This topic is currently marked as "dormant"—the last message is more than 90 days old. You can revive it by posting a reply.
1enevada
Probably many of you have read Camille Paglia’s recent opinion piece of the infantilized culture on today’s college campuses vis-à-vis the widespread administrative response to complaints of sexual assault by setting up ad hoc tribunals and enforcing ridiculously authoritarian zero-tolerance policies.
She raises some good points on the academic and intellectual inadequacies to confront the age-old problem of evil in a society that no longer understands or even acknowledges it. That’s what Paglia talks about here: http://time.com/3444749/camille-paglia-the-modern-campus-cannot-comprehend-evil/
What interests me is the infantilized experience of college across the board – with our own kids poised to enter and experience college, it seems like collective regression to me. I would prefer a system where students could test-out of college and go directly to grad school, after showing sufficient academic standing and life experience in lieu of the traditional college experience , which, in all honesty, has become extremely expensive day care for what should be adult children.
Anybody else have thoughts on that?
She raises some good points on the academic and intellectual inadequacies to confront the age-old problem of evil in a society that no longer understands or even acknowledges it. That’s what Paglia talks about here: http://time.com/3444749/camille-paglia-the-modern-campus-cannot-comprehend-evil/
What interests me is the infantilized experience of college across the board – with our own kids poised to enter and experience college, it seems like collective regression to me. I would prefer a system where students could test-out of college and go directly to grad school, after showing sufficient academic standing and life experience in lieu of the traditional college experience , which, in all honesty, has become extremely expensive day care for what should be adult children.
Anybody else have thoughts on that?
2nathanielcampbell
There's an interesting review article in the Chronicle of Higher Ed this week that addresses this "infantilization" from one angle: Stop Blaming Students for Your Listless Classroom . (It is, in part, a review of Mark Carnes' new book, Minds on Fire: How Role-Immersion Games Transform College, and in part an appraisal of Carnes' "Reacting to the Past" curriculum.)
Here's the salient paragraphs:
Here's the salient paragraphs:
"Instead of being thrilled by the eager search for truth," laments one senior administrator, "our classes too often sit listless on the bench. … It is not because the lecturer is dull, but because the pupils do not prize the end enough to relish the drudgery required for skill in any great pursuit." A political-science faculty member claims that college has descended to the level of "protected juvenile delinquency." A famous philosopher, in a more melancholy tone, says that students’ college years are mostly "trivial and wasted." A faculty member at Columbia University seems to have given up hope entirely: "I do as little as I can for these dunderheads and save my time for research."
If the language in some of those quotes strikes you as old-fashioned, it should. The first one comes from an essay by the president of Harvard University published in 1909. The second is from the eminent political theorist, Judith Shklar, at the beginning of her teaching career in 1951. The third is from a 1921 monograph by the philosopher George Santayana. The final one comes from Ogden Rood, a faculty member who taught at Columbia in the late 19th century.
You will find all of these delightful quotes, and more like them, in Minds on Fire: How Role-Immersion Games Transform College, the new book by the Barnard College historian Mark C. Carnes. In it, he sketches the history of the pedagogical approach known as Reacting to the Past, and argues for its potential to break the long history of student disengagement in college learning. (...) Carnes opens by thoroughly establishing two premises, the first of which stems from the evidence he provides of American higher education’s long history of blaming students for listless courses. The collection of telling quotations begins in the 19th century and runs right up to the present day, concluding with a list of complaints like this one from the comments section of this very publication: "It’s not me, it’s not the subject matter, it’s not the college. It’s a failing on the part of the students."
The problem with all of those critics, Carnes suggests, lies in their flawed assumption that things were ever different. They envision a Golden Age from which we have descended to the present day of apathetic students texting beneath their desks. "Many contemporary critics of higher education similarly posit a Golden Age," Carnes writes, "but no one knows when it was supposed to exist."
The second major premise of Carnes’s argument is an equally arresting one, and equally devastating to those who would argue that today’s students come to college disengaged, apathetic, and unwilling to work. Not so, argues Carnes. They are deeply engaged—just not in the traditional college classroom. By contrast, he suggests, students spend enormous amounts of time and energy devoted to what he calls "subversive play worlds," which encompass everything from competitive drinking games to social-media one-upmanship.
But that, too, Carnes notes, is absolutely nothing new. The history of subversive play worlds in higher education began with the secret debating societies of the 19th century, which college officials tried unsuccessfully to repress. When fraternities and sororities arrived on the scene, administrators longed for the days of debating societies, which at least had an intellectual component to them. As fraternities and sororities blossomed in the late 19th century, so did college football, which retains its prominent place on the scene today—accompanied by games like World of Warcraft, competition for popularity on social media, and an endless new variety of binge-drinking games.
Carnes makes a convincing case that "generations of college students have built and inhabited subversive play worlds that are distinct from the official institutions of higher education." He enjoins us to embrace the deep role-playing methodology of Reacting to the Past, an innovative and exciting teaching strategy that recreates some of the features of students’ subversive play in the classroom but directs them toward the goal of learning complex course material.
3enevada
>2 nathanielcampbell:: thanks, Nathaniel.
"I do as little as I can for these dunderheads and save my time for research."
Ha! I recently read John William’s Stoner , this sentiment rings true– and while I do not think there was a ‘golden age’ of pedagogy, I do think the astronomical inflation of tuition costs demands a wide-scale re-evaluation of the cost-benefit of the traditional four year colleges and university experience.
Resorting to role-play may be one answer – but my point is there is too much play already and not enough real work. For graduates of good high schools or home schools, who have done service work, held jobs, and traveled, traditional college is a huge step back, academically and socially.
I wonder if any industries and/ or fields of study are actively seeking the kinds of students who would prefer to test-out of college rather than endure 3-4 years of stultifying boredom and accrue significant debt? It seems to me that that population would display the qualifications (intelligence, confidence, independence of thought) that would best match successful career profiles in certain theoretical fields.
"I do as little as I can for these dunderheads and save my time for research."
Ha! I recently read John William’s Stoner , this sentiment rings true– and while I do not think there was a ‘golden age’ of pedagogy, I do think the astronomical inflation of tuition costs demands a wide-scale re-evaluation of the cost-benefit of the traditional four year colleges and university experience.
