Paula Deen and Rappers: A Double Standard?

The next phase of fallout from Paula Deen's admissions about past racist overtones came today: Random House has pulled her next book (which was already a best-seller in pre-orders) and cancelled their five-book contract with her.

There's been a massive abandoment and general disapprobation (ranging from tsk-tsking to excoriation) of her over this, all in a fortnight's time.

Yet, the rappers who drop the N-word in every other sentence, together with any number of other obscenities; whose lyrics are overbrimming with the glorification of violence and drugs; and whose misogyny is deep-seated and disturbingly unchallenged -- they continue apace, awarded with massive album contracts rather than having them cancelled, celebrated as cultural icons and "role models" rather than shunned as violent, misogynistic thugs.

Why the double standard? Is it merely that Paula Deen is white and rappers are black?

There's no double standard. Deen's problem, despite the media focus, is not her language. It's the way she and her businesses treated their employees: http://www.atlawblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Jackson-v.-Deen-et-al.-Compl...

>2 lilithcat:: "despite the media focus"

Except that it's clearly the (social) media focus on the perceived systemic racism, and not a simple lawsuit, that's crumbled her sponsorship network in little more than a week.

Furthermore, it's the media focus and the cultural treatment that I want to discuss, not the specific legal problems. Paula Deen has quickly become a pariah -- yet any who suggest a similar treatment of rappers for their far more egregious discourses is written off as either a curmudgeon or even as a racist themselves!

Why? Why do we not only tolerate but celebrate the violence, misogyny, and obscenity of rap, on the one hand; and excoriate and punish Paula Deen for something that, from the perspective of a discourse, is far more benign?

>3 nathanielcampbell:
"Why? Why do we not only tolerate but celebrate the violence, misogyny, and obscenity of rap, on the one hand; and excoriate and punish Paula Deen for something that, from the perspective of a discourse, is far more benign?"

We can turn off rap music and we can refuse to support Paula Deen.....what we seem to have no control over is the racism and nastiness that is in our governing body. To me this is far more of a problem. Not to mention a lot uglier.
The rappers are making fools of themselves....I don't know many people who celebrate rap music....like anything, I am sure there are rap artists who are....clean, shall we say ? It is a form of music...I guess. Not my favorite and I don't tend to listen.
Paula Deen pushed the envelope until.....she couldn't any more....the fact that everyone is on her butt for it is quite laughable really. Let her do her job and try to sell her books, she has little or no influence over much that matters.

This country allowed members of our lawmakers to disrespect, question the citizenship of and generally make a living hell for our current President....because he is Black. They still have their jobs and in fact some are "celebrated". Fox News anchors and talk radio show hosts are selling books..... and truthfully, some of the things a few of them have said have been far more damaging to race relations, and to our society as a whole, than anything Paula Deen uttered.... At least both the rappers and Ms Deen are being honest about their positions.

>3 nathanielcampbell: There is a difference between the majority ethnic group continuing to use a word that has historically been used to denigrate, oppress (and even enslave) the minority ethnic group and that minority choosing to reclaim that term among themselves. It really isn't that hard to understand. Or are you simply being disingenuous?

It's always interesting to me to see how outraged the members of the dominant group become at the idea of some tiny part of culture being closed to them, yet open to others. Limbaugh agrees passionately with you, Mr Campbell, and the Ku Klux Klan (in all its present incarnations) has taken the bold and intrepid stance that they will not allow inferior peoples to stand in the way of their choice of language. You are free to use whatever language you would like to. Please continue to use the n-word as you normally do. But do understand that others have the right to recoil from your company. The government is not upset with Paula Deen. Private citizens simply have a right to associate with the people and businesses that best reflect their values. Deen's restaurant is very busy these days. Maybe show your support by eating there and using your freedom of speech? And understand that others are equally allowed to choose another restaurant.

>5 RidgewayGirl:: I'm amused that you seem to think that I (1) use the N-word and (2) support Paula Deen. In fact, neither is true. I recoil from the n-word because of the terrible crimes against humanity it represents; and I've never enjoyed Paula Deen's cooking or schtick, because it's so damn unhealthy (how disingenuous is it to encourage people to cook that way when it's led you to become diabetic?).

But I guess I simply don't understand the argument that it's terrible, racist, and oppressive for a white person to use the N-word, but noble and culturally glorious for a black person to do so.

Language is the common heritage of our society, and I thought that we were supposed to encourage a society of racial equality and thus indifference, in which your actions were judged, not by the color of your skin, but by the content of your character.

But that's not what's going on here: the entire judgment of n-word usage is based on your skin color. That's racist. Period.

Furthermore, the rap use of the n-word is tied up with an entire discourse of violence and misogyny that is hateful and repulsive. Yet, they are celebrated for it.

Again, my question isn't about governmental or legal responses. I fully understand the concept of freedom of expression.

I'm trying to have a conversation about socio-cultural responses. The socio-cultural response to Paula Deen has been overwhelmingly negative. Why aren't we having the same level of conversation, the same level of outrage, about the far more corrosive nature of rap lyrics?

I think there's a scapegoat effect involved here. Most Americans feel somewhat nervous & guilty about racism. They worry that they've accidentally said something bad, or acted in a way that reveals prejudice, or thought in ways that imply racism. Now they're projecting all that guilt on Paula Deen: she at least is clearly guilty! This provides an outlet for the internal tension.

I think about similar things when I go play cards in Compton. Then I get to hear things like "Cracker. Peckerwood. Opie. Ofay motherfucker." Oddly enough, just about the last thing I think when I hear those things is how it's a terrible double standard.

I thought she was being sued for using racial epithets in the workplace, towards her employees. Also, her desire to have blacks perform as slaves at a wedding likely gave her corporate sponsors some concern.

Here's one take on it...

http://www.yourblackworld.net/2013/06/black-news/bill-maher-defends-paula-deen-a...

10> Perhaps Deen should have cut a rap album rather than using the language in the workplace.

