VOTING on the 2014 CATs

There has been a discussion going on here:

http://www.librarything.com/topic/158144#4301228

We've discussed which of last year's CATs we'd like to keep and we've talked about what new CATs we'd like to participate in.

CATs stand for "categories and themes" and are our monthly themed reads. Participation is entirely optional. Some people choose one CAT and participate every month. Others participated in multiple CATs in a month and skipped them the next month. The CATs are a fun way to suggest books to people, whether new books they'd never heard of or considered before or an unread book from somewhere on a dusty shelf. Finding a single book to fulfill all three CATs from the 2013 Challenge was called a CATtrick.

Over the next few posts I'll pull out things from our previous discussion about each CAT and put it up for a vote. Please vote. It's not important to vote NO on the CATs you'd never bother with, because if a bunch of people want it, it'll happen and if only a few people like the sound if it, it won't. But, of course, you can vote NO if you want.

We've discussed the number of CATs we'd like to see next year and have come up with a number between two and five. Let's revisit that discussion once the votes are in and we can see if there's an obvious answer. Please vote YES to any CAT you think you might participate in next year. Remember, the CATs are optional. Voting YES is not an obligation. Not voting YES or voting NO does not bar you from changing your mind and participating anyway. There will be a CAT next year that you will like. There will be one you don't find that interesting.

Please vote! And please enter into the discussion by posting your thoughts on this thread. Everyone's views are valuable, from a new person figuring things out to people who've participated in the Category Challenges from the beginning.

Let's begin with the CATs we enjoyed last year.

The AlphaCAT

http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/2013_AlphaCAT
http://www.librarything.com/topic/145843

The AlphaCAT features two letters each month. Last year we began with A and M and proceeded from there. The reader chooses a book based on those letters, picking a book with an author whose first or last name begins with one of the month's letters, a word in the title or even a character. What book fit was left largely to the participant's own judgement so that some thought words like "the" and "and" were fine, others were more stringent.

Pros:
-Easy to plan ahead since you knew which months had which letters months before the CAT started.

-Works for everyone; no matter what kinds of genres you like, you can find a book to fit.

-Easy to add to other CATs in the hopes of getting a CATtrick.

-Can usually find something on one's TBR (to be read) shelf or at the library.

Cons:
-Not surprising, it doesn't stretch our reading or push us out of our comfort zones.

-Has already been done last year, so we would just be repeating ourselves.

The RandomCAT

http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/2013_Random_CAT_Challenge
http://www.librarything.com/topic/145846

For this CAT, volunteers take a month and come up with a topic, which can be anything. Then a few days or a few weeks before the month in question, the volunteer will open the thread with the surprise topic. Previous RandomCATs included LabLit, Mother Nature, pretty covers, cold weather and dark themes. Themes can be broad or very specific and there is no telling ahead of time what the RandomCAT will be.

Pros:
-The themes were surprisingly inventive and generated a lot of discussion.

-Since every month is chosen by a different person, it gives several people a chance to have some fun coming up with a theme.

-It was a challenge to find a book that both fit the month's RandomCAT and fit within an individual's challenge.

-Good for those who don't like to plan months in advance or like spontaneity in their reading.

Cons:
-Not suitable for people who like to plan out their year's reading well in advance.

-Not always possible to get a book from the library in time.

-Often required thought and research, which not everyone has time for.

The AwardsCAT

http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/2013_AwardsCAT
http://www.librarything.com/topic/146095

This CAT focusses on awards. Last year we chose a literary or general award and a genre award for each month. For the general awards, the chosen prizes varied from the Pulitzer and Nobel, to the Giller and the Booker to the IMPAC Dublin and the Morning News Tournament of Books. For genre awards, we read books that had won The Agatha (for mysteries), The Hugo (science fiction and fantasy), the Spur (westerns) and the Bram Stoker (horror) among many others.

Pros:
-There was a lot of variety each month, with two awards to choose from.

-All awards are known at the beginning of the year, which makes planning easy.

-It was easy to use the CAT to either stretch one's reading or to get books off of the TBR.

-Awards were matched to when they were given (as much as possible) or to the appropriate time of year.

Cons:
-Required each reader to find a book from a specific list of authors and/or titles.

-Required time and effort to find a book that fit both the CAT and an individual's challenge.

-When trying out an unfamiliar genre, some didn't want to read "the best", but rather "light" versions.

So now for new suggestions:

MysteryCAT

Each month would feature an author or a type of mystery.

Pros:
-There are a lot of mystery readers participating in the 2014 Challenge.

-Mysteries tend to be short and quick to read.

-It would be fun to look at the classic authors like Allingham or Christie together. The discussions might be interesting.

Cons:
-leaves out everyone who doesn't generally read mysteries.

-We haven't really discussed what this CAT would look like.

DeweyCAT

Each month would feature a set of numbers from the Dewey Decimal System. For example, the 100s are philosophy and psychology, the 200s are religion, the 300s are social science, and so on.

Pros:
-A rare non-fiction CAT.

-A wide variety of topics.

-Encourages a stretching of one's reading choices.

Cons:
-Leaves out people who don't like to read non-fiction.

-Will require some thought and planning on the participant's part.

GeoCAT or GeographyCAT

This CAT would choose locations as the basis for choosing a book. How broad or narrow the locations would be is still open for discussion, from as wide as continents (Asia, Europe), to regions (SE Asia, Pacific islands), to countries (Britain, South Africa) or even cities (New York, Sydney) with the possibility of mixing that all up. One could choose a book by an author from that location, or a book set in that location.

Pros:
-Both non-fiction and fiction fit into this CAT.

-Will either stretch one's reading or be easy to find on one's TBR depending on area chosen.

-Volunteers can introduce areas where they live or are familiar with, adding depth to this CAT.

Cons:
-Some regions are hard to find books about.

-Will require research by each participant to find books set in specific places.

HistoryCAT

This CAT would choose different times and historical events as the basis for each month's CAT.

Pros:
-A CAT that easily allows both fiction and non-fiction.

-Allows a variety of genres, just set in different times.

-Discussion could be interesting, with different books, both fiction and non-fiction, being read about the same event.

Cons:
-Duplication of an already existing group: http://www.librarything.com/groups/readingthroughtime

-Requires knowledge of world events and research to find a book set in the right time.

GenreCAT or Sub-GenreCAT

Each month would choose a different Genre to read. This is like the genre part of the AwardCAT, without having to be limited by a specific list of titles and/or authors. There was also the suggestion that a theme be chosen and then any genre book with that theme would fit. For example, for history one could choose a historical romance, a historical mystery, a steampunk fantasy, etc...

Pros:
-Allows for genres of literature to take center stage without being restricted to titles that had won awards.

-Encourages people to try genres they don't usually read.

-CAT can be designed to be as wide or narrow as we want.

Cons:
-People tend not to participate when genres they dislike are featured.

-If the parameters are too broad, they will be meaningless and there will be very little discussion.At BookLizard's request, I'm adding what she's said about her vision for this CAT here. If you're unsure about any part of it, please ask her as she's put a lot of thought into this.

I have no problem with a ThemeCAT. I was just trying to make the MysteryCAT more inclusive by including other genres. The themes I was picking were based on mystery subgenres because so many people seemed interested in a MysteryCAT (even though it seems to still be a mystery what exactly that would entail). Genre fiction is generally plot-driven, so I think it's easier to figure out if genre fiction will fit a theme than it is with literary fiction. Also, it could generate more discussion with people recommending favorite books they've read in a subgenre.

I don't suppose it would be enough to simply read a book with a historical setting, or a novel that has medical personnel or events in it, or is humorous, etc. Is it?
In my "vision" for the GenreCAT, a book from any genre that fit the theme would work. So a romance about a doctor, a science fiction story about a virus, a medical mystery would all work for the medical theme. A book called "Dr. Disco" about a nightclub DJ would not fit.

I didn't plan to include nonfiction or literary fiction, but if people want to make it a ThemeCAT instead of a GenreCAT, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea. I just don't want it to be too much like the RandomCAT which I thought got a bit too random at times. That seemed more like a game than a challenge - playing with words in the title instead of focusing on the actual books.

That's all, folks. Vote and discuss. You can change your vote if you change your mind. Let's leave the voting up for a few weeks so that everyone gets a chance to weigh in. Then we'll look at the numbers and those CATS with the most votes will be given their own threads so that we can plan their structure, find volunteers and get things going.

I think I might be the one who first mentioned a MysteryCAT. Let me say that my thinking about that was not only for the mystery genre. Many other genres have books that include a mystery. Historicals, sci fi, fantasy. Mystery goes beyond murder mysteries as well to include puzzles and lost objects etc.

Thanks for setting all this up, RG!

Thanks! And, voted. :)

I started with the CATS last year but I had made my challenge too large and many of my books didn't fit into a CAT easily so I ended up not doing the CATS I had planned to do. This year I have a smaller challenge and therfore will be able to do the CATS. I especially would be interested in the Random, Dewey, Mystery and Genre CATS.

The GenreCAT was NEVER supposed to be a different genre each month. The idea was to be more inclusive than a MysteryCat and get more people to participate. I thought the MysteryCAT was going to be a different type of mystery each month so the idea was to spin-off of those subgenres of mystery and match them with subgenres of other genres. If you wanted to read just mysteries, you could, but this would give people more options. Plus, so many books cross genres, it could be fun to try to find "CAT tricks" all in one book - I'm thinking something like To Say Nothing of the Dog for the history category which is SF for the time-travel, Mystery because they're trying to find the missing Bishop's Birdstump, and Romance because of the love story.

Pros:

-More inclusive than just a MysteryCAT

-More structured than the RandomCAT

-People can challenge themselves as much or as little as they wish. They can read just their favorite genre or try different ones.

Cons:

-If you really hate that month's "theme," you'll probably want to skip it, although other people might have suggestions for you

Thanks, BookLizard. Could you give a few examples of what a month's theme might look like?

Thanks RG for organizing this ... I've voted :)

Voted - looks like I'll need to have my own private AlphaCat challenge next year. 😀

Are we going to vote on how many Cats we are going to have next year?

Yes, of course we'll vote. It looks like we'll be voting on having three or four CATs.

Examples for GenreCAT:

Monthly theme - subgenres

History - historical mystery, historical romance, steampunk, time-travel, etc.
Medicine - Medical mystery, "doctor" romance, "virus" SFF, etc.
Comedy - Comic/Bumbling Detective, romantic comedy, comic SFF, etc.
Order in the Court - courtroom drama, "royal" romance, fairy court fantasy, etc
Police - Police procedural, "police" romance, "police" SFF, etc.
The Dark Side - Noir, Romantic Suspense or Gothic, dark fantasy, cyberpunk or biopunk, etc.
Anti-hero - Heists and Capers, "Bad boy" romance, "antihero" SFF
Espionage - Espionage/Spy mystery, "spy" romance, Spy-Fi, etc.

