high in this book despite a deceptively “slow” unfolding of the plot, through various writing style devices; he constantly shifts from past tense to present tense, even when describing the same scene. It jolts the reader awake and alert; it is very effective. also, if the two books are read close together in time, it is evident from the beginning that the 2nd book is sharper, harder-edged. There are many lyrical passages but the sequel does not have the dream-like quality that pervaded much of the first book. Lev is middle-aged, with a family, and the world is different.

While in his previous book, Potok wrote sympathetically of the Hasidic Jewish community, this book shows some of the darker aspects of what is a fundamentalist religion. The Rebbe, considered a saint, is not above reaching for secular power, and Lev’s father is a willing aide, traveling to Washington and to Israel in an attempt to influence elections. There are a few sentences in the book that make it very clear that the Rebbe and therefore the entire community that follows him, slavishly, is not a “liberal”; Asher’s father says, “We are not going to vote for the homosexuals. We are not going to vote for the abortionists” as he explains why practically the entire community, under direction from the Rebbe, will support the Republican party. Lev’s wife Devorah dismisses Dukakis as someone who, in France, would be seen as weak, as lacking in his convictions. Power, strength are admired--and sought. Other results of the conservative way of interpreting Torah are also brought out in Asher’s conflict with his cousin Yonkel, one of Yitzchok’s son, over the father’s art collection, which has been left to Lev in his care. It is clear that males are more important than females, no matter how much daughters are loved.

While it does not have the glamor of the first book, The Gift of Asher Lev is yet another thoughtful--and powerful--book from Potok. Not to be missed, after reading My Name is Asher Lev.

I thought I's make an addition to the Fiction/Religious Fiction list: anyone who enjoys Catherine Marshall's Christy should probably try her Julie. Julie's father has left the ministry and moved the family to Pennsylvania where he's going to run a local newspaper. There new town is a steel mill town and much of the book focuses on class/economic issuses, but there are plenty of spiritual and other crises to fill the pages.

While not everything about this book works for me, I like it very much. In case there's any question, it is definitely Christian.

#140: Not to be missed, after reading My Name is Asher Lev.

Duly noted.

#141: I had forgotten about Catherine Marshall's books. I have several of them, but I do not believe Julie is among them.

ETA: I checked and I do own Julie. Catherine Marshall was among my grandmother's favorite authors and I inherited the majority of her books.

I don't think anyone has mentioned Jan Karon's Mitford series here yet. Her main character is a gentle Episcopal priest, Father Tim, and she began her writing career at age 50, with serialized stories about him in her local newspaper. She was a teenaged mother, who worked her way up from receptionist to advertising executive, and then to published author. Gotta love her story. Her novels are cozy and character-driven, with a lot of humor and not much sentimentality. Her world is a sane place to escape to once in a while.

I remember the Mitford series--read them many years ago and loved them.

They're somewhat old and can be harder to read, but George Macdonald's novels, set in Scotland, are charming and full of honest faith. In the 1980s and 1990s, a man named Michael Phillips edited them for modern readers (very well, I thought) and they are very good. I haven't read them all, but I liked The Curate's Awakening and A daughter's devotion

I'm adding to the Religion in Literature/Religious Fiction post as new info and recommendations show up here. So-check it out.

For ONCE I'm rather impressed by the changes to the site! May come to something yet.

So, do you see the difference between using the "Reply" option as opposed to using the new "Add a message" box? 'Cause I don't. And there's no "Back to the top" clicker anymore. Pfffft.

No, no difference between those two. But there is a "back to the top" button--look in the upper right hand corner at the almost invisible upward arrow.

I do like the changes to the edit and delete functions

>147 laytonwoman3rd:: There's no difference. I've put my suggestion here.

ETA: The up arrow got much more visible today. Almost everyone was unhappy with how pale it was.

#148, 149 Well, now I've come to see that the difference is you can post from any message in the thread by using "Reply", rather than needing to scroll all the way to the end to "add a message". Not that I see the great urgent need for that, but still... And the arrow thingie? Still much too faint and hard to identify as an arrow even when I KNOW that's what it is. I like words. Not icons. *grump*

I wanted to add that I read Finding Nouf by Zoe Ferraris, a mystery novel set Saudi Arabia, and the main character is a very religious Muslim Palestinian desert guide, and religious topics are handled very deftly in this novel.

Just wanted to say, you did a great job collecting the suggestions that were made regarding religion in fiction.

It appears that with all the changes in Talk, you can no longer "force" a touchstone by using the work number and 2 colons before the title as before. If the proper title/author doesn't appear in the list they give you when you click "other," I can't find a way to make a touchstone work for the book. Has anyone else experienced this?

#152: I have and I do not know what to do about it either.

The author touchstones have bee so haphazard for me that I've stopped trying to use them--why bother?

This site--as a Web site--is at best mediocre, saved only by the quality of its forums, which is the only reason why I even bother with it. Time and company spend a god deal of time tinkering with things that do not need tinkering, presenting a flashy look--and a cumbersome-to-use site. Goodreads is infinitely better, a pleasure to use. Great interface, smooth operation. Doesn't have any kind of flashy look, but it WORKS. Carries some of my favorite author blogs as well. Emails me when I have a comment or other interaction on my reviews, for example.

I really dislike LT as a site, but it has everyone else beat hands down with the forums. I've long dreamed of hijacking about 2 dozen or so people from here, setting up on Goodreads, and never returning to this site. Nice fantasy, never work, I know. so I go on both sites every day.

>154 Joycepa:: One of the things I've noticed as I read the comments about the new UI changes is that an inordinate amount of effort is being expended to make sure that something doesn't get bloated. Fine in theory but the practical result of their decisions is that they avoid making changes that would actually make things smoother and easier to use. Some of the arguments about why things aren't done simply astonish me.

#155: I'm resigned to the fact that they live in some other world besides that of making this site more user-friendly. They have their own ideas, and let's not bother them with our needs. This site would fall apart and go to nothing except for the forums. if they only had the type and quality of forum on, say, Goodreads, this site would disappear within a couple of months.

I don't know why the forums on Goodreads lack fire, but they do. Psssibly a better thing to say is that the lean heavily toward group-oriented forums such as mystery group, history, etc. Goodreads doesn't have the type of personal, individual forum that LT has, and that's where it falls down, IMO.

Due to comments here, I've gone to investigate Goodreads. Only just signed up so I have no opinion on useability, but as I mainly use LT for the forums and community, and to a lesser extent in tracking my books, I suspect I will stay loyal to LT.

