Adressing the reader: Formal or informal? [fr, de, other languages?]

In the French translation forum the question arose whether "tu" or "vous" should be used. I had considered briefly to ask the same question in the German translation forum yesterday, but since everyone seemed to be happy with the informal form, left it.
Domp has a point however: The more "serious" websites use the formal form of adressing the reader ("Vous"/ "Sie"). I checked with a few German ones (Literaturschock, Handlungsreisen, Literaturcafé) and they all use the formal form.
Maybe we could have some input by Tim here? This is not only a problem of translation, but will influence the degree of seriousness the site emanates. The "Du" form is widely used between young people, but it is NOT the standard form of addressing in Germany (unlike in Skandinavia). I would never address a person in the street or in a shop with "Du", and in a professional setting always use the formal form.

Agree that a (ideally site-wide) guideline should ideally be worked out ASAP: practically all indo-european languages (and a slew of others) have a t-v distinction.

Just bumping this up, because I think that this is a question that really should be discussed. It's not a technical question, but a societal (?) one, which nevertheless are as important as the technical ones...

In German, a web site using the Du form (informal) is in my opinion geared towards the younger generation (twenty-somethings, early thirties). I have the impression that in English, especially American English the switch to the informal form is often made quite early in acquaintance ("Call me Bob."). This simply is not done in Germany outside the private circle(friends, sports, etc.). At work, the formal form prevails. Every person you do not know, is to be addressed in the formal way. Older people are to be addressed formally (and they are the ones that offer the "DU", not the younger ones).

Which kind of people do we want to attract: Students? Their parents, as well? Because the older people might be irritated by the informal form (not necessarily put off, but they might think "Oh, these people are trying to be especially hip, calling everybody Du." ).

I won't be able to take part in the discussion, sadly, since I'll be off on a business trip until Friday, with unknown chances of web access.

For completeness, and since a garota de Ipanema alemã started this thread, I'll mention that Portuguese has a three-way distinction, tu, você, o senhor / a senhora.

Of course, since I'm not a native speaker, my intuitions are probably off and I shouldn't propose final answers. Traditionally, the distinction would be inferiors, peers, superiors. But that has all eroded. The formal isn't quite relegated to the place of the English third-person address, "what will Madame be having for dinner this evening?", but that's the direction.

The degree of this change isn't the same throughout the lusophone world. Portugal and some states of Brazil are further toward tu. (Just as I believe there is a difference in tu / Usted between Spain and Latin America, which may also be a concern here. I have even less to contribute about that.)

Both você and o senhor take the third person, which means that when translating "your" you can't tell which it was, just that it wasn't tu. (There are informal Brazilian dialects that use tu with the third-person verb forms. But I cannot imagine anyone writing that outside IM. There is also debate whether Brazilian is still prodrop, which would be a grammatical difference between the dialects rather than just a lexical one. Kinda like how English English uses inflected forms of have for the non-modal verb, "Have you any Grey Poupon?", which isn't standard American English. I'm getting off track here.)

All of which seems to indicate that você is the right answer, unless some native speaker feels otherwise.

Finally, I should mention that Submarino, the Brazilian Amazon (no irony intended) uses the first person, "Meu Carrinho", which Tim says he dislikes. (Of course, they can't keep the pretense up througout, "Seu carrinho está vazio.")

I'm not a native speaker of any language with a t/v distinction, but I have studied a bit of French and German. </disclaimer>

It seems to me that the LT site in English is pretty informal, which might be an argument for using the informal forms in other languages. On the main page, for example, "What's good?" "Check it out" and "And if the buzz page doesn't convince you, you cannot be convinced. Go away" all strike me as pretty informal, not to mention "Pssst!" for book recommendations. I rather think informality is a characteristic of Web 2.0 sites in general (Flickr comes to mind).

On the other hand, I don't think any of the things I mentioned above would alienate older readers, which is a concern mentioned by some about using t over v.

(Edited to fix typo.)

In Italian we have the same problem we encounter in German or French, for example: the use of "tu" or "lei".
Actually, I was on the Italian Ebay, not long ago, and I realized that they use the informal "tu", instead of the formal "lei".
I do not think that Italian users would find the use of "tu" offensive.

So, I would be wary of a site-wide answer. The 2pS/2pPl distinction may be nearly IE-wide, but it has different applications in different countries. (Let us not, for example, translate it "Thy LibraryThing.")