Like this version of Genre Cat - changed my vote. Think I could find something I own to fit almost any genre.

I think the confusion for me was that this was being called "genre". For me, a more descriptive title would have been ThemeCAT - the focus being on the theme that each of us would be exploring in our different choices. I agree with LittleTaiko, I like this "version" of it better than the previous mis-understanding.

However, I still am fuzzy on how I can know which sub-genre a book will fit into before I've read it. Obviously, I wouldn't always be so clueless, but I don't have a crystal clear understanding of what all those sub-genres even are, much less whether a book I'm interested in fits into a certain one or not.

Pausing to reflect for a moment, I still don't think I've quite got it right according to BookLizard's vision. I don't suppose it would be enough to simply read a book with a historical setting, or a novel that has medical personnel or events in it, or is humorous, etc. Is it?

At this point, I'm tempted to vote NO simply because I don't understand what we're really going to be doing here.

23> I have no problem with a ThemeCAT. I was just trying to make the MysteryCAT more inclusive by including other genres. The themes I was picking were based on mystery subgenres because so many people seemed interested in a MysteryCAT (even though it seems to still be a mystery what exactly that would entail). Genre fiction is generally plot-driven, so I think it's easier to figure out if genre fiction will fit a theme than it is with literary fiction. Also, it could generate more discussion with people recommending favorite books they've read in a subgenre.

I don't suppose it would be enough to simply read a book with a historical setting, or a novel that has medical personnel or events in it, or is humorous, etc. Is it?
In my "vision" for the GenreCAT, a book from any genre that fit the theme would work. So a romance about a doctor, a science fiction story about a virus, a medical mystery would all work for the medical theme. A book called "Dr. Disco" about a nightclub DJ would not fit.

I didn't plan to include nonfiction or literary fiction, but if people want to make it a ThemeCAT instead of a GenreCAT, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea. I just don't want it to be too much like the RandomCAT which I thought got a bit too random at times. That seemed more like a game than a challenge - playing with words in the title instead of focusing on the actual books.

#24 Thanks for explaining. I think I understand better now. I'm not asking for a name change, just sharing that the name was causing me to misunderstand what you were suggesting.

I'm anxious for the voting to conclude so we can find out which CATs we'll have for next year.

I'm with you, sjmccreary. Given that BookLizard has gone to the trouble to further explain the GenreCAT, lets give that a day for people to reassess.

As for the MysteryCAT, I believe that the initial idea was to alternate subgenres with major mystery authors, so that one month would be the works of Agatha Christie, the next month would feature police procedurals, then Rex Stout, then Noir, and so on, with much discussion going into which authors and subgenres we include.

When will we be voting on whether we want three or four CATs?

Let's do it! The votes stand as follows:

AlphaCAT: 9
RandomCAT: 33
AwardsCAT: 15
MysteryCAT: 28
DeweyCAT: 12
GeographyCAT/GeoCAT: 34
HistoryCAT: 21
GenreCAT/SubGenreCAT: 17

So the CATs in order of popularity are:

GeoCAT/GeographyCAT 34
RandomCAT 33
MysteryCAT 28
HistoryCAT 21
GenreCAT 17
AwardsCAT 15
DeweyCAT 12
AlphaCAT 9

Let's now vote on how many CATs we'd like to see next year.

Please vote YES only once (or twice if you're feeling indecisive). You can vote NO or UNDECIDED if you want, but the votes we're counting are the yeses. Please take into consideration how many CATs you personally would like to participate in. You can easily see which CATs will be active next year by the number of votes for each.

Once we choose the number of CATs, individual threads will be set up for each CAT, and we'll begin the fun of deciding how each one will work.

Don't despair if your favorite CAT isn't chosen. There's always next year, as well as your own thread where you can do whatever you want.

Voted four in the hope that HistoryCAT makes the cut.

Reading Through Time is a spin-off group of the category challenges and I'm not sure how a History CAT would be any different than this group. Anyone interested is welcome to join.

Well, RTT group has some eras they won't do because they've used them recently.

I looked at the RTT group, and it seems like they do themes too instead of just time periods.

What is a take it or leave it category?

A take it or leave it challenge is just that -- you can do the CAT if it interests you or not, if it doesn't. It's optional and only intended to enhance our reading experience and let us enjoy talking about books. That's it.

RidgewayGirl, would you mind editing the description of the Genre/Subgenre CAT to more accurately reflect what it is - or should I say, isn't?
It isn't a different genre every month. Thanks.

From my own experience there, the Reading Through Time group is friendly and open to new people wandering in and out. It's as optional as the CATs.

BookLizard, I'll copy what you wrote into the description. If there's anything you'd like to add, go ahead and post it here as we're all reading along as we go. I appreciate the thought you're putting into this. If it makes the cut this year, will you lead it and if it doesn't, will you reoffer it next year?

I voted to do all the CATs because they are Take It Or Leave It CATs - not Take What You Want and Tell Everyone Else They Can't Do What They Want CATs.

I think it should be up to the person who suggested the CAT if they want to take on the burden and responsibility of organizing and running the CAT if only a dozen or so people want to participate.

@ 45 -- BookLizard, you've convinced me to do the same! I personally don't mind if there are a whole bunch of CATs...I'll just do the ones that I like and leave the rest. I guess the only issue would be if people really want to do all the CATs but can't keep track of 7 or 8 different ones.

hmmm.. I was saying keep the number of CATs limited, but I like your argument, BookLizard. I'm changing my votes too.

That is a strong argument, BookLizard. Does anyone have any reasons for choosing fewer CATs? Discussing things tends to mean we all at least understand why we've chosen as we have and there are fewer opportunities for people to feel unheard or ignored.

I voted for three purely because that's how many I feel I can keep track of, but there is no reason at all not to do all of them.

It'd be hard to get a CAT-trick, though, with so many CATs.

If I understand you are suggesting that there would be eight CAT threads and a person could take part in whichever ones they wanted to. It would be nice as I voted for three since I felt I couldn't keep track of more than three, but I would rather do Genre that Geo! but to get Genre the old way I would have needed to vote to do 5 which just wasn't going to happen!.. So...

I am changing my vote as well.

Yes, I agree with the argument and have changed my vote too. The Dewey Cat for example isn't something that I can see myself committing to every month... but I can see myself choosing to do a few over the course of the year.

Hmm, I'm torn. I think three is a manageable number (some months it wasn't too difficult to read books for all 3 CATs and I like the top three CATs. But I don't want people to feel limited in their participation and personally I would really like to see the Award CAT again. However, with that many CATs it is going to take a lot of people to organize and get the threads and Wiki pages going. Should this thread also be gauging interest in how many and who would be the organizers for the various CATs?

Btw, I think that majika, RidgewayGirl and all the RandomCAT organizers have done a phenomenal job on the 2013 CATs!

I understand the appeal of having ALL the CATs, no one likes to tell anyone NO. But I think having so many would detract from the appeal of the CATs.

As Aliciamay pointed out, it would require many more people to organize threads and wiki pages for all those CATs for the whole year. As the nominator of the DeweyCAT, I am not willing to be responsible for it for the entire year if there are only 3 or 4 people participating each month. And if that is the way the CATs are to be structured, I will be very reluctant to ever nominate one again. That is, if by simply suggesting a CAT I am committing to setting it up and keeping it running for the whole year, regardless of how few people are interested, I don't think I'd be the only one who would think twice before making a nomination.

Also, by having so many different CATs, the discussion and group dynamics will be diluted. I won't read more CAT books just because there are more CATs, and I don't expect anyone else will, either, as a general rule. Which means we have the same number of readers talking about the same number of books in 8 different threads instead of only 3. I think that will discourage, rather than encourage, discussion among group members. And I expect that more than one CAT will peter out before the end of the year for lack of participation.

Let's concentrate our enthusiasm into fewer CATs and keep them active and vibrant. Next year, we'll choose new ones again.

> 53

I agree that having them all would be too many.

How many would be optimal?

I too would prefer to have a smaller number of CATs, just so the discussion won't get too diluted. However, I do like the variety and think it would be nice not to do the same CATs two years in a row. I'm fine with repeating the RandomCAT, since that one is varied by its very nature, but I would be happy doing, for example, GeographyCAT and MysteryCAT this year, and then taking them out of the running for 2015 CATs so that we can try some of the others.

I totally agree with #53 and #55.

I'm also leaning toward fewer CATs, simply because participation does not indicate that there are enough people to keep more than a few CATs alive and vibrant. We had around 40 people voting on the CATs, and not everyone will participate every month. Some will participate only once or twice and a few won't get around to it at all. With three, there were always a few people trying for a CATtrick, but with eight, there'd be no impetus to do that.

There's a fair amount of work involved in running a CAT, which would not be worth it for just a few people. And the conversations -- would they be enhanced by more CATs or diminished? Are we all willing to commit to more than "CATs are optional"? Realistically, I'm not, although I always have good intentions. Is everyone here willing to pitch in and help out? Again, it's a question of having the time throughout the year.

Remember that there are also the Group Reads. It's a lot for a smaller group to handle.

I'll go with whatever we all decide as a group and I'll be happy with it. If we do eight, it will certainly be a test of how much time we all are willing to put into the Challenge and if we only do two or four, then there will be openings next year for CATs that didn't make it this year.

Life had got in the way and I haven't been here for a few days but I like the idea of less and then dropping them from the list of possibilities the next year. I use them to help me read books that might be languishing on my TBR pile while still keeping up with my own challenge.

I like the idea of no more than 4 CATS at the max, 3 seems just about right to me. I would volunteer for at least one RandomCAT, and probably one or two MysteryCATs.

I also try to use the CATS to reduce my TBR pile and also complete my own challenge.

Is the voting on the different CATS still open? If so, the numbers voting for any particular CAT will probably change, and there's a good possibility that the order of the ranking might change.

No, we're now voting on how many CATs to have. We have to keep moving if we want to get the CATs set up and running before the new year.

But please stick around and take part in all future votes. Your voice is valuable.

I am also of the opinion that three (or four) is the best number of Cats per year. I really like the idea in #55, that we switch out the Cats and have different ones every year.

I voted to have all the CATs, but the more recent arguments seem logical too! (I just might be too easily led....) However, I also agree with 55 about having different ones each year.