As a very basic computer user, I wonder what it is that makes GR so much better than LT in terms of usage? What would you both say were the main reasons?

#157: Ease of use. For example, book reviews. Good reads makes it extremely easy to rate and review books. In LT, you have to know the process, which is to track down the book, go to Edit Book, and then put in your review. Nice instructions in a side box on how to do italics, bold, etc in a post. Much, much easier to add books or call them out of either your library or in general. Much less clicking around--smoother, more efficient. I also think that LT complicates things unnecessarily. Goodreads doesn't give you tags, etc., just "shelves" which are more general topics. LT has tags, collections and what not, which I for one find utterly unnecessary.

Goodreads also makes it really easy to follow authors--you just sign up as a fan and lo! you get their posts on the site. I follow Laurie King, Luis Urrea, and Paulo Coelho in this way. Another feature: Goodreads gives you now a choice of entering that your book is a Kindle edition, for example; LT has yet to figure out that such things exist. One very nice feature is a Reading Now one: you can put up the books you're reading and keep track of your progress. Goodreads automatically keeps track of your begin and end dates, which then appear in you page on the book whether or not you choose to review. You're also given the option of introducing them manually, of course, just like LT, but it's also easier.

For me, I think it's that everything is always just a little harder than it has to be. It feels like it started as a power user site where ease-of-use wasn't a factor, then they tried to migrate it to general use without considering that ease-of-use element. Joyce gives one example—the number of steps required just to add a book with a comment about it. Why isn't that simply: 1) Click on Add, 2) Pick from a list, 3) Start typing review. Or, why doesn't "Reply" actually create a real reply...i.e., why is it exactly the same as "Add a new message"? Those two phrases are not semantically identical.

Going back to the power user comment, concepts that should be under an "Advanced" button somewhere are in your face. As a new user, this is off-putting. For example, the distinction between a Work and a Book. I'm not saying that distinction shouldn't be present. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't have to deal with it just to write down that you read a book and would like to make a couple of comments about it.

Yes, once you learn it, the distinction isn't terribly onerous for the user. However, new users are thinking "I want to edit my book. Why are some things on the Work page and some on the Book page. And why does changing some fields pop up a message telling me it's changing my book. And why does it tell me no one has read this book when it's a NY Times bestseller? And why when I first put in my review is it on one page but when I go to edit it from my library it's on another page?"

Why this irritates me is that we've just seen a week spent working out bugs on a cosmetic makeover that didn't add a single feature to the product. Nor did it remove a single unpleasant workflow. All it did was add new bugs for this week. I've worked in software development for decades and it's a truism that simply tweaking an already working user interface (the forum messaging layout) that almost nobody is complaining about without adding new features or simplifying workflows is just self-indulgence. Spend that time fixing the data model that is so clearly inadequate in LT, or putting in one of the features everyone is begging for.

However, the bottom line is that the people are here and the discussion groups are here. Content wins over presentation 90% of the time. So, this is it.

Really well said, Tad! For me, the Goodreads important content is different from that presented by LT so I follow Goodreads and do most of my "work" there. For example, I always put up a book review there first (easier) then come over to LT. I check LT to see if there's something new on my forum and if so, answer it. But I keep track of my library at Goodreads because it's far easier and more complete.

Several people from LT are also on Goodreads. Should that site ever initiate personal forums, I probably won't return to LT. There are many people, including I would say, the majority here on LT, who love community forums--themed book groups ora group read of a particular book. I have found that that simply is of no real interest for me here on LT as well as on Goodreads. I'd miss many of the people here, but there are others on Goodreads with whom I've interacted individually and I think I'd find a new community there. I'd be sorry to lose contact with many of you but would hope that eventually we'd all find one another again on another site.

At Home In Mitford
Jan Karon

Mitford is a small town set in the foothills of the North Carolina mountains. It’s setting is idyllic, yet the inhabitants somewhat less so. They’re quirky and cross-grained at times, though good-natured at heart (mostly).

Ditto for their episocpalian rector, Father Tim Kavanaugh. Sixty years old and a bachelor, Father Tim has ministered to the town’s inhabitants, whether members of his congregation or not, for 12 years. But Father Tim, as he is affectionately known, is not entirely happy with his life. While he loves his work, he has been considering, seriously, retiring from the ministry. Somehow life that is just work is just a little--empty.

There is an old saying--watch out for what you wish because you just might get it. And Father Tim does get it--in spades. First in the form of a monstrous black dog, more or less equal parts of Bouvier and sheepdog, who is unrestrained in his expressions of joy--sometimes dangerous, considering his favorite is to place both huge paws on the chest of his current target and wash the face enthusiastically. But Barnabas is not your ordinary dog--no, he is a dog who is so enamored of Scripture that upon recitation (Psalms seems to work best), Barnabas will immediately settle down with a sigh and attend soulfully.

Then there’s the question of Dooley Barlowe, an 11 year old with a mind of his own, grandson of the church’s sexton. Dooley has been more or less abandoned by his alcoholic mother and is “living” with his grandfather. When problems overtake his granddad, Dooley somehow winds up living with Father Tim--easily filling up any empty spaces Father Tim might have had left over after Barnabas.

The cast of characters from the town is rich, varied, and well developed. Karon’s writing is very good, and she does not spend time with sentimentality, which saves the novel from being banal. Which is good, because this novel is robustly Christian in outlook; Father Tim and the townspeople are not backward in expressing their belief in God and Jesus Christ and giving advice or comfort in that spirit and expression. BUT the book is not “preachy” and there is plenty of entertainment within. However, it’s well to understand that the Christian message is firmly embedded within the story. Indeed, the book could not exist without it. This is not religion in fiction; this is a fine example of religious fiction.

I was intrigued by this setting and Karon’s presentation because one of my very favorite mystery authors. Margaret Maron, sets her stories in North Carolina as well. The authors have much in common besides merely a one-letter difference in surnames. Both are women, both are natives of North Carolina, both have had sophisticated careers. But Maron’s stories take place in the lowlands, just an hour away from the Raleigh-Durham. There is no question that while Deborah Knott’s family may be tobacco farmers and their wives, there is a sophistication in all the characters that probably can be laid to the proximity of the Research Triangle. Karon’s characters are by no means ignorant, but there is a simplicity of outlook and an intensity of religion that is mostly absent from Maron’s Knott series, even though Deborah and her family, Baptists, most certainly take their religion seriously. It’s fascinating to compare the two ouvres.

Highly recommended for those who either enjoy or are entertained by a vigorous presentation of Christianity.

