THE DEEP ONES: "Than Curse the Darkness" by David Drake
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1gwendetenebre
"Than Curse the Darkness" by David Drake
Discussion begins November 19.
First published in New Tales of the Cthulhu Mythos (1980).
ONLINE VERSIONS
http://hell.pl/szymon/Baen/When%20the%20Tide%20Rises/Balefires/Balefires.htm
BIBLIOGRAPHY
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?94004
SELECTED PRINT VERSIONS
New Tales of the Cthulhu Mythos
From the Heart of Darkness
Night & Demons
MISCELLANY
http://david-drake.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Drake
http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/drake_interview/
http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/wellman_interview/
http://baen.com/Interviews/vintDDrake.asp
http://tinyurl.com/qjpon32
Discussion begins November 19.
First published in New Tales of the Cthulhu Mythos (1980).
ONLINE VERSIONS
http://hell.pl/szymon/Baen/When%20the%20Tide%20Rises/Balefires/Balefires.htm
BIBLIOGRAPHY
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?94004
SELECTED PRINT VERSIONS
New Tales of the Cthulhu Mythos
From the Heart of Darkness
Night & Demons
MISCELLANY
http://david-drake.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Drake
http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/drake_interview/
http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/wellman_interview/
http://baen.com/Interviews/vintDDrake.asp
http://tinyurl.com/qjpon32
2gwendetenebre
That cover is getting to be pretty familiar around here. Still, it'll be From the Heart of Darkness for me.
3artturnerjr
Read this last night out of The Book of Cthulhu.
A little historical context for the tale. Quite a horror story in itself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Free_State#Humanitarian_disaster
A little historical context for the tale. Quite a horror story in itself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Free_State#Humanitarian_disaster
4elenchus
>3 artturnerjr:
Hothschild's book is harrowing reading, to be sure. It's an interesting distinction between genocide and a forced system of labour having much the same result. I think I lean toward counting the latter as genocide, it's scarcely believable that the outcome was unknown or obscure, and in such a case there's little moral distinction of culpability between conducting oneself with willful intent versus with flagrant disregard.
I have to say, though, I've not yet read the Drake story, so perhaps I'd best not have commented. Alas, I've already licked the envelope, so I'll leave it in.
Hothschild's book is harrowing reading, to be sure. It's an interesting distinction between genocide and a forced system of labour having much the same result. I think I lean toward counting the latter as genocide, it's scarcely believable that the outcome was unknown or obscure, and in such a case there's little moral distinction of culpability between conducting oneself with willful intent versus with flagrant disregard.
I have to say, though, I've not yet read the Drake story, so perhaps I'd best not have commented. Alas, I've already licked the envelope, so I'll leave it in.
5RandyStafford
Night & Demons for me.
6artturnerjr
>4 elenchus:
I knew a little bit about this from reading (and reading about) Heart of Darkness, but had no idea about the extent of the atrocities there until reading the Wikipedia article I linked to above. And to think that Leopold presented his mission there as philanthropic! Astonishing.
***
Looked It Up So You Don't Have To Dept.: The story's epigraph is from a letter Lovecraft wrote to J. Vernon Shea on 2/4/34
I knew a little bit about this from reading (and reading about) Heart of Darkness, but had no idea about the extent of the atrocities there until reading the Wikipedia article I linked to above. And to think that Leopold presented his mission there as philanthropic! Astonishing.
***
Looked It Up So You Don't Have To Dept.: The story's epigraph is from a letter Lovecraft wrote to J. Vernon Shea on 2/4/34
7AndreasJ
The standard account of the abuses of the Congo Free State would be King Leopold's Ghost.
8RandyStafford
The Edgar Rice Burroughs fan in the house is checking to see which Tarzan adventure touches on the Congo Free State.
9RandyStafford
"The arch hypocrite Leopold" is, in fact, mentioned in Tarzan of the Apes -- an example of how topical Burroughs could be at times.
10artturnerjr
>9 RandyStafford:
Ha! That's fantastic. I'm sure I flew right past that when I read it. Arthur Conan Doyle apparently wrote about the Congo Free State, too (in a book called The Crime of the Congo).