I think this whole voting process is faulty. The purpose should be to gauge interest in each CAT. I don't know about the rest of you, but I would be interested in 5 of the 8 CATs, but I didn't vote yes on all 5, because there were some I wanted more than others and I wanted to make sure the ones I liked the most "made the cut."

I feel like the GenreCAT was grossly misrepresented. It was never intended to be a different genre every month. By the time I saw the mistake that night, about a dozen people had already voted no. I would have voted no too if I thought it was a different genre every month. When I pointed out the mistake and even offered alternate pros and cons, it wasn't corrected. Instead, I was asked to provide more information - information that was readily available on the previous thread. I felt like my CAT suggestion was being set up to fail, so I decided not to waste any more of my time and I didn't respond. But then some more people voted yes, and there were 5 undecided voters, so I felt I owed it to the 5 of them to try once more. So I responded in depth and one undecided changed to yes, and the mistake in the description still wasn't corrected even after I asked for it to be, and then voting was closed the next day. I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but I'm feeling more than a little frustrated here.

So to get back to the question of how many CATs we should have - however many we can sustain. Like I said before, they are Take It Or Leave It CATs - not Take What You Want and Tell Everyone Else They Can't Do What They Want CATs. If half the people voting want a CAT, it should be in. I don't see how that would dilute the discussions. And I don't see how giving people fewer options would improve discussions - if I'm not interested in a particular CAT, I'm not going to participate just because you take away my other choices.

I still don't get the MysteryCAT. I don't understand why reading Agatha Christie one month would be part of a CAT and not a group read. Looking at it from the outside, it looks kind of cliquish. And I guess I was trying to break into the clique with the SubgenreCAT. And maybe that's what somebody meant about not wanting to "diluting" the discussion - you just want to talk mysteries - but maybe not everyone feels that way. I know if someone suggested an SFFCAT, I'd be like, "sign me up!" but then if they were like, "we're going to read Jordan this month and Asimov that month," I'd be like, "when are we going to get to the vampires?"

So here's my proposal:

We consider this the preliminary round of voting. GeographicCAT & RandomCAT are obviously in and we can get started planning those.
We have further discussions about MysteryCAT, Subgenre/ThemeCAT (not calling it GenreCAT), HistoryCAT, DeweyCAT, and if people feel the need, AwardCAT, & AlphaCAT. Then we vote again on those 6 categories and if a category gets 1/2 the votes, then it's in. As it stands now, that would be MysteryCAT & HistoryCAT - but the other CATs would have a fair chance if there is enough interest. We have 11 weeks before the end of the year. If we spend 2 weeks discussing and 1 week voting, that still leaves 8 weeks for the final set up.

I'm sorry I messed up BookLizard. I'll leave the rest of the organizing to you. There's a fair amount of effort involved, but you'll clearly do a better job than I have. If you'd like to just open a new thread and start over that's fine.

My intention was to open things up and that we would discuss what we wanted and make that decision as a group. Any time a group of people works together no one will get everything they want but the results, especially when everyone works together in good faith, is often something better than any individual could come up with.

Everyone read both threads, which were open to anyone to post. I'm not perfect and put together descriptions from what a variety of people posted on each CAT. BookLizard, I know you feel a sense of ownership over one of the CATs, but when I posted it for voting, I included anything and everything I found posted on that CAT in that thread. I was unaware that there were specific things you wanted and did not want and that it had to only include your views on the CAT. Please go ahead and when you post descriptions for each CAT, restrict that CAT to your views alone. It may well be best that way.

That people are now upset and unhappy was not my intention. I did not intend to force people to do anything. I apologize and withdraw.

>65 RidgewayGirl: You've been doing a great job and we all appreciate it. Chalk it up to the difficulties of communicating in this medium and keep doing the excellent job!

After reading over all the comments I went back to my original vote, which was for 3 CATs. Never having participated in one before every proposal sounded good to me.

What I would like to see is 1) a decision on how many to have, then 2) everyone take a couple of days after we see how many people want and then leave, or change, their vote for the ones they would like to participate in and 3) after a couple of days of that it's done.

So, if everyone said three was the number they would like to do, I would go in and vote for the three CATs I like most. Then after a couple of days the 3 CATs with the most votes are the three and after that I can participate in the ones I like of the three, after all I wouldn't participate in Dewey even if everyone else in the challenge wanted it!

And I don't think that there is anything wrong with someone setting up a challenge on their own that they organize. They post it and whoever is interested signs on. It doesn't take anything away from the CAT challenge.

I'd send you our beautiful Indian Summer day, if I could, to cheer you up.

PS - What I mean is - I don't want to spend two more weeks discussing this. Let's do some voting and get it settled, please.

65> I suspect trying to get a group as disparate as this to agree on what and how many CATs to run next year is akin to getting cats to walk in line - well nigh impossible. And the means of communication don't actually help in that process.

It needed someone to take the lead, and you've taken that on. I would say it's better to carry on and if the means does not suit everyone, well someone else can take it on next year.

Hi Kay:

I just wanted to say that I appreciated your taking the lead in getting us organized for 2014 and thought you did a great job. Nothing is ever going to be perfect for everyone, that's just life. The nature of the CAT's are that they are optional and supposed to be fun.

All of the people who had worked on organizing the CATs have done a great job so far. I'm just grateful there are people doing it, and I recognize that the process can be difficult and it'll be impossible to get consensus.

I'd be OK with (actually, rather hoping that) someone would just arbitrarily choose a number and the names of the CATs based on what's been learned so far. I'll be happy to go with those, even if they're not the ones I'd hoped for and even if the process if flawed.

I run several book clubs, and there are complicated processes for nominating and voting on books, and in the end, most people tell me they want me to simply take the suggestions into account and then choose something ... anything ... so we can carry on with the reading.

Please remember this is just a fun, voluntary activity on top of the main challenge. I'm hoping that we choose a few "official" CATs, but if other people start additional CAT threads they're willing to maintain, I'm sure that's not going to be a big deal. If a CAT was inadvertently overlooked or misrepresented, then I expect it'll be one of the contenders for the 2015 challenge

BTW, BookLizard, I hope GenreCAT is one of the choices for 2015, but I'd be even more happy if your other suggestion (SFFCAT, including vampires!) were adopted. :)

Well, there are certainly flaws in the voting process, but then I'm not sure how to get around them.

BookLizard, I'm sorry you feel as if we're cliquish. I think we're just trying to do a lot here, and it gets a bit confusing. I'm sorry there was confusion on your GenreCAT. Maybe it was the name that confused everyone? It sounds more like a themeCAT than a GenreCat to me when you describe it. (And I freely admit 'genre' is very confusing to me, as so many books (to ME) don't seem to fit the genres publishers put them into.)

Ridgeway Girl, hang in there. You're doing your best, and we all make mistakes. The fact you are willing to take this on is fabulous.

So it looks like Three CATs is the consensus view. Once we decide that is what we're going with, perhaps a revote on the various CATs to make sure the most popular are the ones chosen?

I really appreciate all the work that you have done RidgewayGirl to get this organized. It is impossible to please everyone. However, since the initial votes on the categories was not weighed (which would have added a lot more complexity), I suggest deciding on a number of CATs, and then revoting as majkia has suggested.

I would be in favor of three CATS and then, to be fair to everyone, a revote as suggested above (with updated descriptions) to choose the most popular ones for 2014. Then for 2015 go with a different set as has also been suggested.

RidgewayGirl, you have been doing a great job with the organizing so just carry on.

I'd like to make a suggestion about the voting process.
Since there are only 3 options when you vote use the votes in this way:

Yes = I would definitely participate in
No = I wouldn't participate in at all
Undecided = Interested in but not my top 3-4

By designating Undecided as a CAT that you might like, it would be a second level of voting. It could be used for a tiebreaker if the YES votes were the same.

#64 Of course this process is faulty - what human invention isn't? I agree that the initial vote on each of the proposed CATs was a gauge of interest. I was also interested in about 5 of the 8 CATs - interested enough to want to take part in any (not all) of them. And so I voted YES on those 5. It was a vote on which CATs we wanted, not how many. When you protested that the GenreCAT, as described, wasn't as you had intended it, you were invited to provide more information and an example of how it would look. It was 10 days before you provided that example. In the meantime, lots of voting happened. Without your input, I had to make a decision based on the information we already had and voted accordingly. I still don't get the MysteryCAT, either, and did not vote YES on that one as a result, even though I love mysteries.

I don't think the group's failure to immediately embrace your proposal is due to cliquishness, and that is not what I meant when I talked about the discussion being diluted. I think our failure to jump on the GenreCAT bandwagon has more to do with not clearly understanding what you were suggesting - and the initial title you gave it did nothing to dispel that confusion. Even with complete understanding, it might not have gained a majority support. (See my DeweyCAT as an example of that.) We are dealing with a diverse group of people here, and it's important to gain a consensus in order to move ahead. To me, that means that no one will be completely happy but that most of us should feel like we can live with the situation.

I missed the bit about the voting period closing on CATs, and actually went back and changed some of my votes in light of additional information and discussion. I suggest that it be left open until after we decide how many CATs to have. Then list the standings again and possibly do a run-off vote for the last spot or two, assuming that there will be one or two clear "winners". Any CATs that do not make the cut for 2014 should automatically be considered again for 2015. I like the idea of not carrying forward more than one CAT from one year to the next.

Booklizard, just because we might decide to not adopt your suggestion, that doesn't mean that we don't value your input into the decision process. I hope you'll join me in encouraging RidgewayGirl in coming back to her post as facilitator.

My take on the CAT challenge is that they are meant to be fun extras and provide a thread where we can indulge in even more bookish discussions. The TIOLI aspect means there is no pressure, and I think if we adopt the idea that every year we will change the CATs then we can look forward to lots of variety.

I think we all have to bear in mind that we are all going to be working on up to 14 categories next year with our own category challenge. I know a lot of people like to mesh their CAT reading with their own categories if possible and since so many of us are already reading mysteries it is natural that a mystery CAT will be popular.

At times this is a difficult medium to express yourself in, but I think Kay is doing a great job, and I hope she will continue. Unfortunately in a group as varied as we are, there are going to be bumps along the way. I think finalizing the number of CATS and then a revote is a good idea. Overall I think we should pat ourselves on the back for all the advance planning that we are getting done.

@RidgewayGirl: You've done a fantastic job with this and put it a lot of effort and I for one would prefer if you didn't withdraw.

@BookLizard: Sorry you feel run over, I don't think anyone meant to misrepresent anything intentionally.