>11 theoria:
Perhaps we shouldn't make things that don't much matter all that important. Deen is being sued for racism by an employee. According to many poster's on previous threads, she is innocent until proven guilty . The press has her guilty on all accounts. I don't much care for her.....personally I believe that all that sugary sweetness has an equal and opposite side and wouldn't want to be the target should she employ it. But that is a personal judgment....who really knows Ms Deen besides those who are close to her ?
Racism isn't about what you say....it is about how you act. Hence many racists may never say the "n" word...ever, they do not have to. Some individuals possibly could use the word with out any racism attached. (African-Americans for instance)

>7 Amtep:
I think you are right....I believe that making someone else look "worse" or "more guilty" relieves a lot of tension. Those who are probably most bothered the most, are those who have doubts as to how open they really are. Paula Deen does not speak for me....the rappers with all of their violence and women bashing do not speak for my African-American friends.

Limbaugh has his job and he called Ms Fluke a slut.... What is that all about ? He is selling books....and is still flapping his lips.

The first Black President has changed a dynamic in this country....no going back. A few individuals do not like this and racism has become a hyper sensitive subject again.

>6 nathanielcampbell: Language is the common heritage of our society, and I thought that we were supposed to encourage a society of racial equality and thus indifference, in which your actions were judged, not by the color of your skin, but by the content of your character.

Usually when white people talk about "color blindness" in terms of racism what they mean is that no matter whatever racial inequities existed in the past, they want to wipe the slate clean, pretend we're all starting from the same point. In effect, what they are saying is "you can come in to our (white) culture."

But what that sounds like to the long-disenfranchised and repressed minority is an erasure of their history and experience. You can talk about "double standards" but what that really means is that the same words carry different implications depending on who is doing the speaking

And who is doing the speaking matters. The context matters. Rap artists reclaiming the word "nigger," "niggah," "nigga" is an act of defiance. Like women who claim the word "bitch," lesbians who claim "dyke," etc, etc.

White people can't lay the same claim to the word nigger. Men can't lay the same claim to the word "bitch." They have always had the power, they don't have to defy anyone. It's already their world and they've already set the language for it. When black people call each other niggah they aren't indulging in a double standard. They are taking back control of the language.

It's entirely possible -- I'd say probable -- that for the racial divisions in this country to be completely healed, white people will have to stop trying to get everyone to come to their table, and instead will have to come, hat in hand, asking if there's room for them to eat at somebody else's table for once.

Racism isn't about what you say....it is about how you act.

Words are deeds. - Wittgenstein, Culture and Value, 46e

>13 southernbooklady:
Black rappers using Nigger and its variants aren't reclaiming anything; their usage of the terms ceased being innovative several million iterations ago. It's now just a tired old stereotype and as defiant as a teenager getting a tattoo. Ooh, those rebels.

>15 NCKevin: Spoken with the authority of middle age! Seriously, every generation rebels in utterly unique and important ways and each generation is viewed as stupid and repetitive by the one before.

>13 southernbooklady:: "white people will have to stop trying to get everyone to come to their table, and instead will have to come, hat in hand, asking if there's room for them to eat at somebody else's table for once."

I'm sorry, but I don't want to sit at a table with those who glorify violence and the misogynistic subjugation of women.

>16 RidgewayGirl:
And rightly so.

>17 nathanielcampbell: I'm sorry, but I don't want to sit at a table with those who glorify violence and the misogynistic subjugation of women.

You don't sound sorry. ;-)

Of course I share the same disinclination, which is one big reason why I've never become religious.

>19 southernbooklady:: "which is one big reason why I've never become religious."

Touché.

If we're going to be upset about double standards, I think this would be a better place to start...

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/05/us/us-race-marijuana-arrests

>21 Jesse_wiedinmyer: But, see, you've missed the point, Mr Wideinmyer. The outrage comes not from any old group being unfairly targeted or denied access. The outrage comes from the dominant (white, male) group that sees as unbearable that there might be tiny areas that others might access while they cannot.

Witness their finely honed sense of unfairness that they might not get to dictate what happens to women's bodies. It's not fair! Just because they aren't women, shouldn't mean they can't control that. The N-word; it doesn't refer to them, but how insensitive are those African-Americans who flaunt their right to use a word that a white person would get in trouble for using.

And routinely and systematically being denied equal treatment under the law is exactly the same as a single multi-millionaire losing a lucrative contract because she referred to her employees using racial slurs. Being denied the right to make her own decisions as to what is right for her family and bodily integrity under the law is exactly the same as walking by the courthouse and being forced to see two women emerge holding a marriage license (or even just seeing that shocking image on TV). And don't even go near the outrage of having to choose between Spanish and English at the atm!

I have neighbors who are now boycotting the Food Network (no one has mentioned boycotting Wal-Mart, however). What I see is a deep sense of discomfort -- that the words they choose are under attack, that now they have to pay attention to what they say. Change is hard and the speed of change is accelerating. Gay marriage is at a level of acceptance unheard of even a decade ago. Misogynistic and racist language is being monitored, not by the government, but by ordinary people who use social media to make sure that sponsors and businesses are made aware that they might lose money if they continue to support personalities who use such language.

I can understand how difficult it must be for the typical sixty-year-old white guy. They grew up with the expectation of a natural order that placed them firmly at the top, able to support a family with nothing more than a high school diploma, the understanding that at home, on the street and at church his word would carry authority simply because of his skin color, sexual orientation and gender. That's been upended. While we're nowhere near full equality, we're also in a world where once silent voices speak up, often loudly and without showing the proper respect.

Yeah. Ain't it grand?

Here's one guy's summary of the current case against Paula Deen:

http://www.blacklegalissues.com/Article_Details.aspx?artclid=7dfdbe0461

#22 ...the words they choose are under attack...how difficult it must be for the typical sixty-year-old white guy

I almost wish racists did use that kind of language so it would be easier to spot them. As it is, I feel vague paranoia for my se Asian sons as they enter the dating and work world. There are wouldbe employers, customers, and friends who obviously don't discriminate--and they are in the majority from my casual observation--but every time my kids face rejection I wonder... (Racists/class-snobs aren't just white, either.)

Re Paula Deen's black waiters at a family wedding, there's a famous hotel in Michigan (Grand Hotel, Mackinac Island) which is open only in summer and so hires black waiters from the Caribbean, where I understand business is slow in winter. The waiters are very professional, but wear numbers, not name tags, and the clientele is almost entirely wealthy and white (or there on conference). No wonder it was location for movie "Somewhere in Time" ca 1912!

>22 RidgewayGirl: - racist language being monitored
It's no less racist to argue that someone's usage and meaning of a word can be discerned by the color of their skin.

Interesting how you keep mentioning the color of someone's skin in a medium where it's hidden. Seems the online medium isn't black and white enough for some.

