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1gwendetenebre
"Shambleau" by C.L. Moore
DISCUSSION DATE begins September 21, 2011
See "The Deep Ones: 2011 Reading Schedule" thread for more information!
Online Versions:
http://tinyurl.com/44lk2vp
http://tinyurl.com/3mjh77x (see "The Science Fiction Vampire")
Shambleau also appears in:
Vampires, ed. Alan Ryan
Weird Vampire Tales, ed. Robert Weinberg, Stefan R. Dziemianowicz & Martin H. Greenberg,
The Lifted Veil, ed. A. Susan Williams
The SF Collection, ed. Edel Brosnan
Tomorrow Sucks, ed. Greg Cox & T. K. F. Weisskopf
The Penguin Book of Classic Fantasy by Women, ed. A. Susan Williams
Girls’ Night Out: Twenty-Nine Female Vampire Stories, ed. Stefan R. Dziemianowicz, Robert E. Weinberg & Martin H. Greenberg
Blood Thirst: 100 Years of Vampire Fiction, ed. Leonard Wolf
Shambleau and Others by C.L. Moore
Northwest Smith by C.L. Moore
The Best of C. L. Moore by C.L. Moore
Black Gods and Scarlet Dreams by C.L. Moore
DISCUSSION DATE begins September 21, 2011
See "The Deep Ones: 2011 Reading Schedule" thread for more information!
Online Versions:
http://tinyurl.com/44lk2vp
http://tinyurl.com/3mjh77x (see "The Science Fiction Vampire")
Shambleau also appears in:
Vampires, ed. Alan Ryan
Weird Vampire Tales, ed. Robert Weinberg, Stefan R. Dziemianowicz & Martin H. Greenberg,
The Lifted Veil, ed. A. Susan Williams
The SF Collection, ed. Edel Brosnan
Tomorrow Sucks, ed. Greg Cox & T. K. F. Weisskopf
The Penguin Book of Classic Fantasy by Women, ed. A. Susan Williams
Girls’ Night Out: Twenty-Nine Female Vampire Stories, ed. Stefan R. Dziemianowicz, Robert E. Weinberg & Martin H. Greenberg
Blood Thirst: 100 Years of Vampire Fiction, ed. Leonard Wolf
Shambleau and Others by C.L. Moore
Northwest Smith by C.L. Moore
The Best of C. L. Moore by C.L. Moore
Black Gods and Scarlet Dreams by C.L. Moore
2paradoxosalpha
Or in The World Turned Upside-Down here:
http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/13-TheBalticWarCD/TheBalticWarCD/The%20World%...
Or in French (with pictures!) here:
http://www.coolfrenchcomics.com/shambleau.htm
http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/13-TheBalticWarCD/TheBalticWarCD/The%20World%...
Or in French (with pictures!) here:
http://www.coolfrenchcomics.com/shambleau.htm
3gwendetenebre
This message has been deleted by its author.
4paradoxosalpha
"Shambleau" also appears in the Kuttner/Moore collection Two Handed Engine.
5paradoxosalpha
Starting with a couple of pictures by Jean-Claude Forest:
6paradoxosalpha
Moore's "Shambleau" was her first published story, and she got an amazing amount of mileage out of it. It seems like it is in over half of the volumes that collect her own stories, and obviously it's in many multi-author anthologies as well.
While the story is still good, it didn't hold up as well for me on this second reading. In particular, I found the exposition by the Venusian Yarol to be excessive, especially in referring to the Earth legends that were already flagged for the reader in the introductory passage. The obvious use of the mirror should have been left to appreciate by those who already know the Perseus myth, since explaining it to those who don't will make little impression on them. The little dialog at the very end was still effective, though. I think I might have liked the opening scene with the crowd better on the second read, because it really did make sense, with knowledge of how Smith's encounter would play out.
The development of the NW Smith character is interesting, in that he's much less heroic at the end than he is at the beginning. If I hadn't known it before reading the story, I wouldn't have guessed that Moore would go on to write more stories with NW as the protagonist.