I know I'm not able to be on LT every day and sometimes conversations take a new course that might have been different had I been there to comment, but that means I'll have to follow the new course, that's just how it is with the intraweb.

I'm with Judy, the CATs are a fun extra to me and not any sort of competition, especially since I try to read off of Mt. TBR. I also know I'd find them a bit more interesting if we rotate and have 3 (or whichever number) different ones each year (Random can come back every year in my mind since change is inherent in its setup).

I appreciate what Kay has done to facilitate this year's CATs and to launch the discussion about next year's CATs. I too hope that she'll be willing to continue in that capacity. I loved this year's CATs, especially the AwardsCAT, but I'm aware I'm probably in the minority for that one. It's one of my top 3 choices for next year, but it looks like it won't make the cut. However, there's nothing to prevent me from using award winners to fill in a category or two in my own challenge next year, or choosing an award winner that fits one or more of the CATs that we end up with next year. I have a long list of books that I didn't manage to fit into this year's AwardsCATs that I would still like to read.

BookLizard, I'm sorry if I've expressed myself in any way that seems cliquish. I don't intend to exclude anyone, but I find it difficult to keep up with the many threads in this and the other LT groups I belong to. I did see and understand your Genre CAT explanation before I voted and still voted no mainly because I know there are some types of books I don't like, having tried them in the past, and I could foresee myself skipping more months than I would participate in. (For instance, I've already read all the legal novels I care to read in my lifetime.) I also voted no for the MysteryCAT even though mysteries are my favorite genre because mysteries don't appeal to everyone and I don't need the additional incentive to read them. It seems like I can find a way to squeeze a mystery into any category or challenge.

I think the suggestion to decide on the number of categories and then re-vote on the third (and following) spot(s) is a good idea. It seems like there was a lot of separation between the #2 and the #3 spots.

I didn't want to start a fight, which is why I didn't say anything at first. But I got upset when sallylou61 asked if she could still vote and was told no. I'm starting to feel like we're Congress, and I don't mean that in a good way.

I tried to say the "right" things - "I feel this . . ." & "I'm not accusing anyone of anything" but we all know that's BS. I'll take it up with RidgewayGirl in private messages. I think we just have different approaches - I like to have all the facts before I make a decision, and her attitude is "Just Do It!" Both approaches have their strengths and weaknesses and both are needed to get the job done.

I'm going to go through and respond to everyone, but it's going to take me some time. And I'm going to try to talk to RidgewayGirl and see if she'll come back. In the meantime, she suggested I take over the rest of the organizing. Fine. I'm not one to complain without offering solutions. I don't want everyone to be stuck in limbo because I offended our organizer.

I don't think we should vote on how many CATs to have. It's a Take It Or Leave It challenge, so we should ultimately be voting to take a CAT or leave it. Majority rules. But I don't want us voting on the CATs just yet, because I think there is still some stuff to figure out - particularly, what is a MysteryCAT and what is a GenreCAT and do we need both? (I don't know.)

The way the question was posed, was inherently wrong in 2 ways:

1) It wasn't asking how many CATs we should have, it was saying here's the ranking of CATs - if you want THESE two CATs vote for 2; if you want THESE three CATs, vote for 3; if you want THESE four cats, vote for 4.

2) The logic behind it was faulty. Let me show you an example, detached from the CAT to avoid any bias.

Rank and number of votes:

1. A - 0 votes
2. B - 2 votes
3. C - 7 votes
4. D - 4 votes
5. E - 3 votes
6. F - 1 vote
7. G - 1 vote
8. H - 1 vote

So the way the question was structured, #3 wins because 7 people voted for it. Yay for #3. Except that's not what most people wanted!
10 people wanted there to be more than 3 categories. (4+3+1+1+1=10). But the way the question was structured, was just another way of voting for the categories you wanted.

So here's my new proposal. At some point in the near future we vote on the CATs again. By voting for a CAT, you're agreeing to participate in it on a regular basis (however you define that.) Voting will close on a set date and time, so you can change your votes up until the end. Majority rules. If a majority of voters agree to participate in a CAT, it's in. If not, it's out.

Can we vote on that? Detached from any particular CATs. Detached from any particular number. Completely unbiased. Majority rules.

I think your own logic is a little bit faulty. There are 8 choices. Only one can "win". The chance of any one of them receiving a majority of the votes - if each person is limited to one vote - is slim. It we insist that the winning result must receive a majority of the votes, then we will be here a long time. We need to be satisfied with a plurality of votes - which choice receives more positive votes than any of the other choices. In your example, that is #3. Yay for #3.

How about we ask the original 8 questions again, and ask each person to choose the 2 options they would be happiest with. Taking both first and second choices into account, I think we'll see a clear preference for the option that most of us would be happy with.

ETA: The other reason I don't think we need to insist on a majority vote is that many of us will not end up being as active in the CATs as we hope to be. You said " By voting for a CAT, you're agreeing to participate in it on a regular basis (however you define that.)" Who is going to enforce that? You've just taken the "or leave it" part out of the equation.

80> I think I confused you. The example I gave was to show why I thought voting for a particular number of CATs ("lets only have 3 CATs even if there's a lot of interest in more than that") was a bad idea.

I wholeheartedly agree that we need to be satisfied with a plurality of votes - but NOT which choice receives more positive votes that any other choice. It should be whichever choices receive more positive votes than negative votes.

To bring it back to the real life example: The HistoryCAT currently has 22 yes, 11 no, and 2 undecided. We had figured out earlier that about 40 people were voting. So anyway you look at it, a majority of people WANT the HistoryCAT. Why wouldn't we want to include it? But under the system of voting for a certain number of CATs, it was ranked number 4 and would have been excluded. How does that make any sense?

When I voted that we should do all 8 categories, I didn't mean that I thought we should do all 8. It was a protest against the way the vote was being done. What I'm suggesting is that we take a free market approach. If there is enough demand for a CAT, (more than half of us are willing to participate), then it should be included. If there's not enough demand, (sorry AlphaCAT), then it's not. That way we are naturally selecting how many CATs we can sustain without diluting the discussion. Just because some people only want to participate in 3 CATs, doesn't mean we should only offer 3 CATs. They can take the 3 they want, and leave the other(s) to the rest of us.

No, I don't think you confused me. The problem, so to speak, is that some of us (well, me at least) voted to express an interest in far more CATs than I am willing to actually participate in. I am WILLING to participate in, say, HistoryCAT, GeographicCAT, AwardsCAT, or in RandomCAT. I would be happy with any of those - BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. So, just because I voted YES 4 or 5 times, it doesn't mean than I think we should do all 4 or 5 CATs.

It comes back to your statement that, by voting YES, I'm committing to participate in that CAT regularly. That is a new element. I won't know which CATs I'm willing to commit to until I know how many there will be. If there will only be 2, then I'll vote differently than if there are to be 4.

The problem, in my opinion, with having a "free market" of CATs is that it will soon cease to be a fun group activity. Everyone will go their own way, instead of sharing together the different ways a common challenge has been met. Don't forget that, regardless of whether your favorite CAT, or my favorite CAT, is selected, we each have the freedom to read whatever we want to. No one is constrained by the CATs. If I don't like one of them, I am absolutely free to ignore it - even if I voted for it in the first place. And you are free to read as many vampire books as you can stand, even if there is no CAT available to accommodate them. The whole point of the CATs is to give the group a shared experience, not to give us each our own experience - that is what our individual categories are for.

Look, I'm not going to argue any more about this. I've said my piece. You're driving this train now, and you'll do it the way you think is best. I think some of the problems up to now may have been due to unclear wording in the polls. Fix that, and let the group decide what it wants to do. I'll stick around and vote, but I'll try to keep quiet about it and not get in the way.

BookLizard and I have discussed things. She's willing to let me stay and participate in the discussion. There was a basic misunderstanding in what these threads were. She is regarding them as an adversarial debate and I was looking at the whole thing like a conversation among like-minded friends with a common interest. She's pointed out that my way of setting up the voting was essentially unfair to her and I've responded to that, but if someone can look at what I did and read bias into it, it was not as carefully worded as it should have been.

My favorite CAT lost in the voting, but as facilitator I didn't feel it was appropriate to argue strongly in its favor. Now I can. And I'm sure that BookLizard will have more time to put into this and will be much better at listening to everyone's views and taking every viewpoint into consideration. She'll be a conscientious and diligent facilitator and much better at putting together votes that aren't inherently unfair.

This has gotten to be way too much - not fun.

What I am going to do is to not vote and not discuss. I'll come back in 2014 and if there is a CAT I want to participate in I MIGHT.

One different approach I am now hearing is that one should commit to participating 'on a regular basis'. I thought CATs were a take it or leave it thing, meaning if one month you wanted to participate you could, but you didn't have to.

The Category Challenge is enough to keep me busy on 'a regular basis'.

Hope you all sort it out.

I'm uncomfortable with the change of a vote for a CAT being "I would be interested, if this were selected" to "I will commit to this CAT". I'm not prepared to commit to a year long reading schedule, so will step aside now.

I also find this turn of phrase She's willing to let me stay and participate in the discussion. disturbing. Are we now to be vetted before we can participate in the group, in a conversation or in the CATs? I didn't think that was the tone of the category challenge group.

No, BookLizard's not being exclusionary. Her point is that I was not allowing her views to be heard. She wants everyone to participate. I'm sure she'll be here soon and explain how she intends things to be run better than I could. I would not want to speak for her, as I have done so badly in the past. She's got a clear vision for how to run things in a way that is not unfair.

I would very much like the CATs to continue in what ever form makes people happiest. I loved facilitating the discussion so much and I am thankful to everyone who participated for giving me the very large benefit of trusting me. It was so much fun and think about how well the CATs went last year! Now someone wants to run things who has a clear vision instead of just an enjoyment of the process. Let's give her a chance to do a great job.

I've suggested changing our slogan from "CATs are optional", but let's wait for her to set up the new system. Trying new things can be hard, especially if the way we'd run things had been fun. But she made the point that she felt excluded from the discussion. Are there other people who aren't participating here because I didn't listen to all the voices? It was pointed out that closing one set of voting was a bad decision. How to continue to move forward, while being able to return to our earliest votes throughout the process is not something I can figure out how to make work. I think we need a greater skill level than mine to make a structure that allows for no deadlines to voting, while getting the CATs up and running soon so people can plan their reading.

And, honestly, I'm not interested in being a part of something contentious. BookLizard was sincerely unhappy with how I arranged and worded the voting. We couldn't come to an understanding that didn't involve starting over and she needs to be the one to choose the wording and set up of how the voting works in order to feel like she is not being misrepresented. Given her level of passion, I feel confident she'll put the time into keeping our CATs fun and functional.