Resorting to role-play may be one answer – but my point is there is too much play already and not enough real work. For graduates of good high schools or home schools, who have done service work, held jobs, and traveled, traditional college is a huge step back, academically and socially.
I wonder if any industries and/ or fields of study are actively seeking the kinds of students who would prefer to test-out of college rather than endure 3-4 years of stultifying boredom and accrue significant debt? It seems to me that that population would display the qualifications (intelligence, confidence, independence of thought) that would best match successful career profiles in certain theoretical fields.
4krolik
Am somewhat disconnected with American campuses but what for whatever it's worth, the OP here sounds both fine by me and of course impossible, given the powerful interests at play.
It also presupposes a pretty good testing system at a time when current tests are, ahem, less-than-agreed-upon.
More generally, though, this conversation seems of a piece with a meme I've heard for a few years now, to the effect that much of higher education is a con and a self-perpetuating industry. Lots of ink and pixels have been expended.
There's a lot of truth to that description. Sure, college is over-rated, unquestionably overpriced, and society and businesses and intellectual culture would in many cases do well to move on. Assuming, of course, they have the guts and mental wherewithal to do so. Although educational institutions make easy (and often deserving) targets, plausible dissenters have to be able to propose alternatives.
And within the existing structures--what?
I'd start with stripping anything taxpayer supported for undergraduates (for starters, grants and loans) at private colleges and universities, who've been scarfing at the public trough for way too long while hypocritically claiming their independence.
For public universities, screw the athletic programs and various other toys and comfort zones. (When I teach the occasional summer course at a certain public university, the waste is IN-MY-FACE. At least turn down the goddamn air-conditioning and save on that bill...)
It's hardly my ideal of The Republic but if rich kids actually paid for their private college education (they don't, they don't), and if poor kids had a non-bullshit version of public education (a cause to which I'm attached, but no, they don't, they don't), that would be a step in the right direction.
I'm not holding my breath but it's a worthwhile conversation.
5enevada
>4 krolik:: Nice response, thank you Krolik. There is much here to consider, although I'm not engaged in a wholesale critique of higher education just another possible path for those students who stand to benefit very little from the 4-year, peer-housed, garden variety of the 'typical' college experience. Neither am I interested in reform of academia, I am simply on a fishing expedition for conceptual ideas about how this alternate or escape-valve flow might look for interested parties
I agree that an adequate testing mechanism and a viable method to select and match good candidates with good institutions, programs, businesses is, as yet, unfounded - but this also means it is an opportunity for some entrepreneur (are there any left?).
You raise excellent points on the entrenched and enabling economics of the whole gig: if rich - or any class of students - actually did pay for their education, I imagine there would be more accountability, more proven value. I'm nowhere near as democratically minded as you, as we well know. My Republic would be more akin to a medieval meritocracy - guilds for the gifted, and those willing to do the work.
I agree that an adequate testing mechanism and a viable method to select and match good candidates with good institutions, programs, businesses is, as yet, unfounded - but this also means it is an opportunity for some entrepreneur (are there any left?).
You raise excellent points on the entrenched and enabling economics of the whole gig: if rich - or any class of students - actually did pay for their education, I imagine there would be more accountability, more proven value. I'm nowhere near as democratically minded as you, as we well know. My Republic would be more akin to a medieval meritocracy - guilds for the gifted, and those willing to do the work.
6theoria
>1 enevada: It appears to me that Ms Paglia has an ax to grind and found what she felt was a convenient target upon which to launch a broadside at liberal/leftist academics blah blah. I find her simply moronic; her assertions (like the following) are unsupported by evidence: "Colleges should stick to academics and stop their infantilizing supervision of students’ dating lives, an authoritarian intrusion that borders on violation of civil liberties."
Since I fit the bill of the type of academic she slimes, I would just say that there have been mishandled cases of sexual assault. Also cases of sexual assault have been under-reported. However, rather than recycling vintage 1950s anti-leftist boilerplate ("The basic Leftist premise, descending from Marxism, is that all problems in human life stem from an unjust society and that corrections and fine-tunings of that social mechanism will eventually bring utopia."), it would be more precise to look at administrators who oversee campus safety. A much simpler and less ideologically juicy explanation is available: large institutions behave badly to protect their interests. Just look at the US military (not a bastion of leftism) and the problem of sexual assault.
Since I fit the bill of the type of academic she slimes, I would just say that there have been mishandled cases of sexual assault. Also cases of sexual assault have been under-reported. However, rather than recycling vintage 1950s anti-leftist boilerplate ("The basic Leftist premise, descending from Marxism, is that all problems in human life stem from an unjust society and that corrections and fine-tunings of that social mechanism will eventually bring utopia."), it would be more precise to look at administrators who oversee campus safety. A much simpler and less ideologically juicy explanation is available: large institutions behave badly to protect their interests. Just look at the US military (not a bastion of leftism) and the problem of sexual assault.
7theoria
FYI: Here's Title IX, which only confirms that Paglia's take is worthless. ( http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/title-ix-rights-201104.html )
Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 (“Title IX”), 20 U.S.C. §1681 et seq., is a Federal civil rights law that prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex in education programs and activities. All public and private elementary and secondary schools, school districts, colleges, and universities (hereinafter “schools”) receiving any Federal funds must comply with Title IX. Under Title IX, discrimination on the basis of sex can include sexual harassment or sexual violence, such as rape, sexual assault, sexual battery, and sexual coercion.
Below is additional information regarding the specific requirements of Title IX as they pertain to sexual harassment and sexual violence.
What are a school’s responsibilities to address sexual harassment and sexual violence?
A school has a responsibility to respond promptly and effectively. If a school knows or reasonably should know about sexual harassment or sexual violence that creates a hostile environment, the school must take immediate action to eliminate the sexual harassment or sexual violence, prevent its recurrence, and address its effects.
Even if a student or his or her parent does not want to file a complaint or does not request that the school take any action on the student’s behalf, if a school knows or reasonably should know about possible sexual harassment or sexual violence, it must promptly investigate to determine what occurred and then take appropriate steps to resolve the situation.
