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1zangasta
What I'd like covered, preferably in one book, but other suggestions will be investigated:
- Introduction to the setting from which it evolved: Political, military (eg Bedouin raiding), religious (eg extent of polytheism, Judaism, christianity), social;
- The life of that "prophet";
- The aftermath, including splits into different sects: the whys and wherefores;
- The Quran: How it is likely to have come about (there-among influences from Jewish and christian writings), the existence of reliable (ie non-bowdlerised) translations;
- ETA: Ditto for the sunnah;
- Ditto for the hadith;
- Important in all this is issues like:
-- What authority is vested in different things, eg the Quran and the hadith, and how are they used?
-- How would I look up or use the hadith if I come across a quote somewhere? (This seems a bit confusing.)
-- The extent to which we can know any of these details for sure...
- There's probably more that I haven't thought of expressing, so read my mind as well as you can...
- ETA: Sharia.
I'm clearly not interested in a "Look how shiny!" presentation, more for the sake of getting to grips with its historical and social context, impact, and usage. I've been thinking that christianity is worse than islam, but have pretty much changed my mind during my reading of A God Who Hates, and my desire to understand the ugly thing has been fueled. Yes, yes, I know. Religion of piss, I mean, peace, but there's something suspicious about a thing of which its adherents and defendants seemingly cannot even admit to the existence of the ugly bits. So though the acknowledgement of "moderate" verses and views has its place, the existence of ugliness such as the hadith mentioned at the top of this unread article needs to be documented.
Any suggestions?
The Politically incorrect Guide to Islam is possibly a bit too controversial? And doesn't mention the hadith in its Table of Contents. Though, if I can't find anything better, I might just as well go with one of Amazon's first suggestions, no?
The Study Quran is just too fat, and a bit expensive...
- Introduction to the setting from which it evolved: Political, military (eg Bedouin raiding), religious (eg extent of polytheism, Judaism, christianity), social;
- The life of that "prophet";
- The aftermath, including splits into different sects: the whys and wherefores;
- The Quran: How it is likely to have come about (there-among influences from Jewish and christian writings), the existence of reliable (ie non-bowdlerised) translations;
- ETA: Ditto for the sunnah;
- Ditto for the hadith;
- Important in all this is issues like:
-- What authority is vested in different things, eg the Quran and the hadith, and how are they used?
-- How would I look up or use the hadith if I come across a quote somewhere? (This seems a bit confusing.)
-- The extent to which we can know any of these details for sure...
- There's probably more that I haven't thought of expressing, so read my mind as well as you can...
- ETA: Sharia.
I'm clearly not interested in a "Look how shiny!" presentation, more for the sake of getting to grips with its historical and social context, impact, and usage. I've been thinking that christianity is worse than islam, but have pretty much changed my mind during my reading of A God Who Hates, and my desire to understand the ugly thing has been fueled. Yes, yes, I know. Religion of piss, I mean, peace, but there's something suspicious about a thing of which its adherents and defendants seemingly cannot even admit to the existence of the ugly bits. So though the acknowledgement of "moderate" verses and views has its place, the existence of ugliness such as the hadith mentioned at the top of this unread article needs to be documented.
Any suggestions?
The Politically incorrect Guide to Islam is possibly a bit too controversial? And doesn't mention the hadith in its Table of Contents. Though, if I can't find anything better, I might just as well go with one of Amazon's first suggestions, no?
The Study Quran is just too fat, and a bit expensive...
2paradoxosalpha
>1 zangasta: there's something suspicious about a thing of which its adherents and defendants seemingly cannot even admit to the existence of the ugly bits
Equally true of Christianity.
When I was a TA for an Intro to Islam course, the professor included Karen Armstrong's Islam: A Short History. It was accurate enough in terms of an outsider perspective reflecting on insider claims, and a quick read. It didn't take a critical position, on the whole, though.
Equally true of Christianity.
When I was a TA for an Intro to Islam course, the professor included Karen Armstrong's Islam: A Short History. It was accurate enough in terms of an outsider perspective reflecting on insider claims, and a quick read. It didn't take a critical position, on the whole, though.
3zangasta
>2 paradoxosalpha:
Thanks, noted. Though, having read two of her books, I'm not terribly impressed by her ability to render historical facts to my satisfaction. Reading two 1 star reviews on Amazon puts me further off this specific attempt of hers.
Thanks, noted. Though, having read two of her books, I'm not terribly impressed by her ability to render historical facts to my satisfaction. Reading two 1 star reviews on Amazon puts me further off this specific attempt of hers.
4richardbsmith
There are some good books on Islam. I am not particularly qualified to make specific recommendations, although I am sure that I would not recommend Karen Armstrong's book.
I think I can recommend some edx courses.
This course was recommended to me. I have not taken it. On the Quran.
https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:NotreDameX+TH120.2x+3T2015/courseware/...
And there is a series on various religious traditions.
https://www.edx.org/xseries/world-religions-through-scriptures
I plan to take these courses. The first of the series was a general review of how to study religions. I dropped that course. I do have hope for the courses on the various religions.