ETA: Corrected ambiguous antecedent
Ha! That's fantastic. I'm sure I flew right past that when I read it. Arthur Conan Doyle apparently wrote about the Congo Free State, too (in a book called The Crime of the Congo).
ETA: Corrected ambiguous antecedent
11gwendetenebre
Thanks to all who provided background details for this week's story. Harrowing, to say the least.
12paradoxosalpha
I've already had a good dose of colonial atrocity reading this year, in the form of All Souls' Rising. Given the astonishingly high slave casualty rates in Saint-Domingue (pre-revolutionary Haiti), the Belgian Congo may not have been much worse. (And there's no Yog-Sothothery in Bell's novel, but he certainly addresses the uncanny aspects of the voudon ingredient in the slave revolts.)
13paradoxosalpha
There was something sort of cinematic about this one, the way that it jumped between short views of different locations in the first part, and the way that the second part ramped up to spectacular violence.
14gwendetenebre
I was really drawn into the setting and I appreciated the fact that Drake seems to have striven for a realistic, no-holds-barred portrayal of a reprehensible situation. The violence depicted here is ugly, but it is in service to the overall arc of the plot. I really enjoy Lovecraftian tales that take place in historical settings. This one is top-notch.
The "What of unknown Africa" quote from HPL at the beginning is a perfect choice. What, indeed, would HPL have thought of this story?
I wish there were more Dame Alice tales. She's an intriguing heroine, despite her somewhat limited space in this one.
The "What of unknown Africa" quote from HPL at the beginning is a perfect choice. What, indeed, would HPL have thought of this story?
I wish there were more Dame Alice tales. She's an intriguing heroine, despite her somewhat limited space in this one.
15paradoxosalpha
>14 gwendetenebre:
Drake did seem to invest more in the Dame Alice character than the story could support.
The point of the story (going off the author's notes prefacing the web version) seems to be to juxtapose the "natural evil" of Nyarlathotep with the "moral evil" of the colonists and their native agents, thus accounting for why one might choose the former over the latter.
Drake did seem to invest more in the Dame Alice character than the story could support.
The point of the story (going off the author's notes prefacing the web version) seems to be to juxtapose the "natural evil" of Nyarlathotep with the "moral evil" of the colonists and their native agents, thus accounting for why one might choose the former over the latter.
16gwendetenebre
>15 paradoxosalpha:
As you note, Drake says, "Something that'd always puzzled me about the Mythos is why the Great Old Ones had human minions, since it was explicitly stated that if the Great Old Ones returned to Earth they would blast away all present life. Why would humans serve something that in human terms was absolute evil?"
A very good question chillinglyanswered posed in the last few lines:
"But without the ones who worshipped it," Dame Alice went on, "without the ones who drew the kernel up to a growth that would have been . . . the end of Man, the end of Life here in any sense you or I—or those out there—would have recognized it. . . . It'll be more than our lifetimes before Ahtu returns. I wonder why those ones gave themselves so wholly to an evil that would have destroyed them first?"
Sparrow giggled again. Dame Alice turned from the approaching Belgian to see if the source of the humor showed on the gunman's face.
"It's like this," Sparrow said. "If they was evil, I guess that makes us good. I'd never thought of that before, is all."
He continued to giggle. The laughter of the Baengas echoed him from the clearing as they thrust the child down on a rough spit. Their teeth had been filed to points which the moonlight turned to jewels.
Drake surely succeeds with that cooly ironic statement. And what a disturbing image to end with!
ETA
I guess that "good" observation applies more to our unlikely crew of world-savers. It still doesn't answer why the Old Ones have human minions, does it?
As you note, Drake says, "Something that'd always puzzled me about the Mythos is why the Great Old Ones had human minions, since it was explicitly stated that if the Great Old Ones returned to Earth they would blast away all present life. Why would humans serve something that in human terms was absolute evil?"
A very good question chillingly
"But without the ones who worshipped it," Dame Alice went on, "without the ones who drew the kernel up to a growth that would have been . . . the end of Man, the end of Life here in any sense you or I—or those out there—would have recognized it. . . . It'll be more than our lifetimes before Ahtu returns. I wonder why those ones gave themselves so wholly to an evil that would have destroyed them first?"
Sparrow giggled again. Dame Alice turned from the approaching Belgian to see if the source of the humor showed on the gunman's face.