A Light in the Window
Jan Karon

In this second book of the series, we are treated to the further adventures of Father Tim, Barnabas, Dooley, Miss Sadie and all the other now well-established townsfolk. Father Tim is struggling with his relationship with Cynthia--agonizing over the correct action and terrified of making a commitment. But despite his desperation to keep his distance, his has not one but TWO widows after him, one fairly unsavory. The romantic plot thickens.

Meantime, work is going ahead on Hope House, the assisted living home that is the dream of Miss Sadie. Dooley is a teenage handful, and the construction boss on he Hope House site is making himself vastly unpopular throughout Mitford. And life goes on for the residents of this small town set in the Piedmont of North Carolina.

There’s not a lot of action in this book--just every day living, which Karon is superb at bringing alive. She has cut back some on her presentation of Christianity; it’s still there but it’s not as ubiquitous as in the first book; it leans more towards religion in fiction rather than religious fiction.

Highly recommended for those who want a break from action-adventure spy thrillers, police procedurals, and noir in general.

Sounds like I have to give Goodreads a try. I don't mean to pile on but I found it difficult to understand the reasons for the recent changes on LT. As a user I did not feel that they enhanced my use of the website.
I enjoy the forums and have met some really interesting people and been introduced to some good books. I have chronic health problems so LT is a big part of my social life. The last change that made a difference to me was the home page which helps me keep track of various items including the threads that I follow.

I know, Bill. In fact, as far as I can tell, the recent changes actually did away with ease of use in posting messages. Before, you could post anew message from any post. convenient when you start having a lot of posts. But now you have to scroll down to the bottom of the posts. I checked out Reply, but it looks as if it's just Reply to that particular message.

Goodreads has many really nice features that LT simply doesn't have. BUT--not the personal forums, which is too, too bad. If you're into groups, you might check out the Goodreads ones. Several really good ones but again, just not my thing.

Actually Joyce, i tried the 'reply' at the bottom of a message in the middle of the thread, and it does in fact look like it's responding to that message (which makes it convenient if you're coming to a thread after a lot of other posts have happened and want to comment on a specific post) BUT.....when you in fact post, it parks that message at the end of the queue.

So if, for instance, I had hit reply after your msg #87 above, I could type this whole gob in the box, but when I hit the post message button, it's going to post as msg #165 (unless someone has beat me to that while I'm gabbing away here.)

Great, thank you, tutu! Saves me some irritation. Always good! :-)

I like your review of At Home in Mitford, especially your comparison to Margaret Maron's Deborah Knott series. I like both series, but I'd never thought about the similarities and differences between the settings.

#167: Thanks! Since the two were publishing at the same time, it made a comparison all the more inviting. I think that Karon is more lyrical in her language--her descriptions of the fall colors in the 2nd book are marvelous. Maron is far more edgy, but then consider her genre--police procedurals. So you're not going to get the idyllic thing.

I have never read either Karon's or Maron's series. I guess I will try them both so I can compare and contrast too.

What's fun, Stasia, is they are quite different! Both women have won literary prizes for their books, Maron in the mystery genre for her first, Bootlegger's Daughter, which is a gem. One of Karon's middle books won some literary prize, don't remember which one. But both are very good series--I have every one of Maron's, snap them up as they come out. I probably will wind up with all of Karon's as well at the rate I'm going--I'm on the 3rd.

I have Bootlegger's Daughter in the BlackHole, but my local library does not have it unfortunately. It does carry At Home in Mitford though - and probably the entire rest of the series, given that I live in the Bible Belt.

You'd think that the library would also carry Maron's series. Deborah Knott and her family and friends are big-time Baptists, and the books would not be as interesting and have as much depth as they do without the religious aspect. The chapter headings in one of the books contains really clever, creative quotes from the outdoor message boards of all sorts of churches, for example, and it's charming. Religion and the role it plays in people's lives is portrayed in a very positive way.

I will have to look for the Maron series for sure since I am a bigtime Baptist myself :)

You'll like Deborah then. :-)

That is good to know!

>171 alcottacre:: I'm a touch less enamored of the most recent additions to the Deborah Knott books but during those first 10 or so, they were some of the most enjoyable mysteries out there. I tried Bootlegger's Daughter when I saw that it had won the Edgar Award...and the Agatha Award...and the Anthony Award...and the Macavity Award...are there any others given to mysteries? I immediately picked up the next half dozen and didn't regret it for a moment.

It wasn't the mystery aspect; they were kind of average in that regard. It was the depth of character and color I found in them. One of the reasons I'm a little less pleased with the most recent is that Maron has been sending Deborah hither and yon away from the heart of that locale that made them so enjoyable for me.

If you can find one somewhere, I really think you'll enjoy them Stasia.

#176: Thanks for the input, Tad.

I really didn't like Sand Sharks for that very reason, Tad. Same with Winter's Child although I enjoyed that book, whereas I was annoyed with Sand Sharks--that just felt like a payoff for being allowed to attend a judge's conference. Those two could have taken place anywhere. The rest, though, are unimaginable outside of North Carolina. I also agree with the mystery aspect. Good but nothing outstanding. it's the characters and the locale that make the books.

I also think that Maron has adapted her style well to the fact that Deborah is no longer single (no spoilers here, for Stasia!). but yes, Deborah has grown up some and the books are not quite so saucy, shall we say, but that's life--and they're still well worth reading.

I think my favorite is Storm Track, although Shooting at Loons is excellent. IMO, they're all worth reading simply because I enjoy following the characters as well. Both Maron and Karon are fully engaged with their characters, and that keeps both series alive.

#178: Both Maron and Karon are fully engaged with their characters, and that keeps both series alive.

I feel that way about Robb's In Death series. I read it for the characters, not the 'mysteries.'

I'm fascinated with this discussion. I am a HUGE fan of both these series, but never in a month of Sundays would I have labeled the Maron series as even faintly religious. To me they are just good mysteries with a friendly cast of characters that we love coming home to. OTOH, as many have mentioned, the religion in the Mitford series is very easy to take and is actually inspiring in that we get to see a character who is able to live his religion without the proselytizing that turns me off so many others in the genre.

BTW, while I loved Karon's Mitford books, I have not been as enamored of the new "Father Tim" series...I think she's trying too hard. But yes Stasia...you would love both series...many are also available on audio, so do try to check them out.

