Pope Francis orders review of new Mass translation rules
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2John5918
Incidentally there is a whole LT thread on the new English translation (Thoughts on the new translation of the Roman Missal?), but I believe the pope's new instruction doesn't only refer to English.
3John5918
STRONG LANGUAGE
DON’T GET YOUR HOPES UP
Both from The Tablet. I think they're both "premium" content, which means you need to register to read them, but registration is free and straightforward.
DON’T GET YOUR HOPES UP
Both from The Tablet. I think they're both "premium" content, which means you need to register to read them, but registration is free and straightforward.
4LesMiserables
Latin was fine. You see, this is how we have problems. Universal language doesn't have ambiguity.
5John5918
>4 LesMiserables: Universal language doesn't have ambiguity.
But Latin is in fact anything but universal because hardly anyone understands it. I'd say that is pretty ambiguous in terms of understanding and practising one's faith - doing it in a language one doesn't understand.
But Latin is in fact anything but universal because hardly anyone understands it. I'd say that is pretty ambiguous in terms of understanding and practising one's faith - doing it in a language one doesn't understand.
6LesMiserables
>5 John5918:
Two things.
First of all, the laity don't need to know it. All they need to know is that it carries the Sacrifice of the Mass within it which is shared universally whether attending Mass in Glasgow or Gabon. Only requirement is to assist at Mass by pious responses where indicated and a spiritual communion with the proceedings.
Second, despite #1, we all could learn Latin if we desired. nothing stopping anyone.
Two things.
First of all, the laity don't need to know it. All they need to know is that it carries the Sacrifice of the Mass within it which is shared universally whether attending Mass in Glasgow or Gabon. Only requirement is to assist at Mass by pious responses where indicated and a spiritual communion with the proceedings.
Second, despite #1, we all could learn Latin if we desired. nothing stopping anyone.
7John5918
>6 LesMiserables: the laity don't need to know it
What can one say? Read Vatican II?
we all could learn Latin if we desired
Well, first of all, we couldn't. There are many people with no aptitude for languages. And older people find it more difficult to learn new languages - I was fluent in Arabic and Nuer in my younger days but now, in my sixties, I am really struggling to learn Kiswahili and Maasai.
Secondly, why should we? What is so special about Latin? It has not always been the language of the church. Why should people have to express their faith in a foreign language?
What can one say? Read Vatican II?
we all could learn Latin if we desired
Well, first of all, we couldn't. There are many people with no aptitude for languages. And older people find it more difficult to learn new languages - I was fluent in Arabic and Nuer in my younger days but now, in my sixties, I am really struggling to learn Kiswahili and Maasai.
Secondly, why should we? What is so special about Latin? It has not always been the language of the church. Why should people have to express their faith in a foreign language?
8LesMiserables
>7 John5918:
Why?
Because it is the language of the Church.
Why? That is the devil's interrogative.
He only knows two words.
Why & No.
Why?
Because it is the language of the Church.
Why? That is the devil's interrogative.
He only knows two words.
Why & No.
9John5918
>8 LesMiserables: Because it is the language of the Church.
Not according the most recent Vatican Council, in which the church specifically approves the use of the vernacular, for many good reasons. At a certain point in history it became the main language of the church, but there were others before and no doubt there will be others later.
Why? That is the devil's interrogative.
Quite the opposite. As Dom Helder Camara said, "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist". I suppose one could say that "Why?" is a central facet of Catholic Social Thought, but more so, a central facet of faith. Are we supposed to be blind automatons, or are we supposed to try to understand our faith? Understanding comes through asking "Why?"
Not according the most recent Vatican Council, in which the church specifically approves the use of the vernacular, for many good reasons. At a certain point in history it became the main language of the church, but there were others before and no doubt there will be others later.
Why? That is the devil's interrogative.
Quite the opposite. As Dom Helder Camara said, "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist". I suppose one could say that "Why?" is a central facet of Catholic Social Thought, but more so, a central facet of faith. Are we supposed to be blind automatons, or are we supposed to try to understand our faith? Understanding comes through asking "Why?"
