Horrified by rape titilation scenes in silly epic film I saw recently...
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1MaryLou0
I'm always being horrified by something lately in the depiction of women in films and literature...
Well, I got round to seeing that silly film 'Troy' a few weeks ago, hoping to have a good laugh as I'd heard it was so bad.
I was disturbed by the treatment of women in it, what with the nasty way that their Achilles shoves away one of the women he's in a threesome with (of course!)at the beginning (I suppose they were meant to be former war prizes).Then the creepy scene where he is stripping off to wash and strutting about supposedly naked with the audience obviously being titilated by the prospect of his raping the captive Briseis, who is tied to a pole (Fredian, or what?!)
Yes, I know men weren't too troubled about women and consentual sex in the Bronze Age, and the ancient heroes were all rapists to a man, but I thought this film was encouraging a modern audience to gloat over women being victims.
The film makers tried to make it seem as if the film was anti-rape by having him rescue her from Agamemnon's troops.
She goes on to develop a fine case of Stockholm Syndrome, which I found really creepy.
What really worried me was that on the internet, so many women thought their eventual relationship was 'romantic', wrote a lot of 'fanfiction' about it, etc, for all he is violent to her when she tries to stop him killing one of his lieutenants. You see he gives her some jewellery and comes running after her in h is leather mini skirt to Troy at the end, and that makes it all right, it seems.
I counted about twelve women on the web who objected to it and/or thought the relationship abusive. Many said, 'Oh, lucky thing...etc etc'.
Steam came from my ears and I wrote an article for the 'fword' on line feminist magazine (silly me, forgotten url bt You can get it with key words 'Troy Briseis Stockholm syndrome' if anyone cares to have a look) under my pen name LucindaE.
I am still dismayed that women are so indifferent to the portayal of potential rape as an erotic tableau, or couldn't see it, or something, or even thought the character 'feisty'. About as feisty as a Georgette Heyer heroine, that is, putting up token resistance before succumbing to the irresistable male.
Ironically,Brad Pitt came to fame in 'Thelma and Louise' about twenty years ago, which was a sympathetic portrayal of women violently resisting rape, though no doubt as a man he doesn't think much about these things and apparently asked to be filmed naked in the famous scene.
No doubt Wolfgang Petersen would claim his film is anti rape and feminist for he makes his character kill off Agamemnon in the end, though tamed by her former captor after a totally unconvincing knife threat to him.
Any thoughts on this?
Well, I got round to seeing that silly film 'Troy' a few weeks ago, hoping to have a good laugh as I'd heard it was so bad.
I was disturbed by the treatment of women in it, what with the nasty way that their Achilles shoves away one of the women he's in a threesome with (of course!)at the beginning (I suppose they were meant to be former war prizes).Then the creepy scene where he is stripping off to wash and strutting about supposedly naked with the audience obviously being titilated by the prospect of his raping the captive Briseis, who is tied to a pole (Fredian, or what?!)
Yes, I know men weren't too troubled about women and consentual sex in the Bronze Age, and the ancient heroes were all rapists to a man, but I thought this film was encouraging a modern audience to gloat over women being victims.
The film makers tried to make it seem as if the film was anti-rape by having him rescue her from Agamemnon's troops.
She goes on to develop a fine case of Stockholm Syndrome, which I found really creepy.
What really worried me was that on the internet, so many women thought their eventual relationship was 'romantic', wrote a lot of 'fanfiction' about it, etc, for all he is violent to her when she tries to stop him killing one of his lieutenants. You see he gives her some jewellery and comes running after her in h is leather mini skirt to Troy at the end, and that makes it all right, it seems.
I counted about twelve women on the web who objected to it and/or thought the relationship abusive. Many said, 'Oh, lucky thing...etc etc'.
Steam came from my ears and I wrote an article for the 'fword' on line feminist magazine (silly me, forgotten url bt You can get it with key words 'Troy Briseis Stockholm syndrome' if anyone cares to have a look) under my pen name LucindaE.
I am still dismayed that women are so indifferent to the portayal of potential rape as an erotic tableau, or couldn't see it, or something, or even thought the character 'feisty'. About as feisty as a Georgette Heyer heroine, that is, putting up token resistance before succumbing to the irresistable male.
