SFFFCAT -- General Thread, part two

@RidgewayGirl wrote:

Moving on, the votes indicate that we need twelve themes that work for all three genres, ones that can appeal to people who don't normally read the genres.

We've got several great topics suggested. Could you now formally introduce the ones you like best and let's see how many ideas we have?

1. Gaslamp & Steampunk - perhaps broadened to fantasy & sf in an historical setting
2. End of the World (apocalyptic, dystopia, near future, etc.)
3. Time Travel & Alt History
4. Outer Space, Aliens, and Other Worlds
5. Classic (pre-1980) Fantasy & SF
6. Other Punks (cyber, etc.) & New Weird
7. Creatures & Critters (vampires, zombies, werewolves, monsters, mutants, dragons, unicorns, anthropomorphic animals, etc.)
8. Slipstream, interstitial, genre bender, magical realism, etc.
9. Myths, fairy tales, mythic fiction, etc.
10. Girl Power (female authors, strong female lead characters, etc.)
11. Heroes/Heroines, Quests, etc.
12. Diversity & Translations

Edited to update my list.

HRO: I think Samantha-kathy (who I always want to call Samantha-kitty for some reason) seems to have managed to find a way to make Outer Space and Aliens combine with something that will work for Fantasy and Fantastic Fic.

1. Gaslamp and the Punks
2. Time Travel, Alt History
3 Classic (pre-1980 is good)
4. Fractured/Retold Fairy Tales and myths as well as straight myths and fairy tales
5. Genre-benders
6. Space Opera, Aliens, First Contact, Other Worlds, Other Dimensions
7. Critters (which could include aliens as far as I'm concerned - vamps, weres, monsters, talking dogs and cats the whole nine yards)
8. Quests, Puzzles, other world archaeology/anthropology
9. Scientists, mad or otherwise
10. Translated works
11. Strong Female characters or female authors, or societies based on other than 'normal' principles
12. Gothic/Atmospheric

Here are my top 12, although I'd probably be happy with any of the options that have been suggested thus far:

1. Girl power -- women authors and protagonists

2. Diversity -- I see this category as for underrepresented authors and characters: LGBTQ; ethnic minorities; works not written originally in English

3. Genre-benders, slipstream, and magical realism -- any books that blur or merge genres

4. End of the world as we know it -- dystopias, utopias, apocalypse, post-apocalypse

5. Gothic and ghosts

6. Other worlds than these -- parallel worlds, alternate realities, off-planet, we're not in Kansas anymore

7. Time travel and alternate history

8. Critters -- monsters, aliens, vampires, werewolves, dragons, etc.

9. Classic -- pre-1980 science fiction, fantasy and horror

10. Myth and Religion -- retold myths and fairy tales, folklore, legends, mythical creatures or themes, religious SF

11. Historical -- science fiction, fantasy, and horror with a historical setting, including gaslamp and steampunk (possibly excluding time travel/alt history?)

12. Punks and Weird -- cyberpunk, nanopunk, biopunk, et al + new weird; could possibly expand to near-future

>6 sturlington: I like those categories.

I am liking all the themes that have been mentioned, I think the biggest problem is going to be narrowing our choices down to 12!

I am not very well versed in this genre, but from previous discussions these would be my choices of themes:

1. Classic (Pre-1980)
2. End of the World (Apocalyptic, Dystopian, Post-Apocalyptic)
3. Creatures (Vampires, Zombies, Dragons & Unicorns)
4. Gaslight & Steampunk
5. Girl Power
6. Time Travel, Alternate History
7. Myths, Fairytales, Folklore & Religion
8. Heroes/Superheroes (Sword & Sandal, Quests & Sagas)
9. Genre-benders & Magical Realism
10. Diversity
11. Urban Fantasy
12. Other Worlds

Just to chime in - I've been lurking here and the other CATs. I believe there might be others like me who are willing to be challenged by whatever the organizers decide on. Rally on! We'll be with you come 2015.

It looks like we're mostly all on the same page (pun definitely intended) which is a million kinds of awesome!

I definitely like "Outer Space, Aliens, First Contact & Other Worlds" and critters instead of creatures is perfect. I also really like Heroes & Quests since I have a mammoth pile of epic fantasy I plan/hope to read. And I'm glad we've included translated with diversity.

I'm very excited to see the final list we come up with!

>9 mamzel:.... Ditto!

And, on a side note, when I read Her Royal Orangeness' note about not knowing how to include aliens/outer space with fantasy, it occurred to me that that month/theme could be a point in particular where folks could bring in nonfiction if desired,...there are certainly plenty of nonfiction accounts and theoretical books out there related to both...

I started a list of SFF in Translation . Please add more!

>12 Her_Royal_Orangeness:, I just added The Lord of All Things and The Carpet Makers by Andreas Eschbach...I recently discovered him through the first, and immediately ordered the second. I'm glad your post reminded me of him! (And I hope more and more folks discover him...) For those making lists, I think he'd qualify for genre-benders too, at least with that first one I noted.

I need to check back again (probably on the weekend) to decide which themes I like, but I also wanted to post something now to stay better in the loop. :-)

Well, I'm, as you all, happy with the suggestions made so far. I'll put up my own on Tuesday at the latest. I'm going to check the list for SFF and see if i can add some titles.

>11 whitewavedarling: I'll be happy to read some non-fiction for this one ...

There are some excellent suggestions here. Are there any new suggestions? Don't worry if your idea isn't fully formed or you don't think it will be chosen. Let's allow a good week for coming up with themes -- we have plenty of time. We're in the home stretch! If you've already weighed in and think of something new, go ahead and suggest it.

So what would books like The Lies of Locke Lamora or books by China Mieville fall under? I'm looking at my own TBR for books that might possibly fit.

>16 RidgewayGirl: I'm thinking The Lies of Locke Lamora in fantasy with an historical setting and China Mieville in New Weird ?

Thanks, electrice.

>9 mamzel: Me too. I have nothing substantial to add so I haven't posted but I'm really looking forward to picking 2015 books for this CAT. All topic suggestions are great.

>13 whitewavedarling: The books by Andreas Eschbach sound great! I'm definitely adding them to the Wish List.

>16 RidgewayGirl: As electrice said, China Mieville is definitely New Weird. He and Jeff Vandermeer are the two big names in New Weird.

Well, then, I'll definitely be voting for that Punks and New Weird theme!

Some of Miéville could also go under Other worlds.

Embassytown is all about alien contact and communications, so it might fit in a lot of categories

New Weird - yes!!

The suggestions are all great, but the trouble with SF is that so many books can come under so many different sub-genre's at the same time and it will depend on how strictly defined the sub-genre is. Or everyone gets to decide for themselves where the book fits. For example: sometime back someone called 'Boneshaker' gas-lamp where I would call it strictly steampunk.

Steampunk unlike some of the other 'punks' has t/should take place during the time frame of Queen Victoria's reign. It doesn't necessarily have to be in England, but it should fall during that time period. It gets its name 'steampunk' because it is filled with futuristic inventions, machines and weapons that are steam-powered. The Boneshaker saga and the Weird West series are steampunk American style.

I included Boneshaker on the Gaslamp Fantasy list because it was included in the Recommended Reading list in Queen Victoria's Book of Spells: An Anthology of Gaslamp Fantasy. I do not know what the criteria was for the books chosen for inclusion in that list. Gaslamp fantasy does not exclude gadgets and gizmos and whatnots. It is more about how much focus is placed on the technology and whether the plot employs more fantasy tropes than sci-fi ones.

However, if we put gaslamp and steampunk together as a theme, it will not be necessary to determine which category a book belongs to. Select a book, read it, and call it what you will because it will qualify for that month. In fact, part of what would make the discussion interesting is the study of what makes a book gaslamp versus steampunk, as determined by each participant as they read their book of choice.

