SFFFCAT -- General Thread, part one

So the SFFFCAT, the science fiction, fantasy and speculative fiction CAT, is up for planning. Here's what needs to be done:

1. Determine the general structure. We've talked about dividing the year up into three four-month segments, each month then reflecting a sub-genre or related theme. So, if March belonged to speculative fiction, the theme might be YA or dystopian novels. Does the three sections of four months each sound workable to everyone?

2. Determine the monthly themes.

3. Find volunteers for each month. Volunteers will need to set up a thread a few weeks to ten days before the start of the month in question. They will need to provide a description of the theme/sub-genre, as well as suggestions of titles and authors.

So, let's discuss….

(just so it doesn't get lost, I'll post our chosen monthly themes and volunteers here, at the top where it's easily found)

Possible volunteers:
sturlington
majkia

>2 Samantha_kathy: Could you maybe give some example of what you mean by broad themes and narrow focuses that would apply to the three genres ?

I agree that we could alternate or rotate the genre as SF then Fantasy then Speculative, or any other combination, this way people who don't read at all one genre, would not be excluded for 4 month straight in the year.

I'm open to any combination as I read all three genres :)

in an effort to try to come up with some themes that could (possibly) cross all three/four main genres here's a list off the top of my head:

military/sword and sandal
dystopia
scientific/mad scientists
female authors
alternate worlds/alternate history
cyber/diesel/steam - punk
heroic
historical
paranormal
magical realism (I'm thinking there is an equivalent in Sci Fi: like perhaps The Sigma Force/Pendergast novels)
slipstream (worlds that seem normal at first blush but aren't when you start to look harder)
archaeologists digging up whatever.

Just a few to get us started

In the initial planning we talked about dividing the year among science fiction, fantasy, and speculative fiction, and then having sub-genres as monthly focuses. But in thinking about this more, I think we could set it up so that no one feels they have to read a book with spaceships or one with dragons, if that isn't really their thing.

This year, in June we had Women in SFF month, which I really enjoyed. That month, I read a historical fantasy, a YA dystopia, slipstream feminist sci-fi, and futuristic science fiction. There was the opportunity for lots of variety.

For instance, if we dedicated a month to time travel, that could run the gamut from hard science fiction to Daphne du Maurier's The House on the Strand, which is more of a historical mystery. Alternate history has a similarly wide scope. So my thought is that we consider unusual sub-genres of speculative fiction that many of us may not have been exposed to before, without worrying about whether it's strictly sci-fi or fantasy.

Some other ideas: In the BingoDOG group, we had a lively discussion about "genre benders" so a similar focus might be fun for this CAT. Along with women, we could try a month dedicated to diverse writers/characters. One month could have a historical focus. One could focus on dystopias and utopias, another on imagined worlds.

I would be willing to host a month for this CAT.

I'm not that familiar with these themes as some others, so I'll just be following the discussions. But I was surprised last year when I found books already in my TBR for some of the Award Cats that were for these kinds of books. So I'll probably be participating using the book suggestions each month to plan my reading. I appreciate those who take on months and guide our reading.

>5 sturlington: we could try a month dedicated to diverse writers/characters
I take this to mean people of varying skin colours/ethnicities/etc. who aren't very well-represented in SFF (basically, any people who aren't white, western and middle or upper class).
If so, YES! A month like that would be great.

I went back and dug up the list I compiled when we were doing the voting, so here are even more possible themes in addition to the ones >4 majkia: suggested:

Alternate history
Apocalyptic/Post-apocalyptic
Comic (humorous) fantasy/science fiction
Cyberpunk/steampunk/biopunk/nanopunk
Diverse characters/writers
Dystopia/Utopia
Epic fantasy/science fiction
Fairy tales/Fables/Folklore/Fairy tale retellings
Ghost stories
Gothic/Southern gothic
Historical fantasy/SF
Magical realism
Myths and legends/Mythic fiction
SF/F by women/Feminist speculative fiction
Slipstream or genre-crossing
Soft/social science fiction
Space opera/space Western/planetary romance
Superhero fantasy
Supernatural/Paranormal/Occult
Tech noir
Time travel
Urban fantasy
Weird fiction

>7 PawsforThought: Yes, that's exactly who I meant and why. Also gay and lesbian SF.

#7 and #9: I'm just not sure how we could identify some of those. women yes. there a lists of GBLT authors, sure. And we might know a few who aren't white. But the class stuff seems impossible to figure out.

Oh, and I'd be delighted to host a month (at least for a topic I know something about).

>9 sturlington: Yeah, absolutely.

>10 majkia: Yeah, some things - like class - is not as easy to pick out beforehand. You can often get a feel for what socio-economic background a character has fairly early (and sometimes even in blurbs).
We'll just have to do our best and dig a little.

How about a focus on fiction written in a non-English language?

I occasionally read fantasy and/or science fiction, but not enough to be familiar with the subgenres. I'm interested in reading alternate history and/or time travel, fairy tale retellings, and authors including Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Jasper Fforde, J.K. Rowling, and Connie Willis. I also have the first two books in Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy. I'm hoping that these will fit in somewhere and that I won't have to read them all in the same month!

>13 hailelib: That's a good idea.

Some broad-ranging themes that could cover a quarter or third of the year that I see emerging are:

Authors -- examples: women, diversity (gay/lesbian/minority), non-Western, classic

Other Worlds and Times --examples: imaginary/parallel worlds, time travel, alternate history/reality

Magic and Myth --examples: magical realism/urban fantasy, myth/folklore/fairy tales, paranormal/supernatural/occult

Sub-genres --examples: the "punks"--cyber, nano, steam, bio; dystopias/utopias/post-apocalypse; slipstream or interstitial

Themes -- examples: heroic; historical; military; epic

These are just general ideas. Please add your own or offer alternatives.

How about classics? That could be anything from Heinlein and Asimov, to Tolkein, to Earth Abides.

Verne and Wells would fit classics, too.

I'm really excited about this CAT! I don't particularly like the idea of doing bigger quarterly themes, though...I'd rather each month just stand on its own. I think we'll get more of a variety with the monthly themes that way.

Regarding the monthly themes, I'm on board with most of the suggestions that have already been made. I especially LOVE the idea of a time travel month! An author-focused month seems like a good idea too; maybe we could still do women in SFF for June?

I'd also prefer not to do a quarterly theme thing, but just monthly ones.