While the story is still good, it didn't hold up as well for me on this second reading. In particular, I found the exposition by the Venusian Yarol to be excessive, especially in referring to the Earth legends that were already flagged for the reader in the introductory passage. The obvious use of the mirror should have been left to appreciate by those who already know the Perseus myth, since explaining it to those who don't will make little impression on them. The little dialog at the very end was still effective, though. I think I might have liked the opening scene with the crowd better on the second read, because it really did make sense, with knowledge of how Smith's encounter would play out.
The development of the NW Smith character is interesting, in that he's much less heroic at the end than he is at the beginning. If I hadn't known it before reading the story, I wouldn't have guessed that Moore would go on to write more stories with NW as the protagonist.
7gwendetenebre
This is my first time reading "Shambleau", and in fact this is one of the few C.L. Moore stories I've read, period. Thanks to recommendations here, I recently picked up a volume of Jirel of Joiry stories, which I've enjoyed. Moore has a rather poetic writing style, which elevates these quite a bit above the usual, whether it be the somewhat Dunsanian ring to Jirel or the space-opera setting of "Shambleau", which attains some surreal - and disturbing - erotic imagery.
But this is the infamous Northwest Smith? Is he this ineffectual in other stories?
But this is the infamous Northwest Smith? Is he this ineffectual in other stories?
8gwendetenebre
#6
I also thought that the timeline was somewhat mixed up. I have to check again, but doesn't Moore infer in that introductory paragraph that this story takes place in Earth's distant, forgotten past? If so, then how can the Greeks be referred to? Maybe history does repeat itself....
I also thought that the timeline was somewhat mixed up. I have to check again, but doesn't Moore infer in that introductory paragraph that this story takes place in Earth's distant, forgotten past? If so, then how can the Greeks be referred to? Maybe history does repeat itself....
9elenchus
My first reading, too. I especially appreciated that suspense wasn't derived from wondering what's going to happen or even will NW be alright?!, but in savouring what seems clear is coming, and then slowly enlarging upon the horror when it arrives. By this I don't mean the story arc overall, but the encounter with Shambleau, the inevitability of it. To me this is in keeping with some of my favourite horror: Poe, Lovecraft, James.
I was struck by the passage (going by memory here) "the soul should not be handled", I think repeated a bit later. There is something visceral in that description without bowing to gore or melodrama.
I was struck by the passage (going by memory here) "the soul should not be handled", I think repeated a bit later. There is something visceral in that description without bowing to gore or melodrama.
10paradoxosalpha
> 8
No, I think the timeline reads okay. The idea is that Shambleau has been on many planets for as long as people can remember. Yarol says there are Venusian legends, and the Earth version is Medusa. Nevertheless, the story takes place in our future.
ETA: It looks like the "Man has conquered space before" introduction is missing from some reprints of the story. But that's where the trouble is. Moore seems to assume that "Earth's latest colony on Mars" is a sufficient flag to put the story in our future (along with the American Englishness of the protagonist's name), but I can see how the confusion would arise. Again, I think that opening paragraph is redundant with Yarol's later lecture, but I would prefer to keep the former and abridge the latter, in keeping with the "inevitability" idea mentioned in #9.
No, I think the timeline reads okay. The idea is that Shambleau has been on many planets for as long as people can remember. Yarol says there are Venusian legends, and the Earth version is Medusa. Nevertheless, the story takes place in our future.
ETA: It looks like the "Man has conquered space before" introduction is missing from some reprints of the story. But that's where the trouble is. Moore seems to assume that "Earth's latest colony on Mars" is a sufficient flag to put the story in our future (along with the American Englishness of the protagonist's name), but I can see how the confusion would arise. Again, I think that opening paragraph is redundant with Yarol's later lecture, but I would prefer to keep the former and abridge the latter, in keeping with the "inevitability" idea mentioned in #9.
11artturnerjr
So glad this is finally starting. :)
This is the second Moore story I've read, the first being "Dust of Gods" (another NW Smith story) in the Weird Tales: 32 Unearthed Terrors collection, which I didn't like as much as I liked this one.