I think we are overthinking this process and sadly, there are bad feelings as a result. In looking over the entire discussion, this is what I've been able to figure out:

- A lot of people like having 3 CATs.
- A lot of people are interested in a RandomCAT.
- A lot of people are interested in a MysteryCAT.
- A lot of people are interested in a GeographyCAT.

Isn't this information enough for us to make a good if not necessarily "the best" decision? Do "a lot of people" mean "a majority"? Possibly not, but does it really matter that much? Are these 3 CATs truly favoured over every other CAT? Maybe not, but any one that's been overlooked can be considered for 2015.

I propose we not worry about any more voting, since we've collected a good deal of information already, and just go with RandomCAT, MysteryCAT, and GeographyCAT. Anyone who really, really wants to add another CAT and is willing to maintain it should feel free to do so. Otherwise, it will be in the mix for 2015.

Come on, people, we're not voting for the president or prime minister here, just for some fun optional activities. If the process is slightly faulty (and I'm not sure if we can find the "perfect" process anyhow) but we still get some CAT activities at least as successful as they had been this past year, isn't that enough? :)

BookLizard, I understand your position on the number of CATs. Include as many as receive more yes than no votes. However, I find the reasons for limiting the number of CATS more persuasive, and it seems like I'm not alone. Sandy expressed this better than I could in #82.

I think everything just became super complicated and not so fun anymore. I think I'll check back later on just to see what's going on. I agree with #84, my own challenge is eno ugh to keep me busy on a regular basis

BookLizard> I have been out of town (and still am) and didn't check in yesterday. Look what trouble you have brewed. I understood each CAT and understood what you meant by the GenreCAT; however, I chose not to vote for it. I will say that I really only voted for one CAT--the one in which I was most likely to participate. I did mark undecided on a couple. There are some subgenres within genres that I am unlikely to read. In fact, that's one reason I did not really vote for the CAT that was representing my favorite genre.

With all that said, if Kay (RidgewayGirl) is not in charge of the CAT Challenge next year, I choose not to participate at all. She's the one who envisioned it. She's the one who organized it. She's the one who deserves to be in charge of it.

87> that sounds entirely reasonable to me.

I said I would try to work it out with RidgewayGirl in private and I will. I don't think anyone wants to listen to us fight, and I don't think it has a place on this thread. If any of you really want to know why I think she was being biased against certain CATs, send me a private message and I will direct you to the appropriate posts and tell you how I interpretted her comments and how they made me feel, and let you decide for yourself. I didn't want RidgewayGirl to leave, and I hope cooler heads will prevail and she'll come back.

More to follow . . .

Hoping things will work out for everyone.

> 87

This post pretty well expresses my views. Let's not over-complicate things!

I don't understand how one person has changed this whole concept from a fun extra into a dictatorship. I totally agree with post #87, I think we are getting derailed from the original concept and need to move ahead, not keep going over and over everything.

I deleted my last 2 messages as, on further consideration, I felt I was overstepping. I will go back to keeping quiet and staying out of the way.

Carry on.

I think Paulina and I cross-posted this morning so I missed her cooments in #87 earlier. I agree with what she said.

I became involved with this year's CATs because they were fun and optional. Reading is my primary stress-reducing activity. When a reading activity starts adding stress instead of reducing it, it's time for me to back off.

I just want the voting process to be fair and transparent. I thought that we wanted as many people as possible to participate in the CATs. Was I wrong about that?

When RidgewayGirl opened the voting thread, she said voting would be open for "a few weeks" but then closed it in less than 2. She said she was giving people a day to finalize their votes, then gave them 5 hours before effectively closing the voting on the CATS. I understand that she was just trying to be efficient, but I think she unintentionally disenfranchised some people who would have liked a chance to finalize their decisions.

I would like us all to consider the voting so far as preliminary voting. I think we should have a revote and that people should know ahead of time what exactly it is they're voting for and exactly when the voting closes so they can change their minds before the deadline if they want. I also strongly feel that the decision on how many CATs to have needs to be made independently from the voting on which CATS to have.

The voting so far has given us a gauge of the interest levels for each CAT. This is how I see it breaking down:

GeographyCAT & RandomCAT - clearly high interest
MysteryCAT & HistoryCAT - lots of interest
GenreCAT & AwardCAT - some interest
DeweyCAT & AlphaCAT - less interest

Option 1: If a majority of people are willing to participate in a CAT regularly, it's in. We would revote for as few or as many CATs as we felt we could participate in on a regular basis.

So sjmccreary, you said you were interested in History, Geography, Awards, and Random, but not all of them. So now you see that fewer people are interested in the AwardsCAT. So maybe this round you don't vote for that. If you think you can handle 3 CATS, you vote for the other 3 or if you only can commit to 2, you vote for the 2 you want most. And you can go back and change your vote at any time up until the previously agreed upon closing time. The way the preliminary voting looks, the top 4 CATs would be included. But you would know going in to the voting that you were only voting for the ones you thought you would participate in on a regular basis. As always, we can't enforce your participation, but maybe you'd participate more if there were more viable options. Maybe you'd just vote for History & Geography and still occasionally participate in Random. So you'd be participating in 3 CATs, whereas if it was just the top 3 and History didn't make the cut, you'd only participate in 2.

Option 2: We decide to have just a certain number of CATS, no matter what they may be, and then vote for just that number of CATS.

So if it we decided to have 3 CATs, everyone would revote for 3. And they could change their mind up until the previously agreed upon closing time. So if I had voted for Alpha, Dewey, and Geography and saw that Alpha wasn't likely to win, I could change my vote to History, And maybe if enough people did that, Mystery would be out and History would be in, and everyone would be OK with that because they had agreed ahead of time that 3 was the right number of CATs to have, no matter what those CATs ended up being.

Edited to change "several weeks" to "a few weeks" and to remove "in the middle of the night" in consideration of different time zones.

I think either of those options sound reasonable. This year I discovered that I could only manage two CATs at best, as I commit myself to the reading through time group also (which I happily recommend to anybody interested in the historyCAT - we are currently considering our December choice if anyone would like to join in). Therefore I would be happy to vote only for two if we went with option one.

Is the plan to set up a vote between option one and option two and then continue from there?

Also, I would like to acknowledge the effort that goes into organising these threads. So thanks to both RidgewayGirl and Booklizard for their efforts.

101> My plan is to try to work things out privately with RidgewayGirl but since we're both upset and on different continents, that may take a little bit.

I set up a poll in post #79. A yes vote in that poll would be a vote for Option One.

May I ask how long the poll in #79 will be open? Since one of the criticisms of the previous voting is that people should know exactly when the voting closes, it seems like people should know exactly when the voting will close in this instance. I apologize if it's already there and I've overlooked it, but I've re-read the messages that reference this poll and I'm not seeing a deadline anywhere.

103> Thanks. You're right. I'm working on a response to everyone and I'll include a closing date.

ETA: Actually, I'll just edit this post.

Voting will close at 11:59 p.m. EST on Saturday, October 19.

The poll is in #79.

A yes vote is a vote for Option One, as described in #100.

If you vote yes, please go back to the voting on the number of CATs to have (#28 - #35) and change your vote to reflect the number of CATs you think we should have if this Option fails to pass.

A no vote is a vote for Option Two, as described in #100.

If you vote no, please go back to the voting on the number of CATs to have (#28 - #35) and change your vote to reflect the number of CATs you think we should have with the understanding that it may not be GeographyCAT, RandomCAT, and MysteryCAT.

*** Edited to add "EST" to the closing time for the vote and to change the instructions on the yes vote from "simply cancel your vote there" to "change your vote to reflect the number of CATs you think we should have if this Option fails to pass." ***

66> What I would like to see is 1) a decision on how many to have, then 2) everyone take a couple of days after we see how many people want and then leave, or change, their vote for the ones they would like to participate in and 3) after a couple of days of that it's done.

That's what I'd like to see, too. I'm just asking that we first decide how to decide on how many, then based on that decision, we revote knowing what our vote means.

67> I don't want to spend two more weeks discussing this. Let's do some voting and get it settled, please.

I hear you. I don't think the CATs need more discussing, just the voting.

71> I hope we can work out the flaws as a group without anyone feeling disenfranchised. I know "cliquish" has a negative connotation because of all the mean girl cliques in high school, but cliques can just be who you choose to sit with in the cafeteria because you share common interests.

72> . . . since the initial votes on the categories was not weighed (which would have added a lot more complexity), I suggest deciding on a number of CATs, and then revoting as majkia has suggested.

I'm pretty sure I agree with you. I just want to figure out how we can best decide on the number - which option will make the most people happy and likely to participate.

73> I would be in favor of three CATS and then, to be fair to everyone, a revote as suggested above (with updated descriptions) to choose the most popular ones for 2014.

Sounds reasonable to me. I just want to make sure that people who voted for 3 understand that it may not necessarily be Geography, Random, and Mystery.

74> Interesting. I think we might be past that at this point, but it's worth considering. That might be the way to do it next year.

75> Thank you. Whether you realize it or not, you really helped me clarify my thoughts. And thanks for removing those unflattering posts about me before I saw them. LOL. I've taken up my issues about the GenreCAT with RidgewayGirl in private. This is really about the way the voting on the CATs was closed and the way the voting on the number of CATs was being conducted.

I missed the bit about the voting period closing on CATs, and actually went back and changed some of my votes in light of additional information and discussion. I suggest that it be left open until after we decide how many CATs to have. Then list the standings again and possibly do a run-off vote for the last spot or two, assuming that there will be one or two clear "winners".

That's all I wanted. (OK, no - I wanted people to vote for GenreCAT instead of MysteryCAT, but THAT's not gonna happen. LOL.)

This is getting to be novel-length, so I'm going to wrap it up for now. I'm sorry this has turned into such a brouhaha. I just felt like the voting process on the CATs was closed prematurely and wanted to call for a timeout. I hope I've addressed your concerns, even if I didn't address you personally.

#104 Let's not change our votes in #28-35 until after poll #79 has closed. If option #2 wins, then those who voted for #1 should still be entitled to vote. If option #1 wins, there is no reason to re-vote at all.

>104 BookLizard: Thanks for the update. Since we're not all in the same time zone, which time zone is the official one for the closing of the voting? Would you please update your post to reflect that?

107> Thanks. Done.

106> Working on a lengthier response to you, but I made a change to the instructions which I hope will address your concerns about everyone getting a chance to vote while still taking into consideration other people's requests to move as quickly as possible.