Ironically,Brad Pitt came to fame in 'Thelma and Louise' about twenty years ago, which was a sympathetic portrayal of women violently resisting rape, though no doubt as a man he doesn't think much about these things and apparently asked to be filmed naked in the famous scene.
No doubt Wolfgang Petersen would claim his film is anti rape and feminist for he makes his character kill off Agamemnon in the end, though tamed by her former captor after a totally unconvincing knife threat to him.
Any thoughts on this?
2Citizenjoyce
I haven't seen Troy, but mythology didn't seem to have a problem with rape. Maybe that's why the film didn't either? As for the fanfiction part, well, some women think they wouldn't care how they got to be with the beautiful Brad Pitt, just as long as they got to be with him. Of course, fantasizing about it and actually wanting to be raped are two different things.
3MaryLou0
Thanks for posting, CitizenJoye, sorry I have taken so long to get back to y ou, problems with PC.
I take your point, ancient mythology is full of rapes,
but the point I was making was more complex, indicating a A subtle introduction of rape as acceptable for modern audiences...
You say that perhaps 'the film didn't have a problem with rape' because Bronze Age Greek men didn't.
But that was precisely the problem. It is rather like a film depicting racist abuse uncritically, say in early twentieth century Britain, because at the time that was accepted.
Were that done, there would be an outcry, and no black person would support it.
Surely we as women should take as strong a line of any backtracking over the treatment of potential rapists in films (whether we personally like the film stars in question or
not)?
For sure, it happened and shouldn't be shied away from, but that is different than trying to excite modern audiences with it.
True, naive women may write fanfiction about such distasteful films because their favourite male film stars agree to play in a scene which presents a potential rape as an erotic tableau.
But shouldn't we, as feminists regard such a regressive move with some anxiety?
I certainly wouldn't recommend this film to anyone actively interested in women's rights, so you do well in keeping away from it, though it comes up on television every few weeks, it seems.
For sure, as you say, mythology didn't have a problem with rape, women having so few rights, being allocated as war prizes, etc. Achilles and all the ancient heroes were rapists to a man by modern standards, consent didn't come into it.
My point is that 'Troy' is indicative of a tendency of modern filmmakers, who in a few films, are exploiting ancient settings to depict abuse of women uncirtically. For sure it happened and it would be absurd to pretend otherwise, but that is no excuse for t he threat of rape being presented as erotic to titiliate modern audiences.
The whole film 'Troy' is permeated with male sexual fantasies, as indicated by the rough treatment of one of the women (previous war prizes, presumably, with no choice but to go along with their master's desires) who are in a threesome with Achilles, then going on to his implied rape threat to Briseis.
As I say, the film film makers are disingenuous in that they
ostensibly oppose rape, having Achilles rescue his war prize
from the threat of gang rape from Agamemnon's nasty crew, but they titillate the audience with the threat of his raping her.
For sure, fans of Brad Pitt may be aroused by these scenes (perhaps, as you say, not having ever been threatened with rape in reality). Also, I suppose as I am not a fan of Brad Pitt's type of looks (though I think him a fair actor,
though not in this film) I cannot understand their overlooking the moral issues through admiration of him.
It does worry me as part of an anti-feminist backlash of which I seem to see signs. As I say, compare the fact that Brad Pitt acted in this film with his debut in 'Thelma and Louise'.
It does perturb me, as various male reviewers admitted to finding the rape threat scene 'exciting'. And they weren't thinking about Brad Pitt being their ideal man, either...
Great talking to you. I hope you found time to look at my analysis of 'Briseis and Stockholm Syndrome' on the f word
either for June or July (trust me to be unsure
which!)
MaryLou
I take your point, ancient mythology is full of rapes,
but the point I was making was more complex, indicating a A subtle introduction of rape as acceptable for modern audiences...
You say that perhaps 'the film didn't have a problem with rape' because Bronze Age Greek men didn't.
But that was precisely the problem. It is rather like a film depicting racist abuse uncritically, say in early twentieth century Britain, because at the time that was accepted.
Were that done, there would be an outcry, and no black person would support it.
Surely we as women should take as strong a line of any backtracking over the treatment of potential rapists in films (whether we personally like the film stars in question or
not)?
For sure, it happened and shouldn't be shied away from, but that is different than trying to excite modern audiences with it.
True, naive women may write fanfiction about such distasteful films because their favourite male film stars agree to play in a scene which presents a potential rape as an erotic tableau.
