Lists, of a sort Part II

Quoting rsterling's summary in message 244

Based on this conversation, thumbs seem actually to be used for many different purposes:

1) To indicate that one thinks a book belongs or doesn't belong on a list (this is similar to thumbing in member recommendations). For the books that changed the world, we might interpret this as thumbs up = did change the world (belongs on list); thumbs down = didn't (doesn't belong on list).
2) To rank order / move things up or down on the list. (For the change the world list: this one changed the world more/less than that one.)
3) To indicate that one likes or dislikes a book. (This is consistent with how thumbing up works for reviews, more or less.) The thumb is thus not meant to tell us whether someone thinks the book belongs on the list, or that it should be higher or lower, but simply that the person does or doesn't like the book - independent of whether it should be on the list. (For the change the world list, that could mean: yes this influenced the world, and I think it's a pile of dog doo/basket of rainbows, or no this didn't influence the world and I think it's a pile of dog doo/basket of rainbows, or I have no opinion about whether this influenced the world, but I think it's a pile of dog doo/basket of rainbows.)
4) To indicate some other positive or negative judgment specific to a particular list. (For the change the world list: influenced the world positively vs. influenced the world negatively)

So yeah, I think I've changed my mind about votes and thumbs being equivalent; maybe votes would be even just a little less ambiguous -- especially if there was some guidance on what votes were about.

Some still open questions:

- Are there some kinds of lists that would work well with thumbs?

- Can we expect people to read the originators instructions and interpret it the same way as the originator?

- Does Zoe's proposal for combinative (? - I think that's the term she used) going to work for all lists, or do we need something simpler where you can do a fly-by post/thumb/vote?

Composite.

(I wonder, does ditching the old thread and starting this one guarantee Tim won't come back and read the backlog of messages? Has this become just like the other thread about lists he seemed to have never read, either?)

Adding the link to the lists feature.

3: Uh, oh. Didn't think about whether it would stop Tim from reading the old one. I hope not.

#5 by @aulsmith> I think when it hit 200 messages, all hope was probably lost anyway. :D

I guess the only hope is to start repeating ourselves then.

Answering the last posts of the old thread: Since my thumbs were hurting peoples feelings I removed them. But it teaches me a lesson about wasting the time answering questions. I did fully explain myself, and point out that I understood why someone would find my interpretation of the list description+thumbing functions strange. But when I look back I see I might have understood this a long time ago. "What justification do people have..." is usually a rhetorical question. My mistake.

Anyway, you can cheer up, Brightcopy, I will not add any books at all to the list ;)

*Back to lurking mode.*

>2 aulsmith:
Good questions.

Are there some kinds of lists that would work well with thumbs?
Lists focused on a simple, subjective category work well with thumbs. The question is what books best fit the category and it makes sense for people to vote both up and down.

Can we expect people to read the originators instructions and interpret it the same way as the originator?
No. It's difficult to ask an unambiguous poll question. I can see both sides of the examples that were argued over in the prior thread. I think people will likely stick to the basic topic of a list but it will be much harder to get compliance on specific adding and voting instructions.

Composite lists
These would be good for lists of "your insert adjective clause books". But they are not necessarily a replacement for the "all time insert superlative clause books" lists that work well with thumb voting.

Another type of lists could be collaborative objective lists. In this case whether or not the book fits is not a matter of opinion, but simply of fact. For instance the list of books with covers showing sexy women without heads. For this type of list there doesn't have to be voting or ranking but there would be some need to be some way to police additions to make sure they actually fit the category.

I basically agree with eromsted in #9.

On the specific question of people interpreting instructions differently, I think things will be okay as long as everyone is acting in good faith.

10: Since we saw several instances on the previous thread of people acting in good faith and being castigated, often for reasons that had nothing to do with their thought process, I disagree. Clearly there are going to be people who feel very protective of certain lists and threatened by interpretations of the voting system that differ from theirs no matter how well intentioned the voting may be. (Though I think you said earlier that more voting would probably make the outlier interpretations less of a problem, with which I agree.)

>11 aulsmith: Well, if we could agree that the lists would turn out okay regardless, then ideally we could also agree that everyone should stop castigating each other.

Why does there have to be a very specific reason why people thumb either up or down? Everyone gets two directions in which to move books (unless they opt not to use the thumbs at all), and, after everyone on LT who wishes to use this option has their say, individual thumb counts will have a lot less meaning in the end.

So...save your barbs for others times and places.

Haha! mkjones list is brilliant! :)

I apologize if I offended. I was merely pointing out a usage that was contrary to the description of a list and detrimental to the stated purpose of the list.