Thanks! And is the deadline for changing your vote on the number of CATs (#28-35) the same as the deadline for the vote in #79?

109> I think I feel comfortable agreeing to that unless you can think of a reason it should be otherwise?

Edited to fix #

106> There is a need to revote either way, because that's what this whole firestorm was really about: 1.) The fact that the voting on the CATs was closed without warning; and 2.) the way voting for the number of CATs was tied to the CATs themselves.

You said yourself that you went back and changed some of your votes in light of additional information and discussion (#75). Everyone should have the opportunity to finalize their votes in light of the new information.

Here's the thing - we talk about "voting" but the first round was really a poll to gauge interest in the various topics. And it worked beautifully - we know which topics people were most interested in. But now we need to figure out which of those topics people will actually participate in. Because, like you, some people may have initially voted for several that they'd be happy with, but in reality, they'd only be able to handle two. Or other people only voted for the ones they really wanted to "win," but they would participate in others if they were offered.

Quite a few people have pointed out the "Take It Or Leave It" aspect of the challenge and object to being asked to make a commitment. I can understand why you would not want to be held accountable for what you voted for in the past, because you were merely expressing interest. And I understand that we can't enforce the commitment in the future. But why would you object to telling us now whether you think you will take a topic or leave it? Especially when you can change your mind at any point. The beauty of this polling system is that it's transparent and you can change your vote. We can all see which way the voting is going and can change our own votes accordingly. That's how we reach consensus - by seeing that our first choice isn't being widely accepted and making a different choice instead, and doing that again if needed until we're satisfied with the results. And because it's transparent, and we know ahead of time what we're voting for, we can all be satisfied, if not happy, with the results.

When we revote, things may change. Right now, Random is in the lead, but is that because everyone wants it or because everyone is willing to live with it? I've seen people say they'd like 3 new topics every year (and some of those same people say that Random doesn't count because it's different every year anyway.) If Option 1 wins, I'll vote for Random - if it doesn't, I most likely won't.

Well, one fundamental principle initially decided on when the CATs were being designed was that they are entirely optional. Our slogan is "CATs are optional", meaning that any vote or involvement in any part of this process in no way implies any requirement or expectation of further involvement. If you dislike this, please put it up for a vote, but it has been, up until now, an integral part of the CATs. I suspect that some of the confusion is caused by the sudden change to a fundamental part of the CATs without discussion, rather than unhappiness with being asked to make a decision.

Also, I'm confused by the different wording on the actual voting in post 79 and the subsequent changes, often subtle, that you've made. Could you please make sure that what we're voting on is clear? Maybe a statement and a vote in the same post, rather than changing your intention as you go? Putting one thing on the vote and something different several posts later is confusing and unclear. It can also result in people voting for one thing only for their vote to have different meaning later on. I'm unclear on how that's a better system from the one you had to step in and fix?

Just wanted to say goodbye before I unstar the thread. I won't be participating in the CATs next year since I don't like what has just transpired and have no desire to participate under anyone but Kay as administrator.

>110 BookLizard:. There was no clear deadline given for changing your vote on the number of CATs. It doesn't matter to me whether the deadline is the same as that of the vote in #79 or if a few extra days are allowed once the outcome of the vote in #79 is known. Since one of the objections to the first round of voting is that polls were closed without warning, I think the instructions for voting should be clear about when the voting will end.

>112 RidgewayGirl: Our slogan is "CATs are optional", meaning that any vote or involvement in any part of this process in no way implies any requirement or expectation of further involvement. If you dislike this, please put it up for a vote, but it has been, up until now, an integral part of the CATs.

I'll second this request. If a "yes" vote to any category is going to mean that I'm committing myself to participating in that challenge every month (rather than skipping a month or two if I don't have any TBRs that fit that month's category), then I'll change my vote to "no" on everything. Those who are willing to commit to participating in a CAT every month and can comfortably vote "yes" can decide which CATs we'll have next year. If there's a CAT that interests me in a month I might participate. If there isn't, I won't. If I haven't committed myself to participating, no one should have a problem with that.

I don’t have a clue what we are voting for now. All this voting and re-voting seems to be a big waste of time. Plus now we have BookLizard “tweaking” the wording of the vote and this is happening after many have already voted.

We did a basic “majority rules” vote and came up with a list of favorites. We voted on the number of CATS we wanted and again came to a clear majority with our answer of 3.

Mathgirl in Post 87 yesterday summarized our results and suggested we carry on from there. A few of us then posted that we agreed with her but so far BookLizard hasn’t acknowledged this post. I am left with the feeling that she only sees her own agenda.

Instead of all this confusing voting and re-voting, I propose we accept the original vote, bring back the original facilitator, and start working on a plan for each of the three CATS.

Booklizard, this firestorm that you mentioned in Post 111 appears to be of your own making. You talk of transparency but I am finding this whole thing very shady. Now we are having members turn away. We’ve gone from one person being disgruntled to a lot of us feeling that way.

I'm saying goodbye as well. I hope it all works out for everyone, but for me, the spirit and fun of the CATs have been lost. There's enough complication s in life without my reading becoming complicated too!

RG told me that she's been talking privately with some members who are very upset (and understandably so). I have a feeling that I know who some of these members are. I have reached out privately to one of you to ask if you would be willing to act as a mediator between us.

115> I'm sorry I didn't acknowledge Post 87 directly. I only got down as far as 75 last night, and a lot has happened between then. The way I see it, a lot of people don't care and just want this thing settled. But other people do care and a lot of people would like to see a revote.

I've been trying my best to keep the thread on topic and focused on the discussion of voting. If people are leaving, it's because they don't want to listen to arguments and accusations. I'm hoping we can settle any arguments privately and get back to discussing the books we all love. I readily admit to lighting the spark that set off this firestorm, but I think the tinder was already there, and others have been fanning the flames. I don't want to do so.

BookLizard, I'm sorry you are still so upset. Can you please, at least here in the thread, stay on topic? If you take a few minutes to read this thread, this is where people are expressing dissatisfaction. It is frustrating to see how they post their concerns only to have you brush them off or ignore them entirely. Your comments to me were that I didn't pay enough attention to you and that I should have been able to intuit that the information you wanted me to repost was not the information you had just provided, but something from a previous thread that you were unwilling to identify specifically. And yet you've refused to listen to everyone, or respond or alter anything based on what anyone had said. You've got an idea that you're pushing without concern for anyone else.

This is ridiculous. I've been careful to avoid saying anything in public because it's not what people are here for. I apologized, let you do things because you were certain that I was doing a terrible job on purpose. Look, this isn't easy, as I hope you now see. I can't imagine how hard it would be to facilitate this with an agenda that I felt was more important than anyone here.

We can't keep revisiting your grievances. I've apologized. I've kept out of things as people left in disgust. It's time to stop this. This is not fun or constructive.

A simple series of votes. 48 hours.

I said I was going to talk discuss this anymore but I am going to.

BookLizard, I think you are missing a BIG point. I have "left" (2014 was going to be my first CAT Challenge) exactly because I don't want to listen to arguments and accusations.

If you reread the posts (from 65 on) everyone is saying "I'm fine, lets get on with it) The only person crying "foul" "woe is me" "you're not doing it right and I can do better" is you.

People take part in these challenges for fun, relaxation and thoughtful kind words between participants. It has instead turned into an dirty war of words, especially on your part.

I don't think anyone wants to say these things to you so bluntly, but enough is enough. Your insisting on redoing all this YOUR way is driving people away. We all have enough stress in life without this.

I think you should graciously and openly, ask Ridgeway Girl to take this project back and add that you will love to take part in it, no matter how the votes go.

Now I am going away until I see that this is over.

112> I agree that having everything on one thread would be better. I'll send you a private message and hopefully we can work out the best way to do that. Two minds are better than one.

125> That's an easy one, NO! :-)

Anything else we need to just figure out where everyone stands? If there's something else you think there should be a vote on, go ahead and post it. We are all equal participants. One last thing:

Please let's just move on. All the drama over whether I'm ever going to get paid, or if my invested money will have meaning after the 17th is quite enough drama for me.

119> Please send me a private message and tell me exactly what I have said - not what someone else has said that I said.

I think BookLizard has created enough problems for one year.

RidgewayGirl was doing a fine job of arranging a fun, optional read. She should be allowed to continue without this carping.

"I'm out of it for a little while, everyone gets delusions of grandeur!"
10 pts to whoever can name the quote!
But seriously, I can't believe I came back from hiatus to this mess. I hope the friends who have said they are leaving will remain in the group. I have missed you all. Please stay.

I believe it was spoken by Hans Solo in Star Wars. Solo is the keyword. Two minds are not always better than one (see #123).

133> "Any time a group of people works together no one will get everything they want but the results, especially when everyone works together in good faith, is often something better than any individual could come up with " (see #65). I'd like to believe this is true.

Re vote on 128: I am glad that RidgewayGirl is willing to take this back. BookLizard should respect the request in 119, and let Ridgeway do the coordinating.

Since BookLizard mentioned in #117 that she had asked one of us to act as mediator between her and RidgewayGirl, I want to let everyone know that she asked me to do that. I didn't agree to take on that role. In my response to her, I said that "while I think it's a good idea to try to resolve misunderstandings and hurt feelings privately, I don't think a private resolution of how to organize the CATs is desirable". That discussion needs to be public, but it's already gone on too long. I think there seems to be a consensus for 3 CATs (geography, random, and mystery) and that we'd like RidgewayGirl to continue to facilitate the CATs in 2014. It would be nice if that consensus could be unanimous, but I think we'll have to live with one person's objections.

>136 cbl_tn: I've been pretty well silent on this thread, but have been lurking on it throughout the drama. I just want to see all of this cleared up; so I think your suggestion is sensible.

#136 - Well said Carrie. This has been unfortunate but let's move on.

I think #136 is onto a winner. Maybe we should vote on that??

#137 Miela - Ditto - every word.

Post 136

Yes,yes,yes!

Time to move on.

Moving on,

Do we want to do a "lessons learned" dissection? I'm sensing a big "NO", but I will say that RidgewayGirl is really bad at handling open conflict. Sports team analogy bad.

And votes should come with deadlines. I've noticed that over 90% of our voting occurs during the first day and while we could probably get things done rapidly, having our voting go for 2 days is probably the best compromise between speed and making sure people get a say. We did a good job in spreading the word about how the organizing of the CATs was going on, so I'm confident that people know about it. Two days means someone is not omitted because work got busy or a child got sick, but that if you want a say, you'll have to make the effort to log in every few days for the duration of planning. I'm not sure we're the kind of group to be good at counting down minutes, but let's aim for two day windows of voting.