But shouldn't we, as feminists regard such a regressive move with some anxiety?
I certainly wouldn't recommend this film to anyone actively interested in women's rights, so you do well in keeping away from it, though it comes up on television every few weeks, it seems.
For sure, as you say, mythology didn't have a problem with rape, women having so few rights, being allocated as war prizes, etc. Achilles and all the ancient heroes were rapists to a man by modern standards, consent didn't come into it.
My point is that 'Troy' is indicative of a tendency of modern filmmakers, who in a few films, are exploiting ancient settings to depict abuse of women uncirtically. For sure it happened and it would be absurd to pretend otherwise, but that is no excuse for t he threat of rape being presented as erotic to titiliate modern audiences.
The whole film 'Troy' is permeated with male sexual fantasies, as indicated by the rough treatment of one of the women (previous war prizes, presumably, with no choice but to go along with their master's desires) who are in a threesome with Achilles, then going on to his implied rape threat to Briseis.
As I say, the film film makers are disingenuous in that they
ostensibly oppose rape, having Achilles rescue his war prize
from the threat of gang rape from Agamemnon's nasty crew, but they titillate the audience with the threat of his raping her.
For sure, fans of Brad Pitt may be aroused by these scenes (perhaps, as you say, not having ever been threatened with rape in reality). Also, I suppose as I am not a fan of Brad Pitt's type of looks (though I think him a fair actor,
though not in this film) I cannot understand their overlooking the moral issues through admiration of him.
It does worry me as part of an anti-feminist backlash of which I seem to see signs. As I say, compare the fact that Brad Pitt acted in this film with his debut in 'Thelma and Louise'.
It does perturb me, as various male reviewers admitted to finding the rape threat scene 'exciting'. And they weren't thinking about Brad Pitt being their ideal man, either...
Great talking to you. I hope you found time to look at my analysis of 'Briseis and Stockholm Syndrome' on the f word
either for June or July (trust me to be unsure
which!)
MaryLou
4Citizenjoyce
I just read the article, MaryLou. Very interesting. Literature, at least in the past, was full of stories of women captives becoming fond of their captors. I'm sure there were those that showed what to me would have been a more realistic reaction, unending hatred and attempts at revenge. I remember when I first discovered the painting Judith Slaying Holofernes by Artemisia Gentileschi, and how powerful that was. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemisia_Gentileschi But I'm not sure of the story. Had Judith been his captive? Evidently women have long understood the true feeling that would be present in such a relationship, but men like to think otherwise.
5MaryLou0
CitizenJoyce, I'm glad you liked the article! I couldn't resist poking some fun in the macho nonsense and assumptions in the film, but for sure, it is a serious enough subject...
You are so right; I assume that cases of 'Stockholm Syndrome' occur only in a minority of cases of a woman being held captive, and sexually abused, and that this must always have been so, though no man bothered thinking about what went on in a 'War Prize's' head.
I have a vague stirring of memory about Judith and will have to investigate those links for sure.
Was that the story where she sent him to sleep with a potion and bored through his head? If so, I remember giggling over it in school.
Yes, I do wonder, unfortunately, especially after reading those reviews by men about finding the rape threat scenes in the film 'exciting' if there isn't much to be said for the old slogan of feminists of the nineteen eighties - that a large number of men are in certain situations a potential rapist. I don't like to think so...
Great stimulating discussion. Do keep in touch!
Oh, and I see you have Margaret Atwood's 'The Handmaid's Tale' and 'The Penelopaid' (spelling?) Two favourites of mine...
I'm looking for someone interested in discussing Elizabeth Gaskell's 'Sylvia's Lovers' from a feminist perspective. Any idea how to go about that?
MaryLou (or LucindaE!)
You are so right; I assume that cases of 'Stockholm Syndrome' occur only in a minority of cases of a woman being held captive, and sexually abused, and that this must always have been so, though no man bothered thinking about what went on in a 'War Prize's' head.
I have a vague stirring of memory about Judith and will have to investigate those links for sure.
Was that the story where she sent him to sleep with a potion and bored through his head? If so, I remember giggling over it in school.
Yes, I do wonder, unfortunately, especially after reading those reviews by men about finding the rape threat scenes in the film 'exciting' if there isn't much to be said for the old slogan of feminists of the nineteen eighties - that a large number of men are in certain situations a potential rapist. I don't like to think so...