>25 mysterymax: Of course, Boneshaker would also fall under Alternative History, Critters (zombies), and Girl Power. I think there will be a lot of cross-overs between the different sub-genres, but was also true for mysteries this year. Also, if you take a book bullet, you may be able to fit it in a different month later in the year.

>25 mysterymax: That's true for a lot of CATs, though. Like sturlington mentioned, there is a lot of overlap in the MysteryCAT. Not to mention the AlphaCAT last year (which is a different story, but still). It's very difficult to get away from, and I don't think we'd want to. Much better if a book can fit into several categories so that people have options of when to read it than to have such strict rules about what book fits where that people opt out of taking part because they can't read a certain book in the month that it "has to be in".

Oh, I totally agree with all that, (in fact, that was what I was saying - or trying to anyway - I was just thinking that there was so much discussion about the subgenre's and really when you are talking about sci-fi and mysteries there is a lot of cross-over.

I think a lot of the potential crossover we're seeing is because we're talking about doing themes as well as subgenres. As an example - The Wall by Marlen Haushofer counts for End of the World, classic, translated, and female author. Of all of those, only End of the World (post-apocalyptic) is a subgenre.

Ok, I'm not someone who reads a lot of scifi/fantasy (but a little), I skimmed through part one of this discussion and picked out the suggestions that appeal most to me:

- dystopia
- fairy tales/fables/folklore
- ghost stories
- myths/legends
- supernatural/paranormal
- time travel
- urban fantasy

Here are my top 12:

Classics (Science Fiction, Fantasy)
Diversity (SFF in translation, LGBTQ, ethnic ...)
Women (character, author)
Magical Realism, Slipstream
Weird, Genre-Benders
Mythic fiction (Myths, Legends), Fairy tales, Fables, Folklore (also retelling)
Heroes (epic/high fantasy), Superheroes (comics)
Gaslamp/Steampunk
Creatures & Critters
First Contact (World, Race), Outer Space
Dystopia/Utopia, Apocalyptic/Post-apocalyptic
Alternate History, Time Travel

Here's the current tally (as best as I can figure it at 5 a.m.). This is just for curiosity's sake and is no way any kind of any sort of official thing. :)

Time Travel & Alt History - 7
Myths, fairy tales, mythic fiction, etc. - 7
Outer Space, Aliens, First Contact, Other Worlds, Other Dimensions - 6
Classic (pre-1980) Fantasy & SF - 6
Creatures & Critters - 6
Slipstream, interstitial, genre bender, magical realism, etc. - 6
…………Magical realism (alone, not combined with genre bender etc.) - 1
Girl Power (female authors, strong female lead characters, etc.) - 6
Diversity & Translations - 6
End of the World - 5
Gothic, Ghosts, Atmospheric, Supernatural/Paranormal, etc. - 5
Heroes/Heroines, Superheroes, Quests, etc. - 4
Urban Fantasy - 2
Quests, Puzzles, Other World Archaeology/Anthropology - 1
Scientists, mad or otherwise - 1

And the categories where we seem to be the most divided about how to combine/label:

Gaslamp & Steampunk - 4
SF, Fantasy, and Horror with Historical Setting - 1
Gaslamp & Punks - 1
Other Punks (cyber, etc.) & New Weird - 2

Thanks, HRO, that's really helpful. So, if you have a new category to suggest, please do.

Could we discuss and work out wordings and divisions for the group of punks/weirds/lamps/historicals? It will make moving forward easier if we are all clear on these are categorized and divided. I know that there will be several definitions, that will often conflict and spirited defenses of all possible permutations. Can we work toward figuring out what to call the theme(s) now, so as to avoid backtracking and confusion later?

There seems to be a a lot here. Could we come up with two themes to incorporate all of them? Or do we need more? Or can it all be covered with one theme?

My thoughts on gaslamp, steampunk, other punks, new weird....

I'm ok with a category called SF, Fantasy, and Horror with Historical Setting (as someone called it) because that includes gaslamp & steampunk but people aren't limited to only the 19th century if their interests lie elsewhere.

I do not like combining other punks with gaslamp and steampunk because other punks are futuristic and gaslamp & steampunk are historical. There's no same/same going on there.

I think punks work better with new weird, mostly because they are both futuristic, but also "just because" - I can't explain it but my brain thinks of them together. :)

My thoughts on magical realism....

I put magical realism with genre bender/interstitial/slipstream because it's all kinna "almost this genre, but not quite." Like, interstitial could be "almost sci-fi but not quite because it's more literary then genre in style" and magical realism could be "almost mainstream fiction but not quite because there's this sprinkling of the fantastical." I could be completely wrong but that's how I view it.

I thought a lot of the point was to combine futuristic/historic in these categories, though, to give people a choice. Although I'd actually be happy to go back to slightly more precise categories: I'd take "Supernatural" instead of the more general "Creatures", "Outer Space and First Contact" without the "Other Worlds", etc. I think it's okay to have somewhat specific categories as long as they don't force someone to read in a single particular subgenre (e.g., "Supernatural" could include horror or paranormal romance).

#36: I agree on gaslamp and steampunk combined with historical rather than the other punks and new weird which are more futuristic.

I'm not a fan of magical realism so I've no real thoughts on where it should go.

Supernatural is a pretty broad category...

How about Space and first Contact?

I really don't know enough about the various genres of Sci-Fi and Fantasy to have a strong opinion on how to combine some of these, I am pretty sure that I am going to be pleased no matter how it gets put together.

I'm with Judy. I know next to nothing about how these do or don't go together, but I'm looking forward to this challenge. And to think I originally thought I probably wouldn't even do it!

If we create a theme called "SF, Fantasy, and Horror with Historical Setting" (which includes gaslamp & steampunk) and do not separate magical realism to its own theme, these would be the Top Twelve categories.

1. Time Travel & Alt History - 7
2. Myths, fairy tales, mythic fiction, etc. - 7
3. Slipstream, interstitial, genre bender, magical realism, etc. - 7
4. Outer Space, Aliens, First Contact, Other Worlds, Other Dimensions - 6
5. Classic (pre-1980) Fantasy & SF - 6
6. Creatures & Critters - 6
7. Girl Power (female authors, strong female lead characters, etc.) - 6
8. Diversity & Translations - 6
9. End of the World - 5
10. Gothic, Ghosts, Atmospheric, Supernatural/Paranormal, etc. - 5
11. SF, Fantasy, and Horror with Historical Setting - 5
12. Heroes/Heroines, Superheroes, Quests, etc. - 4

Seven of us put forward proposed lists, so we have 3 categories we all agree on and 5 categories where only one person did not select the category.

Are we planning to put the themes up for a vote so that those who didn't put forward a list will also be able to have input on what categories are ultimately chosen?

>41 Her_Royal_Orangeness: We still have more time to post our lists, right? >16 RidgewayGirl: suggested a whole week.

Yes, I'll set up a vote on all suggested themes on Sunday. If we could hash out a solution for the Punk/lamp/weird, it might avoid overlapping themes.

So a historically-themed month, which would encompass anything set in an alternate past?

And a future Punk theme, with all "punk" sub-genres, save steampunk?

New weird falling into the historical?

While magic realism is a bit of an outlier, it's probably easiest to vote on it as a single theme, and if it doesn't make the cut, we'll see if it can be reasonably folded into another theme.

Is everyone happy with HRO's summary in >41 Her_Royal_Orangeness:? The combinations of different wordings and slightly different but largely similar themes looks great to me, but please suggest alterations as we're all going to have a different interpretation. Do 1. and 11. overlap too much? Do we want to include things like cyberpunk, etc, at all? What should that theme be called? Do we want diversity put together with global SFFF? How is 10. represented in Science Fiction or Fantasy?