I guess the first thing that comes to mind in reading any NW Smith story for a Gen Xer like me (and perhaps this is true for boomers and for younger generations as well - don't know) is Han Solo. Specifically, did George Lucas rip NW straight out of the pages of Moore's stories, change his name to Han Solo, & put him in the script of the STAR WARS films, or does it just seem that way? It's certainly a simpler explanation that all that crap about Joseph Campbell and Jungian archetypes he's always going on about. I'm reminded of the quote from ALIEN screenwriter Dan O'Bannon where he says, " "I didn't steal Alien from anybody. I stole it from EVERYBODY!" :D
Onto the story itself: I thought it was quite good, particularly for a then-neophyte writer - an effective and chilling blend of science fiction and horror tropes, and stylistic she's already miles beyond about 95% of her fellow pulp writers.
Finally (and this one's a bit out of left field, so apoligies for that) - has anyone else read The Maltese Falcon? The ending of this kind of reminded me of the ending of that.
And that's all I'm gonna say... for now. :)
This is the second Moore story I've read, the first being "Dust of Gods" (another NW Smith story) in the Weird Tales: 32 Unearthed Terrors collection, which I didn't like as much as I liked this one.
I guess the first thing that comes to mind in reading any NW Smith story for a Gen Xer like me (and perhaps this is true for boomers and for younger generations as well - don't know) is Han Solo. Specifically, did George Lucas rip NW straight out of the pages of Moore's stories, change his name to Han Solo, & put him in the script of the STAR WARS films, or does it just seem that way? It's certainly a simpler explanation that all that crap about Joseph Campbell and Jungian archetypes he's always going on about. I'm reminded of the quote from ALIEN screenwriter Dan O'Bannon where he says, " "I didn't steal Alien from anybody. I stole it from EVERYBODY!" :D
Onto the story itself: I thought it was quite good, particularly for a then-neophyte writer - an effective and chilling blend of science fiction and horror tropes, and stylistic she's already miles beyond about 95% of her fellow pulp writers.
Finally (and this one's a bit out of left field, so apoligies for that) - has anyone else read The Maltese Falcon? The ending of this kind of reminded me of the ending of that.
And that's all I'm gonna say... for now. :)
12gwendetenebre
#10
The intro paragraph is a bit confusing, and I agree that it should have been left out. The overall structure flows better without it.
Moore does state in that intro, "Somewhere beyond the Egyptians, in that dimness out of which come echoes of half-mythical name - Atlantis, Mu - somewhere back of history's first beginnings there must have been an age when mankind, like us today, built cities of steel to house its star-roving ships and knew the names of the planets in their native tongues..." She then goes on to write "Man has conquered space before, .... and faint echoes still run through a world that has forgotten the very fact of a civilization which must have been as mighty as our own".
That, taken with the last line about the Greeks half-remembering "a tale of antiquity about a strange being from one of the outlying planets their remotest ancestors once trod", I still think sets the stage for the NW Smith story that follows, in which the Shambleu is basically an alien and the truth behind the vampire myths to come - and here Moore foreshadows the alien vampires of Colin Wilson and Brian Lumley. In other words, the intro infers that mankind seems to have blown its first chance on Earth, and this is a tale of what happened there long ago!
I guess it could also be taken that the NW Smith tale takes place "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away", but then how could Smith specifically remember the Medusa legend? #11 - I just read your post after I posted this one - HA!
I bet that the story was originally written as taking place in "our" future, but that the intro was added (forced by editors?) later, and for some reason the continuity lapse wasn't caught.
The intro paragraph is a bit confusing, and I agree that it should have been left out. The overall structure flows better without it.
Moore does state in that intro, "Somewhere beyond the Egyptians, in that dimness out of which come echoes of half-mythical name - Atlantis, Mu - somewhere back of history's first beginnings there must have been an age when mankind, like us today, built cities of steel to house its star-roving ships and knew the names of the planets in their native tongues..." She then goes on to write "Man has conquered space before, .... and faint echoes still run through a world that has forgotten the very fact of a civilization which must have been as mighty as our own".