A criminal investigation into allegations of sexual harassment or sexual violence does not relieve the school of its duty under Title IX to resolve complaints promptly and equitably.
Every School Must Have And Distribute A Policy Against Sex Discrimination
Title IX requires that each school publish a policy that it does not discriminate on the basis of sex in its education programs and activities. This notice must be widely distributed and available on an on-going basis.
The policy must state that inquiries concerning Title IX may be referred to the school’s Title IX coordinator or to OCR.
Every School Must Have A Title IX Coordinator
Every school must designate at least one employee who is responsible for coordinating the school’s compliance with Title IX. This person is sometimes referred to as the Title IX coordinator. Schools must notify all students and employees of the name or title and contact information of the Title IX coordinator.
The coordinator’s responsibilities include overseeing all complaints of sex discrimination and identifying and addressing any patterns or systemic problems that arise during the review of such complaints.
Every School Must Have And Make Known Procedures For Students To File Complaints Of Sex Discrimination.
Title IX requires schools to adopt and publish grievance procedures for students to file complaints of sex discrimination, including complaints of sexual harassment or sexual violence. Schools can use general disciplinary procedures to address complaints of sex discrimination. But all procedures must provide for prompt and equitable resolution of sex discrimination complaints.
Every complainant has the right to present his or her case. This includes the right to adequate, reliable, and impartial investigation of complaints, the right to have an equal opportunity to present witnesses and other evidence, and the right to the same appeal processes, for both parties.
Every complainant has the right to be notified of the time frame within which: (a) the school will conduct a full investigation of the complaint; (b) the parties will be notified of the outcome of the complaint; and (c) the parties may file an appeal, if applicable.
Every complainant has the right for the complaint to be decided using a preponderance of the evidence standard (i.e., it is more likely than not that sexual harassment or violence occurred).
Every complainant has the right to be notified, in writing, of the outcome of the complaint. Even though federal privacy laws limit disclosure of certain information in disciplinary proceedings:
Schools must disclose to the complainant information about the sanction imposed on the perpetrator when the sanction directly relates to the harassed student. This includes an order that the harasser stay away from the harassed student, or that the harasser is prohibited from attending school for a period of time, or transferred to other classes or another residence hall.
Additionally, the Clery Act (20 U.S.C. §1092(f)), which only applies to postsecondary institutions, requires that both parties be informed of the outcome, including sanction information, of any institutional proceeding alleging a sex offense. Therefore, colleges and universities may not require a complainant to abide by a non-disclosure agreement, in writing or otherwise.
The grievance procedures may include voluntary informal methods (e.g., mediation) for resolving some types of sexual harassment complaints. However, the complainant must be notified of the right to end the informal process at any time and begin the formal stage of the complaint process. In cases involving allegations of sexual assault, mediation is not appropriate.
Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 (“Title IX”), 20 U.S.C. §1681 et seq., is a Federal civil rights law that prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex in education programs and activities. All public and private elementary and secondary schools, school districts, colleges, and universities (hereinafter “schools”) receiving any Federal funds must comply with Title IX. Under Title IX, discrimination on the basis of sex can include sexual harassment or sexual violence, such as rape, sexual assault, sexual battery, and sexual coercion.
Below is additional information regarding the specific requirements of Title IX as they pertain to sexual harassment and sexual violence.
What are a school’s responsibilities to address sexual harassment and sexual violence?
A school has a responsibility to respond promptly and effectively. If a school knows or reasonably should know about sexual harassment or sexual violence that creates a hostile environment, the school must take immediate action to eliminate the sexual harassment or sexual violence, prevent its recurrence, and address its effects.
Even if a student or his or her parent does not want to file a complaint or does not request that the school take any action on the student’s behalf, if a school knows or reasonably should know about possible sexual harassment or sexual violence, it must promptly investigate to determine what occurred and then take appropriate steps to resolve the situation.
A criminal investigation into allegations of sexual harassment or sexual violence does not relieve the school of its duty under Title IX to resolve complaints promptly and equitably.
Every School Must Have And Distribute A Policy Against Sex Discrimination
Title IX requires that each school publish a policy that it does not discriminate on the basis of sex in its education programs and activities. This notice must be widely distributed and available on an on-going basis.
The policy must state that inquiries concerning Title IX may be referred to the school’s Title IX coordinator or to OCR.
Every School Must Have A Title IX Coordinator
Every school must designate at least one employee who is responsible for coordinating the school’s compliance with Title IX. This person is sometimes referred to as the Title IX coordinator. Schools must notify all students and employees of the name or title and contact information of the Title IX coordinator.
The coordinator’s responsibilities include overseeing all complaints of sex discrimination and identifying and addressing any patterns or systemic problems that arise during the review of such complaints.
Every School Must Have And Make Known Procedures For Students To File Complaints Of Sex Discrimination.
Title IX requires schools to adopt and publish grievance procedures for students to file complaints of sex discrimination, including complaints of sexual harassment or sexual violence. Schools can use general disciplinary procedures to address complaints of sex discrimination. But all procedures must provide for prompt and equitable resolution of sex discrimination complaints.
Every complainant has the right to present his or her case. This includes the right to adequate, reliable, and impartial investigation of complaints, the right to have an equal opportunity to present witnesses and other evidence, and the right to the same appeal processes, for both parties.
Every complainant has the right to be notified of the time frame within which: (a) the school will conduct a full investigation of the complaint; (b) the parties will be notified of the outcome of the complaint; and (c) the parties may file an appeal, if applicable.
Every complainant has the right for the complaint to be decided using a preponderance of the evidence standard (i.e., it is more likely than not that sexual harassment or violence occurred).
Every complainant has the right to be notified, in writing, of the outcome of the complaint. Even though federal privacy laws limit disclosure of certain information in disciplinary proceedings:
Schools must disclose to the complainant information about the sanction imposed on the perpetrator when the sanction directly relates to the harassed student. This includes an order that the harasser stay away from the harassed student, or that the harasser is prohibited from attending school for a period of time, or transferred to other classes or another residence hall.
Additionally, the Clery Act (20 U.S.C. §1092(f)), which only applies to postsecondary institutions, requires that both parties be informed of the outcome, including sanction information, of any institutional proceeding alleging a sex offense. Therefore, colleges and universities may not require a complainant to abide by a non-disclosure agreement, in writing or otherwise.
