The Detour Group Read / Finished Novel Spoiler Thread

As per request, here we can discuss the entire novel of The Detour. This thread is for those who have finished the novel, of those who wish to peek ahead...;)

Okay, the thread is linked on Wiki too.

I'll be back with discussion / questions later in the day.

Thanks for setting us up, Deb. I am having a frustratingly slow reading week (real life keeps interfering!). But I'll be back. I am so curious as to what your questions are.

I've got so many questions and theories / ideas about the book I hardly know where to start. I just pose a few here now before I have supper.

One thing I'm wondering is this book to be read as actual happenings? Is that why there is are several reference to the children's book the Wind in Willow, which Emily aka Agnes reads? Or has Emily lost her senses and so some of the things that happen are not quite as we read them? Or - did Bakker write a book full of gibberish? ;) Or is this book sort an homage to Emily Dickinson, who was solitary , thought a lot about death and loved nature?

For starters there is the poem of Emily Dickison's at the start of the book

Ample make this bed
Make this bed with awe:
In it wait for judgement break
Excellent and fair.

Be it's mattress straight
Be it's pillow round;
Let no sunrise' yellow noise
Interrupt this ground.

That poem is apparently used for eulogies - so it's a poem about death.

I'll break up my thoughts and questions and come back later with more.

From chapter 21 page 47 - She picked up the the Collected Poems and opened it at it's contents page. She'd had this book for more than a decade , etc... and now noticed for the first time how short the section titled LOVE was and how long the last, TIME AND ETERNITY. She started to cry.

Why has she just noticed this now in Emily Dickinson book of poem - because love seems short - but she realizes that she is dying and all of that makes her cry?

Chapter 22 - The husband sat .... His wife's mother sat next to him on the couch ... her father on the chair - though we do learn that the husband's name is Rutger , mostly they are they are referred to as the husband, , the father, the mother, etc... is that to create distance, or are they archetypes? from wiki


Archetypes are often used in myths . Is this story kind of a myth/ moral/ ? like Wind in the Willows that Emily aka Agnes reads quite often? If you notice, very few people have names. The doctor, the hairdresser , the baker - the baker's wife has the name Awen -but very few do. Why is that?

I'll be back later with more questions/ thoughts.

Perhaps that is why no one seems to believe her - or questions her about the badger biting her? Perhaps she is hallucinating a bit with her illness? Or we are left to take the story as we interpret it? Or is she mentally ill and this how she perceives things?

I have a lot of specific observations and questions to make/ask, but this just popped into my head. Maybe all the geese represent Bakker sending us on a "Wild Goose Chase" for themes and meaning! Ha! :) However I'm not sure that the phrase, which is an English one translates into the Dutch. Just a thought!;)

Okay, sorry, not meaning to hog the thread, but I realize that Dee and Carsten are on different times that I am -and Nancy too - and she has not yet read finished the novel

What do make of Rhys Jones and his son, Bradwen Jones? They are supposedly father and son -but they do not seem to be seen together at once. What is the glimmer in Bradwen's eyes that causes "Emily" to be unable to look into both of his eyes at once. Is he there to help to accept her upcoming death - or could he be her son from an sexual relationship with her uncle? Page 149 / /Chapter 46, Emily is observing him "Not just a boy now, a son.

Then a few sentences later in the same chapter, she asks Bradwen " Why did you come over the stream and the garden wall?"

" I took a detour via the stone circle." - So, Bradwen took a detour.

But why did she seem to reject the lamb at Christmas from Rhys - but take the Haddock from Bradwen? Why does she reject the father and embrace the son? Are they both one and the same - because we never understand them to be together. Do they represent something helping her towards acceptance of her death? Are they real?

What do you think her illness is ? We know she is supposed to be in treatment for something, which is never revealed to us.

Or, is she having a mental breakdown ?

Well, I've got tons of questions. I'll leave it for now. Can't wait to hear your thoughts. Please enlighten me!! :)

A lot of keen observation and questions, Deb. Coming to it later.

First let me share an interview with Bakker on The Detour. Google-Translated from dutch.

http://translate.google.dk/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl...

As I can figure out he says that she's suffering from A severe "rotziekte" which would be putrid fever, or typhus fever.

That could explain her problems with smelling The Old Lady of the house, and her delirium, fantasising, hallucinating.

But again - this you normally don't get in Netherland, and typhus fever can be cured and stopped, but she deliberately choose to let it run its course. Would she have been found alive they would have forced treatment on her...If I'm right about the translation....

One gets the feeling that part of her experience is made up, maybe as Deb suggest the badger bite.

It would seem strange if the boys visit is only a dream, as he's interacting also with the husband at the end, but clearly some of her experiences with the boy is very unclear, dreamlike sequences, like she's hallucinating a lot, in and out of dreams...

How is the connection with the former young student and Bradwen? She's offered consolation and forgiveness? She reaches for it but also want him to leave. Desperate for help and compassion, yet secluded and wants to die.

What very thoughtful questions, Deb. I don't pretend to be able to answer any of them but I will add my thoughts!

6: The section entitled Time and Eternity being so much longer than Love does seem to be something that could suddenly strike you as being terribly poignant after having not noticed it for years! It's a very trivial point but I wondered if it would be the Collected Poems that Emelie/Agnes would study. Wouldn't an academic usually study works in their original form? Or not? Maybe somebody more academic than me can enlighten me!

That's a really interesting point about the characters being referred to by their roles rather than their names. I agree this creates a distance and also makes them seem archetypal. Except of course, the characters often do not confirm to what we would expect from that role! Perhaps there's a touch of irony here as Bakker displays the gap between what we expect of a husband, a wife, a doctor etc and how they actually behave.