And a note that this is a CAT for science fiction, fantasy and speculative fiction. It isn't really a horror CAT. There are plans for a HorrorKIT, I think, although there is some overlap, like with Lovecraft, but generally that's outside the scope of this challenge. I do suspect that there will be books that will fit certain themes in this CAT that will also carry the "horror" tag.

And because I might otherwise miss it, if someone has suggested a theme outside of the list in >41 Her_Royal_Orangeness:, would you please repeat it below.

I agree with Zoe, we still have time before proposing themes for voting but it's looking promising HRO :)

ETA Oops, my post was written before the response of >43 RidgewayGirl:

I think that 1 and 11 are totally different, so they should be in different themes.

I'm not one for punk if it's not steampunk but I'm fine either way.

I'm in favor of SFF translation included in diversity but I would like to keep women apart.

I'm doing the HorrorKIT so I'm not too invested on the result for 10.

I would prefer that Magical realism be separated from Weird but HRO reasoning for this one seems fine to me.

Yes, there is still lots of time. The 28th is a whole week away. Maybe we could also come up with clear and clever theme titles?

And would everyone consider volunteering to lead a month's theme? Just think it over for now as we'll ask for volunteers when our themes are chosen and scheduled into specific months. But keep it in mind; you'd need to open up a thread around the 15th of the month preceding, introducing and explaining the theme and giving a list of possible titles in all three genres. Don't worry if you're unfamiliar with a theme or with one of the genres; people will fill in any gaps and suggest books as well. When the time comes, however, it will be first come, first serve.

Well, I'll rush and come up with a list just in case. These are numbered for counting purposes, not for ranking:

1. Dystopian/Post-Apocalyptic
2. Classics (pre-1980)
3. Myths, legends, fairy tales, etc.
4. Women in SFF
5. Diversity
6. Time travel/alternate history
7. Outer Space and First Contact
8. Punks
9. Historical
10. Gothic
11. Magical Realism
12. Major works of SFF (not necessary pre-1980s "classics", but important/influential—e.g., books on these lists of top Science Fiction/Fantasy novels of the century)

Most of these are based on the lists from part 1 of this thread. Basically, I prefer short and sweet descriptions, even if they don't encompass quite as many possibilities.

>43 RidgewayGirl: When we discussed the CAT originally, I thought we said that horror-type themes would be included. I think horror should still fall into speculative fiction as long as it has non-real elements (e.g., vampires or ghosts would be speculative fiction).

I don't think the creation of a more focused KIT should change the CAT.

I think we need to distinguish between Time Travel/Alternate History and SFF with a Historical Setting.

In my opinion, the first would include any history that differs significantly from known history (Germany won WWII) or in which someone from the future travels to the past (Doomsday Book), while the second would have a more or less realistic historical setting but with a SFF aspect. For example, The Night Circus is set during the Victorian era (I think), but magic works, or Eifelheim is mostly set in 14th century Germany but with aliens.

Still, steampunk is a problem, because a lot of steampunk is actually alternate history, one in which steam-power was predominant rather than electrical power. I guess we could settle for a lot of crossover between these two categories, or specifically exclude time travel at least from the historical category.

Horror technically falls under the umbrella of speculative fiction, but if we don't want to have any specifically horror-focused themes, then I suggest dropping #10 and slotting in the Punks and New Weird there instead. I agree that New Weird should stay with the Punks, since those genres primarily have near future rather than historical settings.

>48 sturlington: I agree that we should distinguish Time Travel/Alternate History from general Historical.

I don't think it's a problem at all if some books can be included in two categories.

>46 _Zoe_: I think we should add Slipstream to Magical realism as they're both concerned with genre bending or introducing fantastic elements into otherwise realistic fiction. Slipstream would include authors like David Mitchell and Kazuo Ishiguro.

>47 _Zoe_: Ok. It certainly overlaps with much of the genres here. Zoe, how is gothic represented in science fiction or fantasy? Would it fall in with the steampunk/gas lamp/historical theme, or does it deserve it's own theme?

I like the "major works" category a lot. It would be a great way to learn more about the genres. I agree that it's a different animal than pre-1980 classics.

>50 sturlington: That makes sense to me. I just wasn't sure about combining it with genre-bending in general, which I understood as a combination of any two genres—but I don't know nearly enough about it to have an informed opinion.

>48 sturlington: There's going to be overlap no matter how we do this. So let's vote on both the Historical and the alternate history/time travel themes. Would it work to call it Historical/Gas Lamp/Steampunk, or is there better wording? And where does New Weird fit?

>51 RidgewayGirl: I have to admit that I don't know a lot about Gothic, which is one of my reasons for wanting to read more! The tag brings up books like Dracula, Frankenstein, and The Woman in White. I think it's a significantly different aesthetic than modern steampunk/gaslight, which seems to be mostly what people have in mind for historical. I can definitely see a case for combining them, but I think it would be nice to see if it can stand alone first (even knowing that the answer is "probably not"). I feel like I'd learn a lot more that way.

>54 RidgewayGirl: Voting on both sounds good to me. I'd just call the second one "Historical", or maybe "Historical (including gaslamp and steampunk)"; I don't think all the possible subgenres have to be explicitly stated in the name.

>53 _Zoe_: Slipstream is a bit more specific than genre-bending, but more likely to get closer to science fiction, whereas magical realism is more likely to approach fantasy. There is a list of best slipstream here: http://www.librarything.com/list/260/all/Best-Slipstream-Fiction (although in my opinion not everything on this list qualifies).

>54 RidgewayGirl: I would put New Weird with the Punks.

>55 _Zoe_: I wouldn't mind having a standalone Gothic category either. Gothic definitely has elements of fantasy in it. I also like the Major Works idea. Well, I guess I like everything for this CAT! I guess we vote and see what comes out ahead, but I'm sure I'm going to be happy no matter what.

No matter how we break up themes, there is going to be a bunch of books that overlap several themes. So I think we need to stop worrying about trying to make themes separate. It's just not gonna work, IMO.

Let's just try to have the themes defined clearly for those who aren't familiar with them, and let it go at that. Those of us who read a lot of this sort of fiction will no doubt read books that break any rules and we can maybe, instead of reviewing them, explain how and why they do, and what we think they can show about the genres.

ETA:

Here is a tagmash of gothic/fantasy:
https://www.librarything.com/tag/fantasy,+gothic

Another for gothic/science fiction:
https://www.librarything.com/tag/fantasy,+gothic

First thing you notice is how much overlap there is. I disagree with a lot of the books listed as 'science fiction' but then that's no surprise.

>57 sturlington: I think that Gothic should be included with other things so that those of us who already know we don't like Gothic can participate.

>59 MarthaJeanne: I would think that most gothic fiction would qualify as classics. Are we going to do focuses? That could be a focus for the classic category.

Let's vote on gothic as it's own thing, and fold it into something else if it doesn't get chosen. How does that sound? I would never have considered Wilkie Collins for the SFFFCAT, though!

I want to say first that I'm mostly lurking here because I don't know much about the different labels, but I know I'm going to enjoy the challenge no matter what!

That said, I have to admit that I've never considered gothic as a big part of sci-fi or fantasy. I actually learned the term while studying Jane Eyre! So, for me, I definitely consider it more in terms of mysteries and horror. I imagine a lot of fantasies have elements of the gothic (old creaky castles, heavily atmospheric and gloomy settings, mysterious and ambiguous characters who may be really good or really bad...), but for me, that term ends up being overshadowed by other classifications when it comes to fantasy/sci-fi works.

I'm also doing the horror-kit, so I'm not against there being overlap, though I'll admit that I'm curious to see where books end up falling. For me, the presence of ghosts by itself usually pushes a book towards horror as opposed to fantasy, so I suppose that when it comes down to it, I describe ghostly or supernatural events in that way only when they're in horror or ghost stories, and as fantastic or magical when I align the book in fantasy.