The grievance procedures may include voluntary informal methods (e.g., mediation) for resolving some types of sexual harassment complaints. However, the complainant must be notified of the right to end the informal process at any time and begin the formal stage of the complaint process. In cases involving allegations of sexual assault, mediation is not appropriate.
8enevada
>6 theoria:: certainly, she's an ax grinder, but simply moronic? I don't think so, and I'll always appreciate Break, Blow, Burn and anyone who goes to battle against the heavy clods of literary theory.
>7 theoria:: Again, you're right to note that the binding legislation of the Educational Amendment Acts including Title IX has prescribed the response and responsibilities of the academic institutions in a manner that suggests (to me) over-reaction and rigidity.
>7 theoria:: A much simpler and less ideologically juicy explanation is available: large institutions behave badly to protect their interests. Bingo!
Perhaps, because of the combined effects of economic post-war prosperity and political and governmental rewards (see krolik's post on grants and loans and powerful interests) academia became Too Big to (fill in the blank). The inflated costs suggest a bubble that is bound to burst - especially in a permanently recessionary economy.
What comes next? That's always the question that interests me. Both at the personal and greater level.
>7 theoria:: Again, you're right to note that the binding legislation of the Educational Amendment Acts including Title IX has prescribed the response and responsibilities of the academic institutions in a manner that suggests (to me) over-reaction and rigidity.
>7 theoria:: A much simpler and less ideologically juicy explanation is available: large institutions behave badly to protect their interests. Bingo!
Perhaps, because of the combined effects of economic post-war prosperity and political and governmental rewards (see krolik's post on grants and loans and powerful interests) academia became Too Big to (fill in the blank). The inflated costs suggest a bubble that is bound to burst - especially in a permanently recessionary economy.
What comes next? That's always the question that interests me. Both at the personal and greater level.
9enevada
Entrepreneurs do indeed still exist and many of them are dropping out of college. Here's one: Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos
http://fortune.com/2014/06/12/theranos-blood-holmes/
from it: “This is about being able to do good,” Holmes says to me about her company. “And it’s about being able to change the health care system through what we believe this country does so well, which is innovation and creativity and the ability to conceive of technology that can help solve policy challenges.”
http://fortune.com/2014/06/12/theranos-blood-holmes/
from it: “This is about being able to do good,” Holmes says to me about her company. “And it’s about being able to change the health care system through what we believe this country does so well, which is innovation and creativity and the ability to conceive of technology that can help solve policy challenges.”
10DugsBooks
>9 enevada: I found that article incredibly interesting and used my lunch time reading it { I intended a quick scan}. Ms. Holmes has a great vision.
::edited for clarity::
::edited for clarity::
11enevada
>10 DugsBooks:. She's inspirational, certainly, a real catalyst and visionary. I also like the example of Theranos here in this thread because I think the research sectors in any field but esp. health care will stand to benefit the most in attracting these types of brilliant path-breakers.
12LolaWalser
>6 theoria:, >7 theoria:
Those who refused to wade in the muck salute you!
"Moronic" is too kind for that shock-jockeying hypocrite.
Those who refused to wade in the muck salute you!
"Moronic" is too kind for that shock-jockeying hypocrite.
13timspalding
"Moronic" is too kind for that shock-jockeying hypocrite.
The terms are actually very different. A mountain may be very very high, but that does not make it purple. A person may be a shock-jockeying hypocrite, but that does not make them a mental defective. Moron is not the worst at the end of the all-purpose contempt spectrum. It has an actual meaning.
I have no strong opinions on Ms. Paglia. It's been 20 years since I read Sexual Personae. But I have a feeling a Yale Ph.D with a long track-record of academic, if highly controversial, writing is not actually a moron.
The terms are actually very different. A mountain may be very very high, but that does not make it purple. A person may be a shock-jockeying hypocrite, but that does not make them a mental defective. Moron is not the worst at the end of the all-purpose contempt spectrum. It has an actual meaning.
I have no strong opinions on Ms. Paglia. It's been 20 years since I read Sexual Personae. But I have a feeling a Yale Ph.D with a long track-record of academic, if highly controversial, writing is not actually a moron.
14LolaWalser
>13 timspalding:
Oh, spare me your silly, unnecessary, mind-numbing pedantry. The piece linked in >1 enevada: is beyond moronic, if you want more precision.
I have no strong opinions on Ms. Paglia. It's been 20 years since I read Sexual Personae. But I have a feeling a Yale Ph.D with a long track-record of academic, if highly controversial, writing is not actually a moron.
No, SHE is much worse than a moron. A Yale PhD makes you wet, does it? If only they didn't count Dubya among the alumni.
Oh, spare me your silly, unnecessary, mind-numbing pedantry. The piece linked in >1 enevada: is beyond moronic, if you want more precision.
I have no strong opinions on Ms. Paglia. It's been 20 years since I read Sexual Personae. But I have a feeling a Yale Ph.D with a long track-record of academic, if highly controversial, writing is not actually a moron.
No, SHE is much worse than a moron. A Yale PhD makes you wet, does it? If only they didn't count Dubya among the alumni.
15timspalding
No, I don't want more precision. I'd like you to recognize the difference between contempt and mis-assesment. I disagree with you; I don't think that makes you a slime mold. Confusing disagreement—even hatred—with other categories is pure Conservative punditry.
No, SHE is much worse than a moron.
Right. Because "moron" has no meaning other than contempt. Somewhere past "moron" lives what—giving up on words and just spitting?
No, SHE is much worse than a moron.
Right. Because "moron" has no meaning other than contempt. Somewhere past "moron" lives what—giving up on words and just spitting?
16jjwilson61
>15 timspalding: Like imbecile, moron has lost its techinical definition and is these days just a term of abuse.
17LolaWalser 
>15 timspalding:
I disagree with you; I don't think that makes you a slime mold.
How very, very grand of you indeed. How about you fuck off with telling me what you'd like me to do or not do, or what rubbish you're refraining from calling me? Would you like a list of things I'm refraining from calling you right now?
