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1gwendetenebre
"Nethescurial" by Thomas Ligotti
DISCUSSION BEGINS OCTOBER 26!
Online Versions:
"Nethescurial" - Thomas Ligotti
http://www.ligotti.net/showthread.php?t=433
(not p.d., but posted w/ the author's permission)
Print Versions:
The Nightmare Factory
Grimscribe,
The Book of Cthulhu
Miscellany:
http://thebookofcthulhu.com
DISCUSSION BEGINS OCTOBER 26!
Online Versions:
"Nethescurial" - Thomas Ligotti
http://www.ligotti.net/showthread.php?t=433
(not p.d., but posted w/ the author's permission)
Print Versions:
The Nightmare Factory
Grimscribe,
The Book of Cthulhu
Miscellany:
http://thebookofcthulhu.com
2artturnerjr
A more attractive presentation of the story from the same site:
http://www.ligotti.net/tlo/nethescurial1.htm
http://www.ligotti.net/tlo/nethescurial1.htm
3gwendetenebre
This message has been deleted by its author.
4gwendetenebre
I'm not that well read in Ligotti, but he strikes me as being one of the few who can take now-cliched Lovecraftian themes and make them work to great effect. I think the sardonic humor in this tale helps a lot. I'll start the conversation with some random observations:
“Of course, any number of locales may serve as the setting to reveal ominous truths; evil, beloved and menacing evil, may show itself anywhere precisely because it is everywhere and is as stunningly set off by a foil of sunshine and flowers as it is by darkness and dead leaves.”
This reminds me of the line that goes to the effect of "True evil is when a rose begins to sing" – now, who said that?
“A figure descends a long staircase, crosses the great distance of the room, and solemnly greets his guest.
Shades of Browning’s DRACULA!
“Traipsing through the same old foggy scene, seeking the same old isolated house, the puppets in these plays always find everything new and unknown, because they have no memories to speak of and can hardly recall making these stilted motions countless times in the past. They struggle through the same gestures, repeat the same lines, although in rare moments they may feel a dim suspicion that this has all happened before.”
Love the way that Ligotti acknowledges that yes – this is yet another tip into Lovecraft Land. But in this case, the author is deliberately making the characters go through the tired old motions with specific intent in mind.
“The nature of that pandemoniac entity is very intriguing. Imagine all of creation as a mere mask for the foulest evil, an absolute evil whose reality is mitigated only by our blindness to it, an evil at the heart of things, existing “inside each star and the voids between them—within blood and bone—through all souls and spirits”, and so forth.”
Not only does this seem even bleaker than HPL’s point of view, but it goes against HPL's contention that these entities are beyond good or evil (a common criticism when Derleth completed HPL's unfinished stories).
“I saw that every map had one thing in common: within each group of islands, whatever language was used to name them, there was always one called Nethescurial. It was as if all over the world this terrible name had been insinuated into diverse locales as the only one suitable for a certain island.”
Is Nethescurial the Lovecratian/Ligotti version of Maple Street?
“Like someone who has had too much to drink the night before and swears off liquor for life, I have forsworn any further indulgence in weird reading matter.”
Ha! That never works for long!
“This conclusion had its beginning in the park, a place that is actually some distance from my home, so far had I wandered. It was already late at night, but I was still walking about, treading the narrow asphalt path that winds through that island of grass and trees in the middle of the city.”
This sounds very much like Joshi’s descriptions of HPL’s late-night jaunts during his time spent living in NYC.
“That shape is not drawing something out of me and putting something else in its place, something that seems to be bleeding into the words as I write. And my pen is not growing bigger in my hand, nor is my hand growing smaller, smaller . . .’
I enjoy the manner in which Ligotti incorporates the sinister puppet imagery. It cannot help but bring to mind any number of creepy ventriloquist’s dummy tales ranging from film to comic books. Also the “shrinking down” idea reminds me of the dwarf-monsters from PHANTASM.
“Of course, any number of locales may serve as the setting to reveal ominous truths; evil, beloved and menacing evil, may show itself anywhere precisely because it is everywhere and is as stunningly set off by a foil of sunshine and flowers as it is by darkness and dead leaves.”
This reminds me of the line that goes to the effect of "True evil is when a rose begins to sing" – now, who said that?
