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1gwendetenebre
"The Outsider" by H.P. Lovecraft
Discussion begins February 10.
First published in the April 1926 issue of Weird Tales.
ONLINE VERSIONS
http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/o.aspx
https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/l/lovecraft/hp/outsider/
http://www.feedbooks.com/book/6547/the-outsider (free eBook)
BIBLIOGRAPHY
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?41883
SELECTED PRINT VERSIONS
Black Seas of Infinity
American Gothic Tales
The Century's Best Horror Fiction 1901-1950
The Best of H. P. Lovecraft: Bloodcurdling Tales of Horror and the Macabre
H.P. Lovecraft: Tales
MISCELLANY
http://lovecraftzine.com/2011/01/18/h-p-lovecrafts-the-outsider-a-radio-drama-by...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outsider_(short_story)
https://www.blackgate.com/2010/12/20/hp-lovecraft-the-style-adjectival/
http://tinyurl.com/hy6rgnr
Discussion begins February 10.
First published in the April 1926 issue of Weird Tales.
ONLINE VERSIONS
http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/o.aspx
https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/l/lovecraft/hp/outsider/
http://www.feedbooks.com/book/6547/the-outsider (free eBook)
BIBLIOGRAPHY
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?41883
SELECTED PRINT VERSIONS
Black Seas of Infinity
American Gothic Tales
The Century's Best Horror Fiction 1901-1950
The Best of H. P. Lovecraft: Bloodcurdling Tales of Horror and the Macabre
H.P. Lovecraft: Tales
MISCELLANY
http://lovecraftzine.com/2011/01/18/h-p-lovecrafts-the-outsider-a-radio-drama-by...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outsider_(short_story)
https://www.blackgate.com/2010/12/20/hp-lovecraft-the-style-adjectival/
http://tinyurl.com/hy6rgnr
2artturnerjr
So many options for this one! The Complete Works of H.P. Lovecraft for me, I think.
3gwendetenebre
The end reveal probably won't come as a great surprise these days. Was it unique in 1926? Even so, the imagery in the last two paragraphs in which the narrator finds his rightful place among "the mocking and friendly ghouls on the night-wind" is breathtaking. I think HPL has the ghouls of Poe's "The Bells" in mind.
At first amusing and then fascinating is the narrator's claim that "...although I had read of speech, I had never thought to try to speak aloud.".
At first amusing and then fascinating is the narrator's claim that "...although I had read of speech, I had never thought to try to speak aloud.".
4elenchus
>3 gwendetenebre: At first amusing and then fascinating is the narrator's claim that "...although I had read of speech, I had never thought to try to speak aloud.".
There's a lot in this tale that required suspension of disbelief, but it was easy to go along. An unlikely premise, but an intriguing place from which to consider what might happen.
The dream state describing the ascent of the tower, and the tower itself, was great. I was pleasantly confused about what precisely was happening, not even realising initially he was climbing from the inside rather than the outside, but didn't want to stop and parse it all out. It paid off with the reveal of what lies at the top of the tower! My entire perspective wheeled as I tried to take in what it meant for the earth's surface to be there, the trees below and the crumbling castle itself ....
The end was strongly reminiscent of Poe. I've said it before, I need a term for this type of foreshadowing that is so strong as to really be a pre-reveal. It's no surprise, but the tension built up as we get to where he inevitably is taking us ... !
There's a lot in this tale that required suspension of disbelief, but it was easy to go along. An unlikely premise, but an intriguing place from which to consider what might happen.
The dream state describing the ascent of the tower, and the tower itself, was great. I was pleasantly confused about what precisely was happening, not even realising initially he was climbing from the inside rather than the outside, but didn't want to stop and parse it all out. It paid off with the reveal of what lies at the top of the tower! My entire perspective wheeled as I tried to take in what it meant for the earth's surface to be there, the trees below and the crumbling castle itself ....
The end was strongly reminiscent of Poe. I've said it before, I need a term for this type of foreshadowing that is so strong as to really be a pre-reveal. It's no surprise, but the tension built up as we get to where he inevitably is taking us ... !
5gwendetenebre
>4 elenchus:
The dream state describing the ascent of the tower, and the tower itself, was great
Yes! Also, the buildup from the beginning is highly atmospheric in a more traditional castle-and-forest, release the bats gothic mode, but the point a which the weird truly sets in for me is this moment:
...instead of a dizzying prospect of treetops seen from a lofty eminence, there stretched around me on a level through the grating nothing less than the solid ground, decked and diversified by marble slabs and columns, and overshadowed by an ancient stone church, whose ruined spire gleamed spectrally in the moonlight.
