LizzieD: 2013*11 (October: National Novel Writing Month)

MOST SIGNIFICANT FROM THE THREE QUARTERS OF 2013

The Sisters Brothers
Above All Things
Precursor
Defender
Hotel World
The Brontes: Wild Genius on the Moors
The Philosopher's Pupil
Explorer
Dr Thorne
Cleopatra: A Life
The Shutter of Snow
Life After Life
Master of the Senate
We Are At War
Life and Fate
When We Were Bad
Eleanor Roosevelt, Volume 1: 1884-1933
A Particular Place
The Wasp Factory
Religions of Rome
Embassytown
The Daughters of Mars
The Letters of Nancy Mitford and Evelyn Waugh

READ IN NOVEMBER
Not So Quiet...
The Dragon Reborn (reread)
The Luminaries
The Light Years
Before the Dawn: Recovering the Lost History of Our Ancestors
Destroyer

NEW TO MY HOUSE IN NOVEMBER
Shadow and Betrayal - AMP
The Daedalus Incident - Kindle Daily Deal
Burn - PBS
The Swimming Pool Season - PBS
The Sea Room - PBS
11/22/63 ✔ - AMP
Borderline - PBS
The Ice Princess - Kindle Daily Deal
The Preacher - Kindle Daily Deal
The Stonecutter - Kindle Daily Deal
Ankle Deep - PBS
The Stuff of Thought ✔ - AMP
General Practice - AMP
Alien Emergencies - AMP
Aristocrats ✔ - AMP

CURRENTLY READING

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Are you open for visitors? Did you really mean to title this thread October? Either way, I'm checking in!

Glad to see you, Genny. I missed the time slot (if there is one) to change the title, so it will just have to be wrong for a month. Maybe I can get it right in December.
Meanwhile, you're most welcome here!

Hi Peggy - I'll be interested to hear what you think about The Luminaries. Nice new thread.

5: 5 minutes? 10 minutes? Also Jeremy would correct thread titles if asked. Maybe one of the newbies would too.

Peggy, congratulations on your latest thread - will you be writing anything for the Novel Writing Month?

Katherine, I don't know how long we have, but I didn't know until I posted on the html help that there was a time limit, and by the time Mamie answered me, I'm sure that it was long gone. I hate to bother admin about something that I was silly about. Oh well. Thank you for dropping by, and thanks to Beth too. I didn't get to read much today; I'm not into the wonderful part yet, but I like it very well.

I'm sure they won't mind fixing it, but I do understand your reluctance! I didn't know there was a time limit at all...... it's great that there is - I feel there didn't used to be?

If only I could finish what I'm writing. That would be cause for major rejoicing!

Hello!
Your top pic makes me want to be a writer, I have actually often thought there is a write in me somewhere, but mainly as I like the look of the neat hand-written word.

Go the Luminaries, i hope you really enjoy it and have time to read quite a few pages at a time.

Lovely new thread, Peggy!

Happy new thread, Peggy!

Nice new Thread, Peggy.
Are you doing NaNoWiMo, or is this just marking its existance?

Lovely new thread, Peggy. I'm assuming that November is National Novel Writing Month, but I know LT doesn't let you change the name of your thread.
So, are you writing a novel this month? :-)

Lucy, I guess this thread is for you because I am certainly not writing a novel this month, Helen and Ellen! I do support novelists though - in more ways than one. And, yes, I meant November instead of October again. *sigh*
Thank you for good wishes, Roni and Reba and Megan. Megan I'm off to make some progress in The Luminaries NOW! I wish I were reading it with you though...... That reminds me to ask. My copy is on the Kindle and it doesn't seem to have a glossary. Does the print version have a translation of those Maori phrases that Te Rau says? And what kind of mineral is pounamu? I'd think it were opal if it were not described as being hard.

The Luminaries is picking up a LOT of positive steam here on LT. Hope you enjoy, Peggy!

I'm working on it, Nancy - except for an unfortunate tendency to nap when I get quiet after lunch!
And I just learned that pounamu is jade. I didn't know that NZ was famous for it. My apologies!

I can tell you there is no translation of the Maori phrases in the physical edition of The Luminaries Peggy. Lovely new thread:)

Thanks for the info, Bonnie, and I'm glad you like my thread! I'm headed over to see what you thought of the book if you've gotten to your review.
Meanwhile, I'm taking time out to finish Not So Quiet...

Hello! Also hoping to get some serious reading done in The Luminaries this week. The first chapter is promising. :)

Hi, Jenn! I put down *Luminaries* to finish my other book, which I now have done!
(Boo! The Touchstone worked perfectly above, but it works here only without the ellipsis.)

Not So Quiet by Helen Zenna Smith

This is quite some book, detailing the experiences of a middle-class young woman who pays to outfit herself to drive an ambulance in France during WWI. It is followed by a feminist "Afterward" in my Feminist Press edition, which is also quite some piece of writing. The latter explains that Evadne Price saw no service, but novelized the journal of a volunteer as the woman's answer to All Quiet on the Western Front; the proposed title for her book was to have been All Quaint on the Western Front - a response that I and apparently Ms. Price found obscene.
This is mesmerizing reading. The volunteers were looked down on and abused: made to drive the ambulances at night without lights in snowstorms into the wee hours of the morning and then to be up at 7:30 and ready to clean and disinfect their ambulances, service them to keep them running, clean their own quarters and the cook's quarters, and continue to transport wounded or dead men through the day - all on spoiled, badly cooked food. The opening scene has Tosh, the leader of the group, cutting her hair and burning it and the lice that have infested it. Thus begins a graphic, eventually over-the-top narrative not only of the horrors of trench warfare but also of the jingoistic "flag-wagging" of the parents back home.
The "Afterward" is a feminist reading of the book - sometimes incisive, sometimes silly to this reader. The whole experience is intense, and I won't forget it quickly.

Peggy, great review. It sounds intense, as you say, but also well worth reading. I'm adding it to my wish list. I had to look twice at the proposed title. Who could have come up with that?

Thanks, Jan. Isn't that weird? It was proposed as a parody. Good grief!

Peggy, are you aware that the Virago group is doing a theme read of the Great War next year and Not So Quiet is one of the books scheduled for July/August? The group wiki that Laura created for it is right here and the thread is here.

I will be looking forward to this one because of your enticing review....All Quaint on the Western Front notwithstanding.

Thanks, Bonnie. I did know in a vague sort of way that the Viragoes were planning to read about WWI. I have plenty of other things to read too, but I'm not exactly sure they'll count - or that I can wait until next year to read Into the Silence: The Great War, Mallory, and the Conquest of Everest. I'm having to slap my hands to stay away from it right now, even with all the good stuff I have going on.

ETA: Nope. Has to be a Virago or Persephone author, so I can read W. Davis when ready.

There I was thinking "it's just 8 posts I missed", but there was already a new thread hidden further up on my endless list of unread threads... So Happy November Thread, Peggy!

Only seeing the thread title I realized it's NaNoWriMo again. It feels like the last one has been just 4 months ago, and it's a full year already. Year after year I want to join the fun, year after year I have to postpone it...

I am glad I read The Luminaries so early. I am always having problems with books that are so widely beloved on LT, because I just want to love them as well and then don't really relax and am more critical than usual.

