MysteryCAT -- General Thread

This is the general thread for the MysteryCAT challenge. This thread will first be used to discuss the format of this CAT and later it will be used to announce each month's challenge and to handle any general comments and questions.

For the uninitiated--CAT stands for "categories and themes" and are this group's optional reading challenges. There are three of them this year, the RandomCAT, the GeoCAT and the MysteryCAT. These challenges are open to anyone and are also entirely optional. Participate if you want, but there is no obligation. You can take part in as many or few months as you want. If you manage to find a book that satisfies all three CATs in a given month, then you've achieved a CATtrick; a wondrous and celebrated thing.

And now I open the floor to discussion. We've begun the conversation, but now let's get down to it, get the framework up and get things going. We'll be starting 2014 before long!

*We'll figure out logos later -- I just wanted to decorate a little.

Here are the topics, with the volunteer who will introduce it.

January -- Detective novels
February -- Series -- cyderry
March -- Young Adult and Childrens' mysteries -- VioletBramble
April -- Nordic mysteries -- -Eva-
May -- Classic and Golden Age mysteries -- Mathgirl40
June -- Police Procedurals -- jonesli
July -- Noir and Hard-boiled -- majkia
August - British mysteries -- sjmccreary
September -- Book-themed mysteries -- LittleTaiko
October -- Global mysteries -- mysterymax
November -- Historical mysteries -- christina_reads
December -- Cozy mysteries -- lindapanzo

The wiki is here:

http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/2014_MysteryCAT

I love the Detectivecat!

I'm not crazy about picking authors (even authors who write in multiple genres) for this, because that is pretty limiting.

I'd prefer months for things like

Historical mysteries - pretty self explanatory I'd think.
Bibliomysteries - like Possession or something that has a library or book store as a centerpiece to a puzzle
Art Mysteries (Forgers, lost, stolen, trying to figure out who did the piece)
Noir
Supernatural mysteries (bigfoot even)
Scientific - discovery stories, puzzling out DNA, forensics, etc
Holiday puzzles and mysteries

And I'm sure we can come up with lots more.

There are more pictures and drawings of cats on the internet than there are bacteria in the entire universe.

I'm new here, so I'm not sure how things actually work, but . . . would it be possible to have a "New Authors" topic - for authors whose first published work occurred during 2013. I've found some exciting new authors this year.

That's a great idea! Love finding new authors - I used to try to read all the new author nominees for the Anthony Awards.

I'm really looking forward to this one.
I'd like to see one for culinary cozies with recipes!

I like the idea of new authors (or even new-to-the-reader authors) this would be less limiting than picking just one or two authors for the month.

I would also like to see police procedurals added to the list.

We could also have a month for Series and everyone could use that to catch up on whatever type of mystery they prefer - historical mysteries, cozies, classics etc.

I'm looking forward to this CAT as I'm new to the genre. I used to avoid mysteries and recently I have got right into them and would like to discover new authors/mystery sub-genres and carry on with the series I have started. (Boy does this genre seem to generate endless series)

Some themes:
Classic - Sherlock Holmes, Agatha Christie, Dorothy Sayers and the like
Childrens & Young Adult - this could include those that were written for the young such as Enid Blyton's Famous Five etc and those who have a young protagonist like the Flavia de Luce series

I like the idea of new authors (or even new-to-the-reader authors) this would be less limiting than picking just one or two authors for the month.

I second that idea!

I like the idea of children/young adult...not only would it include the lady that started in all for many of us (Nancy Drew) but there are some great mysteries out now with young people as the protagonish.... even young Sherlock Holmes and James Bond...

I would use a children's/YA month as an excuse to binge on Hardy Boys :D

I'm thinking we're all gonna get hit with tons of BBs here so there will be plenty of new-to-me authors to read! And no, I'm not complaining.... much....

I wasn't planning on being too involved in this CAT but everybody sounds so excited and I'm liking the sound of the different types of mysteries rather than author focused so I may be in after all.

And serial killers - don't forget the serial killers! ;-)

Another vote for serial killers! :)

Some other themes I'd like: noir, Scandinavian mysteries, golden-age or classic. Maybe graphic novel mysteries?

Ok, so we have three possibilities for our MysteryCAT:

Subgenres - for example, classic and golden age, culinary crimes, serial killers, etc...

Authors -- Agatha Christie, Jo Nesbo, etc... note that one suggestion is to feature two authors a month and to choose two who write very different kinds of mysteries.

A combination of the two. Alternating authors and subgenres.

So let's discuss and vote tomorrow. What would you prefer? Why?

I prefer the genres. Authors are too restrictive. Maybe each genre could have a feature author?

Sorry, I know I said I wasn't going to weigh in too much with this cat but all the genre talk sounded really good. The author talk didn't grab me at all.

Roro8, CATs are optional. You can weigh in on one you end up never participating in. That's just how we roll. (also, if you end up kinda liking it, well, we're always happy to see you.)

I prefer the genres too. I like the idea that when the genre is introduced there would be some authors mentioned for example Stout and Christie for classic mysteries, Nesbo and Adler-Olsen for Scandinavian mysteries etc.

#19. Thanks. It just seemed like a logical step to keep the author people happy and the genre people happy. If you do Agatha Christie one month it seems unlikely that you would follow up with classic mysteries another month. A genre with a feature author seemed to blend both. I'm repeating myself. Oops.
Either way, I'll participate sometimes. Especially if there ends up being a mystery series month as I have a couple of those on the go.

I doubt I'll participate in the CAT but I do have a mystery category in my challenge so I've given some thought to how attack the detectives this year. :)

Some suggestions for themes:

Mysteries that aren't British, American, or Nordic (setting and/or author), like: Anne Zouroudi (Greece), Donna Leon (Italy), Eliot Pattison (China), etc.

Mysteries that are also fantasy/sci-fi, like: Jim Butcher (The Dresden Files), Glen Cook (Garrett Files), Richard K. Morgan (Takeshi Kovacs), Jasper Fforde (Thursday Next), etc.

Some suggestions from the main thread:
If we do author months, choose a few mystery authors who also wrote in other genres so the non-mystery readers could participate (Georgette Heyer, Isaac Asimov, Ellis Peters)

Include a true crime month

Have an unsolved mystery month (Amelia Earhart's disappearance, the princes in the tower, the walking statues of Easter Island, the fate of the Roanoke colonists)

I think someone else suggested mysteries of nature as a possible theme.

There was also a suggestion for two challenges per month like we had this year with the awards CAT and alpha CAT. One could be subgenre or author based and the other could be theme based with potential appeal for those who aren't diehard mystery fans. I think I'd be more likely to participate every month if we did that. Even though mystery is my favorite genre, there are some subgenres and authors that I know I don't like and won't read, having already tried them.

I have books on my shelf that will fit no matter how this CAT gets organized, so I am just watching the discussion... but one theme which I think would be good for the people who ARE mystery fans would be 'authors you have never read before'. Everytime I shelf read at the library I am amazed at how many authors I haven't read yet.

I like going with subgenres and having a feature author or two.

I'm not sure we need to worry too much about making subgenres broad enough to encourage non-mystery fans to participate. After all, this is a MysteryCAT and it's supposed to offer a challenge. I don't want us to convey the message, "Look, you can participate by reading a book that you'd normally read even if it's barely a mystery." I'd rather send the message, "Here are some really good mysteries that people who aren't normally mystery fans would still like." Maybe it's us, the true mystery fans, who should highlight the best and most accessible of each subgenre at the beginning of each month so that non-fans can get good recommendations.

Of course, this all depends on what one's goals are with the CATs. For me, there are two goals: to fit in books I already want to read and to challenge myself. So I'd enjoy a feature author like Agatha Christie because I love her books and want to reread a number of them. However, I'd also enjoy a historical mystery month because I don't read many in that category and would like to see what others recommend.