I'm really excited about this CAT too! I've been trying to read more science fiction/fantasy genres but have a hard time finding things since I don't really know where to start - so I will be excited to see people's suggestions. I'm super-interested in the steampunk, dystopia/utopia, fairy tales/folklore, tech noir, alternative history, lots of those categories - I probably won't volunteer here since I'm not at all versed in these genres but I am definitely in for the challenge!

As far as doing each month separately vs. broad quarterly themes I think either one would be fine for me, although I can see the benefit of having more freedom in individual themes. I've seen in other CATs where there are monthly themes as well as quarterly reads - maybe that is something that could work here? But instead of a specific book each quarter just a broad theme each quarter? That could allow for series reads if people are into that, or reading larger works. I don't know if that makes sense - I'm still new :)

I voted for this one but now I'm getting a little worried.
I'm fine with the monthly vs. quarterly, but I would really hope that we could do it somewhat like the GEOCAT where we have a focus for the month but we could still decline the focus and just choose something that fits in general or have a few focuses so that hopefully one would be acceptable for most readers.

I mainly voted for this one because I like magical fantasy, fairy tales/folklore, and alternate history. I hope I can find something I want to read as we go along.

>22 cyderry: We could still do that, there's nothing stopping us.

>22 cyderry: I'd love to see some more suggestions for how the CAT can be structured. Do you remember some ideas that came up during the voting phase that got you excited about the CAT?

I certainly think we can include all of the things you mention as well as some of the other sub-genres of speculative fiction that people may be unfamiliar with.

I'm okay with either a monthly or quarterly approach, as long as there is a wide enough group to choose from. I wouldn't want to do a whole quarter of fantasy, for instance.

>22 cyderry: Nothing is decided yet, we're just starting the discussion. We could do things monthly, with themes and focuses like:
Time: Time travel, Alternate history
Fairy tales, Folklore: Original materials, Retelling
Authors: Classics, Non-Western

And so on ...

I wouldn't want to have all the categories broad, because then we lose the focus and challenge aspects of the CAT. On the other hand, if we make them all narrow and specific, we won't get much participation. How about allowing for both? One thing I've liked about the MysteryCAT this year is that it did accommodate both. One month, we did "favourite series", which encompassed every possible kind of mystery sub-genre and allowed me to pick off various things from my TBR shelf. Another month, we did "noir", which made me go find things in the library and discover new authors.

I'd really love to see SFFCAT take a similar approach with, for example, one month on time travel (encompassing SF, fantasy, speculative fiction) and one month on a subgenre like steampunk or cyberpunk.

Let's set up a few things for voting and see where that takes us. Let's continue to discuss, but give this vote until the 15th.

I can see it both ways: I often find that a month isn't long enough, but if the topic were less appealing to me then I wouldn't want it going on for a whole quarter....

My main concern is to make sure that we don't choose super-niche topics that require reading one very particular type of book, but there doesn't seem to be much risk of that so far.

Lots of good ideas in >8 sturlington: . If I had to choose 12 from that list, deliberately trying to include people who don't normally read SF/F, I'd go with:

-Alternate history and time travel (I think these can be merged to allow more flexibility)
-Apocalyptic/Post-apocalyptic
-Dystopia/Utopia
-Fairy tales/Fables/Folklore/Fairy tale retellings
-Gothic/Southern gothic
-Magical realism
-Myths and legends/Mythic fiction
-SF/F by women/Feminist speculative fiction
-Supernatural/Paranormal/Occult

And then a few more categories focused on more "standard" science fiction/fantasy, maybe just "science fiction classics" and "fantasy classics". For the most influential science fiction and fantasy, I really like Locus magazine's lists of the top science fiction and fantasy novels of the 20th century.

Oops, I was posting while the polls were being added.

I find it hard to vote on a lot of them. I think there's a middle ground between "as broad as possible" and "focused and specific", but I don't know quite how to describe it.

Zoe, yeah I see what you mean. If you can figure out wording that satisfies you, please add a vote for that.

>27 RidgewayGirl: Can someone provide a 12-month sample of what those sort of themes would look like?

Would it be like the examples in >16 sturlington: ? So something like:

Women
Diversity
Classic
Time Travel
Heroic
Military
Epic

Without much indication that it was about SF/F at all?

>34 RidgewayGirl: Will do, if I can think of something.

>32 _Zoe_: I like that category list. I think I could find something I want to read for most of those categories.

Remember that the challenges are what you yourself make them. You are the one that ultimately decides if the book you're reading fits a specific month's theme.
I read Saga recently and while it could easily fit into a number of the themes we've been bandying about (diversity, dystopia..) I could argue that because one of the main characters was in the army, it works with the military theme and I can read that in the military theme month (if we decide to have one). It's all up to you!

I quite like the lists in >32 _Zoe_: and >35 _Zoe_:. I'm sure, with some tinkering, we'll have a great list of themes.

>38 PawsforThought: You are the one that ultimately decides if the book you're reading fits a specific month's theme.

I completely agree. It seems like there are several of us, though, who rarely read this genre and we're going to need some guidance from those of you who are more familiar with the genre to make that decision for ourselves.

Those who have done a lot of SFF reading in the last few years will have to make LOTS of suggestions!

>38 PawsforThought: I'm right with you there, I read Saga this year and put it in the war fiction too.

>35 _Zoe_: I could choose something like A Game of thrones (epic/high fantasy) or Beowulf (epic poetry) for epic, for example

>39 cbl_tn: I'm sure there will be plenty of examples popping up, not the least once the wiki is up. And there are a lot of SFF readers so I'm sure people can come up with ideas before that, too.

The Bingo is using a lot of lists to help people find books that could work for them. That might be a good idea here, too.
These are a few of the lists that could be of help:
Science fiction
http://www.librarything.com/list/1/all/Best-Science-Fiction-Novels
Fantasy
http://www.librarything.com/list/3/all/Best-Fantasy-Novels
Urban fantasy
http://www.librarything.com/list/187/all/Best-Urban-Fantasy
Fairy tale re-telling
http://www.librarything.com/list/169/all/Favorite-Fairy-Tale-Retellings
Time travel
http://www.librarything.com/list/9/all/Best-Time-Travel-Novels
Post-apocalypse
http://www.librarything.com/list/27/all/Best-Post-Apocalyptic-Stories
Comic fantasy
http://www.librarything.com/list/9591/all/Best-Comic-Fantasy

>41 electrice: Well, I didn't but I just wanted to point out that things can fit a lot of different themes if you want them to fit. And think a little outside the box, maybe.