Tutu, for me Maron's Knott series is an example of religion IN fiction. Can you really imagine the Knott family without them being Baptist? Nadine and Herman and the way Deborah really doesn't like their hellfire and brimstone preacher? Some of the funny scenes in church? I think the series would be much, much less--lose quite a bit--if Deborah and her family were your standard secular I-believe-in-God-but-not-organized-religion type.

Isn't it wonderful the way Father Tim actually evangelizes--and yet we're all rooting him on? I love it. I agree--it's really inspiring.

#160, etc. I looked at Goodreads, but it appeared that the only options for adding books were a) using records drawn from Amazon or b) manually entering all the information -- as opposed to LT, where we can get proper quality library records from Library of Congress and other major libraries. I'm a bit too particular to use Amazon records unless I can't find any other source for the edition in question -- and I surely don't want to manually enter all the information. So I'll just stay here and deal with the minor annoyances. This is a piece of cake compared to our cataloging system at work.

#182: Actually, you can search Goodreads itself but I agree--the options for search are much more limited.

I love the Mitford books. I like the Maron books, but they'll never be among my favorites.

Add me to the list of those who love The Mitford books. There are many things to like about the series, especially the fact that they are cozy reads, but also deal with serious topics.

Since some of my favorite readers are recommending them, I'm adding the Mitford books to my Wishlist. I've avoided them for years assuming they'd be treacly.

Nancy, while I don't think the books are "treacly", there is a very strong Christian presentation. I did not find that offensive or in any way bothersome myself. The first in the series is probably the "worst" simply because she establishes the setting and the characters. I'm finding that the series improves with each book--I just finished the 4th and plan on reading the rest. Karon develops her characters, who are funny and interesting. There are some hilarious scenes in the books, particularly among the priest and his buddies in the Main Street Grill. Try at least the first two.

The Maps of Chickamauga
David Powell and David Friedrichs

The third selection in the excellent Savas Beattie Military Atlas series.

By the fall of 1863, the news for the Confederacy on all fronts was grim. In the East, Lee failed at Gettysburg, while in the West, the news was even worse: Vicksburg had fallen and the Confederacy’s Army of Tennessee, under the inept command of Braxton Brag, suffered a series of defeats and withdrawals. The Tennessee situation was serious; The Union Army of the Cumberland under William Rosecrans had advanced to Chattenoooga, which meant that the heart of the Confederacy was now vulnerable to attack. Rosecrans, eager to finish off Bragg’s army, continued to chase the Confederates into Georgia, over wild and difficult terrain.

The result was the Battle of Chickamauga, one of the bloodiest and certainly one of the most confusing of the war. Added to the difficulties presented by hilly terrain much of which was covered with brush and woods was the fact that both commanders spent the better part of the two days of the battle constantly shifting troops around. Include the smoke of cannon and musket fire, and “the fog of war” becomes peculiarly applicable. Division and sector commanders could not see from one end of their respective lines to the other and coordination between divisions, particularly on the Confederate side, was a nightmare.

Using the format pioneered by Bradley Gottfried in The Maps of Gettysburg, Powell and Friedrichs have done a masterful job in breaking down the battle into more readily understandable segments. The format of text on the left page and map on the right works brilliantly, especially in understanding the various troop shifts.

In addition, Powell brings additional insight into the battle itself. Brigadier General Thomas Wood, who commanded the First Division in Crittendon’s XXI Corps, has long had the onus of losing the battle for the Union side. On the afternoon of the 2nd day, Wood received an order to pull out to support Thomas’ desperate fight on the Union left flank. It has been the received wisdom that Wood, who had been reprimanded earlier in the march to Chickamauga by Rosecrans for not following orders, knew that the pullout would open up a gap in the Union right flank but did it anyway out of spite. Powell gives evidence that Wood did indeed realize what would be the result--and asked for clarification from Crittendon who told him to obey the order. It may be nearly 150 years later, but Powell has done much to restore Wood’s reputation.

Powell also emphasizes a point that is often overlooked concerning Longstreet: while Longstreet has always been admired for his defensive capabilities, he was a powerful offensive fighter as well. The massive blow he delivered at Second Manassas was the turning point of that battle. Longstreet later said that no one could have withstood the assault he made with his corps on the Union right flank, and he may have been right. What is not in any doubt was that Wood’s pullout left a gap of 300 yards in the Union line, making Longsteet’s assault certain of success, although not without casualties.

Another contribution of Powell’s is to emphasize the contributions of certain commanders who often go overlooked. For example, who remembers Colonel John Wilder? Yet his innovative use of mounted infantry saved the Union lines time and time again, particularly on the first day.

There are flaws in the atlas. Sometimes unit designations do not correspond between text and map--describing in the text the action of the 65th Ohio when the map shows it as the 64th Ohio, for example. More problematical is the lack of names on the various roads. LaFayette Road, crucial to the 2-day battle is relatively easy to figure out, but some of the more minor roads mentioned in the text are not shown on the map, leading to ambiguity at times. But these are the type of errors that are usually corrected in a second edition and should not deter anyone from studying this book.

While the major interest will be in Chickamauga, the atlas does include as well maps and description of the battle of Tullahoma which preceded Chickamauga.

Not to be missed for those with more than a casual interest in the US Civil War.

Great review, Joyce! I hope you posted it so I can give it a 'thumbs up.'

Yes, I did, Stasia--and thanks. I really liked this book--I think it's the best so far on this battle. Cozzens has written a very fine book, part of his Tennessee trilogy, but the format of this book puts it head and shoulders above Cozzens'. There is no substitute for graphics to make sense out of the confusion.

#190: There is no substitute for graphics to make sense out of the confusion.

I just finished a book that I wish had had maps in it, especially since I am not familiar with the geography of England at all. There was one chapter in particular where maps would have been extremely useful.

Yes. There are quite a few books that are anything but military history that could use a map or two.

Excellent review! You got a thumbs up from me, too.

I love maps -- I wish more books included them because they can add so much to the understanding of read material. Do publishers think that readers aren't interested in spatial relationships?

I'll be sure to look out for this series when I embark on my planned Civil War reading.

#193: I think it's more because graphics are expensive. And there really hasn't been that much of a demand until recently, I think, with the advent of sophisticated computer-generated graphics. There are some truly excellent Civil War military history books out that suffer from a lack of maps. Everyone complains about it. But this series is a real breakthrough, due to Gottfried and the publishers who were willing to back him. I heartily recommend the other two books--the one on Gettysburg is a must if you want to understand the troop movements of both armies from June 4th to the actual battle. And the maps of the battle itself are terrific. They're probably a liittle harder to follow simply because that battle was so complex. But well worth the time and effort put in.