"It's like this," Sparrow said. "If they was evil, I guess that makes us good. I'd never thought of that before, is all."
He continued to giggle. The laughter of the Baengas echoed him from the clearing as they thrust the child down on a rough spit. Their teeth had been filed to points which the moonlight turned to jewels.
Drake surely succeeds with that cooly ironic statement. And what a disturbing image to end with!
ETA
I guess that "good" observation applies more to our unlikely crew of world-savers. It still doesn't answer why the Old Ones have human minions, does it?
17RandyStafford
I really liked this grim tale. And any story where the "happy" ending involves cannibals eating a child is pretty grim.
It had four points of interest for me.
First, I liked how the opening examples of atrocities committed on the Africans and white traders just seemed like mere atmosphere building, the establishment of a scene. Later, though, they turn out to be crucial to the plot in strengthening Ahtu.
Second, I liked that Drake didn't in any sense try to imitate Lovecraft's style. I thought his depiction of Ahtu was an innovative departure from how Lovecraftian monsters are usually depicted. I particularly like Dame Alice's metaphor comparing Ahtu to a fungus that infects a piece of wood, assumes its shape, and replaces it.
Third, I thought in interesting that Dame Alice doesn't really comment on any of the human horrors she is immersed in. She is, after all, rubbing shoulders with all the human monsters we see in the early scenes of the story. She's either very naïve or, I think more probable, entirely focused on defeating evil of a non-human nature.
Fourth, I liked Sparrow's grim remark about how surprised he is that he's one of the good guys in this case. That irony, of course, is also heightened by the title. You are in a bad spot if allying with King Leopold's agents represents your sole option.
I read this out of Night & Demons. In his notes, Drake mentions that his friend Manly Wade Wellman was born in Africa and had an extensive collection of books on it. Drake says he consulted them because they showed what people of the time thought about the Congo Free State.
>14 gwendetenebre: I've got a soft spot for Lovecraftian stories set in different parts of history too. You might want to check out Historical Lovecraft which has some good stories.
It had four points of interest for me.
First, I liked how the opening examples of atrocities committed on the Africans and white traders just seemed like mere atmosphere building, the establishment of a scene. Later, though, they turn out to be crucial to the plot in strengthening Ahtu.
Second, I liked that Drake didn't in any sense try to imitate Lovecraft's style. I thought his depiction of Ahtu was an innovative departure from how Lovecraftian monsters are usually depicted. I particularly like Dame Alice's metaphor comparing Ahtu to a fungus that infects a piece of wood, assumes its shape, and replaces it.
Third, I thought in interesting that Dame Alice doesn't really comment on any of the human horrors she is immersed in. She is, after all, rubbing shoulders with all the human monsters we see in the early scenes of the story. She's either very naïve or, I think more probable, entirely focused on defeating evil of a non-human nature.
Fourth, I liked Sparrow's grim remark about how surprised he is that he's one of the good guys in this case. That irony, of course, is also heightened by the title. You are in a bad spot if allying with King Leopold's agents represents your sole option.
I read this out of Night & Demons. In his notes, Drake mentions that his friend Manly Wade Wellman was born in Africa and had an extensive collection of books on it. Drake says he consulted them because they showed what people of the time thought about the Congo Free State.
>14 gwendetenebre: I've got a soft spot for Lovecraftian stories set in different parts of history too. You might want to check out Historical Lovecraft which has some good stories.
18elenchus
If "Hell is other people", or perhaps more precisely, "the Other", it appears Drake is positing that we all have a choice of Hell, and the worshipers chose a different one than that selected by Dame Alice.
Another irony is the self-empowerment implied by a choice for Ahtu over the colonial powers. It's quite realistic in context: maybe the ultimate end is the same (death), but in the one scenario the worshipers have a level of efficacy, they strive for an authentic life, that is denied them under Belgian rule. Of course, it may also be motivated by short-term versus long-term considerations.
All of this turns the Old Ones from a prospect of cosmic horror, to one of natural and even moral death, in opposition to the evil and man-made death of genocide. Very interesting re-visioning of HPL.
Another irony is the self-empowerment implied by a choice for Ahtu over the colonial powers. It's quite realistic in context: maybe the ultimate end is the same (death), but in the one scenario the worshipers have a level of efficacy, they strive for an authentic life, that is denied them under Belgian rule. Of course, it may also be motivated by short-term versus long-term considerations.