The dream state describing the ascent of the tower, and the tower itself, was great
Yes! Also, the buildup from the beginning is highly atmospheric in a more traditional castle-and-forest, release the bats gothic mode, but the point a which the weird truly sets in for me is this moment:
...instead of a dizzying prospect of treetops seen from a lofty eminence, there stretched around me on a level through the grating nothing less than the solid ground, decked and diversified by marble slabs and columns, and overshadowed by an ancient stone church, whose ruined spire gleamed spectrally in the moonlight.
6paradoxosalpha
"The Outsider" was one of the first Lovecraft stories I read as a teenager, and I was nonplussed by it then. It seemed to me at the time that it was all supposed to be about the twist at the end, which was no kind of surprise. This time, reading it more just for the language and images, I enjoyed it a lot more.
The underworld castle, the church of the narrator's surfacing, and the chateau where he surprises the revelers are all a strange fit with the closing Egyptian evocation of
The underworld castle, the church of the narrator's surfacing, and the chateau where he surprises the revelers are all a strange fit with the closing Egyptian evocation of
the catacombs of Nephren-Ka in the sealed and unknown valley of Hadoth by the Nile. ... the moon over the rock tombs of Neb, ... the unnamed feasts of Nitokris beneath the Great Pyramid
7elenchus
The choice to narrate the tale from the perspective of the ghoul or undead creature is also interesting. The motif of forgetting brackets the tale: presumably the creature learned to read when alive, though doesn't retain any specific memories as highlighted in the quote of >3 gwendetenebre:; and then gratefully returns to an Egypt-tinged forgetfulness through the use of nepenthe.
ETA this observation: the title is really quite insightful and aligns with HPL's conception of an indifferent universe. The creature is an outsider to the revelers, but of course it's a place we're all heading, so not altogether outside after all, though they (and we readers with them) may not wish to believe it.
ETA this observation: the title is really quite insightful and aligns with HPL's conception of an indifferent universe. The creature is an outsider to the revelers, but of course it's a place we're all heading, so not altogether outside after all, though they (and we readers with them) may not wish to believe it.
8AndreasJ
>6 paradoxosalpha: "The Outsider" was one of the first Lovecraft stories I read as a teenager, and I was nonplussed by it then.
It was my first HPL tale too, read in some sort of multi-author short story collection from the city library. At the time - early teens probably - I didn't pay much attention to author names, so when I much later - age 25 or so - got interested in Lovecraft from online references, it was a minor surprise to recognize it in the first Lovecraft collection I read.
I don't know if "suspension of disbelief" is the appropriate approach to this story. It's nightmarish not only in content but in structure - might we then not read it as exactly a nightmare, or at least set in a world governed by the logic of nightmare?
Do we know if this is one of the stories Lovecraft based on a a dream of his?
It was my first HPL tale too, read in some sort of multi-author short story collection from the city library. At the time - early teens probably - I didn't pay much attention to author names, so when I much later - age 25 or so - got interested in Lovecraft from online references, it was a minor surprise to recognize it in the first Lovecraft collection I read.
I don't know if "suspension of disbelief" is the appropriate approach to this story. It's nightmarish not only in content but in structure - might we then not read it as exactly a nightmare, or at least set in a world governed by the logic of nightmare?
Do we know if this is one of the stories Lovecraft based on a a dream of his?
9elenchus
>8 AndreasJ: It's nightmarish not only in content but in structure
Actually, I agree with that. As the story opened, I wasn't struck by the nightmarish qualities, and so simply chose to overlook such claims as "I don't recall anyone raising me" and the bit about not speaking aloud. But in hindsight, it's very much the logic of nightmare.
That take is echoed in the MISCELLANY essay linked above (black gate) on HPL's style. I found it very insightful into not only his aesthetic, but the logic of his story as it fits his overall outlook. Very much worth a read.
Actually, I agree with that. As the story opened, I wasn't struck by the nightmarish qualities, and so simply chose to overlook such claims as "I don't recall anyone raising me" and the bit about not speaking aloud. But in hindsight, it's very much the logic of nightmare.
That take is echoed in the MISCELLANY essay linked above (black gate) on HPL's style. I found it very insightful into not only his aesthetic, but the logic of his story as it fits his overall outlook. Very much worth a read.