I probably wouldn't have brought it up if it weren't for the beta nature of these lists and thus the importance of bringing up problems that may be improved upon in the implementation.

For example, I would hope that Tim adds the ability for the list creator to disallow down thumbs (or no votes) and also the ability to limit the number of thumbs that each member may apply.

15>

For example, I would hope that Tim adds the ability for the list creator to disallow down thumbs (or no votes) and also the ability to limit the number of thumbs that each member may apply.

I wouldn't like disallowing no votes without also disallowing yes votes.

I would be in favor of allowing the list creator to disallow voting, or to limit the number of votes a member could apply, but the "no disagreement allowed" of permitting only yes votes and not no votes seems silly to me.

If the list is about the book that hooked you into reading fantasy (or whatever) then no doesn't make sense, but a accumulation of positive votes does make sense. It's not that no disagreement is allowed but if I say that x is my first fantasy book then you can't say "no it wasn't".

It depends on what the type of list but Tim should absolutely allow yes votes without allowing no votes. I agree though that allowing no votes at all should be another option.

ETA: Let me put it another way. If someone created a list of birthdays then it makes sense that more than one person could share a birthday (thumb up) but it doesn't make sense to try to negate someone's vote about when their birthday is.

#16 by @lorax> I would be in favor of allowing the list creator to disallow voting, or to limit the number of votes a member could apply, but the "no disagreement allowed" of permitting only yes votes and not no votes seems silly to me.

But isn't it equally silly that some people down-thumb while others just don't bother? Doesn't that just add noise to the whole thing? To me, that's the rationale behind disallowing down thumbs.

> 14

That's not a list, it's a game.

> 19

At least I didn't create one called "I ku, you ku, we all ku for Haiku!"

It depends on what the type of list but Tim should absolutely allow yes votes without allowing no votes. I agree though that allowing no votes at all should be another option.

I just wouldn't call it "yes votes". If we're making lists of "my 10 favourite fantasy books", it makes sense that everyone gets to list exactly ten books, and that the totals are just added up. I don't see how negative votes would fit in here.

I think this gets to one of the fundamental differences between popularity lists and composite lists.

And I think there's room for both; we don't have to agree on one single type for all lists.

re: 19

Why can't it be both a list and a game?

I think flexibility in the implementation of a feature and creativity in how a feature is used is ultimately a good thing.

I think flexibility in the implementation of a feature and creativity in how a feature is used is ultimately a good thing.

Agreed.

jjwilson, 15.

Actually, after thinking more about it I do agree with you on the interpretation of the list. But it all depends on what you interpret. If you look at the description only, you are right, but if you look at the page including all its functions (which might be more likely if you identify less with LT) and take that as a part of the definition (as I did) you will end up interpreting it differently.

And (@Brightcopy, first thread) saying that I am bad, so bad, is not going to solve the problem. People can be a bit far fetched when they interpret things, and they are not always going to be reading the thread about it. And, to be honest, I don't think it is that horrible that interpretations differ, even when some indeed are strange.

As for the sarcasm in my last post I just meant that the replies I got were not in any way constructive. But my last post wasn't neither so who am I to complain anyway ;)

I see your point that if the down thumbs are there then that's a sort of implicit acknowledgement that it's ok to use them. All the more reason that the list creator should be able to specify that only up thumbs be allowed and have that reflected in the presentation.

I never said you were a bad person. I simply said it was bad behavior to basically to participate in a list someone constructed and do exactly what they asked you not to in the list description. It's like going into the Scifi Forum and talking about romance novels. Sure, there's nothing to stop you from what you're talking about, except for the stated description of what the forum was set up for. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

>24 auntSteelbreaker:-26
And here's why I said it's difficult to write good poll questions. And why user descriptions are not sufficient to get compliance with specific voting instructions.

An alternate interpretation of the "Gateway Book: Fantasy" list-

The title of the list is general. It doesn't say "your gateway book," it just says "gateway book." The description is, "What is the single book that sparked your interest in Fantasy?" Now it's reasonable to read this as an instruction to vote for only one book, but it doesn't explicitly say that. It doesn't say, "Vote for the one book that sparked your interest in fantasy. Give that book one thumb up and make no other votes."

So an alternate reading is that the description is simply a clarification that "gateway book" refers to the "single book that sparked your interest" (with "your" understood in it's passive voice form). And with that definition in mind people should vote on the best gateway book thumbing up and down in the manner of any other popularity list.

This wasn't my initial reaction to the list description, but I don't think it's bad faith to read it this way.

