Just beginning

My nephew and I just started (re)learning ancient Greek. We both had 5 years of it at secundary school, but I at least have to dig deep to find what is still there of grammar (a bit) and vocabulary (hardly anything). We use Beginning Greek with Homer by Frank Beetham. Our goal is to read Homer, Herodotus, the New Testament, the tragedies... Oh well, everything actually. Wish us luck!

I will be starting ancient Greek this fall, both for Greek mythology and later forays into the New Testament. I'll be taking the classes at Santa Clara University. Unless I can't stand it I'll be minoring in Greek. :)

I wish this group had more activity. It would encourage more reading in the language - even better, we might try to write some comments in Greek.

Composing in Greek would be extremely helpful. Most Greek text books I have only teach reading, no speaking and very little composition, if any.

Composing in ancient Greek would be great, but is beyond me at this moment. Maybe later.

What are you reading in Greek now, Richard (if I may call you so)?

All that I have read in any significant amount is the NT. I have other Greek textbooks and other Greek writing - but I have never sustained an effort to read anything other than the NT. Perhaps some budding enthusiasm in this group would be the encouragement I need?

My Greek course for the fall uses Cynthia Shelmerdine's Introduction to Greek. Anyone here have experience with that text?

I've studied Biblical Hebrew, and I survived that unscathed, so I'm not too scared.

I read somewhere that the ratio of Greek professors to Greek texts is close to 1:1. I have several textbooks, but neither of the two listed in this thread.

My favorite is the text by Crosby and Schaeffer. It is older, but I think it is the best I have studied.

> 7

Richard, do you know of any good books I should read alongside a Greek textbook and class to get me started? Something like Robert Chisholm's book From Exegesis to Exposition, but for Greek instead of Hebrew.

My school doesn't teach NT Greek right off the bat, instead gets you into ancient Greek then has an upper-division class on the NT and its Greek.

LBT,

My recommendation is to find a book to practice composition. North and Hillard is a good book to consider, especially if you Greek professor can guide and evaluate your composition.

If you do work on composition, start a thread here. I would like to practice with you.

Look this over.

http://www.textkit.com/learn/ID/51/author_id/11/

Composition and speaking will help more that anything. I am self taught and have no one to work with. It is not the best way to do this.

Look these over.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrnteRS89tU&feature=plcp

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/

http://sxole.com/ a Greek writing community - members include many top Greek scholars.

I need myself to get back active in these.

Let me know what you do.

Does anyone knwo how to type ancient Greek on i-pad or PC? I can use a modern Greek keyboard on both but it lacks the accents and the spiritus lenis and asper.

> 9

That looks great! I bookmarked the ibiblio site. I'll be visiting there once my class has started.

I'm especially hoping to get into NT Greek once I have some of the basic grammar down. I'm minoring in Greek at my school, which basically means three quarters of language than 5-6 upper-division reading courses. But it's under Classics. So most of it will be Homer, Sophocles, etc., which is great, but not NT. My school encourages independent study so it might be possible to do more NT.

Have you used any of the Bryn Mawr Greek commentaries? They have guided readings directed for Greek undergrad students of Acts, 1 Corinthians, and Romans.

.I have not heard of the Brn Mawr Greek commentaries, but there are numerous NT helps. I think NT is better supported than any of the classics, and I think easier to read both because of the simpler writing and because of general familiarity with the text.

I will join in any reading you do, if I have or can access the text.

>10 BartGr.: I do not have a Greek font for PC or for iPad that has accents.

> 12

I would love to read together. I have actually been toying with the idea of a group read. Perhaps a Gospel Talk group read of a Biblical Studies work. If you are up for it I am down. (Mixing metaphors - bad writing form!)

The Bryn Mawr commentaries are supposed to be good, but they're geared toward classics rather than Biblical studies. Hence their having so few commentaries on NT texts. However, my understanding is that the NT is rather coarse Greek compared to the great "classics" such as Homer and Hesiod. Does that mean the NT is an easier read?

Limited vocabulary, more narrative, less poetry, easier concepts, and as I mentioned - you cannot ignore the assist from greater familiarity with the English translations. (Unless you are fluent with Homer and Hesiod in translation).

We can certainly read the NTG as a group read, say on Gospeltalk. I would live to read Homer in Greek on Learning Greek. There are some graded Homer readers out there. I just do not have one.

As far as a group read of biblical studies work (a commentary?), I would probably not be interested. But if you wanted to read a text - either a NT gospel or letter, or even a writing from an early father. Maybe the Didache?