Great stimulating discussion. Do keep in touch!
Oh, and I see you have Margaret Atwood's 'The Handmaid's Tale' and 'The Penelopaid' (spelling?) Two favourites of mine...
I'm looking for someone interested in discussing Elizabeth Gaskell's 'Sylvia's Lovers' from a feminist perspective. Any idea how to go about that?
MaryLou (or LucindaE!)
6sweetiegherkin
I recall that I saw Troy in theaters when it first came out and it was such drivel, that I honestly can't recall any of it. So I can't really speak to your initial comment. But have you read Reading the Romance by Janice Radway? I'm not a romance novel reader so I was shocked by how many romance novels involve the "hero" raping the heroine but somehow it all works out in the end because the rape was the result of the "hero" loving the heroine so much he couldn't help himself and now she realizes she's madly in love with him, too. Blech. And these books are written by women for women...
7Citizenjoyce
From what I've read, rape fantasies are common in women so that they can enjoy the thought of sex without having to give up their idea that nice girls don't want/have/initiate sex. If that were the case then the only way they could enjoy it would be through rape or, like Bristol Palin, to wake up the next morning pregnant with no idea what happened.
MaryLou, are you a member of the Girlybooks group here in LT? If not, get yourself over there. http://www.librarything.com/groups/girlybooks It's a stupid name, but we discuss good books. You could post a group read of Sylvia's Lovers there, maybe after mentioning it in the what are you reading this month topic. http://www.librarything.com/topic/121431#2885825
MaryLou, are you a member of the Girlybooks group here in LT? If not, get yourself over there. http://www.librarything.com/groups/girlybooks It's a stupid name, but we discuss good books. You could post a group read of Sylvia's Lovers there, maybe after mentioning it in the what are you reading this month topic. http://www.librarything.com/topic/121431#2885825
8MaryLou0
SweethieGherkin I am really shocked that they STILL write such stuff, I honestly didn't realise, I've had a titter over romantic novels in GP's waiting rooms, but none of them involved rape. That is disgusting, do tell me the names of some (not becuse I am going to gloat over them!)
I think there should be a campaign over rape being portayed in a 'romantic' light.
Agree with you about 'Troy' being complete drivel, for sure, it is. It is a little depressing, it seems some men can make an awful film botching up a classic story, and there are many misguided women who love it, rape threats and all, but if the same women are also buying the stories you mention, we have a long, long way to go.
CitizenJoyce Good idea, I'll join, it's so hard to find anyone who has read it/wants to discuss it, but I might be lucky there!
MaryLou
I think there should be a campaign over rape being portayed in a 'romantic' light.
Agree with you about 'Troy' being complete drivel, for sure, it is. It is a little depressing, it seems some men can make an awful film botching up a classic story, and there are many misguided women who love it, rape threats and all, but if the same women are also buying the stories you mention, we have a long, long way to go.
CitizenJoyce Good idea, I'll join, it's so hard to find anyone who has read it/wants to discuss it, but I might be lucky there!
MaryLou
9sweetiegherkin
Well, to be fair, Reading the Romance was written in the 1980s, so maybe the romance fare has changed since then? I don't remember specific titles offhand and I no longer own my copy of Reading the Romance to refer back to it.
Citizenjoyce, that theory makes a lot of sense but I still find it a disturbing trend.
Citizenjoyce, that theory makes a lot of sense but I still find it a disturbing trend.
10MaryLou0
Sweetiegherkin, CitizenJoyce, for sure it is a worrying trend, because don't women see that what a thin end of the wedge situation it is?
It isn't such a gulf from 'women indulge in reading stories about rape' (the caveat that probably these women have never been threatened with rape themselves or they would know that even with an attractive man, their insides would turn to ice) to certain men saying, 'Some women like the idea of rape' then on to, 'They don't mean it when they say No...'
I will have to look at 'Reading the Romance'.
MaryLou
xx
It isn't such a gulf from 'women indulge in reading stories about rape' (the caveat that probably these women have never been threatened with rape themselves or they would know that even with an attractive man, their insides would turn to ice) to certain men saying, 'Some women like the idea of rape' then on to, 'They don't mean it when they say No...'
I will have to look at 'Reading the Romance'.
MaryLou
xx
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