“A figure descends a long staircase, crosses the great distance of the room, and solemnly greets his guest.
Shades of Browning’s DRACULA!
“Traipsing through the same old foggy scene, seeking the same old isolated house, the puppets in these plays always find everything new and unknown, because they have no memories to speak of and can hardly recall making these stilted motions countless times in the past. They struggle through the same gestures, repeat the same lines, although in rare moments they may feel a dim suspicion that this has all happened before.”
Love the way that Ligotti acknowledges that yes – this is yet another tip into Lovecraft Land. But in this case, the author is deliberately making the characters go through the tired old motions with specific intent in mind.
“The nature of that pandemoniac entity is very intriguing. Imagine all of creation as a mere mask for the foulest evil, an absolute evil whose reality is mitigated only by our blindness to it, an evil at the heart of things, existing “inside each star and the voids between them—within blood and bone—through all souls and spirits”, and so forth.”
Not only does this seem even bleaker than HPL’s point of view, but it goes against HPL's contention that these entities are beyond good or evil (a common criticism when Derleth completed HPL's unfinished stories).
“I saw that every map had one thing in common: within each group of islands, whatever language was used to name them, there was always one called Nethescurial. It was as if all over the world this terrible name had been insinuated into diverse locales as the only one suitable for a certain island.”
Is Nethescurial the Lovecratian/Ligotti version of Maple Street?
“Like someone who has had too much to drink the night before and swears off liquor for life, I have forsworn any further indulgence in weird reading matter.”
Ha! That never works for long!
“This conclusion had its beginning in the park, a place that is actually some distance from my home, so far had I wandered. It was already late at night, but I was still walking about, treading the narrow asphalt path that winds through that island of grass and trees in the middle of the city.”
This sounds very much like Joshi’s descriptions of HPL’s late-night jaunts during his time spent living in NYC.
“That shape is not drawing something out of me and putting something else in its place, something that seems to be bleeding into the words as I write. And my pen is not growing bigger in my hand, nor is my hand growing smaller, smaller . . .’
I enjoy the manner in which Ligotti incorporates the sinister puppet imagery. It cannot help but bring to mind any number of creepy ventriloquist’s dummy tales ranging from film to comic books. Also the “shrinking down” idea reminds me of the dwarf-monsters from PHANTASM.
5paradoxosalpha
My initial reaction on completing a read of "Nethescurial":
I hate it when that happens!
I hate it when that happens!
6paradoxosalpha
“This conclusion had its beginning in the park, a place that is actually some distance from my home, so far had I wandered. It was already late at night, but I was still walking about, treading the narrow asphalt path that winds through that island of grass and trees in the middle of the city.”It's also like many passages in Machen: he is often wont to set his protagonists in late-night urban walks, as a result of personal habit, nagging curiosity, missed trains, or whatever.
This sounds very much like Joshi’s descriptions of HPL’s late-night jaunts during his time spent living in NYC.
7paradoxosalpha
This is the first Ligotti I've read (I think), and I'm pretty impressed with him as a stylist, but I must take exception to a single instance of word choice:
worshipants
Are they also appropriate for secular wear? Do they match the worshitop?
It's practically a googlewhack. And were it to be legitimated by some published lexicon, I'd reply that just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
worshipants
Are they also appropriate for secular wear? Do they match the worshitop?
It's practically a googlewhack. And were it to be legitimated by some published lexicon, I'd reply that just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
8gwendetenebre
>6 paradoxosalpha:
Perhaps Machen influenced HPL in more ways than one!
>7 paradoxosalpha:
I think he combined "supplicants" with "worshippers". Saves time. Or maybe "worshipant" is a station exclusive to the Nethiscurial cult.
Perhaps Machen influenced HPL in more ways than one!
>7 paradoxosalpha:
I think he combined "supplicants" with "worshippers". Saves time. Or maybe "worshipant" is a station exclusive to the Nethiscurial cult.