There are also two very fine texts on Gettysburg. Coddington is the flat out best. It's fascinating to read Coddington while studying Gottfried's atlas. The other is a series of three books by Pfanz, called Gettysburg:The First Day, Gettysburg:The Second Day, and Gettysburg:Culp's Hill and Cemetery Hill. Coddington is easy reading and I recommend it either with Gottfried or alone. Pfanz is heavier going; while I have tried to read both Gottfried and his books at the same time, I never did finish--it's like doing a university course and I have too much going on here to be able to have that much time consecutively. However, the Gottfried atlas can be a stand alone book on Gettysburg.

Good luck with your reading! It's a truly fascinating period for those of us with the interest in US history. It changed the course of the nation.

Glad this one didn't disappoint, Joyce.

I love this series! Can't wait for the next one to come out.

Excellent review Joyce. I gave it a thumbs up. I was #3. I have never tried Harry Pfanz's books on Gettysburg. I felt that the Coddington volume and Gottfried's Maps gave me an adequate knowledge of the battle.

I have been saying that I am going to try to stop reading about the Civil War for a while but it is not happening. It is such an important period in U. S. history and there are many very good books about different aspects of that era I have not read. Now the sesquicentennial is bringing out new titles. I recently read 1861, a good book with a fresh look at the beginning of the war.

For me the only event that compares in importance is the writing of the Constitution and its' ratification. I just finished Pauline Maier's book Ratification and hope to get the review written today or soon.

I am glad to hear that I am not the only one who requires maps to get a good understanding of historical events. I have built up a small collection of historical atlases to provide some help.

What did you think about Ratification, Bill? My knowledge of that period of US history is sketchy at best.

I agree with your assessment of Coddington plus Gottfried. Only a maniac like me wants to go further. But in my defense, I'm fairly certain that the Gottfried book wasn't out when I read Pfanz. Or maybe it was and I'm just showing my broad, broad masochistic streak. Or something.

These High, Green Hills
Jan Karon

3rd in the Mitford series.

Much US fiction, outside of the mystery/police procedural genre, is uncomfortable with death, treating it rather awkwardly. Karon has done a wonderful job with the death of a major character in the series, both in the circumstances and in the impact that the death has on the survivors. It’s rare to see this kind of understanding in fiction.

While Mitford itself may be an idyllic small town, there are plenty of problems in the areas surrounding the town. Communities exist on the river, and these are hard ones, riddled with drug and alcohol abuse. What interested me about this book was the approach Karon has her characters take to the problems. Yes, Social Services are available, through the state as is the case in the US. But Mitford’s slogan is that “Mitford takes care of its own,” and Karon’s presentation is a good one.

With fine writing and continued development of her quirky, interesting cast of village characters, this is an excellent installment in the series.

Highly recommended.

The Gates of November
Chaim Potok

In January, 1985, Chaim Potok and his wife traveled to Moscow specifically to visit Vladimir (Volodya) and Maria (Masha) Slepak, dissident (“refuseniks” Russian Jews who had achieved international fame for their nearly 20 year effort to emigrate to Israel. There were other well-known refuseniks, as well Russian dissidents protesting the brutality of life under various Soviet regimes, but Volodya and Masha represented a special case: Volodya’s father, Solomon Slepak, was on Old Bolshevik, one of the original revolutionaries who fount against the tsar and then on the side of the Communists in the Russian Civil War. Solomon, a fanatic Bolshevik who refused to see anything wrong with the Soviet system and who was an enthusiastic supporter of Stalin, had achieved fairly high rank under the Communist system. But when Stalin began consolidating power, he turned on everyone, including his most loyal supporters; almost all were either executed or disappeared. The central mystery, as Potok says, is why Solomon was never included in Stalin’s purges of the 1930s. Thus Volodya and Masha occupied a special place within the dissident community. The Potoks spent a great deal of time with the Slepak family, recording and transcribing a massive amount of information about the Slepak family in general and Volodya and Masha’s lives in particular.

Potok starts the book’s history with what is known, from family chronicles, about Solomon’s life. Born at the turn of the 20th century to a poor teacher of Jewish children in Dubrovno, on the Dnieper, Solomon experienced from early on the violent Russian anti-Semitism. At age 13, he ran away from home; in the next two decades, he managed to work his way across Europe to live in America; when the Russian Revolution unfolded, Solomon made his way back to Russian where he commanded troops in the Civil War.

Potok follows Solomon’s career as an unofficial Soviet diplomat who spent a great deal of time abroad, mainly in China. Volodya spent a good part of his childhood in China, recalling that as a happy time. Up through his young adulthood, Volodya’s life was a fairly contented one as the child of a member of the Russian elite, attending the best schools and living a life of privilege.

So why did this son of a dedicated Bolshevik turn against his own country losing nearly everything--losing comfortable and important jobs, freedom (he and Masha spent 5 years in exile in Siberia), and risking their lives in a terrible effort to emigrate to Israel?

The answer to that in Potok’s books is a brief history of the Russian Revolution as well as the Russian attitude towards the Jews. There is a great deal about Stalin and his policies, of the attitudes of the dictators who came afterwards, and of the craziness of Soviet policies and procedures. The book contains a wealth of information about Russian dissidents, the Jewish dissident movement, and the reaction of foreign powers to the condition of Russian Jewry at that time.

The book is extremely well written, flowing easily as a narrative, thanks to Potok’s skill in writing fiction. It is quietly factual, never shrill, always focusing on the lives of the people who worked so hard for their own independence. It is never ideological; it keeps true to Volodya and Masha themselves, and that is its greatest strength.

Potok ends the book with the questions: from where does one get the courage to risk annihilation, as he puts it, in order to resist a despotic regime? Would I have the ability to do the same? These, of course, are unanswerable, but perfectly valid anyway, given the story Potok has just narrated.

Highly recommended.

I enjoyed Ratification. A real contrast to politics today. The debates centered around fundamental issues that meant something. Lots of interesting people and the author kept the story suspenseful.

I have only the read the first of the Mitford books, yet I own all of them up to Shepherds Abiding because my mother loved them. I really need to pull out A Light in the Window soon.

#201: I was impressed with the part of your review that mentioned the debates and how they were conducted.

ETA: OK, Bill, despite my sworn oath not to buy another book until I had finished at least 10 of what I own, I just bought Ratification. At a ridiculous price for the Kindle. I probably could get the hardback (half the price) and get it into the country for not much more. I consider bookcase space and try not to whine.