>32 _Zoe_: Zoe, your categories work fine for fantasy, but not so much for science fiction.

Based on what others have suggested, here's my stab at a list of 12 monthly themes:

1. Time travel, alternate history
2. Apocalpytic, post-apocalyptic, dystopian lit
3. Women in SFF (authors and/or protagonists)
4. Sci-fi classics (Verne, Wells, Lovecraft, Asimov)
5. Fantasy classics (Tolkien comes to mind, but I know there are others! Or we could just call it epic fantasy...)
6. Fairy tales, mythology, folklore
7. Paranormal (vampires, werewolves, ghosts, weird fiction -- I imagine most gothic and horror could go here)
8. Punks (steampunk and cyberpunk are the only two I've heard of, but apparently there are others?)
9. Historical SFF
10. Space opera, anything set in outer space or on another planet
11. Heroes/superheroes (can also include quests and the like)
12. Diverse authors/characters (racial, LGBTQ, etc.)

I tried to condense them as much as I could. For example, I know post-apocalyptic and dystopian aren't always the same thing, but there's a huge amount of overlap between them, so I feel like they could go in the same month.

>44 christina_reads: I would love to read pretty much all of these categories.

I agree about putting apocalyptic in with dystopian, as the two are often grouped together and share similar themes. I would also add utopian, for those who don't want to read anything too depressing. I can think of a couple of good Le Guin books that are utopian, and I'm sure there are others.

The only quibble I might make is to group all the classics into one month, mainly because I don't really want to read any fantasy classics. I'd also expand it to all SFF classics so you could conceivably read classic horror like Poe, Stoker, and Shelley that same month.

That would also leave a month open for magic and magical realism, which I don't think we should leave out.

Punks: yes, there is biopunk (Lilith's Brood, The Windup Girl) and nanopunk (Queen City Jazz; The Diamond Age). There might be more.

I am happy to suggest books for most of these categories.

>43 majkia: I think that's because there are more likely to be general fantasy elements than general sci-fi elements in books that aren't primarily fantasy/science-fiction. There are certain subgenres of science fiction that seem to lend themselves more easily to crossovers with literary fiction (dystopia, post-apocalyptic, some time travel).

>44 christina_reads: I'd definitely be happy with that list! My only concern is that it leaves off some of the speculative fiction categories that are more distant from standard science fiction and fantasy (e.g., Gothic or Magical Realism). I wouldn't personally be too upset about that since I'm happy to read SFF in general, but others might want to cast the net a bit wider?

>46 _Zoe_: I think we should definitely have magic/magical realism. Gothic could fall under classic if that's expanded to all SFF.

Space opera might be expanded to include anything set on an imaginary planet or world, which would take in a lot of fantasy, and would also include parallel worlds, an interesting sub-genre.

>45 sturlington: I sort of like having multiple classics categories because there are so many that I want to read, but I can definitely see your point about combining all SFF together. What if we did two SFF classics categories distinguished by year instead, like pre- and post-1920? (to choose a year pretty much at random....)

I'm good with that list. Works for me. I'll be reading almost exclusively classics throughout the year but the classics can fit into more genres than just "classics".

If you need to combine categories to make room for one more (speculative) you could combine "fairy tales, etc." with "supernatural" as there are often supernatural elements in fairy tales (and fairies are supernatural "creatures").

>49 PawsforThought: That's true, I guess there isn't really a need for multiple classics categories. And then if we combined those, we wouldn't need to get rid of another to accommodate something like Magical Realism :)

Also, I realized I don't actually know what's meant by "historical SFF". Is that like classics, or modern books with a historical setting, or both?

I've already started thinking of books for the different categories :D

>50 _Zoe_: To my mind, historical would refer to SFF with a historical setting, like Eifelheim or The Golem and the Jinni.

A subgenre that I don't think has been mentioned is gaslamp fantasy - it's similar to steampunk but with more focus on magic and less focus on gadgets. I've started THIS LIST of books that can be categorized as gaslamp.

It might be interesting to do a month with gaslamp (for fantasy) and steampunk (for sci-fi). The two subgenres are quite related, unlike steampunk and the other punks like cyberpunk with is much more futuristic.

Also, World Without End has a whole page of subgenres with links to works in their database. Looking at that might give people some ideas for the SFFFFCat.

>52 Her_Royal_Orangeness: Thank you for that link! That's extremely helpful.

I'm definitely fine with combining classic SFF and classic fantasy into one category, which would leave an opening for magical realism.

>32 _Zoe_: I don't read a lot of SFFF and I like Zoe's suggestions for categories.

(There is an earlier post I might go back to after I'm caught up on the thread, and ask what some of them are!!!!)

>44 christina_reads: This is probably a good list, but I know there would be a couple I would struggle with (epic/classics and punk)!

>8 sturlington: Ok, a few from this list I'd like a definition of. Thanks!

- soft/social science fiction
- tech noir
- weird fiction

What if we look at things a bit differently than the genres and subgenres publishers like. How about dividing things up based on plot.

Some ideas:

1. Quests: this will fit all the major genres. looking for lost worlds, lost magical rings, etc.
2. Conflict: interstellar or more personal, or orcs vs hobbits.
3. First contact: be it the girl discovering fairies in her back yard, or Earth being visited by snake people
4. Mysteries: private detectives (Jim Butcher et al) or archaeologists digging up unknown civilizations on Earth or on Mars or wherever.
5. Who Am I really? The hidden heir to the throne, the former hero hiding out at the Mos Eisley cantina.
6. Romance - more or less of it as you like, but with a couple at the center of the story.
7. Kick-a&& heroines
8. Intellectual/ wise guys/gals who set out to fix the world.

Anyway, just a thought.

>57 LibraryCin: "New Weird" as a subgenre is basically a mash-up of fantasy, science, and horror. It's dark and fantastical with gadgets/technology/etc. It's unclassifiable and.....weird. Two of the biggest names in the field are Jeff Vandermeer and China Mieville. From a classic standpoint, some authors like Lovecraft were doing this sort of thing years ago.

>44 christina_reads: - "Space opera" is a very specific type of space sci-fi. I'd word that as simply "takes place in outer space" and let people decide what subset of space sci-fi they want to read.