Is this something that needs to be voted on? Do we need rules? I'd think that some incidental votes could take less and some votes might want to sit there awhile. On the other hand, voting on this doesn't slow us down or detract from moving forward.

We won't count votes until tomorrow afternoon, but we can start thinking about our CAT threads. Please note that discussing a few things does not imply nor endorse a specific path. It may well be a waste of a discussion. But it does give us something fun to talk about.

The RandomCAT

This may be the easiest to set up because we've done it before. But there are a few things to consider.

1. Do you want to lead a month? I'll say that it was a blast to come with an idea and the work involved is no more onerous than opening a thread and coming up with an enticing description. Think about whether you'd be interested and, if so, which months would work best? For those of you who have led a month, let us know what you thought of the experience.

2. There's a tension in this CAT between those who like to plan their reading ahead of time (I know! And on a cataloging website in a challenge that asks us to categorize our reading ahead of time!) and those who like to read more spontaneously. We had just relegated this to the "well, nobody's going to be happy with everything" side of things, but I think I've come up with a possible solution. See if you can, too, or at least be aware of how you prefer to do things.

3. We did this CAT last year. Are there changes you'd like to make to it? What did you like or dislike?

GeoCAT or GeographyCAT

1. Which name do you prefer?

2. Which places do you want represented? How do you think it would be most logical/fun to do this? The world's our oyster here. There were some good ideas, along with a few very thoughtful ideas on the best way to cover the ground, so to speak. It's time to pull those out again and take another look. Do we want to be broad or narrow in our locations? Where would you like to read about? Would you prefer to have a large area, like "North America" to choose from, or something more focused, like "Pacific Coast", "the Great Lakes" or even "New Orleans"?

3. The structure of the CAT: do we want to just state a place and get going? Would it enhance our reading to have different people introduce different places? Maybe with reading suggestions or information and links? What do you think? If no, why not? How would you like each month's location introduced? If yes, would you like to lead a month? What are your ideas?

MysteryCAT

1. This is the least defined CAT, which gives us a lot of flexibility to do whatever we want. What do you want from this CAT? I've heard a few ideas, from using it to read the works of the "greats" of mystery writing, like Agatha Christie and Rex Stout, to taking a sub-genre each month, like Noir or Cozies. But don't fence things in yet -- what would you like to do?

2. If you like mysteries, think about what would excite you to do. I think that many of us gravitate toward certain kinds of crime novels. Would you even be interested in reading outside your normal parameters? Would you want to read the "classics" of the genre? Explore odd corners? And if mysteries aren't your thing, do you have ideas on how to make this into something you'd like to take a look at?

3. How do we want to introduce each month? Would it be useful to have someone post entertaining information about a month's theme? Links to related topics? Background information? Depending on the topic, would you consider leading a month?

We have more than a few fun discussions ahead of us. And there are a lot of great ideas knocking around. Let's start to pull them out and talk them over. Tell us what would interest you. Tell us what would get you to participate and what would bore or irritate you. Go ahead and have opinions.

*RandomCAT
I would be happy to lead a month, but if others are desperately keen to do so I am happy just to participate. Any month would be fine with me. As I am not much of a planner when it comes to reading, I am more the whatever I am in the mood for type of reader, I really love the randomness of this CAT.
I guess if there are some serious planners out there maybe the idea/theme could be revealed earlier than it was this year and those who like to plan can look at the thread early and those who like to be spontaneous could look at it later. This would probably work best if everybody agreed not to make any posts on the thread after the announcement until one week before the start of the month. Otherwise, the sponaneous people may feel like they are missing out on something and look early too. Or something along those lines. I'm sure that thought could be refined a bit more.

*GeoCAT
I prefer GeoCAT, it is quicker to type.
I hope we have a global flavour to this CAT. I would like the chance to vote on the locations that are selected here. I would also like to suggest that we select a country (there are almost 200 in the world and we only have 12 months). A question - would the book have to be set in the country/location, or would the author have to come from that country/location, or either?
I think it would be great if we have a group member that comes from the country selected or has visited that country that would be happy to lead the month (might be tricky). I would love to have a bit of information about the country selected provided through links. People might have interesting things to share about certain locations. Once again, I'll have a go at leading if we are short on volunteers (keeping in mind I live in Australia and the only other country I have been to is New Zealand).

*MysteryCAT
I only read the occasional mystery so I probably would be a minor participant in this CAT. I will stay out of the decision making process for this one.

1. I did a month this year and loved doing it. So maybe someone else would like a turn.

2. GeoCat

3. when I first mentioned MysteryCat I envisioned more types of mysteries than different authors, which would give our non mystery readers more of a chance to find a matching book. A LOT of genres have mysteries at the heart of their plots. Things like: historical mystery, noir, locked room/puzzle, supernatural mystery, bibliomystery, medical mystery, academic setting, amateur detective... that sort of thing. But I'll certainly go with whatever the group wants.

ETA: for caffeine deprivation repair

I have a suggestion for mystery CAT. I don't know if author reads will have a part in it, but if so, perhaps we could choose 3 or 4 mystery authors who also write in other genres. Those who don't read mysteries could read something else by that author and still participate in that month's challenge, even though it technically wouldn't be a mystery CAT for them. Or maybe if it's an author they love they would be willing to give one of their mysteries a try. Some of the authors who come to mind are Georgette Heyer (known for her regency romances but also wrote several mysteries), Isaac Asimov (known for his science fiction but also wrote a few mysteries), and Ellis Peters/Edith Pargeter (wrote both historical mysteries and historical fiction).

I'm categorically confused
glitter-graphics.com

As a newbie, I'll just sit back and wait for the dust to settle

I hosted a Random CAT this year and had a problem because I had a great idea when I first said I'd do it and then had a brain freeze when my turn arrived and couldn't remember it and had to come up with a new idea. But it was fun.

GeoCAT

Mystery CAT
I would like see something along the lines of author/type maybe. There are also mystery writers that have several pseudonyms - maybe an author month for multiple names? I'd be willing to do that.

It's smooth sailing from here on out, Carmenere. Come on in, the water's fine. And as a newbie, you can look at things with fresh eyes. Tomorrow, if the voting trend holds, I'll be opening up the individual threads for each CAT and we'd love to get your opinion mixed in with everyone else's.

And that video is frighteningly accurate!

Multiple personalities certainly fits with the crime theme, cyderry.

One more thought for making the Mystery CAT more appealing to non-mystery readers. Perhaps a true crime month would have wider appeal. I'm thinking of it in a broad sense where it encompasses books like Destiny of the Republic and The Devil in the White City. With the 50th anniversary of Kennedy's assassination coming up next month, I'm sure there will be lots of shiny new books that would fit.

While I read all kinds of mysteries, a true crime month month sounds particularly appealing.

I liked the way the RandomCat was handled last year.

For GeoCat let's don't go too broad or too narrow. The suggestion of a country (or state for the U.S.) sounds good.

Phew, I just caught up with this discussion! I'm glad we are leaving the drama behind and moving forward with the task at hand. Anyway, here are my thoughts on the CATs:

RandomCAT:
- I'm picking the theme for December 2013, so I think I'll sit back and let others take a turn next year.
- In the 2013 challenge, the original goal was for the monthly themes to be posted 2 weeks before the start of that month. Would that be enough time for the early planners to find an appropriate book? If not, maybe the themes could be posted 1 month early (i.e., April's theme would be posted at the beginning of March).

GeoCAT:
- I'm cool with the shorter name.
- Someone above mentioned picking a different country for each month, but I think that might be too limiting. One person may really want to read a book set in France, but somebody else may be burned out on French literature. Instead, I would suggest picking a different continent or geographical region each month (e.g. Western Europe, Southeast Asia). Or we could pick a group of countries that is united by a common theme, like "countries that became independent in the 20th century" or "countries that have female heads of state." Broader categories like these would hopefully allow more people to participate.
- I think we should be able to use either a book set in the given location or a book whose author is from that location to fulfill this CAT.

MysteryCAT:
- I don't really have opinions on this, so I'm good with whatever the group decides.

1. RandomCAT - I've been one of the advocates for more notice on this CAT. I might be willing to take a month - I'd prefer May, but I'd want to post my thread no later than the first of April. I understand that most people love the spontaneity of this CAT - and the very idea of publishing the themes in advance would spoil that. I agree that probably not everyone will be happy with the set-up of this one, and I am willing to defer to the majority. I certainly did not notice anything lacking in 2013 because I didn't participate in RandomCAT.

2. GeoCAT (I also like the short form) - I went back to see the original description of this, which included 12 suggested locations, but the original poster has just deleted it. Too bad, as I thought it was well-presented. As I recall, it was continental in scope, plus some major population centers. So, North and South America (2), Africa, Europe, Asia, Australia, Antarctica (including N pole?) - that makes 7. Plus, I think she added China, India and another couple of high population countries - maybe one in Europe (Russia?) and one in Africa (Egypt?) or S America (Brazil?). I don't remember exactly.

Since the majority of us are American, I don't think we should focus on specifically American locations, beyond a possible USA/Canada month. Mexico/Central America/Caribbean might work as a month to complete a North American tour. Perhaps we could have a "big blue wet thing" month to encompass locations at sea, including island settings. Also, how about an extra-terrestrial month? YES to fun facts, reading suggestions and links! Include settings in the location, events which occur in the location, authors or characters hailing from the location, the name of the location in the book's title - I don't think we need to be too particular about how someone can identify a book to fit the CAT. For the first year, I'd like to keep the GeoCAT scale large. If we bring it back in the future, it can be refined and focused on smaller areas then. This is the CAT I'm most excited about for 2014! (can you tell?)

3. MysteryCAT - I like any suggestion that will include non-mystery readers as much as possible. Cross-over authors is a good idea. I like Carrie's suggestion of true crime. What about a Mysteries of Nature month - maybe a bad title for a theme that would include any sort of naturally occurring puzzle or strange phenomena - fiction or nonfiction. Examples include werewolves and vampires, aliens from space, nonfiction science, human psychology, lots of stuff. Plus, I hope there will be one month for serial killers!

Lessons Learned: RidgewayGirl takes any criticism of the group personally. RidgewayGirl can be insincere.

RidgewayGirl, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings by telling you how I felt and questioning your judgment. I'm sorry I believed you when you said you were leaving the group and that I should take over. I thought you were serious about leaving, and I didn't want the group to suffer because I had offended you. I realize that you wanted me to just apologize and beg you to stay. I'm sorry, but when I see a perceived injustice, I have to speak up.