In any case, I'm confusing myself trying to sort between these different terms, so I'm going to go back to lurking and enjoy what comes of all this.

>62 whitewavedarling: Yup, I agree with you that I'd consider ghosts more horror than fantasy, I just figured that would fit in with the "speculative fiction" part of the CAT.

I don't really know much about what counts as speculative fiction, but this is what wikipedia says: "Speculative fiction is a broad literary genre encompassing any fiction with supernatural, fantastical, or futuristic elements."

I haven't posted much here lately as I don't really feel I know much about the fine details separating one sub-genre from another so I'm going to sit back and let others work through it.

I do hope that both "women" and "diversity" make it through as separate categories. And that horror isn't a category of its own. I know there's a lot of horror stories that cross over into SFF, but I don't see why there has to be a category for horror. If someone wants to read Lovecraft's The Call of Cthulhu for this CAT, it'd work well as either "weird fiction", "supernatural", "creatures", "classic" or a number of others. That goes for pretty much all horror/sff books I can think of. Why squeeze in an extra category (or even share a category) for something when it works in a handful of others?

And that's not even mentioning the existence of the KIT (we'd love to have you join in, by the way) devoted purely to horror.

>64 PawsforThought: I agree wholeheartedly on women, diversity and translated/foreign authors each being its own category.

And on horror not being part of the SFFFCAT, outside of incidental overlap. Especially when there is a reading challenge all about horror going on at the same time. It spreads us too thinly and conflicts with a perfectly good KIT. Is there enough gothic science fiction and gothic fantasy to warrant a month's dedication?

There's Victorian gothic - Frankenstein, Dracula, Jane Eyre, The Woman in White, etc. And then there's fin de siècle - modern works done in the Victorian gothic style - such as The Little Stranger, Fingersmith, The Historian, and The Thirteenth Tale.

Elements that define "gothic" would include things like romance, melodrama, supernatural activity, moral dilemmas, dreary weather, decrepit mansions, insanity, and scientific curiosity.

The line dividing gothic from horror is slim but it most definitely exists. Gothic tends to be well written (literary) and understated - horrifying but not grotesque, erotic but not explicit. Horror is written in a more simplified genre style with an aim to terrorize the reader. Sarah Waters is modern gothic. John Saul is horror.

More thoughts on other stuff later........

HRO, how does science fiction or fantasy fit into a gothic theme? Should gothic go with historical or steampunk/gas lamp so that there are science fiction and fantasy reading options as well?

So, to be clear, are you saying that we should exclude any speculative fiction that isn't either fantasy or science fiction?

I don't think the existence of the HorrorKIT should have any impact on this CAT. There's a reason everyone voted for only three CATs, and it was precisely that fear of spreading ourselves too thin. I don't mind if everyone wants to focus exclusively on fantasy and science fiction here, but I think that decision should be made on its own merits, not with the idea that we can all just participate in a whole other challenge on top of the three main ones.

For the record, the HorrorKIT was already slated before this CAT was even voted on, and the KITs are explicitly so that people can do whatever challenges suit them. There's no reason to ignore them when people are planning on participating in them.

>68 _Zoe_: Not at all, but we did vote to have each month's theme work for all three genres. Can gothic do this? If not, are there suitable science fiction and fantasy themes to fit with it? Could it work as part of the historical theme, or would it better dovetail with steampunk and gas lamp? Or are there better partners for it?

>69 .Monkey.: Sure. But I don't think the existence of a KIT should mean that that type of book isn't allowed in a CAT as well.

>70 RidgewayGirl: Oh, I understand what you're saying now! Thanks for clarifying. I'll have to look more into what books fall into what genres; off the top of my head, I'd say that Frankenstein would count as Gothic SF.

>68 _Zoe_: Not sure who you're referring to. If it's me, then, I'd prefer if the CAT didn't get so washed out more or less ANY type of book would fit. That'd just make it pointless to have a CAT in the first place. I would have no problem with it being just scifi and fantasy. Wouldn't mind people taking some liberties and including borderline things.

We all have our own definitions of things but there is no way I would ever classify Jane Eyre as anything even remotely close to SFF/speculative fiction. There may be insanity and windy moors and voices carrying across for miles but it's still a "regular novel". A romantic one with moments or eeriness. But that's just a side thing, not the main quality of the story.

I don't actually remember anyone mentioning horror/gothic during the voting and pre-voting discussions of the CATs, only in the specific SFF thread. If it had been mentioned early on (and I'd seen it) I would have made my argument against it then.

>71 _Zoe_: No one is saying that the books themselves can't be read as part of the CAT. Just that a category (or several) just for them might not be a good idea. As I mentioned earlier, many of them can easily be included under other sub-genres.

How about combining gothic with noir?

>73 PawsforThought: Well, it was at least mentioned at the very beginning of the discussion (pre-voting), and seems to have been the inspiration for the whole HorrorKIT idea.

Anyway, I don't mind if it doesn't get chosen.

I think gothic, as well as the others included in that theme (Ghosts, Atmospheric, Supernatural/Paranormal) could be classified as "dark fantasy" - and thus qualify for this CAT.

A notable number of the books that have won or been nominated for the British Fantasy Award are titles that I think many would call horror but were classified as "dark fantasy" for purposes of the award. (See the list HERE.)

I confess I can't even pretend to understand the difference between dark fantasy and horror. But is there a difference? Absolutely.

>76 _Zoe_: Thanks for pointing it out. I don't remember reading that.

>43 RidgewayGirl:
So a historically-themed month, which would encompass anything set in an alternate past?
Yes

And a future Punk theme, with all "punk" sub-genres, save steampunk?
Yes

New weird falling into the historical?
No. "Punks & New Weird" together as both are futuristic.

Do 1. and 11. overlap too much?
No. "Time Travel/Alt History" is entirely different from "Fantasy & SF in Historical Setting." I agree with the explanations others have given above.

Do we want to include things like cyberpunk, etc, at all? What should that theme be called?
"Punks & New Weird" if we include it. They're a bit low on my list of choices, but I do have books on the 2015 TBR that would fit.

Do we want diversity put together with global SFFF?
I would like this combination because I'm more interested in translated works than I am in diversity. But I'm not going to fight for it. :)

How is 10 (Gothic, Ghosts, Atmospheric, Supernatural/Paranormal, etc.) represented in Science Fiction or Fantasy?
HRO, how does science fiction or fantasy fit into a gothic theme? Should gothic go with historical or steampunk/gas lamp so that there are science fiction and fantasy reading options as well?

IMO, gothic goes with ghosts, atmospheric, supernatural/paranormal. Modern gothic does not have to have a historical setting - it just has to follow the "formula" of gothic fiction.

I explained how it fits with fantasy above in my posts about gothic fiction and dark fantasy.

I can think of a few examples of atmospheric, supernatural/paranormal for sci-fi. The Madness Season by C.S. Friedman has psionic vampire aliens. 9Tail Fox by Jon Courtenay Grimwood is a noir detective/cyberpunk novel with a ghost. And there is contact with/use of souls in the afterlife in Banner of Souls by Liz Scott, which is set in the very distant future. I'm sure there are loads of others.

Could the "Major Works of SFF" also include nominees/winners of SFF awards?

By the by, I'm not trying to rush anything by compiling these lists of tabulations. It's just my way of organizing where we are with things. Everyone who still has ideas, opinions, lists. etc. please continue to share! :)

Also, I'm more than willing to volunteer to lead a month for the challenge!

