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1sandstone78
It seems that in the subgenre of "dark" fantasy, there's a trend of dark, brooding, antiheroic men with troubled pasts. I'm interested in stories of equivalently dark, antiheroic, dangerous women such that:
1. Their power does not come from sexually or emotionally manipulating men, but is theirs in its own right in the form of magical or political strength, as one would expect from a comparable male character. No femmes fatale.
2. They are the main or sole POV character or driver of the action, and while they may have a foil in a more innocent and good-natured companion, they are not sharing time with an equally dark, brooding, dangerous male love interest- in fact, no romance plot at all would be ideal. I'm interested in stories where this character is in the spotlight, not one among a cast of dozens, and certainly not in opposition to a male protagonist that gets the POV.
3. They are not played as having been a normal girl "made this way" by rape or abuse nor by having "cracked" by dealing with a misogynistic society; if there is emotional baggage that is used to explain their behavior, it is similar in kind to what one would expect of a comparable male character, ie tragically dead lovers, children, or parents.
I am not particularly interested in the "grimdark" type of story a la Abercombie or Martin- more stories that are character-driven and focusing on things like intrigue rather than blood and guts. Someone more along the lines of a female Lymond.
Are there any stories like that out there? Perhaps Lane Robins' Maledicte? I thought perhaps Lynn Flewelling's Tamir triad, but that seems more like it's about dark things happening to an innocent female protagonist.
1. Their power does not come from sexually or emotionally manipulating men, but is theirs in its own right in the form of magical or political strength, as one would expect from a comparable male character. No femmes fatale.
2. They are the main or sole POV character or driver of the action, and while they may have a foil in a more innocent and good-natured companion, they are not sharing time with an equally dark, brooding, dangerous male love interest- in fact, no romance plot at all would be ideal. I'm interested in stories where this character is in the spotlight, not one among a cast of dozens, and certainly not in opposition to a male protagonist that gets the POV.
3. They are not played as having been a normal girl "made this way" by rape or abuse nor by having "cracked" by dealing with a misogynistic society; if there is emotional baggage that is used to explain their behavior, it is similar in kind to what one would expect of a comparable male character, ie tragically dead lovers, children, or parents.
I am not particularly interested in the "grimdark" type of story a la Abercombie or Martin- more stories that are character-driven and focusing on things like intrigue rather than blood and guts. Someone more along the lines of a female Lymond.
Are there any stories like that out there? Perhaps Lane Robins' Maledicte? I thought perhaps Lynn Flewelling's Tamir triad, but that seems more like it's about dark things happening to an innocent female protagonist.
2rshart3
Certainly the Kencyrath books of P.C. Hodgell, starting with God Stalk.
4sandstone78
>2 rshart3:,3 Excellent, I'll definitely check those out!
5AndreaKHost
I'd say Three Parts Dead fits that description - morally ambiguous seems to be the basis of the contractual magic system. I didn't really like the characters, and quibbled with the worldbuilding a little, but liked it enough I'll probably read the next book.
6Jarandel
The books of The Black Company in Lady's point of view.
Also, haven't read it, but Robert E. Howard's Agnes de Chastillon seems to be such a heroine, though she apparently met with so little interest that the only copy on LT is one french translation.
More about her here : http://mavericuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Agnes_de_Chastillon (avoid the part where they detail content of individual stories if you don't like spoilers).
Also, haven't read it, but Robert E. Howard's Agnes de Chastillon seems to be such a heroine, though she apparently met with so little interest that the only copy on LT is one french translation.
More about her here : http://mavericuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Agnes_de_Chastillon (avoid the part where they detail content of individual stories if you don't like spoilers).
7Billy_Wong
'Their power does not come from sexually or emotionally manipulating men, but is theirs in its own right in the form of magical or political strength, as one would expect from a comparable male character.'
What about physical strength/combat ability? No examples off the top of my head, just wondering.
What about physical strength/combat ability? No examples off the top of my head, just wondering.
8sandstone78
C.J. Cherryh's Morgaine has come to mind as another example.