9paradoxosalpha
The liturgical fragment/refrain in "Nethescurial" is particularly fine:
In the rooms of houses and beyond their walls—beneath dark waters and across moonlit skies—below earth mound and above mountain peak—in northern leaf and southern flower—inside each star and the voids between them—within blood and bone, through all souls and spirits—among the watchful winds of this and the several worlds—behind the faces of the living and the dead...It made me wonder if Ligotti had taken some inspiration (direct or mediated) from the "Invocation of the Bornless One," a text from an ancient Hellenistic magical papyrus prefaced by S.L. Mathers to his edition of the Goetia, which reads in part:
Hear Me, and make all Spirits subject unto Me: so that every Spirit of the Firmament and of the Ether: upon the Earth and under the Earth: on dry Land and in the Water: of Whirling Air, and of rushing Fire: and every Spell and Scourge of God may be obedient unto Me.This passage was pilfered by Allen Bennett in his invocation of Thoth, where the magician declares:
Come Thou forth, I say, come Thou forth!The general form is also echoed in Aleister Crowley's Liber Legis III:17:
And make all Spirits subject unto Me:
So that every Spirit of the Firmament
And of the Ether.
And of the Earth.
And under the Earth.
On dry land
And in the Water.
Of whirling Air
And of rushing Fire.
And every Spell and Scourge of God the Vast One, may be obedient unto Me!
Money fear not, nor laughter of the folk folly, nor any other power in heaven or upon the earth or under the earth.And in his prayer to the Saints in the Gnostic Mass:
... continuing knowledge from generation unto generation, thou adored of us upon heaths and in woods, on mountains and in caves, openly in the marketplaces and secretly in the chambers of our houses, in temples of gold and ivory and marble as in these other temples of our bodies ...
10artturnerjr
Good stuff, guys. 8)
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say this not only my favorite story that we've read so far in this group (with "The Sword of Welleran" being a very close second), it is possibly THE creepiest piece of weird/horror fiction I've ever read.
The Wikipedia article on misotheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheism) makes for fascinating reading vis a vis this story (it also namechecks Tim Maroney, who, if memory serves, is a friend of paradoxosalpha's). Briefly, it deals with the concept of misotheism (hatred of God/the gods) and related concepts such as dystheism (belief that a god is not wholly good, and is possibly evil). These, to me, are possibly the most powerful themes that art can deal with. The outstanding use of the misotheistic/dystheistic theme in fiction that I've yet come across in fiction, aside from "Nethescurial", is in Harlan Ellison's "The Deathbird", and, excellent story that that is, it still lacks the raw visceral punch of "Netherescurial". Ligotti does such an outstanding job here of drawing you into to the narrator's worldview (primarily, I think, through the very gradual change in tone from dismissive sarcasm to awe-full horror) that, if the story hits you the way it's intended to (and it is, of course, read in what Ambrose Bierce referred to as "the suitable surroundings"), you know it's going to be one that will haunt you for years to come.
And, since my computer is giving me grief again, that's all I'm gonna say for now.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say this not only my favorite story that we've read so far in this group (with "The Sword of Welleran" being a very close second), it is possibly THE creepiest piece of weird/horror fiction I've ever read.
The Wikipedia article on misotheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheism) makes for fascinating reading vis a vis this story (it also namechecks Tim Maroney, who, if memory serves, is a friend of paradoxosalpha's). Briefly, it deals with the concept of misotheism (hatred of God/the gods) and related concepts such as dystheism (belief that a god is not wholly good, and is possibly evil). These, to me, are possibly the most powerful themes that art can deal with. The outstanding use of the misotheistic/dystheistic theme in fiction that I've yet come across in fiction, aside from "Nethescurial", is in Harlan Ellison's "The Deathbird", and, excellent story that that is, it still lacks the raw visceral punch of "Netherescurial". Ligotti does such an outstanding job here of drawing you into to the narrator's worldview (primarily, I think, through the very gradual change in tone from dismissive sarcasm to awe-full horror) that, if the story hits you the way it's intended to (and it is, of course, read in what Ambrose Bierce referred to as "the suitable surroundings"), you know it's going to be one that will haunt you for years to come.
And, since my computer is giving me grief again, that's all I'm gonna say for now.
11paradoxosalpha
Tim was a friend, yes. He died in 2003.
I agree about the creepiness. This story is very effectively aimed at its likely readers in a very personal way. You, yes: you sitting there reading this, jaded by your prior exposure to weird horror. But there was something that could once make your gut flip over in distress at the sort of ideas you find there. Ligotti creates a frame that invites you to recover that sensation and then imagine being trapped by it.
