The Grotesque in Americana: Politics, Culture, Art, & Books

Yes, Anna, I do enjoy the grotesque in literature. So immersed in it have I become of late, that when Rick used "grotesque" to describe American society in another thread, my mind went immediately to ... 'Lester Ballard. He's calling us a collective lot of Lester Ballards! Ick.'

Sometimes good thread ideas come out of some good conflicts and debate.

Have at it, if you will.

William Faulkner. Haaaaaaaa! I said the glaringly obvious first! Nanner nanner!

I see the grotesque in the richest nation in the world allowing its citizens to exist in direst misery (such as I lived among--or next to, if you prefer--for five years in Louisiana), without healthcare or decent education, while it spends billions on the military. I see the grotesque in the lack of gun control and prisons filled to the max. I see it in the paradox of 60-year long continuous military aggression (yes, that's how long American bombs have kept falling somewhere in the world, with nary a break), ubiquitous nationalism, bullying jingoism, racism and xenophobia--wrapped in a sincere belief that it's the greatest democracy and/or country in the world. I don't get the idolatry of the Constitution. Yeah, it sounds nice--that inalienable pursuit of liberty, happiness (and I forget the third nice thing)--but it was limited to white men.

I mean, I've no problem with giving the Caesar his due. I guess I just don't agree on its amount.

I second everything Lola said.

#3

Well, we can have a joint funeral. ;)

And I third it.

I mean, look at the impulse behind the creation of the American Republic, and then think about where it is now.

What the fuck happened?

And I don't mean to disrespect any Americans here, but from outside looking in, it's pretty grotesque:

http://www.sarahpac.com/posts/setting_the_record_straight

And let's not forget "The Donald"

http://www.theonion.com/articles/trump-unable-to-produce-certificate-proving-hes...

but anyway, as this is meant to be celebration of the grotesque in american culture, it's hard to find something more Authentically USA and grotesque than the work of David Lynch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-DjluKLY14

Oh, I don't know. Diane Arbus might deserve a nod.

http://diane-arbus-photography.com/

This thread, as I see it, tomcat, is meant to be whatever anybody wishes it to be, laudatory or critical. What exactly is there to laud in American politics for instance, anyway?

But yeah, I do love me some Blue Velvet (DVD). Have you read DFWs piece on David Lynch? "David Lynch Keeps His Head" in A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again -- reportage from the set of Lynch's 1996 Lost Highway.

2> and I forget the third nice thing

"and justice for all?" Hahahahahaha. I'd say we've improved over the last half-century in that regard, but recognize that when you began in a deep pit it's easier to see improvement as the light at the end of the tunnel widens.

Besides what you summed up, Lola, let's add the pathetic public school system to our compendium of the grotesque in U.S.A. The teachers aren't the problem, usually, in my experience (I've had some awesome, life-changing teachers as have my kids) but the fucking administrators? OMG. Is not the U.S.A., excluding its universities, the "educational" laughingstock of the globe, no? And don't get me started on special education in these Disunited States. Because I will never shut up, having had to spend almost six figures on fucking lawyers (no offense, illustrious lawyers of the salon) over the last decade to secure a F.A.P.E. (Free and Appropriate Public Education) that I.D.E.A. legislation is supposed to automatically enforce. (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act), hahahahahaha.

I think it's important, however, to make a distinction between the mindless masses of (un)American citizenry (and its fucking government) and with the tens of millions of Americans who fight the fucking good fight and are as appalled and outraged by the amoral atrocities and indifference of our people and its government and it's Brazil (DVD)-like fucked up bureaucracies squashing the wills and lives of those without money and, hence, a lobbying voice.

Lola has summed it all up well. I can only add this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V-2NKUlzns

I think it's important, however, to make a distinction between the mindless masses of (un)American citizenry (and its fucking government) and with the tens of millions of Americans who fight the fucking good fight and are as appalled and outraged by the amoral atrocities and indifference of our people and its government and it's Brazil (DVD)-like fucked up bureaucracies squashing the wills and lives of those without money and, hence, a lobbying voice.

well said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE

Canadians, new or life long have always been obsessed with the USA. God love 'em.