When I read it I first got the Kindle test chapter. That part was perfect, it just ended with the 12 men in the room and the first one beginning to tell his story. Enough to make me buy the book and read on. Then followed a very slow part and only once more of the men had told their stories and the interconnections became visible, the pace took up again. From then I couldn't stop reading. So don't worry about "not loving it yet". That first chapter takes its time.

Peggy, I'm happy to see such praise for Not so Quiet. I put off reading it til next year because of the theme read Bonnie mentioned. I hope you'll join in for some of that!

A novel worth reading on the same topic (and more fun) is Enid Bagnold's The Happy Foreigner. A Virago, of course. She did drive an ambulance. I have thought of it often since. She captures some of the rudeness and difficulties, but one thing a feminist might not be able to appreciate through the lens of indignation was that for most of these women the freedom was exhilarating and very real. I was amazed by what they were asked to do and what they saw and endured, but there were also marvelous rewards and unexpected wonders. I quite recommend it if you haven't read it or got it on your shelves already. Have you?

Hi, Lucy, Laura, and Nathalie! Lovely to have you here.
Nathalie, I'm notorious in my own mind for not loving what everybody else loves - except that it happens less often at LT than in the real world. I'll pick *Luminaries* up again this afternoon. As Paul said, there's just enough to keep me reading until the good stuff starts. I've only just met Anna Wetherell (?) in the flesh.
I see that my page following the cast of characters is blank, so I'm apparently not getting the sky chart for some strange cyber reason.
Lucy, I have read and enjoyed The Happy Foreigner. I agree with you about the value of the book, and the feminist essayist also praised it. HOWEVER. In the book the character was transporting officers. She had a vastly different war from the ambulance drivers. These women were starved and lice-ridden with chilblains to boot - no thought of having the village make a dress for a party. (And part of the contrast between *All Quiet* and *Not So Quiet* is that soldiers and volunteers basically exchanged gender roles. The men had to stay in their trenches and wait; the women were out moving from place to place and maintaining the machinery, etc. That's her argument greatly simplified.) (Romain absolutely hates the Bagnold book and absolutely honors the Smith.)

Hi Peggy! I almost wish I'd bought The Luminaries for kindle because the hardback is so big it's rather an intimidating book to pick up and there's the added pressure of a library deadline...

#22 Great review of Not So Quiet (why not on the book page?). I think your review has moved that on to my definitely pile for next year (it's an imaginary pile - I don't have a copy... yet) Ditto The Happy Foreigner.

Heather, I was thrilled to have birthday money to spend on *Luminaries*, and at that, I could afford it only for Kindle.
Thank you for liking the review. There are a couple of good ones on the book page that say what I said, so I didn't bother to put it there. Glad to be helping with your reading next year!

Interesting - I hadn't thought of that. And you're so right, she didn't drive an ambulance. Was there a 'class' difference in which women got the job driving officers about? (And I wouldn't be surprised if looks played a role....) I'll bet, eh? Bagnold does romanticize aspects of her experience, surely, but not all the time, certainly and I remember thinking how tough they all were - sitting around in the cold and snow constantly. My main take away was the character's exhilaration at being 'free'.

I don't think that there was a class difference - or at least, it doesn't show up in the Smith book. The leader of the ambulance drivers is an earl's niece. Hard to say about looks; even the prettiest girl would have been haggard after a month or so in the ambulance corps ("bodies" in war is another great topic in the "Afterward") but because they were women's bodies, they were still attractive to men.
My take away from *Foreigner* was her ability to enjoy her love interest while it lasted and to be able and ready to move on - and that equals freedom for sure!

Head lice: gack!

Tui, I've just picked up an interesting piece of information from another of my books that I'm reading/not reading, Before the Dawn. They can date the time that humans began wearing clothing ( some 72,000 years ago) by DNA extrapolation of when body lice evolved from head lice. Nice.

36: Sigh. Wishlisted.

Katherine, I know all about the sigh, but I have it on good authority that it's worth the time.

THE DRAGON REBORN by Robert Jordan

This reread of *Wheel 3* was pretty good for me. In fact, I think it's one of my favorites because we spend so much time in Tar Valon with the Aes Sedai. I tend to like the beginnings of fantasy series better than middles and maybe even better than ends. I think I'm going to rest awhile although I did open *Wheel 4* and start reading immediately. I think it puts Rand among the Aiel, and I like that part too. Weave away!

72,000 years ago, eh? That's quite a bit of time. But what a creepy bit of information!

I haven't read any Robert Jordan but if you like it maybe I have to reconsider!

Lucy, it's a strange mix - sort of mediocre characterization at best but such inventive world building that I just keep reading. I know that some of the late middle books are slogs, but I'm going to try this time.
Yeah, the body lice/clothing thing is just a sort of appetizer before he gets into evolutionary basics. Chapter 3, which I'm aiming for, is titled "First Words." I'm finding it very readable so far.

A note to everybody interested: Anna has gotten the gold out of her dress, and I'm finding more reasons to keep reading The Luminaries....... Whew!
And while I'm at it ---- I spent the better part of an hour today cleaning up a document in which I had increased the font size. Is there any way to keep the original format when making this change? I'm seriously bothered!

41: This is Word or something similar? It should retain other formatting (bold, italic, etc) if you change font size. So maybe an errant click was involved?

Oh, thank you, Katherine. It is Word, and I guess I used the wrong word. What happens is that suddenly a line breaks off after a few words, on the next line there may be one word, then another line that breaks off before the end - and I have to go back and restore paragraphs, and in the case of this last wreck, topics and sub-topics which have paid no attention to their indentation, etc.

43: Ew. Yeah, that's formatting too. And it shouldn't change with font size either... but maybe there were explicit line breaks inserted in the original? (You can see formatting marks by clicking the button with the backward P symbol.) Is this a document that come from someone else so you don't know what was done to it previously?

One reason I hate Word is that it does that and I never figured out an easy cure. As Q says, sometimes, if you 'reveal' the formatting you can find a mark that you can eliminate and cure the problem. However. I have had that create more problems.

I don't use Word anymore. And I am a happier person overall.

If you have made the font larger, sometimes decreasing the width of the margins helps with this. I don't like Word. I use WordPerfect, so I don't have this happening.

I used to use WordPerfect too, and I liked it about a thousand times better, but everybody that I work with has Word. Katherine, the original, long-ago document is one that I reworked and saved - specifically a chapter in our church's manual of operations. It has a LOT of headings and sub-headings, etc. I'll look at the formatting if I can find it, but I got this one fixed. The thing is, I have many many chapters to go.
Speaking of church, we fed 30 + folks today as we take up slack for the soup kitchen that isn't open on the weekends. Now I'm off to swim, and then maybe I can read a little. I dream.

I'm another WordPerfect user who loved it. But I have also long since converted to Word. Grrr.

Yes, I preferred WordPerfect because the coding was easy to see and correct but, unfortunately, Word seemed to take over the world. What do you use instead Lucy?

@LyzzyBee is a whiz with Word, she often writes blog posts about various tips & techniques. Maybe she could help.

Oh! Thanks for the tip, Laura.

I continue through The Luminaries. At 323 of 849, it's good but not fascinating yet. Should I be fascinated by now? Also, should I be remembering all that explanation that she lays out as each character is introduced? It goes right over my head. I pretty much see only what they do.

I didn't even know there was an alternative to Word anymore. I hate when I have that same formatting problem Peggy!!