I agree about the creepiness. This story is very effectively aimed at its likely readers in a very personal way. You, yes: you sitting there reading this, jaded by your prior exposure to weird horror. But there was something that could once make your gut flip over in distress at the sort of ideas you find there. Ligotti creates a frame that invites you to recover that sensation and then imagine being trapped by it.
12gwendetenebre
>10 artturnerjr:
"THE creepiest"? A strong statement - elaborate a bit more on what makes it affect you that way? This is a really dark, intense tale with no grue or overt violence for the most part, which I always appreciate.
Thanks for the misotheism/dystheism information. This is fascinating stuff, although again, I don't think it can be applied to the Lovecraftian point of view. Not that characters can't lean that way, of course. And not that there are rigid rules that all writers need to go by - what if Lovecraft was wrong, for example!?!
I too really enjoyed the sardonic/sarcastic tone from the narrator (as in "The Yellow Sign"). BONUS POINTS: the word "ichor" is used in the last paragraph!
"THE creepiest"? A strong statement - elaborate a bit more on what makes it affect you that way? This is a really dark, intense tale with no grue or overt violence for the most part, which I always appreciate.
Thanks for the misotheism/dystheism information. This is fascinating stuff, although again, I don't think it can be applied to the Lovecraftian point of view. Not that characters can't lean that way, of course. And not that there are rigid rules that all writers need to go by - what if Lovecraft was wrong, for example!?!
I too really enjoyed the sardonic/sarcastic tone from the narrator (as in "The Yellow Sign"). BONUS POINTS: the word "ichor" is used in the last paragraph!
14artturnerjr
>11 paradoxosalpha:
I'm sorry to hear that. That makes it especially nice to know that his work is still out there.
>11 paradoxosalpha: & 12
What makes this work for me, I think, even beyond the stuff that Lovecraft wrote (blasphemy, I know), is that he actually goes HPL one better. It's as if he saying, "Okay, HPL's philosophy was one of cosmic indifference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmicism#.22Cosmic_indifference.22), i.e., the belief that the forces of the cosmos are completely indifferent to the fate of the human race. But what if I were to tell that things are, in fact, much, MUCH worse than that - that the force or forces that dominate the cosmos are, in fact, actively malignant, eating away at every atom in existence like an omnipresent cancer? Would that freak you out a little bit?" The answer for me is a resounding "yes".
As to why it affected me, specifically, the way it did - I don't know. As I said before, I think the extremely subtle & gradual change in tone is a key. I find the imagery pretty devastating, too. This bit kills me:
"Then I noticed that the others were doing the same: all of them had turned around on the benches and, with expressionless faces and dead puppet eyes, held me to the spot. Although their mouths did not move, they were not silent. But the voices I heard were far more numerous than was the gathering before me. These were the voices I had been hearing as they chanted confused words in the depths of everyone’s thoughts, fathoms below the level of their awareness. The words still sounded hushed and slow, monotonous phrases mingling like the sequences of a fugue. But now I could understand these words, even as more voices picked up the chant at different points and overlapped one another, saying, “In the rooms of houses . . . across moonlit skies . . . through all souls and spirits . . . behind the faces of the living and the dead.”
*shivers*
Fuck! It's like that bit about, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you", which is usually stated with a small smirk as a joke, but Ligotti posits the idea (horribly convincingly, I think) of, "But what if it's NOT a joke?" What if you're having what appears to be a schizophrenic breakdown and it's revealed to you that, no, you are not experincing a disabled sense of reality but rather a HEIGHTENED sense of reality, that you are actually privy to an ultimate reality that would make a strong man cry out in insane horror? If that's not a nighmare scenario, I don't know what is.
I'm sorry to hear that. That makes it especially nice to know that his work is still out there.
>11 paradoxosalpha: & 12
What makes this work for me, I think, even beyond the stuff that Lovecraft wrote (blasphemy, I know), is that he actually goes HPL one better. It's as if he saying, "Okay, HPL's philosophy was one of cosmic indifference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmicism#.22Cosmic_indifference.22), i.e., the belief that the forces of the cosmos are completely indifferent to the fate of the human race. But what if I were to tell that things are, in fact, much, MUCH worse than that - that the force or forces that dominate the cosmos are, in fact, actively malignant, eating away at every atom in existence like an omnipresent cancer? Would that freak you out a little bit?" The answer for me is a resounding "yes".