Martini, do you know Patrick DeWitt? He's passing through on a book tour.

11> Jay Leno has been doing his Jaywalking skit for a couple decades now. It's good lowbrow entertainment (which I like) like Beavis and Butthead (which I've never liked).

And yeah, of course it's pathetic and embarrassing as an American to see that there's other Americans who are so unconscionably, unforgivably stupid. But it's also edited to prove a predetermined, axe-to-grind point, like that YouTube clip: The predetermined agenda of such clips being to show how stupid the American people are. I get it, we're stupid. Ha. We're ignorant, uneducated, irrelevant. Hey, all you Americans here in Le Salon, guess what? you are all dummies who can't spell!

Seriously, all that these clips prove is that a lot of American people are stupid. I agree. But the clips don't prove that we're all stupid, or even that a majority of us are stupid apathetic dumb asses who don't give a shit about the world.

Don't quote me, but I'm pretty sure stupidity, ignorance, and indifference, are human problems that every nation in the world, red white and blue or not, has to deal with.

I believe Lola was a bit too restrained. If you leave out 'continuous' the violence abroad can be spotted far earlier, starting with, if you need to start big, Mexico.
More or less continuous, you can start with Cuba and the manifolds of manifest destiny (my next book title is The Manifold Destiny of Eddie Vegas, preemie promo), the uncountable encursions into lands south.
The improvements I don't see as they are overshadowed by the menacing worsers. Less reporting of more atrocity.
Big auto and steel preventing cheap transportation has had lasting effects that do not improve or allow the improvement of anyone's lot.
I have to be all over the place or I can't get anything in. But if tens of millions are essentially feckless (1% now owning what percent?)...
the gutting of Michigan--political murders south of the border aided/abetted by US and allies like South Korea. Jobs, we need jobs...

Braudel described it best, though he meant Venezia: An agile and dangerous capitalism. It is now at its agilemost yet and most dangerous.

>13 absurdeist:
oh sure, stupidity is everywhere. Christ, you should come and live here for a while, The Republic of Stupidity.

But, what comes across on the video is not stupidity so much as ignorance (and your point that it's been cut and manipulated to increase this message is of course right).

The difference between stupidity and ignorance is interesting to think about. The former has no blame, it's congenital, biological. The latter is the result of educational neglect, intellectual laziness; it's remediable, and to be blamed.

What I find grotesque in this context is that 1) the questions asked are basic nollidge that every person in the developed world with a state provided education should know the answer to, without hesitation. They're not asking about quantum physics, FFS 2) THe fact that those asked are ignorant of this basic knowledge shows that something has gone wrong with the education system/society. 3) The people answering the question showed no awareness of the depth or shamefulness of their ignorance.

All of this coming from the richest, (supposedly) most advanced nation in the world, is grotesque in my book. It's the ignorance not the stupidity that is grotesque.

(I would be willing to bet a years's worth of books that similar questions put to a similar demographic of Europeans and developed Asian countries would elicit a higher percentage of right answers.)

I like Sherwood Anderson's take on grotesques, myself.

But picking up where the 'Freeque left off: I have a pet theory that U.S. culture shows the general tendencies of the species, given the relative largesse of modern U.S. society. Deplorable? Often it is. Selfish, superficial, hedonistic? Yes, yes it is. Unique to Homo sapiens americanus? I don't think so, the experiment that is U.S.A. simply reveals some ugly things about this creature, the human.

None of which is to say it's inevitable, or should be accepted. In fact, looking in this modern mirror the species may well be motivated to make some changes. It's a hope I hold out for my kids, in any case.

Out of 124 respondents in a recent English quiz in a Slovenian high school, 123 knew who the president of the U.S is and two could name all the countries that now comprise the former Yugoslavia.