By the way, nice new thread!! :)

Peggy, the NYT Book Review has republished this review, which ran the day after the Booker Prize announcement. Rereading it this morning I was reminded of the novel's Victorian structure, and the similarities to Dickens. Does this add a teensy bit of fascination for you?

As to your question about remembering everything, I took notes initially but gave up on that. As you move out of Part I you'll be reading about some of the same events from different perspectives. I admit I was riveted from the start, but the different points of view really added to the story.

#38 Glad to hear you enjoyed The Dragon Reborn Peggy. The Great Hunt is waiting patiently for me...

The Luminaries is also waiting, but less patiently.

Well, Laura, no, not really. I get the Victorian ambiance with the modern time-shifting. I just am not riveted and can't really think why. I'm still maundering through the first part though, so maybe it will pick up for me after I have been introduced to all the characters. I think those long character descriptions are off-putting.
Hi, Tina. If I find that I can understand the formatting marks that Katherine has suggested I check, I'll let you know. It will be at least another week before I get back to that project though.
Hi, Heather. I'm not sure why I can be happy with hundreds of pages of no characterization at all in Jordan and not put up with a little analysis in Catton. I'm a sad case.

I use Pages - the Apple writing program. I adored WordPerfect.

Hi Peggy! Stopping by after my long break to visit a few threads and I see you're reading The Luminaries, which I just finished. I ended up loving it--but will here offer only that it very literally 'picks up speed' as you move along.

Also a Pages user, but when I used Word for work documents, I would have the same problem. No fixes, though.

Hi, Lucy and Roni. You make me feel that I'm at least not irredeemably stupid.
Anne! It's lovely to see you and you make me feel better about *Luminaries* too. It's not bad at all, but so far it hasn't taken fire. I live in hope.

Pages isn't brilliant, but neither is it annoying. Although every now and then I discover something nice that it can do.

I'm going to need a new computer before long and have been thinking about going with Apple, partly so it will play nicely with my iPad (where I have used the mini-version of Pages). Any issues sharing Pages docs with people who are on Word?

>58 AnneDC: I just am not riveted and can't really think why

Neither was I Peggy but it did grow on me as the novel moved along. She gave many more details about the characters than any other writer I can think of. I think there was method to her madness but possibly too much method. If that makes any sense.

I have to say that this isn't a problem I've had with word, but it does seem to revolve around formatting. The only time I could see this occurring is if I had designed a page with certain content on specific lines and then changed the type size. That would alter what goes on what line? Eg, if something was centered, or I wanted a page break after a specific line, but only because the line seemed to end at the edge of the page?

I actually preferred the XP version of Word, which I used until it no longer worked my latest PC. I use it all day every day and it more or less does what I need it to do. I use Word for Mac as well. If I need to use something else, I'll just cut & paste the text into Google Docs.

ETA: Too much method is a problem I have with many authors. Too soon to tell if Catton (in this instance) will be one of 'em.

I use Google Docs a lot when I have 'sharing' to do - it's quite easy! You can move anything from Pages right into it with no muss or fuss.

Ah...there's one I've never used but I'll keep it in mind if/when I get an Apple.

Yeah, I use Google Docs too, and in fact, it's the only way I know to get pdf (which is what my document was originally) into something I can edit. Oh dear. I should be working on this, but I'm not.
One thing I am doing with a lot of pleasure is reading the first Cazalet book, The Light Years. This is "sweeping family chronicle" with a little special spice. I'm very happy to have the original four books at hand. Bonnie, you give me hope about the Catton.

Peggy, I'm listening to the audiobook of this right now, too! Only about three chapters into it, and I plan to relish it for at least another week or two. I got the just-released fifth volume of the Cazalet saga for my UK Kindle and am going to re-read the others (which I read at least a decade ago, possibly even longer) before I try it.

Reading it is awfully good too, Suz. When I finally finish the first four, the new one will likely be available for not much $ over here.
Meanwhile, another day and a half, and I will have finished with the Dry Tortugas and Ft. Jefferson and Dr. Mudd for the study club program I have coming up on Thursday and can get back to my own stuff!

SNOW FLURRIES IN SE N.C. AT 9:45 as I live and breathe. Goodness gracious! I don't know that I ever remember snow in November. Below freezing tonight and back in the 70s by next week. Crazy, crazy, crazy.

Hi Peggy-
I only ever had problems with Word since I started using it on a Mac. When I was at work (not on a Mac) it was wonderful, and I had a handle on it. Since I have been fiddling around with my CV here at home on the old Mac, the formatting has gone awry, it is a total pain to fix. I ended up re-doing the whole thing. (and even then when I emailed it to myself to see what it came out like- parts of it had moved in transit!!).

So I feel your pain.

All Quaint on the Western Front, sounds like piggy-backing to me. The other title is better. I'm not sure if I am interested n reading it or not though....probably I am.

Re: Snow flurries, in November!? We had snow in November last year (the year before) too. Crazy indeed!!

#70 Snow?! We had our first frost here overnight but no snow (and hopefully none for a while).

I am really tempted by the Cazalet books - they are not many £ for kindle over here at the moment.

I'm so impressed that you had flurries!!!!

We're having Santa Ana's and temps in the 80's -- also weird for November

Ha, I see Reba beat me to our weather report!

Normally, our first frost drifts---but you and my son in Raleigh are not used to snow flurries this early Peggy. I'm sure it's melted by now but I can assure you ours is not:-)

Oh dear, Bonnie. Ours was so wet that it melted on contact, but you're right. I've never seen flurries this early. Good luck to you!
Reba and Roni, you're just in a place apart! We'll be in the lower 70s by the weekend, but that's not 80s.
Hi, Lucy and Heather! I am quite enjoying Cazalet 1, but I said that before. I would advise you to get them while the getting is good. That's me: always buy the book!
Welcome, Megan! I'm sorry that you feel my pain and I feel yours. I'm going to try to do better when I get to the next chapter. Meanwhile, *All Quaint* was supposed to be a parody, but the idea gives me creeps. Not So Quiet is war from a woman's pov.
I did my study club program today, and got applause, so I'm relieved and happy! (Thanks, Jim the nephew, for the hint about Manhunt!)

You must be relieved to have that done!

I'm now about 2/3 or 3/4 of the way through Cazalet 1 and enjoying the mini-portraits of the characters. Even the most unsympathetic of them (well, perhaps not Edward) becomes sympathetic when we see them through their own eyes.

A good book to listen to with a streaming cold!

Just sleet up here at the beginning of the week, and nothing stuck -- but then, here it's seasonal, not like in NC!

I am extremely relieved, Lucy!
And I'm about 3/4 through Cazalet 1 too, and torn between relaxing into it and wanting to tear through to get the children older and see what will happen to them. Edward - grrrr. Hope the cold is streaming less unless that's a sign that it's going away.

Happy 92nd Birthday to my mama! She wore her new outfit to have lunch and play bridge this afternoon, and I believe that she was a happy woman. I know that she's a good one - the best, in fact!

Hi Peggy - Have fun celebrating with your mother. Enjoy the Cazelets -- I enjoyed the series and am happy to see there's another one.

Hooray for your mom, Peggy!

HAPPY late BIRTHDAY TO YOUR MAMA!!

I'll convey your birthday wishes to my ma, and I thank you for them, Roni and Lucy. Beth, we did have a good day, thank you very much!

Happy 92nd, Peggy's mom!! Well done, I'd say : ).