All of this turns the Old Ones from a prospect of cosmic horror, to one of natural and even moral death, in opposition to the evil and man-made death of genocide. Very interesting re-visioning of HPL.
19artturnerjr
I thought this was a good tale. Quite an original idea; I don't know that I've read another Mythos story that is quite like it. I know David Drake's work primarily from the lengthy science fiction and fantasy series that I see with his byline on them at bookstores; previous to reading this, I was only vaguely aware that he had anything to do with weird/Mythos fiction. I would certainly like to see more work by him in this genre, though.
>16 gwendetenebre:
It still doesn't answer why the Old Ones have human minions, does it?
It's a little like FDR and Churchill allying themselves with Stalin in World War II, isn't it? Sometimes you hate your enemy so much, you don't care who you make a deal with as long as they might help you beat them.
>16 gwendetenebre:
It still doesn't answer why the Old Ones have human minions, does it?
It's a little like FDR and Churchill allying themselves with Stalin in World War II, isn't it? Sometimes you hate your enemy so much, you don't care who you make a deal with as long as they might help you beat them.
20elenchus
>16 gwendetenebre: "Something that'd always puzzled me about the Mythos is why the Great Old Ones had human minions, since ...
As phrased that way, it may sound like Drake is asking about the motivation on the part of the Old Ones, but I think he's not. He rephrases the question at the end to clarify it's the minion's motivation he's curious about. So "had minions" is more precisely phrased "find themselves in a position with minions" or "could ever attract minions".
But I'm intrigued by your question as to the motivation of the Old Ones. And a ready answer is: expediency. Especially if we think of the Old Ones as a natural force, a part of the cosmos, then it's simply a matter of what works, whether it's beneficial to have them.
The Old Ones as manifestation of evolution: not so much biological but cosmological evolution, after the manner in which stars form or matter coalesces into planetary systems. Which I think links up with the cosmic horror / indifference which HPL stressed.
As phrased that way, it may sound like Drake is asking about the motivation on the part of the Old Ones, but I think he's not. He rephrases the question at the end to clarify it's the minion's motivation he's curious about. So "had minions" is more precisely phrased "find themselves in a position with minions" or "could ever attract minions".
But I'm intrigued by your question as to the motivation of the Old Ones. And a ready answer is: expediency. Especially if we think of the Old Ones as a natural force, a part of the cosmos, then it's simply a matter of what works, whether it's beneficial to have them.
The Old Ones as manifestation of evolution: not so much biological but cosmological evolution, after the manner in which stars form or matter coalesces into planetary systems. Which I think links up with the cosmic horror / indifference which HPL stressed.
21gwendetenebre
>17 RandyStafford:
I agree with all four of your points. The first, regarding Drake's use of atrocities in service to the story, speaks to some really fine writing on his part. As to Dame Alice, it was a bit startling at a couple of points when she did not seem to react in an expected manner to the horrors (and horrible people) around her. Some of that might have to do with my 21st century vs. her late 19th/early 20th century social norms, but I'd still like to think she's just intensely focused, as you say. Thanks for the Historical Lovecraft heads-up.
I agree with all four of your points. The first, regarding Drake's use of atrocities in service to the story, speaks to some really fine writing on his part. As to Dame Alice, it was a bit startling at a couple of points when she did not seem to react in an expected manner to the horrors (and horrible people) around her. Some of that might have to do with my 21st century vs. her late 19th/early 20th century social norms, but I'd still like to think she's just intensely focused, as you say. Thanks for the Historical Lovecraft heads-up.
22gwendetenebre
>20 elenchus:
I'll accept expediency but it always did seem a bit strange to me that humans are needed at all in these tales. I suppose that they might be considered arrangers, if not outright consumables. I do like the idea of cosmological evolution, but aren't the Old Ones beyond even that? Evolution would seem to be a positive force, overall, right? I'd think that they somehow exist outside of (but maybe parallel to) all things natural.
I'll accept expediency but it always did seem a bit strange to me that humans are needed at all in these tales. I suppose that they might be considered arrangers, if not outright consumables. I do like the idea of cosmological evolution, but aren't the Old Ones beyond even that? Evolution would seem to be a positive force, overall, right? I'd think that they somehow exist outside of (but maybe parallel to) all things natural.