That, taken with the last line about the Greeks half-remembering "a tale of antiquity about a strange being from one of the outlying planets their remotest ancestors once trod", I still think sets the stage for the NW Smith story that follows, in which the Shambleu is basically an alien and the truth behind the vampire myths to come - and here Moore foreshadows the alien vampires of Colin Wilson and Brian Lumley. In other words, the intro infers that mankind seems to have blown its first chance on Earth, and this is a tale of what happened there long ago!
I guess it could also be taken that the NW Smith tale takes place "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away", but then how could Smith specifically remember the Medusa legend? #11 - I just read your post after I posted this one - HA!
I bet that the story was originally written as taking place in "our" future, but that the intro was added (forced by editors?) later, and for some reason the continuity lapse wasn't caught.
13paradoxosalpha
Leaving the science fiction and even the horror tropes on the side, "Shambleau" seems to be a nearly pristine example of a story structured around a femme fatale. The novelty is her pronounced non-human nature, which makes her part of a reviled category, and brings into relief the persistent comparison to drug addiction. There seems to be a sort of moral position being advanced that man (masculine) should not surrender his will to the inhuman (feminine). Can't say I entirely agree, but there you are. I think that it's an element that has given the story enduring appeal.
14artturnerjr
>13 paradoxosalpha:
Interesting analysis, particularly considering it's a story by a female author. If that's what's going on here, what does that say about what was going in Moore's subconscious? A bit of self-loathing, or was she simply picking up on gender stereotypes from society at large?
Interesting that you bring up the femme fatale achetype, which is of course central to hard-boiled and noir fiction and film. Perhaps the Maltese Falcon comparison I made earlier was more apt than I thought. :)
Interesting analysis, particularly considering it's a story by a female author. If that's what's going on here, what does that say about what was going in Moore's subconscious? A bit of self-loathing, or was she simply picking up on gender stereotypes from society at large?
Interesting that you bring up the femme fatale achetype, which is of course central to hard-boiled and noir fiction and film. Perhaps the Maltese Falcon comparison I made earlier was more apt than I thought. :)
15paradoxosalpha
I don't see "self-loathing." There's nothing to suggest that the shambleau is a figure for human women generally. What is at issue in this deployment of the trope is the fragility of masculine will. If we adopt a traditionally sexist perspective, women aren't expected to have masculine will in the first place, and they are therefore perhaps more free to speculate about its failures and deficiencies.
16artturnerjr
So do you think that's a theme that Moore placed in the story deliberately, or did it just sort of come out that way? Or does it not really matter?
17gwendetenebre
I enjoyed how Northwest ends up a reformed Shambleau-junkie. That's a pretty novel achilles heel for a 1930's pulp hero.
18paradoxosalpha
> 16
Moore was a still-novice author trying to write a story where she could exercise her imagination and hold a reader's attention. I think that the larger gender subtext--essential as it is to the functioning of the story--wasn't a deliberate design. In this respect, the story is like the vast majority of pulp weird fiction. There are almost always gender angles available to the attentive reader.
There's a Michael Moorcock essay somewhere--I could probably find it in my own books with some digging--where he talks about really trying to lay on the phallic symbolism with a trowel in his sword-and-sorcery, having recognized its existing prevalence in the genre. He was really an exception at the time (1970s?) although more recent writers certainly often share his calculating approach.
Moore was a still-novice author trying to write a story where she could exercise her imagination and hold a reader's attention. I think that the larger gender subtext--essential as it is to the functioning of the story--wasn't a deliberate design. In this respect, the story is like the vast majority of pulp weird fiction. There are almost always gender angles available to the attentive reader.
There's a Michael Moorcock essay somewhere--I could probably find it in my own books with some digging--where he talks about really trying to lay on the phallic symbolism with a trowel in his sword-and-sorcery, having recognized its existing prevalence in the genre. He was really an exception at the time (1970s?) although more recent writers certainly often share his calculating approach.
19AndreasJ
I thought there was a bit too much tell-don't-show about Smith's (anti)heroism. Facing down the crowd to protect the girl should be enough evidence of bravery and charisma without narratorial praise of unseen exploits.
That said, pretty good and decidedly creepy story overall. Hadn't read anything by the author before, am now tempted to seek out more Moore.