Re. the badger bite. I've been thinking about that too. I think the bite represents the attack of illness. Perhaps we're meant to be unclear about whether it really happened? I do think the illness was probably physical as it was identified during fertility treatment and Emelie required pain killers to deal with it. But some of Emelie's behaviour was distinctly unusual and there did seem to be some kind of breakdown going on. I still suspect abuse was an issue in Emelie's past which might be linked with her attraction to withdrawal from life which was shown in the fantasies about drowning before her actual decision to take her own life.

8: You spotted the poster on the doctor 's waiting room, Deb, didn't you? Was it AIDS or not? If it was, Emelie behaved incredibly irresponsibly in not telling her husband and having unprotected sex with Bradwen. I also would have expected the husband to have a different kind of dialogue with his doctor if that had been the case! However it would explain the anger of the first year student and possibly his allegations that she'd been "sleeping around".

The set-up with Bradwen Jones, Rhys Jones and Emelie reminded me of the dynamic between the characters in The Twin. There is an unappealing father, the mother is dead, a protagonist in pain and brief respite from the pain for the protag in the form of an attractive young man. I suspect this probably says something about Bakker!

One question I am left with regards the husband and wife's relationship. What sort of relationship is it, where both are unfaithful, the wife disappears when she is ill and the husband only bothers to look for her because she is ill? Well obviously a very bad one but why on earth were they still together? I didn't get the impression Bakker has a high opinion of marriage.

I still find Emelie's sexuality difficult to understand. She certainly had a thing for boys much younger than her, the student, Bradwen, even the boy at the garden centre got her attention!

Going back to your question about lamb and fish Deb, I think fish is easier to manage and doesn't have the same associations of bloody slaughter of innocence!

Just a quick thought while I'm awake in the middle of the night.

This infection that she is suffering from, could it be an opportunistic disease that has had a serious effect on her because she has AIDS? I only ask that because:

It was discovered that she " needed treatment" in the course of investigating her and husbands fertility. Of course, we do not know what that treatment was for.

In chapter 42 , she is seeking stronger pain medications from the doctor in the town. She looks again at the poster on the wall and the exit sign.

'She stared over the doctors shoulder. Only now did she realize - perhaps because it was lit from a different angle or because she was now looking at it without really focusing - that the HIV poster showed the torso of a dark - skinned man .... from the side, a pert ass. Only now did she understand the "Exit Only"at the bottom . The poster must be ancient. She wondered why this had a thing like that hanging in his surgery. She couldn't imagine it striking a chord with many patients in this small town. ( In words, anal sex is not a good idea - the anus / pert ass is an"Exit Only".?) Maybe Bakker is joking with us a bit?

That makes me wonder - did she have AID's ? But then why would the husband not be informed?

Or - maybe she has cancer that was found -and with that too, opportunistic diseases can also kill you, because of the chemo and the treatment that you take lowers you immune system.

Just a few thoughts. Maybe she decided not to treat her cancer/ AID and thus the badger bite was enough to cause a big infection?

More later...

Thanks so much for your contribution, Carsten. I'll look at more in the daytime..

Just a quick reply Dee, I've got to get back to bed! But yes, I was wondering why everyone hated Emilie so much for sleeping with the student. Usually that would be kept a secret . It is university, not high-school. Chapter 12 - she is heartless bitch .. etc.

If she had AIDs, that would explain - sort of, the fact that her husband suddenly seem to feel unwell himself - like the broken leg in the cast, which is never really explained. Maybe that shows that she has spread AIDs to him???

Okay, got to get to bed. I'll look at everything more later on. Thanks so much for joining in! Keep it coming!

Very interesting interview, Carsten and fascinating about the fever which could explain hallucinations and unusual smells! Interesting that if that was the case she could have been treated but chose not to.

Finally caught on to why Bradwen has L and R on his socks. I think it's because she is at a T -intersection in her life, and as Carsten mentioned, I think Bradwen is their to give her hope - Chapter 54 - Bradwen says he studied at the University of Hope.

But he's not going to force his views on her. So, she can go left or right at her T intersection , as indicated by Bradwen's R and L socks that he seems to be always wearing.

14: Excellent, Deb, I would never have thought of Bradwen's socks but yes they too, fit in with the detour theme!

ETA: I may not have time to post again before I go away. I will be offline for a few days but will catch up with all your thoughts on Tuesday!

Dee - thanks for your reflections, a lot to think about. Have some good days away - see you later.

About The Collected Poems I think it's chosen for the reasons of the Chapter headings: LIFE, NATURE, TIME AND ETERNITY, LOVE.

This give Bakker four basic themes/ideas to explore in terms of Emilies situation.

I really think that Bakker gives us a "heartless bitch" as a "heroine" - in our eyes or societys eyes she's an outcast. Not a morally good person at all.

Heavy smoker and drinker, attracted to younger men/boys, having unprotected sex while having aids and/or some sort of infection/fever that can transmit. Leaving her husband, not telling him of the illness etc.....Bakker offers us little in defence of her - probably because there is no defence.

Of course in her own eyes it doesn't matter as she is saying several times - both referring to her conduct and in light of her severe illness.

She also in the end is sort of a a contrast to Emily Dickinson in all her frugality and sexual innocence. Emilie rejects Dickinson at one point doesn't she?

This person is dying and vulnerable and in stead of being repulsed and judging her on the spot, we are intrigued, fascinated, feeling sympathy....also because the way Bakkers prose are formed.

@ 9 - about "rotziekte" : "rot" is merely an emphasis for the word "ziekte" which means "disease". So it actually just means "awful disease" and does not refer to any type of disease. However, in the interview, Bakker refers to Adriaan Jaeggi who died of "the same disease" and he died of bowel-cancer. So maybe the protagonist probably has bowel-cancer, although Bakker specifically does not want to mention the disease itself.

