Kung preaches revolution to end church's 'authoritarian' rule
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2lawecon
~2
I tried reading this author's work on Judaism and was singularly unimpressed. However, I understand that he has been harassed by traditionalists within the Church, so striking back does not seem unexpected.
I tried reading this author's work on Judaism and was singularly unimpressed. However, I understand that he has been harassed by traditionalists within the Church, so striking back does not seem unexpected.
3MyopicBookworm
Just found this interesting article on the kitchen table and read it over dinner. Interesting take on the collegiality of bishops: if the authorities more or less ensure that only priests who share their views are made bishops, then an entirely artificial unanimity of the hierarchy can be constructed. Bishops who do waver from the party line are marginalized.
It was also interesting that the Guardian chose to ?balance the article by including on the same page a shorter piece on the stalling of talks between the Pope and the Society of St Pius X, because the Church is insisting that Vatican II must be accepted. Of course it is: but the Pope/Vatican is in an awkward position, defending Vatican II against conservatives while trying to rein in its more progressive effects.
It was also interesting that the Guardian chose to ?balance the article by including on the same page a shorter piece on the stalling of talks between the Pope and the Society of St Pius X, because the Church is insisting that Vatican II must be accepted. Of course it is: but the Pope/Vatican is in an awkward position, defending Vatican II against conservatives while trying to rein in its more progressive effects.
4John5918
>3 MyopicBookworm: defending Vatican II against conservatives while trying to rein in its more progressive effects
It's the ultimate irony for a particular type of "conservative". They insist on obeying the official teaching of the Church to the letter, and yet Vatican II, which they abhor, is the most recent most authoritative teaching of the Church.
It's the ultimate irony for a particular type of "conservative". They insist on obeying the official teaching of the Church to the letter, and yet Vatican II, which they abhor, is the most recent most authoritative teaching of the Church.
5timspalding
Meh. I share a number of Kung's concerns, especially about the (novel) uniformity of the bishops. But his model of appropriate disagreement in the church is not a good one. It is one thing to disagree—and to insist on the normalcy of disagreement in the faithful and healthy church—and quite another to call for disruptive, ultimately schismatic change. The church needs more aggiornamento; it doesn't need a French Revolution. :)
6John5918
>5 timspalding: The church needs more aggiornamento
Agreed. But unfortunately it got very little aggiornamento after Vatican II, as the centralising authoritarian model of Church began to dig in even before the ink was dry. Changes which did take place were largely superficial. I remember about 20 years after Vatican II there was a book entitled Whatever happened to Vatican II by Michael Winter which argued persuasively that there had been no significant implementation of Vatican II at all. "Loyal dissent" will take many different forms, and Kung has certainly earned the credibility and legitimacy for his view of it to be given an airing.
Agreed. But unfortunately it got very little aggiornamento after Vatican II, as the centralising authoritarian model of Church began to dig in even before the ink was dry. Changes which did take place were largely superficial. I remember about 20 years after Vatican II there was a book entitled Whatever happened to Vatican II by Michael Winter which argued persuasively that there had been no significant implementation of Vatican II at all. "Loyal dissent" will take many different forms, and Kung has certainly earned the credibility and legitimacy for his view of it to be given an airing.
7timspalding
There are major elements of Vatican II which have been under-implemented or interpreted away, but you have to narrow your focus considerably to claim there was no significant implementation of it. I mean, for example:
1. The church carried through on liturgical reforms. The whole community takes part in a mass they can understand. We're not going back to the semi-private rite of a priest reciting words in a dead language and facing away from a congregation. Recent language changes are a -1 there, in the context of a +100.
2. The church carried through on outreach to other Christian communities, and to non-Christians. Some would want them to go far further, but the landscape is utterly different. Catholics and other christians are more often partners than enemies. And despite demerits in other areas, Pope John Paul was tireless in his efforts to mend relations with Jews.
3. Dei Verbum has had a powerful effect on Catholic appreciation of the Bible. There's a lot more to be done there, but the problem is not ideological opposition.
4. The Latinization of non-Latin Catholic churches stopped and was reversed.
5. The church moved decisively toward religious liberty and against trying to control the state.
A longer list could be made—if I had time. But it's not all bad by any means. The major demerit is surely the question of the power of bishops, but the council documents were—put simply—cagey about just what that would mean. As for topics like women priests, celibacy and homosexuality, they were either explicitly not part of the council's discussions or weren't even on the radar. One may take inspiration from the council on them, but you can't really claim they're unimplemented parts of it.