That said, pretty good and decidedly creepy story overall. Hadn't read anything by the author before, am now tempted to seek out more Moore.
20elenchus
Interesting stuff about the gender angle, whether or not it was deliberate or even semi-conscious on the part of Moore. That fragility of masculine will could even be interpreted as a symbol for human will vis-a-vis anything alien: a trope of rationalism, and as pointed out evident in both SF and horror genres.
That examination of rationalism is actually a big part of what I like in the Weird Tradition, and I think a major reason I like Lovecraft & James. Not saying it's deliberate, but it's a reading I like.
That examination of rationalism is actually a big part of what I like in the Weird Tradition, and I think a major reason I like Lovecraft & James. Not saying it's deliberate, but it's a reading I like.
21paradoxosalpha
Here's an entertaining blog post about "Shambleau" that emphasizes the Wild West genre element in the NW Smith stories: http://polaris93.livejournal.com/1263051.html
And here's one that picks up on the fear-of-miscegenation theme: http://oldschoolheretic.blogspot.com/2010/11/shambleau.html
And here's one that picks up on the fear-of-miscegenation theme: http://oldschoolheretic.blogspot.com/2010/11/shambleau.html
22artturnerjr
>18 paradoxosalpha:
Another later writer who had a lot of fun picking up on the erotic subtext of pulp fiction and exaggerating to an absurd degree is Philip Jose Farmer. Haven't read it, but based on what I've read his A Feast Unknown seems like it's a particularly good example of this.
Another later writer who had a lot of fun picking up on the erotic subtext of pulp fiction and exaggerating to an absurd degree is Philip Jose Farmer. Haven't read it, but based on what I've read his A Feast Unknown seems like it's a particularly good example of this.
23Thulean
This was my second time reading the story and I enjoyed it just as much this time around.
>5 paradoxosalpha:
Thanks for the illustrations. Those are pretty cool.
>11 artturnerjr:
I do think that Northwest Smith was the archetype for Han Solo. He really has a Han Solo feel to him. Also what is curious to me is the guns in the story. I assume that this is pre-laser gun stuff. The guns don't send out a pulse or a blast but are a constant concentrated beam of heat and light and scorches into objects. I am wondering if along to being the precursor to the laser gun if it was also a model for the light saber. I know Lucas took a lot from early sci-fi and pulp adventure stories. That became abundantly clear to me when I was reading Asimov's Foundation trilogy.
>17 gwendetenebre:
I also like the junkie angle. At the end when get a glimpse of NW new addiction when he ask Yarol about other Shambleau and then Yoral wants him to promise something which NW is prepared to agree to until it is asked to kill a Shambleau if he ever comes into contact with another one and he responds with "I'll try."
>21 paradoxosalpha:
I think the story started off with a very Western feel to it. The town kind of reminds one of an old west mining town or something. And then there is the low slung guns worn openly. Smith is obviously a gun fighter type. And of course the local lynch mob.
This may just be me but did anyone else feel that the hair was somewhat vaginal? Not in appearance or anything, of course, but in some of its other aspects. Maybe I am reading too much into that with a mind in the gutter. lol
>5 paradoxosalpha:
Thanks for the illustrations. Those are pretty cool.
>11 artturnerjr:
I do think that Northwest Smith was the archetype for Han Solo. He really has a Han Solo feel to him. Also what is curious to me is the guns in the story. I assume that this is pre-laser gun stuff. The guns don't send out a pulse or a blast but are a constant concentrated beam of heat and light and scorches into objects. I am wondering if along to being the precursor to the laser gun if it was also a model for the light saber. I know Lucas took a lot from early sci-fi and pulp adventure stories. That became abundantly clear to me when I was reading Asimov's Foundation trilogy.
>17 gwendetenebre:
I also like the junkie angle. At the end when get a glimpse of NW new addiction when he ask Yarol about other Shambleau and then Yoral wants him to promise something which NW is prepared to agree to until it is asked to kill a Shambleau if he ever comes into contact with another one and he responds with "I'll try."
>21 paradoxosalpha:
I think the story started off with a very Western feel to it. The town kind of reminds one of an old west mining town or something. And then there is the low slung guns worn openly. Smith is obviously a gun fighter type. And of course the local lynch mob.