# It makes sense, that Bakker didn't mention the specific disease - it would have surprised me a little bit given the fact that he conceals it throughout the novel - thanks for the info - that also means I shouldn't be so hard on the "heartless bitch" after all - I stand corrected....

Bakker apparently wanted to show the double feeling of wanting help and wanting to be left in peace when one gets a sentence like cancer. Bradwen is a metaphor for the people wanting to help. She's accepting him, but pushing him away at the same time.
I think Bakker especially wants people to think about his novels and they can understand them however they want. He states that he often gets new insights in his own books from what people seem to gather from it. Maybe his books entice people to fill in the gaps in a very personal way, which is different for every individual.

Whoa, couldn't help myself from reading all of the great discussion, even though I am not yet halfway through The Detour. Will be back.

I agree with Monica on this basic theme. Deb have also reflected on it - mentioned the opening verse - and it really opened my eyes, because I had totally forgotten it:

"Ample make this bed"

Bakker wants to explore how we view the preparations for death. How are we preparing for this last bed. Is there room for someone to pull the plug so to speak and refuse further treatment and be left alone to die - no hospice, no doctors. No family. No husband. No forgiveness (remember the family offers it on the phone with the husband).

Bakker takes this idea - and gives us not the most obvious of protagonists. A deeply flawed woman that sees no other solution than escape. From societies judgment - a heartless bitch - from the family that clearly does not understand her - from a husband who probably for many years have been a stranger - from her young lover. Her uncle is probably the only one who she have really connected with - the one with the failed suicide.

Deb mentions the (sacrificial) lamb - and I'm not sure how intentional Bakker is here - but it could be a picture of her refusal of forgiveness - she just want to die alone - and yet - ironic enough - in this waste land - she's both attacked and befriended - in a way from the things she's running from.

Monica - you're right about the double feeling about wanting help and wanting to be left alone - It's a genius way of showing it through Bradwen. Of course it's an odd relationship - and in a way I also - like Deb - has a strange feeling of him being both real and mythic, like an angel, that visits her and offers no explanations, no apologies, but just presence, help, hope. She wants him, and pushes him away again, always observing him - both as a friend and enemy.

Eventually she locks him up (or down - so to speak) because her last bed can only be made alone. And she carefully constructs this bed with pillows.
Remember all the mentioning of bed, lying, the mattress (be its mattress straight) sleeping, shifting from one side to the other, etc.

"Let no sunrise' yellow noise, interrupt this ground" - the geese are quiet, surrounding her - and she is left to die alone, with no interruption.

And Bradwen ends with joyous whistle. It's alright to die this way. It was her choice.

Here's another famous "Amble make this bed"-moment of another suicide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGeqdYTaZbs

We are waiting, Nancy :)

Reflections on some questions from Deb (I know it's a long post...I know)

* Is this book sort an homage to Emily Dickinson, who was solitary, thought a lot about death and loved nature?

- I like the way Bakker expresses it in the interview that he wrote the novel to understand the poem "Amble make this bed". Bakker himself is clearly drawn to the secluded person, loneliness, so in a way it might be an homage to one who in the extreme preferred solitude even on the deathbed.

* Why has she just noticed this now in Emily Dickinson book of poem - because love seems short - but she realizes that she is dying and all of that makes her cry?

- It was one of the powerful moments for me in this novel. I was thinking that Emilie is reminded of how little real love she has in her life - a distant husband and uncaring family etc. Or also how little love she herself has been able to offer others?! And her life is about to end and there's no time left to do anything about it.

I think Bakker is careful not to condone or condemn Emilie - this is not really all black and white is it? Running away like Emilie can both be viewed as courageous and taking charge of one own destiny or as selfish and uncaring.

* Chapter 22 - Mostly they are they are referred to as the husband, the father, the mother, etc... is that to create distance, or are they archetypes?

- When I read this chapter I was just thinking of Emilie together with them and I couldn't see it. It's both ironic and sad, but the family seems so out of touch with reality (just staring at the tv) - their conversation is bizarre - just my feeling about it. I think also it's to create distance as you suggest, Deb. Distance to Emilie.

* Maybe all the geese represent Bakker sending us on a "Wild Goose Chase" for themes and meaning! Ha! :)

- Spot on - I have been fooled a couple of times :)

* What is the glimmer in Bradwen's eyes that causes "Emily" to be unable to look into both of his eyes at once. Is he there to help to accept her upcoming death - or could he be her son from an sexual relationship with her uncle?

- That's the angel-figure :) No, really I noticed that sentence too and wondered about it. Somehow his presence there was too much for her - like looking into both his eyes would expose her in her vulnerable state, that he should see through her, into her soul, she didn't want that kind of intimacy. Afraid what she might find there in those eyes.

It is of course intentional that a young man/boy is entering her life right there - so I also read it a little like her reaction toward the young lover she had once. She's reminded of her past - but also wanting to forget it. I don't think she has had a sexual relationship with the uncle. I think the opposite. That he was the only one who understood her.

* Why does she reject the father and embrace the son? Are they both one and the same - because we never understand them to be together. Do they represent something helping her towards acceptance of her death? Are they real?

- The Father is suspicious, stern and judgmental, the Son is caring and understanding. I don't see them as one and the same. I think Bakker wants to give many different reactions toward Emilie - and in a way the son is in sort of the same position - running away from the father, so he understands her predicament - without probing to much.

I'll be back later to add some more ideas and questions . Great discussion! I'm beginning understand this story, with all of you helping. Bowel Cancer seems likely.

I was thinking on how she could not look Bradwen in the eye - she could only look in one eye or another. But then later in page197 chapter57

"Why did the boy not look back on her even once?". That happens the entire way up the mountain that they are climbing towards the end -

"Yr Wyddfa is the name of the mountain. Burial place"

I think that because the boy represents hope, once she's completely given up hope - he will still with her for comfort, but hardly bear to be with her anymore. I think that is why he won't look at her as once would.