Would the entire dynamic of this conversation change if it were all of a sudden revealed that my skin were black rather than white?

(Disclaimer: my skin is white, though I'm always tempted on those questionnaires to check the "Other" box and simply fill in, "American".

But the point here is to examine how we respond to a particular claim--e.g. that rap lyrics are so obscene and degrading that they should treated with the same opprobrium that has met Paula Deen--based on our assumptions of the skin color of the person who made the claim.)

Judging by that FB photo, your skin is more red.

>28 Jesse_wiedinmyer:: Well yes, I had had some sun the day that photo was taken.

Well, if anything, I'd say that I find the whole discussion of double standards to be a massive distraction. And I say that as someone who wasn't even particularly upset about the Paula Deen shit until I read the article in post #24.

>27 nathanielcampbell:
No, it's irrelevant what the color of anyone's skin is; that's the point. The pseudointellectual argument is saying the word's meaning is determined by the speaker's skin - all the while screaming Racist and pointing to someone else.

>30 Jesse_wiedinmyer:
It is a distraction, but that single word is what TV news is focusing on because it's inflammatory and it will get ratings.

I skimmed through the deposition a couple of days ago, and there's *much* more interesting and damning material there.

The pseudointellectual argument is saying the word's meaning is determined by the speaker's skin

No, I believe that's actually the extremely intellectual (like liberal academic intelligentsia) argument. That racism is not racism without power.

>33 Jesse_wiedinmyer:
If we're in the presence of liberal academic greatness in this thread, I'd be honored of they let themselves be known.

Discrimination has everything to do with who holds power. It's naive to believe otherwise, although I've heard this argument before.

>34 NCKevin: I think the only person here afraid to be known is you. There's not much point discussing anything with an imaginary character.

>36 RidgewayGirl:
If you want to make this personal you should discuss it with LT. I don't have the power to release you from the terms you've agreed to, even if I wanted.

>33 Jesse_wiedinmyer: I'm wearing my "liberal academic" t-shirt. Greatness eludes me, alas. ;-)

#22 The N-word; it doesn't refer to them, but how insensitive are those African-Americans who flaunt their right to use a word that a white person would get in trouble for using.

If blacks want to call each use the N-word to each other, or listen to rap music that throws it around, that's fine with me. Where my objection to THEM using it is in the work place. That's when I get bothered.

The nite crew at my store is currently three full timers and four part timers. Five of those people are black. While they're not as bad as they used to be, they use the term towards each other, (or about their mutual friends from outside work), quite often.

While I can "get away" with using it to them when we're BSing around with each other, I have been told in no uncertain terms by management who's overheard us BSing around that even if they use the term, I'm walking on thin ice if ***I*** use it, even if they accept it and we're all BSing around. All I need is ***ONE*** person to overhear it and take offense and complain.

The very LEAST that would happen is I'd get suspended for awhile and possibly being transferred, and it would be entered into my personal record, and if I ever slipped and was caught using the term again, I'd be out on my ass. If whoever complained made big enough a stink about it, I'd be right out the door.

So yes, it offends me that I need to watch what I say no matter what the circumstances, but they can say it all they want.

I do know that if I could change any outside influence with the kids I work with, I would change their music. Most kids just listen to it, and it goes in one ear an out the other. But I have spent more than a few sessions with the kids who are my clients, just listening to their music. It was, for me, sickening. I know what kind of attitudes they have toward women (I once used the word "sexual relationship" in a talk and some insisted I drop the word "relationship"). The racism made me very uncomfortable, but did not phase them at all.

Even worse, they think if they adopt the attitudes of the rappers they listen to, they have a better chance of making it in society, because "this is the way things really work." I cannot tell you how many times the kids look at me and tell me that I don't live in the "real world," because I have never been arrested. "This is what life is really like," they tell me as they make jokes about how raping a pregnant woman gets you laid twice.

Paula Deen may be a racist white cracker, but she is not the one that the kids pay attention to. I have to fight their backgrounds AND their music to get to them these days.

Under my thumb
The girl who once had me down
Under my thumb
The girl who once pushed me around

It's down to me
The difference in the clothes she wears
Down to me, the change has come,
She's under my thumb

Ain't it the truth, babe?

Under my thumb
The squirmin' dog who's just had her day
Under my thumb
A girl who has just changed her ways

It's down to me, yes it is
The way she does just what she's told
Down to me, the change has come
She's under my thumb
Ah, ah, say it's alright

Under my thumb
A siamese cat of a girl
Under my thumb
She's the sweetest, hmmm, pet in the world

It's down to me
The way she talks when she's spoken to
Down to me, the change has come,
She's under my thumb
Ah, take it easy babe
Yeah

It's down to me, oh yeah
The way she talks when she's spoken to
Down to me, the change has come,
She's under my thumb
Yeah, it feels alright

Under my thumb
Her eyes are just kept to herself
Under my thumb, well I
I can still look at someone else

It's down to me, oh that's what I said
The way she talks when she's spoken to
Down to me, the change has come,
She's under my thumb
Say, it's alright.

Say it's all...
Say it's all...

Take it easy babe
Take it easy babe
Feels alright
Take it, take it easy babe

-- The Glimmer Twins, 1966

That was then.

This is now. Tyler the Creator.

"Bitch Suck Dick"
(feat. Jasper Dolphin & Taco)


Awww shit (swag)
Three icy ass niggas from Odd Future doin' some crazy shit (bitch)
By the way, we do punch bitches


I'm swagging bitch, I'm iced out
Oh you mad bitch cause I'm laying on the couch
Smoke a blunt, fuck a bitch, in the butt, I'm bossing
Don't give a fuck, I'm never rolling Slauson
I'm fly bitch, I should poke you in your eyelid
Got the burner bitch, bow-bow
You dead bitch, I'm hot as fuck
I ain't never cold, but I'm icy bitch


My bitch suck dick, like she suck dick


Got the bops in the house, socking bitches in they mouth
See my neck iced the fuck out, we getting money nigga
At the fucking mall, 40 bitches on my nutsack
I pulled up on a mothafucking unicorn (We on our ponies nigga)
Wolf Gang nigga scream that to the mothafucka show me deaf
Golf Wang nigga, Free Earl better show some motherfuckin' respect
All this ice around my neck, all this ice around my dick
Gun to her head make your bitch massage my shoulders