I've only been dipping my toes into the Mystery waters, so I would need some guidance on what fits for different themes - like having representative authors for that genre featured or the favorite books highlighted by the true mystery fans, as mathgirl suggested.

And many of the themes that have been thrown around are intriguing! Good thing I'm planning on a mystery category for 2014.

Here's my opinion for whatever it's worth...

1. Since this is supposed a MYSTERY CAT I think that books that aren't mysteries shouldn't count no matter if the author does write mysteries.
2. Since we have people who want authors and people who want subgenres why not do both - each month have a subgenre and an author or 2 in that subgenre. That way if readers don't particularly care for the author they can still participate by reading any other author.

I personally love just about any type of mystery but some authors turn me off.

Have we made a list of the subgenres or are there so many that we have to vote. I would suggest that if we have to vote, that we use the votes like this

YES - my top 6
No - I'm definitely not interested in this one
Undecided - I like this one but not my top 6

Each person gets 6 YES votes, 6 UNDECIDED votes and the rest are NOs

Then the votes are tallied with the Undecideds breaking any ties.

ETA:
Here are my suggestions for CATEGORIES to be included:

Cozy mysteries
Professional Sleuth
Police Procedural
Legal/Medical
Suspense/Thriller
Historical
Classic or oldtime
Mystery Books made into movies
Mysteries set outside of the US
Bibliomysteries
Culinary mysteries
Supernatural/special powers mysteries

There are some great themes being proposed. While i like the idea of featuring an author or two in with each sub genre, I'd like to know if there are any arguments in favor of having an author or two as at least some of the months.

cyderry, I like that set up for the voting. Anyone else have anything to say about voting format when we get to that?

Also, start thinking about whether you'd like to host a month - if there's a sub genre or an author you are especially fanatical about and would be willing to put together an introduction. Don't say anything yet, but think about it, so that when we reach that point, you're ready.

Cheli, could you explain a little more about your voting proposal? I don't understand why a person would only get 6 yes votes when there are 12 months to fill.

There seems to be a lot of support for subgenre organization. Is there a way to please that group and still include those of us (possibly the minority) that love mysteries in general but have a strong aversion to some of the subgenres?

I don't find organization around subgenres appealing as a challenge. I already know which ones I like and which ones I don't like, and there's no challenge there for me. I would probably "leave" more months than I "take" if that's what MysteryCAT ends up being, or just focus on GeoCAT and RandomCAT.

I would suggest that if we have to vote, that we use the votes like this

YES - my top 6
No - I'm definitely not interested in this one
Undecided - I like this one but not my top 6

Each person gets 6 YES votes, 6 UNDECIDED votes and the rest are NOs

The 6 YES votes are your absolute favorites
The 6 UNDECIDED votes are the next 6 favorites

By doing it this way, the votes are weighed - the ones you really, really like are higher than the ones that are just okay but everyone does get 12 votes.

I'd like to add a few more suggestiions to Cheli's list for voting on:

- YA Point of View Mysteries
- New-to-Me Authors
- Serial Killer Month
- Following a Series Month

and I'd like to break the Mysteries set outside the US into

- Scandicrime
- Global Mysteries

I would be interested in having a few months where we explore invidivual authors, choosing two or three very different ones for a wider choice. For example I don't usually read cozies but if a popular cozy author was put forward I would certainly give it a try, as I do like the idea of stretching myself.

Perhaps since this is such a wide theme, maybe we should choose two themes to explore each month, as we did with the AwardCats last year.

Don't forget noir/hard-boiled!

Oh yeah, definitely a noir/hard-boiled month! :)

can we keep any authors chosen for a month ones that will fit into a sub-genre we're choosing?

My preference is for sub-genre rather than authors because there will always be the chance that there will be people who don't like the author chosen or has read all they ever want to read of said author. However it would be lovely if the more well-read mystery experts could chime in at the beginning of each month and recommend their favourite authors, or the best authors that represent the sub-genre.

I like the subgenre's listed by Judy and Cheli are there more that haven't been listed?

#35 by @kiwiflowa>


art
scientific

ETA: removed subgenres as it was listed above

Let's continue to discuss, but also start voting on the general format of this CAT. Keep talking about it, but I'm hoping with the choices listed, it will help us all decide what we'd like. Votes can be changed. Shall we take the weekend to discuss and vote?

The number of authors featured each month is not yet determined. It could be one, or two authors writing very different kinds of mysteries. Or some other number.

Which subgenres is still up for discussion. We are only voting on format.

There could also be two or even three featured authors if we choose.

What about voting for number 40 plus an author writing in another sub genre with the sub genre designated for those of us not that familiar with sub genres of mysteries?

I think I am asking the same thing as Sallylou above.

Should we plan on featuring at least one author that doesn't write the sub-genre that we are featuring every month. For example: if police procedurals is the featured theme, then one of the featured authors could be an an author who writes cozies so that those who don't read procedurals have a wider choice?

#42 by @DeltaQueen50> but who and how would that author be chosen?

I think if the focus is on a sub-genre then the author(s) chosen should reflect that genre.

For example, there are many police procedurals that are almost cozies. Perhaps the person posting the authors could give 2 or 3 authors with a short description of how they are different from each other, making it easier for a person to choose. I though the idea was to challenge us to go beyond what me might read normally, not to find one of our 'normal' reading types to fit. (Although we could do that once in a while, too).

I agree with mysterymax. If every month accommodates everyone's tastes, where's the challenge? The idea of finding authors with different takes on a sub genre is a good one and the introduction might point us in the direction of an author to try even if serial killers or cozies aren't our thing.

I agree with mysterymax, too. To me, the whole point of book clubs (and discussions) is to get me to read outside of my comfort zone. I hate to tell you how many times I re-read my Agatha Christie, Dorothy Sayers, and Rex Stout books!

I agree also. The idea of a Mystery "Challenge" is just that - reading a Mystery that is a Challenge - different than what we would normally pull off the shelf and read. I don't have a problem with an author being identified in a subgenre but the book should be a mystery in that subgenre.

Hmmm. Maybe I need to just forget about all of these. I want a way to select books off my TBR not go out to get more books.

For me the "challenge" to all the CATs is finding a book on my TBR mountain that fits. My goal with any challenge is to move books off my shelves.

Many of the subgenres are pretty broad and I don't think it would be hard for people to find books to fit into them from their TBR piles. A few of them are more narrow and maybe not to everyone's tastes, but I think that's OK. I don't think we need to accommodate everybody every month.

This year, the AwardsCAT, RandomCAT and AlphaCAT all had some months that were easy to fill and some that weren't. Since this was an optional challenge, I participated some of the time and not others, but even those months I didn't participate directly, I enjoyed reading the posts and added a few items to my wishlist as a result.

Having said that, I do think a couple of the suggested genres are perhaps too narrow. For example, maybe "culinary mysteries" could be part of "craft/hobby mysteries" and include knitting/sewing mysteries? Perhaps allow any mystery that has a food/craft theme (e.g. set in a restaurant, murder victim is a chef, weapon is a knitting needle)?

Do you need to be able to find a suitable book (whether that means off of your shelf or something that you are used to reading) every month? Or do you want something that is comfortable some months, challenging sometimes and sometimes isn't something you want to do? Do we need to try to be all things to all people?

Think about what your favorite subgenre is, so that you can keep that in mind as we choose topics. There's no point picking topics that no one's excited about, because we'll need 12 volunteers to write the intros. And maybe that intro will cause you to take another look at a sub genre you'd thought wasn't for you?

As someone who really doesn't think in genres, having 2/3 authors who write in that genre would really help with knowing who to try. So if you pick cosies (and I have no idea what that might be!) a couple of authors who write cosies so at least I can browse the library catalogue for a name would help enormously. Otherwise where do you start? Seems to me that you have to have read the book to know what slot it will fit into - and that seems to defeat the object.