10housefulofpaper
We looked at The Outsider alongside The Call of Cthulhu in the Gothic Literature group four years ago (gosh, is it really that long ago?). I don't think my thoughts on the story have changed since then.
http://www.librarything.com/topic/130460
>3 gwendetenebre:
How unique the ending was in 1926 is something I've wondered about too, because on my first reading, I think it seemed almost hackneyed. I wondered why this should be so.
Pondering on this, all I could come up was that it feels as if the story has been a blueprint for any number of EC comic, and EC comic style, stories down the years, through the underground/alternative and independent comics from the 1960s to the 1980s. I think also pertinent, although not the same in the sense of storyline, are those Marvel horror titles of the 1970s which empathised with non-speaking Outsider characters (Frankenstein's Monster, the Living Mummy, Man-Thing, etc.) They empathised via the unusual method of captions written in the second person, thereby simultaneously making the monster and the reader "you".
That, I think, is where the similarity came from for me, but I can't say if anything earlier than HPL's story had a similar set-up, although there were, of course, Romantic outsiders (Frankenstein's monster, again, Lord Byron - life and work, and so on). For a later possible precurser, I'd - tentatively - suggest the characters played by Lon Chaney - but I'm not sure HPL saw his films, or would appreciate the comparison. There's something of the Gothic, as well as a more mainstream Romanticism, in those silents of the 1920s, all the same.
By the way, I listened to the reading of the story by William Roberts on the Naxos CD "The Thing on the Doorstep and Other Stories".
http://www.librarything.com/topic/130460
>3 gwendetenebre:
How unique the ending was in 1926 is something I've wondered about too, because on my first reading, I think it seemed almost hackneyed. I wondered why this should be so.
Pondering on this, all I could come up was that it feels as if the story has been a blueprint for any number of EC comic, and EC comic style, stories down the years, through the underground/alternative and independent comics from the 1960s to the 1980s. I think also pertinent, although not the same in the sense of storyline, are those Marvel horror titles of the 1970s which empathised with non-speaking Outsider characters (Frankenstein's Monster, the Living Mummy, Man-Thing, etc.) They empathised via the unusual method of captions written in the second person, thereby simultaneously making the monster and the reader "you".
That, I think, is where the similarity came from for me, but I can't say if anything earlier than HPL's story had a similar set-up, although there were, of course, Romantic outsiders (Frankenstein's monster, again, Lord Byron - life and work, and so on). For a later possible precurser, I'd - tentatively - suggest the characters played by Lon Chaney - but I'm not sure HPL saw his films, or would appreciate the comparison. There's something of the Gothic, as well as a more mainstream Romanticism, in those silents of the 1920s, all the same.
By the way, I listened to the reading of the story by William Roberts on the Naxos CD "The Thing on the Doorstep and Other Stories".
11elenchus
>10 housefulofpaper: They empathised via the unusual method of captions written in the second person, thereby simultaneously making the monster and the reader "you".
I didn't read a great many comics growing up, but I do remember a couple like that. It makes for a distinct feel, certainly.
I didn't read a great many comics growing up, but I do remember a couple like that. It makes for a distinct feel, certainly.
12artturnerjr
This strikes me as a sort of "separate the men from the boys" (as it were) HPL story. As Poe-esque as the tale is, there can be absolutely no doubt that ol' Grandpa wrote it. There's tons of that "adjectival froth" that Neil Gaiman talks about as central to HPL's style ("unclean, uncanny, unwelcome, abnormal, and detestable" - yes!), and phrases that might as well have Howie's fingerprints on them ("the putrid, dripping eidolon of unwholesome revelation"(!)). I mean, you either love this stuff or you hate it. I'm pretty sure, at this point, y'all know which side I'm on. :)
Here's Joshi and Schultz (in An H.P. Lovecraft Encyclopedia) commenting on likely sources for the concluding image of the Outsider touching the mirror and seeing himself (tales mentioned include "William Wilson" (hey, we just read that one!), Oscar Wilde's "The Birthday of the Infanta" (need to put that up for Deep Ones noms), and Mary Shelley's Frankenstein):
http://tinyurl.com/jafawgf
J & S also refer to the "over-stressed" autobiographical elements of the tale, but conclude:
In a very general way "The Outsider" may possibly be indicative of HPL's own self-image, particularly the image of one who always thought himself ugly and whose mother told at least one individual about her son's "hideous" face
ETA: Added touchstones & source of Joshi & Schultz' remarks
Here's Joshi and Schultz (in An H.P. Lovecraft Encyclopedia) commenting on likely sources for the concluding image of the Outsider touching the mirror and seeing himself (tales mentioned include "William Wilson" (hey, we just read that one!), Oscar Wilde's "The Birthday of the Infanta" (need to put that up for Deep Ones noms), and Mary Shelley's Frankenstein):
http://tinyurl.com/jafawgf
J & S also refer to the "over-stressed" autobiographical elements of the tale, but conclude:
In a very general way "The Outsider" may possibly be indicative of HPL's own self-image, particularly the image of one who always thought himself ugly and whose mother told at least one individual about her son's "hideous" face
ETA: Added touchstones & source of Joshi & Schultz' remarks
13gwendetenebre
>10 housefulofpaper:
I have that post-1950s EC comic conditioning. too. There is a certain rhythm that you get to know, that's for sure. I think I remember reading somewhere that they got that "big reveal" bent from the stories of O. Henry. Good point on the 70's Marvel monsters. I was heavily into those, so I can easily recall what you are describing.