1. The church carried through on liturgical reforms. The whole community takes part in a mass they can understand. We're not going back to the semi-private rite of a priest reciting words in a dead language and facing away from a congregation. Recent language changes are a -1 there, in the context of a +100.
2. The church carried through on outreach to other Christian communities, and to non-Christians. Some would want them to go far further, but the landscape is utterly different. Catholics and other christians are more often partners than enemies. And despite demerits in other areas, Pope John Paul was tireless in his efforts to mend relations with Jews.
3. Dei Verbum has had a powerful effect on Catholic appreciation of the Bible. There's a lot more to be done there, but the problem is not ideological opposition.
4. The Latinization of non-Latin Catholic churches stopped and was reversed.
5. The church moved decisively toward religious liberty and against trying to control the state.
A longer list could be made—if I had time. But it's not all bad by any means. The major demerit is surely the question of the power of bishops, but the council documents were—put simply—cagey about just what that would mean. As for topics like women priests, celibacy and homosexuality, they were either explicitly not part of the council's discussions or weren't even on the radar. One may take inspiration from the council on them, but you can't really claim they're unimplemented parts of it.
8timspalding
Lastly, power is a slippery thing. Even if Vatican II had lead to a revolution in local councils, some sort of standing parliament-like counterweight, and in the independence of bishops, it would hardly have mattered. The most powerful lever the Pope has is the power to appoint bishops, so instead of getting our conservative line from Rome, we'd be getting it also from the pope, a standing council of bishops and local councils around the Catholic world!
This power is almost entirely about changes in government—that we no longer have kings claiming it as their right—but was explicitly endorsed by the council, who declared that the church would never again allow secular powers to interfere in the selection of bishops or the pope. It's hard to quibble with that, but that, together with the skill of Italian surgeons and the mighty power of statins, has given us a very uniform episcopal college.
This power is almost entirely about changes in government—that we no longer have kings claiming it as their right—but was explicitly endorsed by the council, who declared that the church would never again allow secular powers to interfere in the selection of bishops or the pope. It's hard to quibble with that, but that, together with the skill of Italian surgeons and the mighty power of statins, has given us a very uniform episcopal college.
9nathanielcampbell
Pope pens rare article on his inside view of Vatican II (Vatican Radio / L'Osservatore Romano)
The article prints the preface that Pope Benedict has written to accompany a volume of his previously unpublished writings from the time of the council (part of the Pope's Gesammelte Schriften being edited by Gerhard Cardinal Müller, the new head of the CDF). (I don't care how much the shipping is from Amazon.de, I will get my hands on it when it is released! Or I may just ILL it. Probably the latter. But I can hope for the former, right?)
Anyway, he reflects especially on the fact that the Declaration on Religious Liberty and Nostra Aetate were, at the council, considered two minor documents, but have come to play a central role in today's aggiornamento.
The article prints the preface that Pope Benedict has written to accompany a volume of his previously unpublished writings from the time of the council (part of the Pope's Gesammelte Schriften being edited by Gerhard Cardinal Müller, the new head of the CDF). (I don't care how much the shipping is from Amazon.de, I will get my hands on it when it is released! Or I may just ILL it. Probably the latter. But I can hope for the former, right?)
Anyway, he reflects especially on the fact that the Declaration on Religious Liberty and Nostra Aetate were, at the council, considered two minor documents, but have come to play a central role in today's aggiornamento.
10John5918
>9 nathanielcampbell: Thanks, Nathaniel. Very interesting.
12campusdan
Since when did the Catholic Tradition group become liberal catholic progressive group??? This is unsettling...I am starting to miss JKnight and that makes me feel even weirder :P
13John5918
>12 campusdan: If you look at the group introduction, it says:
I think all the threads on this group fall under that broad category, whilst representing different strands within the Catholic Tradition.
For LT'ers of any religion/denomination who love reading/collecting books on Catholicism, The Tradition, Catholic Apologetics, the Magisterium, Popes past and present, etc.
I think all the threads on this group fall under that broad category, whilst representing different strands within the Catholic Tradition.
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