#202: I find the Mitford books interesting as well as entertaining. I'm intrigued by the vision she has of how people, individually and at the community level, can take care of their own. I think in the US you need both individual efforts and organized social services; I don't think just one or the other can do the job. In Latin America, the model is much, much more family and individuals taking care of one another because the social services especially in rural areas don't exist. Period. Churches are crucial to the effort, particularly in Brasil. This is why I have no problem with Karon's vision and presentation of Christianity. It does exist. Perhaps not so much in the US as it did a generation ago, but it does exist. And as for those of us who are not fond of evangelical Christianity--and I am one of them--still, I can tell you that in Brasil, they are the ones who help each other the most. The price they pay for that is very high--isolation--but sometimes survival is a lot more important. The evangelicals clean up their acts.

Out to Canaan
Jan Karon

The word is out--Father Tim is going to retire in 18 months. Bishop Stuart Cullen has made it official in a sermon in which he likened Father Tim’s retirement as an adventure equivalent to Abraham’s venture into Canaan. Suffused with goodwill from the sermon, at first the villagers congratulate Father Tim and wish him well. However, when reality sets in--there will be (unwelcome) change--the complaints start. No one wants to break in a new priest.

But over riding all other concerns is the upcoming mayoral election. Esther Cunningham has been mayor since Before The Flood; her motto might as well be Mitford’s--”Mitford takes care of its own”--and her platform of no development has been a popular one. The people of Mitford are also aware that Cunningham, despite her low key approach, has done a great deal of good for Mitford, among which has been a new ambulance.

But Mitch Stroupe is opposing Esther on a platform of change that will be good for Mitford--and he is spending a great deal of money. At first, all the old timers are opposed to Mitch. But then as time goes on, little by little, there’s a different sense--maybe it wouldn’t be so bad to have a new mayor.

And thus the drama of the fourth book, high drama indeed. but as always, life is ordinary, laced with the little things both good and frustrating, and always the real issues--life and death--are present. And questions--and prayers--are not always answered.

This is a fine installment in the series, with all of Karon’s strengths: fine writing, great characters, and a strong and interesting presentation of Christian living.

Highly recommended.

>194 Joycepa:

Thanks, Joyce, for your suggestions for Gettysburg reading. I'll probably go the easier route with Coddington and Gottfried, at least to start with.

I can't say that I have a lot of interest in military history, but I do want to learn more about the Civil War. I'm an amateur genealogist and it is impossible to ignore the impact of the war on families -- one ancestor of mine lost five brothers and several brothers-in-law to the war.

With the susquicentennial at hand, I decided it was time to make more of an effort to move beyond my basic knowledge. All suggestions are welcome!

Dejah: There are two books I would recommend for the history of that era. One is The Impending Crisis by David Potter. It's a history of the era from 1848 to 1861 and is the best source I know of for the background to the war.

I think there would be general agreement that there is no finer one volume history of the US Civil War than James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom. You get everything in one volume--a good summary of the military history plus the politics and movements of the era.

My favorite, of course, is Shellby Foote's 3 volume history The Civil War: A Narrative. Foote was a novelist and his history reads like a 3000 page novel. There is no better history, bar none. It's far more military history but the maps are excellent and it is extremely easy to read and follow. Plus you get Foote's commentary, which is informed and at times quite acerbic.

Another very fine book about the political situation and leadership of the Union during the war is Team of Rivals by Doris Goodwin. It's a superb book.

With a family history such as yours, yes, I can imagine that you would have some interest in that era! Nearly 650,000 soldiers on both sides died in that war, so yes, any family that was involved suffered losses.

Why am I not getting commissions from these people? Heaven knows I recommend these books often enough!! :-)

You need something like the Amazon program where, if someone clicks through from your links, you get a little bit of money. You'd be rich!

Ah, such a dream!

#206 Very good selection Joyce. I have read all of the books you listed and they are all excellent. I have the Shelby Foote books on audio and right now I am listening to the battle of Chancellorsville again.

Oh wow, Bill--on audio! Who's the narrator?

Grover Gardner, I think he's pretty good. All three volumes total 132.5 hours. If you subscribe to Audible they are only one credit for each volume.

132.5 hours. I wonder how long it took me to read them. What are you doing for maps? The maps in Foote's volumes are simple but adequate, and overall, they are the best of any book on the Civil War outside of the atlases. I scanned and printed out a bunch when I was reading other books, just to have a better idea of what was going on.

#200: Thanks for the reminder about that one, Joyce. I have it in the BlackHole already, but my local library still does not have it. I am going to have to go further afield.

It's well worth the effort to track it down, Stasia.

#214: I have a copy on the way to me now from PBS.

#212 I use Foote's maps and I also like the maps in The Oxford Atlas of the Civil War and The Civil War Dictionary. I just ordered the Maps of Chickamauga on a buy one get one free sale. What a deal!

I'm just sliding my way through here, Joyce, enjoying your thread slowly; I don't want to race through it and miss something interesting or funny.

Seeing all this talk about Foote's books reminds me that I may have to go back for a re-read, and also take another look at acPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom during this year of remembrance.

Oh--I loved the Mitford books--I mean the ones with Father Tim, although I'm also fascinated, in a completely different way, with the real-life British Mitford family.

All right, Bill--and where, may I ask, did you get such a deal?? Again, I ask, where? And how come I missed it?

If you find anything funny, Gail, let me know!! Usually it's Stasia, but she hasn't been posting much here lately. Throwing me over for other, more lively threads without doubt.

The History Book Club. I have made some good purchases there.

Thumbs up for your review of Gates of November. I know enough about the history of that era to wonder as you do if I would have that kind of courage. That book is going on my must read list.

I will look into the History Book Club from now on. If I could get a deal like that, it would more than make up for shipping costs.

The Gates of November is a wonderful read. Stasia beat me to Wanderings--she got the book yesterday.

The Case of the Missing Servant
Tarquin Hall

Vish Puri, a Punjabi living in New Dehli, is the owner of Most Private Investigations.He’s middle-aged, portly, and quite self-satisfied with himself and his situation. His business is thriving. He has two cases of particular interest. One is a matrimonial investigation, very common in India where often matches are made through newspaper and other advertising venues, and the families want to ensure proper caste and social status matches. In this instance, Vish’s client is a general, a hero of the Kashmiri war. The general’s concern is his granddaughter, whose fiancé he suspects of hiding something. Used to instant obedience and immediate results, the general is not the easiest client in the world. To make matters even more interesting, someone is trying to kill Vish, taking potshots at him while he’s tending his precious chili peppers on the roof of his house.