This may just be me but did anyone else feel that the hair was somewhat vaginal? Not in appearance or anything, of course, but in some of its other aspects. Maybe I am reading too much into that with a mind in the gutter. lol
24elenchus
>23 Thulean:
The vaginal aspects of the hair would link up with the vampire / femme fatale theme, certainly. I certainly think it can be argued, but I'd guess it was subconscious on Moore's part.
The vaginal aspects of the hair would link up with the vampire / femme fatale theme, certainly. I certainly think it can be argued, but I'd guess it was subconscious on Moore's part.
25paradoxosalpha
Yeah, the "shaggy goddess" element fits the gender reading (but note that Moore describes the shambleau as hairless). The monster isn't sucking NW's blood, exactly, it's his "soul" ... some sort of vital essence, as it were. Hm.
26artturnerjr
>23 Thulean:
Nice to see you here, Thulean. Was wondering when you were going to show up. :)
The vaginal thing totally makes sense. Remember, this is a creature that's consistently described as "feline". I can think of a number of slang terms for a woman's private parts that go along with that. Along the same lines, I'm sure this is a story that has offered endless amusement for any number of 12-year-old boys who have discovered it over the decades. :D
>25 paradoxosalpha:
His precious bodily fluids, perhaps? (Oh wait - that's DR. STRANGELOVE. :D )
Nice to see you here, Thulean. Was wondering when you were going to show up. :)
The vaginal thing totally makes sense. Remember, this is a creature that's consistently described as "feline". I can think of a number of slang terms for a woman's private parts that go along with that. Along the same lines, I'm sure this is a story that has offered endless amusement for any number of 12-year-old boys who have discovered it over the decades. :D
>25 paradoxosalpha:
His precious bodily fluids, perhaps? (Oh wait - that's DR. STRANGELOVE. :D )
27paradoxosalpha
I feel a transition from pulp weird to B-movie horror coming on: now it's a matter of the Martian Pussy of Terror!
28Thulean
>26 artturnerjr:
I was sick for like 5 days with a bad cold or something so I was late to the party.
12 year old boys or 30-something men. :D
>27 paradoxosalpha:
I'm cracking up. I wonder what Moore would think of all of this?
I was sick for like 5 days with a bad cold or something so I was late to the party.
12 year old boys or 30-something men. :D
>27 paradoxosalpha:
I'm cracking up. I wonder what Moore would think of all of this?
30paradoxosalpha
That reference I mentioned in #18 is from "The Secret Life of Elric" in Elric at the End of Time:
"Coupled with the Jungian symbols already inherent in any tale using direct mythic material, I used Freudian symbols, too. This was a cynical attempt and a rather vulgar attempt to make the series popular. It appeared to work. The Stealer of Souls, whatever else it may be, is one of the most pornographic stories I have ever written."
"Coupled with the Jungian symbols already inherent in any tale using direct mythic material, I used Freudian symbols, too. This was a cynical attempt and a rather vulgar attempt to make the series popular. It appeared to work. The Stealer of Souls, whatever else it may be, is one of the most pornographic stories I have ever written."
31artturnerjr
>30 paradoxosalpha:
Moorcock's Elric books are in the top 5 of my "to be re-read" list. I was about 15 years old the last time I read them - I'm pretty sure there's a LOT I missed out on on the first go-'round. :)
Moorcock's Elric books are in the top 5 of my "to be re-read" list. I was about 15 years old the last time I read them - I'm pretty sure there's a LOT I missed out on on the first go-'round. :)
32Thulean
>31 artturnerjr:
That is how I am with Moorcock. Been a while since I actually read him. Other than Wizardry and Wild Romance, which did nothing but make me really not a fan of him as a person.
That is how I am with Moorcock. Been a while since I actually read him. Other than Wizardry and Wild Romance, which did nothing but make me really not a fan of him as a person.
33artturnerjr
>32 Thulean:
I think he's a great writer, and he seems like an interesting guy, but I often find myself completely at odds with his critical judgements. (Lovecraft sucks? Really? J.R.R. Tolkien sucks? Really? We'll see who's best remembered 100 years from now, Mike.)