>58 majkia: - LOVE the plot idea! Subgenres get so complicated (as evidenced by my above comments).

>58 majkia: I personally feel like it wouldn't foster as much discussion to read very different types of books that just happen to share a similar plot element, but I'll go with it if that's what other people want :)

>59 Her_Royal_Orangeness: Thank you for the explanation for "weird fiction"

I am excited for this Cat. I have been reading some sci-fi and fantasy for a few years now but still consider myself a newbie. I like the list in >44 christina_reads: that Christina provided with the add-on of combining the classics to leave a month for magical realism. I am not locked into anything in particular though and look to the experts to help guide this one along.

Ok, how about something like:

1. Time travel, Alternate history
2. Apocalyptic/Post-apocalyptic, Utopian/Dystopian
3. Classics
4. Fairy tale, Fable, Folklore
5. Genre-bender (mystery could go there ...)
6. Punk (steam, cyber, diesel, nano, bio)/Gaslight
7. Women (author/character)
8. Diversity (LGBTQ/minority)
9. Magical Realism/Fantastique
10. Gothic/Horror, Supernatural
11. Heroes/Superheroes (epic/high, e.g. Quest, and/or comics could go there ...)
12. Myths, Legends or First Contact (Lost Worlds could go there ...)

Love the discussion !

This type of book is not my usual read but I am keen to give this challenge a go next year. The more you all discuss the ideas the better it sounds. I've got a positive vibe from this concept. As I am not an expert in this genre I am just going to lurk and vote when appropriate but I will definitely participate starting January.

>63 electrice: Looks good to me.

>63 electrice: I like this list but I would suggest making "steampunk and gaslamp fantasy" one category, and then adding "cyberpunk/nanopunk/biopunk and new weird" as another category (as both are futuristic - punks for sci-fi and new weird for fantasy). And to make room for that, I would move "women authors/characters" to the diversity month.

*eta - New Weird is not "technically" futuristic (because a reader can find classic sci-fi/fanasy that fits) but as a subgenre it has really exploded in the last decade or so and is kinna the "new thing" in sff.

But I still like the plot idea.

I find myself getting rather excited by this CAT. I know very little about any of the genres being suggested, (and didn't vote for this CAT originally) but think this will definitely stretch my reading. I'm hoping there will be lots of lists on the wiki (like the one in post 52) to help me out picking books. I think I can probably use one or two for my BINGO also. Now to wait....

impatiently tapping foot...

It doesn't matter much to me if we go by subgenres of plots, but I think it's be easier for those actively looking for books to fit for each month if we use the subgenres. There are tons on lists out there with books in different genres. I think it'll be tricker to hunt down a specific plot. Some will work well, but not all of them.

It's nice to see a few people who didn't vote for this CAT still being optimistic and excited about taking part. :)

More about "Weird" fiction....I found this quote on the amazon page for the anthology The Weird: A Compendium of Strange and Dark Stories edited by Jeff Vandermeer and Ann Vandermeer.

"In the 1990s, a new kind of genre story seemed to have sprung up. It was frightening but seldom gory; either not quite as realistic as or less fantastic than it initially promised; very short on monsters no matter how monstrous it got; eerie but just about never ghostly (at least, no ghosts horned into the act); creepy even when it decided to be funny; and un-, far more than super-, natural. The VanderMeers, wife and husband editors of this doorstopper, were in the front rank of those fostering what Jeff explains in the introduction was actually a revival of a fictional manner with roots in the early twentieth century and grand masters who spent their lives ignored and unpublished..." (Booklist)

>57 LibraryCin: Tech noir is noir with a futuristic setting. Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? (or Blade Runner, if you only know the movie) is a prime example. It's a pretty narrow genre, but it would fit in well with a futuristic month, such as the punks or new weird, or it could definitely be a genre bender.

Social science fiction is less concerned with space travel and technology than with human behavior and society. It explores fictional societies and is in that way related to dystopia/utopia. Examples are The Giver and The Left Hand of Darkness.

>68 PawsforThought: I agree with this, that the sub-genres are easier to identify. There are lots of SF/F related lists on LibraryThing, and Wikipedia also seems to do a good job of listing books.

Ok, what people think of the following categories as:

'Looking promising as categories that could be agreed on'

1. Time travel, Alternate history
2. Apocalyptic/Post-apocalyptic, Utopian/Dystopian
3. Classics
4. Fairy tale, Fable, Folklore
5. Genre-bender (mystery could go there ...)
6. Women, Diversity (LGBTQ/minority): author/character
Do we want to have separate months for women and diversity ?
7. Magical Realism, Fantastique
8. Gothic/Horror, Supernatural

'We're still defining the ones that people are the most enthusiastic about'

Myths, Legends
First Contact (Lost Worlds could go there ...)
Heroes/Superheroes (epic/high, e.g. Quest, and/or comics could go there ...)
Punk (steam, cyber, diesel, nano, bio), New weird
Steampunk, Gaslight

Of course, nothing is decided. The discussion is going-on :)

Sould we start to make 2-3 suggestions of books for the categories that are recurring in the discussion ? This will maybe help people who don't know enough about these genres to choose some categories that look promising ...

>42 PawsforThought: posted a great list of LibraryThing lists that can help identify books by sub-genre. I found a few more and am reposting them all together to help generate ideas:

These are a few of the lists that could be of help:

Science fiction
http://www.librarything.com/list/1/all/Best-Science-Fiction-Novels

Fantasy
http://www.librarything.com/list/3/all/Best-Fantasy-Novels

Urban fantasy
http://www.librarything.com/list/187/all/Best-Urban-Fantasy

Fairy tale re-telling
http://www.librarything.com/list/169/all/Favorite-Fairy-Tale-Retellings

Time travel
http://www.librarything.com/list/9/all/Best-Time-Travel-Novels

Post-apocalypse
http://www.librarything.com/list/27/all/Best-Post-Apocalyptic-Stories

Comic fantasy
http://www.librarything.com/list/9591/all/Best-Comic-Fantasy

Dystopias
http://www.librarything.com/list/14/all/Best-Dystopias

Weird and weirder fiction
http://www.librarything.com/list/267/all/Weird-and-Weirder-Fiction

Steampunk books
http://www.librarything.com/list/411/all/Favourite-Steampunk-Books

Cyberpunk
http://www.librarything.com/list/9586/all/Best-Cyberpunk

Genre benders
http://www.librarything.com/list/9865/all/Genre-Benders

Diversity in Fantasy and Science fiction
http://www.librarything.com/list/9539/all/Diversity-in-Fantasy-and-Science-Ficti...