>12 slickdpdx: ah slick, it's just that smugness that makes us go all gooey inside.

No, I don't know Patrick DeWitt. Who's he?

Thank you for this thread, EF! I am so happy it is here.

Lola, it's "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." :) Yes I got a minor concentration in American Government, and also (more to the point) I helped my ex study for his naturalization exam.\

I am a firm believer in the theory of 27%, which was, I believe, first expressed here:
http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2005/10/lunch-discussions-145-crazification.html

by John Rogers, a screenwriter and more importantly the guy who writes the blog "Kung Fu Monkey". :)

I also think this theory is about people all over. I used to live in the Middle East and there were a lot of people who espoused nutty ideas. I don't think America is alone in this regard. However. I think American cultural supremacy at this point, more through movies and TV than through books, has amplified our crazy.

I also think this 27% is not just nutty. I think there is definitely like #15 points out, wilful ignorance, a certain je ne sais quoi about the American (27%er, not everyone's) ability to say "It's my God-given right to not know a damn thing!" I am reminded of a Calvin and Hobbes strip where Calvin says he refuses to go to school and they can't make him learn anything. Hobbes asks if this will really make him happier (or something like that) and the punch line is "I don't know, and I refuse to find out!"

Anna: I've been thinking about the grotesque works you and EF have referred to. I think the difference is, perhaps this is the corny American in me, love as opposed to scorn, hatred or revulsion.

Martin: No one likes a thumb in their eye! Patrick DeWitt is a writer in your province with a new book out and is touring it. Looks promising enough.

Yes! Love for the imperfect in us, this is for me the main message that shone through books like Infinite Jest. When I think of all those ridiculous and overblown characters I can't help being fond of them. Even the really awful ones.

Exactly, even Randy (is that the dog guy?) and poor Tony.

I was thinking of exactly them. Then I got to thinking about President Gentle, and I even have a soft spot for him, because of his goofy obsessive compulsive cleanliness thing, which reminds me of the famous Egyptian singer Muhammad Abdel Wahhab who, I have been told, would boil then freeze then boil then freeze his water several times before drinking it and had a variety of other cleanliness obsessions.

America freed us from the Nazi's.
That is why I like them forever. People do not seem to realize, the near disaster we escaped. And then they protected is against the communist. Travelling through east Europe you realize how to close they were and how nasty...

It is good to make intellectual and elitist comments on how America behaves, but sometimes we need a Nation with the balls to act.
Europe can sometimes get stuck in inaction as when they stood by and looked at the atrocities happening in Serbia and Yugoslavia...

This said, I think America is losing ground by not investing in ecology, social systems and education. They might jeopardize their leader position if they do not care more for weak.

Plenty of Grotesque elsewhere - Great Britain - The Royal Wedding - nuff said.

> as much despised as the US is as a political entity hereabouts, I have heard plenty to support Mac regarding the World Wars and cold war as well. I differ strongly about the cold war because of the way Stalin was appeased in the first place.

William Faulkner is a piker when it comes to the grotesques in Flannery O'Connor. (I don't know why, but she is coming up a lot with me lately.) Dickens has a flair for the grotesque as well. Most of his minor characters seem grotesque in some way or another.

When a person anywhere is allowed to speak their mind about any and everything, whether they are competent to speak on the subject or not, whether what they say is true or not, and whether they scream it at the top of their lungs, here in America we are allowed to make fools of ourselves. With just a few exceptions, the classic being to yell fire in a crowded theater for the fun of it, Americans get to say pretty much anything that comes into their heads to say. I can slander Barack Obama or Donald Trump from now until the cows come home. Can you do that in England, Murr? Rick?