Personally I want to not read stuff that's already on my shelves - I want to be stretched outside what I already know, not re-reading things I know I love. I tend to retreat into my comfort zone and need pulling out of it.

And what could be better than having someone who really enjoys that sub genre to tell you about it? What it is, what makes a good one and then present a few authors--maybe one that defines the genre or who is held in great respect, then an author the volunteer especially enjoys and then maybe one author who pushes the boundaries, so a cozy writer with a bit of a hard edge, a noir author who lets cheerfulness slip in, that kind of thing. Even if I end up never reading a book in that sub genre, at least I'll have a better understanding of it, and maybe you'll tempt me to give it a try. If you give me the option of a kind of book I don't like or know much about and an author I do like, well, I know which I'd pick. Don't give me that choice.

It looks as though sub genres may be the format of this CAT, although that could change. Here are the topics suggested up until now. Have I forgotten any? Are there one or two you'd like to add?

Art-themed mysteries (could include music and dance)
Book-themed mysteries
British mysteries
Classic and Golden Age mysteries
Cozies (specifically cooking cozies)
Debut authors (authors who have released their first book in the past year)
Detective novels (professional or amateur sleuth)
Global mysteries (mysteries set outside of N.America, Britain and Scandinavia)
Graphic novels
Historical mysteries
Holiday-themed mysteries
Legal/Medical mysteries
Locked-room mysteries
Mystery novels that have been made into movies
Nature-themed mysteries
New-to-me authors and or series
Noir/Hard-boiled
Non-fiction and unsolved mysteries
Nordic mysteries
Police procedurals
Science-themed mysteries
Serial Killers
Series
Supernatural (would SF and fantasy fit here?)
YA and children's mysteries

That gives us 24 topics to add to and then whittle down into 12. Which would you like to volunteer to lead? Which sound the most interesting to you? And the least interesting?

For folks who want help with understand the subgenres and lists, you might check out this site, which has tons of authors and books listed:

http://www.sldirectory.com/libsf/booksf/mystery/topic.html

There are five topics any ONE of which I would be willing to lead: global, police, classic, movies, children/ya. If any of those wind up being on our to-do list and one of them doesn't have a leader, I will do it.

I'd like to chime in here to say that having an author or two in the same genre in the same month would help me figure out in a few cases whether or not a book I had might fit. or give me a direction to go - I think that's a good idea. I could look at book descriptions of those authors to get an idea of how I might fit a book in my TBR pile into the month or give me an author to check out.

I was surprised this year at how often I had a book in the TBR for the Random or Award that I wasn't aware would fit the challenge and I'm hoping that happens again.

ETA: I must have been posting at the same time as majkia - thanks for the link

Majkia, that site is amazing and I'll have to go back and spend time with it. I would like to note that we are not using it as our master list to choose from. With categories as specific and diverse as Cinco de Mayo mysteries and mysteries featuring full figured detectives, we would be voting for some time to come.

Majkia - Thanks for the link! being new here, I wasn't too clear about the categories and actually wondered how I was going to find the books to fit the topics. That link will help a lot.

I am willing to volunteer for one of the months, but though I love mysteries, I'm not an expert in any particular sub-genre. If someone else more knowledgeable would like to lead, I'd prefer that, but otherwise, I'm willing to do some research. :)

The ones that I could do are: British, classic, global, graphic novels, noir/hardboiled, supernatural. YA/children's.

I was the one who had originally suggested graphic novels, and now, upon thinking about it, I think it would be too narrow a category. However, could it fit into a "non-novel format" category? This would include graphic novels, comics and other serialized formats, novellas, plays, short-story collections, etc. If there is not enough interest to make non-fiction a standalone category, it could fit in here as well.

One sub-genre that I quite enjoy is : mysteries with real people as the sleuths... some I have read included Houdini, Oscar Wilde, Dorothy Parker...great fun. I would be willing to lead that one as well if it makes it to our list.

I will volunteer to do Debut Novels, if that is chosen, and if I could do it later in the year. I've never participated in these challenges, so I'd like some time to get a feel for what the leader has to do.

I'd be willing to lead the art cat if it made it to the list. I've got a fondness for forgers and heists ;)

Ha! For a second there, Majkia, I thought you were suggesting art-themed mysteries with cat sleuths! (Not that that category doesn't already exist.)

Any new themes to be added to the list?

Most interesting: Book-themed, British, Classic & Golden Age, Cozies, Historical, Holiday-themed, Locked room
Least interesting: Supernatural, Science-themed, Noir/hard-boiled, serial killers, graphic novels
Willing to lead: Book-themed, Historical, Cozies, Holiday-themed

Before we get distracted, let's start figuring out what monthly themes we like. Since there are 24 possibilities, why don't we say that each person gets eight "yes" votes -- for your favorite ideas, eight "undecided" votes -- for those ideas you can live with, and eight "no" votes, for the ideas you're unlikely to participate in. Since it's strictly the honor system here, I'd like to suggest that if you can't decide, you can adjust those proportions a few votes in any direction. And you'll have to, if there are a few more ideas added to the list.

Please, if you have an idea for a good theme, then still go ahead and suggest it. Go ahead and set up a vote for it and if you don't know how, then the next person who comes along will set that up. Personally, I'm excited about the introductions -- especially for those sub genres I don't read.

edited to add that there are a few later additions to the voting. Please continue to scroll down as the last vote is one post 95.

Oops! Here it is!

Can we include actual Sherlock Holmes novels in that designation?

Well by definition - if its a real Doyle/Holmes it's not a pastiche, but if the group wanted to make it both, why not?

FYI I count 25 polls so I did 9 NOs.

Yes, thank you. As topics are added, you will all have to adjust in a hopefully proportional manner.

To move the voting bar on the last two up near the others so they don't get missed I am going to delete my suggestions of them.

Wow, that was a tough set of votes! I wish we had 18 months in the year instead of only 12!

All this voting is starting to make my brain hurt! :)

The MysteryCAT topics are as follows:

Book-themed mysteries
British mysteries
Classic and Golden Age mysteries
Cozy mysteries
Detective novels
Global mysteries
Historical mysteries
Noir and Hardboiled
Nordic mysteries
Police Procedurals
Series
Young Adult and Childrens' mysteries

Looks good, doesn't it? So now to figure out who wants to introduce which topics. I'll post this list, randomly mixed, up on the first post. Please pick a topic and if you'd like it moved to a different month, as long as no one's spoken for that month, I'll switch it round. First come, first served, so go ahead and speak up!

I'll do global in October if you would like. - or if someone really wants that one I could do the Children/YA one.

I'd like to volunteer for the September book themed topic.

I can do classic/golden-age in May.

I can do Young Adult and Children's mysteries in March

I can do Nordic mysteries in April since I am, well, Nordic. :) I will have to place myself in a huge shame-bucket, though, since many of you have read more Scandicrime than I have...

I can do series in February. I have so many series!

I've got you all added to the list.

I'll step up for Noir and Hardboiled if no one else wants it. (I'm already doing a Random so it isn't like I haven't got a chance already).

Good. That's my favorite, so I'm really looking forward to it and to maybe even finding some new authors.

Good Morning Everyone:

Looks sheepishly around...

So I kind of said I wasn't going to participate in the CATs while all the fighting was going on, but I see everything is calm now and I don't think I will be able to stay away from the CATs, especially from a MysteryCAT.

If there are no objections, I'd like to volunteer to do the Police Procedurals in June.

I'm so glad you came back. I've got you down for police procedurals in June.

I would really love to do historical mysteries, if no one else wants it! But I'm happy to give someone else a turn, since I am also hosting a GeoCAT next year.