Shut up bitch, suck my dick
You fuckin' bop, you better swallow it
I got a chain with a fuckin' platinum plaque on it
Is that a hundred dollar bill? I'll shit on it
I'm all the fucking well, cause I'm ballin'
Your bitch work for me, she my dish washer
Swag on my dick, 30 thousand million, nigga


You boppin' bitch, you like this dick?
We all know why, cause you's a boppin' bitch
I got a burner, I pop you in your lip
Zoom-zoom, yeah, I'm going fast bitch
I'm loud as fuck, I'm ignorant
Beat your bitch in her mouth just for talkin' shit
You lurkin' bitch? Well, I see that shit
Once again I gotta punch a bitch in her shit
I'm icy bitch, don't look at my wrist
Because if you do, I might blind you bitch
Mount Everest ain't fuckin' with my fuckin' wrist
Fuck global warming, this the ice age bitch

Break me down, you got a lovely face
We're going to your place, and now you got to freak me out
Scream so loud, getting fuckin' laid
You want me to stay but I got to make my way

Hey! You're a crazy bitch
But you fuck so good I'm on top of it
When I dream I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

Hey! You're a crazy bitch
But you fuck so good I'm on top of it
When I dream I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

Take it off, the paper is your game
You jump in bed with fame
Another one night paid in full

You're so fine, it won't be a loss
Cashing in the rocks just to get you face to face

Hey! You're a crazy bitch
But you fuck so good I'm on top of it
When I dream I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

Hey! You're a crazy bitch
But you fuck so good I'm on top of it
When I dream I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

Get the video, fuck you so good
From: http://www.metrolyrics.com/crazy-bitch-lyrics-buckcherry.html
Get the video, fuck you so good
Crazy bitch, crazy bitch
Crazy, bitch

Hey! You're a crazy bitch
But you fuck so good I'm on top of it
When I dream I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

Hey! You're a crazy bitch
But you fuck so good I'm on top of it
When I dream I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back, c'mon

Baby girl you want it all
To be a star you'll have to go down
Take it off no need to talk
You're crazy but I like the way you fuck me

Hey! You're a crazy bitch
But you fuck so good I'm on top of it
When I dream I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

Hey! You're a crazy bitch
But you fuck so good I'm on top of it
When I dream I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

You keep me right on
You're crazy but I like the way you fuck me

BUCKCHERRY - CRAZY BITCH LYRICS

Which isn't rap.

I'm on the brink I wonder what u bitches think
like Madonna walkin round like you ship doesn't stink
No class jack ass bitches actin like a burro
dressed in black head to toe thinkin you're so fuckin euro
Tryin to act Manhattan when you're from some little village
In a Public Enemy shirt and it's all for your image
Cuz any other rap you think it's crap fuckin trash
Bitch talk your shit just never let me get that ass
cuz...
Chorus
I'll fuck u blind bitch
I'll fuck u blind bitch
I'll fuck u blind till you just can't see no more
Back in school I knew this chick her name was Sara Bolerdies
and she thought she was the shit becuz she dated older guys
Dumb bitch fuckin whore always wanted to get laid
but never gave the pussy up to anybody in her grade
Played me like a sucker
like a bitch like a punk
that little pussy lickin finger fuckin ho ass cunt
Never once did she speak to anybody in her class
so one day I told her never let me get that ass
cuz...
Chorus
I'll fuck u blind bitch
I'll fuck u blind bitch
I'll fuck u blind till you just can't see no more
Now all u bitches gettin fucked
gettin drunk smokin buddha,
Gettin laid and gettin played like fuckin Amy Papuda
Better chill with that before u kill the cat
before u spend your fuckin life lying on your back
U ain't gotta let me fuck u to be liked
get a grip, shit I'll like u just the same if u suck a good dick
And yo I'm not speakin to all u girls at my shows
I'm speakin directly to all u fuckin bitches and hoes
Huh
cuz I love women ones who chill drink and laugh
But if your fake ho don't ever cross my muther fuckin path

Kid Rock.

Which might kind of sort of be considered rap, though I doubt you'll find too many kids in the 'hood listening to him.

Kid Rock was a Romney backer.

Interesting too that we seem to be conflating rappers and black people.

I'm not really wanting to get into a "Who can come with the dirtiest lyrics contest, but I assume the lyrics to Under My Thumb were posted to show how we always had objectionable lyrics, and yes I guess we have. But not like what we are seeing today. This is the kind of the music the kids thought it was ok to play for me. (I will reiterate that not all kids who listen to this are likely to become misogynistic rapists. (Maybe my son listens to Tyler the Creator, and just as the good sense not to let me know he does. I do know he likes Macklemore and Eminem.)

And I am not making blanket judgment on all rap. But you have to wonder if any this is making an impact on kids.

Everynight with my star friends
We eat caviar and drink champage
Sniffing in the VIP area
We talk about Frank Sinatra..
"You know Frank Sinatra?"
He's dead!
HAHAHAHAHA!
Dead.
To be famous is so nice
Suck my dick
Kiss my ass
In limosines we have sex
Everynight with my famous friends
Nice...
Suck my dick
Kiss my ass
So nice . . .
VIP area. . .
Frank... Frank Sinatry
Motherfuckers are so nice
Suck my dick
Lick my ass
In the mix we have sex....
Everynight with my favorite friends..
Frank.. Frank.. Frank Sinatra
Everynight with my star friends
Shake your body like the dance
Stupid smiles and autographs
This is a song for France
Everynight with my star friends
In Limosines we have sex.

Miss Kittin and the Hacker

Hey, you may be right. But to turn a blind eye to all of the concurrent shit that one hears in Heavy Metal, etc. is to exercise a double standard.

And to offer this as some sort of double standard for behavior such as Deen's (which, as post #24 indicates, is much more systemic than having used the 'N' word 20 years ago), is little more than a smoke screen.

I believe there's a reason that people talk about sex/drugs/and rock n' roll. I could be mistaken.

And illustrating that misogyny is ubiquitous in all eras.