Classics of science fiction
http://www.librarything.com/list/595/all/Classics-of-Science-Fiction

Classic fantasy
http://www.librarything.com/list/668/all/Classic-Fantasy

Gaslamp fantasy
http://www.librarything.com/list/9879/all/Gaslamp-Fantasy

>72 sturlington: Thanks, that's great :)

And here's a few more I just found:

Alternate history: http://www.librarything.com/list/72/all/Best-Alternate-History

Magic realism: http://www.librarything.com/list/897/all/Magic-Realism

Gothic fiction: http://www.librarything.com/list/362/all/Best-Gothic-Fiction

>72 sturlington: & >74 sturlington: Great! (You're so handy with the lists!)

I suggested the plot list idea because so many folks were so put off by the subgenres. Or at least feeling at sea about them. And I admit the subgenres are weirdly named - the whole punk list, for instance. I think once people read a book or two and see what the subgenres encompass they'll feel they understand it better.

Also, for those deeply confused, I'm deeply confused about sff quite often, lol. I'll read a book and then sit at the LT screen trying to figure out what the heck I'd classify a book as: sci fi? fantasy? something else?

There's a great deal of crossover, and the genres, never mind the subgenres have extremely porous boundaries. And that's what I love most about SFF. You can start a book thinking it's one thing, and as you go along, you're going, wait!

Like MCCaffrey insisting Pern is sci fi. Is it? Maybe! Who knows! Still... dragons!

ETA to fix dumb mistake.

Pern is McCaffrey, not Lackey. There are certainly scifi elements to the Pern books, and the basic premise is sci-fi.

Do telepathic dragons who teleport make it fantasy? The quasi-medieval society? Or would there need to be something more magical?

oh oops (shuffles feet).

>71 electrice: I like having women and diversity separate because I feel like women is a pretty easy category that will otherwise just take over the rest of the diversity, but I'm fine with it either way. It I had to choose a category from your top list to eliminate to make room, I'd go with genre-bender, because the nice thing about those is that they should be able to fit in plenty of other places ;)

YEAH! Thanks so much for the lists because after looking at them I'm feeling much better about this CAT. I would like to make a suggestion though, since there are people (including myself) who are commenting that they are not sure about a particular sub-genre, maybe it would be helpful if we had a list and a definition(?) of what each sub-genre entails. I know that it would definitely help me.

For instance I have no idea what is involved for Apocalpytic, post-apocalyptic, dystopian lit or Punks (steampunk and cyberpunk).

Apocalyptic science fiction is a sub-genre is concerned with the end of civilization, through nuclear war, plague, or some other general disaster.

Post-apocalyptic science fiction is set in a world or civilization after such a disaster.

Dystopian fiction is the opposite of Utopian: creation of a nightmare world.

Many overlap.

Steampunk contains alternate history-style elements of past technologies like dirigibles or mechanical computers combined with futuristic technologies like multi-function goggles, giant robots and ray guns.

Jules Verne's novels are classic examples of steampunk.

Dieselpunk is a genre that combines the aesthetics of diesel-based technology influenced by the interwar period to the 1950s with futurist postmodern technology.

Biopunk is about biotech and how it could change the world, and could be set in any number of time eras.

#77 - MarthaJEanne:

To many people, dragons make things automatically fantasy. I don't necessarily agree.

But reading the Pern books, I get far more a fantasy vibe than a sci fi vibe. Maybe it's attitude, the way the society looks at the world, rather than anything else, if that makes sense.

Another series that is the same way is Julian May's series beginning with The Many Colored Land. Although it starts out as sci fi, it feels far more fantasy as you get past the beginning set up. Again, it's the attitude and view of the world, and how the society (or societies) attempt to find solutions or change their worlds.

Of course, everyone's MMV. But it's worldview that is the most important thing for me, in deciding if something is fantasy or sci fi.

>>79 _Zoe_: >>82 Samantha_kathy:

I don't quite understand why women/diversity would qualify as scifi or fantasy or are we talking about female characters being in the forefront (i.e. Hunger Games, Discovery of Witches) or female authors writing SFF? If it's characters, I don't see any reason why we can't have women and diversity together.

Maybe I just don't understand.

>85 cyderry: Oh, we definitely can have both together. I just know that for me, it's pretty easy to find a book written by a woman or with a female protagonist, whereas other types of diversity are more challenging. So I think that women would basically end up taking over the "women and diversity" month, and other kinds of diversity would be overlooked.

It's like "North America" in GeoCAT. Yes, that theoretically includes Canada too, but you know that 95% of the books will be set in the US.

So if other types of diversity are important to us, I think they should have their own month.

>80 cyderry: Do we have a wiki set up yet? If so, we can add some short definitions of the different categories for reference during the discussion. I lose track of what's said in the thread.

>85 cyderry: I would like to see them as separate categories, because I at least would be looking for women and diverse authors, simply because they are very much a minority for this genre (at least for science fiction).

I had an idea earlier for those who may be uncomfortable with this genre, which is to read short fiction as a taste of the different sub-genres and find out what you may like without committing a lot of time. I know a lot of genre writers publish short fiction available for reading free on the web. If I have some time, I can try to put my research hat on and track down some sources. Again, something to add to a wiki.

For instance, Lightspeed Magazine is one that I'm familiar with. I just popped over there and saw a short story by Tanarive Due: http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/herd-immunity/ . She is an African American SF/F writer and it appears this story would fit the apocalyptic sub-genre. I haven't read her yet but she is on my TBR and I hope I will get to one of her books next year.

>85 cyderry: It's both. Both female writers and women as main characters. I agree with >79 _Zoe_: and >82 Samantha_kathy: that it's better to keep women and diversity separate as I fear women would overshadow the minorities part and that'd be a great shame.

And with a little help from google I found this website which seems to have very thorough explanations of tons of sub-genres.
https://www.worldswithoutend.com/resources_sub-genres.asp

Are we ready to set up a wiki? we could put short descriptions of subgenres there, certainly. I can get a wiki started and everyone can then put up what they know. We could also list a few better known examples of each, I guess. And put up longer lists as we narrow down our CAT options.