As for Paglia (whom I've met) I give as much shit about her academic work as she does about women, or about the opinion of actually thinking people who might come across her scum-journalism bilge such as in >1 enevada: before any of her "serious" work.
Is 'Sexual Personae' where that muff-diver drops on her knees to the Phallus, stooping to vomit about the ugliness and unsightliness of the female genitals?
Truly a rare piece of academic achievement, personal sincerity and moral courage.
And idiocy. Let's not forget the idiocy.
I disagree with you; I don't think that makes you a slime mold.
How very, very grand of you indeed. How about you fuck off with telling me what you'd like me to do or not do, or what rubbish you're refraining from calling me? Would you like a list of things I'm refraining from calling you right now?
As for Paglia (whom I've met) I give as much shit about her academic work as she does about women, or about the opinion of actually thinking people who might come across her scum-journalism bilge such as in >1 enevada: before any of her "serious" work.
Is 'Sexual Personae' where that muff-diver drops on her knees to the Phallus, stooping to vomit about the ugliness and unsightliness of the female genitals?
Truly a rare piece of academic achievement, personal sincerity and moral courage.
And idiocy. Let's not forget the idiocy.
18Michael_Welch
College students are not always "adults" and sometimes yes they "act like children" -- so Mama and Papa must "scold"...
19weener
The article linked to in the first post is beyond stupid, and takes a very narrow and unrealistic view of what rape is. Rape, on and off college campuses, isn't always some psycho jumping out of the bushes with a knife to desecrate a girl in a skimpy outfit. Here's a sampling of what some survivors were wearing when they were assaulted. Spoiler alert: they weren't prancing around drunk in miniskirts and halter tops.
I don't think that having rules about consent is "infantilizing" college students. That stuff is important and even plenty of experienced adults need guidelines when it comes to that. You want to talk about failing to prepare college students for adult life, I'm more worried about the dormitory cleaning and laundry service that my college started offering 10 or so years ago.
I don't think that having rules about consent is "infantilizing" college students. That stuff is important and even plenty of experienced adults need guidelines when it comes to that. You want to talk about failing to prepare college students for adult life, I'm more worried about the dormitory cleaning and laundry service that my college started offering 10 or so years ago.
20Michael_Welch
There are "rules" everywhere in "life" -- I agree with the above. Sometimes yes Mama and Papa must "spank" too -- metaphorically speaking of course!...
21RickHarsch
Isn't there some way to vote against a flag? I think 17 is careful enough with the continuation after fuck off that it remains undeserving of flagging. But in looking for a way to vote I may have inadvertantly flag, which is why I'm not just keeping my mouth shut on this one, which I don't care much about, though since I'm in this far, I find the pedantry over 'moronic' annoying, too.
22jjwilson61
>21 RickHarsch: Isn't there some way to vote against a flag?
It's counter-intuitive, but click on More under the message and then click on the Flag option. This will then give you the option to either flag or counter-flag.
It's counter-intuitive, but click on More under the message and then click on the Flag option. This will then give you the option to either flag or counter-flag.
23nathanielcampbell
So I finally read the article in the OP, and I have to say that it is not particularly well-written or organized -- it jumps from topic to topic without making a sustained argument; and it veers at places into the very abusive hyperbole that it seems to decry, when practiced by those on the other side of the spectrum.
That said, there is one nugget that I think is worthy of attention:
And although Paglia refuses to acknowledge the real prevalence of sexual violence on college campuses not just in its tabloid manifestation but in the more "ordinary" places of the hook-up culture, she is at least gesturing in the direction of something that does need to be addressed: the hook-up culture as currently practiced does make the line between consent and assault perilously thin and blurry.
But others have done a better job articulating this point. I've mentioned before Ross Douthat's column from June, which is lucid and indicting: www.nytimes.com/2014/06/29/opinion/sunday/ross-douthat-stopping-campus-rape.html
Another one that came up recently was from The Guardian: Frat brothers rape 300% more. One in 5 women is sexually assaulted on campus. Should we ban frats?:
That said, there is one nugget that I think is worthy of attention:
"Real crimes should be reported to the police, not to haphazard and ill-trained campus grievance committees."This gets to the heart of the problem with current campus approaches to sexual assault. Grievance committees and disciplinary boards originally designed to deal with cases of academic dishonesty or violation of other moral codes are ill-equipped to handle crimes. They just end up making a mess of it, and do injustice to both victims--who are all too often ignored--and the accused--who have none of the legal protections offered to the accused by the justice system.
And although Paglia refuses to acknowledge the real prevalence of sexual violence on college campuses not just in its tabloid manifestation but in the more "ordinary" places of the hook-up culture, she is at least gesturing in the direction of something that does need to be addressed: the hook-up culture as currently practiced does make the line between consent and assault perilously thin and blurry.
But others have done a better job articulating this point. I've mentioned before Ross Douthat's column from June, which is lucid and indicting: www.nytimes.com/2014/06/29/opinion/sunday/ross-douthat-stopping-campus-rape.html
Another one that came up recently was from The Guardian: Frat brothers rape 300% more. One in 5 women is sexually assaulted on campus. Should we ban frats?:
These are not anomalies or bad apples: numerous studies have found that men who join fraternities are three times more likely to rape, that women in sororities are 74% more likely to experience rape than other college women, and that one in five women will be sexually assaulted in four years away at school. So it seems only natural to ask: With all of the current efforts, from the White House to college towns, to curb campus sexual assault – using “yes means yes” as a standard for consent, holding administrators accountable, touting bystander intervention – why haven’t we addressed perhaps the most obvious solution?
It’s time to talk about banning fraternities.
When sociology professors Elizabeth Armstrong and Laura Hamilton conducted an intensive, landmark five-year study on college students – by living amongst, following around and interviewing students in one dorm at an anonymous Midwestern public university – they reported that two women living on their floor were sexually assaulted at fraternity parties within the first few weeks of the semester.
Armstrong, who turned the results of the study into a well-received bestseller about college inequality and a paper on sexual assault, tells me that while anti-sexual violence programs are doing all the right things, they may not be doing enough.
“I was just at University of Massachusetts and at Wesleyan, and they were talking about bystander intervention programs and that’s great – people should try to engage,” she said. “But what it leaves off the table are the organizations that put people at risk on campus.”