I think he's a great writer, and he seems like an interesting guy, but I often find myself completely at odds with his critical judgements. (Lovecraft sucks? Really? J.R.R. Tolkien sucks? Really? We'll see who's best remembered 100 years from now, Mike.)
34Thulean
>33 artturnerjr:
Exactly. To be honest I believe his criticism is politically motivated and that is what turned me off.
That is why I have a one sentence review of Wizardry and Wild Romance. Of course my review is highly ironic because being what it is it makes me a "petty bitch." :P
Exactly. To be honest I believe his criticism is politically motivated and that is what turned me off.
That is why I have a one sentence review of Wizardry and Wild Romance. Of course my review is highly ironic because being what it is it makes me a "petty bitch." :P
35paradoxosalpha
It's funny: I like Moorcock's fiction, I mostly agree with his politics, and (like most here, I suspect) I find his politically-motivated literary criticism to be tiresome and unconvincing. My TBR pile currently includes The White Wolf's Son, which is--as far as I know--the only Elric book I haven't read.
36gwendetenebre
Considering that he's been one of SF/fantasy's heavy hitters for decades now, I really don't know that much about Moorcock's personal/political views. I'll have to look for some good interviews. He's just written the introduction for a new edition of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast Trilogy which comes out soon, and which I am really looking forward to. As much as I love the Elric series, I really haven't followed the new books from the past few years. The last one I read was The Fortress of the Pearl
37paradoxosalpha
This reviewer writes of Northwest Smith: "We are told repeatedly that he is an Earthman, though it is only in the later stories that we actually see him on Earth; for all his sentimental attachment, Earth is a place to come from, not a place to be. He is subtly marked as an alien by his eyes, which are colourless. It is only a small step to see the colourless eyes of Northwest Smith turning into the albinoism of another wanderer from exotic adventure to exotic adventure, Michael Moorcock's Elric."
ETA: And here I was, thinking we were going off-topic! (The linked review has a lot on the sexual drama of the NW Smith stories, too.)
ETA: And here I was, thinking we were going off-topic! (The linked review has a lot on the sexual drama of the NW Smith stories, too.)
38Thulean
I've always wanted to read Behold the Man . I think I'll start keeping my eye out for a copy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behold_the_Man
Sounds very interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behold_the_Man
Sounds very interesting.
39artturnerjr
>36 gwendetenebre:
Here are a couple of his more provocative pieces to get you started:
http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953
http://web.archive.org/web/20021224193414/http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/moor...
>37 paradoxosalpha:
Sure - NW is just another incarnation of the Eternal Champion, right? ;)
Here are a couple of his more provocative pieces to get you started:
http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953
http://web.archive.org/web/20021224193414/http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/moor...
>37 paradoxosalpha:
Sure - NW is just another incarnation of the Eternal Champion, right? ;)
40paradoxosalpha
> 39 NW is just another incarnation of the Eternal Champion
Hm, I'd lay longer odds on Eric John Stark. But could be.
Hm, I'd lay longer odds on Eric John Stark. But could be.
41artturnerjr
Was going to post this earlier and forgot. Another riff on the "damsel-in-distress who is not what she seems" idea that I really love is Bruce Jones and Bernie Wrightson's short comic "Jenifer", which is even creepier than Moore's story. In fact, it probably still stands as the scariest comics story I've ever read. You can read it at the link below... if you dare! :D
http://david-z.blogspot.com/2006/11/jenifer-by-jones-and-wrightson-just-say.html...
http://david-z.blogspot.com/2006/11/jenifer-by-jones-and-wrightson-just-say.html...
42gwendetenebre
>41 artturnerjr:
Classic Bernie Wrightson artwork. Especially page 12 panel 5, which was burned into my memory so long ago.... You know, I never made the association until looking just now, but Dario Argento's MASTERS OF HORROR: JENIFER episode was based on this Bruce Jones tale.
Classic Bernie Wrightson artwork. Especially page 12 panel 5, which was burned into my memory so long ago.... You know, I never made the association until looking just now, but Dario Argento's MASTERS OF HORROR: JENIFER episode was based on this Bruce Jones tale.