27> Wow, I've never had one of my sentences so thoroughly analyzed :)

... I have to say I have thoroughly lost interest in following the discussion since it devolved into abstruse quarreling about "intentions" and voting. I imagine I'm not the only one. (At least, the lurkers support me in email.) I would like to propose that we return to a discussion of OTHER features of the "lists" feature and worry about the voting separately. Perhaps set up a separate thread to talk about "voting on lists".

Here I'm going to reiterate an earlier complaint:
* Can we please have continuous numbering of the lists? When I change pages each page is numbered 1-20.

And here's another:
* What's going on with this? Are we going to have more improvements? More "list types"? More updates about plans?

-- lquilter

29: I'm not objecting to a broader discussion. However, how the voting works seems to have been Tim's first concern in his initial post. We have experimented with several different methods of using the thumbs and (despite the sniping) have identified several relevant issues that might impact how the next iteration of the feature looks (assuming the developers are paying attention, which some of us doubt.)

Your issues require input from developers, so perhaps they would get more attention if they were moved to a new thread?

So, about that communication: Again, delays aren't an issue. But if you say you'll be busy all week and will have lots of time on the weekend, then it would be nice if, by the time Saturday night came around, you had at least taken two minutes to say something like "working on it" or "unexpected delay--will get back to this tomorrow/next week/whatever".

21>

Yes, exactly.

That's not a "thumbs-up" situation, though. I can see a limited number of additions per person, with aggregation, but not a insipid, Thumper-esque, "you can approve but not disapprove!"

32> I guess I was just seeing that for that kind of list adding a book or thumbing up a book are the same thing which is "this is the book that introduced me to fantasy", not any sort of Thumper-esque approval.

So, what are some examples of non-composite lists where we'd want thumbs up but not down? Do these exist?

Conversely, what are some examples of composite lists where we'd want thumbs down as well? Do these exist?

A list where each person could choose only a single work would make a pretty silly composite list. Do you really want to force people to make lists with only a single work?

>35 jjwilson61: I personally don't think lists where people can contribute a single work are going to turn out very well anyway. They'll lack the depth of more broadly-based lists, clumping even more than usual toward the standard works, and they'll require many times more participants to achieve the numbers required to produce meaningful rankings.

But in principle, I don't have a problem with a deliberate single-item list. The issue I had with short lists was if they were being created unintentionally.

Tim's been working on lists right along; he's following these threads, but is trying to focus on building the feature :-)

Thanks, that's good to know.

33>

The thing is, though, if people are given the option to have thumbs up but not thumbs down, they're going to use it for all sorts of lists, including things like "Best X books", or "Books you haven't read", because there really are people who view disagreement as a vicious personal attack, and I don't think it's worth it to have that option as a general thing, as opposed to the "add a book and aggregate" option for the thing where the idea is that each individual pick a single book or a small fixed set of books.

34>


Conversely, what are some examples of composite lists where we'd want thumbs down as well? Do these exist?


"Best books in genre/topic X." "Books with X characteristic". Take Tim's "Best SF books", for instance -- I like being able to distinguish a non-vote of "I didn't read this or don't feel strongly about it" from "This is a terrible book and doesn't belong on any list of bests".

Or are these not "composite" by your definition?

The thing is, though, if people are given the option to have thumbs up but not thumbs down, they're going to use it for all sorts of lists, including things like "Best X books", or "Books you haven't read"

I confess I don't see the problem here. Some might not want thumbs down on such lists, but some (you if no-one else, one assumes) will. What's lost by accommodating both kinds?

39> Call it something else then. Instead of Popularity List call it a Limited Choice List where you can choose a set number of books instead of thumbing them.

>39 lorax: I was using "composite" to refer to lists that are aggregated from people's individual lists.

Call it something else then. Instead of Popularity List call it a Limited Choice List where you can choose a set number of books instead of thumbing them.

Like, say, Composite List ;)

Your hammer may not be the best tool for every job.

Even for lists like Favorite Childhood Books thumbing one of them down seems to me like someone is denying that that book was someone's favorite. As in "How dare they tell me that my favorite books aren't my favorite books".

I just think a Favorite list shouldn't allow down thumbs while Best lists would. I suppose Favorite lists should be composite lists then, although we still have no idea if Tim ever intends to implement them.

Even for lists like Favorite Childhood Books thumbing one of them down seems to me like someone is denying that that book was someone's favorite. As in "How dare they tell me that my favorite books aren't my favorite books".

If it's just voting, I don't see it as denying someone else's vote. It's just saying that I personally didn't like it; it seems reasonable for the list to be based on the difference between favourites and anti-favourites.