English, Hall has spent a great deal of time in other countries, India being one of them. His writing style is a wonderful attempt to recreate the rhythm and word usage of Anglo-Indian speech. The plots are not much and the resolutions leave a good deal to be desired, based too much on “intuition”--Vish’s or his mother’s--with too much exposition in place of evidence. But the characters are quirky, the writing is good, and Hall presents a good look at modern-day Indian life. As with just about every single contemporary Indian author, Hall writes about the endemic corruption in the Indian system; this book concentrates on the police and judicial system. Hall gives a good look at the Indian way of life from the point of view of a knowledgeable outsider. And knowledgeable he is, right down to the Sikh jokes common in northern India.

Despite rather cavalier plot development, The Case of the Missing Servant is still a fun read.

>222 Joycepa: I've got that one in my TBR stash. I thought it sounded like a fun book, so I'm glad to hear you confirm it! I'll have to think about moving it up in my queue.

#218: Throwing me over for other, more lively threads without doubt.

As if! Headache problems have been plaguing me unfortunately.

#222: Already read that one, so I can dodge that particular BB. I know you were aiming at me :)

#222 - I really enjoyed that one, but will warn you that the second one in the series, while still fun, was rather convoluted in the plot, and I didn't enjoy it nearly as much. Vish Puri has a lot of potential, and I hope a good editor can help this author tighten up his plotting. The rest of the characters are such fun, I'd hate to lose them.

#224: Ah. And here I thought that your FB comment was aimed at ME, when you complained about a headache! :-) Sorry to hear it, Stasia. but am relieved to know that I have not been abandoned.

#225: I, too, enjoyed the first book, Tutu, but have not decided to go on in the series. It felt to me like a one-off--the things that were good about it were not enough, in my opinion, to get me to read further.

#226: Nope, the comment was not directed at you :)

A New Song
Jan Karon

Fifth in the Father Tim Kavanaugh of Mitford, NC series.

Retirement is not all it was supposed to be for Father Tim. Even though he’s “supplied” churches here and there, he’s restless and dissatisfied. So that when the opportunity comes to spend at least a year as an interim priest for a small parish on Whitecap Island in Pimlico Sound, he grasps at the opportunity eagerly. So what if he and cynthia are not particularly fond of sea and sand?

Follows then a year of challenges, not the least of which involves being able to let go of his old parish. A hurricane provides its own terror. There is the mystery of their next-door neighbor and his strange behavior. But also there is satisfaction and joy in new and old friends and the serenity of their surroundings.

As usual, the book enchants because of the ordinariness of the lives of its characters. They are real people, interesting people. What is even better is that Father Tim is no plaster saint but subject to the same worries and failings as the rest of his neighbors and friends. Karon continues to present their strong faith in a most believable and even inspiring way.

Anther strong installment in the series. Highly recommended.

Now that I've FINALLY finished the Mitford series and have to give up that addiction, I'm getting more serious about the other books I'm reading (as well as indulging an old love--the Nero Wolfe series). Right now, I'm working my way through A History of the Siege of Lisbon which is a dazzling exposition of language by José Saramago. Another book that so far is excellent is jennifer Egen's A Visit From the Goon Squad. If this book holds up, I'll certainly read more of her books.

I have seen a lot of good reviews of Egan's book. I will be interested in seeing what you think of it when you are done, Joyce.

I haven't been reading much lately since I have been embarked on a campaign of interior house painting. Two rooms in two days! Kitchen on Monday, a long, along wall of our combined dining room/living room yesterday. Painting the refrigerator today (appliances rust like you can't believe here), "short" wall of dining room tomorrow. All this in preparation for kitchen cabinets, which are coming sometimes towards the end of the month. We've never had them in this house, but have finally found a cabinet maker who does both good work and is honest, not a common combination here. Meantime, we've had an iron balustrade put in on the porch, which is wonderful--we have breakfasts out there now and no need to tie up Fred--and iron security grills put on both bathroom windows, finishing up that aspect of the house security. It's been really busy and I haven't had much time.

BUT--I've been reading Ratification by Pauline Maier, and last night I started watching (for the 3rd time) the series John Adams in conjunction with reading the book. Many of the men prominent in the Continental Congress also played a significant role in the ratification of the Constitution. For example, Elbridge Gerry. I never really noticed him the first times I watched the series, but last night keenly enjoyed following his participation (in the movie, anyway) in the debates over independence. Personally, I think the casting and acting in that series is superb. Paul Giamotti is perfect as Adams, and bouquets of flowers of all kinds should be thrown at the feet of Laura Linney as Abigail.

I wonder if Netflix has the John Adams miniseries. Off to check. . .

America was very fortunate to have a group of talented men who worked on behalf of the common good in positions of leadership during that time. At the same time the prejudices that kept women such as Abigail Adams from participation in the public debate deprived the country of valuable additions to that group.

"bouquets of flowers of all kinds should be thrown at the feet of Laura Linney" I have always loved her...in everything. Sadly, I have not yet seen the John Adams series. *off with Stasia to check the Netflix"

Bill, one of the more interesting scenes in the movie is when Washington, before the battle of New York, is visiting Abigail (John is in Philadelphia) and is laying his worries out for her to see. He asks her if there's anything he can do for her or her family. She asks him to take her letters to John; Washington immediately agrees and says how everyone knows how much John values her advice and he looks forward to when they all can have the benefit of her device. It's a great scene!

Linda, I think she's incredible. One scene in particular, in the second movie, I believe, sticks out in my mind. they're at a dinner party and Jonathon, the Crown's Attorney General for Massachusetts, is trying to persuade John to take up Advocate General or something like that. Abigail doesn't say a word nor does she even change expression. But Laura Linney acts that whole scene with her eyes, and it is amazing to watch. It's a superb job of acting, none better.

This is a series not to be missed, believe me. I loved the book and the movies illuminate the book, which is what cinema is at its best.

(Back from cleaning up brushes)

One thing I will say, Bill, in which I agree with your comments both today and earlier: reading Ratification and watching the movie, one can only marvel at the true patriots--those who put the common good above sectional interests. Of course, NY doesn't come out looking good in the movies; it has the dubious distinction of being the only state that did not vote for independence. And Adams makes me laugh in the movies when he's so exasperated with those members of Congress that talk simply to hear themselves talk and prove that they are "great men". Nothing has changed except that I doubt today's dullards have any thought of looking like great men since they have no clue as to what great men (or women) are like.