>90 Samantha_kathy: I really wouldn't count The Lord of the Rings as apocalyptic. Apocalypses are about the end of civilization and that isn't really true about LOTR. Sure, a lot of things are ruined but that's not enough to count as apocalyptic. It is a classic, though, and definitely heroes/quest/adventure. And I'd be willing to call it supernatural, too, at least in parts.
But yes, a lot more books than you'd initially think fit into the categories.

#92: I'd call Lord of the Rings Apocalyptic. I guess it's in the eye of the reader.

I agree that women and diversity should be separate.

Are we going to vote on the different themes that have been suggested?

I would think we need to know what our twelve themes are going to be before we set up a Wiki.

Great discussion going-on.

>90 Samantha_kathy: It's always exciting to find books from our own bookshelves that could fit, even more so when we find some unexpected tag-combinations :)

>91 PawsforThought: & >92 Samantha_kathy: As for LOTR, I can agree with the two arguments; that's what I love about this group, we get to see different points of view.

I'm also in favor of two categories for Women and Diversity, I fear that Diversity will be eclipsed by Women.

>89 majkia: Jean, I'm in favor of one, it appears that people need to have some kind of structure to find definitions and possibilities in order to narrow down what they would like to read next year. We could still, later on, suppress or modified the categories that don't make the cut, if needed ?

>92 Samantha_kathy: I'm not knowledgeable enough to say, I'm just saying what my own instincts tell me. But part of the idea of the CATs is that we decide for ourselves if a book fits or not. I wouldn't count it if it was me reading, but you might. And that's great.

And we could just delete the parts of the wiki that refer to sub-genres we end up not picking, right?

This discussion reminds my of my daughter's teacher last year. There was an in-class reading challenge wherein the students had to read three books in each of the ten categories. Two of the categories were "Science Fiction" and "Fantasy." When asked what the difference was, the teacher responded, "If the mouse is a character, it's science fiction. If the mouse talks, then it's fantasy!" It was a completely arbitrary distinction, and led to some really interesting discussions about Stuart Little, the Gregor the Overlander series, and The Tale of Despereaux! :-)

There's always going to be murky edges between Science Fiction, Speculative Fiction and Fantasy; but the point is not to get too hung up on specifics, and dive into a realm beyond the mundane. The sub-genres help us zero in on books that will help us explore and diversify our reading, not straight-jacket it. With that in mind, I love electrice's list (from Comment 63.) I think it's a great cross-section of what SFFF has to offer.

I'm really excited to see what the monthly topics will be! Even though I'm far from being A SFF savant, and have absolutely no clue as how to run a CAT, I just might be willing to volunteer to do so depending on how the cats all turns out! :-)

>97 Tanya-dogearedcopy: I always wondered why Flowers for Algernon was supposed to be science fiction. Now I know!

I don't consider dystopias like 1984 and The Handmaid's Tale to be science fiction. Does that make me right and 99.9% of everyone else wrong? Nah. It's just the way I personally classify my books.

If the CATs inspire you to read that book you've always meant to, or clear something off your TBR, or push yourself outside your comfort zone, I think they've done the job. It doesn't matter if your definition of science fiction or fantasy or speculative fiction is in strict accordance with everyone else's. As many people have mentioned, these categories are all very porous anyway.

>98 sturlington: I would'nt classify them (well, I haven't read The Handmaid's Tale so can't really speak about that one) as SF either. I'd classify them as dystopias and separate that genre quite a bit from SF. But, like you said, a lot of people would disagree with that.

ok, I'll start a wiki and then we can all add in genres and subgenres. We can delete what doesn't get used, but that way we'll have one place to see all the suggestions. How's that?

>100 majkia: Great!

Could we then get the wiki lick at the top of the thread? Make it easy to find?

Here is the wiki: We need to transfer a lot of the stuff from this thread to it:

http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/2015_SpecCAT#2015_SFF.2FSpec.2FElf_in...

>103 majkia: Thanks !

If anyone can't figure out how to do that, let me know and i'll copy stuff to it.

I'd like to see all those lists above on it under external lists, and then all our ideas in some sort of logical division. I'm open to anyone changing anything so don't hesitate to alter this as needed.

>103 majkia: Horror? Where did that come from? Isn't it meant to be science fiction, fantasy and speculative fiction? I know there are some overlaps with horror but this CAT isn't supposed to be a horror read. There's a HorrorKIT going on for that.

well, I knew there was a third, lol. Horror is sort of a subgenre in all of them. I'll fix that.

ETA: fixed

I think there was always an idea that certain horror subgenres could be included in this CAT, but the third main grouping that people talked about was "speculative fiction" (basically, everything that doesn't fit neatly in science fiction or fantasy).

>108 _Zoe_: Yeah, I think it was for books from author like Lovecraft, King or for me, books with zombies and vampires are going straight to the horror categories :)

One category proposed was Horror/Gothic, Supernatural ...

I'm participating in the HorrorKIT but I think that people who are not, we'll maybe want to have a month dedicated to this subgenre. I think that Horror is a part of Speculative fiction ?

I was just referring to the wiki page where the three major categories were fantasy, science fiction and horror. I have no problem with people wanting to read books that are horror/gothic if that's what they want to do.

>111 Samantha_kathy: Something like Warm Bodies would fit too.

Yeah, I don't want a separate horror category, but I definitely think most horror books would fit within a supernatural/paranormal theme.

>90 Samantha_kathy: The His Dark Materials trilogy is actually gaslamp fantasy not steampunk according to the Recommended Reading List in Queen Victoria's Book of Spells. I agree with that classification as it's definitely much more fantasy than sci-fi.

The idea of combining women with diversity was mentioned first by me (I think) as a way of including Steampunk/Gaslamp to the list posted by >63 electrice: . What everyone has said about women and diversity makes sense but I'm still strongly advocating for Steampunk/Gaslamp as a category choice.

Space sci-fi seems to have been removed from the list of suggested categories? That's pretty much a "gotta be there" one for me.....that's an enormous one with loads of book possibilities.

>114 Her_Royal_Orangeness: My first thought would be just to add gaslamp in among the punks, rather than excluding some of them. There's sort of a spectrum where gaslamp is related to steampunk is related to cyberpunk etc. Would that work?

ETA: I should add that I don't have a deep familiarity with any of those categories.

>114 Her_Royal_Orangeness: I'd advocate for a "space" category too, but it might be possible to combine it with something else.