>5 AndreaKHost: The cover of that one caught my eye in the store, but the summary with its emphasis on the weird! city! reminded me a bit too much of Perdido Street Station, which I failed to get into because of the way it seemed so enamored with its own weirdness and grittiness. My library has since gotten it in, though, so it may be worth a library checkout sometime. (The blurb I see now on Amazon saying the book is like Jim Butcher and Neil Gaiman meet Mieville is not doing anything to increase my interest though. :)
>6 Jarandel: How far into the series are those? I have the first book, The Black Company, but put it aside because it seemed to be fairly standard military fantasy and didn't catch my interest. Dark Agnes sounds interesting at least as a curiosity, shame the stories are unavailable now.
>7 Billy_Wong: Merely personal preference, and a little bias from stories I've read in the past- I find that stories with warrior lead characters that play with moral ambiguity tend to do so by making all of the major players amoral (usually to the detriment of women in general in the setting wrt misogyny and worse, with perhaps a single exceptional warrior female character who's "not like those stupid useless noblewomen" or what have you) and/or exploring the theme of whether or not might makes right. But sure, if you think of examples that fit the bill, do post them!
(edit- added Cherryh touchstones.)
>5 AndreaKHost: The cover of that one caught my eye in the store, but the summary with its emphasis on the weird! city! reminded me a bit too much of Perdido Street Station, which I failed to get into because of the way it seemed so enamored with its own weirdness and grittiness. My library has since gotten it in, though, so it may be worth a library checkout sometime. (The blurb I see now on Amazon saying the book is like Jim Butcher and Neil Gaiman meet Mieville is not doing anything to increase my interest though. :)
>6 Jarandel: How far into the series are those? I have the first book, The Black Company, but put it aside because it seemed to be fairly standard military fantasy and didn't catch my interest. Dark Agnes sounds interesting at least as a curiosity, shame the stories are unavailable now.
>7 Billy_Wong: Merely personal preference, and a little bias from stories I've read in the past- I find that stories with warrior lead characters that play with moral ambiguity tend to do so by making all of the major players amoral (usually to the detriment of women in general in the setting wrt misogyny and worse, with perhaps a single exceptional warrior female character who's "not like those stupid useless noblewomen" or what have you) and/or exploring the theme of whether or not might makes right. But sure, if you think of examples that fit the bill, do post them!
(edit- added Cherryh touchstones.)
9Jarandel
>8 sandstone78: Actually there's only one, Dreams of Steel, #5.
She's a major protagonist in others as well but with different narrators, and one of those may fail your requirements since he happens to be her love interest, though he's probably about as decent as one can be in that setting without dying in short order, and the whole "love" business is dealt with in few words and a rather subdued and un-romance-y manner.
She's a major protagonist in others as well but with different narrators, and one of those may fail your requirements since he happens to be her love interest, though he's probably about as decent as one can be in that setting without dying in short order, and the whole "love" business is dealt with in few words and a rather subdued and un-romance-y manner.
11kceccato
Sorcha in Philippa Ballantine's Geist is a little bit like this -- she's not amoral, but she's certainly powerful and hard-edged; she's prickly and standoffish, not the warmest character you're likely to find. But though other characters in the story frequently judge her for her proud and aloof attitude, the narrative itself seems to take her side. We're meant to admire and be interested in her even though we don't always like her. And she does have a more innocent companion.
The main problem is that she DOES have to share the stage with an equally dangerous and brooding love interest. That might be off-putting.
Another Ballantine book that might fit the description better -- I haven't read it yet, but the reviews and comments I've seen suggest it would fit -- is Hunter and Fox.
The main problem is that she DOES have to share the stage with an equally dangerous and brooding love interest. That might be off-putting.
Another Ballantine book that might fit the description better -- I haven't read it yet, but the reviews and comments I've seen suggest it would fit -- is Hunter and Fox.
12sandstone78
>9 Jarandel: I see, maybe I'll give my copy of The Black Company another try the next time it turns up when I'm sorting books.