But Ratification shows so many people at their best. I had no idea what if anything was the dissent against ratification of the Constitution, and it is clear that many who dissented were doing so out of a genuine concern for the country, NOT out of self-interest. I'm learning about Federalist and Anti-Federalist, and it is enlightening.

It's also depressing. I remember saying to Mary the first time I saw John Adams "Where did we go wrong?" Reading Ratification makes me wonder a) how utterly cynical so many politicians are to have the claptrap that they speak pass as love of country and b) just when did the average IQ of the US plummet about 100 points that so many people believe it? Where are the equivalents today of Adams, Dickinson (yes, that dear principled man after whom my college was named), Lee, Gerry, Paine, Rodney of Delaware, Rush, Hancock, Randolph and that slimeball Jefferson. Lots of slimeballs around but 100 of them couldn't make up 1/100th of Jefferson. Too many Duanes and Rutledges.

Given the reading that I've done on the US Civil War, it is a kick in the pants to watch Rutledge of South Carolina strut and posture, first denouncing independence, swearing that South Carolina will NEVER,EVER vote for independence, and then come sleazing around to Adams to see how he can vote yes. South Carolina, who made such a noise about following in the footsteps of the Founding Fathers and fighting for independence just like they did, positively lusting for separation and civil war. You have to snicker when you know what happened in 1776. Some things don't change.

The series has been added to the TOP of my Netflix queue. Thanks for mentioning it, Joyce.

No problem.

Linda and I are going to be fighting for the DVDs, I can see. Hopefully Netflix has multiple copies! :)

Hope so, Stasia! Yesterday I watched Parts 3 &4. The latter has one of my all-time favorite character actors, Tom Hollander, as King George III--and a marvelous acting job it was! Tom Wilkinson plays Benjamin Franklin and I will forever think of Franklin in exactly the way Wilkinson portrayed him.

There are several really excellent features that come with the set. One is an interview with David McCullough and a "walk" with him and his family that is hilarious. Another is an interactive feature that you can use with the film that gives historical information as the film progresses. It's well worth the time.

Personally, if I were to own any DVDs, this set would be high on my list. Of course, I already do, but you get my meaning! :-) Too early in the morning for clear, concise, intelligent writing. Then again, I'm not too sure any time of the day is my time of the day for that kind of effort.

More painting today, finishing up the dining room. Unfortunately, it has to be done on a 12 ft extension ladder. Oh well.

I have never seen the series. After reading what everyone has to say about it I will have to find it.

Particularly after reading Ratification, Bill, you will really, really appreciate it. The casting and acting are superb. I'm going to watch parts 4 & 5 tonight.

Many of the writings and speeches referred to in Ratification are in a two volume set The Debate on the Constitution, a total of 2400 pages.

I don't think I'm quite up to 2400 pages of debate, Bill. :-)

Anyone here yet read The Help? I stayed up too late last night to finish the book--utterly terrific. And, have I read somewhere that that's going to be made into a film?

Bill, I know you're a lawyer. Stockett, in an afterward makes the statement (among others) that the basis of the US legal system was developed at the University of Mississippi, which took me aback. I'm pretty sure that Ole Miss didn't exist in 1787. Do you have an idea why she makes that claim?

The Help has been made into a film, Joyce. It will be out in August, I think.

I just looked it u in the IMDB (Internet Movie DAta Base). Except for Cicely Williams (and I had no idea she was still alive), it's a cast of unknowns--I never heard of any of them. What I find fascinating is how the cast is listed. Yes, Skeeter is one of the protagonists; she's listed first. Second is Hilly. But where are Aibileen and Minnie? Way, way down on the list. And none of these people is a star, so that one should "rank" higher than the other.

Stockett is listed as one of the screen writers. Definitely a movie I want to see.

I still need to read the book. Then I will think about seeing the film :)

It's excellent, Stasia. Wile I was a young woman during that time, really just about all of what I know of that era in Jackson, MS, comes from Taylor Branch's books. Jackson was one of the really bad sites. Stockett is aware of this, of course, but what she does is present the happenings of the times from the point of view of black maids to rich white families. They were affected--but in reality, what happened during the Civil Rights movement in 1964 was pretty much an intensification of daily life, according to the viewpoint she's taken.

I keep meaning to get to the book just have not managed to do so yet. I need a clone.

Now there's a scary thought, Stasia--two or more of you!! :-))

Yeah, I know it is a scary thought. But a good one. Either a clone or I could grow another head. Just something to help with all the books I still need to read!

I have managed to impose some self-discipline on book buying, at least. I think it's been at least 2 days, which might be some sort of record since I've had my Kindle. But I have nearly 75 books--probably more--that I haven't read, either on Kindle or hard copy, and it's ridiculous. I've been fairly successful at insisting to myself that I have to finish at least 2 books before I buy another.

Well, since I have over 1000 unread books at my house, your 75 looks penny ante :)

Time for a new thread:

here

# 245
Stockett is not even close. In 1787 all of that part of the country was claimed by Georgia. Mississippi was not established as a territory until 1798 so I am sure there was no University of Mississippi in 1787.
There is no U. S. legal system. That phrase only describes some general principles and procedures that are the outline of the legal system in this country. There is a federal system based upon laws passed by Congress, federal agency regulations, treaties and Constitutional law that applies in all of the states. Each of the states has their own system of law which is why lawyers are admitted to the bar on a state by state basis. The states have their own statutes and their own system of common law based upon decisions of the appellate courts for each state. There is no system of federal common law. Much of the common law in the older states has some relationship to English common law. I have no idea why the author would have made such a statement.

I was only being facetious about The Debate on the Constitution volumes. I have had them for years and have only read volume one. There are over three hundred copies of each volume owned by members of LT and no reviews of either volume.

Thank God you 'fessed up, Bill! I wasn't sure I was qualified to ever make a comment on your reviews again!! :-)

My impression was indeed that most of our legal tradition was based on English common law. But I have no real knowledge of the legal system. Good information, this.

Wonder why she made so bizarre a statement?

You are always welcome to comment on my reviews Joyce. I guess you couldn't see the smile on my face when I wrote my comment (#244).

How did that statement ever get past a fact checker?

"fact checker" Are there still such creatures? I have my doubts.

From Ole Miss's website: The University was chartered in 1844, and admitted its first students four years later. It established the fourth state-supported law school in the nation in 1854.

I've replied to this on my new thread. Too lazy to repeat it here.

Oh, geez....next time make the link smaller, Joyce. I can almost SEE that one!!

I'll try, I'll try!