(...)
For Wesleyan – home of the “rape factory” frat – school administrators decided that means mandating that women be admitted to fraternities. The school announced this week that all frats must go co-ed within the next three years. While I applaud what seems a theoretical move towards equality, I don’t much like the idea of women as a “civilizing” force for men’s bad behavior.
Why try to fix something that’s irrevocably broken? Better, instead, that we take an honest look at the statistics and stories coming out of colleges and act accordingly. I realize banning frats is likely a pipe dream – the organizations are deeply embedded in college culture, they generate student programming and are supported by powerful alumni. But if we’re ready to take on college administrators, sue under Title IX, or carry mattresses on our back in protest, why not this? Why not now?
24jjwilson61
If a high school student told their guidance counselor that she (or he) had been raped, then isn't that school official required to report it to the police? Why should it be any different for colleges? In fact if the colleges don't report it to the police aren't they guilty of covering up a crime?
25RickHarsch
(Thanks. I guess I hit it and didn't see or didn't click it hard enough.)
26IreneF
My experiences of university life were quite different, but I attended college in the 1970s, and my school was deliberately somewhat countercultural. I was not bored, and I was exposed to new people and new ideas. That was when we had this thing called "affirmative action" and the state paid tuition.
On the other hand, my kids are living at home and attending commuter schools. This is probably closer to the experience of most college students and it's pretty far from the ivory tower.
Where is Nathaniel? Did he go underground or what? I think he might have some knowledgeable comments.
ETA: Whoops! There you are. Blame cognitive dysfunction.
On the other hand, my kids are living at home and attending commuter schools. This is probably closer to the experience of most college students and it's pretty far from the ivory tower.
Where is Nathaniel? Did he go underground or what? I think he might have some knowledgeable comments.
ETA: Whoops! There you are. Blame cognitive dysfunction.
27LolaWalser
Thanks Rick and any other counter-flaggers. I won't comment on what sort of thing gets flagged on this forum and what passes, in the same spirit in which I was NOT called "slime mold".
>23 nathanielcampbell:
the hook-up culture as currently practiced does make the line between consent and assault perilously thin and blurry.
Could you elaborate? I'm assuming you're against "hook-up culture" (and the term itself isn't, I think, neutral to begin with), so I don't see what difference how it's being "practised", currently or at any other time in any other fashion, could make to your opinion.
From the article you link:
It’s time to talk about banning fraternities.
Speaking as a non-American who taught a spell (as a TA) on a classic American-type "campus": yes, probably. And sororities too. These things, fostering "old boys" mentality and networks, are good for the members but toxic for the society.
But--and I'm getting here on a hobbyhorse--I think the problem begins with the "campus". There are "university towns" in Europe, but these are still towns, with a majority "regular" population, and many more universities blending in the urban matrix and participating in the life of the entire population. Whereas an American college campus is frequently, or even usually, an island unto itself, with a strong sense of being an artificial, hothouse environment with different rules to that of the "real world", like a prison.
That encourages childishness and irresponsibility of every kind, IMO.
And what of the intertwining of American education and sports--beginning at a high school level?
So, you create a hothouse bubble in which immature people are for the first time in their lives exposed to crowds--a smorgasbord, in a sense--and within that bubble there exists a population of idolised brute-like creatures who "own" the place.
Does not seem like a good set up.
>23 nathanielcampbell:
the hook-up culture as currently practiced does make the line between consent and assault perilously thin and blurry.
Could you elaborate? I'm assuming you're against "hook-up culture" (and the term itself isn't, I think, neutral to begin with), so I don't see what difference how it's being "practised", currently or at any other time in any other fashion, could make to your opinion.
From the article you link:
It’s time to talk about banning fraternities.
Speaking as a non-American who taught a spell (as a TA) on a classic American-type "campus": yes, probably. And sororities too. These things, fostering "old boys" mentality and networks, are good for the members but toxic for the society.
But--and I'm getting here on a hobbyhorse--I think the problem begins with the "campus". There are "university towns" in Europe, but these are still towns, with a majority "regular" population, and many more universities blending in the urban matrix and participating in the life of the entire population. Whereas an American college campus is frequently, or even usually, an island unto itself, with a strong sense of being an artificial, hothouse environment with different rules to that of the "real world", like a prison.
That encourages childishness and irresponsibility of every kind, IMO.
And what of the intertwining of American education and sports--beginning at a high school level?
So, you create a hothouse bubble in which immature people are for the first time in their lives exposed to crowds--a smorgasbord, in a sense--and within that bubble there exists a population of idolised brute-like creatures who "own" the place.
Does not seem like a good set up.
28IreneF
The campus where I was an undergraduate was on the grounds of an old ranch, and bordered by a state park. In other words, idyllic.
We had no frats and no sports teams.
The downside was the ivory tower, privileged atmosphere. Even though Affirmative Action tried to equalize educational opportunities, it was still an elite campus in an elite system.
Rapes happened. I'm not sure how many of the perpetrators were students, and how many were outsiders who were attracted by the easy access to both women and hiding places (the woods). It was also a period when sexual assault was not reported or covered up more than today. However, I think the lack of college sport and frats helped defuse the kind of male bonding that feeds violence.
We had no frats and no sports teams.
The downside was the ivory tower, privileged atmosphere. Even though Affirmative Action tried to equalize educational opportunities, it was still an elite campus in an elite system.
Rapes happened. I'm not sure how many of the perpetrators were students, and how many were outsiders who were attracted by the easy access to both women and hiding places (the woods). It was also a period when sexual assault was not reported or covered up more than today. However, I think the lack of college sport and frats helped defuse the kind of male bonding that feeds violence.
29theoria
>27 LolaWalser: One might suspect that the vices of "hook up culture" are intimately connect to masculine domination, which privileges "male" pleasure and denigrates "female" desire.
30LolaWalser
>29 theoria:
Well, I don't know, I thought it just meant no-strings-attached attitude to sex. Why would that denigrate female desire?
>28 IreneF:
I'm curious now how American enclosed campuses compare in this regard to places such as the NYU in Manhattan, for instance.
Well, I don't know, I thought it just meant no-strings-attached attitude to sex. Why would that denigrate female desire?