I'll put you down, Christina. : )

I was just looking at my assignment - series in February - and not sure how I can proceed since there are series related to all the other types of mysteries we've identified for the other months. Should I be looking for series that fall into other categories or just encompass all series and identifies some authors in each one. I'm a bit confused about what I should be working on. Or are the other months for stand alone mysteries not in a series?

What does everyone think? I mean, we may well be reading books that are parts of series in other months. What makes this month different? Maybe what characteristics make for a successful series? Why are Agatha Christie's mysteries featuring Hercule Poirot or Ms. Marple more popular than her stand-alones?

There'll be cross-overs every month (ok, maybe no noir cozies).

What does everyone think?

the vast majority of mysteries I read are a part of a series. I think the idea of mentioning some more popular series is a good one - and what you think makes them more popular. There's going to be tons of overlap one each of these categories anyway.

I could be wrong, but I think I remember someone mentioning a "catch up" month. As the mystery genre seems to produce a lot of series, some of them very long series (20+ books even) it could be a chance for us to try and make some headway in series we have already started?

I also like the idea of using this month as a "catch up" month for various series we're reading. Maybe we can focus on the "serial" or "sequential" aspect of a series: read the next book of a series we're reading in order or start a new series from the first book, rather than just reading a random book in a series.

Perhaps we can discuss popular series that feature continuing story lines or character development throughout the books. (Louise Penny's Inspector Gamache series is a good example.) In contrast, some series like Poirot are simply a collection of books with a common character and can be read mostly out of order.

I'd be tremendously happy to use my "series" month for catchup - maybe what we can do to keep track of our series, what makes us give up on a series, why we keep reading series, and such. What do you think? In that I can be an expert considering I currently have 148 series going!

Blimey! And I thought I was bad!

I've got 193 series listed on FictFact. Sigh.

FictFact has 610 series listed for me. (I think that at least 300 of them I haven't started yet) It will be pretty much impossible for me not to read some series for the other themes, but I can always use a Catch-up Month. I suspect there is going to be a good deal of overlap between the various months - British, Police Procedural, Series etc. but I'm fine with that.

Series as a 'catch up' month is perfect for me!

I think I'll combine series month with the GeoCAT for the Middle East and North Africa and start a couple of series I've been meaning to read - Daniel Silva's Gabriel Allon series and the Katya Hijazi series by Zoe Ferraris set in Saudi Arabia. It would also be a good excuse to continue with the Amelia Peabody series.

I'd be willing to host British Mysteries in August, if it is still not spoken for.

No one has spoken up for cozies in December?

If not, I'd be glad to lead it. I'm not sure what that involves but, no doubt, I can figure it out by December, 2014.

I love cozies!!

Linda, we saved cozies for you. :)

Fantastic. I don't read cozies, so I'm looking forward to learning about them and trying one or two.

Detective novels are all that's left!

Can we have the choice of some cozies without the recipes or knitting patterns??????

By detective novels do we mean private eyes, the guys with the license that the cops always want to revoke????

#132 Well, it IS in December...my favorite kind of cozies.

I like culinary mysteries but not ones with knitting patterns myself. There are plenty of other cozy topics though.

I consider Agatha Christie novels to be cozy... then again Miss Marple does knit...

If it helps, II did once do a bit about mystery genres on my blog. As well there are several articles about specific types of mysteries, but the genre article is at

http://booksmoviesandgames.wordpress.com/category/the-mystery-corner/page/8/

I would consider Maisie Dobbs novels by Jacqueline Winspear and the Sam Blackman novels by Mark De Castrique as detective novels for someone asking. Both of them have detective agencies. I guess Agatha Raisin would fall in that category too as well as the #1 Ladies Detective Agency novels.

That makes sense, Lori. If there's a detective of a professional sort, even if not connected with the police, I think of it as a detective story.

otoh, I think of a cozy as featuring an amateur sleuth.

#135, I will check it out. Thanks!!

I always thought a cozy required an amateur sleuth. Any kind of professional - police or PI - is something else.

This may be a dumb question, but what are Golden Age mysteries?

That refers to the height of the popularity of mystery novels, primarily by British authors, in the 1920s and 1930s. Authors like Margery Allingham, Ellery Queen and Agatha Christie form the backbone.

Interestingly, the tendency in the US was toward the hard-boiled, which we'll also encounter.

@ 139 -- The blog My Reader's Block tends to focus on classic/Golden Age mysteries, and it has a ton of suggestions and reviews!

Are we supposed to have our intro to our month's done soonish?

No, those can be put up when each month's thread is opened. When do we want to open each month's thread?

30 days in advance? :-)

What if we do the wiki page and let folks add their month's info there. Then at the start of the thread they can repeat what is there or add more. I'm good with threads beginning 30 days before.

30 days sounds reasonable to me. Seems like each thread should have a brief description of the subgenre, plus some recommendations of books or authors that fit within it.

#139 Hi, I don't think I've talked to you before but I'm Chicago Linda, the mystery buff.

Critic HRF Keating compiled a list quite some time ago of the 100 greatest mysteries ever. Certainly not all are golden age mysteries but most are. You can see the whole list at:

http://www.librarything.com/bookaward/H.R.F.+Keating's+100+Best+Crime+%2526+Myst...

Also, there's a bookseller/publisher that specializes in "golden age mysteries" which it defines as 1920-1940. They've got a great website that alerts me to plenty of obscure books from that era. It's at:

http://www.ruemorguepress.com/

I love the Rue Morgue Press! They have a good collection of humorous mysteries as well...

Just a warning, since I have February, I may not have my thread up the first few days of January since I may be out of town, but I will get it up as soon as I can.

If the information is put into the wiki whenever the person hosting the topic gets it up, would we need to open the thread before the intended month. We can pick our books as early as we want, but do we want to open discussion threads before the month in question?

@140 and 141

Thanks so much. I'll take a look at that site. I enjoy mysteries but have never really thought about them in terms of distinctive sub genres. I think from looking at the list I tend to read mostly police procedurals, detective stories, and sometimes cozies. I'm looking forward to trying out the other sorts.

@147 thank you so much, Linda. That sounds like a great resource! I can't wait for next year to start. You guys all seem like such a great group. :)

151 - I agree! I'm anxious for next year to start.

#150 Are you thinking that the wiki post will contain the full description of the subgenre together with suggested titles and authors? I like that idea.

Yes, there's no need to hide anything is there? We won't discuss anything until the right month, but it might help people new to a sub-genre to have time to look at the suggested titles and authors as well as find out about the subgenre.

Is someone willing to set up the wiki? Hosts can add their stuff whenever they want, but at least a month early and ideally soon. How does that sound to everyone?

Oh my, I was hoping I had until October to figure all this out.

If yours isn't up until October, you can take your time, months if you want.

I've been thinking about the first MysteryCAT, so if no one else wants detective fiction, I'll put something together this week, as long as the apartment we've rented has wifi, which it should. It's fall break over here, so I'm gone next week. I'll be trying to stuff culture into the offspring. Wish me luck!

I'll set up a wiki and post the addy here.

http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/2014_MysteryCAT

If anyone needs help adding to the wiki, let me know and I'll help. Or you can send me the info and I'll put it on the wiki for you.

do we want to add usernames to the wiki so if anyone has a question about a month they can contact the person who is coordinating it?

>159 majkia:: That sounds fine to me. Thanks for setting things up!

Can we add the wiki link to post #1 so that it will be easy to find later?

You are wonderful, majkia! I've also asked -Eva- to post a link to it at the top of the 2014 Challenge page.

They've been linked on the Challenge page. Thanks, @majkia, they look great!! I love the "Tour Guide" for Geo - should we be Chief Detectives or Chief Investigators for Mystery? :)

#163 by @-Eva-> yeah, I've been trying to find something equally cool for MysteryCAT and RandomCAT...