I'll come back later. I'm not so sure that Emilie/ Agnes is a heartless bitch. Maybe she is - but I think perhaps Emily Dickens shared many of her characteristics .

Thanks so much for your thoughts and insights so far. I'm come a long way from wondering if Bakker was leading us on a wild goose chase..:)

I'm wondering if Rhys Jones represents no hope, as Emilie feels. He tells her that she is renting the geese and wants to be sure he is paid up until the end of her rental period. So, maybe he is one direction, the direction Emile choses, and Bradwen represents hope.

Back later - thanks for the fabulous input and discussion!

Can’t comment on all of these posts because I’m still just at Ch 34 (ya, I know, I should be at the other thread, but all the action’s here!), but I have two cents on a couple of things:

-the YouTube video from Sophie’s Choice of “Ample Make this Bed” was remarkable; light goes on! thanks, Carsten
-the unnamed mother, father, husband: I agree Bakker’s purpose here is to create distance
-I’ve read several more references to the uncle, and I also am rethinking my initial response that there was some sexual relationship or abuse there; don’t think so; I’m on board with the uncle being the only one to understand Emilie
-I love how Bakker never judges, and yet he purposely writes of characters who make very controversial decisions (to refuse modern medical treatment) or live alternate lifestyles (The Twin) – subjects he KNOWS will create a flurry of emotional responses for readers; I think it takes remarkable talent to write of matters so personal and yet to wholly abstain from bias, i.e. from projecting any personal comment/opinion onto his characters

Ah! I'll comment later if I get time. I also put together Sophie's Choice and "Ample Make This Bed" , but I was not sure if one related to the other.

Good thing for you and Carsten's brains - as a well as Monica helping understand the meaning of "rotziekte"

What a lot of help you've all been. I'd would have been lost without shared brainpower ! Miss you Dee, have a good holiday! I'm going to watch Carsten's Sophie's Choice link.

That link to the the Bakker interview was a huge help too!

From your post, 16, Carsten

She also in the end is sort of a a contrast to Emily Dickinson in all her frugality and sexual innocence. Emilie rejects Dickinson at one point doesn't she?

I think Emily Dickinson was a controversial figure from what I have read - perhaps not too dissimilar to Emilie .

I'll just attach this link here to her bio - but from other sources I have read that Emily Dickinson's relationship with a female friend was possibly more of an affair, not just a friendship

http://www.answers.com/topic/emily-dickinson

During the 1850s, Emily's strongest and most affectionate relationship was with Susan Gilbert. Emily eventually sent her over three hundred letters, more than to any other correspondent, over the course of their friendship......Sue married Austin in 1856 after a four-year courtship, although their marriage was not a happy one. Edward Dickinson built a house for him and Sue called the Evergreens, which stood on the west side of the Homestead.47 There is controversy over how to view Emily's friendship with Sue; according to a point of view first promoted by Mabel Loomis Todd, Austin's longtime mistress, Emily's missives typically dealt with demands for Sue's affection and the fear of unrequited admiration

Otis Phillips Lord, an elderly judge on the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court from Salem, in 1872 or 1873 became an acquaintance of Dickinson's. After the death of Lord's wife in 1877, his friendship with Dickinson probably became a late-life romance, though as their letters were destroyed, this is surmise.

It would seem possible that Emily Dickinson perhaps had a few questionable relationships, given the time .

Emily never accepted Christianity the way it was expected of her

http://www.biographyonline.net/poets/emily_dickinson.html

Religious Belief - Emily Dickinson

Calvinist approach to religion believed that men were inherently sinful and most humans were doomed to hell. There was only a small number who would be saved, and this could only be achieved by the adherent proclaiming his faith in Jesus Christ, as the true Saviour. There was subtle, but concerted effort, to encourage people to declare themselves saved. Both, at school and at college, there would have been much of this subtle pressure put on Emily to join the “saved”; but this she never did. Her father was not too concerned with the religious views of his children even though, later in his life, he also accepted this belief. Thus, on the crucial issue of the day Emily was relatively isolated. Amongst other reasons, Emily could never accept the doctrine of “original sin”. Despite remaining true to her own convictions, Emily was left with a sense of exclusion from the established religion, and these sentiments inform much of her poetry. There is frequent reference to “being shut out of heaven”. Yet despite this rejection of the orthodox religion, there is much in her poetry which reveals a profoundly religious temperament.

Perhaps Emily also suffered an unloving childhood such as Bakker often described

http://www.answers.com/topic/emily-dickinson

Her reclusiveness has been variously explained--a frustrated love affair, a tyrannical father, an inadequate mother, religious perplexities, failure to publish, the limits imposed upon women in her time. But, as with the attempts to categorize her poetry--is she a transcendentalist? a mystic? a romantic? a metaphysical? a meditative? was she pessimistic? optimistic? a believer? a disbeliever?--no single theory is adequate. Her range is wide, her "voices" many; her heights are high, her depths deep.

I think that perhaps Bradwen turned the portrait of Emily Dickinson to the wall and did not like the Portrait of her is because he believed that the real Emily Dickinison was a bad influence on Emilie aka Agnes. What do you think?

I really am about to go but am catching up over my breakfast and couldn't resist posting some final thoughts!

25: Yes, I reluctantly concede that the uncle was a bit of a red herring. I think it was an example of Bakker getting us to challenge our assumptions.

The reason I was reluctant to give up on the theory of the uncle as abuser was because I was hoping it might eventually explain Emelie's sexuality which has a sole focus on the young and the physical in a way that I have commonly seen in men but not in women. I found the interview with Bakker interesting where he (more or less) said he put himself in Emelie's shoes to become her when he wrote about her and I think it is the part of Bakker which is unmistakenly male, in Emelie which I had problems accepting! It didn't occur to me to feel critical of Emelie at any point whilst reading the book, (though I would have been if she had had AIDS) but there were times when I found it difficult to believe in her.