But thankfully you have artists like Lauryn Hill:

Everything is everything
What is meant to be, will be
After winter, must come spring
Change, it comes eventually
(2x)

I wrote these words for everyone
Who struggles in their youth
Who won't accept deception
Instead of what is truth
It seems we lose the game,
Before we even start to play
Who made these rules? We're so confused
Easily led astray
Let me tell ya that
Everything is everything
Everything is everything
After winter, must come spring
Everything is everything

I philosophy
Possibly speak tongues
Beat drum, Abyssinian, street Baptist
Rap this in fine linen
From the beginning
My practice extending across the atlas
I begat this
Flippin' in the ghetto on a dirty mattress
You can't match this rapper / actress
More powerful than two Cleopatras
Bomb graffiti on the tomb of Nefertiti
MCs ain't ready to take it to the Serengeti
My rhymes is heavy like the mind of Sister Betty
L. Boogie spars with stars and constellations
Then came down for a little conversation
Adjacent to the king, fear no human being
Roll with cherubims to Nassau Coliseum
Now hear this mixture
Where hip hop meets scripture
Develop a negative into a positive picture

Now, everything is everything
What is meant to be, will be
After winter, must come spring
Change, it comes eventually

Sometimes it seems
We'll touch that dream
But things come slow or not at all
And the ones on top, won't make it stop
So convinced that they might fall
Let's love ourselves then we can't fail
To make a better situation
Tomorrow, our seeds will grow
All we need is dedication

Let me tell ya that,
Everything is everything
Everything is everything
After winter, must come spring
Everything is everything

Everything is everything
What is meant to be, will be
After winter, must come spring
Change, it comes eventually

Or Common -

Yeah..
Doo-doo-doo, mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm..
Doo-doo-d-doo, diggy-doo YO..

I never knew a luh, luh-luh, a love like this
Gotta be somethin for me to write this
Queen, I ain't seen you in a minute
Wrote this letter, and finally decide to send it
Signed sealed delivered for us to grow together
Love has no limit, let's spend it slow forever
I know your heart is weathered by what studs did to you
I ain't gon' assault em cause I probably did it too
Because of you, feelings I handle with care
Some niggaz recognize the light but they can't handle the glare
You know I ain't the type to walk around with matchin shirts
If relationship is effort I will match your work
I wanna be the one to make you happiest, it hurts you the most
They say the end is near, it's important that we close..
.. to the most, high
Regardless of what happen on him let's rely

There are times.. when you'll need someone..
I will be by your side..
There is a light, that shines,
special for you, and me..

Yo, yo, check it
It's important, we communicate
and tune the fate of this union, to the right pitch
I never call you my bitch or even my boo
There's so much in a name and so much more in you
Few understand the union of woman and man
And sex and a tingle is where they assume that it land
But that's fly by night for you and the sky I write
For in these cold Chi night's moon, you my light
If heaven had a height, you would be that tall
Ghetto to coffee shop, through you I see that all
Let's stick to understandin and we won't fall
For better or worse times, I hope to me you call
So I pray everyday more than anything
friends will stay as we begin to lay
this foundation for a family - love ain't simple
Why can't it be anything worth having you work at annually
Granted we known each other for some time
It don't take a whole day to recognize sunshine

There are times.. when you'll need someone..
I will be by your side, oh darling
There is a light, that shines,
special for you, and me..

Yeah.. yo, yo, check it
It's kinda fresh you listen to more than hip-hop
and I can catch you in the mix from beauty to thrift shop
Plus you ship hop when it's time to, thinkin you fresh
Suggestin beats I should rhyme to
At times when I'm lost I try to find you
You know to give me space when it's time to
My heart's dictionary defines you, it's love and happiness
Truthfully it's hard tryin to practice abstinence
The time we committed love it was real good
Had to be for me to arrive and it still feel good
I know the sex ain't gon' keep you, but as my equal
it's how I must treat you
As my reflection in light I'ma lead you
And whatever's right, I'ma feed you
Digga-da, digga-da, digga-da, digga-digga-da-da
Yo I tell you the rest when I see you, peace

There are times.. when you'll need someone..
I will be by your side..
There is a light, that shines,
special for you, and me..

(I'll) take my chances.. before they pass..
.. pass me by, oh darling..
You need to look at the other side..
You'll agree..

Or Liz Phair -

I woke up alarmed
I didn't know where I was at first
Just that I woke up in your arms
And almost immediately I felt sorry
'Cause I didn't think this would happen again
No matter what I could do or say
Just that I didn't think this would happen again
With or without my best intentions
And whatever happened to a boyfriend
The kind of guy who tries to win you over?
And whatever happened to a boyfriend
The kind of guy who makes love 'cause he's in it?

And I want a boyfriend
I want a boyfriend
I want all that boring old shit like letters and sodas
Letters and sodas

You got up out of bed
You said you had a lot of work to do
But I heard the rest in your head
And almost immediately I felt sorry
'Cause I didn't think this would happen again
No matter what I could do or say
Just that I didn't think this would happen again
With or without my best intentions

And I want a boyfriend
I want a boyfriend
I want all that stupid old shit like letters and sodas

And I can feel it in my bones
I'm gonna spend another year alone
It's fuck and run, fuck and run
Even when I was seventeen
Fuck and run, fuck and run
Even when I was twelve

And I can feel it in my bones
I'm gonna spend my whole life alone
It's fuck and run, fuck and run
Even when I was seventeen
Fuck and run, fuck and run
Even when I was twelve

You almost felt bad
You said that I should call you up
But I knew much better than that
And almost immediately you felt sorry
'Cause you didn't think this would happen again
No matter what you could do or say
Just that you didn't think this would happen again
Without or without your best intentions

And whatever happened to a girlfriend
The kind of chick who tries to win you over?
And whatever happened to a girlfriend
The kind of chick who makes love 'cause she's in it?

And you want a girlfriend
You want a girlfriend
You want all that boring old shit like letters and sodas
Letters and sodas
Letters and sodas
Letters and sodas

Exile in Guyville is 20 years old (sigh).

Crazy, ain't it.

Though maybe Phair's "Flower" would be the better track to quote -

Every time I see your face I get all wet between my legs
Every time you pass me by, I heave a sigh of pain

Every time I see your face I think of things unpure, unchaste
I want to fuck you like a dog
I'll take you home and make you like it
Everything you ever wanted
Everything you ever thought of
Is everything I'll do to you
I'll fuck you and your minions, too
Your face reminds me of a flower
Kind of like you're underwater
Hair's too long and in your eyes
Your lips a perfect "suck me" size
You act like you're fourteen years old
Everything you say is so obnoxious, funny, true and mean

I want to be your blow job queen
You're probably shy and introspective
That's not part of my objective
I just want your fresh, young jimmy
Jamming, slamming, ramming in me
Every time I see your face I think of things unpure, unchaste

I want to fuck you like a dog
I'll take you home and make you like it
Everything you ever wanted
Everything you ever thought of
Is everything I'll do to you
I'll fuck you till your dick is blue

Though there's a very good chance that she's just mocking the Stones misogyny there.