#77 I am quite enjoying Cazalet 1, but I said that before. I would advise you to get them while the getting is good. That's me: always buy the book!

Done!

Happy birthday to your Mama! I will be happy if I can play bridge when I'm 92.

Happy birthday, Mom!! What a wonderful age -- 92.

92 and still playing bridge. Priceless!

Thank you, Heather, Reba, and Colleen. The bridge part of the brain is something else. Mama's older sister was still playing well into her 80s with Parkinson's, when everything else was gone. I have a friend who could play soon after she came out of a coma from a car wreck. She would drift off to sleep during cards, but her bidding was sharp as could be when she was still relearning to dress herself. I, on the other hand, still have problems, never having learned a lot of the rules in the first place.
I progress through *Luminaries* - 56%, but no love yet.

I've wrapped up Cazalet #1, and am now forging ahead into #2, so that I don't lose the thread of the individual stories. When I first read them, I was doing so more or less as they were appearing (or as I was getting my mitts on them -- they started becoming available pre-Amazon, so it was pretty much what I could find, when I could find it.) So I do remember it wasn't always easy picking up and carrying on, despite the fact that EJH kindly offers a synopsis at the beginning of each book.

Cold definitely diminishing, but noisy neighbor warming up. Ho hum.

Hi Peggy. Just skimming through. I see that you are working your way through The Luminaries. I plan to read that early in 2014 and it may be the novel that pushes me over the edge to purchasing some kind of e-reader. It's huge! But I do have a friend planning to send it to me, so maybe I'll stay in old-fashioned book territory for just another month or two. :-)

It is very cool that your mum is playing bridge at age 92, even though it sounds like there are other areas in which her cognitive functioning is compromised (how could it not be at age 92??). Brains are fascinating. I am set to read something by the brilliant Daniel Siegel sometime soon --- Mindsight seems like a good starting place. I heard him speak at my conference last month and he was awesome.

Have a good week, Peggy!

Wishing you a Happy Week, Peggy!

I quite loved The Luminaries despite its flaws. I must check my review, there were a couple of stylistic elements I criticized (I agree to "too much method") and one major plot issue that really annoyed me and still does (but you aren't even there yet, I'll maybe post that one only when you're finished). But there was also "something" not rationally explainable that fascinated me, although I usually don't like historical fiction or adventure stories. I didn't much think of "return of the Victorian novel" or "yay, it's like modern Dickens". The experience was more like reading during childhood when there are new magic worlds opening on every page. Maybe it is simply that Catton hits some old childhood nerve with some readers - and with others not, depending on what they read back when they were kids.
I believe it's what many others felt with The Night Circus where I never even made it through the Kindle test chapter.

Must take a closer look at those Cazalets...

Waving hello. I am a Google Docs user too. I switched over when my kids started using it at school.
At first, a few things threw me a bit, but I love the option to share, etc.

Glad you're enjoying The Luminaries more.

I'm with you Natalie on the Night Circus I did finish it although I'm not sure why.

Luminaries - 71%; no love yet. I'll be interested to see if I can spot Nathalie's plot issue when I get to it. I don't see it as modern Dickens or Victorian either. Oh well. And one day I hope to read The Night Circus; like it or not, if I start it, I'll likely finish it. And do have a look at those Cazalets - you and Lucy both.
Hmmm, Suz, I had thought I'd be able to give the Cazalets a little break, but I'm not sure that I'll want to. I still have a hundred or so pp of #1. I keep throwing go-away curses toward your neighbor, but they seem to be missing her. I'm all for a well-timed bagpipe.
Hi, Ellen! I didn't mean to suggest that my mother's cognitive skills are impaired at all --- she is sharper than I am 99% of the time. For example, she still counts the church's weekly income and keeps all that straight. In fact, the only time I see her confused is on rare occasions when she gets chronology mixed up - thinking that I knew her great-aunt or not realizing that I knew my great-uncle or something like that. I don't know Dan Siegel's name, so thank you for dropping it here.
Jenn, I hadn't used Google Books before, but I certainly will when the need arises again. I do use Google Docs although I'm sure that I miss a number of opportunities.
And on the book front, I went a bit wild at PBS and ordered 3 of the Nevada Barr Anna Pigeon mysteries, so they'll be showing up soon. I skimmed the first one again so that I could say a word about her to the study club since our theme this year is National Parks. I have some catching up to do in the series for sure!

I'm with you Natalie on the Night Circus I did finish it although I'm not sure why.
Oh yes, right beside you on that one. I finished it, but more because I needed a book with a title beginning with N than because I thought it a good read.

#96 Peggy, I'm enjoying and liking The Luminaries but not loving it yet either.

Appreciate your thoughts on The Luminaries, Peggy. Hoping to get to this one over Christmas.

>96 LizzieD: & 97 Add me to the list of those who read The Night Circus but isn't sure why

Oh dear. Oh dear, Helen and Reba. Your negatives about Night Circus explain why I was able to get it from PBS so quickly after it came out, I guess. Oh well.
Nancy, I hope that you are as enthralled as our other friends here with *Luminaries*. May it improve for both of us, Heather!

Well, I happened to really enjoy it, Peggy, so you never know.

Thanks to the discussion here, I am now 20% into The Light Years. So far just wonderful, I finally get an idea who's who without having to check the character list every 5 minutes. The writing is a bit "Virginia Woolf light", so much better done than in Unexploded.

Thanks, Roni. That's encouraging since I have it on the shelf!
Nathalie, I'm very happy that you're enjoying *Light Years*. I really liked it from the very beginning; of course, it's going to get darker here and there as war approaches. I don't know *Unexploded*, but I don't think I much want to.
My hopes for a sofa afternoon were dashed at various grocery stores, so I still have a few teens % of *Luminaries* to go. Maybe tomorrow.....

Hi, Peggy! Just drifting through to say hello.

Belated birthday wishes to your mom!

Thank you, Terri. I'll pass the birthday wishes on!
Meanwhile, I'm flummoxed to see that I haven't entered my extensive S. King holdings. What's up with that? Oh dear. Oh dear.

Oh, how could you miss cataloging him? Maybe they were in the catalog and disappeared into some alternate universe, or a monster deleted them or something . . .

*grin*

Oh no- no love yet for The Luminaries and only a few chapters left. I hold out little hope. But good on you for persevering with it....it is not exactly short. I loved it, and had the exact opposite feelings for The Night Circus. Apart from their polarising natures, I don't think they are comparable.

Happy belated to your mother! It is so great that she is still out there doing fun things.

Hi, Megan. It is so great that Mama is still out there doing fun things! Have I mentioned that she's in the pool 5 days a week doing aqua-aerobics with one day of water zumba? She's not just messing around either! And you were right. The book never won me.

THE LUMINARIES by Eleanor Catton
I am gladder than I can say to have finished this one. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't the ineffable experience that I had hoped for. I'm sorry about that for a number of reasons, and I feel disappointed and out of the loop and - some word that probably exists that I can't think of.
I didn't see the point in the astrology, and without that the whole structure seems contrived and pointless - rather like sticking a feather boa on a pig. I didn't think that the writing was stellar although I thought it quite adequate. For an experiment in playing with point of view, I'd suggest The Jewel in the Crown instead. I guess I felt like this Guardian reviewer without her positive reaction to the questions the book is supposed to raise - except that I didn't find it the "consummate literary page-turner":

"The Luminaries has been perfectly constructed as the consummate literary page-turner.