Admittedly, I get somewhat confused over terms every time I "step" into this thread, but in case the distinction in my head will help...

re. the line between spec. fiction and magical realism:

For me, there's a big difference between magical realism and speculative fiction, but that distinction is primarily that one takes fantasy further, and on a more complete level. So, for instance, the admittedly simplistic way I describe magical realism to really young students is that a magical/unreal element (or maybe two) intrudes into an otherwise realistic world. A good example is, of course, Marquez: Take a story like "The Very Old Man With Enormous Wings" (which is a great story, and a great example of how a simple/lovely story can get translated into a very disturbing movie!). The world is, very simply, realistic, BUT, then a very old man with enormous wings (literally) lands in the middle of this realistic world.

In speculative fiction, there isn't any truly reality-based world. The world itself is unfamiliar, as in the case with something like Gaiman's or Vandermeer's work, or what I'm more and more hearing is "New Weird", which I only started hearing recently. Kelly Link is another really good example. All of them could be labeled other things, but they go too far for magical realism, and they don't firmly fit fantasy, sci-fi, or horror. Honestly, I'd say that spec. fiction is the term that universities and academics have worked up to label sci-fi and fantasy which is also clearly smart and literary--like 'horror', 'sci-fi' and 'fantasy' are still pretty unpopular as serious areas of academic study (accepted black sheep at best). 'Spec. fiction' seems to be a more accepted term, for these same genres, when they step into clearly 'literary' territory.

This was long-winded--I hope it helps! I think spec. fiction might also be the term accepted for works like "Memory Wall", a novella by Anthony Doerr which is simply wonderful--there are elements which would lead you to call it sci-fi or magical realism, but it isn't clearly on either ground, so the term 'spec fiction' comes into play immediately if you discuss it in an academic setting!

If you like, just take from this that "The Very Old Man With Enormous Wings" is a wonderful story suitable for children and a very disturbing R/X-rated movie, and everyone should read the novella "Memory Wall".

Any suggested themes must have a good selection of books for each genre. If it's a stretch to apply gothic to science fiction, let's add it to another theme. Which one?

>75 majkia: Are we moving too far from the scope of the CAT with that? While people can and do interpret each CAT as they choose, this isn't really intended to be the place to mention reading Jane Eyre or Sarah Waters, although if someone decides that a particular book fits, then, for them, it does.

As of now, there are the following additions or amendments:

Time travel & alternate history (this needs more fleshing out to avoid time travel romances or books that just use time travel incidentally to get the story started, like Outlander. And maybe a clearer idea of what alternate history would mean for all three genres.)

Award winners (should this be put with important works?)

Number 11, from post >41 Her_Royal_Orangeness: should read SF, fantasy and speculative fiction with a historical setting. Could we call it "Alternate past?" Is there a science fiction sub genre for this?

Punks and New Weird (Could someone supply a description of these?)

We need to discuss whether diversity and global SFFF should go together or be separate. I think that they can each stand alone, and that they don't fit together well, but those with more knowledge of the subject should weigh in, please.

Does anyone not think Women in SFFF should stand alone?

>83 Samantha_kathy: I would think so myself. If Time travel & Alternate history are chosen as a theme for a month, Outlander will be as good a choice as The Time Machine.

I would put Outlander in Fantasy, and The Time Machine in Science fiction.

>82 RidgewayGirl:

If it's a stretch to apply gothic to science fiction, let's add it to another theme. Which one?

Gothic is fantasy, not science fiction. Combining gothic with ghosts, atmospheric, supernatural/paranormal allows for the inclusion of sci-fi. See my explanation/examples >79 Her_Royal_Orangeness:

this isn't really intended to be the place to mention reading....Sarah Waters

The Little Stranger by Sarah Waters was nominated for the Shirley Jackson Award, an award given to "literature of psychological suspense, horror and the dark fantastic"....so why not? Sarah Waters is one of the dominant names in modern gothic.

Are we going to take "gothic, ghosts, atmospheric, supernatural/paranormal" completely off the table for consideration because it crosses boundaries with horror? If someone reads something that is more horror than dark fantastical....is that really a huge issue? I think for several people this CAT is about learning about the genres/subgenres and how to define and differentiate them.

SF, fantasy and speculative fiction with a historical setting. Could we call it "Alternate past?" Is there a science fiction sub genre for this?

Historical setting/alternate past are almost, but not quite, the same thing. Alternate past is very nearly historical fiction but with a few things changed from what really happened. Historical setting takes place in a time period like a historical one but with significant enough changes that it's just barely recognizable as such.

A Song for Arbonne is an example of historical setting. It's based on medieval Europe but there are few, if any, "real" people or events. The Guns of the South is an example of alternate history. It's about the Civil War, with General Lee as a character, but asks the question, "What if the troops used AK47s?"

"Historical setting" and "alternate history" apply to both fantasy and sci-fi, depending on the plot/style/tropes/etc. of the book.

Eifelheim - aliens in 14th century Germany - is sci-fi. The Shadow of Albion - rescuing a missing princess in Napoleonic era Europe - is fantasy.

Punks and New Weird (Could someone supply a description of these?

"New Weird" as a subgenre is basically a mash-up of fantasy, science, and horror. It's dark and fantastical with gadgets/technology/etc. It's unclassifiable and.....weird.

And this quote about New Weird is on the amazon page for the anthology The Weird: A Compendium of Strange and Dark Stories edited by Jeff Vandermeer and Ann Vandermeer.

"In the 1990s, a new kind of genre story seemed to have sprung up. It was frightening but seldom gory; either not quite as realistic as or less fantastic than it initially promised; very short on monsters no matter how monstrous it got; eerie but just about never ghostly (at least, no ghosts horned into the act); creepy even when it decided to be funny; and un-, far more than super-, natural. The VanderMeers, wife and husband editors of this doorstopper, were in the front rank of those fostering what Jeff explains in the introduction was actually a revival of a fictional manner with roots in the early twentieth century and grand masters who spent their lives ignored and unpublished..." (Booklist)

See THIS LIST for examples.

I definitely plan to read A Breath of Snow and Ashes by Diana Gabaldon for this challenge next year. Once the months are sorted out can somebody confirm which category it will go in? I'm thinking "time travel".

>43 RidgewayGirl:
And because I might otherwise miss it, if someone has suggested a theme outside of the list in 41...

Just wanted to point out that I cut these three from the list of Top Twelve posted in message 41. They are still up for consideration/discussion/voting.

Urban Fantasy - 2
Quests, Puzzles, Other World Archaeology/Anthropology - 1
Scientists, mad or otherwise - 1

I'm unsure why you think noir is a step too far. There are quite a few noir science fiction books, such as Richard K. Morgan's work, Simon R. Green, George Alec Effinger, and J.D. Robb.

I made the suggestion only to multiply the number of options for gothic and since both are very much atmospheric and dark.

>88 majkia: I've seen that flavor of noir called "tech noir."

The thread has me a bit confused as well. It seems to be trying to pin down what comes under each classification while at the same time saying everyone can put them where they think it belongs...

A science fiction book is never going to fit in just 'one' spot. Why not make the divisions less strict and have this discussion when we're reading? If the challenge gets too narrow a focus I will probably just ignore it unless I was planning on reading sometihing and it fell into that spot.

I wish there would just be a vote to get the big themes over and done with.

>83 Samantha_kathy: Yup, I agree that Outlander would be fine.

I'd be happy to vote on Diversity and Global separately, and then consider combining them if only one gets selected.

I'm getting completely confused about Historical vs. Alternate History. And to complicate that discussion further, I have another question: Does Historical have to be written more recently, or would it include books that were actually written during the time period but have now become historical?

And at this point I'd be happy to revise my "Gothic" to the proposed "Gothic, Ghosts, Atmospheric, Supernatural/Paranormal, etc." I'm generally in favour of more straightforward categories, but this discussion has become way too complicated.