It's adding votes to aggregate lists that I don't think makes sense, but that seems to be what Tim is planning to do. Though of course, it's possible that he changed his mind at some point.

45>

Even for lists like Favorite Childhood Books thumbing one of them down seems to me like someone is denying that that book was someone's favorite. As in "How dare they tell me that my favorite books aren't my favorite books".

No. A down-vote doesn't take away your up-vote; it's still there, with your name attached, for the world to see. What that down vote is saying is that your favorite books are not their favorite books, and that perhaps they actively disliked them.

Which is just disagreement. And if you can't handle someone saying "I didn't like your favorite book", maybe cooperative lists are not the place to keep your list of favorite books.

No. A down-vote doesn't take away your up-vote;

It sounds like a disagreement in what a down-vote means. That's fine and I don't have a need to try to convince you that you're opinion isn't valid.

The language list is a good example of how effective voting can be. Eats, Shoots and Leaves is one of the most popular books about language, with far more votes than any other--but half of those votes are negative, because many people don't actually think it's that great. So the book ends up in the middle of the list, rather than being at the top just because it's well-known.

#49 by @_Zoe_> That is a pretty good example. A title only two people voted for (both positive) is "more popular" than a title which seven people voted for? I don't agree.

But I'm not really sure of how to solve it other than being able to disallow thumbs down.

ETA: I also note that a title that only ONE person voted for (and no one downvoted) is getting in the list above Eats. But I attribute that to a buggy sorting algorithm, since there's another one below it with 1/0.

49, 50>

Part of the disagreement may be the disconnect between the list title "Great books about language" and the list type "Popularity list". Is Eats, Shoots, and Leaves popular? Unquestionably. Is it great? There's considerable disagreement. So I voted based on the list title, because I don't think it's great (I also don't think English usage books are really about "language" in the same sense as some of the others on the list), not on the question of "Was this a popular book?".

50> ETA: I also note that a title that only ONE person voted for (and no one downvoted) is getting in the list above Eats. But I attribute that to a buggy sorting algorithm, since there's another one below it with 1/0.

I'm not sure I'd call it buggy since both books have a positive 1 score if you add the up and down thumbs and count the down thumbs as negative. But you have a good point in that it would make sense to for the books with more up thumbs to sort above the other books that have the same score.

</i> (I closed italics just in case ...)

I've played around with this first implementation of lists that Tim has put out there and - acknowledging that Tim is working on it in the background and that the final implementation will be a lot different - I still think they are silly and there are a lot more important things that should be worked on.

>50 brightcopy:

If one thumb up equals one thumb down, then the result of any calculation will be integer. It probably makes more sense to have a thumb up = (1.01 * thumb down) - or a thumb down = (0.99 * thumb up).

49: I actually have not idea of whether the book Eats, Shoots, and Leaves is a good book or not, but for me it is a book about English grammar, not about language, which is a whole different kettle of fish. Therefore, I gave it a thumbs down as well as all the other books that are books about the grammar of one language.

Again, what might seem perfectly clear to the maker of the list, is not clear when you put it out to the whole community. In this case, the linguists are (currently) outvoting the English grammar group. Whether that would be true if more people were voting is unclear.

Re: weight of votes - there's the suggestions that the sorting is off because thumbs up should weigh more than thumbs down, but shouldn't a thumbs up or down weigh more than no thumb at all?

I would expect 2-1 to be similar to 7-6 and both to come under 1-0, because a negative thumb has more impact than no thumbs at all. But 7-6 would be above 2-1. I'm not at all sure how to express it in algorithmic terms.

Why shouldn't a negative thumb just be equal to a positive thumb? It's simple, easy to understand, and it's been very effective in the case of member recommendations, at least. I wouldn't mind having different rules for how ties are sorted, but I don't think it will be too important in the long run; with more voters, there shouldn't be as many ties anyway.

I can see changing the name of the list type, since the books aren't just ordered by raw popularity, as defined elsewhere on the site. Maybe "popular opinion" list? (I don't think the use of "popularity" is problematic on its own; the word does have a sense of approval, rather than just recognition. It's only when combined with the site use of "added by lots of people" that things get a bit weird.)

Hey guys. I'm sorry to have been absent. I've been dealing with a lot, including being ill. (I worked some of this weekend, but not always with a clear head.) I'm fairly close on the next step of this—allowing lists to be ordered.

I kept up to date on reading this. I'll do so as soon as I am able.

Take care of yourself, Tim.

Thanks for the update. I hope you're feeling better.

> 57

Thanks, Tim. Hope your head clears up soon!