As to why it affected me, specifically, the way it did - I don't know. As I said before, I think the extremely subtle & gradual change in tone is a key. I find the imagery pretty devastating, too. This bit kills me:
"Then I noticed that the others were doing the same: all of them had turned around on the benches and, with expressionless faces and dead puppet eyes, held me to the spot. Although their mouths did not move, they were not silent. But the voices I heard were far more numerous than was the gathering before me. These were the voices I had been hearing as they chanted confused words in the depths of everyone’s thoughts, fathoms below the level of their awareness. The words still sounded hushed and slow, monotonous phrases mingling like the sequences of a fugue. But now I could understand these words, even as more voices picked up the chant at different points and overlapped one another, saying, “In the rooms of houses . . . across moonlit skies . . . through all souls and spirits . . . behind the faces of the living and the dead.”
*shivers*
Fuck! It's like that bit about, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you", which is usually stated with a small smirk as a joke, but Ligotti posits the idea (horribly convincingly, I think) of, "But what if it's NOT a joke?" What if you're having what appears to be a schizophrenic breakdown and it's revealed to you that, no, you are not experincing a disabled sense of reality but rather a HEIGHTENED sense of reality, that you are actually privy to an ultimate reality that would make a strong man cry out in insane horror? If that's not a nighmare scenario, I don't know what is.
15gwendetenebre
>14 artturnerjr:
Good points. I suppose that one might at least have a chance at survival in a cosmically indifferent universe.
"Then I noticed that the others were doing the same..." I picked up on that bit, too. Very cinematic. In fact, that scene that would translate to the screen really well if this story was ever filmed.
Good points. I suppose that one might at least have a chance at survival in a cosmically indifferent universe.
"Then I noticed that the others were doing the same..." I picked up on that bit, too. Very cinematic. In fact, that scene that would translate to the screen really well if this story was ever filmed.
16artturnerjr
>15 gwendetenebre:
Oh, totally. I can actually see how you would edit it & everything:
Shot of puppets staring at camera; match cut to audience members staring at camera. Slowly, on soundtrack, overlapping, affectless, chanting voices fade up: "In the rooms of houses... across moonlit skies..."
That would be awesome. :D
Oh, totally. I can actually see how you would edit it & everything:
Shot of puppets staring at camera; match cut to audience members staring at camera. Slowly, on soundtrack, overlapping, affectless, chanting voices fade up: "In the rooms of houses... across moonlit skies..."
That would be awesome. :D
17AndreasJ
The self-referentially is pretty cleverly done, but reminding me of the clichés of horror fiction doesn't really work for me in terms of evoking, well, horror. I find myself wondering, not what horrible fate will befall the narrator, but what clever twist Ligotti will pull next.
Is Ligotti always like this, or does he do more straight horror stories too? I do unreservedly appreciate his way with words.
Concerning cosmic indifference v. cosmic evil, the later has the disadvantage of reverse theodicy - if the universe in general hates our guts, why is it so easy to imagine things being far, far worse? Indifference gives the author an easy out as to why the Eldritch Powers haven't bothered to wipe us out or enslave us yet. If Nethescurial really is omnipresent and omnimalevolent, why does it restrict itself to tormenting a particular letter-writer? The story, IMO, actually makes more sense if it's a entity on a much more local rung of the totem pole, which the cultists only erronously believe to be pantheistical.
Is Ligotti always like this, or does he do more straight horror stories too? I do unreservedly appreciate his way with words.
Concerning cosmic indifference v. cosmic evil, the later has the disadvantage of reverse theodicy - if the universe in general hates our guts, why is it so easy to imagine things being far, far worse? Indifference gives the author an easy out as to why the Eldritch Powers haven't bothered to wipe us out or enslave us yet. If Nethescurial really is omnipresent and omnimalevolent, why does it restrict itself to tormenting a particular letter-writer? The story, IMO, actually makes more sense if it's a entity on a much more local rung of the totem pole, which the cultists only erronously believe to be pantheistical.
18paradoxosalpha
Well, if Nethescurial is only a malign infection now pervasive in my universe, it's a great consolation to know that it doesn't thoroughly contaminate the Universe. After all, I'm not dying in a nightmare.