I have no constraints on what I think, write, and say. That has it's advantages and its drawbacks, but I get to decide, not some government. The United States has attracted, and indeed continues to attract the best and the brightest from all over the world, although for some reason totally unfathomable by me, the Republicans want to turn off this talent spigot. Actually it's not unfathomable. Just part of the Republican plan to turn America into an illiterate oligarchy in which only the oligarch's children will get a decent education, thereby continuing to control the rest of US, but it's too complicated to discuss here.

At any rate, I'm not ready to move yet. I have hope for my country, and indeed over the last few days, as a result of all the Republican town hall meetings blowing up in their faces over the Ryan budget plan, I have more than hope. I believe the Republicans have finally overreached to the point they can no longer be ignored by the electorate and the pendulum will gather momentum as it swings back to the left. America has always had to put this particular genie back in the bottle. We did it in the eighteen-nineties, we did it again in the nineteen thirties, and we'll do it again now.

Were I in Europe, I would be upset. The Brit's plan to strangle their economy seems to be on track. I learned yesterday that Belgium has no government, hasn't had for a year. Germany is demanding the sacrifice of Ireland and Greece on the altar of protecting their own stupid banking decisions. Neo-nazi parties are gaining more strength each day that goes by, Europe has it's own crazy to pay attention to.

I won't mention how much saner the Balkans handled their internal problems than the US handles theirs. At least we have been able to stave off the impulse to genocide, Rick, Lola, how's that going over there?

Everybody in the "free" world has problems. People care about ours because ours matter to them. Theirs to us? Eh, not so much. I suspect a very large part of people's envious dislike of the United States of America is engendered by that exact thing. We matter, and they don't.

I was thinking, Gene, about what I liked in the US, and still like, though I get more from here at LT than anywhere else (friends are scattered), which is the subcultures that arise as reactions to the 'broader culture'.

Genocide...seems a matter of where the power lies, and the perceived need. Don't forget your native folk. And don't forget whatever you call the destruction of Baghdad, and the bombings from north of Vegas of Pakistan and Afghanistan. The first two Armenian genocides in Turkey in the 1890s were basically reactions to foreign (western European) control of the country through extraterritorial and such rights. The Armenians were promoted, as Christians, to a position that mirrors that of the European Jew--lots of bankers, sure, but a majority of plain folk who began to look like bankers when the times got rough.

More to the point in the Balkans, the situation was foretold by the Spanish foreign minister of the time, who told the Germans to calm down, any declarations of independence before the situation of the Serbs in Knin, Croatia, was settled would lead to what it lead to. It was commercial irresponsibility, and the three ringleaders in the Balkans, I believe, were our very own Kučan, who got to go free without war, and Tuđman and Milošević, each thinking they were smarter than the other. But the match was struck by the EU, or, Germany, to condense.

But I don't ever mean to suggest anything like that it is wrong for anyone to like being in the US or that they support something they shouldn't, or that my place here is better for anyone but me. Unless of course US foreign policy is in the mix. There's nothing strange about decent people living in indecent times under indecent powers.

>20 slickdpdx: yeah, I hear ya:) there's always that tension between legitimate criticism of a foreign government or political culture and illegitimate, or at least ugly, criticism of a whole society, and it's easy to take the US's status as 700-pound gorilla as license to step over that line. Allow me to suggest, though, that it's balanced by what seems like a particularly American tendency to attribute criticism from outside not to e.g. legitimate disagreement with the way you do things, or even ignorance and malinformation on our part, but to jealous obsession--and that part has never been true. Canadians have a lot of opinions on the US because we are completely inundated with American shit. That's not your fault, but it makes resentment natural, and I get tired of the imputation that any disagreement with US policy or suggestion that the US has been a (the) main (major) driving force of neoliberalism and a world in which global capitalism has us all that much more ground into the dust is met with this go-to narrative: "you're just jealous because you're a bunch of uncharismatic losers who can't get over feeling inadequate when they see us kickin' ass."

Or, to wit:

I suspect a very large part of people's envious dislike of the United States of America is engendered by that exact thing. We matter, and they don't.