However this is a personal response, not a criticism. I do have a unfortunate habit of letting one detail spoil a book for me and I am so grateful to this group for guiding me through the beauty, perception and intelligence of this book. I don't think I would have appreciated it nearly as much without you!

One more thought: What do people make of the friendship between the husband and the policeman?

I was reading backwards again and in chapter 22 and I noticed this when reading about the uncle:

"And always putting funny ideas in her head. He used to say funny things to her ..

" What kinds of things?"

"That she had to be able to do things on her herself. That when it came down to it, people are always alone. That you should never let other people tell you what to do.

"That's no so bad is it?"

" No, but she took it straight to heart , she upped and left"

I thought that the idea that when it comes down to it, we are always alone, fit into Bakker's belief of isolation , and apparently Emily's. Perhaps the only real relationships Emily was able to form was with younger men , in an affair ? Even as she is dying, she more or less forces Bradwen to have intercourse with her Chapter 57.

It does not seem that Emily was able to form much of a close relationship with her parents, nor her husband, nor anyone really. Bradwen was the first person she encountered that was willing to things to help her - in the garden, making meals - her first experience perhaps of not being alone.

I agree, Bradwen is an angel figure, or figure of hope.

What do you make of the fact that Bradwens' mother died of circumstances that we never know of?

Chapter 23 - Emilie is at the Bakery and about Rys Jones - and the Baker's wife says

" His wife died ," Awen continued, " All very tragic and if she was alive she would never let him eat so much cake".
But we never know what Rhys Jones wife died of, but we do know that the late Mrs Evan's was friends with Rhys Jones wife.

I find that a bit mysterious. Did Mrs Rhys Jones die of suicide?

Dee - One more thought: What do people make of the friendship between the husband and the policeman?

That is a puzzle. From reading , its clear that the policeman is gay -but also married with children. I don't think that the husband wants a relationship with him , other than for the policeman to help him find his wife.

Chapter 59, The policeman is driving and says

"It's so lonely"

" And living with you wasn't" - policeman speaking

"What's that supposed to mean"

The policeman took one hand off the wheel and laid it on the husbands leg.
He didn't move it away because the policeman was driving.

That is a puzzle to me. It sounds like the policeman is gay, but the husband is not -but maybe the husband is in denial?

Just a couple of pages prior to that the mother in law says on the phone" The flesh is weak"

The policeman glanced at him " Can't argue with that"

I'm not sure what to make of that .

A physical relationship is one way to push against isolation, whether it's a relationship that you want or not?

Sorry I was so long in replying, Dee, I had to look up a bunch of stuff in the book

I also must go to bed! What do you make of the fact that the husband is suddenly on crutches once he finds out that his wife is sick? Is this a feeling that they share between husband and wife?

Thanks so much to everyone for their input.

I've still got more questions, but they will have to wait until tomorrow.

Thanks so much to all of you for your wonderful insight - keep it coming!

#27: Thanks Deb for your info on Dickinson - good points there to ponder upon.

I tried to confer with Roger Lundin's The Art of Belief about Sue - and he writes several pages about their relationship. According to Lundin Dickinson had a very strong affection for Sue, it became an obsession for Emily and her letters to Sue are brimming with love-language, although Lundin doesn't conclude that it turned into something other than a platonic love.

Dickinson's faith is a complex thing - but she was certainly not orthodox in her faith. Here's a Lundin quote I love - Think about Rhys and Brandwen here :)

"If God the Father was often her foe, then God the Son was her trustworthy friend.....The depth of Jesus' passion and the breadth of his empathy drew the poet of Amherst to this "man of sorrows".

---

What I wrote about Emily serving as a contrast to Emilie is to simple. I think that there's both contrasts and similarities here.

I sensed that Emilie has a conflict-ridden relationship toward Dickinson. Love-hate? And Bakker uses it to confront Emilie with her situation and decisions.

She touches the portrait, the poem-book shifts between being open and closed - but often she does not read in it - affection and yet cautious - and at one point there's this scene where she describes Dickinson's double-standard:

"A puling (?) woman who hid herself away in her house and garden, wordlessly insisting that...people should just ignore her, yet fishing for validation like a whimpering child, scared to death that the affection she showed others, mostly in letters, would remain unanswered. A bird of a woman who made herself small......A woman who took to wearing the white of a virgin. Only now did she realise that it had been this anger that had motivated her to write a thesis, subjecting what she saw as the many overrated poems to a critical investigation. Almost as a day of reckoning. "Not good," she said softly. "Not good at all".

Why this reaction, I wonder? Did Emilie see something in Dickinson that reminded her of herself - that they both made controversial choices, that was not accepted by society? Was it the seclusion, the double-standard, what? Or did she turn against Emily because her "hero" was not so heroic - was false - only pretended to be a virgin?

----

About the portrait Bradwen turns around. Good point. Makes sense.

More great stuff! Thanks, everyone. As all of you have said, my understanding and appreciation of The Detour is increased many-fold by our discussion. A few more cents:

-Bradwen is definitely real; I'm not sure about the "angel" symbolism, but he certainly challenges Emilie's choices, I think - both her choice to die rather than accept treatment, and her attraction to young men; furthermore, I think part of Bakker's intention with Bradwen is to have his readers challenge their perceptions of Emilie: do we judge, despise, relate to ... honestly, the more I read of Bakker, I think his mission is to ENGAGE AND CHALLENGE his readers about their own perceptions and attitudes

-as to Bradwen turning the portrait of Dickinson around, perhaps it simply signifies the polar opposites which Bradwen/Dickinson represent for Emilie; Bradwen is with her in the present to offer love and support; Dickinson is a lifelong academic pursuit, and her work represents the opposite of love and comfort for Emilie

-the husband/policeman and the sexual references: again, I think this is Bakker engaging and challenging his readers on subjects which are difficult or controversial; I don't think it matters to the novel whether the husband/cop are gay or not, Bakker's purpose is to force us to take stock of our attitudes, beliefs, perceptions; the more I think about it, it's BRILLIANT!