I think I can recommend some edx courses.
This course was recommended to me. I have not taken it. On the Quran.
https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:NotreDameX+TH120.2x+3T2015/courseware/...
And there is a series on various religious traditions.
https://www.edx.org/xseries/world-religions-through-scriptures
I plan to take these courses. The first of the series was a general review of how to study religions. I dropped that course. I do have hope for the courses on the various religions.
5zangasta
>4 richardbsmith:
Thank you.
The Quran course will be taken down shortly.
I am registered for the series, but... it's... Well, I have little hope of finding the kind of thing I am after in there, and I prefer a good book anyway, there's no denying that. Having done the first two weeks of the introductory course, I'm not sure if I'll complete it.
Thank you.
The Quran course will be taken down shortly.
I am registered for the series, but... it's... Well, I have little hope of finding the kind of thing I am after in there, and I prefer a good book anyway, there's no denying that. Having done the first two weeks of the introductory course, I'm not sure if I'll complete it.
6zangasta
>1 zangasta: Edited to add Shariah.
7richardbsmith
I did not like the first couple weeks of the series courses. My hopes are that the others will have more substance.
I think the Quran course will be back up. Several have said good things about the course and the forums.
I think the Quran course will be back up. Several have said good things about the course and the forums.
8zangasta
>7 richardbsmith:
I do not like the forums on the edX platform. Coursera have a much better solution. But I'll see.
I do not like the forums on the edX platform. Coursera have a much better solution. But I'll see.
9richardbsmith
You are correct. Coursera had a much better solution. That is unfortunately no longer true. Coursera went out of their way to destroy their forums.
At present, edx forums, as bad as they remain, are preferable to what is the new Coursera format.
At present, edx forums, as bad as they remain, are preferable to what is the new Coursera format.
10librorumamans
You could have a look at Malise Ruthven (Wikipedia). I found Islam in the world useful when I read it some years ago (before 2001). I believe it has been updated.
11zangasta
>9 richardbsmith: That sounds terrible. As to the edX series: I'll see what happens, richard. :-)
>10 librorumamans: Thanks, I'll investigate that.
>10 librorumamans: Thanks, I'll investigate that.
12zangasta
>1 zangasta: Edited to add the sunnah. Which I was unaware of until today... And there seems to be something nagging at the back of my mind.
Maybe tomorrow I'll add your suggestions to the OP so people can see them at a glance.
Maybe tomorrow I'll add your suggestions to the OP so people can see them at a glance.
13richardbsmith
http://www.librarything.com/topic/219230
thread announcing the edx series. Not much interest then. Perhaps some of us will take some of the courses.
thread announcing the edx series. Not much interest then. Perhaps some of us will take some of the courses.
14zangasta
>13 richardbsmith:
Yes, I saw that. It's a pity that a group such as this doesn't appear to show an interest. I can sort of understand those who, like me, are dubious about religion, but there have been so many in this group both interested in and knowledgeable about religion on the pro side. Maybe the problem is that they already know too much relative to such a presumably introductory course?
It could have been good to have LT as replacement venue for discussion - as it is, I see no chance of my engaging to the point of passing (unless I lie about my level of engagement - which I don't care to do). This comment is, however, not a commitment to engage in discussion here at LT...
Yes, I saw that. It's a pity that a group such as this doesn't appear to show an interest. I can sort of understand those who, like me, are dubious about religion, but there have been so many in this group both interested in and knowledgeable about religion on the pro side. Maybe the problem is that they already know too much relative to such a presumably introductory course?
It could have been good to have LT as replacement venue for discussion - as it is, I see no chance of my engaging to the point of passing (unless I lie about my level of engagement - which I don't care to do). This comment is, however, not a commitment to engage in discussion here at LT...
15zangasta
>10 librorumamans:
Thank you. I have investigated a little, and though I don't think it will cover everything I seek, his VSI is available via my local library system and it looks like a good one. It has lots of negative reviews by people complaining that Ruthven denies Muhammad's night-time flight. So that should be a good place to start exploring. His Wikipedia page led me to A History of the Arab Peoples which looks like it will be excellent for background material.
Thank you. I have investigated a little, and though I don't think it will cover everything I seek, his VSI is available via my local library system and it looks like a good one. It has lots of negative reviews by people complaining that Ruthven denies Muhammad's night-time flight. So that should be a good place to start exploring. His Wikipedia page led me to A History of the Arab Peoples which looks like it will be excellent for background material.
16paradoxosalpha
Another book in the Intro Islam syllabus during my TA stint was Following Muhammad by Carl Ernst. It won't supply much to answer your historical questions, but it does work to address the issues regarding disposition of authority in contemporary Islam.
17zangasta
>16 paradoxosalpha:
Thanks, looks like another one ignoring the ugly bits. Well, there's a place for reading such views too.
Thanks, looks like another one ignoring the ugly bits. Well, there's a place for reading such views too.