I would also be interested in reading some of the Intertestament writings or the Dead Sea Scrolls.

BartG,

The JACT Reading Greek and the Athenaze texts are good. I have copies of older versions of both. I do not have the Beetham book.

I still like Crosby book linked in the Touchstones.

Have you started the studies yet?

Yes, we did. Tomorrow evening is our second session. We meet once a week and go together through the above mentioned Beginning Greek with Homer. Between meetings and as 'housework' we prepare grammar and vocabulary. Apart form the Frank Beetham book (which focusses on Odessey V) we use a variety of material (commentaries/ grammar books) in Dutch.

As said, we both have a reasonably solid base to build on so I hope that we can get to the real fun (i.e. translating) quickly. At that stage (I guess in two months or so) I would most certainly join a group read of Homer.

What about something from these choices.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?_encoding=UTF8&sort=relevancera...

I thought though I had seen some graded Homer books on Amazon.

> 14

Any of those would be fine as a group read. I'd prefer the Didache simply because I haven't read it before. Any NT text would be great too, though perhaps we should start with something short.

I remember when I was taking my Catholic scripture classes, the older students in the class (I was the only one under 40) remarked on how much deeper their experience of the Gospels was reading the whole thing rather than hearing bits and pieces in the lectionary over the years. So the lectionary is great, but I'd also like to read a whole book.

Would you prefer to start or would you prefer I did it?

Have you looked at the topic in Christianity called Corinthians Correspondence?

Looks good. I'll get to it soon. Reading this stuff in a group really helps me get it. :)

And if I'm not wiped out by that, I'll get to the didache.

>17 richardbsmith: very nice! This serie by Steadman looks promising. I hope he continues to expand it to cover the entire Odyssey and Herodotus as well. Would you be interested in reading a specific section of the Iliad or Odessey?

The Steadman books look affordable and seem to be highly rated. I have no idea about the coverage for the entire Odyssey. Maybe we can get sufficient exposure to the grammar and vocabulary to read more.

I think we just jump in somewhere, and the Steadman selection seems like as good as any.

I may go ahead an order one of the Steadman volumes and get a head start on you.

That's fine with me. Let me know which Steadman you pick to begin with. Hopefully others will chime in; the more the merrier.

Richard, I agree that it would be great to have a go at some Greek sentences. There are some in Reading Greek if anyone is familiar with it, and I have just done a winter school in koine Greek with many examples of sentences which we attempted to put into Greek. However I'm unsure how to do posts to this group in Greek script. Does anyone have any ideas?

Examples of sentences we translated:

You were powerful apostles but He was the Son of God.

Were you baptizing according to the authority of the Scriptures?

ητε αποστολοι δυναμεις, αλλα αυτος ην ο υιος του
θεου.

ητε βαπτιζων κατα την εχουσιαν των γραφων;

I added Hebrew and Greek from the control panel.
Control Panel
Clock, Region, Language
Change Keyboard or Other Input Method
Keyboard and Languages
Change Keyboard
Add (language)

The language selection option shows on my tool bar, and I can easily switch between them. Then it is only a matter of learning the keyboard.

I have not found any of the accent marks though.

Reading Greek

I had a couple of slight differences but they may contain inaccuracies;

ητε οι δυνατοι αποστολοι αλλα ην ο υιοσ του θεου

εβαπτιζετε κατα την εξουσιαν των γραφων;

(with the second one we'd just been doing the imperfect tense).

Thanks for the script instructions - quick and easy.

φιλω μαλλον τας σας προτασας.

ποιησατε ευ.

Here is another possible text to start with Homer.

http://www.bolchazy.com/prod.php?cat=greek&id=7206

I found a Homeric Greek text, Homeric Greek, and have started going through it. I have been reviewing my Crosby and Schaeffer text. I think I will work on both simultaneously - they each have good readings and helpful English to Greek translation exercises.

I have been through the Crosby and Schaeffer text book a couple times, so it will be good to have new exercises along with better exposure to Homeric Greek.

Interesting. We've progressed to the point that we're beginning to read and translate the first lines of Odyssey 6. It's hard work till now (lots of grammar and vocabulary) but fun.

Homeric Greek uses passages from the the Iliad. Best I can tell, all the readings are from the Iliad.

Keep posting progress updates. Maybe we can encourage each other.

More heavily annotated Greek texts (similar as the books edited by Steadman) for intermediate level readers

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?_encoding=UTF8&field-author=Ste...

Good material there.

