Discussion Thread: Northanger Abbey

Halloween is almost here, which means it's the perfect time to discuss Jane Austen's homage to (and spoof of) the gothic novel! Northanger Abbey was Austen's first and arguably least sophisticated novel, and it seems to be the least generally beloved of her books. But personally, I think it doesn't get enough love, and Henry Tilney is one of my favorite Austen heroes!

So, what did you all think of the book? Is Catherine's naivety adorable or annoying? Did you find the sarcastic authorial voice too intrusive, or did it make you laugh? What did you think of the duplicitous Thorpes? Is it weird that Henry Tilney is a clergyman? Discuss! :)

There's a tutored read of Northanger Abbey here: http://www.librarything.com/topic/132430. I think it may be especially helpful for this book because NA is full of literary references that would have made sense in Austen's time but are a bit more obscure now!

I'm only halfway through. I'll be back soon as I'm flying through this one. One thing that strikes me is how much Catherine is like Evelina by Frances Burney. I can definitely see the influence.

I wanted to reach into the book and throttle John Thorpe. He was so rude! I nearly fell through the floor with embarrassment on Catherine's behalf.

Just in time for Halloween!

Is Catherine's naivety adorable or annoying?

Timely question, because the other night I was thinking about the "which Jane Austen heroine are you" quizzes that I come across regularly on the internet. Of course most everyone wants to be Elizabeth Bennet (I once clicked on one of these quizzes that just went to an article about why you ARE NOT Elizabeth Bennet no matter what you think. It was funny. But I digress.). Fewer feel an affinity to Anne Elliot, who is in second place, but definitely respected. No one wants to be Fanny Price, and the people who like Emma don't want to be her. Elinor? Wonderful person, but lacking in passion, and Marianne has too much passion. Then I drew a blank. Oh, right! Catherine. Why don't people want to be her? Too immature? Not real enough?

I really love Northanger Abbey. I just finished a rereading of it. To me, it certainly isn't as intricately plotted as some of her other works, but it has an enthusiasm and charm that I find very appealing. Part of this is because of the main character, Catherine. She is very young, only 17, and going out into the world for the first time without the guidance of her very practical mother (I love meeting the mother at the end of the book and contrasting her with Catherine's naivete). I enjoy Catherine's cluelessness. I also love Henry Tilney. Austen seems to give him some of her sarcasm and wit. It's fun to see him gently teasing Catherine and falling in love with her. I love Austen's line that goes something like "in finding him (Henry) irresistible, she became irresistible herself".

>6 Nickelini: I think Catherine is adorable, but I wouldn't want to be her - as much as I like reading her!

>3 luvamystery65: Yes, you can definitely see many of Austen's influences in this book. Obviously, her reading of Radcliffe and other gothic authors is a huge part of the book, but like you I also noticed the similarities to Evelina.

I also really enjoy this book because I feel like Austen's voice is so present. In both her narrator's asides and in Henry Tilney's sarcasm I feel like I really hear Austen's voice. I think in her later works she edits herself out a bit more (though she's still there).

I'm also about halfway through.

Thanks for the tutored read link - great stuff there.

I'm also laughing my way through the Bitch In a Bonnet: Reclaiming Jane Austen From the Stiffs, the Snobs, the Simps and the Saps (Volume 2) by Robert Rodi.

He points out that is one of the first examples of metafiction (books about books) in English literature. I think I'll try to read a few of them over the next year. I had meant to read Udolfo before NA, but, ah well - you know how it goes.

What do you think of Rodi's analysis of Henry Tilney?

It begins in Chapter 3 where he is first dancing with Catherine and teasing her about what she will say about him in her journal :

"'Yes, I know exactly what you will say:Friday, went to the Lower Room, wore my sprigged muslin robe with blue trimmings --plain black shoes -- appeared to much advantage'

Did you catch the bit about the sprigged muslin? .. Not the kind of detail Austen heroes are accustomed to finding worthy of comment, or even noticing at all. Colonel Brandon could die and be reincarnated six hundred thousand times; he'll never know muslin from sackcloth. But there's something epicene about Tilney - today, we'd call him a metrosexual and that's if we gave him the benefit of the doubt. Just listen to him as he boasts of his experience to Mrs. Allen, who is exactly the sort to be flattered by admiration of it:

'I always buy my own cravats, and am allowed to be an excellent judge; and my sister has often trusted me in the choice of a gown. I bought one for her the other day, and it was pronounced to be a prodigious bargain by every lady who saw it. I gave but five shillings a yard for it, and a true Indian muslin.'