Would it be helpful to have some definitions before voting? Here is the definition of Alternate History from worldswithoutend.com:

Alternate history or alternative history is a subgenre of speculative fiction (or some would say of science fiction) that is set in a world in which history has diverged from history as it is generally known; more simply put, alternate history asks the question, "What if history had developed differently?" Most works in this genre are set in real historical contexts, yet feature social, geopolitical or industrial circumstances that developed differently or at a different pace from our own. While to some extent all fiction can be described as alternate history, the subgenre proper comprises fiction in which a change or point of divergence happens that causes history to diverge from our own.

Here is the definition of historical fantasy:

This sub-genre is very similar to the "Alternate History" sub-genre. It is a subgenre in which stories are set in a specified historical period but with some element of fantasy added to the world, such as magic or a mythical creatures or characters. Often the magic retreats from the world so as to allow history to continue unaltered. When the plot alters history, as it were, the story moves into the Alternate History sub-genre.

They don't have a definition for historical science fiction but substitute an element of sci fi, such as aliens.

I think we should vote on the categories that sound most interesting and then discuss the different books that folks choose as relates to the theme, without worrying about how strictly they fit, since the boundaries between sub-genres are clearly porous. I think it could lead to some interesting discussions and discoveries of new books.

So do we want to vote for alternate history and historical SFFF as separate things, or together? Do we want both, and so combine them, or would we rather have just one, so that we can concentrate on the single sub genre? It seems to me that combining them would strengthen the choices available without diluting the theme too much. But please disagree and tell me why this is a bad idea as an extra topic or three up for a vote is not hard to do.

Again, if an individual wants to consider Outlander a fantasy novel, or The Little Stranger as paranormal, no one is going to argue with you. But as a group, let's keep the focus on science fiction, fantasy and speculative fiction and not wander too far afield. You can call Moby Dick a space opera if you want and the most that will happen is some serious eye-rolling from someone on their laptop six hundred miles away.

And, speaking of which, where does space opera fit?

Oh, and urban fantasy. That's a huge sub genre, and we should include it if we can. Where can it fit, or what would be the science fiction equivalent? We could mash it with space opera and call it a day, with the understanding that there's plenty of urban fantasy that falls in with speculative fiction. What do you think?

I find urban fantasy to be seriously different from space opera!

From Wikipedia:

Space opera is a subgenre of science fiction that often emphasizes romantic, often melodramatic adventure, set mainly or entirely in outer space, usually involving conflict between opponents possessing advanced abilities, weapons, and other technology.

and

Urban fantasy is a sub-genre of fantasy defined by place; the fantastic narrative has an urban setting. Urban fantasy exists on one side of a spectrum, opposite high fantasy, which is set in an entirely fictitious world. Many urban fantasies are set in contemporary times and contain supernatural elements. However, the stories can take place in historical, modern, or futuristic periods, and the settings may include fictional elements. The prerequisite is that they must be primarily set in a city.

Yeah, even I get that, hailelib. But if urban fantasy and space opera are to be included (and I would argue that they have a strong presence in fantasy/ speculative fiction and science fiction, respectively and it would be a pity to have them ignored. What would better fit with both of these?

Should we put space opera with 7. Outer space and first contact, and then put urban fantasy with 3. myths, legends and fairy tales?

They might fit better that way than together. At any rate I would like to see them both included...

>96 RidgewayGirl: I think they can be included without being explicitly listed as part of specific categories. A book classified as "space opera" would clearly fit in the outer space category, while urban fantasy would often fit with paranormal.

I should add that I don't see any necessary connection between urban fantasy and myths, legends, fairy tales, etc. Since urban fantasy is a big and popular genre, I think that including it in there would just dilute that category excessively.

Now I'm kind of thinking that the themes are getting too broad. Perhaps we should do like for the HistoryCAT, list all the possible choices and vote. After we see which get the top votes then maybe we could combine some of the losers with the winners if that makes sense.

I would definitely not combine urban fantasy with space opera, for instance.

>100 sturlington: Yup, I agree. I'd prefer to say that each theme should be reasonably flexible (not restricting people to a single genre), rather than saying that each theme has to encompass everything.

Each theme doesn't have to encompass everything, and there will be things left out, but we did agree to have each theme work for science fiction, fantasy and speculative fiction. So that makes things kinda broad automatically.

What about combining alternate history & historical fantasy and having time travel be its own category?

I agree with 98. Urban fantasy and space opera would naturally fit with some of the other categories.

>102 RidgewayGirl: There was actually even more (unanimous) support for the proposition that "The themes should be reasonably focused, but with enough flexibility to accommodate people who don't normally read a lot of SF/F" than for the proposition that "The monthly themes should be ones that are easily found in all three genres (science fiction, fantasy and speculative fiction)".

https://www.librarything.com/topic/180263#4842121
https://www.librarything.com/topic/180263#4842072

>102 RidgewayGirl: & >104 _Zoe_: The idea was to read works in theses three genres; if possible, the monthly themes would scope the three genres but it was not an imperative. I thought that people were more interested by the possibility to be introduced to variety and what variation a sub-genre could take in fantasy or science fiction but overall, once the choices would be made, the discussion about what works fit and why, will be an interesting way to dive deeper in the world of SFF.

I think that urban fantasy and outer space are completely different, alternate history and SFF history too but overall, we should perhaps put all the themes up to vote separately and see what comes up; then we could combine the least successful contenders with the 'winners' when possible ...

>105 electrice: I'd definitely like to be introduced to variety and have themes that are unified enough to have some sort of meaningful discussion. But I'm not sure how much that's the general view, vs. how much people just want to be able to read their preferred genre as much as possible.

Unrelated, I wonder if "Gothic, Ghosts, Atmospheric, Supernatural/Paranormal, etc." should just be listed as Supernatural/Paranormal, since people have been pretty explicit that Gothic/atmospheric on its own shouldn't be included. Ghosts are a subset of Supernatural/Paranormal.

>106 _Zoe_: I think it makes sense just to say Supernatural/Paranormal as a voting option. That would include a lot of Gothic as well.

When you do the next voting could you start a new thread and label it voting?

In the end, we'll put every theme up there for a vote and the ones that make it are the ones we want.

I'm looking forward to learning about a set of genres I don't know much about. I'd rather it not be a CAT where we all read what we would anyway, but get to call it a challenge, but if that is what most people want, then let's do it. What does everyone want? That's less a topic for conversation than something to keep in mind when the votes roll out.

The advantage last year's genre-oriented CAT had was that mysteries have clearer definitions. Authors do go outside the parameters regularly, but the parameters are somewhat agreed upon. It made picking the monthly themes a lot easier than this! Science fiction and fantasy seem to be like German grammar -- there are always more exceptions than cases the rules apply to.

As far a losing themes go -- I would suggest that they be left. To go back and try and put them with other themes in order to save them would need a lot more voting and discussion.

How many votes do we want to have for this? Yes, the votes are anonymous, so if you disagree, you can do what you want without anyone knowing but, in general, could we keep the number of votes limited to no more than twelve? Obviously, if you don't like that many, just vote for the ones you want.

I've counted 25 possible themes. I'll list them tomorrow, when I have time and a fresh head. Then we'll see what I missed, misnamed or otherwise before we vote. People start voting as soon as I get anything up, so it won't be possible to change wording or split a theme in two once voting has started. It would be possible to add a forgotten theme, but I think that theme then gets less consideration.

Just to make sure we all agree (ha ha ha, etc), gothic and urban fantasy are a part of the supernatural/paranormal theme. That seems to be the most contentious topic; have we found a home for gothic? If anyone wants it to be voted on as a month's theme all on its own, we will, but my own view is that it stands a better chance if it's part of that larger theme.

HRO, I'm not ignoring you volunteering. Hold onto that and start thinking about which theme you'd like to host and volunteer again as soon as voting ends. That way you can grab your preferred theme and volunteer at the same time.

>108 mysterymax: Yes.