The following link indicates that HPL saw and enjoyed Lon Chaney's The Phantom of the Opera, but it's hard to tell if he would have also been interested in, say, He Who Gets Slapped or The Unknown, with their mutilated, pathetic characters. He would surely have identified with the outsider aspect but maybe not the gruesomeness in these films. But then again, The Phantom is pretty gruesome too! I think I recall HPL in his letters as being pretty harsh on the potboiler aspect of some films he saw.
http://www.hplovecraft.com/life/interest/movies.aspx
On a related note, here is a list of HPL's favorite movies:
http://www.hplovecraft.com/life/interest/movies.aspx
I have that post-1950s EC comic conditioning. too. There is a certain rhythm that you get to know, that's for sure. I think I remember reading somewhere that they got that "big reveal" bent from the stories of O. Henry. Good point on the 70's Marvel monsters. I was heavily into those, so I can easily recall what you are describing.
The following link indicates that HPL saw and enjoyed Lon Chaney's The Phantom of the Opera, but it's hard to tell if he would have also been interested in, say, He Who Gets Slapped or The Unknown, with their mutilated, pathetic characters. He would surely have identified with the outsider aspect but maybe not the gruesomeness in these films. But then again, The Phantom is pretty gruesome too! I think I recall HPL in his letters as being pretty harsh on the potboiler aspect of some films he saw.
http://www.hplovecraft.com/life/interest/movies.aspx
On a related note, here is a list of HPL's favorite movies:
http://www.hplovecraft.com/life/interest/movies.aspx
14elenchus
I've been meaning to re-visit O. Henry for years, and that's another nudge for me. For one thing, I apparently confuse him with Saki (H.H. Munro), and I really shouldn't be doing that. Reading a good bit of each around the same time might be a 2016 reading project for me.
15gwendetenebre
>12 artturnerjr:
Thanks for the Joshi/Schultz link, Art. And yes, the DO's should definitely tackle some Oscar Wilde!
I wonder if HPL's mum would have made that remark if she'd have known we'd still be mentioning it in 2016!
Thanks for the Joshi/Schultz link, Art. And yes, the DO's should definitely tackle some Oscar Wilde!
I wonder if HPL's mum would have made that remark if she'd have known we'd still be mentioning it in 2016!
16artturnerjr
>15 gwendetenebre:
I wonder if HPL's mum would have made that remark if she'd have known we'd still be mentioning it in 2016!
Ha!
The funny thing about that is that I always felt that HPL very much favored her:
Susie Lovecraft
HPL
I wonder if HPL's mum would have made that remark if she'd have known we'd still be mentioning it in 2016!
Ha!
The funny thing about that is that I always felt that HPL very much favored her:
Susie Lovecraft
HPL
17RandyStafford
I'm going to propose one more influence on HPL for this story: Edgar Rice Burroughs.
At one point in his life, Lovecraft was a Burroughs fan, and I was reminded that Tarzan also taught himself to read and grew up with an absence of mirrors. In The Jungle Tales of Tarzan, Tarzan only comes to self-awareness about his appearance by looking in a pool of water. It dates from 1919.
At one point in his life, Lovecraft was a Burroughs fan, and I was reminded that Tarzan also taught himself to read and grew up with an absence of mirrors. In The Jungle Tales of Tarzan, Tarzan only comes to self-awareness about his appearance by looking in a pool of water. It dates from 1919.