>28 IreneF:
I'm curious now how American enclosed campuses compare in this regard to places such as the NYU in Manhattan, for instance.
31IreneF
>30 LolaWalser:
I don't know. I live in San Francisco and the college campuses are smallish and have a lot of commuters. They big exception is UCSF, which backs on to open space, but is also only for health sciences--medicine, pharmacy, nursing, and dentistry.
The University of Maryland, College Park, where I finished grad school, was much more of the traditional university. Huge campus, brick buildings, manicured lawns, etc. Since I was an older student with school-age kids, I didn't do much beyond go to classes.
I've never experienced a school with restricted access, if that's what you mean.
I don't know. I live in San Francisco and the college campuses are smallish and have a lot of commuters. They big exception is UCSF, which backs on to open space, but is also only for health sciences--medicine, pharmacy, nursing, and dentistry.
The University of Maryland, College Park, where I finished grad school, was much more of the traditional university. Huge campus, brick buildings, manicured lawns, etc. Since I was an older student with school-age kids, I didn't do much beyond go to classes.
I've never experienced a school with restricted access, if that's what you mean.
32nathanielcampbell
>30 LolaWalser: "Well, I don't know, I thought it just meant no-strings-attached attitude to sex."
It's that the college environment in which such a no-stings-attached attitude is practiced is intimately intertwined with the college environment of getting drunk. Most "hook-ups" occur in the presence of intoxication, which is where the line between consent and assault becomes perilously thin and blurred.
It's that the college environment in which such a no-stings-attached attitude is practiced is intimately intertwined with the college environment of getting drunk. Most "hook-ups" occur in the presence of intoxication, which is where the line between consent and assault becomes perilously thin and blurred.
33Helcura
Alcohol and sports are primary contributors to the problem, without a doubt. Consequences for irresponsibly providing alcohol on campuses (fraternities and such) are far lower than even your worst bar, where the bartender better get your keys before serving you the next drink if you're visibly impaired. Consequences for sports figures are also low to nil for all bad behavior from violence, to cheating to rape.
Any campus with on-site housing is going to be a community within a community and is going to require both good self-policing and requirements that its members follow the laws of the community within which the college resides. A lot of college campuses aren't too good at either and haven't been for a very long time.
I recall my father telling me a story of how a girl at my college talked her way out of getting raped in the 1950s, 30 years later I used the same technique at the same college. We were both lucky. Too many others weren't and aren't.
Any campus with on-site housing is going to be a community within a community and is going to require both good self-policing and requirements that its members follow the laws of the community within which the college resides. A lot of college campuses aren't too good at either and haven't been for a very long time.
I recall my father telling me a story of how a girl at my college talked her way out of getting raped in the 1950s, 30 years later I used the same technique at the same college. We were both lucky. Too many others weren't and aren't.
34IreneF
College sports puts the colleges into positions of self-conflict that they can't easily escape. They bring in money and recognition, yet some (many?) of the players wouldn't be college material without some rule-bending. We saw how effective self-policing was at Penn State with Jerry Sandusky, who was raping boys for years because he could get away with it.
Opposing college sports teams is like stamping your forehead with the word "Anti-American."
Opposing college sports teams is like stamping your forehead with the word "Anti-American."
35RickHarsch
>32 nathanielcampbell: Alcohol isn't responsible for sexual assault. And I would argue that there is no such thing as a 'no-strings-attached attitutde practiced'. Certainly when I was in university in the pre-HIV late '70s at a school in a river town known for its incredible number of bars there was a lot of drinking and a lot of student sex without attachments formed; but the picture you may form in your mind of perpetual orgy is likely far from what really was going on. Women said yes or no, and if they said no, a man moved on to the next one--or, as I often was, he was in the library that weekend. When I was drunk, I often sought sex, and I more often than not failed to find it. Decency reigned, hangovers prevailed.
Probably during those years a large number of assaults took place, but I rather doubt that the women were oblivious to abuse. But the cause, the permissiveness, was within the men who assaulted, not in the wilder environment (you can hardly claim that without blaming the women assaulted in some part). There was though, as far as I know, no place on campus to take the problem, and there should have been, and it should have been linked to the police of the town.
At the same time, both at that school and later at the University of Wisconsin, there were always rumors of rape or rapists (serial) on campus, and there was the belief that the schools did their utmost to keep the crimes out of the newspapers. This was probably true, don't you think?
Addendum: In those rather freewheeling days there were also gay bars, but it appears people were happy enough to have so many bars to choose from that there was never much attention drawn to the gay bars outside the gay communities (a dance bar for the young and/or wilder, a piano bar for the quieter set). Probably there was an occasional beating I didn't hear of, but, again, alcohol would not have been responsible, rather a pre-existing attitude, a different kind of permissiveness.
Probably during those years a large number of assaults took place, but I rather doubt that the women were oblivious to abuse. But the cause, the permissiveness, was within the men who assaulted, not in the wilder environment (you can hardly claim that without blaming the women assaulted in some part). There was though, as far as I know, no place on campus to take the problem, and there should have been, and it should have been linked to the police of the town.
At the same time, both at that school and later at the University of Wisconsin, there were always rumors of rape or rapists (serial) on campus, and there was the belief that the schools did their utmost to keep the crimes out of the newspapers. This was probably true, don't you think?
Addendum: In those rather freewheeling days there were also gay bars, but it appears people were happy enough to have so many bars to choose from that there was never much attention drawn to the gay bars outside the gay communities (a dance bar for the young and/or wilder, a piano bar for the quieter set). Probably there was an occasional beating I didn't hear of, but, again, alcohol would not have been responsible, rather a pre-existing attitude, a different kind of permissiveness.
36RickHarsch
Here, for those of you who like simplistic solutions, who would take alcohol away from women, perhaps, too, they can be tossed into jail:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/01/women-in-prison-prisoner-population-us-...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/01/women-in-prison-prisoner-population-us-...
37nathanielcampbell
I suspect that on issues of campus sexual assault, over drinking, and a heinous infatuation with sports, we have found an area in which those of us (Helcura, Lola, me, and perhaps some others) who are usually found on different parts of the spectrum are now in generally common agreement.