But it is also a massive shaggy dog story; a great empty bag; an enormous, wicked, gleeful cheat. For nothing in this enormous book, with its exotic and varied cast of characters whose lives all affect each other and whose fates are intricately entwined, amounts to anything like the moral and emotional weight one would expect of it. That's the point, in the end, I think, of The Luminaries. It's not about story at all. It's about what happens to us when we read novels – what we think we want from them – and from novels of this size, in particular. Is it worthwhile to spend so much time with a story that in the end isn't invested in its characters? Or is thinking about why we should care about them in the first place the really interesting thing? Making us consider so carefully whether we want a story with emotion and heart or an intellectual idea about the novel in the disguise of historical fiction … There lies the real triumph of Catton's remarkable "book.
The Guardian, Kirsty Gunn (Sep 11, 2013)

Oh.
I cant help but feel disappointed for you!
I was really carried along by The Luminaries. The story pulled me in and although the characters didn't make me fall in love with them, I was very interested in their stories. But mainly, I just loved the way Catton put her words together.

I do like Kirsty Gunn's review though. Does that make me fickle? :)

111 Does that make me fickle?
There's an internet rule - if you have to ask the question, the answer is usually yes. >:-)
But there's nothing wrong be being contrary, I don't think self-consistency is listed as one of the virtues so you're OK there.

Interesting that you didn't get on with the Luminaries. Not everyone is going to love every book and a less than positive reaction is sometimes more valuable than the gushing positives. That's sometimes the downside of the online review, very often people who love it shout, as do those who hate it, but the voice of the merely disatisfied is swamped.

I keep thinking about The Luminaries and just realized that the non-investment in its characters was part of the fascination for me. They are cardboard figures, sterotypes maybe, but this worked well for me. Maybe because the whole setting was so irreal, I didn't need realistic characters. But this was exactly where I had the problem with - WARNING BIG SPOILER, don't read unless you have read the book!! - the star-crossed lovers. When this came up, for a minute I wanted to throw the book against the next wall and scream "Romance??? You make me read 600 pages of great adventure story and mystery to explain it all with a LOVE STORY??" And for a romance you need believable characters and to feel some chemistry, and that was completely missing.
Luckily this thing in the end was just one element among many others, although a major one.

I continue to feel my pain, Megan, and some guilt thrown in too. I did think that the setting was fascinating. Nathalie, where we part company is that I didn't think it was a great adventure story - O.K., but not great. seems that I'm the contrarian here, and I'm glad that Helen forgives us.....and makes a very good point about the swamping of the dissatisfied voice.
Oh well.
On the other hand, I'm hoping to have time to finish The Light Years today, and I like it even more that Suzanne did, so I'll jump into the next one eagerly.

110: Oh dear. I'd added it to my wishlist based on a number of rave reviews, but "Or is thinking about why we should care about them in the first place the really interesting thing?"... well, that won't do it for me. Not for 800 pages.

Katherine, I'd advise you to try the sample at Amazon to see whether the writing appeals to you. The stopper for me in the Gunn review is "an intellectual idea about the novel in the disguise of historical fiction" ---- uh --- what's the idea? Now I feel disappointment, guilt, and stupidity.
I also see that today's Kindle Daily Deal is 11/22/63 for $1 less than I paid for my hardcover copy, which will take up shelf space when I've worn out my hands holding it to read it. Oh well. Again.

Peggy, fabulous review of The Luminaries. I'm disappointed you didn't enjoy it, but we can't all have the same view of a novel. I haven't read it yet, so I will be most curious. Btw, I think your review is most thumb-worthy, and I went to apply same, but you haven't posted it. Will you?

Nancy, you're such a dear - and I hope that you join the majority of readers who find *Luminaries* something wonderfully special. I don't think I'll post the review (although I cherish the thumb in my heart) because the Gunn review that I quote is already on the book page and because other people have pretty much also said what I thought.

THE LIGHT YEARS by Elizabeth Jane Howard

I loved this book! I thought that after the wonderful Mary Hocking trilogy, I would regret taking up another family saga about England between the two world wars. Not so! I'm completely charmed by the Cazalets - the families of three brothers as well as their parents and various in-laws. I guess this isn't great literature or anything, but I was eager for a treat, and I'm off to start Marking Time almost immediately.

I'm so glad this 800+ doorstop isn't calling to me!

Oh dear Peggy, I perfectly understand your frustration at not loving a book that others have raved about because its happened to me before too. I truly believe that not every book is meant for everyone. It's a shame it happened for you with a book of such incredible length. It did read like an adventure story for me. I thought the whole astrological bit was an affectation that added nothing to the story but I really liked the story itself. I'm glad you found satisfaction with The Light Years which I have added to my teetering tower.

OTOH I will be reading The Jewel in the Crown in January and the rest of the series in Feb./March/April. I'm hoping I'll like it as much as I've enjoyed A Dance to the Music of Time. I'm really looking forward to it.

Reba, I'm wondering how you got so smart.....
Bonnie, I'm thrilled that you're going to read *Raj Quartet*. Is it a group read? I may not be able to resist rereading it. I'm never sure whether it or *Dance* is my favorite series. I'm not sure that I'll want to read one a month though.

Not a GR Peggy. Just me making a reading plan. It could be a GR if people wanted to join in I guess.

There's a group read for the raj quartet in the 2014 challenge group. March, May, July & September (I think).

I may also read part at least of the Raj Quartet next year, Peggy.
The Jewel in the Crown was released in the year of my birth (1966) and I am going to try and read a book from every year of the last 150 years next year (1865-2014)....for no particular reason other than stark raving lunacy.

Have a lovely weekend Peggy.

The Raj Quartet is wonderful. I was introduced to it via the TV series which aired here on PBS, and then read the books. Great stuff so I'm looking forward to watching others experience it for the first time. The TV series is also very well done.

#110 Congratulations on finishing The Luminaries Peggy! I tried my best to understand the astrological references when I started reading but soon gave up. It sounds like I enjoyed the story itself more than you did though, and I did find it a page-turner in the end.

I'm confused by this quote from the Guardian review: "It's not about story at all. It's about what happens to us when we read novels – what we think we want from them – and from novels of this size, in particular." I didn't get that at all from my reading - perhaps I read too simply? Oh well.

I have The Jewel in the Crown and sequels and your recommendation is tempting me towards joining in the group read next year (although I suspect I'm already overbooked).

#116 "Now I feel disappointment, guilt, and stupidity." Peggy, despite enjoying it, I feel something of that too. I hate to feel like I missed or misunderstood the point of a clever book and it does leave me feeling ashamed, embarrassed and stupid for not 'getting it', whatever it is.

#119 I've started The Light Years and am enjoying it a lot so thank you for the recommendation :-) I'm one who always prefers a good story/good characters to great literature I think.

Great summing up of your sub-luminary experience reading The Luminaries.

You know what? I think I may have read at least one of the Cazalet books - Elizabeth Jane Howard - yes yes - and I was hungry for more, I must go and look at her author page.