43artturnerjr
>42 gwendetenebre:
I know. This whole story has haunted me for years. Wrightson is such a master - probably my favorite comics artist of all time. 8)
I know. This whole story has haunted me for years. Wrightson is such a master - probably my favorite comics artist of all time. 8)
44gwendetenebre
>43 artturnerjr:
Don't know if you've seen it, but Dark Horse recently published all of Wrightson's CREEPY and EERIE stories in one collection:
http://tinyurl.com/3ugod8d
Those stories in hardcover at that price is quite a bargain!
Don't know if you've seen it, but Dark Horse recently published all of Wrightson's CREEPY and EERIE stories in one collection:
http://tinyurl.com/3ugod8d
Those stories in hardcover at that price is quite a bargain!
45artturnerjr
No, I have not. Thank you for bringing that to my attention, Kenton - just added it to my Amazon wishlist. 8)
47artturnerjr
Wrightson's FRANKENSTEIN illustrations = proof that there is a God. I have been known to sit and drool over those for hours. That was where he stopped competing with his fellow comics artists and started competing with the likes of Albrecht Durer and Gustave Dore, IMHO.
48Thulean
All those "Studio" guys are awesome, Bernie Wrightson, Barry Windsor Smith, Jeff Jones and Michael Kaluta. Pretty sad Jones just died.
I love Smith's Pre-Raphaelite inspired stuff.
Pretty hard to compete with Dore in my opinion, but I guess those Frankenstein illustration are up there.
I love Smith's Pre-Raphaelite inspired stuff.
Pretty hard to compete with Dore in my opinion, but I guess those Frankenstein illustration are up there.
50RandyStafford
I don't know how many here are familiar with Jason Colavito's The Cult of the Ancient Gods: H. P. Lovecraft and Exterresterial Pop Culture, but he postulates that Lovecraft inspired Erich von Daniken's ancient astronaut theories. (I haven't read the book, only articles by Colavito.)
I think you could make, with this story, a stronger case for Moore inspiring von Daniken.
I think you could make, with this story, a stronger case for Moore inspiring von Daniken.
51paradoxosalpha
> 50
I haven't read Colavito, but it does sound like a stretch to connect von Daniken with HPL. For one thing, the mood is all wrong: von Daniken tends to be optimistic about alien-human interactions.
You're right, the concept of ancient interplanetary contact in "Shambleau" is much more in keeping with the ancient astronauts mythos promoted by von Daniken and others.
I haven't read Colavito, but it does sound like a stretch to connect von Daniken with HPL. For one thing, the mood is all wrong: von Daniken tends to be optimistic about alien-human interactions.
You're right, the concept of ancient interplanetary contact in "Shambleau" is much more in keeping with the ancient astronauts mythos promoted by von Daniken and others.
52artturnerjr
Nice appreciation of Ms. Moore and her writing partner/hubby Henry Kuttner here:
http://www.philsp.com/articles/pastmasters_12.html
http://www.philsp.com/articles/pastmasters_12.html
53artturnerjr
"Shambleau" read by C.L. Moore. No, seriously.
https://youtu.be/dj5JNPHh3ZM?list=PL_nf1grB8dv8ZwK8tpcEHc9iW-PydsBcC
https://youtu.be/dj5JNPHh3ZM?list=PL_nf1grB8dv8ZwK8tpcEHc9iW-PydsBcC
56artturnerjr
>54 paradoxosalpha:
I know, right?
>55 gwendetenebre:
And a very lucky one as well. Happened to do a Google search on Moore last night and a link to an io9 story with a link to the YouTube vid came up on the very first page. A Facebook acquaintance of mine has the original LP that it's from and assures me it's authentic. Had know idea that such a thing existed.
I know, right?
>55 gwendetenebre:
And a very lucky one as well. Happened to do a Google search on Moore last night and a link to an io9 story with a link to the YouTube vid came up on the very first page. A Facebook acquaintance of mine has the original LP that it's from and assures me it's authentic. Had know idea that such a thing existed.