Off to work, groan, just when I'm having so much fun here!

Hi Nancy! Just off hand, as far as Bradwen and his father go - why do think that the baker's wife mentions that Mrs Rhys Jones died in some tragic way and somewhere further along Emilie asks Bradwen if he has a mother and father - and he kind of hesitates and then replies that his mother is dead.

Also, why does Emilie see a glimmer in Bradwen's eye that causes her not to be able to look at him straight in the eye? I'm wondering if he's real but also a ? metaphor for some sort of angel or hope figure. Chapter 54

- Emilie says - Your father wanted to tell me how she met her end" Mrs Evans, that is

-" Yeah"

-But I did not want to listen

further on the page

" I found her" he said

"You?"

"Did my father say otherwise"

She thought about it." He acted as if he knew all about it"

"That's true. I arranged it so he'd find her after me. I owed him that much . ( not sure why he feels that way - his mother died in childbirth?

Then he talks about seeing seeing Mrs Evans dead

that same chapter - Bradwen says he went to Hope University in Liverpool

Chapter 60 after Emilies death he either remembers back to shortly before Emilies death and thinks

"She was indescribably beautiful"..Awesomely beautiful, like a tree of bush that produces as much blossom or as many flowers as possible the year before it dies.

etc

He thinks of the three dead women :two here, one in bed in the house in Llanberis. Just before died she said one last thing. He could barely make it out, he a was so distracted by his mother's beauty at that moment. "Go " she'd said .....He closed her eyes

Further on in the paragraph where Emilie lies dead " Very soft music and the murmur of the stream. He smiles.

etc. He puts the Wind in the Willow in his ruck sack - eventually he walks on etc " He starts whistlying softly.

What do you make of that ? He seems somewhat surreal.. There are a few more things in that paragraph.

I'm just not sure what to make of Bradwen - and his wandering ways, and being around death so often.

Let me know what you think.

Later! :)

I agree about the policeman and husband - just to engage us, and I suspect Bakker just throws that in there.

Deb, I'm WAY behind all of the questions you've posted in this last post. Think I'm still only about Ch 35-40? (not at home right now, so can't check my book). But you're making some very intersting observations about the "angel" or ethereal nature of Bradwen. Will have to let you know.

However, I have read the part where Emilie is unable to look Bradwen full in the eye. My initial response: she is making a connection with him right before she knows she will die, so she is hesitating to allow the connection to become too intimate? (and I don't mean sexually, but rather of the "into me see" variety); and/or Bradwen's preseence is prompting her to review her life, her choices, and her experiences, and there is (understandably) discomfort in this, given that she is not long for this world.

I'm reading very backwards by following the observations of all of you who've completed the book (my own nosy fault!). I need to finish to book and let it sit for a bit, and then I'll be able to answer more coherently (I hope!).

Great questions, btw!

Keen observations, Nancy.

Bakker's mission is indeed to ENGAGE AND CHALLENGE his readers about their own perceptions and attitudes.

Just look what he have done to this thread :)

I like the idea of Bradwen being there - presence - and Dickinson representing something almost opposite - seclusion, detachment, like you said her academic work.

I have no idea about the husband and the policeman and their teaming up to find Emilie. It wasn't very convincing to me - more like a bit of comic relief so we were ready to pick up the story of Emilie again.

I've got more to add re :Bradwen, but for now, I'm to go wrap myself up in a bunch of blankets and maybe watch tv or have a nap. I think I've got one of those summer/spring colds. I ache all over and I feel really tired. I'll be back a little later.

Everyone - great observations. As you say Carsten - look how Bakker has us going!

Nancy, we enjoy having you here nosing your way! It's a little like having your own Spark's notes!:) Heee! We'd miss you otherwise :)

Take care, Deb....

Carsten, I took a couple of aspirin and slept for most of the evening, thank you!

I have few more questions/ ideas - of course I've even got more than I will list here!

I'm still stuck on Bradwen being? real but also a metaphor for hope - or something.

I listed several above, but I've a got a few more

Chapter 25 - and this is off my topic - why do you think that Emilie put out a WELCOME mat? She purchase it, and one could purchase just a straw mat for one's front door - why did the purchase a WELCOME MAT? Maybe it's nothing, but it is on all caps and seems to go against her wish to stay in solitude.

okay, back on topic

Bradwen just seems a perplexing fellow. Remember above when I said he told Emily that he had studied at Hope University in Liverpool?

Then further back in chapter 29 he says

" I've got all of the time in the world"

"Why is that?

" I dropped out of uni . I couldn't be bothered with it anymore." ......

"What were you studying?

" I've forgotten. It was boring."

Later in the chapter he tells her " Not that you can say no anyway" - in reference to foot path that he took which is a public footpath.

Then I mentioned earlier , Bradwen is always wearing socks that have a L and R on them - for Left and Right. Remember the T intersection earlier on? Chpater 34 His were hiking socks, blue and grey , the kind with an L and a R.

Chapter 36 She couldn't look straight into his eyes, , she could never look into both of his eyes, she always has to chose left or right.

I think in a sense Bradwen represents " choice" / hope / kindness. She is at the T - intersection - and he has socks which indicate L or R.

Chapter 37 -

"I'm stayng'

"We'll see"

"The gardens no where near finished and I assume you want it finished by a certain date?"