I do think though we should start with reading Homer. I have not ordered anything on Steadman yet, but I am working some on the Homeric Greek by Clyde Pharr. It is very good, I think. Very similar approach to the Crosby-Schaeffer Introduction to Greek text that is my favorite for Attic/Koine Greek.

I found this pdf download of the Clyde Pharr Homeric text. Even if you are using something else, this is a must have text, especially when it is free. :)

http://www.textkit.com/learn/ID/165/author_id/81/

This is a good text book with 135 page of excellent grammar notes in the back of the text.

ETA
This textkit site has many resources. For composition, here is the download link for the Hillard and North book I mentioned above. A free download.

http://www.textkit.com/learn/ID/51/author_id/11/

I have reached chapter 14 of Homeric Greek. There are some distinct differences from Koine Greek for sure. But chapters 13 and 14 start the readings in the Iliad. Chapter 14 introduces the Greek Hexameter.

The requirement is to mark the qualities of each syllable (long,short), memorize the assigned lines, and be able to recite rhythmically with ease - before moving on to the next chapter.

I guess I am to be able to hear the rhythms and sounds of the poetry in the verse. I may be on chapter 14 for awhile.

Richardbsmith -

Continuing from 11 and 12 - my Bryn Mawr commentary on 1 Corinthians arrived in the mail. It's annotated by Philip B. Harner, who according to LT has several books written on the Bible.

It's actually a disappointment. I was hoping for a text of 1 Corinthians with running commentary on linguistically difficult passages and explanation of specific idioms and non-literal meanings that one couldn't pick up with only a dictionary. Instead it doesn't even have the text of the letter, just goes verse-by-verse listing words and phrases and what they mean. I would have wished for more sentence-level syntactical commentary rather than just semantic. Definitely not worth my $5 - hell, it's not even a book, it's a 20-page pamphlet.

On the flip side, the SBL edition of the Greek NT is either free or really cheap ($1-2) in the Kindle store, if you want a portable copy of that.

There is not much anywhere in the way of line by line commentary. I do like to refer to Robertson's Word Pictures, which can be purchased or better for me, accessed on line.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/

Thanks for the links to Pharr's book, Richard. His treatment of the hexameter is more extensive than what Beetham has to offer and I will make use of it.

As said we have begun translating book V (not VI) of the Odessey. This is one of the main advantages of Beetham's Beginning Greek with Homer that he has us actually reading Homer after only 7 lessons of the 25 or 45 pages into the course. The pace of the course is high, his treatment of the Homeric gammar complete but succinct. It is I believe an excellent course for someone already familiar with the basics, maybe less so if one wants to learn the language from scratch. A more leisurely approach with more excercises might be better suited in that case. Another attractive feature is that it offers an answer key which lacks in the Pharr book so far as I can see. However the book has some problems: the main one, apart from some typographic mistakes, is that the font used for the main text is small and that for the many explanatory notes even smaller, which makes the book feel 'cramped'(if that is the word). Evenso, I'm happy with our choice for this book, but I will see if I can complement it with Pharr.

On a different note, I ordered and received Plato's Symposium from the serie by Steadman and it looks very good. Good layout, plenty of vocabulary and grammatical explanations and very reasonably priced. I'm really thinking of ordering the complete serie. Steadman has a blog where he discusses new entries: http://geoffreysteadman.com/

There is no answer key in Pharr. That lacking though is well covered because the English to Greek exercises follow closely to the Greek to English exercises. You can check your work by looking between the two. It is similar to the approach in Crosby and Schaeffer.

I am working on the rules of Homeric hexameter. The rhythms are very pronounced, and I think they will come naturally very quickly.

Did you look at the hexameter scanning example given in Pharr chapter XIV? The rules in the appendix make much more sense after some practice with the example verses.

I have not ordered anything from Steadman yet, but I am excited that we may start there soon. So far I am enthusiastic about reading (αειδων τα επεα Ελληνιστι) in Homer. The hexameter rhythms look to make it more fun, rather than more difficult.

Plato is in Attic?

Yes, Plato writes in Attic. The Symposium is high on my want to read list, but first Homer. I have not yet studied chapter XIV, hope to do so this weekend.

I am memorizing the first 5 verses of Iliad focusing on the hexameter rhythms.

I do not quite yet sound like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB91m1kqbzk

Or this either

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iASbCCHYlM

I have been working on the first 7 lines of Iliad - it is as much or more about learning the dactylic hexameter rhythm as it is learning the vocab and grammar.