19AndreasJ
Well, if Nethescurial is only a malign infection now pervasive in my universe, it's a great consolation to know that it doesn't thoroughly contaminate the Universe.
It shouldn't be.
The one dying nightmarishly is in horror regardless. The one reading about it may be more horrified if the scenario feels more sensible.
It shouldn't be.
The one dying nightmarishly is in horror regardless. The one reading about it may be more horrified if the scenario feels more sensible.
20paradoxosalpha
> 19
My underscores indicated sarcasm, via the final sentence of the story under discussion.
My underscores indicated sarcasm, via the final sentence of the story under discussion.
21AndreasJ
I realize you were being sarcastic. What I'm apparently not getting is your underlaying point.
22paradoxosalpha
> 21
Okay. My failure perhaps, but I'm resigned to it.
Okay. My failure perhaps, but I'm resigned to it.
23artturnerjr
>17 AndreasJ:
"Concerning cosmic indifference v. cosmic evil, the later has the disadvantage of reverse theodicy - if the universe in general hates our guts, why is it so easy to imagine things being far, far worse? Indifference gives the author an easy out as to why the Eldritch Powers haven't bothered to wipe us out or enslave us yet. If Nethescurial really is omnipresent and omnimalevolent, why does it restrict itself to tormenting a particular letter-writer? The story, IMO, actually makes more sense if it's a entity on a much more local rung of the totem pole, which the cultists only erronously believe to be pantheistical."
Aha, but you misunderstand the nature of Nethescurial. He (she? it?) is merely toying with us in order to make our imminent toture and annihilation that much more delicious. :)
"Concerning cosmic indifference v. cosmic evil, the later has the disadvantage of reverse theodicy - if the universe in general hates our guts, why is it so easy to imagine things being far, far worse? Indifference gives the author an easy out as to why the Eldritch Powers haven't bothered to wipe us out or enslave us yet. If Nethescurial really is omnipresent and omnimalevolent, why does it restrict itself to tormenting a particular letter-writer? The story, IMO, actually makes more sense if it's a entity on a much more local rung of the totem pole, which the cultists only erronously believe to be pantheistical."
Aha, but you misunderstand the nature of Nethescurial. He (she? it?) is merely toying with us in order to make our imminent toture and annihilation that much more delicious. :)
24paradoxosalpha
It's all a matter of denial. You can imagine things being worse; you can't bring yourself to confront the fact that they are worse. The entire trajectory of "Nethescurial" is one in which the speaker's initial incredulity is converted to a denial that becomes gradually more fragile and absurd in the face of his experience. That's why the final line works so well.
26paradoxosalpha
> 25
It is. And that much better for the fact that the story would still stand without it, as contrasted with "The Outsider" or "Pickman's Model."
It is. And that much better for the fact that the story would still stand without it, as contrasted with "The Outsider" or "Pickman's Model."
27gwendetenebre
>17 AndreasJ:-24
I think I understand what Andreas is saying. If the entity is such an all-powerful, all-pervading evil being, why would it even take the time toy with the narrator when there is so much more to accomplish? I suppose that one could argrue that that is just the sort of thing that such an entity would enjoy doing, but then the idea of the cosmic entity gets dragged down to the level of the mundane. That's why Lovecraft's idea of cosmic indifference is, well, cooler.
>17 AndreasJ:
"The self-referentially is pretty cleverly done, but reminding me of the clichés of horror fiction doesn't really work for me in terms of evoking, well, horror. I find myself wondering, not what horrible fate will befall the narrator, but what clever twist Ligotti will pull next."
Actually, I can kind of agree with that statement. I enjoyed the story from a more distanced perspective, as what Ligotti was doing as a writer was always first and foremost in my mind as I was reading. The creepy imagery provided a fine counterbalance, though.
I think I understand what Andreas is saying. If the entity is such an all-powerful, all-pervading evil being, why would it even take the time toy with the narrator when there is so much more to accomplish? I suppose that one could argrue that that is just the sort of thing that such an entity would enjoy doing, but then the idea of the cosmic entity gets dragged down to the level of the mundane. That's why Lovecraft's idea of cosmic indifference is, well, cooler.