I hope that means that all of you - Bonnie, Helen, Paul, Heather, and maybe even Laura will join the group read. What a jolly group! (Hearty sigh, Paul. You were born the year I graduated from college, which makes me old enough to be your mother.)
Heather, I'm glad that you enjoyed *Luminaries* more than I did. I'm really not sure about that quotation except that the story left me a bit cold - a lot of words for not very much kick. I guess I assume that Gunn felt that way too. Anyway, you make me feel better about being disappointed, guilty and stupid. Lucy, you do too! Hope you both are enchanted with E.J. Howard. And I must say that great literature often has a good story with good characters. Then there's somebody like Dorothy Dunnett, who doesn't write great literature and makes me work hard, but whose story and characters suck me in every single time. I know many folks can't stand her, so once again it's a matter of de gustibus.

Some exciting reading plans already taking shape for 2014! It's getting to be that time of year again … almost. But first, I get to put up my Christmas tree and enjoy it for a few weeks : ).

I might like to read The Raj Quartet again. I loved it! The Masterpiece Theater version is wonderful, too!

Ha! Peggy I surprise my friends with my age just because I look, sound and especially feel much older.

Well, Paul, I don't think that you look much older.....
Beth, I fell forever in love with Charles Dance. I was thinking about reading *Raj* again since I have enjoyed *Dance* so much this year. The more the merrier, I say!
Nancy, I have a hard time believing that it's almost the new year. We, however, do not put up our tree much before Christmas Eve (we'd wait until then if DH had his way), but we do leave it up until Epiphany. There I am out of step with the rest of the world again.

Well I really hadn't planned on reading Raj the way the GR is doing it but if we are going to have so many of our 75ers joining in the GR I would be happy to change my plans Peggy.

Peggy, this discussion of The Luminaries is fascinating. I loved your comment that the astrology part was "...rather like sticking a feather boa on a pig." I may borrow that saying. I haven't yet read the novel and plan to do so early in 2014. The review by Kirsty Gunn is interesting and I find myself a bit worried. I generally care a lot about characters in novels and the better novels make me care about the characters more (I don't have to like them, but they have to interest me). Catton's novel sounds like it will provoke some reflection on this relation with fictional characters, in any case.

>>!33

Really? Even after Mr Tulkinghorn?? :)

(I ended up watching Bleak House and The Jewel In The Crown at around the same time - now, that was a freaky experience!)

>136 lyzard:: Really? Even after Mr Tulkinghorn??

Oh yeah, that was a blow. I too was in love with Dance after The Jewel in the Crown and couldn't believe what a total jerk he was in Bleak House!

#136, 137 He made a good Max de Winter.

>138 CDVicarage:: Oh my, I bet he did.

Oh yes, Kerry, Max de Winter didn't change my mind about Charles Dance. Mr. Tulkinghorn, I had surpressed. Thanks a lot, Liz! And watching those two together was freaky at least! (Laura, he was a perfect Maxim!)
Ellen, I hope you are among the millions who love *Luminaries*. She certainly tells you a lot ABOUT the characters, and I was never sure how much of that I was expected to absorb and apply to their actions. In my case, the answer in my case turned out to be "not much."
I'm reading my DNA/evolution book and my *Foreigner* and starting 11/22/63 --- having read over 100 pp, I still consider myself just starting. All good! I do feel the demand for literary fiction growing, so I'm trying to finish something quickly to make room.

Hi - I'm in a crazed packing mode, but just wanted to add my vote for Charles Dance.

I can see, more or less, what Kirsty Gunn was pointing out (and that review snippet makes me more eager to read HER book next month...) -- that we have a certain set of expectations with respect to a novel like this, whereas what Catton is doing is challenging those and giving us a novel as much about structure and ideas as of characters. Which is, I think, why my efforts to start it have bogged down. Oh well, I certainly will be trying again. In the meantime, I have earmarked some much more enticing fare for the Thanksgiving long weekend.

Charles Dance -- drool. Yes. Big time. That series... I swear, I bought the DVDs just so that I could drool over Dance. Even worse than Tulkinghorn, however, is Dance's character in Game of Thrones, where he places Lannister pere, and a colder, icier individual I have NEVER seen on television. Although I must confess I had a simultaneous crush on Kenneth Branagh, who is probably the antithesis of Dance. And I still cherish my personally inscribed copy of the precocious Branagh's early memoir...

I'll be interested to hear what you think of the structure of the book, Suz. It didn't mean a lot to me, so I'll be glad to be informed.
Oh dear. Charles Dance as the elder Lannister - I think it must be those heavy eyelids. *sigh*
I'm here to not rejoice too much that I got a November ER ARC, Egyptomania. I did the happy dance twice lately and haven't received either my September or my October book. They are two that I really want, so if they choose to arrive at the same time, I won't even complain.

Peggy, Thanks to you, I signed up for Early Reviewers. I requested and won :) Alexander McCall Smith's newest in the #1 Ladies series. It is the 14th book. Only one problem, I think I haven't read the last few, so maybe I need to catch up before I get that one in the mail. Hopefully my library has them. I had listened to all of the ones I've read while I was still working. But I am not in the car as much these days, so won't have the time to listen to all of them. My win is an audio book.

Wow, Cathy! That's great! ---- and I hope that the book is too!

Just registering my presence.... nothing I can comment on, rilly.

#129 Just finished The Light Years and I am aboslutely enchanted with EJH. Very tempted to start the next in the series straight away but I think I need to read something slightly less emotional first.

Thanks for the visit, Lucy. Heather, that's how it struck me too. I think I appreciate M. Hocking's writing more, but EJH knows how to write a family saga!

Hi Peggy - I'm glad you're enjoying the Cazalets. I know I read through the series quickly. I'm so happy there's a new one. That will be on my list for next year. Hocking is another one I want to try.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

Hi Peggy,
I am really enjoying the discussion on The Luminaries- or is it getting to the point now where it is a discussion on discussions of The Luminaries? It is so nice to read intelligent, ego-free and calm points of view.
Just another thing I love about this group.

Happy Thanksgiving, Peggy! Hope you have a good one.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your whole family, Peggy!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Happy Thanksgiving right back to Roni, Lucy, and Katherine, and to all the rest of you who are celebrating today!
Megan, I agree with you 100% and love us too! As for *Luminaries*, I can see the 19th century parody. What I'm having trouble with is the something brand new for the 21st century. Help!

Happy Thanksgiving, Peggy : ).

Peggy, hope you're having a great Thanksgiving

Hope you've had a wonderful Thanksgiving Peggy.

Hi Peggy! Happy belated Thanksgiving. Sorry I've been away for so long, but I've been out of town with family medical stuff.

You can count me as one who loved The Night Circus! It was a 5 star read for me! Different strokes for different folks, as they say!

Thank you for Thanksgiving wishes, Nancy, Reba, Bonnie, and Tina. I hope that you are all also having a memorable holiday/weekend! I didn't make my holiday rounds, I'm sorry to say as I have been reading as much as possible to finish a couple of books by tomorrow. I'm not going to make it with my *Dance* volume - left starting too late, but I should finish the Cherryh tomorrow and I've just now finished my DNA/evolution book.