Today I tentatively picked out the books I plan to read for each category. Not too surprisingly I had one from almost all the genres except the YA category. Might be time to reread a Nancy Drew or Trixie Belden. I'm not looking forward to this challenge at all am I? :)

>165 LittleTaiko:
Try the Young Sherlock Holmes series by Andrew Lane!

@165 and 166
The Enola Holmes books are a pretty good YA choice, too.

I'd second that

>166 mysterymax:, 167: I'll have to try these series! I love the Boy Sherlock Holmes series by Shane Peacock myself.

Can the hosts or someone please define the genres? Providing example autors or detectives would be especially helpful. Especially those that are less than obvious.

I added a link to my favorite Cozy mystery website. It's the place I find out about new releases, as well.

http://www.cozy-mystery.com/

I was filling in the usernames on the wiki but don't know who is doing January???

Don't quote me on this, but I think it's RidgewayGirl for January.

Yes, I agree with Miela, RidgewayGirl said she would take January and if anyone came along who wanted to host a month she would step aside.

Perhaps January needs a bit more clarification - is it for all licensed private eyes except for hard-boiled ones? - which has its own month?

I'd say don't worry so much about overlap. It's going to happen...

I love the Detective Cat logo you have temporarily chosen. I vote to keep it!

@ 175 -- I was imagining "detective novels" as books where the main character is a (non-police) detective for a living, like Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot. But ias majkia said, there are definitely going to be a ton of overlaps with this CAT.

I agree about the logo. I can't imagine improving on it!

I also agree about the detective category - non-police. I'd add the Nero Wolfe series and the more-modern Spenser series as possibilities.

Couldn't we have a logo with a little more color?


or

Cheli, thanks for including that "Stop You're Killing Me" website. I'd never heard of it before.

In fact, when I looked, I discovered that an author I like, the prolific Tim Myers, has published two novellas that seem to end his Carolina lighthouse series.

>180 cyderry: Oh, those are both so cute!

Aaaaaa I love the second picture in post 180!

ok, I really liked the original one but, I have to say I do love 180 part 2! Made me laugh right out loud!

I thought it looked more like a mouse! But it is cute.

I can live with either the original one or the second one in #180. The first one in #180 makes it look more like the girl is the detective with a sidekick cat.

I love the second one in #180

This is slightly off topic of the challenge, but I thought y'all might be able to help. Do any of you know of any good steampunk mysteries? I tried googling, but it's hard to know what's actually worth reading. Thanks.

ok - what is a steampunk mystery?

from urban dictionary:

Steampunk is a subgenre of speculative fiction, usually set in an anachronistic Victorian or quasi-Victorian alternate history setting. It could be described by the slogan "What the past would look like if the future had happened sooner." It includes fiction with science fiction, fantasy or horror themes.

thanks!

> 188 - If you are looking for mystery genre with steampunk elements, I can suggest The Affinity Bridge by George Mann. It's pretty much a Victorian mystery with a male/female investigative team and lots of steampunk elements. It is also first book in Mann's Newbury & Hobbes Investigations series.

Here's a tagmash of steampunk and mystery.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/mystery,+steampunk

And I've got Steampunk Holmes in my TBR list. No idea if it is any good though.

Thanks for posting the tagmash, Jean! I couldn't find that feature when I wanted it a couple of weeks ago. I was a little surprised to see The Glass of Time by Michael Cox show up in the tagmash. It is a wonderful Gothic mystery, but it has no steampunk elements.

.... and I am now reminded that I really need to get around to reading my copy of The Manual of Detection. ;-)

> 188 - I can also recommend New Amsterdam from the tagmash list as a really good steampunk mystery short story collection, if you are okay with vampires, werewolves and the like.

Not steampunk, but an alternative universe and quite fun one is Staling the Unicorn by Mike Resnick. It is the first in a trilogy. John Justin Mallory is a hard-boiled detective in Manhattan. A very short person comes into his office and wants to hire Mallory to find a missing object - a unicorn. Mallory of course, tries to throw him out, but the 'short person' takes Mallory down the elevator... into an alternative Manhattan.

Thanks for the suggestions! I knew you guys wouldn't disappoint. These look great. Heading to the library with a list right now. :)

And thanks also for the tagmash, majkia. I didn't know how to do that.

What will the "book-themed mysteries" in August cover? I can make a guess at the others, but that one has me stumped.

Nevermind - I found the answer and it is so obvious! The key was looking back through these posts and finding the term "bibliomysteries". Google is wonderful when you put in the right words!

As lead detective for the book-themed mysteries in September, I would like to recommend the series by Lorna Barrett. She has a series set in a lovely town where the main character own a mystery bookstore. Lots of other options too - essentially any book where the main character works in or owns a bookstore or works in a book related field. Library settings too!

I love the Lorna Barrett Booktown books.

Jenn MacKinlay has a Library Lovers series.

There was that Miss Zukas series of cozies set in a library (author was Jo Dereske).

Carolyn Hart's Annie Laurance Darling series is a long-running series (25 to 30 books, I'd say) set in a mystery bookstore.

And John Dunning's series... I think the first one is Booked to Die

Julie Kaewert's series about a book publisher with a penchant for rare books and solving mysteries

I was thinking of Julie Kaewert as well! That might end up being my choice for the book mystery month, as I have all but the first book in the series and am planning to reread them.

Thanks for the Booked-themed suggestions. I think I will select Murder is Binding, as I am a New England native and I need New Hampshire for my 50 States challenge.

I had a book all picked out for the book-themed month...but the author is coming to our library this Sunday and I am introducing her so I figured I had better read the book first. It's The Red Queen Dies by Frankie Y. Bailey. It's a police procedural but it involves Alice in Wonderland. Quite fun.

>204 mysterymax: Oooh, that looks good. Dangit, this group is gonna be bad for my book-buying budget...

Oh just thought of a good theme, would have been good for January too. I might make it a January TIOLI challenge in the 75 group: "Read the first book in a Mystery Series". Think of the chaos, all those series started in one go...

I can recommend the Joh Dunning series - I wish he'd written more of them.

kiwi>> I'll be set for that Challenge - I have a Category setup for first in a series and own 20 firsts ready to go! Now I'll just have to figure out which are Detective novels.

Twenty first in a series books. Please share the list!

There are 10 books in Lawrence Block's Bernie Rhodenbarr series. Bernie owns a second hand bookstore, is a thief / burglar and in the course of his robberies usually winds up stumbling across a dead body and winds up solving the mystery. These are quick reads and lots of fun!

I think I'll plan n Nero Wolfe in January.

Oh thanks for mentioning that. I have the first of that series and will pencil it in for that month

Hmm, I have Fer-de-Lance on my TBR shelves too...maybe I'll join y'all in January!

I may have to change my plans and join you for a Nero Wolfe re-read.

Miscounted - should be 22 and I can join in the Nero Wolfe too!

A Deadly Grind
A Murderous Glaze
Deadly Blessings
Deadly Endplay
A Wicked Slice
Alexander Cipher
Beauty to Die for
Dolled Up for Murder
Fer-de-Lance
Jane and the Unpleasantness at Scargrave Manor
Larceny and Old Lace
Mind over Murder
Murder Passes the Buck
Murphy's Law
Sweet Revenge
Cloche and Dagger
The Christie Curse
A Taste for Murder
The Ninth Daughter
A Beautiful Blue Death
Them Bones
Grace under Pressure

Wolfe and Archie in January! What a great way to start the year. I'll come to the party.

Oh dear, now I am torn. I was planning on Kate Atkinson's Jackson Brodie or Ken Bruen's Jack Taylor in January, but now I am thinking Nero Wolf.

I was thinking Spencer. Now probably Spencer and Wolf.

why not both?

No doubt there's a Nero Wolfe or two that I've missed along the way.