>109 RidgewayGirl: That sounds good! I'm glad we'll have a chance to discuss what items are actually on the list before voting starts.

That said, I'm not sure we'll be able to come to a full consensus about everything beforehand. I wonder if it would be reasonable to include some overlapping themes, with the understanding that they won't all be included? E.g., we could have "Diversity", "Global", and "Diversity and Global" on the list to be voted on, but if the combination gets more votes than either of the individual ones (and enough to be one of the 12 categories), then the individual ones won't also be included.

>109 RidgewayGirl: I like your resolution of including gothic in supernatural/paranormal. It seems to be a logical subset, in my opinion, and will still allow those who love gothic to read it!

Science Fiction/Speculative and Fantasy sub genres are notoriously difficult to sort out and define, especially with so much crossing over and "blending." I have a little bit more sympathy for my daughter's teacher who made the seemingly arbitrary distinction between science fiction and fantasy ("Mice as characters? Science Fiction! Talking mice? Fantasy!")

I've been reading through people's comments and trying to get a handle on it all. I ending up reading a number of extramural posts/articles to help me understand some of this and for me, I've found considering sub-genres in a literary-and-historical perspective helpful. Basically, I've been mentally sorting everyone's suggestions into Past/Present/Future/Other categories by feel either in setting, or when a sub-genre seemed to have reached its respective Golden Age:

PAST:
• The late 19th/early 20th century: Fantasy, Gaslamp, Steampunk, Gothic, Mad Scientists (Jules Verne, H.G. Wells, Cherie Priest, Gail Carringer, Sir Author Conan Doyle, Edgar Alan Poe)
• The Golden Age (Mid-Century - From Roswell to the Moon Landing): Hard Science-Fiction, First Contact, Space Operas (Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, Ray Bradbury, Lois McMaster Bujold, Harry Harrison)
• Later 20th Century: Epic Fantasy (Frank Hebert, Stephen Donaldson, J.R.R. Tolkien, George R.R. Martin)

PRESENT/NEAR FUTURE:
• Urban Fantasy - (Jim Butcher, Kate Griffin, Ben Aaronovitch, Connie Willis)
• New Weird/Alternate Reality: Octopi, Other Place - (H.P.Lovecraft, Neil Gaiman, China Meiville)
• Genre Benders - (Thomas Sweterlitsch, Jim Butcher)

FUTURE:
• Cyberpunk - (Wiliam Gibson, Neil Stephenson)
• Time Travel - (Sean Farrell, Diana Gabaldon, Audrey Neffenegger, Lauren Beukes, Norman Lock)
• Dystopia/Utopia, Apocalyptic/Post-apocalyptic: Zombies, Plague, Nuclear Winters, Change in World Order - (George Orwell, Cormac McCarthy, James Dashner)

OTHER:
• Women/Diversity - (Margaret Atwood, Ursula K. LeGuin, Octavia Butler, Madeleine L’Engle)
• Alternate History - (Kim Stanley Robinson, Philip Roth)
• Mythic fiction: Myths, Legends, Fairy tales, Fables, Folklore - (Marissa Meyer, Rick Riordan)

When the polls go up, I'll probably vote along those lines :-)

>113 Tanya-dogearedcopy: Thank you, that's super helpful! I particularly like your late 19th/early 20th century category, which includes a lot of the trickier thematic categories (gaslamp, gothic, mad scientists), has plenty of flexibility, and yet still manages to feel more unified than the general "historical setting".

>113 Tanya-dogearedcopy: Really like that! (Except I'd put Tolkien in with the Golden Age) Helps with sorting things out in my head.

>111 _Zoe_: So what happens if two themes make the list, diversity, and Global and Diversity, with the first receiving more votes? Do we keep both, choose the combo or dump Global? I think it would be clearer to have each as it's own thing, as there isn't really a connection (as in Steampunk & Gas Lamp, for example). But I'm willing to have them combined if we want to.

How about a 24 hour vote to just take a reading on that one issue? Would that be acceptable to everyone?

>115 PawsforThought: In my mind, The Golden Age had more of a "Area 51" feel to it... more ray guns, robots, aliens and space ships, which is why I put space opera there along with the Old School Science Fiction writers. I put Tolkien in with Epic Fantasy along with other writers of quest-type sagas. But your way works too, and that's the beauty of sorting things out on paper or in a post: You can cut/past/edit to suit! :-)

>117 Tanya-dogearedcopy: He certainly wrote epic fantasy. I was reacting mostly to the time frame he was placed in (late 20th century) as opposed to the one used with the Golden Age (mid-century). Tolkien was active in the 30's-60's so definitely mid- and not late 20th century.

Uhm, space opera these days is not just about ray guns and robots. Iain M. Banks, Alastair Reynolds, John Scalzi, James S.A. Corey are more into the cultural differences and how different aliens might be than old style space opera (like Star Wars).

ETA, just let's not accept definitions that are too broad.

..........

>116 RidgewayGirl: I'd say that if Diversity alone gets more votes than Diversity + Global, then we include Diversity as a standalone category, and consider the standalone votes for Global to see whether that's also included as a separate category. But we wouldn't have one month for Diversity and another month for Diversity + Global.

But you're the one coming up with the voting list :). If you can manage to reduce all the overlapping categories to a list of disjoint categories in a way that makes everyone happy, more power to you!

OMG, Zoe. I'm not going to make everyone happy! My goal is to have everyone equally, but only mildly annoyed with me. Universal happiness is just not possible with so many people so interested & knowledgeable, all with individual opinions.

>122 RidgewayGirl: Hey, I'm already happy we're doing this CAT. The themes are just icing on the cake. :-)

>122 RidgewayGirl: Hehe, that sounds like a good goal :D

Happy to do the CAT, and I will gladly be happy with whatever themes are chosen. Universal happiness about the themes would likely be utopia, it would fit nicely with the CAT but heh RL and all the jazz :)

>122 RidgewayGirl: You're doing a great job, Ridgewaygirl! I wish we could all just chillax a little. CATs are meant to be fun as well as challenging but it seems that there is a feeling of precision with a touch of fanaticism to the choosing of the categories that overshadows the fun. I have not chimed in on the lineup because 1) I don't have a degree in literature much less one with an emphasis on SFF and 2) To paraphrase P.T. Barnum, you can't please all the people all the time and 3) This is supposed to be fun. (I know I said that already.) If a desired category isn't chosen, tant pis, as they say in France. Next month's category may be more to your liking or your book can be shoehorned or twisted to fit in any way you like. (In this group we are nothing if not flexible!)

It has made me very uncomfortable the way some posts sound positively angry if a certain category isn't accepted. Maybe this is why I haven't taken part in any TIOLI- type challenges before. I was hoping to take part this year but it bothers me how some members seem to insist on perfectly accurate definitions and delineations of genres.

I've said my piece now and will withdraw back into lurking mode until the categories are settled and the CAT is open for business next January.

>126 mamzel: I gave up on this thread and this CAT awhile ago, since I can't quite grasp the sub-genres. I just check in periodically to see if anything has been settled. I figure I will wait until it is all sorted out and rely on the monthly hosts to suggest books that I might be interested in and would fit the category. I plan on reading Cloud Atlas and maybe The Handmaid's Tale next year, so I will wait until someone else is reading them, so I'll know where they fit.

Back to lurking . . .

Maybe I'm just thick but I actually haven't felt any kind of hostility or aggression among people posting here. People having different opinions and posting them, sure, but that's what forums are meant for. And we'll never get anywhere if we don't talk about what we think.

I too thought there was a notable lack of hostility just a lot of opinions and ideas. RidgewayGirl you're doing great.

I was kidding. It's fun how everyone does have opinions, but is doing a great job of respecting the opinions of others. It would be disappointing to have everyone just lay down and agree!