I think I am starting to grasp things. I am beginning to think, or maybe to realize, to grasp this. The rhythm is in the quantity of the vowel sound, not in the accent.

Some of the short vowels are accented, which in English we feel the rhythm from the accents. And so I am tending to accent the long vowels to feel the rhythm, but that is not how I should be practicing the verses.

BartGr, when you get to practicing reading out loud, let me know if what I wrote in this comment makes any sense.

Yes, I think I have more or less the same experience. Finding the metrum and knowing which syllables are long or short isn't that difficult although I still make mistakes. However when reading out loud the hexameters it sounds sort of mechanical since I have the tendency to place excessive word stress on the first long syllable of each of the six feet instead of pronouncing the syllables actually longer or shorter as required. Perhaps when done correctly Homeric hexameters should sound less like recitation and more like singing

In the post Iliad books 6 + 22 and Odessey books 6-8 in the serie by Steadman. Either one could be our starting point. I have no preference.

My preference is the Iliad. When do you think you are ready to start? I am hoping to get a little further along in my Homeric Greek text before starting.

Maybe another month or so, but I will jump in anytime before that if you and your nephew are ready.

The Iliad is fine of course.
The two months I mentioned earlier are too optimistic. Because of other commitments we will not be able to keep up the high pace of the first month. I hope and expect to be ready by the end of october/ beginning of november.

That is probably a good time frame for me also.

I am reading every translation exercise outloud, trying to emphasize the accented syllables and stretchout the long syllables. It is changing how I pronounce the words and it does not yet feel natural. But maybe with continued practice.....

The Pharr book has the student memorize lines of the Iliad. The idea is that the meaning should be considered as the verses are repeated with correct metrics.

Thinking of the meaning of the verses has been the only way I can memorize the verses. I can read the syllables without thinking much about their meaning. And I can read the meaning of the verses silently as I translate them mentally.

Memorization though seems to be a good way to internalize the words and their meanings in Greek.

Sounds daunting, but I see his point.

I'm looking for secundary literature on the Iliad and Odyssey: literary criticism, historical background and of course the 'Homeric question'. Do you (or someone else) have suggestions?

More on reciting hexameters

http://www.aoidoi.org/articles/epic/recite.pdf

Excellent. Thanks.
You and I have not discussed the phrasing and caesuras. I have not mentioned them, because I don't understand what is being described, yet.

The hemiepes are new to me.

I will spend some time with this article over the next few days.

BTW, I have memorized to a low level of competence the first 10 lines of Iliad.

I asked the same question regarding secondary literature on the Iliad and Odessey (see #54) and got several interesting suggestions: http://www.librarything.nl/topic/141404

BartGr, I am in that group and have been following the exchange. (I also am in the Homer, Trojan War group.) Maybe we might pick up a some additional participants for our reading of the Iliad. There were some helpful comments and perhaps some interest.

ictus - the metrical weight, the slight accent on the first syllable (always long) of each foot, the slight accent that distinguishes

syllables that contain a short vowel followed by a single consonant are lenghthened under the verse ictus.

I have read some of the more detailed metric rules but they made no sense. I am trying to revisit some of them to see if I can figure out what is being said.

caesura - when a word ends within a foot

verse caesura - when a word ends within a foot and there is a pause in the verse (comma or period, I suppose)

There is almost always a caesura in the third foot

after the first syllable of the foot - masculine
between the two short syllables - feminine

diaeresis - the end of the word occurs with the end of the foot
verse diaeresis - when the word ends at the end of a foot and at a pause in the sentence

bucolic diaeresis - the most important diaeresis at the end of the fourth foot

Yes, or in other words (from Steadman Iliad 6 + 22)

Caesura: the audible pause that occurs when a word ends within a dactylic or spondaic foot

Diaeresis: the audible pause that occurs when a word ends at the end of a foot

Principal (or main) caesura: the caesura that coincides with a major pause in the sense or thought within the line (often the equivalent of a comma or period in prose). Every line has at least one principal caesura, frequently in one of the following four places

1. In third foot after the first long syllable
2. In third foot after the first short
3. In fourth foot after the first long
4. In the second foot (less frequent)

Some reflections on scansion. Homer didn't follow the rules all that well. He just composed his verses in a natural flowing rhythm. The rules were made up after the fact, two or three centuries later in Alexandria. The rhythm is six beats per line, with usually a pause (caesura) somewhere in the middle, wherever it feels comfortable. Initially, forget about the word accent, just try to get the six beats and the pause in reading the verses aloud. Fitting in the word accent will come later, of itself, and add a lot of subtlety, but first you need to get the six beat rhythm of the verses to come naturally, like waves beating on the shore. The rhythm is inexorable and will be easy to pick up. Later, studying the subtleties of the rules may be of interest, particularly for appreciating Alexandrian and Latin poetry, but note that present-day scholars sometimes analyze Homer's verse rhythms in other ways.