You got very upset when you said I was putting words in your mouth, and I changed my post as you asked. Can you honestly say you didn't put words in my mouth? I didn't call you out on it in the group, because no one wanted to hear it. I said I would try to work through our personal differences privately, and I tried, but that obviously didn't work. I let you trash talk me in the group, without retaliating. By refusing to engage in a flame war with you, I let you set me up as the villain and yourself as poor Polly Pureheart. I don't regret that decision because it was the best thing to do for the group.

You've made it crystal clear what you mean by "Take It Or Leave It." I won't offer any more suggestions on how to improve your group.

If you want to talk about this more, my private comment box is open. The group has had enough of this drama.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I want to offer a sincere apology to the group. I knew when I sent my first post that it would set off a heated debate - I just didn't know that our facilitator would quit and make the debate about herself instead of about the issues. When I stepped in as interim facilitator, I thought I was doing the best thing for the group - keeping it going until our facilitator cooled off and came back. Instead, it just enraged her even more. My mistake. I'm sorry.

You've voted and made it clear that you just want this whole mess to go away. I've said my piece and I'm done with the discussions. I hope you won't hold my mistakes against me, as I might like to come back next year and participate in the CATs.

Maybe one of the mystery months could be a book with recipes for our culinary lovers or needlework patterns for our sewing enthusiasts or pet themed for the animal lovers.

I keep coming up with mystery CAT ideas today so I'll throw another one out. Maybe we could have a month for unsolved mysteries - things like Amelia Earhart's disappearance, the fate of the princes in the tower, searches for MIAs, or the walking statues of Easter Island.

The AwardCAT had two choices every month: one genre-based and one general one. I liked this aspect very much. Can we consider applying it to MysteryCAT and GeoCAT?

Each month, MysteryCAT can have one specific mystery sub-genre or writer geared toward die-hard mystery fans, as well as a broader category that would appeal to people who don't normally read mysteries.

For GeoCAT, we can have a larger region or theme as well as a focus on a specific country.

Of course, I don't want to make more work for the organizers, but this is a good way to include both those readers who want a very focused challenge as well as those who want to just dabble in a new category.

In any case, I will be happy with whatever the organizers decide and look forward to participating!

>158 mathgirl40: I love that idea!

Roro8 has a great idea about the RandomCAT -- that of posting a thread early on the preceding month for those who like to plan ahead. I thought it might work if the title of the thread is something utterly ambiguous, but a better functioning idea may to just have a spoiler thread for the RandomCAT. If you need to know before the first of the month, you go to the spoiler thread to find out, with the month's RandomCAT posted at the start of the previous month. Then the individual month's thread as well as the discussion could begin at the start of the appropriate month. Does that sound workable?

RANDOMCAT:

I will gladly sign up for hosting duties for this, but I did host a month last year, so would also be willing to step aside for anyone who hasn’t had a chance to host yet have a turn. As has been mentioned this is fun and pretty simple, think up your theme, start up a thread, and then enjoy the conversations and book bullets.

Timing of this CAT can be tricky as I do like the spontaneity of trying to match one of my TBR books to the theme, but I also know that sometimes we are ordering books from the library and may need extra time for that. I missed participating in one of the AwardCats this year as my library book didn’t arrive in time. So I am willing to give up a little of the spontaneity to give everyone enough lead time. Perhaps we could have the next month’s theme be announced during the first week of the previous month. We could place the announcement in the current month’s thread, and then not start the new thread until a few days before the end of the month.

GEOCAT:

I like the short name. I’m looking forward to this one to help shape my Global Reading Category next year. I’m happy whether we decide on individual countries or areas like Southeast Asia, Western Europe etc. I also love some of the more original ideas like an “extra-terrestrial” month, or Sandy’s “Big Blue Wet Thing”. I also agree that the theme should include a location or an author from that location. Maybe we could alternate the months between actual locations and various themes, for example one month could be read a book set in India (or by an Indian author) and the next month it could something as loose as read a book set on an Island, then people could interpret this in their own way from Zanzibar, Antarctica or Manhattan. Another theme could be to read a book set in a major population centre, giving us the choice of major cities all over the world. Overall I’d like to see the guidelines kept as loose as possible so that lots of people can fit their reading in.

MYSTERYCAT:

Again I think our goal should be to keep this category as open as possible to allow lots of participation. I am a mystery junkie so I am sure that I will be able to find something to read no matter what the monthly theme is. But certainly would like to see some of the various genres explored: historical mystery, noir, cosies, classic, true crime and/or non/fiction that includes murder even if it is on a grand scale such as Hitler or Stalin, police procedurals and of course, serial killers. Again maybe if we go with genres, we could chose two a month is give people even more choice, after all, as hard as it is to comprehend - not everyone wants to read about serial killers! ; ) Concentrating on various authors is another idea I like, including the ones that write different genres. Again I wonder if we do decide to pick an author to explore, if we shouldn’t pick two so people have more choices. Example: Agatha Christie and Jo Nesbo - two very different authors. There are lots of great ideas coming in so I think this is going be a fun and varied CAT.

I posted before I read the RidgewayGirl's post above me, I like this idea of a Spoiler Thread. Of course it will be interesting to see how much willpower I have (not to peek) in my quest for spontaneity!

I love the ideas for MysteryCat and GeoCat outlined above. That should reduce my tbr pile significantly as well as extending my global reading. RandomCat sounds intriguing. Can't wait to get going...

#155 Apology accepted. Will you put the geo-CAT proposal back up?

#158. Great idea - maybe a general theme plus a specific geographic location for each geo-CAT month?

#160. I would be happy with a spoiler thread for RandomCAT and promise not to spoil the surprise for the spontaneous people. If we'd had that this year, Cheli would have had a reminder of her good idea.

#161 Heh, serial killer month might be sparsely populated, but I know at least a couple of people who will be there with me.

#162 all you need to do is red-X the spoiler thread to keep it out of sight

>162 DeltaQueen50: Yes, that occurred to me, too. Of course sjmccreary has the solution for us in 165! If I don't know about it...

Will we want to just go whole hog and post all of the RandomCAT challenges at once, at the beginning of the year, or do just a month's advance warning? Anyone who wants their RandomCAT spontaneous, and who was doing a month, would have to have someone else post their challenge to the spoiler thread. And the person in charge would have to not want to be surprised. Is this getting too labyrinthine, or do you think it's workable? Because I really like the spontaneous element and would like to preserve that if at all possible.

As for the ideas being proposed for the GeoCAT and the MysteryCAT, keep 'em coming. I really like the idea of a broad area and a more focused area coexisting in a month's challenge.

#166 I'd be willing to act as the gatekeeper between the spoiler thread and the monthly organizers who don't want to see anyone else's themes in advance. If that helps. Anyone who wants something to be posted without exposing their self can contact me and I'll post for them - much as we do when we want something posted on the group page.

RandomCAT - I like the idea of this CAT, and would like to keep it for 2014. In fact, I'd be willing to consider hosting a month.

GeoCAT - I like the idea, and would be interested in participating.

MysteryCAT - Not sure.

RandomCAT - I'd be happy to host one of the months - I really enjoyed this challenge in 2013 as it forced me to get creative but yet usually let me clear a book off of my TBR pile.

I hosted one of the RandomCATs this year so I'd like to give others a chance to do it next year. I'll be glad to do it if I'm needed, but I'm happy to see that it looks like there won't be a shortage of volunteers.

164> http://geography.about.com/od/lists/a/officiallist.htm has a list of countries around the world, broken down into 8 world regions.

>171 BookLizard: Thanks. So we'd just have to break up a few of those larger groupings. Something like this?

East Asia (China, Japan, etc.)
South Asia (India etc.)
Middle East and North Africa
Western Europe
Eastern Europe
US
Canada (I feel like Canada always gets subsumed in the US category, but maybe that's just my bias as a Canadian ;))
Central America, Mexico and Caribbean
South America
Sub-Saharan Africa
Australia and Oceania

and then Extraterrestrial, to bring the total to 12?

#171 Thanks for the link!

#172 I like this list. I don't blame you for your US - Canada comment. I wouldn't be opposed to taking the US out of the mix entirely. Probably 80% or more of our reading is US-based, so that is no great challenge. I don't know what we'd replace it with - maybe Antarctica and polar regions?

>172 _Zoe_:. I think the polar regions would be great. Also I agree with your comment about a lot of general reading being set in US or written by US authors so that isn't really very challenging. I know they are not geographically linked or anything but maybe the US and polar regions could be put together in the one month. That way the polar regions are not left out and nor is US.

I like the way the GeoCAT discussion is shaping up. I'm pretty sure I read a book set in the United States every single month--there's no challenge there! But I like the idea of a Canadian month. There's plenty to choose from, but it's not obvious. Replacing the US with Polar regions is a good idea. How does everyone feel about that? A US month could be finessed into a "road trip" theme or something that will require something more difficult than walking to a bookshelf and grabbing a random book.

Would it be interesting to do a broad area partnered with a smaller place within that area? And then get someone familiar (either a resident, someone who's visited or even just has a interest) to open the month with a bit about it? So that Oceania segment could be introduced by our resident Aussie talking about Australia or New Zealand? We have a diverse group here and many of you have been all over the place. And all of you have an interest in somewhere.

Absent a significant change to the vote in post 120, I'll put up the individual threads later today. And so a final, speed vote about the naming of the geography-themed challenge.

GeoCat - Zoe's suggested list (or something akin to it) strikes me as a good way to stretch the reading envelope. If the book can be by an author form or a book set in then that seems to allow plenty of scope for selection. I mean we might need more help with some areas than others, but that's to be expected.

RandomCAT - I'm not a fan of announcing at the beginning of the year all 12 in this - seems to destroy the whole random & spontaneous nature of the thing. I would volunteer, but not if I have to submit an idea in January for reading in October. I'll save the random ideas for the TIOLI in the 75 group in that case and not worry about this one.

MystryCAT - nope, still not sure how this will work. Maybe when the thread takes shape and there are some books suggested as examples I might have a better idea.

I've opened general threads for each CAT. If anyone wants to, they are free to summarize the conversation so far about each CAT, otherwise I'll do so in the morning when I have all of my brain cells. In any case, please continue the planning in the appropriate thread.

The MysteryCAT general thread is here:
http://www.librarything.com/topic/160143#

The RandomCAT general thread is here:
http://www.librarything.com/topic/160141

The GeoCAT general thread is here:
http://www.librarything.com/topic/160142