>17 AndreasJ:
"The self-referentially is pretty cleverly done, but reminding me of the clichés of horror fiction doesn't really work for me in terms of evoking, well, horror. I find myself wondering, not what horrible fate will befall the narrator, but what clever twist Ligotti will pull next."
Actually, I can kind of agree with that statement. I enjoyed the story from a more distanced perspective, as what Ligotti was doing as a writer was always first and foremost in my mind as I was reading. The creepy imagery provided a fine counterbalance, though.
28gwendetenebre
>25 artturnerjr:/26
It is a great line to end the story on.
I can't resist mentioning my favorite opening line in horror fiction:
"This morning I put ground glass in my wife's eyes"
Now without Googling it - anyone know the source?
It is a great line to end the story on.
I can't resist mentioning my favorite opening line in horror fiction:
"This morning I put ground glass in my wife's eyes"
Now without Googling it - anyone know the source?
30gwendetenebre
My experience with reading Ligotti runs to this one and a few that have been in horror anthologies. Considering his reputation, it's kind of strange for me not to have at least one volume of his stories in my collection!
He's had several titles released by Subterranean Press. I like the cover of this one:
http://tinyurl.com/3w45tqs
Note the quote from SF Signal: "he writes because ‘there are those who require witnesses to their doom’ ".
He's had several titles released by Subterranean Press. I like the cover of this one:
http://tinyurl.com/3w45tqs
Note the quote from SF Signal: "he writes because ‘there are those who require witnesses to their doom’ ".
31AndreasJ
> 27: Yes, that's essentially it. Insisting on cosmic evil raises distracting questions, and this case seemingly unnecessarily so, as the story would seem to work just as well with Nethescurial as a devil with merely local powers.
Nobody, BTW, answered my question whether all Ligotti's work is this self-referential. I'm still curious.
Nobody, BTW, answered my question whether all Ligotti's work is this self-referential. I'm still curious.
32paradoxosalpha
After picking on Ligotti for worshipants, I want to give him props for Nethescurial itself. Here's a de novo non-English proper noun, and I'll bet that we all pronounce it the same way! This is a test of linguistic perspicacity that many fantasists fail again and again.
33paradoxosalpha
After reading "Nethescurial," I'm very interested in Grimscribe, but it sure seems pricey and hard-to-get. (A complaint that will doubtless fall on deaf ears among the Centipede Press consumers out there.)
I'm especially impressed by the astronomical prices being asked for used copies of the mass-market paperback.
I'm especially impressed by the astronomical prices being asked for used copies of the mass-market paperback.
34gwendetenebre
Looking at Amazon, AbeBooks and Alibris (U.S. sites only), I see that used copies of the Grimscribe paperback generally run in the $25-$35 range. Higher for mint condition. Definitely a find if you could locate it in a used book store (I'll keep it in mind for you as I go a-roving).
35artturnerjr
Yeah, Ligotti's back catalogue is ridiculously expensive, which is one of the reason I haven't delved into to it (which, BTW, is why I never answered #31's question: "Nethescurial" is the only fictional work of Ligotti's I've read). It seems like he's long overdue for an inexpensive paperback collection of his best stuff, which would probably happen if he got just a little bit more popular, which (since he writes mostly short stories, which seem to be anathema to 95% of the reading public) is probably not gonna happen. So it goes. :/
36artturnerjr
Just completed my third or fourth reread of "Nethescurial" (due to having the opportunity to read it in an actual physical book for the first time), and I am happy to report that the story's bad-acid-trip vibe remained just as potent for me as the first time I read it.
...I have been loath to take nourishment during this time. How could I put anything in my mouth, when everything looked the way it did? Hard enough to touch a doorknob or a pair of shoes, even with the protection of gloves. I could feel every damn thing squirming, not excluding my own flesh. And I could also see what was squirming beneath every surface, my vision penetrating through the usual armor of objects and discerning the same gushing stuff inside whatever I looked upon.
*shudders*
...I have been loath to take nourishment during this time. How could I put anything in my mouth, when everything looked the way it did? Hard enough to touch a doorknob or a pair of shoes, even with the protection of gloves. I could feel every damn thing squirming, not excluding my own flesh. And I could also see what was squirming beneath every surface, my vision penetrating through the usual armor of objects and discerning the same gushing stuff inside whatever I looked upon.
*shudders*