In the Sue Grafton series, I've read only A so I may include at least B in January.

I also plan to rummage through my Rue Morgue mysteries and see what would fit from those.

>218 majkia: Spenser was my first choice - til I jumped on the Nero Wolfe bandwagon!

I've got questions..

where do legal mysteries fall? i.e. Alexandra Cooper, Perry Mason, Barbara Holloway
The police are involved to a certain extent, would they go in Police procedurals or detective?

Do government agents fall into Police Prodecurals?

>222 cyderry: Legal mysteries didn't make the cut in the voting. However, you could fit them into the series month along with any other type of mystery you want to read that did't make the top 12.

So is Nordic just Norway, Sweden, Finland or do Denmark and Iceland qualify too?

->224 cyderry:
The Nordic countries include all five of those as well as their associated regions: Faroe Islands, Greenland, Svalbard and Åland Islands.

I've been playing around with ideas for introducing the detective fiction theme for January. Would it be reasonable, given the other topics, to define detective fiction as books featuring a detective who is not a member of law enforcement, but who does work as an investigator? This means the detective in question can't be a police officer or an amateur. There is a wealth of choices, even with these limits, from Sherlock Holmes, Hercule Poirot and Lew Archer to the modern takes on the genre like Kate Atkinson's Jackson Brodie.

What does everyone think?

Sounds exactly right, to me.

#226 by @RidgewayGirl> sounds great to me as well.

#226 exactly, a private investigator like Sherlock or Spenser or Brodie etc…

I can't wait to get started!

#266 - Like! I can then dip back into Sue Grafton's The Alphabet Mysteries series with private investigator Kinsey Millhone in January!

Sounds good! It will allow those of us who jumped on the Fer-de-lance bandwagon to proceed as planned.

That's pretty much the way I would define "Detectives". I am looking forward to starting as well, and I think I have also decided to add a Nero Wolfe to my January lineup.

That sounds exactly how I would define "Detectives". I can't wait to get started. I have decided that I will also slip a Nero Wolfe into the January lineup.

Yes - sounds good. I also have the Fer-de-lance to read on my bookshelf :)

I'd say that's how I'd define it too. I just finished a Robert Crais Elvis Cole book which I think fits the bill and I have more in my TBR pile.

>226 RidgewayGirl: That works for me! There is a little overlap with the hardboiled/noir genre since it seems like the hardboiled crime novels feature private detectives, but I think that's OK.

Just no one read Stuart MacBride until Noir/Hardboiled!

Eva and Sandy - over on the GEOCAT we were discussing the possibilities for CAT tricks and we thought that it would be difficult to get one in April because the Nordic area was scheduled for August. Being that Nordic mysteries were the only category that was geographically specific and that we wanted to read cold mysteries in hot weather, I was wondering if Nordic mysteries and British mysteries might be switched monthwise - do you think that might be possible?

->238 cyderry:
I'm not sure I'm understanding you right since British mysteries and Nordic mysteries are equally geographically specific - and in the same part of the world. Or am I misunderstanding you completely?

well, British mysteries are a bit broader because of the widespread locations of the British empire over time. A British mystery could be set in Africa, India, Canada etc. depending on the timing - where Nordic mysteries can only be set in Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, and Iceland. British authors often write of other locales. I'm not sure about Nordic authors.

>238 cyderry:: My only small concern with the switch is that it'll put British mysteries and Classic/Golden-age back to back, and an awful lot of the mysteries in the latter category are British. It's not an insurmountable problem. People could focus on British mysteries that are not Classic/Golden-age in the first month, and in the second month, we could also concentrate on non-British mysteries, or we can just have lots of overlap, but it would be nice if the two categories were slightly further apart. I'm covering the Classic/Golden-age month, and I'd be fine with having it moved to another month if that helps.

->240 cyderry:
I see what you mean. I can't think of any British mysteries that take place in eastern Europe, but there probably are. If the consensus is to switch, that's fine.

I think people need to relax about this. The "tricks" are supposed to be hard to accomplish, these extra challenges are supposed to just be extra fun, etc. Is it going to be that horrible if you don't manage a "trick" one month, or don't manage all the categories? Just sit back, relax, and enjoy your reading.

** Hands in the air** Okay, I give in. I was only trying to make it possible.

>243 .Monkey.: Well said! I need to be reminded that this is fun - not a contest!

->244 cyderry:
Well, if you don't bring it up, then the rest of us won't think about it at all, so always better to suggest.

If we stay the way we are now, I can think of one for you off the top of my head: The Dogs of Riga. Depending upon what the RandomCAT will be, of course.

I think just to be mean, I might have to make my Random Cat really really hard to use for a CATtrick (but not impossible) ;)

@ 247 -- The evillest idea? "Read a book that is not a mystery."

HA! That's not likely to happen. .. Its pretty difficult to find something that no one has written a mystery about in some way or another!

I've been going over my TBRs and found loads of books that meet the criterias so I'm making list of what to read when. Can that on the wiki now?

that'd be fine by me.

BTW - I've been putting suggestions including authors and websites in as comments so we can easily see actual reads. Hope that's okay with everyone.

To do that you just put a space before you start typing your info.

A few final things now that we're pretty much ready to start -- do we want our detectives to post their introductions into the MysteryCAT wiki? When would we like them to do that? When do we want to have each month's MysteryCAT posted? Would it be a good idea for people to post appropriate books to the wiki to help people find a suitable book/add to their TBRs? Or is that best saved for the appropriate threads?

do we want our detectives to post their introductions into the MysteryCAT wiki? --------- Yes
When would we like them to do that? ---------- whenever available
When do we want to have each month's MysteryCAT posted? -------------- one month prior
Would it be a good idea for people to post appropriate books to the wiki to help people find a suitable book/add to their TBRs? ---------------- Yes
Or is that best saved for the appropriate threads?-------------- No, it will be much easier to find in the Wiki

Will we be choosing focus authors or topics for each month? If so, maybe it'll be best to do this in order of months instead of all at once (as with the GeoCAT). Since there is much overlap in the categories, I'd like to make sure I offer candidate focus/authors that's not too close to ones chosen for previous months.

I think folks adding what they are planning to read to the wiki early is a great idea. If a member doesn't like that particular book, still they can look at the recommendations for that book and perhaps find other ideas they like better.

As "lead detective" for November's historical mysteries month, I have to say, I am nowhere near ready to post an intro to the wiki yet. It's 12 months away, so I was kind of assuming that I wouldn't have to think too much about it until at least the middle of 2014!

ETA: I guess my question is, do we need to have all 12 intros posted before the start of 2014, so that people can plan out their reading? I'm willing to go along with whatever the majority decides, but personally I think 1-2 months of advance notice should be sufficient.

I think it's more "get it done whenever you can, the sooner the better, but at least a minimum of one month before it's scheduled."

I'm sure a lot of us have a pretty good idea what each category is. So don't sweat getting your intro up really early. if you can, great. but for late in the year I can't see where it needs to be so soon as now.

>258 .Monkey.:- I agree

So, would people be ok with "post on the wiki when you can, but at least a month early, with threads opening (with the intro put in) a few days before the start of the month"? Or should discussion not be opened until the month in question?

sounds good!

What exactly is expected for the intro?

@ 261 -- I'm good with that.

>263 cyderry: Beats me. Whatever you come up with. We're winging it.

263> I would expect a description of the genre (for those of us that a generally genre-blind), some good example titles and authors who write in the genre.
Maybe also what the category is NOT, as that can sometimes help define the limits of the CAT.

Yes, like pointing out that if there are serial killers, it can't be a cozy!

>267 RidgewayGirl: Doesn't that depend on the tone? As far as I'm aware it just means they're more lighthearted/humorous, with no focus on the gruesome. Like many of Agatha Christie's works, most notably the Miss Marple series titles. A grisly stabbing with lots of blood isn't cozy, but someone putting some poison in the tea is still suitable.