>10 Helcura: I saw one of the Bloodsong books at my local used bookstore yesterday, but alas it was only the middle book, Death Riders of Hel. I'll keep an eye out for the others, thanks for the rec.
>11 kceccato: Geist was already in my TBR due to the female mage protagonist, but it's good to know that the narrative doesn't undermine her. Shame about the love interest, though, I'll temper my expectations in that area accordingly.
More suggestions welcome! There must be more out there, right?
>10 Helcura: I saw one of the Bloodsong books at my local used bookstore yesterday, but alas it was only the middle book, Death Riders of Hel. I'll keep an eye out for the others, thanks for the rec.
>11 kceccato: Geist was already in my TBR due to the female mage protagonist, but it's good to know that the narrative doesn't undermine her. Shame about the love interest, though, I'll temper my expectations in that area accordingly.
More suggestions welcome! There must be more out there, right?
13TKKrug
Best Served Cold by Joe Abercrombie features a female mercenary captain out for bloody revenge. Very dark book, not exactly for optimistic types who love a bright story. But she's a very strong character with a knack for politics and swordplay. Occasionally you catch a glimpse of her noble side through her bitterness, which is a refreshing change. I feel Abercrombie pulls the character off very well.
I think I'll have to pick up The Black Company too, seeing how it's gotten so much attention on this and other threads.
I think I'll have to pick up The Black Company too, seeing how it's gotten so much attention on this and other threads.
14imyril
Agreed on Best Served Cold, but Murcatto has been made what she is through loss of family and more recently the betrayal that she seeks to avenge - she's not born dark / brooding / antiheroic. Still, I thought she was very well-drawn.
15MyopicBookworm
Close to straight historical fiction, but with a magical element: you might like Mother of Kings by Poul Anderson.
16majkia
Chuck Wendig's Blackbirds
17pwaites
God's War is more science fiction, but it's protagonist, Nyx, fits this description to a T. She's a dark, bad ass anti heroine who's a former government assassin, who's carried out some morally dubious jobs.
She wasn't "made this way" by dealing with misogyny or sexual abuse (her culture is matriarchal). Actually, she clearly says in the text that her life is the result of her own choices and actions, that no one can claim responsibility for who she is but herself.
She's definitely at the center of the story, although some other characters do have POV sections, most commonly Rhys, who may be "the more innocent and good-natured companion" mentioned in point two. If there is romance in the book, there's very little and it's largely insignificant.
(Nyx is also bisexual, which I know is something else you look for.)
She wasn't "made this way" by dealing with misogyny or sexual abuse (her culture is matriarchal). Actually, she clearly says in the text that her life is the result of her own choices and actions, that no one can claim responsibility for who she is but herself.
She's definitely at the center of the story, although some other characters do have POV sections, most commonly Rhys, who may be "the more innocent and good-natured companion" mentioned in point two. If there is romance in the book, there's very little and it's largely insignificant.
(Nyx is also bisexual, which I know is something else you look for.)
18Tasula
I second God's War (am trying this touchstone thing also- God's War ).
Also, Richard K Morgan's Land Fit for Heroes Trilogy has three main characters, one of who is a very strong female (who does not have a romantic relationship with either of the others). Fascinating, excellent books, starts with The Steel Remains.
Also, Richard K Morgan's Land Fit for Heroes Trilogy has three main characters, one of who is a very strong female (who does not have a romantic relationship with either of the others). Fascinating, excellent books, starts with The Steel Remains.
20AHS-Wolfy
>19 Tasula: When you add a touchstone link it should give an others option underneath the proposed title/author that it's going to use. Pressing that will bring up a pop-up box with other options to select from if the original isn't the right work.
22david_c
If you are willing to accept tragic in place of anti-heroic, it's hard not to mention The Mists of Avalon. This is a feminist re-telling of Arthurian legend from Morgana la Fey's point of view. In order to make the "standard" Arthur story match up with that of the Mists of Avalon, many things need to go wrong.