Oh, Gene. I matter just fine, thank you.

Yeah, I disagree that others are just jealous. Some definitely are, in some ways, (France I am looking at you) but it becomes just another American exceptionalism argument like "they hate us for our freedom." No, that's not it.

I don't think France is jealous of America, but it (Sarkozy) does want some of its money. It wants the money without the Americans. It does not want American lifestyle or culture.

I was in Auch this morning and one of the first things I noticed was a new MacDonalds franchise opening up and my immediate thought was- Oh no not another one. American culture can seem to be invasive, it has certainly invaded England. Perhaps I see the worst of America with its news programmes its reality TV shows, its violent movies, its razzmatazz politics, its winner takes all attitude and incredible belief that it knows whats best for everybody else. It's not all like that is it?

Just wait until you get a Carls Jr. You will be thanking us.

They are called Hardees overseas, there were many in Egypt. I believe France probably has most of our chains represented there.

bas, I am smiling because I remember being a student in France in 1988 and so many French students being mad about the US lifestyle/culture. I remember that I got pretty defensive even though I would be considered by many Americans to be really super left wing and un-american. I remember Rambo First Blood Part II came out while I was there and people lined up around the block to see it. They didn't have to. If American crappy movies are really popular in your country that isn't Hollywood's fault.

I do understand US movies and TV shows (I don't watch TV at all and I agree that reality shows nad the like are totally depraved and disgusting) have more funding and market more aggressively but unlike other countries our government does not do a lot of subsidizing of our entertainment sector so this is not really a US policy thing but just a very successful capitalist sector doing what it does.

>27 geneg:
Actually it's not unfathomable. Just part of the Republican plan to turn America into an illiterate oligarchy in which only the oligarch's children will get a decent education, thereby continuing to control the rest of US.


too late. It already happened Geneg. US is already an illiterate oligarchy.

Everybody in the "free" world has problems. People care about ours because ours matter to them. Theirs to us? Eh, not so much. I suspect a very large part of people's envious dislike of the United States of America is engendered by that exact thing. We matter, and they don't.

A classic example of American Grotesque. Thanks Geneg.

When I was a kid between the 7th and 8th grade, Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian broadcaster had this to say about The Americans. For all our faults, who is usually there to help pick up the pieces? Jes' sayin'.

edited to fix link

>27 geneg:
Can you do that in England, Murr? Rick?

Sorry, I forgot to answer your question. In UK the punishment for insulting the queen is execution: there is a gallows in Tyburn where public executions are carried out -but you still have those in America, right? and the punishment for stealing an apple is transportation to Australia. In France, for spitting on a Marquis the punishment is life in the galleys. And of course they have the guillotine at Place de la Concorde - but you still use that in America, right?

Jayzis, even my Taiwanese 8th graders know that stuff.

"you're just jealous because you're a bunch of uncharismatic losers who can't get over feeling inadequate when they see us kickin' ass."


So, you're saying that Canadians view Americans as the Charlie Sheens of the global community?

>37 Jesse_wiedinmyer: whoa, you could be on to something. Allow me to consult with my countrymen.

Winning, anyone? Rhymes with winning. Anyone? Yeah, that would be us. Sorry, man, didn’t make the rules. Oops!

Jesse, Martini, what's your opinion regarding Canada, well known for its many snow flakes, being the United States' dandruff?

If ya'll want you some gooooooooood Americana grotesquerie, recommend you read you some Suttree.