11LesMiserables
>9 John5918:
As Dom Helder Camara said...
You are as well to quote Coco the Clown, we might get more sense.
Dom Helder Camara: Marxist, Liberation Theologian, Modernist. Like many misguided prelates, he forgot that his purpose was to save souls and focused instead on trying to change the world.
As Dom Helder Camara said...
You are as well to quote Coco the Clown, we might get more sense.
Dom Helder Camara: Marxist, Liberation Theologian, Modernist. Like many misguided prelates, he forgot that his purpose was to save souls and focused instead on trying to change the world.
12timspalding
>4 LesMiserables:
Latin isn't a universal language. It's at best the particular language of the Roman rite. Certainly the mass was said in Aramaic first, and Greek second. As for the mass, it's unclear if Latin was third or not, but within a few centuries of the Gospel, the mass was also in Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Georgian, Gothic, Ethiopic, Caucasian Albanian, Slavonic and so forth. Certainly the Divine Liturgy of St. James, in Greek and Syriac, are older than the earliest Latin liturgies that come down to us.
Most of the early church's writings were in Greek, not Latin—the First Latin writer of any consequence was Tertullian, a Montanist heretic, never sainted. The first Seven Councils were held in Greek, their proceedings (like the Nicene Creed) in Greek too. Even the Roman church didn't start out using Latin, but in Greek—witnesses the kyrie eleison, not to mention Paul's letters. It wasn't until about 200 that the Roman church was using Latin. The notion that Latin is simply "the language of the church" isn't even an accurate description of the troglodyte Catholicism you claim to represent.
As for ambiguous--you clearly do not actually know Latin. Latin is no more perfect or unambiguous as any other language. Besides, for all its gifts, anyone who knows Greek immediately sees that Jerome's translation is less rich and expressive than the original.
Latin isn't a universal language. It's at best the particular language of the Roman rite. Certainly the mass was said in Aramaic first, and Greek second. As for the mass, it's unclear if Latin was third or not, but within a few centuries of the Gospel, the mass was also in Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Georgian, Gothic, Ethiopic, Caucasian Albanian, Slavonic and so forth. Certainly the Divine Liturgy of St. James, in Greek and Syriac, are older than the earliest Latin liturgies that come down to us.
Most of the early church's writings were in Greek, not Latin—the First Latin writer of any consequence was Tertullian, a Montanist heretic, never sainted. The first Seven Councils were held in Greek, their proceedings (like the Nicene Creed) in Greek too. Even the Roman church didn't start out using Latin, but in Greek—witnesses the kyrie eleison, not to mention Paul's letters. It wasn't until about 200 that the Roman church was using Latin. The notion that Latin is simply "the language of the church" isn't even an accurate description of the troglodyte Catholicism you claim to represent.
As for ambiguous--you clearly do not actually know Latin. Latin is no more perfect or unambiguous as any other language. Besides, for all its gifts, anyone who knows Greek immediately sees that Jerome's translation is less rich and expressive than the original.
13LesMiserables
>12 timspalding:
troglodyte Catholicism
You clearly do not practice what you (TOS) preach. Tim, I'm afraid with you, there is always an 'ad hominem' just waiting to roll of your tongue.
For that matter, as I have done for quite some time now, and only communicate directly with you to reiterate the pints, that I feel it pointless to attempt any discussion with you.
It only ends in finger pointing. Perhaps you have a dominant 'melancholic' humor which in combination with a choleric tendency, propels you to repeat a certain tack? I don't know, but let's just agree to disagree on just about everything.
troglodyte Catholicism
You clearly do not practice what you (TOS) preach. Tim, I'm afraid with you, there is always an 'ad hominem' just waiting to roll of your tongue.
For that matter, as I have done for quite some time now, and only communicate directly with you to reiterate the pints, that I feel it pointless to attempt any discussion with you.
It only ends in finger pointing. Perhaps you have a dominant 'melancholic' humor which in combination with a choleric tendency, propels you to repeat a certain tack? I don't know, but let's just agree to disagree on just about everything.