I only chose rap, not because I want to give Ms. Deen (who I know very little about, and care even less about) or heavy metal a pass, but because rap is what I know. If there is a double standard on my part it is not intentional, and I don't know why you assumed that I had one. Did I have to quote every objectionable lyric in every genre to NOT have a double standard? I am really not sure what your point in post 49 is.

Offensive is offensive.

And it is not just the talking about sex that bothers me. It is basically the attitude that thinks that women are basically mouths and vaginas to masturbate in. (One kid asked my why it is always so awkward after sex when you have to talk to the person. I asked if he knew her name, and he said, "Sometimes." This is a fourteen year old kid.)

And just for full disclosure, these are all white males.

We share 98 % of the genetic structure of the bonobo; I believe that a very strange civilizational sequence of events shook our heads from the trees. It's not for nothing that the wet dreams start when they do.

But about the original post and all: rap started black, so it is fair to generalize to make the argument made in #1. But the problem is that it is up to the victim of words that carried or carry weight to determine their usage in more liberated times. Not all feminists are Mary Daly and take in words like hag...

O, my friends, make not these noises!
Rather let us more pleasurefully
Strike up the song, and more joyfully!

O Joy, thou wondrous spark Divine,
Daughter of Elysium,
We enter drunk of fire’s wine,
Heav’nly one, thy holy room!
By thy spell is forgéd again,
What strictly fashion divides;
There Brotherhood shall be of Men,
Where thy gentle wing resides.

To whom is given great success,
To be the friend of a friend,
Who finds himself a wife spotless,
His cheer with us may he blend!
He, too, who can but one soul name
His own in the great world long!
Let him leave who could not this claim
Weeping forth out of this throng!

A thirst for joy all creatures fill
From Nature’s breast, full and wide;
All of the good, all of the ill
Follow in her rosy stride.
Kisses and vines she gave to us,
And a friend who in Death trod;
Love’s joy was giv’n to worms in dust,
And the Cherub stands ‘fore God.

Gladly, as His suns are flying
By the Heavens’ lovely lay,
Run, my brothers, on your way,
Joyful, like a hero conqu’ring!

Come now, embrace, ye millions wide!
For the whole wide world this kiss!
Brothers, o’er the stars’ abyss
Must a loving Father reside.

Do ye fall, ye millions swelling?
Dost thou sense the Maker, Earth?
Seek him o’er the starry berth!
O’er the stars he must be dwelling.

(Friedrich Schiller's "An die Freude", as set to music in the fourth movement of Ludwig van Beethoven's 9th Symphony. Just to offer an alternative for what a song might be.)

60
Speaking as someone who enjoys music almost as much as reading, I am going to speculate that there are far more, if not beautiful, at least, pleasing songs than not.

Not all African Americans appreciate rap music. There is plenty of music produced by Black musicians that are pleasing to listen to....

I have never heard of most of the songs posted on this thread.....except The Rolling Stone's song, which I didn't like when it was released and don't like now. The difference between then and now seems to be the element of anger. Young people seem angry to the point of closing off any other emotion when it comes to dealing with each other. Seems like they have sex and anger going hand in hand. Not sure why that is ?

you were not a slave

in this country racism is very much alive ,or is it fear and jealousy

>63 susan11:: "in this country racism is very much alive ,or is it fear and jealousy"

But those are different things. I can be afraid or jealous of someone for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with race.

So what you're saying is, "either racism is very much alive, or it's something else." Well yes, that's a tautology.

No, she merely wrote briefly. I think she means that fear/jealousy can be roots of racism.

62
I was not referring specifically to the lyrics of rap music. My statement included ALL of the examples posted. I believe Arctic stated that those he deals with who are identifying with harsh lyrics were White.

No I was not a slave but I am a woman of mixed decent ( Native American). I do not think your statement regarding slavery is an answer to why some young people are so angry. My guess as to where some of the anger comes from, would be that ,in part, my generation has done little to changes the hearts of those who are racists, ( or sexist or homophobia) not to mention, we have left them a pretty messed up society. Perhaps they feel another form of slavery which has nothing to do with race but more to do with opportunity or lack there of.

65
I think "she " is a "he"

Johnny Cash would be pleased.

Ha! Thanks for the ear worm, Mr Harsch.

I can't say that I "care" much about Paula Deen per se (I've never been a "foodie") but I also have never seen or heard the "charm" in "rap" -- it's reciting not singing. ("Recite!" One could be a Black Muslim I guess.) I prefer Nat King Cole or Aretha, both of which mark me as "ancient" eh...

How about Gil Scott Heron, Ledbelly...

Jelly Role Morton, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Cannonball Adderley, Charlie Parker, Duke Elllington, Count Basie, Cab Calloway, Scott Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Marvin Gaye, and....(DEEP VOICE MODE) Barry White.

Yes, we have certainly put Mr. Welch in his place, as he clearly only dabbles in 'black' music.

(Harry Belafonte, Dave Brubeck)

I was presenting MY "dabbling" but do have admiration for all named above. But sure I'm just a "square"...

LITERALLLY, foks, I swear. He is a CUBE, a precise CUBE.

As per Hubert Humphrey -- "Hube the Cube," a "square" anyway you look?...

But no rube, not MW

HEY RUBE!...

Um...Dave Brubeck is white. I mean, he is REALLY white.

That's what Harsch meant.

Belafonte isn't of course ("white") but I liked him in the Preminger "Carmen" movie and I guess I liked "Day-o!" but I wasn't a great fan. He was a leader as per civil rights however and I certainly respect him...

Irony seldom passes all here.

#53-56: Jesse, theoria:

There's a nice article in Spin on Exile in Guyville at 20

#6: Language is the common heritage of our society

Communities that have spoken Dutch or German for at least a century have discovered that their mother tongue is Low German. A few groups in Cornwall have decided to resurrect Cornish. Going back in history, the Norwegians discovered they spoke Norwegian, not Danish, and the Jews discovered they spoke Yiddish, not debased German. Language is a powerful cultural element to express who you are.