23artturnerjr
>22 gwendetenebre:
I don't think the minions ultimately are needed by the Old Ones, are they? I think the minions think they're needed, and that they will receive some sort of preferential treatment when the Old Ones return, but they're not, and they don't. Aren't there a couple of tales in Cthulhu's Reign where the cultists are all like, "Wow, we're really gonna have it good when the Old Ones return!" and they end up being just as fucked as everyone else?
I don't think the minions ultimately are needed by the Old Ones, are they? I think the minions think they're needed, and that they will receive some sort of preferential treatment when the Old Ones return, but they're not, and they don't. Aren't there a couple of tales in Cthulhu's Reign where the cultists are all like, "Wow, we're really gonna have it good when the Old Ones return!" and they end up being just as fucked as everyone else?
25artturnerjr
>24 gwendetenebre:
Yeah, exactly. It's like one of the great satirical jokes of Mythos fiction. Human beings think they're all that, but in cosmic terms, we're meaningless. The Old Ones are intended to symbolize the cosmos' indifference to us; correspondingly, they are about as concerned about us as we would be about an ant infestation, if that.
Yeah, exactly. It's like one of the great satirical jokes of Mythos fiction. Human beings think they're all that, but in cosmic terms, we're meaningless. The Old Ones are intended to symbolize the cosmos' indifference to us; correspondingly, they are about as concerned about us as we would be about an ant infestation, if that.
26housefulofpaper
I'm not sure exactly how I feel about this one. I can understand and even share the positive feelings towards it expressed above, but at the same time the use of such a terrible real-life situation as a setting for a fantasy story, and within the world of the story, the brutual Realpolitik of allying with Leopold's agents, I'm afraid it left me with a sort of moral queasiness.
27RandyStafford
>25 artturnerjr: Cthulhu. He's just not that into you!
>26 housefulofpaper: There is no horror of history that will not eventually be grist for the entertainment/art mill. Sometimes within the life of those who experienced the event.
>26 housefulofpaper: There is no horror of history that will not eventually be grist for the entertainment/art mill. Sometimes within the life of those who experienced the event.
28gwendetenebre
>26 housefulofpaper:, >27 RandyStafford:
Good points. In Drake's favor, I don't get the impression that he is simply dwelling on the story's atrocities in a lingering, exploitative manner. Such horrors were, unfortunately, part of the historical mise-en-scene and here they do weave back into the plot in a startling manner. I also think that the author successfully makes a point about so-called good and evil.
Good points. In Drake's favor, I don't get the impression that he is simply dwelling on the story's atrocities in a lingering, exploitative manner. Such horrors were, unfortunately, part of the historical mise-en-scene and here they do weave back into the plot in a startling manner. I also think that the author successfully makes a point about so-called good and evil.
29artturnerjr
>22 gwendetenebre: ff.
On the narrative need for worshipers/minions in Mythos fiction:
These worshipers served a useful narrative purpose for Lovecraft. Many beings of the Mythos were too powerful to be defeated by human opponents, and so horrific that direct knowledge of them meant insanity for the victim. When dealing with such beings, Lovecraft needed a way to provide exposition and build tension without bringing the story to a premature end. Human followers gave him a way to reveal information about their "gods" in a diluted form, and also made it possible for his protagonists to win paltry victories. Lovecraft, like his contemporaries, envisioned "savages" as closer to supernatural knowledge unknown to civilized man.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._P._Lovecraft#Non-human_influences_on_humanity
On the narrative need for worshipers/minions in Mythos fiction:
These worshipers served a useful narrative purpose for Lovecraft. Many beings of the Mythos were too powerful to be defeated by human opponents, and so horrific that direct knowledge of them meant insanity for the victim. When dealing with such beings, Lovecraft needed a way to provide exposition and build tension without bringing the story to a premature end. Human followers gave him a way to reveal information about their "gods" in a diluted form, and also made it possible for his protagonists to win paltry victories. Lovecraft, like his contemporaries, envisioned "savages" as closer to supernatural knowledge unknown to civilized man.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._P._Lovecraft#Non-human_influences_on_humanity