14timspalding
>10 John5918:
We'll see where this goes. It may be too late for English--it would be too disruptive to try a third translation in the near term. Perhaps they can change the trickier stuff, especially the collects, but I fear the responses are going to have to stay the same.
We'll see where this goes. It may be too late for English--it would be too disruptive to try a third translation in the near term. Perhaps they can change the trickier stuff, especially the collects, but I fear the responses are going to have to stay the same.
15timspalding
>13 LesMiserables:
On the contrary, I didn't call you a troglodyte, but your Catholicism. Perhaps we can agree that we are heretics--me in wrongly thinking that recent Popes are popes and councils councils, you in separating yourself from the church, its Popes and councils.
On the contrary, I didn't call you a troglodyte, but your Catholicism. Perhaps we can agree that we are heretics--me in wrongly thinking that recent Popes are popes and councils councils, you in separating yourself from the church, its Popes and councils.
16LesMiserables
>15 timspalding:
You see Tim, more knifing.
Regardless, I'll sign off and leave this group again (as a result of your constant harassment) with a quote from ++Ponzo on the doctrinal weight of Vatican II.
"This is certainly not a later conclusion on our part, but it was already clear at the time of the Council. The General Secretary of the Council, Cardinal Pericle Felici, declared on 16 November 1964: “This holy synod defines only that as being binding for the Church what it declares explicitly to be such with regard to Faith and Morals.” Only those texts assessed by the Council Fathers as being binding are to be accepted as such. That has not been later invented by “the Vatican,” but it is written in the official files themselves."
In other words, the poisonous elements that have been distilled and bottled by VII, need not be swallowed by the faithful. They are not doctrinally binding; they are in fact 'ideas' to facilitate pastoral efficacy (irony).
And as I have stated before, I acknowledge the Ecumenical Council of Vatican II, accept everything that has promulgated by the Council that is in line with the faith, but wholeheartedly reject the novelties.
I also reject the spurious claim that I do not accept the Pope as Pope. I accept all Popes as being the legitimate rightful Pontiffs, including every Pope from John XXIII through to Pope Francis.
Over and out.
You see Tim, more knifing.
Regardless, I'll sign off and leave this group again (as a result of your constant harassment) with a quote from ++Ponzo on the doctrinal weight of Vatican II.
"This is certainly not a later conclusion on our part, but it was already clear at the time of the Council. The General Secretary of the Council, Cardinal Pericle Felici, declared on 16 November 1964: “This holy synod defines only that as being binding for the Church what it declares explicitly to be such with regard to Faith and Morals.” Only those texts assessed by the Council Fathers as being binding are to be accepted as such. That has not been later invented by “the Vatican,” but it is written in the official files themselves."
In other words, the poisonous elements that have been distilled and bottled by VII, need not be swallowed by the faithful. They are not doctrinally binding; they are in fact 'ideas' to facilitate pastoral efficacy (irony).
And as I have stated before, I acknowledge the Ecumenical Council of Vatican II, accept everything that has promulgated by the Council that is in line with the faith, but wholeheartedly reject the novelties.
I also reject the spurious claim that I do not accept the Pope as Pope. I accept all Popes as being the legitimate rightful Pontiffs, including every Pope from John XXIII through to Pope Francis.
Over and out.
17timspalding
>16 LesMiserables:
Oh, I'm sorry, I confused you again with Joan's Knight. So I apologize for the sedevacantist criticism.
Oh, I'm sorry, I confused you again with Joan's Knight. So I apologize for the sedevacantist criticism.
18John5918
>11 LesMiserables: he forgot that his purpose was to save souls and focused instead on trying to change the world
Er, how about trying to bring about God's kingdom? Sounds to me a bit like changing the world.
PS: I'm a little shocked at your bitter and rather uncharitable armchair criticism of Camara. Sometimes one has to walk in a person's shoes for a while before judging.
Er, how about trying to bring about God's kingdom? Sounds to me a bit like changing the world.