>116 Samantha_kathy: I'd say you're fairly close, but it's a bit wider than simply steam powered and Victorian.

>116 Samantha_kathy: You're basically right except the "technologically advanced societies" is pretty much only in steampunk. Gaslamp is set in the Victorian era with magic, supernatural, etc. but not any (or very few) gadgets and whatnots. If it's science-y, it's steampunk (sci-fi). If it's fantastical, it's gaslamp (fantasy).

Heaps of gaslamp fantasy books are tagged steampunk because a lot of people are not aware of gaslamp. It's a newish subgenre, though there are earlier publications that fit the definition. Worlds Without End doesn't even include gaslamp as a subgenre, and they have a pretty extensive list.

>115 _Zoe_: Gaslamp and steampunk are both set in Victorian settings. Cyberpunk etc. are all futuristic. Both steampunk and other punks have technology, gadgets, etc. but there is far more similarity between gaslamp and steampunk, imo. (So much so that people mistag gaslamp as steampunk).

Putting gaslamp and steampunk together in a month would allow people to explore the similarities and differences, and learn more about the subgenres. Plus, it balances out sci-fi and fantasy, so those who prefer to go one way or the other can do so.

The Weird Fiction list that is linked above has a lot of classic fiction - books that fit the genre before the genre had a name. I'm going to work on a New Weird Fiction list to include newer works.

>119 Her_Royal_Orangeness: Well, I personally have no objection to that (there are plenty of gaslamp/steampunk books on my TBR list), but it seems more specific/limited than most of the other categories we've been talking about.

>121 _Zoe_: Agreed. I would rather combine all the "punks" and gaslamp in one theme, because splitting it in two would create two really narrow themes, IMO. Personally I'd rather see women and diverse authors as two separate categories.

yes, we gotta have a Han Solo subgenre

>122 christina_reads: Completely agree.

Okie dokie. I won't argue with what the majority seems to think best. :)

HERE IS THE LIST of New Weird Fiction I started.

>122 christina_reads: I haven't looked at the wiki yet and I'm running late, but how about a historical category and a futuristic category. Historical would include steampunk, gaslamp, plus some others. Futuristic would include the other punks, tech noir and the like.

>117 PawsforThought: How about an other worlds month, which could include space, fantasy worlds and parallel universes?

>69 Her_Royal_Orangeness: and >70 sturlington: Thank you for additional explanations!

>127 sturlington: Maybe.

>113 christina_reads: I don't want a separate horror category, but I definitely think most horror books would fit within a supernatural/paranormal theme.

This is what I was thinking, as well.

>122 christina_reads: Agreed. I would rather combine all the "punks" and gaslamp in one theme, because splitting it in two would create two really narrow themes, IMO.

I agree with this statement.

>126 sturlington: how about a historical category and a futuristic category. Historical would include steampunk, gaslamp, plus some others. Futuristic would include the other punks, tech noir and the like.

I like this idea, as well as >127 sturlington: How about an other worlds month, which could include space, fantasy worlds and parallel universes?

I've copied most of the lists mentioned in this thread to the wiki. If I've missed any let me know.

Wiki: http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/2015_SpecCAT#2015_SFF.2FSpec.2FElf_in...

Historical would include steampunk, gaslamp, plus some others.

Like....90some% of epic fantasy that is set in some form of medieval Europe.

And other worlds? Isn't that....everything....fantasy and sci-fi?

:)

Also, I clicked over to the Classic Fantasy list. Anything pre-2000 is Classic? What?

The link to New Weird wasn't on the wiki. I added it.

>134 Her_Royal_Orangeness: Ok, just trying to broaden the suggestions a bit.

Instead of historical, we could limit it to Victorian era.

Instead of other worlds, we could limit it to actual planets, space travel and parallel worlds. That would rule out something like Game of Thrones or Tolkien.

>135 sturlington: I like that: actual planets, space travel, and parallel worlds still allows plenty of flexibility, but wouldn't fit absolutely anything.

>135 sturlington: Broaden away. I was trying to be funny. I hope I wasn't taken otherwise.

>135 sturlington: That's a good idea. Other planets might be a better phrase than actual planets, as I'm sure there are plenty of books set on made-up planets that should go in that category (á la Star Wars' Tatooine).

>134 Her_Royal_Orangeness:/>137 Her_Royal_Orangeness: Ha! Well, there's a lot of truth to that.

>137 Her_Royal_Orangeness: Oh of course, but it was also a good point.

137> You're supposed to do a winky smiley face if you're joking, or a tongue in cheek. ;^P (I'm doing both to show that I'm kidding that you're supposed to do anything, but those are suggestions on how to be clearer when joking)

134. And other worlds? Isn't that....everything....fantasy and sci-fi? Not necessarily. Post-apocalyptic are this world in the future and urban fantasy is this world except the paranormal things are real.

Best way I've heard of for distinguishing Science Fiction and Fantasy is that science fiction could happen (scientifically possible) and fantasy couldn't. So dystopias fall under Science Fiction because they're something that could happen. Vampires coming out of the coffin or necromancers raising zombies is usually fantasy. A virus mutating people into vampires or zombies is science fiction. McCaffrey says it's possible that there's another planet in the universe that has dragons so her books are science fiction (and other people look at her and say, no, that's fantasy).

>139 sturlington: Glad we're all good. The Elf in the Rocketship would be displeased if there were dissension in the group. :)

I added some a few several books to the Classic Fantasy list, ones that were published at least 50ish years ago. The most recent publication date is 1972. That, to me, is more "classic" fantasy than pre-2000.

The "evolution" of fantasy is fascinating, imo. In the earlier years, there was mostly a lot of fairy tales and children's literature. And then, all of a sudden, in 1926, there were several notable books that are still in print. (I suspect this was the influence of Lovecraft. Though he wrote horror/dark fantastical, his work showed that something different could be done and would be accepted by the public). And then after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, you can kinna see fantasy creeping into recognition and then *bam* several recognizable titles were published in 1970. From there, the whole thing exploded. The 80s and 90s were just ridiculous decades for fantasy publications.

>98 sturlington: I agree! Maybe I will find some things to read for this CAT. I belong to groups like LT to expand my reading horizons, so this will definitely do that.

I've added a link on the wiki to description of Sub-genres on the website of Worlds Without End.