After a whole evening of this kind of conversation -- witty bon mots spiked with an occasional jibe at someone else's unfortunate dress sense - Catherine departs the assembly 'with a strong inclination for continuing the acquaintance'. We twenty-first century types weren't surprised; what teenage girl doesn't long for a gay best friend? But this is the nineteenth century, when acceptable varieties of acquaintance between men and women were fewer than they are today. It was basically cleave-to-and-bear-children, or fugeddaboudit. So Catherine's stuck with actually falling in love with this guy." (Rodi p 251-252)

>9 streamsong: I'm now 3/4 of the way through and I have to agree with Rodi. That was my first thought too. I'm loving all of Henry's lines.

>9 streamsong: I'd forgotten those wonderful Rodi comments. Ha! He makes for a great companion for the books.

>9 streamsong: Oh, I totally disagree with Rodi here! I don't read Henry as being gay or metrosexual at all. I took his comments about clothing in the novel to be largely a joke. After all, he's talking with Mrs. Allen, who is obsessed with how everyone is dressed, and I think Henry is subtly making fun of her by pretending to be equally obsessed. Of course, I'm a bit biased because I love Henry Tilney as a romantic hero. :) But I really do think that the analysis of, "Oh, he talks about clothes, he must be gay!" is rather superficial.

I respect your opinion which is why I wanted a little feedback on the subject.

Rodi is openly gay with a husband, so I can't dismiss him as superficial when he takes the subject rather seriously. He has a running commentary throughout the book about Henry's lack of 'maculine' lifestyle. The one that comes to mind is that Henry is interested in women's novels, claims to have read hundreds and is unmatched in recalling "Julia's and Louisa's".

It's not surprising that we have a romantic male lead who doesn't have the common characteristics. We also have Catherine, who neither sings, nor plays the pianoforte, nor draws nor has any fondness for sewing whether fancywork or plain.

I mean, I understand how some readers could view Henry as homosexual...but I wonder how much of that is a reflection of our own culture, which tends to assume that well-dressed and well-groomed males are gay. I wasn't trying to insult Rodi as a person (or you for quoting him -- sorry if I offended you!); I just don't agree with his argument. I do totally agree that it makes sense to have an unconventional hero, since Catherine is a deliberately unconventional heroine.

Hmmm. Henry as a homosexual I don't see. I can kind of get the metrosexual thing, though. I kind of saw his knowledge of fabrics and dress styles more as Austen pointing out how smart he is about people in general - knowing it was the way to connect to Catherine's chaperone. Either way, I think his knowledge of women's interests just makes him an even better catch. It makes him so easy for Catherine to talk to.

I also do not agree that Henry Tilney is a homosexual. I thought that he was a very nice man, who took good care of Catherine. He definitely comes to her house to marry her in the end.

I just took an adult education course in Jane Austen. Our instructor was interested in the kind of parenting in Jane Austen's novels, which I found an interesting way to look at them. I felt that General Tilney, Henry and Eleanor's father, was rather unbelievably drawn. He believes that Catherine comes from a rich family because John Thorpe, whom he did not know, told him she was. Then, John Thorpe is again the only person that tells General Tilney that Catherine comes from a poor family. The General never checked with anyone else about Catherine's background, and did not seem to take any clues from her reactions to his statements indicating that he thought her family was rich such as when he assumes that her home has such and such.

Although Catherine was very young, I think that she was naive about Isabella Thorpe's interest in Catherine's brother, James. It took her a long time to realize that Isabella was primarily interested in the money she thought James had (or would have after their marriage).

Also, I was interested that Jane Austen did not tell what happened to most of the other characters at the conclusion of the novel. She only had Eleanor Tilney getting married, probably as a way for Henry Tilney's marriage to Catherine to occur since the Morelands wanted the General to approve of the marriage before it occurred. Although I have not read all of Austen's novels, she usually told what happened to most of the major characters.

>14 christina_reads: I agree--I think assuming Henry is gay is reading a late-18th century novel with 21st century sensibilities. I would think knowledge of muslins and fashion was more a distinction of class, not sex. Since clothing was made to order, I would assume a gentleman had to be aware of what material his clothing was made of, how much it cost, etc. Plus Henry doesn't just read novels; he boasts that he has many years' worth of reading ahead of Catherine, including history.

Perhaps a definition of metrosexual : a heterosexual, usually urban male who pays much attention to his personal appearance and cultivates an upscale lifestyle.

>18 streamsong: That seems fair!

Did anyone else kind of love the Thorpes? I don't mean they're good people, but aren't they fun to read? I'm especially delighted by Isabella -- she's such a transparent gold-digger, not to mention a terrible friend, but poor sweet Catherine doesn't see it. One of my favorite passages, from Chapter 9:

"Catherine could not tell a falsehood even to please Isabella; but the latter was spared the misery of her friend's dissenting voice, by not waiting for her answer. . . . It was ages since she had had a moment's conversation with her dearest Catherine; and, though she had such thousands of things to say to her, it appeared as if they were never to be together again; so, with smiles of most exquisite misery, and the laughing eye of utter despondency, she bade her friend adieu and went on."