BEFORE THE DAWN: RECOVERING THE LOST HISTORY OF OUR ANCESTORS by Nicholas Wade

I think that this is a fabulous book: 5 stars from me, no problem! Even given the rapid advance of science which probably makes a lot of this 2006 synthesis outdated, and given the fact that Wade is a scientific journalist instead of a practicing scientist, I feel about 1000 times more informed than when I started it, and 1000 times more entertained. The book concerns itself with a recap of the ways in which human genetic research is shining bright light into the remote areas of our pre-history, and his thesis is the fact that we are still evolving. As well as I can tell, Wade did his homework, and his scholarship is thorough and accurate. He is also a writer, and that fact assisted this non-scientist to follow his arguments easily and to be enthralled through the whole book.
I was particularly taken with his emphasis on the development of language and languages - and on the development of religion at about the same time to offer a check to new-made liars. Not only does he not question Proto-Indo-European, he posits the existence of one ancestral language before the first brave troupes made their way out of Africa into the rest of the world some 50,000 years ago, and going further back, one "Adam" and one "Eve." (There. If that doesn't tickle your curiosity, I give up.)
I leave the book amazed and humbled by the staggering amount of research being done in fields that I hardly knew existed and proud after all to be a member of this human race.

On a weekend that my American friends count their blessings I want to count my own and primary amongst them are all the friends introduced to me through this wonderful group, you included Peggy.
Have a lovely Thanksgiving weekend.

Hmm, I think I need to read that DNA/evolution book. I've been intrigued by some of the genetic testing being done, including being able to trace more or less where my ancestors came from and identify people with whom I might have shared an ancestor 500 years ago. I'd love to know one day why Spaniards think I'm Spanish, and Syrians/Jordanians insisted that they think I'm originally from the Middle East. I have a pet theory, completely incapable of being proven. Which is that one of my distant ancestors ended up in el-Andalus, and his descendant then was on the Spanish Armada, some of whose ships were wrecked on the coast of Ireland. My coloring is what's known as "black Irish" -- very dark hair, quite pale skin, distinctly blue eyes -- and the folk saying is that's due to those Armada types. Wouldn't it be cool to follow those threads back in time? Even if one's ancestors are utterly mundane, the things they would have witnessed -- like my g-g-g-g grandmother, whose first memory was seeing Napoleon cross a river in Germany en route to invade Russia. We know this, because she told her granddaughter -- the youngest daughter of her youngest child -- whose own child, my cousin Ruth, is still alive. Ruth and I are separated by three generations but only about 24 years, because the generation gap got wider over the last 150 years!

Paul, you are a blessing all around! And my Thanksgiving has been full of the stuff that demands gratitude so far.
Suzanne, I think you will be entranced by the book. How fascinating that you have a story from your g-g-g-g grandmother! I can go back (because I haven't read my mother's cousin's genealogy work) only to a g-g-g grandmother (I think) who fell into Charleston harbor getting off the boat from Scotland. (She was pregnant at the time, but she had the baby safely, and hence, I am here.) There's no family story of what she said! And how exciting that you know her g-g granddaughter! My maternal grandfather's family was the opposite with a generation gap that worked the other way. Mother's first cousins were 30 years or so older than she was.
Anyway, who knows what genetic testing might show up!

Actually, I know her GREAT granddaughter, not her g-g- grandaughter. It's quite cool. But those ancestor -- Richard Mayberry and Margaret Schweier -- are as far back as we can get on that family tree. Ruth has done a lot of work on Margaret over the years and turned up nothing. Richard was born in Ireland, and we're almost certain we know where. (It's eerie; the family farm in Ontario has the same name as a place where the suspected Irish link lived; when I visited the town, I went straight to the only four or five graves in a 300-grave cemetery that belonged to Mayberrys -- if I were at all susceptible to such stuff, I'd assume someone was guiding me...) But via another corner of the family, the g-g-grandmother who moved from Vermont to Ontario to work with her aunt and then married into the Mayberry clan, I can trace my roots all the way back to the early 1600s and the Boston area. In fact, I'm now living only minutes away by car from where they lived circa 1700, in Rehoboth and Attleboro. That's how I'm related to Hemingway, etc. The family whose surname I bear I have traced back to 1750 in Scotland, even held my g-g-g grandfather's birth certificate in my hands, thanks to the lovely folks at the Scottish records office. (yes, against rules..) My mother's side is in part more opaque, although I have found a Co. Leitrim muster roll that gives one of my g-g-g-g-grandfathers as the sergeant and the other as his new recruit. That was 1797; by 1825, both families had sailed for Canada and within a few more years, their children had married each other there. It's so much fun to put together the pieces of the puzzle.

Just jumping in, Lizzie, to report that since Wade's 2006 book, new data and new calculation methods have pushed back the date for clothing to around 170,000 years ago. That is interesting, but to me (in case this isn't entirely obvious) the mind boggling fact is that we can know such a thing at all. The universe, the Earth, human beings, so often contain their own history, if only we know where to find it and how to interpret it in its archived forms.

And thank you - thank you! - for Daughters of Mars, and I am off to track down that Mallory book you mentioned! A happy Thanksgiving and holiday season to all --

159> That sort of information always boggles my mind too. I've read The Seven Daughters of Eve where there's research to suggest that via the maternal line we're all descended from one of 7 women, and then goes on to discuss where and when. Fascinating stuff

Belated happy thanksgiving Peggy!

Suzanne, great grand-daughter is cooler........ Way cool, in fact. (Nobody is impressed by this but me, but I knew my grandmama well who knew her grandfather well who was born in the 18th century. I still get a frisson when I type that and have to check quickly to be sure that it's so - but yes, he was born in the late 1790s. So some of her attitudes that I thought were pre-Victorian really might have been.) No wonder you want to do a book about genealogy!
Thank you always for jumping in, Stellar Friend! From 42,000 to 170,00 years ago is an impressive jump in my mind. Amazing, isn't it, to think that everything is there waiting for us to winkle it out. I'm very happy that you feel about *DofM* as I do, and we, therefore, owe thanks to Suzanne for reading and writing about it first.
Helen, *7 Daughters* does sound like it's in the same ballpark as *Dawn*. I'll look for it. Wade actually pushes the mitochondria back to one woman, but then he goes on to trace 13 strands (I think).
And Now! Even though I won't finish my *Dance* today and will read two next month, I get to spend some time deciding what else I will read. I think I'm committing to Steven Pinker's The Stuff of Thought: Language as a Window into Human Nature. I have pulled some other things to browse in this afternoon, and I can always hope that one of my much-desired ER ARCs will arrive today or Monday... I won Egyptomania in November, and while it appeals to me, I don't LONG for it as I do for Ancillary Justice and Elizabeth of York.

DESTROYER by C.J. Cherryh

Book 7 in the *Foreigner* series, and beginning another trilogy - I have to say that it's not my favorite. I read and read and read and it seems to me that CJC is never going to get the thing off the ground. Then suddenly we have Bren and Company planetside and back on the mainland, and things start to pop. I raced through the last 60 pages this morning and would have been compelled to do that even if it were not the last day of the month.
It's a temptation to pull book 8 and to start reading immediately, but I'm going to try to wait.
I guess what I want to say is that this is a great and glorious series, and that even people who have no patience with science fiction might well become addicts.

> 167 James Burke in his old documentary tv series Connections used to talk about how we were 3 grandfathers away from the beginning of the industrial revolution -- remembering what your grandfather told you about his grandfather's recollection of his grandfather. Or grandmother.

>168 stellarexplorer:: I loved that TV series! I loved the way he would weave seemingly disparate events together.

Lovely discussion! Love to read about those snippets that survive down the decades and centuries.