HRO, I've checked the list that you've started on gaslight fantasy. There's a lot of books that I'm interested in and that I've wrongly tagged as steampunk. The explanation at the top of the list is great, thanks :)

>144 electrice:. There's a lot of books on the gaslamp fantasy list I'd still insist are steampunk. So, as usual, eye of the beholder.

>145 majkia: fair enough :)

I was looking for some of the links - might be nice if they were in the OP so we don't have to scroll thru. :-)

>147 cyderry: They're all on the wiki : http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/2015_SpecCAT#2015_SFF.2FSpec.2FElf_in...

From A Dribble of Ink. :)

It's a few years old, but this flowchart based on NPR's top 100 SFF books might help people find books for the challenge. :)

>149 majkia: Okay, that made me laugh.

>140 BookLizard: Excuse me. I am not well educated in smilies. :) Er... ;) Um, maybe... :0

And other worlds? Isn't that....everything....fantasy and sci-fi? Not necessarily. Post-apocalyptic are this world in the future and urban fantasy is this world except the paranormal things are real.

So it's this world but different, thus, another world. *insert appropriate smiley here*

>145 majkia: Many of the books on the Gaslamp Fantasy list are from the Recommended Reading List in Queen Victoria's Book of Spells: An Anthology of Gaslamp Fantasy. My guess is that the editors of the book who compiled the list went with the idea, "Well, it's 40% steampunk but 60% fantasy, so we'll include this title." The boundaries between gaslamp and steampunk can get decidedly fuzzy. Personally, I prefer my gaslamp to be as far away from steampunk as possible. I am not a fan of gadgets and gizmos and whatnot and the endless discussion of them.

>148 majkia: - Ah, but the link to the wiki gets lost in this thread. Having that in the first post would be immensely helpful.

>149 majkia: - Haha! So true. I mean, for example, the whole apocalypse-dying earth-dystopia-utopia-etc. thingy can be summed up "the world ended (or is about to end) so what did they do (or what will they do) about it?"I just call it apocalyptic and have done with it. :) Some obscure subgenres though, like gaslamp and new weird, need some explaining and discussing, however.

Sooooo, are we anywhere near finalizing a list of possible topics/themes/etc. and putting them to a vote?

ETA: If we're going to include "classics" we definitely need to define that and put a date on it.

So, does that mean these https://www.librarything.com/series/The+Elemental+Masters+Series are gaslamp fantasy?

>153 MarthaJeanne: - I'm not 100% certain about the entire series but I do remember reading somewhere that The Wizard of London (#5) would qualify. (I'll add that to the List. Thanks!) Also, if I recall correctly it's not a series that needs to be read in order, as the books do not tell a continuing story.

It helps to read the earlier ones before the later ones, because the later ones assume that you know the basic ideas.

>152 Her_Royal_Orangeness: Dating classics...

I guess it depends on how classic you want to get. I would propose an end date of 1970, which would encompass the Golden Age and New Wave science fiction periods.

This list has books from the 1990s, so I guess the definition of "classic" can get pretty liberal: https://www.worldswithoutend.com/lists_classics_of_sf.asp

My basic understanding and thought process about reading the classics is this....

Sci-fi started to gain popularity in the 60s (I think) and fantasy about a decade later. And then both kinna exploded into the mainstream in the 80s and have grown exponentially in popularity since then.

So, what was it like before it was so popular? What was happening in the genre that led it to become what it was? How and why were the classics different than what is being published currently? Do you, as a reader, prefer the classics or more modern works? What makes one more appealing than the other?

If we make the cut-off date for Classics too recent, then I think readers really miss out on an opportunity to discover, in some tiny way, the evolution of the genre.

I almost agree with the cut-off of 1970, but perhaps extending it to the end of that decade and making it 1979.

I agree, that's what would be interesting about reading the classics. If you include the 1970s, I think that would include most of the really significant works, and if someone is interested in horror, the 1970s is really the landmark decade for that genre as well.

For some, classic SF ended with John Campbell's death in 1971.

I've checked all the lists, and a big thank you to all who posted on the lists and provided the links. I've found books on all of them that I either would like to read or already have on my shelves. I can hardly wait till January!

"So it's this world but different, thus, another world."

Erm, wouldn't that include every piece of fiction ever written? It's fiction, therefore "different" from the real world.

>161 .Monkey.: If all the basics law of physics, and geography, and socio-political standards are the same as how we currently know and experience them (or how they were known and experienced in the past), it's not another world. It's this world but with imaginary people doing things. Fiction rather than sff.

Or...something.

I confess I've never considered the definition of "other world" prior to this discussion. :)

I'm fascinated by all the discussion here, and looking forward to January and all that's going to go along with this challenge...in any case, I just wanted to stop in and announce myself as a lurker who hasn't had much time to participate in the discussion, but I did at least vote!

Are we anywhere near finalizing a list of possible topics/themes/etc. and putting them to a vote? Or are we waiting until closer to the start of the new year?

Wednesday I should have the current votes counted and new things up for decisions.

Today I created a list for my special interest, Speculative Fiction by Women and People of Color. It is here: http://www.librarything.com/list/9909/all/Recommended-Speculative-Fiction-by-Wom... and I added it to the wiki.

Please feel free to add your recommendations, although I would prefer adult fiction only.

I also found a list for Slipstream fiction, another special interest of mine, which I added to the wiki: http://www.librarything.com/list/260/all/Best-Slipstream-Fiction

>166 sturlington: Great list! I added the two other Marie Brennan books inte Natural History of Dragons series.

>167 PawsforThought: Thanks, feel free to add others. That looks like a good series.

>168 sturlington: I haven't read them myself but I've heard raving reviews so I'm hoping to get to them in this lifetime.

>166 sturlington: - I added some women authors to your list. Some (probably most) of my favorite sff books are written by women.

One of this year's challenges on Worlds Without End is Speculative Fiction by Authors of Color . You might want to take a look at the titles the participants have chosen to get some reading ideas.

Also, there's a project in the works over there on Worlds Without End to put together a list of "authors of ethnicity" (or some such wording) so you'll want to be on the lookout for that. It could be awhile though....it's an all-volunteer site and things move slowly.

>170 Her_Royal_Orangeness: Thanks for all the suggestions!

Moving on, the votes indicate that we need twelve themes that work for all three genres, ones that can appeal to people who don't normally read the genres.

We've got several great topics suggested. Could you now formally introduce the ones you like best and let's see how many ideas we have?