So a quick 24 hour vote. YES means that there will be one theme, Diversity and Global SFFF, up for voting tomorrow.
NO means that Diversity and Global SFFF will each be a separate theme in the voting.
Note: Voting here in no way means that you will vote for any of these themes in the larger vote.

So, here is what I've pulled out:

1. Does Anybody Know What Time It Is? -- Time Travel & Alternative History
2. Fairy Tales and Myths
3. Slipstream and Interstitial (This includes Magic Realism and Genre Benders)
4. Other Worlds -- From Space Opera to First Contact
5. The Classics -- SFFF Written before 1980
6. Critters and Creatures -- Non-Humans from Aliens to Dragons
7. Girl Power -- SFFF Written By Women
*8. Diversity -- SFFF with LGBTQ, Disabled or Minority Main Characters or authors
9. It's the End of the World As We Know It -- Apocalyptic, Dystopic and Post-Apocalyptic Novels
10. Other Pasts -- Steampunk, Gas Lamp and other historical SFFF
11. What Was That? -- Supernatural, Paranormal and the Just Plain Inexplicable (Urban Fantasy, Contemporary Fantasy and Gothic would fit here)
12. Off on a Quest -- Heros, Superheroes, Puzzles and Epic Journeys
*13. I Think We Need a BabelFish -- Translated books originally written in languages other than English
14. You Rotten Punk! -- CyberPunk, TechnoPunk, BioPunk and the New Weird
15. Under the Influence -- Influential and/or Award Winning and Award Nominated SFFF
16. Lab Rats -- Science and Scientists

* This may change, subject to the vote in >130 RidgewayGirl:

Have I missed anything? Does anything need to be its own theme, rather than being placed with other topics? Anybody have better names for the themes?

Seems fine to me :)

Just call it outer space. Space opera is a very specific type of subgenre and one need not read space opera to read outer space.

I'd go with Creatures & Critters. That covers the scary creatures (aliens, vamps, zombies) AND the cute critters (anthropomorphic animals, unicorns).

Having both "alternate pasts" and "alternate history" sounds confusing and too similar. I'd rather "alternate pasts" be something like "sff in historical setting."

For "Influential and/or Award Winning SFFF" does it have to be award WINNING or can we make it "books that were nominated for and/or won a SFF award"?

Other than that, it looks good. I like the combos and the names.

>131 RidgewayGirl: I LOVE the theme names!

Thanks, electrice and Paws.

HRO, See the above changes. Thanks for the input.

Thanks for putting it all together!

Various thoughts: The "Other Pasts" category seems pretty restrictive if it's only steampunk and gaslamp. Could we also include the "late 19th/early 20th century" category that was mentioned above?

"Imaginary worlds" is extremely broad. Could we also vote on a category for "Outer space and first contact"? It's more limited in bridging the three main groupings, but still way more flexible than some of the categories that require choosing from a few specific genres.

I wonder whether we should also allow steampunk in the punks category, even if it has another category as well.

Looks like a pretty good list to me but I will read just about any book that could be shoved into a speculative fiction category.

Zoe, I've made the suggested adjustments. How does it look now?

>138 RidgewayGirl: Looks good, thanks! I'm really excited for this challenge :D

When did Diversity become "SFFF with LGBTQ, Disabled or Different Main Characters"?

All this time I've been thinking diversity was about AUTHORS who are non-Caucasian and/or not American or British. Which is why I thought diversity & translated worked together as a theme.

Am I totally wrong, or is it misworded on the list in >131 RidgewayGirl: ?

>140 Her_Royal_Orangeness: Diversity to me suggests more or less what it's described as in >131 RidgewayGirl: But we all think differently. Though I'd definitely included authors who are LGBT, disabled, etc. (including non-white) as well as characeters.
I wouldn't include white, but non-British/American in that.

I was thinking that Diversity included non-white, but not necessarily non-British/American.

HRO, I replaced a word in the Diversity description. I'm not entirely happy with it, but does it get your point across?

>143 RidgewayGirl: I think diversity should refer to characters or authors.

Somehow, I also had authors in mind for Diversity.

Done, sturlington. Any more changes will be added in the morning. I have a cold and so I'm off to bed with Nyquil and my book (all seven seconds I'll be awake after taking the Nyquil). What? It's 8:15 in the evening here!

I had been thinking that both authors and characters would be fine for both the women and diversity categories.

I like the change made to add authors to Diversity, but now I have thirteen themes I want to vote for! Now I need to pare one off my list.

Scalzi's latest, Lock In, would be a great one to read for this category.

I know I'm not speaking up much in this discussion as I don't know the subgenres very well, but I voted for "urban fantasy" and would love to see it stay. It is one subgenre that I *know* I like. :-)

ETA: Sorry, I posted before finishing reading the thread (again!). In fact, it's the end of my lunch hour, so I only skimmed the last little bit.

Anyway, I'm ok with urban being included in paranormal/supernatural (though they are both ones I like and would also love them separate).

Well, I'm sure it will be included somewhere. Funny, it's the most problematical subgenre for me, because there is so much romance that is labeled as urban fantasy, that makes it hard for me to look for urban fantasy books. But to each his/her own!

>151 majkia: I never even thought of romance when I thought of urban fantasy! Gotta get back to work!

>151 majkia: Wouldn't that be pararomance? My library differentiates between urban fantasy and pararomance (Twilight, etc.).

>152 LibraryCin: Just to add, yes a lot of romance falls under supernatural/paranormal and a lot of supernatural/paranormal is urban fantasy.

But when I think of urban fantasy, the first couple of authors I think of are Neil Gaiman and Charles de Lint.

>154 LibraryCin: Are there some specific books of theirs that you don't think would count as supernatural/paranormal?

I changed my vote about Diversity and Translated being separate. Even if we do include both authors AND characters in Diversity, there's nothing same/same about (for example) a Japanese author translated into English and a glbtq author.

>151 majkia: I agree Magika. I often feel like urban fantasy and paranormal romance are one and the same, at least the way they are marketed and tagged.

Technically, we should probably include "contemporary fantasy" with "urban fantasy." Contemporary fantasy is fantasy set in the real world in the present day. It's quite similar to urban fantasy, but a requirement of urban fantasy is that the setting must be a city, whereas contemporary can be anywhere as long as it's real.

Coming out of lurking mode for a basic question:

How do you tell which genre/sub-genre a book belongs to? I just looked at my copy of Cloud Atlas and nothing on the cover tells me that it is anything other than fiction. Do you actually research each book before you acquire it?

>157 LoisB: The easiest way is to look at the tag cloud on the LT work page. Some of the prominent tags for Cloud Atlas include "dystopia" and "science fiction".

In general, I only do enough research to determine whether I want to read a book, which may or may not include looking at the tags.

>155 _Zoe_: Good question. I suppose they could count. I guess it's just the way I think of it. I think of supernatural/paranormal as vampires, werewolves, etc.

Before that question was posed, I have been thinking about a case for urban fantasy. Here's what I'm thinking pro-urban fantasy.

I think it makes fantasy more "accessible" to those of us who don't usually read it. It might sort of "ease" us into it.

>156 Her_Royal_Orangeness: Technically, we should probably include "contemporary fantasy" with "urban fantasy." Contemporary fantasy is fantasy set in the real world in the present day. It's quite similar to urban fantasy, but a requirement of urban fantasy is that the setting must be a city, whereas contemporary can be anywhere as long as it's real.

I'd agree with this combination.

Now, I'll most likely go back to lurking again in this thread...

I've added Contemporary Fantasy to the Supernatural/Paranormal theme. There are a lot of sub genres out there! It'll be up to each reader to decide whether a book fits a month's theme, so it'll be more flexible (or less, depending on how you like to do things) that it appears at first glance.

Voting is open! Please visit the new thread, where all the voting is conveniently located at the beginning.