Ah, you have a point. Maybe no graphically described dismemberments?

Yup, those don't fall under cozies. :P Think in terms of "Murder, She Wrote" if that helps, lol. Nothing gory or violent, nothing dark or sexual, the murders themselves are only lightly touched on, it's all about solving the crime, finding the clues, and generally it's a "small town" (or semi-secluded in some other way) where at least one of the characters knows all about everyone.

I think there may be great interest in January's thread because it's the first one and, speaking for myself, I'm excited and impatient... then the rest of the months as long as it's up before the month starts, maybe a week or so in advance to coordinate any shared reads that might pop up?

I think a short intro with a few suggested authors would be enough and I hope that the group discussion will then build on that? There is already a link to the SAPL website in the wiki which lead to a page which explained the difference between hard-boiled and noir crime. A subtle difference that I did not know before now.

Are we going to put books into the wiki as and when we like? I think it should be ok as it's easy to pop books in and out and it might be nice to see what the trends might be. It might help the lead detectives too to see where the group is heading.

Since I have January, I'll put it in the wiki this weekend, so as to give people time to find books, if they haven't already.

Here's another suggestion - why not have the month's special agent add a Challenge in the TIOLI challenge so that any shared reads would count there too! By bringing our monthly mysteries to the attention of the TIOLI readers we might get more participation as we go along.

#273 by @cyderry> oh absolutely.

Actually, the important difference between hard-boiled and noir is that in hard-boiled the 'sleuth' is a private eye - a licensed detective, he is brought in from outside to solve the case. In noir, the 'sleuth', is someone personally connected to the case, the accused or the victim, etc. He is in the case because it is personal.

The private eye might develop a personal interest in the case, but he was still hired in the first place. It is not unusual for a hard-boiled detective to get taken off the case for one reason or another, but he stays on because of his own sense of duty, or something. But he was hired to begin with.

Is "hard boiled" an American genre, as well? I keep encountering it as a description of how mystery writing differed between the US and Britain, with Britain going more for the cerebral detective and the US preferring one who was more rough-edged.

#275 by @mysterymax> that definition of noir does not fit 'tartan noir'. So I think it is evolving.

That's a definition of hard-boiled. Not sure on how we would define Noir, although there is a strong element of grittiness and realism. Often there are no clear 'good guys' and it is often not a mystery novel in the traditional sense; crime novel may be a better descriptor.

@277 Yes, it is evolving, but that was the traditional difference between noir and hard-boiled. The difference between noir and a 'crime novel' I guess would be in the amount of darkness.

@276 Yes, Hard-boiled detectives were the American donation to the mystery genre. That also is evolving, of course, as more countries will find their own Sam Spades.

another definition of Noir Crime: Of or relating to a genre of crime literature featuring tough, cynical characters and bleak settings.

ETA:

Hard boiled: the hardboiled fiction deviates from the tradition in the detective's cynical attitude towards those emotions. The attitude is conveyed through the detective's self-talk describing to the reader (or—in the film—to the viewer) what he is doing and feeling.

The two categories seem to be closing in on each other.

For the purposes of our mysterycat could we discuss what we should consider a "historical" mystery. There is no set answer - see this from Wikipedia -

The historical whodunnit is a sub-genre of historical fiction which bears elements of the classical mystery novel, in which the central plot involves a crime (almost always a murder) and the setting has some historical significance. One of the big areas of debate within the community of fans is what makes a given setting historical. Most (but not all) agree that it should involve a time before the book was published. But how much before? 25 years? 50 years? 100 years? All have their proponents. Others think the setting should be X number of years before the author's lifetime, or before the readers' lifetime. There's also a lot of debate over how much historical accuracy is required to make a given setting historical rather than fantasy or alternate history or really just a modern story in fancy dress.

When I read for myself I count anything before WWII as 'historical' no matter who wrote it, or when. I'd like to see what everyone else thinks.

I think the cut-off should probably be a bit later than WWII. I certainly think that both the Korean & Vietnam Conflict eras should be in historical (even though I was living during one of those). Most historical mysteries will be earlier than those anyway. I think we should consider whether or not the book was written as a historical mystery. A book that was written during the 1960s or 1970s with a mystery set in the Vietnam war would not qualify; however, a book written now that was set then would be historical.

I personally like 1950 or thereabouts as the cut off -- but whatever the majority thinks.

Sorry to appear dense, but could someone explain the difference between "Classic, Golden Age" and "Cozy"? For example, is an Agatha Christie mystery a "classic" or a "cozy"?

Agatha Christie could be both, there's an overlap there. But there are some classics/Golden Age that would not be cozy and lots of cozy mysteries that are contemporary and so not at all classic/golden age.

Raymond Chandler Philip Marlowe series starting with The Big Sleep - classic but not cozy
Murder is Binding (Bookstown #1) - cozy but not classic - published 2008

>285 kiwiflowa: Thanks! That makes sense.

>284 LoisB: Also the definition of cozies was discussed in posts 265-270

> 284 I saw that discussion and thought I understood cozies, but the classic then had me confused. I was, incorrectly, thinking that the categories were mutually-exclusive. Now that I realize there is overlap between the categories, I think I'm OK. Time will tell . . .

Yeah there's probably a ton of overlap between many of them, just the way it goes when you try and subdivide a genre so much! ;)

I'm not going to worry about overlaps. I'm just going to enjoy the reading!

> 290 Check!

I will be running the "historical mysteries" thread in November, so I'm glad to be seeing people's ideas about this topic! Here are my thoughts on the types of books that would be appropriate:

(1) Any mystery set in an earlier time period than the one in which it was written. So, as thornton37814 said in message #282, "A book that was written during the 1960s or 1970s with a mystery set in the Vietnam War would not qualify; however, a book written now that was set then would be historical."

(2) A true crime book, or any book about a real historical mystery, such as The Daughter of Time (about Richard III and the princes in the tower) or Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil.

(3) A book in which the sleuth is a real historical person, like the Jane Austen mysteries by Stephanie Barron or the Oscar Wilde mysteries by Giles Brandreth.

Personally, I think a book that fits any one (or more) of these categories can be considered a "historical mystery." What does everyone else think?

Interesting variations on the theme! I definitely agree with 2 & 3. Regarding #1, I'm not sure why Rebecca would not qualify as a historical mystery, but the same story written today would qualify. Personally, I think anything written more than 50 years ago would qualify. But, I can live with the definition in #1.

>293 LoisB: It's something people forever debate. Whether something that takes place during the time that it was written can be considered "historical" in setting, when its setting is "today" to the writing.

I described #1 in that way because that's how I've always considered "historical fiction": fiction set in an earlier time period than the one in which it was written. So, for example, since Charles Dickens was writing in the 1800s, A Tale of Two Cities (set during the French Revolution) would be historical fiction, but Oliver Twist (set in Dickens' own time) would not. But as PolymathicMonkey says, it's definitely a widely debated subject. For the purposes of this CAT, I would be OK with defining #1 as "a mystery set in a time period earlier than our own." But maybe other people feel more strongly?

Since there's likely not going to be a consensus, I'd say suggest it as you've said, but if people want to interpret it slightly different, then that's up to them.

>295 christina_reads: I guess it depends on whether you look at it from the writer's perspective or the reader's - a stage right, stage left issue. Either way, I'm happy just trying to stir up conversation on a quiet Sunday afternoon! :)

>295 christina_reads: I've always viewed historical fiction the same way, although I'm not super-nitpicky about cut-offs for dates and eras. (If I was so inclined, I could write a novel about the Chernobyl disaster in April 1986 and argue that it's historical fiction, because I wasn't born for another six months. I don't think anybody would buy my argument, though.) I tend to look at it from the author's perspective because of authorial intent. Agatha Christie did not intend to write historical fiction when she wrote The Secret Adversary in 1922 with a setting of 1922, probably with little research as to the culture of the time, even though the book can now be used to examine British culture in the early 1920s. However, she clearly intended Death Comes as the End to be historical fiction as well as a mystery, as it's set in Ancient Egypt and contains information Christie learned while working in the Middle East with her husband, who was an archaeologist.