America is just doing what the United Kingdom, France, the Roman Empire, etc. did before it became the world superpower: get involved in everyone's business. America is hardly unique that way. But, courtesy of TV Tropes, it does have several factors going into why it receives so much focus:

* The US has a population of over 300 million, the third largest in the world.
* Legal access to firearms.
* It's a rich country.
* It has far more media covering it than anywhere else.
* Strong national belief in personal freedom, which has the unfortunate side-effect of encouraging idiots to do whatever they want.
* People in America are a willing audience for the weird and slightly unusual. As one of our comedians, George Carlin, put it, "If you're born on this planet you get a free ticket to the freak show; if you're born in America you get a front row seat."
* With so much access to different forms of media in the form of TV, radio, newspapers, magazines, satellite radio, blogs, webcasts, Twitter, podcasts, etc., those outlets trying to keep an audience must increasingly differentiate from one another.
* Every other country is boring, so no one cares about them.

The Cold War really messed with American mentality - and subsequently we're still paying for it with right-wingers doing everything humanly possible to force America back into the 1950s image that never was.

My tail wags furiously, excitedly, happily, over these dialogues.

As for clear windows into the grotesque, let's not forget my primary standards for my Country's current culture and political news, "South Park" and "The Daily Show."

I count myself a little left of center, but I like my country. Been blessed to visit a few other countries in Europe, Asia, Africa, Middle East and found much to like and love about all of them. At the end, it was good to be back in the U.S.A.

We have a lot of crazy people of all stripes. The good news is that they are free to be crazy and I am free to say they are crazy.

We have horrid discrimination at many levels, not just racial discrimination, but where else does one find the diversity we have here? There really aren't that many of us who descend from the "pilgrims". Most of us descend, relatively recently, from those who came from everywhere. My great-grandparents could barely write their names. My grandparents barely graduated from eighth grade. My father and mother graduated from high school. I have a graduate degree. Yes, that can happen in other countries. Maybe not so easily?

>43 LisaCurcio: http://www.religiondispatches.org/blog/2377/america_ranks_toward_the_bottom_of_s...

But maybe I'll make that my last comment on the matter, because I'm starting to feel like the Canadian asshole at a USA party and I don't want to get dunked in the pool.

Canadian asshole my big fat ass!

Of the 44 posts so far, 19 have been critical of America. Nearly half. And one of those posts was mine. I'll refrain from dunking you in the pool with my puerile dandruff if that'll help.

In some ways the US is like a dysfunctional family. We fight amongst ourselves like cats and dogs, but when outsiders get involved they are likely to get hurt. I'll bet every one of you feel the same way about your country. Yes, there is a lot that's wrong with America, but there is a lot that's right about it, too, at least for now. We take the things we like for granted, it's only the things we dislike that we argue over.

On my earlier comment, I no illusions about the position America is likely to fill in the coming world. We will be the next England, an ex-empire finding a comfy little niche in the world. It won't be easy for many people, but easier I think, for many. In fifty years we will just be another country lining itself on some one else's world axis. Such is the nature of the world. I am not an American exceptionalist, I just see what the present situation is (as told to US Americans) and know that the US is at the outset of it's decline. The thing that frightens the bejeezus out of me is that one day we may be the largest third world nation on earth with nukes (yes, that's where the Republicans will take US, given half the chance). Imagine someone like the donald, pissed off at how other nations just dis the US and fail to show US the respect we plainly deserve, with his hand on the button. We need to be let down slowly, not deflated like a balloon. I'm not referring here to other nations treating US like a piece of crystal, ready to break at any moment, no, I'm talking about our government has to be able to shift into the world background, realizing it's the nature of things, not fighting it tooth and nail, throwing nukes at everyone who pisses us off. I fear that the US in decline could be a very dangerous country. We already have a powerful and influential war-mongering party now, the Neo-Conservatives. who want us to go to war unprovoked with North Korea and Iran. It's funny, but it seems this country only starts fights with the little guys.

The ignorance of the average US citizen is scary indeed. And the nationalism repulsive. BUT... "Average" is a statistics term. The extreme measurements of that statistical data, the "outliers" of American Society, are the most interesting bunch amongst those of other cultures. The subcultures, that's what makes US interesting.

The Thurston Moores, the Charles Bukowskis, the Eric Claytons, the Richard Stallmans, the Ben Chasnys...