PS: I'm a little shocked at your bitter and rather uncharitable armchair criticism of Camara. Sometimes one has to walk in a person's shoes for a while before judging.
19John5918
>14 timspalding:
In the short term, many would be happy simply to go back to the recently replaced English translation. If I'm a little distracted I still find my muscle memory comes out with the old English responses occasionally - we changed to the new ones a bit later than most, and I don't always go to mass in English*, so I haven't had so much practice with the new responses.
But yes, changing the collects (and arguably the Eucharistic Prayers) to something a bit more intelligible would be a start. Most of the responses are not too bad and we could live with them - "And with your spirit" is clumsy but has a nice ring to it.
* I hasten to add that my non-English mass attendance is in living languages such as Arabic and Kiswahili.
In the short term, many would be happy simply to go back to the recently replaced English translation. If I'm a little distracted I still find my muscle memory comes out with the old English responses occasionally - we changed to the new ones a bit later than most, and I don't always go to mass in English*, so I haven't had so much practice with the new responses.
But yes, changing the collects (and arguably the Eucharistic Prayers) to something a bit more intelligible would be a start. Most of the responses are not too bad and we could live with them - "And with your spirit" is clumsy but has a nice ring to it.
* I hasten to add that my non-English mass attendance is in living languages such as Arabic and Kiswahili.
20timspalding
test
21John5918
I've come back to this thread after a couple of years as it only really struck me last Sunday that at least in our small village chapel the Kiswahili response to "The Lord be with you" is still "And also with you", not "And with your spirit". I wonder if that is true in other languages? Or is it just that the "new" Kiswahili missal hasn't yet penetrated to the outstations. We found in South Sudan that it was a financial and logistical nightmare trying to get the new missals out to all the relevant places.
>14 timspalding: It may be too late for English--it would be too disruptive to try a third translation in the near term
Re-reading that, I recall a conversation I had with an elderly Italian nun around the time of the new translation. "You English-speakers make such a fuss over a change in the translation," she said. "We've already changed the Italian translation several times in the last forty years!"
>14 timspalding: It may be too late for English--it would be too disruptive to try a third translation in the near term
Re-reading that, I recall a conversation I had with an elderly Italian nun around the time of the new translation. "You English-speakers make such a fuss over a change in the translation," she said. "We've already changed the Italian translation several times in the last forty years!"
222wonderY
I think it's the angel Uriel in Ghost Story that corrects Harry Dresden: “You’ve got it backward, Harry. You are a soul, you have a body.”
eta: I see that this is to be credited to C. S. Lewis, and I presume Uriel hes read Lewis.
eta: I see that this is to be credited to C. S. Lewis, and I presume Uriel hes read Lewis.
23John5918
Not strictly on-topic in this thread, but interesting that even the 1962 Latin missal is being revised.
Doctrinal congregation adds saints, new prefaces to 1962 Roman Missal (Crux)
The Vatican doctrinal office announced the optional use of seven eucharistic prefaces as well as the celebration of the feast days of recently canonized saints in the “extraordinary” form of the Mass. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith published two decrees March 25 that complete “the mandate given by Pope Benedict XVI” to the former Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei,” the Vatican said...
One decree allowed the use of seven new eucharistic prefaces that could be optionally used for the feasts of saints, votive Masses or “ad hoc” celebrations...
The other decree allowed the optional celebration of the feast days of saints canonized after 1962. It also allowed for the possibility of honoring saints named in the future...
Doctrinal congregation adds saints, new prefaces to 1962 Roman Missal (Crux)
The Vatican doctrinal office announced the optional use of seven eucharistic prefaces as well as the celebration of the feast days of recently canonized saints in the “extraordinary” form of the Mass. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith published two decrees March 25 that complete “the mandate given by Pope Benedict XVI” to the former Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei,” the Vatican said...
One decree allowed the use of seven new eucharistic prefaces that could be optionally used for the feasts of saints, votive Masses or “ad hoc” celebrations...
The other decree allowed the optional celebration of the feast days of saints canonized after 1962. It also allowed for the possibility of honoring saints named in the future...
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