An example of where things get a bit hairy under my rules (and makes me want to write some exceptions): Caddie Woodlawn (published 1936, set in the 1860s) is historical fiction, while Little House on the Prairie (published 1935, set in the 1860s) is not. Both are novels based on true stories about girls growing up in the "olden days," but the former was written by Carol Ryrie Brink about her grandmother, while the latter is semi-autobiographical. Brink and her grandmother were alive at the same time for X number of years, but Brink was not alive when her grandmother was a child. Laura Ingalls Wilder was alive for all of her own life.

Laura Ingalls Wilder was alive for all of her own life.

*snort*

Well I couldn't think of a better way of putting it!

So The Murders on the Rue Morgue would not count, nor would any Sherlock Holmes? But the Kinsey Milhone mysteries would because Sue Grafton is writing them now, but they are set in the 1980s.

I agree with rule 1, although I have a slightly longer cut off. I tend to think an event needs to be outside living memory when it is wrtten. So fiction written now about WW1 would count, but not WW2. Yes, the lines are all arbitrary, you just have to comfortable with where they're drawn for yourself.

295> I'm not sure I could agree with that for exactly the reasons casvelyn has in that first paragraph of post 296. fiction that was written as comtemprary doesn't, to my mind, become historical fiction simply because 75 years have past.

301> I agree that Sherlock doesn't count, but the 80s are within living memory (probably within Sue Grafton's memory too) and so would fail my elapsed time definition. But that's mine, you might have a different acceptance criteria set than I do.

>301 RidgewayGirl: You have the concept down, but like Helenliz above, I also don't think of my own lifetime as being especially historical ;) so no, I wouldn't count those either.

Personally I'd have to go back to at least the 70s if not the 60s, before really thinking of something as "historical," and it would probably depend on the kind of setting also. If it was just daily life in the 60s with nothing special going on except that the author wanted to include some small thing that wouldn't work today, then I'd not really think of it as historical yet (I agree that the WWII cutoff is a decent one). But if it was because they wanted to set it in the midst of "Flower Power" then that would have a historical significance, you know? That's my own notion of it.

I would think that anything written in the present about the past is a work of historical fiction, whether the book is set in Roman times or in the 1980s.

Or we could say any book set before xxxx, and include books written by people writing at the time the book takes place.

But saying book y, set in 1750 is historical because the author wrote it in 1800, but book z isn't because the author wrote it in 1780 is splitting hairs.

Or we go with the Category Challenge tried and true method of saying a historical mystery is what you say it is, letting people define something that could be argued for days all on their own. And yes, that will result in someone not reading something that they don't think it fits, with another person reading that same book because it does fit their definition. Or do we need to form our own definition?

Of course, we could quibble happily up until November and then just go with however our fearless lead detective defines it.

Oh, like I said above, I'm all for simply suggesting specific definitions but then it's simply up to everyone what they actually choose to go by. After all, these are just for fun, it's not like some sort of prize-winning situation with legal requirements ;)

However, I don't think it's splitting hairs to say "historical is something before your lifetime" (which includes the author at the time of writing) or at least, before the better part of it if you've already lived a full one. Which is pretty much what we're saying.

305> "historical is something before your lifetime"
I'm reminded of a visit to a museum of rural life to which we took Grandma. She was most upset that a number of the displays related to farming in the 30s&40s. She said she used to use those (and you didn't do it like that) and she didn't think that she was history quite yet.

I laughed at the time, but I find myself equally aghast that the 80s are considered history!

I think there is an important distinction if a book is describing events that are contemporary, in memory or are beyond memory. I think it will colour the book and that it does make a difference to the style and content. What you write at the time will be different from what you remember, which will change when the next generation will record 25 years further down the line and will be different again 100 years hence.

Which is why I agree that there should be a suggestion (and this could be a date or years elapsed), but actually it's up to each individual to decide what fits their interpretation of the genre.

>306 Helenliz: Yes, definitely agree with all that. Writing about modern day is not the same as writing about history. It gets trickier if you try to take into account things like the Caddie/Laura example above, but I suppose if someone has reached old age and considers their childhood as "another time," it could count. That said, I'm only in my thirties, I'm pretty sure my childhood is not considered historical at this point!

Putting mystery aside - I feel that there are certain events that are "historical", i.e. Kennedy assassination, landing on the moon, Watergate, etc. and even though they happened during my lifetime, that doesn't make them less historical. Just because one person can actually remember a particular time and event, doesn't mean that it should be excluded. My mom is near 90 and can remember the great Depression and WWII, but I can't.

Which is why I agree that there should be a suggestion (and this could be a date or years elapsed), but actually it's up to each individual to decide what fits their interpretation of the genre.

My suggestion is - the 20th century and before.

I like that.

Time for a new thread. Last order of business, and hopefully the last vote of the MysteryCAT, is to choose a logo.

1.
2.
3.

Vote YES for the first logo.
Vote NO for the second logo.
Vote UNDECIDED for the third logo.

1999 is historical? Yikes. But yes, the significant events was what I was saying, even if something wasn't as far back as would really be considered historical, if it was about a particular large event/situation then that would still go under the history umbrella.

How do we determine if an event is significant enough to make a book that incorporates it historical? Arbitrary though it may be, a cut off date is easier than saying that one book is historical fiction because it mentions Sadat's assassination, but another is not because a presidential election is not significant enough, etc...

I personally think we should leave the interpretation up to each of us. The fewer rules the better, in my view.

>306 Helenliz: There's a museum here in town that has toys from my childhood on display (we're talking late '80s/early '90s). It's just not right!

Haha, this "historical" conversation has really snowballed! My thought is that, when the time to post the monthly thread arrives, I will post a suggested definition of what constitutes a historical mystery. (I'll try to incorporate as many of your ideas as I can!) This can be used as a guideline for people who aren't sure about the definition or who want to make the CAT a bit more challenging. But as far as I'm concerned, as long as you have some sort of rational basis for it, you can define "historical mystery" however you want!

Can someone tell me if In the Bleak Midwinter fits as a January MysteryCAT, detectives?

Sure, why not? While a main character is in law enforcement, the protagonist is not. I say, read it.

I thought we determined that for "Detectives", the sleuth needed to be a professional investigator, but not law enforcement. In Bleak Midwinter, Russ is a policeman, but Claire is a priest - not a PI. I don't think it fits. However, it's a wonderful series and I'd still encourage you to read it.

ETA - found it - post #226

I think you're right, Sandy. Where would it fit? Cozy? Series, for sure.

Yeah, we don't have an amateur sleuth category. I'll stick it in series, I guess. Darn.

Cozy, I guess. Or series. Either one would work for our purposes. I seem to recall a "what genre is it" discussion on the author's website some time ago, so it's not an obvious classification. Can we squeeze it in as a police procedural?

I'm all for loose definitions and people calling it like they see it. Although this would be a suitable CAT for a sub genre police officer to lay down the law.

I think of In the Bleak Midwinter as a cozy. Many cozies include an amateur sleuth who teams up, to some extent or other, with a professional cop, whether a family member, a boyfriend, or just someone agreeable.

As for historicals, I enjoy Ed Gorman's Sam McCain series set in the 1950s. I think of these as historicals, even though they're only slightly before my date of birth. The first is The Day the Music Died.

#322 I don't want that job!

Three Doors to Death - Rex Stout COMPLETED - CAT Trick!