Do you suggest to attempt to lengthen the long syllables noticably?

I have found that, after some practice, it is not too difficult to separate the accents and the lenghthening.

I am not yet ready to go public with my hexameter rhythming though.

I wouldn't strive to prolong the pronunciation of the long syllables any more than you would reading prose. I would emphasize the verse ictus exclusively until you are comfortable with the roll and surge of the six-beat rhythm, which moves pretty rapidly, like Shakespeare's five-beat lines. When you can pick up a volume of Homer or Hesiod or Appolonius Rhodius and scan it at sight, then think about the subtle points. Just my take on it, what worked for me. Try reading Longfellow's Evangeline aloud:

This is the forest primeval, the murmuring pines and the hemlocks
Bearded with moss and with garments green, indistinct in the twilight.

It just swings along, easy to do, though the English hexameter is slower due to the consonant clusters in English. ("indistinct" trips me up because we today generally accent both the first and last syllables, whereas Longellow accented only the last syllable.)

>65 anthonywillard: I agree that the method you describe (focussing on the ictus) is the easiest way to get a feel for the dactylic hexameter, but it sounds mechanical to my ears (tá ta ta tá ta ta tá ta ta tá ta ta tá ta ta tá ta and so on, with minor variations) and in the long run I want to concentrate more on vowel length and less on stressing syllables.

We 're still progressing in Odyssey V: Kalypso gives in to Hermes and lets Odysseus go from her island. Odysseus, overjoyed, begins building a raft. Grammarwise we're in the heat of the battle, greek irregular verbs. I think it's inevitable to know more or less by heart the stem of the 100 to 150 most frequently used, including their inflexions in the different times both active, medium and passive. Lots of time goes into this. I'm much helped here by a delightfull ( as far as Greek verbs can be called delightfull) little book in French: Le verbe Grec by André Delotte. This book sparked my interest in the linguistic history of ancient Greek, of which I was told Morphologie historique du grec, again in French, by Pierre Chantraine to be a very good introduction. So far I've only read the introduction of this book, but it's fascinating stuff.

@ 66 If you have the basic ictus rhythm down so you can just pick it up and read it out, then yes, you can go on to the subtler points, which is very satisfying, though hard. What frustrates me is the theory that the different accent marks reflect different tonal values, whose interpretation is speculative.

The more stems and principal parts you can learn the better off you are as time goes by. Beyond that, memorizing the complete paradigms of irregular verbs, and so on, some people can do it and some can't. If you can do it go for it. I'm not so good at it. One thing I like about Homer is he allowed himself some latitude with grammatical forms, and I feel that allows me some latitude too, lol.

In my college days, the professor giving the Iliad tutorial one year was shocked to find that none of the seminar members could conjugate δίδωμι. The next session, his wife had baked cookies, each with one form of the conjugation iced on it. If you wanted a cookie, you had to identify the form on it. Cookies containing forms of the present indicative active went fast.

His latitude with grammatical forms (mostly dictated by metrical requirements I guess) can also be quite frustrating and complicate things. For example, he sometimes uses the aorist subjunctive with a short instead of the normal long vowel, which means that in some cases it takes exactly the same form as the futurum indicative.

That's a nice story about those grammar cookies!

My nephew will take a 2 month break from our Greek course to prepare for his final university exam. In the mean time I want to keep reading and practising, so for me this would be a good time to start our group read. If anyone is still interested of course.

I would suggest two possible options:

-Book I of the Iliad. I have an excellent commentary by Pamela Ann Draper, Iliad, book 1

-Book VI of the Iliad, using for example Homer's Iliad 6 and 22: Greek Text with Facing Vocabulary and Commentary by Geoffrey Steadman

My studies have been sidetracked by other demands. And I am beginning a Coursera study on astronomy in November.

January is a better start time for me.

I have not looked at Draper's commentary. Which do you prefer?

Difficult to say which of the two commentaries is better since I haven't really used them yet. At first sight both seem excellent.

I will start reading Iliad I by myself. In January we can start with Iliad VI.

I actually have read most of Iliad I, with the Pharr grammar text. I will read along with you, and pick up VI in January