I've read complaints about school desegregation; that black schools with a rich long history got taken over, renamed, repainted, and all vestiges of their old history destroyed. On a closer level, many blacks have been told that their dialect is inferior, and that they should always speak the white way. Racial equality and indifference shouldn't mean that the minority culture gets erased.

Why aren't we having the same level of conversation, the same level of outrage, about the far more corrosive nature of rap lyrics?

It's not true that we haven't. Senate hearings have been held on the matter; September 25, 2007, for example.

The thing is, the people Paula Deen are working with don't want to be associated with what she represents. I don't know how seriously to take the boycotts, but certainly this has the potential to hurt the Food Network and others associated with her. Those distributing and buying rap music have no such impulses. Walmart and others won't sell their works, at least not unedited, but the sales through other venues makes up for that. Outrage is pointless.

82> Thanks!

Here's a video in which the difference between the N-word and "cracker" is explained, somewhat obliquely. But it is useful, especially for those who think racism is an abstract term.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-ckDJ3xTaE

To answer the topic of the post; yes.

It would be nearly impossible to find anyone of Deen's age who had NOT uttered a racial or sexual epithet in anger at least once; probably far more often. (In fact, I suspect that finding anyone over the age of 10 might be difficult.)

So, the context has to be considered. Does this person do so casually? Do they act in a manner consistent with a belief in those words? How do people from that group, who actually interact with that person, regard them?

Not, 'They said the N/B/C/H/etc. word! They're awful! Shun them!'

Well, one wonders why a multi-millionaire entertainer would want to address this issue in an extended interview, i.e., what would be the upside for him? - but Tim Allen has stepped into it bigtime:

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/tim-allen-defends-paula-deen-n-w...

I could easily explain all this to Mr. Allen but we are not acquaintances so it is his loss.

The only white people who are allowed to used the actual n-word are Sarah Silverman and Louis C.K. Those are the only exceptions to the "Whites aren't allowed to say the actual n-word." rule. If Mr. Allen thinks he's an exception also then he is a bigger putz than I had ever thought.

Now, regardless of what Ms. Deen said or ever did to her employees, or what her sons ever did or said, I don't think they ever went THIS far:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/27/bananas-thrown-at-black-i_n_3662860.htm...

Here's the deal on that - there are probably a half-dozen to a few dozen neo-nazis in every country in the world with a population of a half-million or more, so the fact that this happened in Italy does not shock me. Probably some small per cent of Italians are out-of-control racist scum, and ditto in most countries.

But I have a suspicion that millions of people in the U.S. think it was pretty funny. You know, the millions of Americans who are racist and too dumb to know it?

They self-label as tea-partiers, republicans, right-wingers, and/or conservatives. But a stinking racist turd by any other name is still a stinking racist turd.

Gee - how did so many Americans get this way? Do we suppose it could be genetic? Wow - that would be ironic. But I think it is probably cultural - as in those whose culture is lower on the social evolutionary scale than yogurt.

Most rap music is bought by white Kids.

Even Jay Z knows that it's just "Ignorant Shit."

Yessir!

Just the sound of his voice is a hit!
Ya'll niggas got me really confused out there
I make "Big Pimpin" or "Give It 2 Me", one of those...
Ya'll hail me as the greatest writer of the 21st Century
I make some thought-provoking shit
Ya'll question whether he falling off
I'ma really confuse ya'll on this one
Follow...

When them tops come down, chicks tops come down
Like when them shots come out make cops come around
When the blocks come out I can wake up a small town
Finish off the block then I make my mall rounds
When them stares get exchanged then the 5th come out
The tough guy disappears then the bitch come out
"That's him" -I'm usually what they whisper about
Either what chick he with, or his chip amount
Cause I been doing this since CHIPS was out
Watchin' Erik Estrada baggin' up at the Ramada
Table full of powder, AC Broke
'Bout to take another shower on my 25th hour
Spike Lee's everywhere, game or the flight
You might see me anywhere, day in the life
Only thing changed the tail number on the flight
I can touch down and take off the same night

I'm so bossy
Bitch get off me
Trick get off me
You cant get shit off me
I'm so flossy
No 6-exhaust breeze
laid back, Maybach's
Don't even talk to me!

This is that ignorant shit you like
Nigga, fuck, shit, ass, bitch, trick, plus ice
C'mon, I got that ignorant shit you love
Nigga, fuck, shit, maricon, puta, and drugs
C'mon, I got that ignorant shit you need
Nigga, fuck, shit, ass, bitch, trick plus weed
I'm only trying to give you what you want
Nigga, fuck, shit, ass, bitch, you like it don't front

They're all actors
Looking at themselves in the mirror backwards
Can't even face themselves, don't fear no rappers
They're all weirdos, DeNiro's in Practice
So don't believe everything your earlobe captures
Its mostly backwards
Unless it happens to be as accurate as me
And everything said in song you happen to see
Then actually, believe half of what you see
None of what you hear even if its spat by me
And with that said, I will kill niggas dead
Cut niggas short, give you wheels for legs
Im a K-I- double -L-E-R
See ya'll in hell
Shoot niggas straight through the E.R.
Its S.C., C.E.O., the next Lyor?
No, the next leader of the whole free world
And the first thing i'ma do is free Sigel, GO!

Take off the cuffs, unlock the gate
Its that ignorant nigga that you love to hate
The '07 Ice Cube, B. Sig so rude
Tell a trick, get these nuts, eat dick like food
Now see if I care if this verse get aired
Even if you mute it the curse is there, yeah
I'm so raunchy, bitch get off me
Keep my flea collar on, you lil ticks get off me!

I missed the part where it stopped being about Imus
What do my lyrics got to do with this SHIT?
SCARFACE the movie did more than Scarface the rapper to me
Still that ain't the blame for all the shit that's happened to me
Are you saying what I'm spitting,
Is worse than these celebutantes showin' they kitten, you kidding?
Lets stop the bullshittin'
Til' we all without sin, let's quit the pulpit-ing, c'mon!

This is that ignorant shit you like
Nigga, fuck, shit, ass, bitch, trick, plus ice
C'mon, I got that ignorant shit you love
Nigga, fuck, shit, maricon, puta, and drugs
C'mon, I got that ignorant shit you need
Nigga, fuck, shit, ass, bitch, trick plus weed
I'm only trying to give you what you want
Nigga, fuck, shit, ass, bitch, you like it don't front

It's only entertainment.