"What makes you assume that "

"It's just a feeling"

Just before that she has told him that he had to go - and he refused.

Later in the chapter

"Do you have a mother and father?"

He hesitated . " Of course"

..."Don't you need to call them?"

"I'm here now"

later on there is mention again of the socks with the L and R.

later on in the chapter

Emilies says

" Don't you have to contiue with your path?"

..." Not now" " I've got other things to worry about"

"Such as ?"

"Rose beds . A Christmas tree." - both things to help Emily feel hope and less isolation - I think.

Once again his socks are mentioned

Today the L and R socks were red and blue.

and once again in that chapter,

Behind the divan was a pile of clothes ;jean, L and R socks , a T-shirt

I think that there has to be some significance to the many references to the R and L socks -and really, who wears L and R socks?

He seems to really want to stay with her and do as she bids .

Later in the chapter when more or less she encourages him to have intercourse with her Emilie thinks" that his lambs body would feel hers and merge with it.

Bradwen seems to want to be with her -and do her bidding until she is insistant that she wants to go to the top of the mountain - Yr Wydddfa - which apparently means Burial Place, according to Bradwen - he seems to distance himself from Emilie

"Why didn't the boy look back after even once.?"..." Why is the boy so keen to get away from me." He more or less stays away from here - though he stays with her overall.

I think maybe that is because Bradwen realizes she will not change her mind about dying - or maybe he is uncorfortable about having intercourse with her the previous night?

At any rate, Bradwen seems an enigmatic fellow.

The last few paragraphs of the book are puzzling to me too .

But, as Carsten say, Bakker wants to make us think.

I also wonder why the policeman keeps empahizing that " just try to make a U -turn" while he and the husband are driving on the way to find Emilie. Perhaps the policeman is suggesting that you cannot easily change your mind/ path/ ?

Questions, questions!

Thanks you guys! I'd be lost without your iinput!

Long post, sorry!

Dickinson's faith is a complex thing - but she was certainly not orthodox in her faith. Here's a Lundin quote I love - Think about Rhys and Brandwen here :)

"If God the Father was often her foe, then God the Son was her trustworthy friend.....The depth of Jesus' passion and the breadth of his empathy drew the poet of Amherst to this "man of sorrows".

Interesting post, Carsten, among your many others. Even if Bakker is not religious, he may acknowlege Emily Dickinson's beliefs.

Perhaps Bradwen is both real and more than real? Same with Rhys, the father? I don't know.

And why did she cut her hair and hate it so much she could not look at herself when the hairdresser was cutting her hair?

Almost finished! I'll wrap up later today or this evening. Some more notes:

-the L/R socks, the detour, the U-turn, I think all of these relate to the crossroads, the decisions, the "detours" we choose in our own lives, just as Emilie has done here; e.g. she could take medical treatment, but makes another decision; she could have continued to teach at the university and not get involved with a student, but she made a different decision; she could have told her husband about her illness, and stayed with him, but she made a different decision; life decisions force us to take a DIRECTION (hence, L/R, around, U-turn, detour)

-WELCOME mat does not have to signify that Emilie is inviting others into her solitude; she could be welcoming herself into the “detour” she has taken, i.e. the decision she has made to live out her remaining time and ultimately die at the rural Wales farmhouse

-Bradwen: his not wanting to look back at Emilie when they go to climb the mountain (“Burial Place”) could signify discomfort; remember he is a young man witnessing Emilie’s, a middle aged woman, deeply personal decisions; her decisions are sophisticated (in terms of age/wisdom), very complex, and I think very mature; Bradwen cannot possibly understand – he may support, but he cannot understand, given his young age; I don’t think his decision to continue to the top of the mountain signifies he is turning his back on Emilie; he is youthful exuberance – he chooses to climb as Emilie rests; as to her inner question as to why he doesn’t look back at her – I think this is simply a moment of insecurity

-#34 re Bradwen’s whistling: I came across a passage last night where Emilie heard his whistling and wondered about it – Bakker reveals Bradwen had forgotten the dog was not there (after Rhys Jones has taken Sam); I think that’s all there is to the whistling – Bradwen misses his companion and forgets that Sam is no longer with him

-#34 I maintain Bradwen is real, but I certainly see what you mean, Deb, about his seeming somewhat surreal; his wandering ways and his being around death so often – I tend to interpret this as youth being a necessary part of death in that youth replaces death; Bradwen sees Emilie’s body and she is so “beautiful” … then he carries on with The Wind in the Willow, whistling – so I’m reading this as Bradwen’s youth carries on after Emilie’s death; Bradwen, as he grows older, will make his own detours and u-turns

Have to say again that I think Bakker’s mission is to ENGAGE AND CHALLENGE us about our own perceptions and attitudes. He forces us to take stock of our attitudes, beliefs, perceptions; and he is BRILLIANT at it. As Carsten said, just look at our thread!!

Deb, forgot to add that I hope you are feeling LOTS better!

Finished! Aha moment for me: Bradwen was only at the farmhouse because he had also taken a wrong turn, a detour; he was on the wrong side of the mountain. All of the characters in the book, save Emilie's parents, have taken a detour.

Fantastic read, everyone!

I can certainly see why you see Bradwen as real, Nancy, but I still think he is both real and perhaps a metaphor for hope or something. He found his mother beautiful too when he saw her die. He got to Mrs Evan's first after she died - the least he could do for his father.

That seems to suggest that for such a young age he has seen a lot of death and almost thinks it is beautiful.

Then there was one more thing that I read last night... Just let me find it.

Chapter 43 Shirley , the doctor, the man opposite her, the baker and his wife; everyone knew each other. Except Bradwen. He was the only one who did not fit in.