As you're reading these, I have a request, and that is to be able to see a list of all lists. I am fairly certain that when you first created this, lists were made that I am no longer seeing.

>60 lilithcat: For now, you can get at earlier lists by changing the number in the url and leaving out the list name.

I certainly agree that a complete list is essential, though, and the sooner the better. It's harder to test out the feature when only half of the lists are readily accessible.

> 61

And lists that aren't readily accessible aren't going to get any activity, which means they won't show up on the page, which means they won't get any more activity, etc. etc!

I would like there to be a section for "Lists you've participated in" or for "Your Lists" to include all the ones you've voted on, not just the ones you are the creator of. (Particularly since there isn't a list of all lists, but also because once there are many, many lists this will be valuable.

(Apologies if this has been mentioned, because to be honest I started skimming a while ago because most of it was about thumbs.)

Regarding thumbs, I do like the idea of the list creator deciding between 1) Composite list 2) Thumbs, no thumbs, or only one set of thumbs 3) Amount of thumbs. If a person is taking the time to create a list, hoping that the result will have value to him or herself and his or her intentions, LT should assist in that. I think if a person sees a list he/she would rather have a different amount/style of thumbs he/she is free to create that list him/herself.

Good idea, EmScape!

If lists are going to have a multitude of options then maybe the list properties should be displayed alongside the list so that,

Best Fantasy (Popularity list, Up and Down Thumbs, Unlimited Thumbs) and
Best Fantasy Books (Popularity list, Only Up Thumbs, 5 Thumb limit)

can be easily distinguished.

65^Yes, good point. It didn't occur to me that there would have to be some disambiguation.

64^ :) Thanks.

Well, I've never been one to oppose a multiplicity of options for the sake of keeping everyone happy....

That said, and given Tim's often-expressed preference for simplicity, I still think it's worth stating that I think the vast majority of cases could be handled by only a few options:
1) Unlimited up and down voting (i.e., what we have now)
2a) Unlimited positive only voting
2b) Limited positive only voting

I'd certainly be satisfied with these choices, and it would make for a cleaner UI.

I do think there's still room for personal lists and purely collaborative lists (where there's no voting but everyone can edit equally), but those discussions are probably best left for later.

68>

Why not add 1b) Limited positive and negative voting, for completeness?

It's clear that what most people want out of collaborative lists (validation of and agreement with their own personal opinions) isn't what I want out of collaborative lists (jointly arriving at an overall list by combining many different opinions), but I've decided I'm okay with that; I've enjoyed LT for this long without lists, it's not like having uninteresting lists is going to change that.

>68 lorax: Yeah, maybe you're right about adding it in for completeness. I did think about it, but I can already see the same list concept multiplying more than is really useful (vote up and down as much as you want for the best books... now just say which ones you like, as many as you want... now just list your top 10), and at some point that's going to have a negative effect on participation in any given list. I'm also more concerned about other list features, like comments, than about allowing lots of options for the underlying structure. I wouldn't object if limited up and down voted were added, but I don't see it as a priority.

It's clear that what most people want out of collaborative lists (validation of and agreement with their own personal opinions) isn't what I want out of collaborative lists (jointly arriving at an overall list by combining many different opinions)

I think we'll still end up with the sort of lists you want, even if it's not what people were aiming for. I'm hoping so, anyway.

I don't really see how comments are going to work well with the kind of lists I'm envisioning, which will hopefully have hundreds of votes. Perhaps you could allow a link to a talk thread? Or are you thinking about really specialized lists (Best Portuguese Books about Fishermen) where you don't expect a lot of votes?

>70 jjwilson61: I'd prefer to have comments embedded in the page instead of just linking somewhere else.

Goodreads has comments at the bottom of their lists (example), and so does BoardGameGeek (example). BoardGameGeek also has a comment thread for each individual game on the list; they can be shown and hidden.

I'd also like each user to be able to give one single comment along with their vote, though. Maybe the names (which will eventually have to be hidden behind a "show more") could show a little speech bubble beside the ones that came with a comment, and the text could show on mouseover.

Even with hundreds of votes, though, I wouldn't expect too many comments. Look at the member recommendations for Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone: I'd estimate that less than 1% of the votes came with comments.

71> I like that Boardgame geek example - (and must dig out some of those games too!)

I noticed that the list page is now showing all lists.

I'm somewhat late to this discussion, but I noticed something when checking out a couple of lists yesterday. There's no annotation. For example take a look at one that is for audiobooks...the editions don't list the narrator and don't have any notes about the narrator or why the list maker included it. Seems like a big omission to me.

Continued here.