I have also read The Seven Daughters of Eve - - and if I remember correctly the 7 refer only to the ur-mothers of the European area. Worldwide there are a lot more - although it is quite likely one can eventually trace back to one woman. I don't doubt that actually, as most likely there was some unbelievably advantageous alteration genetically that catapulted one 'line' into prominence.... hard to say what it might have been - could have been purely physical or it could have been some cognitive shift. From studying ethology I am aware that one of our 'features' is that we remain 'neotonic' - a charming word that describes the flexible brains of the young mammal that can absorb and process way more information way more easily. Humans keep this ability (potentially - often not utilized) throughout life, although I also believe it likely there is a lot of variation in that regard.....anyhow we never really 'grow up' and our flattened faces (which are characteristic of infant mammals) are one of the indications of it. It's why even though we're so smart, we're really pretty stupid......

And from wikipedia....not that this is the best source.... but it is interesting.

Neotenic traits in humans

These are neotenic traits in humans: flattened face,5 broadened face,13 large brain,5 hairless body,5 hairless face,14 small nose,14 reduction of brow ridge,5 small teeth,5 small upper jaw (maxilla),5 small lower jaw (mandible),5 thinness of skull bones,13 limbs proportionately short compared to torso length,13 longer leg than arm length,15 larger eyes,16 and upright stance.1017
Human evolutionedit
Main article: Human evolution
Many prominent evolutionary theorists propose that neoteny has been a key feature in human evolution. Stephen Jay Gould believed that the "evolutionary story" of humans is one where we have been "retaining to adulthood the originally juvenile features of our ancestors".18 J.B.S. Haldane mirrors Gould's hypothesis by stating a "major evolutionary trend in human beings" is "greater prolongation of childhood and retardation of maturity."5 Delbert D. Thiessen claimed that "neoteny becomes more apparent as early primates evolved into later forms" and that primates have been "evolving toward flat face."19 However, in light of some groups using arguments based around neoteny to support racism, Gould also argued "that the whole enterprise of ranking groups by degree of neoteny is fundamentally unjustified" (Gould, 1996, pg. 150).20
Stanley Greenspan and Stuart G. Shanker proposed a theory in The First Idea of psychological development in which neoteny is seen as crucial for the "development of species-typical capacities" that depend upon a long period of attachment to caregivers for the opportunities to engage in and develop their capacity for emotional communication. Because of the importance of facial expression in the process of interactive signaling, neotenous features, such as hair loss, allow for more efficient and rapid communication of socially important messages that are based on facially expressive emotional signaling.21
Other theorists have argued that neoteny has not been the main cause of human evolution, because humans only retain some juvenile traits, while relinquishing others.22 For example, the high leg-to-body ratio (long legs) of adult humans as opposed to human infants shows that there is not a holistic trend in humans towards neoteny when compared to the other great apes.2223 Andrew Arthur Abbie agrees, citing the gerontomorphic fleshy human nose and long human legs as contradicting the neoteny hominid evolution hypothesis, although he does believe humans are generally neotenous.10 Brian K. Hall also cites the long legs of humans as a peramorphic trait, which is in sharp contrast to neoteny.11
On the balance, an all or nothing approach could be regarded as pointless, with a combination of heterochronic processes being more likely and more reasonable (Vrba, 1996).
Between sexesedit
Ashley Montagu notes the following neotenous traits in women relative to men: more delicate skeleton, smoother ligament attachments, smaller mastoid processes, reduced brow ridges, more forward tilt of the head, narrower joints, less hairy, retention of fetal body hair, smaller body size, more backward tilt of pelvis, greater longevity, lower basal metabolism, faster heartbeat, greater extension of development periods, higher pitched voice and larger tear ducts.5
Note that Cro-Magnon humans (40,000 to 10,000 years ago) differed from co-existing Neanderthalers in the following ways: "higher forehead, less prominent brow ridges, smaller teeth, less robust bodies, and reduced sexual dimorphism."24

#168 -- yes, that's so true... Look at that Napoleon anecdote -- it's almost 200 years since Waterloo, and yet the anecdote went from the witness -- Margaret -- to her daughter, Agnes, to Agnes's granddaughter, Ruth, and to me. That's three people. That's the same number separating me from my new landlord's comments that I'm a good tenant -- he told Andy, who told Susan, who told me.

What also startles me is the way that relationship networks open up so much. For instance, if anyone reading this has an ancestor who lived in New England in the 18th century, there's about a 50% chance that I'm related to them. Simply because families were so large in those days, and then intermarried with newer arrivals, etc.

James Burke and Connections! I have the book, Stellar One, and I thank you for reminding me that it sits there unread. (What am I doing with my life?!?!?) Laura, I didn't see the series, so I hope that the book will be as good.
Lucy, thank you for all that! Wade doesn't discuss neotenization (?); he does talk about the gracilization of the skeleton, which has to be related somehow.
Ah, Suzanne, the rule of 3 - it all depends on which 3! Relationship networks - is that the same for the South, for instance?
It's all too much for me. I'm going to bed.

I had the computer game based on Connections--it was a lot of fun figuring out all the clues that linked things together.

171: For instance, if anyone reading this has an ancestor who lived in New England in the 18th century, there's about a 50% chance that I'm related to them.
Hmm...

I do not have Connections, and obviously I should.
I do have The Seven Daughters of Eve, sitting in my To Be Organized collection, so I got it within the last year or so. I don’t recall what triggered the purchase but it was almost certainly LT.

Peggy, your thread invites such interesting conversations. I do plan on reading The Luminaries early next year despite your disappointment. I started it and had to return the library book because of time constraints. I'm glad to be alerted to the Raj Quartet group read. I read and loved The Jewel in the Crown but somehow neglected to get back to the series. I think the small print in the paperbacks I own had something to do with it. I may try to get it on Kindle or check out some hardcover editions from the library instead of squinting my way through the next three books.

I didn't get to last month's installment of the Dance either so will be reading the next two books with you. I'm sad to see this series end...but there are many, many books I look forward to reading in 2014.

Roni, that sounds like a great game! Educational too, Mom!
Donna, I very much hope that *Luminaries* lights up the world for you. I'm glad to have company with the last two of *Dance*. And *Raj* - well, I'm excited about going back to India. You have such a treat! You've met Ronald Merrick but not Guy Perron if memory serves. We are in for a great time!
I'm not sure what to do about December thread. I believe I'll think about it tomorrow, Miss Scarlett.

Ah, yes, tomorrow is another day …
: )

Thoroughly enjoying the genealogy/time discussion here, Peggy. I have done a modest amount of digging back in the family tree and am always astonished by what pops up. We stayed at a B&B in the Ottawa Valley to do some poking about old cemeteries, find original farmsteads, etc. Another couple were staying at the same B&B, doing the same thing. After a day, we realised we were related through my maternal grandmother. Our ancestors had come over from Scotland in 1820 on the same boat, had married into each other's families, and there we were, sitting at the breakfast table with the same drop of DNA in each of us somewhere. Degrees of separation.

178: Oh isn’t that cool! My mother went to a local genealogy lecture, and one of the presented examples was a document on one of her ancestors. Turns out that she and the lecturer are distant cousins. All the more surprising because my parents were transplants here in the 1960s, with no known local ties.

How extremely cool, Tui!

Two wonderful anecdotes!

Knowing virtually nothing about anyone past my grandparents, I can scarcely contribute to this conversation :)
My mother does delight in saying, though, that we (her side) are related to Princess Diana, somehow.

>178 tiffin:, 179: Wow, I love that stuff.

Ladies, thank you for the visits, and I hope you'll be able to join me from time to time on the new thread - which I WILL label correctly!!!!