So, I'm not sure. Could he be real and not - like ? err magical realism but not exactly? Just those L and R socks -who wear those except someone weird! :)

I think that you are correct though - that Bakker sets out to engage. I guess we bring out own baggage/ preconceived notions to virtually every story that we read. A lot of the material in the book seems kind of surreal - or hallucinatory to me. The way they use the boy, the father, the husband, the strange small town, the strange relationship if there is one between the policeman and the husband. Why would a policeman accompany the husband to search for his wife? The Twin read like a real grounded story to me -this one reads differently to me - all a bit off .

On a personal level , the choice not to pursue treatment for cancer or some aggressive disease seems real enough to me. I know of two people - one of whom elected to have no treatment for breast cancer and shortly after diagnosis went to a hospice. I'm not sure why she made that choice. Another friend of mine took chemo for ovarian cancer - but after 6 months in , she was so ill with the chemo she elected to not take any more and passed away some months later. My own dad, when he was diagnosed with a very aggressive form of cancer that gave him about 26 more months of life in average - well, I told him whatever he chose - to take chemo or not, we would support him. He took every form of chemo available to him - every treatment, but yet he still passed away 26 months after the diagnosis.

So , the most real part of the book to me is that one might opt not to take treatment for cancer.

But we don't need to agree either. It's just such a strangely told tale, with strange details.

Still feeling very weary! But thanks for asking. I've got a very sore throat etc.

Bakker is brilliant as you say. And without you and Dee and Carsten and Joey I would be just lost trying to interpret this novel!!!

"Talk to you all later in the day." :)

Some other good points and observations to consider, Deb and Nancy!

Hey, Deb, I have a pair of L and R socks :) And I'm not weird......ahem, well, come to think of it......

They are shaped differently so they fit your L and R-foot better.....useful if you are hiking a lot (although maybe a little nerdy)

Good point with the WELCOME mat. Hadn't noticed.

Again I see the ambiguity in it. She wants to retreat from the world, yet WELCOMES it - maybe subconsciously she want someone there - maybe even a jest from Mr. Bakker. It is also Emilie herself that invites Bradwen to stay, as I remember it, although she's not completely happy about it.

I think Bakker likes the ambiguity or conflicting images maybe pointing in different directions.

I also think Bakker is very conscious about the mood/feeling he wants to create in the novel - as he starting point is the poem "Amble makes this bed" maybe he wants to create thet feeling of that poem or Dickinson's poetry - the unstated in Emilies and Bradwens relationship, the blurring of the mind with the pills, in and out of dreams/consciousness, sleeping/waking up - all of this creates the mystery and surreal of things around her, people, nature, sound.

I like this review which also show another cover of the novel:

http://www.theblurb.com.au/Issue136/Detour_BK.html

Now you are with us 100 percent, Nancy. There was a lot of aha moments along the way in this novel. I agree, fantastic read!

Sorry to hear you haven't shaken off your cold, Deb. Hope you get better, soon.

Ha ha, Carsten, about the L and R socks!!! What do I know! :) Bakker just menitioned so often I think he meant something by it.

I was thinking maybe Emilie put out the WELCOME mat maybe because she meant - WELCOME death. Maybe she was ready to die?

I agree, Carsten and Nancy, I think Bakker likes to create some sort of ambiguity . I agree, there is a real surreal feeling about the novel

And Bradwen spending his time swinging from one mountain to another - that's kinda weird.........Yes, Carsten you make a good point about the pills making things really blurred. All of the characters were not really filled out - just kind of sketched - a bit cardboard I think. Maybe Bakker wants us to fill in the blanks for ourselves, depending out what we bring to the novel itself. I'm just going to look at your link, Carsten.

Great review that you linked up, Carsten and I think that cover more accurately depicts the novel. There is definitely a hallucinatory quality about the novel . I'm going to back and re - read the review. I saw one too that I thought was helpful - I'll try to look for it.

Here is just one of many reviews that I think help summarize some of my feelings towards the novel

http://www.spectator.co.uk/books/7713433/enigma-variations.thtml

This is a novel full of hints and mysteries.

But the geese on the farm are disappearing one by one in a sinister — perhaps metaphorical — fashion; and on a solitary walk she has an encounter with a badger who bites her foot, necessitating a consultation with a local GP, whose medical ethics would certainly arouse the disapproval of the General Medical Council.

There is an element of fairy tale or myth about the characters. The woman is mostly referred to as ‘she’ and although introducing herself to Bradwen as Emilie, it is only much later that we discover her real name. Her family are rather archetypically known for most of the book as ‘the husband’, ‘the father’ and ‘the mother’, and Branwen becomes ‘the boy’. The boy finally packs his bags and resumes his map-making: ‘Sometimes a day’s work is for nothing, because it leads nowhere.’

Just a few excerpts there. Oh! Bradwen is a map maker! I had not caught onto that.

Here is one more review, where the author of the blog compares Bakker to the English writer to Magnus Miller - I'll have to look him up..

http://winstonsdad.wordpress.com/2012/02/14/the-detour-by-gerbrand-bakker/

Anyway, over all a most interesting read and without all of you, I would have been a bit lost!

Please feel free to add more thoughts/questions. I'll be checking each day for a while yet.

Dee is not yet back from her time away.

I'm still not feeling up to snuff -but I should in a few days, I hope. Maybe tomorrow?

Deb and Carsten, both of the reviews you've linked to are excellent (I've read the first two, but not yet the third). Laughed at this cheeky line from the second one: She is a chain smoker, and her habit of taking all her clothes off is surely unwise in Wales in November. The reviewer does have a point there, LOL. I also very much like the cover shown on the review Carsten has linked to; wonder what country(ies) gets that cover?

Ha, ha...naked in november...not very wise. She also writes: There is an element of fairy tale or myth about the characters. We're not the only ones having that feeling......