All I can say is that LibraryThing should feel friendly but not patronizing or childish. There is no need to be stiff or official, but it should not sound like an IM between two teenagers or like one of those sites that TRIES to be so cool. In English, LibraryThing went for "Your library" not "My library." I find the latter cloying. A website is *offering* you something, not pretending to be in your head. That's my feeling, anyway.

If the situation rises to a boil, let Abby or me know. We can break a tie, particularly if we can read the arguments. Anyway, I'm in Germany next week, hanging around with the Abebooks Europe staff. They speak a half-dozen languages natively, and handled the internationalization of Abebooks, so they can help us too.

>7 timspalding:

The 2pS/2pPl distinction may be nearly IE-wide, but it has different applications in different countries.

Let's make clear it is not a "2pS/2pPl distinction", but rather differing (in)formality and distinction. Though in some languages--as i.a. in German or in French--the more formal (or less informal) form might resemble the plural form, still it is not plural but singular indeed.

Then again, at least in some languages--as e.g. in Dutch, which I know best--, there are not only more than two possibilities with 2pS, but it depends on i.a. social and regional situation--and religious oblivion!--whether one of them is in between the more formal and the more informal, and thus fits for universal use equivalent to the English you indeed, ore rather that very same is the most formal and distinctive of them all, more or less equivalent to the English Thou. Figure what difficulties one can encounter in this matter.

In this case, I think the "my library" choice comes in as a handy solution.

Anyway, I'm in Germany next week, (...)

Hmm. You are expected to be and speak at the Frankfurter Buchmesse this Friday, aren't you? Of course, while being there, you might as well stay some more days, hanging around with the Abebooks Europe staff.

I cut the "my" entirely for French because, for once, whose library is being discussed is implicit (French uses less possessives than English), and we needed space.

I've tried to kept an informal tone with a polite second person plural for French, which works rather well, I think. Wikipédia uses "vous" for all instructions/information pages, although users usually talk in "tu".

Wikipedia is a good analogue.

I'd rather have teen-agers thinking we're old fuddy-duddies than their elders thinking we are rude. So I'd err on the side of formality.

Same here. I'm only 22, but I'm still irked to no end being adressed as "tu" by cloth store or restaurant clerks, even (especialy!) if they are my age.

I am 50, but it does not bother me being addressed with "tu".

It looks like Wikipedia uses du for German, tu for Italian, but vous for French. Circeus and aluvalibri, you speak French and Italian respectively, right? So that would mesh with the Wikipedia choices.

It looks like v is the better choice for French, t for Italian, with some disagreement about German. (I'll cast my vote for "du," but I'm easily swayed.)

(Let us not, for example, translate it "Thy LibraryThing.")

Can we change the English to that?

>14 ellen.w:

In Dutch, Wikipedia (too) is making a mess of it. See i.a. at the Dutch language Wikipedia Homepage Hoofdpagina - Wikipedia : "Met uw steun houden wij Wikipedia online!" (message asking for support, see on top of every nl.wikipedia page) vs. "Wil je meer doen dan alleen lezen, help dan mee." -- i.e. "Avec votre support (...)" vs. "Si tu veux faire plus que lire (...)". A mess.

I do understand (and agree) that "Met jouw steun (...)" ("Avec ton aide (...)") would be far too childish indeed, thus the opting for "uw" ("votre"). Then again, they are not consequent in this at all.

Therefore, best option in Dutch, I think, is to choose the "My library" equivalent. However, wherever possible, better be implicit, and if necessary to use any "you"--as in: "you can do this and this"--opt for "u/uw", not "jij/jouw".

Still, the more formal "u" hasn't to be too formal.

Taking an example in French, instead of finishing a letter with :

"Je t' embrasse," <very informal> (this is for family and rather close friends use only)

or :

"Veuillez agréer, Messieurs, (...)," (going on with this for three more lines at least, because whatever shorter would be seen as (very) impolite.) <quite formal>

a quite informal letter final could be:

"Bien à vous,"

Though the latter is rather informal--and because of that most probably wouldn't suit for business letters--mark the use of "vous".

Vriendelijke groet,

The English version uses the formal form "you, your etc." rather than the informal "thee, thou, thine etc.". Admittedly the informal is almost obsolete except in some rural areas, and for some when talking to God.

>16 ringman:

That's interesting indeed.

Because the informal form is the very same as the very formal form at once, as e.g. in : "Thou shall not kill" -- in Dutch : "Gij zult niet doden".

If it gets to be a problem, perhaps there could be a tu or vous option in the problem languages.