"THAT'S EN-TER-TAIN-MENT!"?

I guess so...

Not any grosser than the lyrics from any of the late G.G. Allin and his band - all of whom were white, I believe. E.g., here are the lyrics to "Kill Thy Father, Rape Thy Mother" -

http://www.metrolyrics.com/kill-thy-father-rape-thy-mother-lyrics-gg-allin.html

Anyway - I'm not seeing the connection between gross rap lyrics and Paula Deen. Does Paula rap? Or is she punk?

Okay -- she doesn't...

Apparently she needs a new way to make a living.

So she DOES?!...

Here are the titles to most of G.G.'s songs:

Bite It You Scum
You Hate Me & I Hate You
Ass Fuckin', Butt Suckin', Cunt Lickin', Masturbation
Spread Your Legs, Part Your Lips
Beat, Beat, Beat
I Want To Fuck The Shit Out Of You
I Kill Everything I Fuck
I Wanna Fuck Myself
I Don't Give A Shit
Anal Cunt
Kill Thy Father, Rape Thy Mother
I Wanna Fuck Your Brains Out
Outskirts Of Life
Fuck The Dead
Carmelita
Drink, Fight & Fuck
I Wanna Piss On You
Tough Fuckin' Shit
Needle Up My Cock
Shoot, Knife, Strangle, Beat & Crucify
I'm A Gypsy Motherfucker
I'm Gonna Rape You
Live Fast, Die Fast
No Rules
I'm A Rapist
Outlaw Scumfuc
Livin' Like An Animal
Hard Candy Cock
Cheri Love Affair
GG's X-MAS Song
Louden Boomer
Clit Licker
Abuse Me (I Want To Die)
Scumfuc Tradition
Don't talk to me
Cock On The Loose
Fuck Authority
Blow Jobs
Fuckin' The Dog
Laying Up With Linda
You'll Never Tame Me
Highest Power
1980's Rock 'N' Roll
Dead or alive
Son Of Evil
Snakeman's Dance
Assface
Suck Dog
Gimmie Some Head
Stink Finger Clit
Legalize Murder
Violence Now - Assassinate The President
Raw, Brutal, Rough & Bloody
Expose Yourself To Kids
In This Room
Guns, Bitches, Brawls & Bottles
Darkness & A Bottle To Hold
One Man Army
Pick Me Up (On Your Way Down)
I Need Adventure
Terror In America
My Sadistic Killing Spree
Shove That Warrant Up Your Ass
A Fuckup
Automatic
Pussy Summit Meeting
Brutality & Bloodshed For All
Bad Habits
Teenage Twats
God Of Fire In Hell
Watch Me Kill
Scars On My Body/Scabs On My Dick
I'll Slice Your Fucking Throat
Take Aim & Fire
No Rights
NYC Tonite
Blood For You
Hanging Out With Jim
Fuck Off, We Murder
Bastard Son Of A Loaded Gun
Sluts In The City
Teacher's Pet
I Wanna Be Your Dog
I'm A Cunt Suckin Cannibal
Unpredictable
Out For Blood
Convulsions



http://www.metrolyrics.com/gg-allin-lyrics.html

My point is rappers ain't shit when it comes to gross lyrics. For the grossest you apparently need some white guys. lol.

Well, I'm just saying she could do worse.

I'd like to hear her first CD!...

Just popping in to say that when I was in high school I loved GG Allin and a band called Anal Cunt that rivals him in bad taste and I still manage to be a responsible, educated adult. Some kids listen to that stuff because it makes you feel like a badass. You get over it. I was a suburban kid rebelling. At the end of the day, I had a roof over my head, plenty to eat, and a scholarship to college. (I still get a kick out of it sometimes though).

Vulgar, obscene, sexist music doesn't turn people with good chances of success into violent criminals. And taking music away from kids won't change the world they were brought up in or their values.

Rap music isn't the problem, it's a symptom. It appeals to people who are disenfranchised by showing them a way that people can gain money and power in a society that routinely denies them equal access to education and employment.

Yeah. I always had to wonder about that Rick Ross (artist named after the drug dealer widely credited with starting the 'crack epidemic' track) "Hustling." You know, where he brags about cars and coke and women. This makes you what? A Reagan era yuppie? Hey, the real Noriega owes you a million favors? Ok, scratch that. You're Reagan himself.

A friend of mine reminded me that our parents didn't much like what we liked and rap fits into that pattern and so, ten years older than me, he got a bunch of it out of the library to listen for any he liked, and found that given that limitation--only rap--there was some he DID like. Where he worked it helped him a great deal because rap was playing nearly all the time. I heard his favorite and could not get over the predictables that preceded the words.

That is not necessarily true. Although all my children went through a "shit music" phase, I took over their education, and guided them to the good stuff, given their own particular tastes. For my son, I bought him his first Ramones CD, which then led him to Black Flag, and from their to versions of punk and metal I cannot keep up with. For my daughter, I just let her listen to what I bought, and she started developing an Indie Rock theme, which I benefited from greatly.

My youngest son is still in the Macklemore/Eminem phase, and I am wondering if he needs some Arrested Development.

I just don't want them to say embarrassing things about music, like when my oldest son told me thought the drummer from Slipknot was the best drummer ever. (Apparently he had a revolving drum set and performed part of the set upside down.) I just played him a Buddy Rich video, and he started to rethink his former statement.

I still like Nat King Cole -- AND Dave Brubeck!...

And we like both kinds of music here. Country AND Western.

I went to Nashville once, and of course visited the Grand Ole Opry while I was there. I was amazed that there was NO predominate age group represented. I guess I was expecting to see more older folks, but that was not the case the night I was there. The age spread looked more like a family reunion than any other concert I have attended.

I always liked Johnny Cash and enjoyed some of the fifties country like Patsy Cline say and I was a true fan of western, namely Roy Rogers, Gene Autry and the great Sons of the Pioneers...

Sons of the Pioneers: mention of them here makes my day.

I'm glad I was able to say something that pleases you...

PublicPolicyPolling ‏@ppppolls
Favorability ratings with Georgia Republicans: Paula Deen 73/11, Martin Luther King Jr. 59/28

That high for King huh...