I'll leave it at that, because if I let myself actually commence on a rant about the corruption that the idolatry of sports has brought to the heart of higher education, I'll be typing well into the afternoon!
I'll leave it at that, because if I let myself actually commence on a rant about the corruption that the idolatry of sports has brought to the heart of higher education, I'll be typing well into the afternoon!
38BruceCoulson
The whole issue of how much 'control' or 'enforcement' should exist on college campuses is being covered by several legal blawgs (Simple Justice, Popehat, etc.).
Basically, the pendulum is swinging the other way, hard and fast, and is probably going to be just as unfair as it was before, but for different people.
re: Alcohol is consumed by both sexes. Impaired judgement leads to poor decisions, often regretted when sober. Should the man be held solely responsible for a decision initially made by both parties? Saying 'she didn't know what she was doing' while ignoring 'he wasn't fully functional either' is just as bad in the long run as pressuring a woman to not press charges because 'he's got a whole athletic career' (and money-making potential for our school).
Basically, the pendulum is swinging the other way, hard and fast, and is probably going to be just as unfair as it was before, but for different people.
re: Alcohol is consumed by both sexes. Impaired judgement leads to poor decisions, often regretted when sober. Should the man be held solely responsible for a decision initially made by both parties? Saying 'she didn't know what she was doing' while ignoring 'he wasn't fully functional either' is just as bad in the long run as pressuring a woman to not press charges because 'he's got a whole athletic career' (and money-making potential for our school).
39mikevail
>37 nathanielcampbell: "corruption that the idolatry of sports money has brought to the heart of higher education" I thought a slight alteration might better capture your intent. If college ballet had a national TV audience, Professors of Dance with seven figure salaries would be getting sanctioned for recruiting violations.
40nathanielcampbell
>39 mikevail: Good point.
41overlycriticalme
>24 jjwilson61:
If a high school student told their guidance counselor that she (or he) had been raped, then isn't that school official required to report it to the police? Why should it be any different for colleges?
mandatory reporting laws do cover this for a high school student, but it's because s/he is under 18. once someone isn't a minor anymore, there aren't any laws requiring the reporting of a crime.
eta: until they reach the age of 65, or if they are mentally disabled
If a high school student told their guidance counselor that she (or he) had been raped, then isn't that school official required to report it to the police? Why should it be any different for colleges?
mandatory reporting laws do cover this for a high school student, but it's because s/he is under 18. once someone isn't a minor anymore, there aren't any laws requiring the reporting of a crime.
eta: until they reach the age of 65, or if they are mentally disabled
42overlycriticalme
>31 IreneF:
(i went to umd, college park, for undergrad. huge indeed. to keep this in the frat conversation, umd's frat row is where they filmed part of st elmo's fire.)
(i went to umd, college park, for undergrad. huge indeed. to keep this in the frat conversation, umd's frat row is where they filmed part of st elmo's fire.)
43southernbooklady
>41 overlycriticalme: once someone isn't a minor anymore, there aren't any laws requiring the reporting of a crime.
Aren't medical professionals required to report some things that often go along with rape? Especially anything that might constitute a danger to health, like certain STDs? And don't hospitals have to report certain kinds of trauma, like gunshot wounds or knife wounds? Wouldn't that apply to college infirmaries?
Aren't medical professionals required to report some things that often go along with rape? Especially anything that might constitute a danger to health, like certain STDs? And don't hospitals have to report certain kinds of trauma, like gunshot wounds or knife wounds? Wouldn't that apply to college infirmaries?
44overlycriticalme
>43 southernbooklady:
sorry, i should have specified "crime of sexual violence." i don't have any idea about the rules governing reporting of gunshot wounds or anything like that, just rape and sexual assault.
i think (but am not sure) that as far as reporting sexually transmitted infections, that they do that without linking the data to a person, so it remains anonymous and is more statistical information.
sorry, i should have specified "crime of sexual violence." i don't have any idea about the rules governing reporting of gunshot wounds or anything like that, just rape and sexual assault.
i think (but am not sure) that as far as reporting sexually transmitted infections, that they do that without linking the data to a person, so it remains anonymous and is more statistical information.
45margd
> 1 extremely expensive day care
Small rant: Following four accomplished young men--my son had math & sci associate's degree upon high school graduation--studying in our state's top two engineering universities, I am rather disturbed by the poor instruction (albeit as reported by said young men). I understand that these wouldbe engineers are supposed to be learning how to solve problems, but in more classes than not they are given inadequate lectures, tests that at least half fail, and few resources (few clinics & tutors, no textbooks) to figure it out for themselves. Oh, and there's corruption among the Chinese international students, the kids say. (Corroborated by a Chinese-American TA.) One pays all this money for this? We're short of STEM graduates and universities seem to be happy to drive them away--or maybe allow them to graduate after they spend no less than five years paying for this nonsense. End of rant.
Small rant: Following four accomplished young men--my son had math & sci associate's degree upon high school graduation--studying in our state's top two engineering universities, I am rather disturbed by the poor instruction (albeit as reported by said young men). I understand that these wouldbe engineers are supposed to be learning how to solve problems, but in more classes than not they are given inadequate lectures, tests that at least half fail, and few resources (few clinics & tutors, no textbooks) to figure it out for themselves. Oh, and there's corruption among the Chinese international students, the kids say. (Corroborated by a Chinese-American TA.) One pays all this money for this? We're short of STEM graduates and universities seem to be happy to drive them away--or maybe allow them to graduate after they spend no less than five years paying for this nonsense. End of rant.
46IreneF
>45 margd:
Some of these profs are perhaps not very good verbally, and were hired on the basis of skills that had nothing to to with communicating to others. The fact that half the students are failing could actually mean that the teachers are failing to teach, or it could mean that many of the students are there to pass and not to learn, which demoralizes the profs.
My daughter told me her classes at the local 2- year college were more rigorous than at the university she transferred to.
Some of these profs are perhaps not very good verbally, and were hired on the basis of skills that had nothing to to with communicating to others. The fact that half the students are failing could actually mean that the teachers are failing to teach, or it could mean that many of the students are there to pass and not to learn, which demoralizes the profs.
My daughter told me her classes at the local 2- year college were more rigorous than at the university she transferred to.
