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Sedevacante & The One True Catholic Church (contued) Part VIII

Catholic Tradition

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Edited: Jul 23, 12:28pm Top

This message has been deleted by its author.

Jul 23, 12:21pm Top

I guess....if I wish to communicate with John....I am forced to continue this topic!

Jul 23, 12:25pm Top

John 20:22-23- “And when He Jesus had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’”

Jul 23, 12:29pm Top

Saint Athanasius, to whom it was objected, "You have the bishops against you," answered with Faith: "that proves that they are all against the Church."

- Saint Athanasius (ca. 296-373)

Jul 26, 12:41pm Top

et nolite conformari huic saeculo sed reformamini in novitate sensus vestri ut probetis quae sit voluntas Dei bona et placens et perfecta

Jul 30, 8:31am Top

“To establish the sacrilegious doctrine of his primacy over the English Church and the Anglican Sect, Henry VIII had to put to death two cardinals, three archbishops, eighteen bishops and arch-deacons, five hundred priests, sixty superiors of religious houses, fifty canons… and an immense number both of the gentry and people. He confiscated to the crown, and distributed among his favorites, the property of six hundred and forty-five monasteries and ninety colleges…”

Edited: Jul 30, 9:57am Top

>6 Joansknight:

Interesting statistics. As an English Catholic of course we grew up with stories of the English martyrs. My Catholic grammar school was named after one, Campion, and the school houses and classes had names such as Fisher, Gerard, Southwell, Garnet and More. Margaret Clitheroe was another well known name. But I'd never seen the total figures articulated like this. Of course it also has to be acknowledged that we murdered a lot of Protestants during the same era.

Jul 30, 10:01am Top

>7 johnthefireman: I agree....

Jul 30, 10:04am Top

>7 johnthefireman: Wait....did I really say that!? Are you not going to ask me why I had to travel by train so often as a child!?

Jul 30, 10:28am Top

>7 johnthefireman: I guess you went to bed....

Jul 30, 1:26pm Top

>10 Joansknight:

Not to bed. I'm in DC at the moment accompanying one of my Sudanese Catholic bishops. We were at State Department this morning, going to USAID this afternoon. Yesterday we were on the Hill, after a morning meeting with a retired US bishop. Last week we were in New York for meetings in and around the UN.

Jul 30, 8:15pm Top

With reference to Joansknight's post number 144 in the older version of this thread:

Vatican: Bones found at cemetery do not belong to missing woman (NCR)

the results of a morphological analysis of bones and bone fragments found at an ossuary in a Vatican cemetery concluded that none belonged to Emanuela Orlandi, a young Italian woman who has been missing for more than 30 years.

Giovanni Arcudi, the forensic anthropologist who led the scientific investigation of the remains found at the Vatican's Teutonic Cemetery, "did not find any bone structure dating back to the period after the end of the 1800s," the Vatican said...

Aug 2, 5:34am Top

>11 johnthefireman: Too bad you can not come to Michigan....

Aug 2, 6:27am Top

>13 Joansknight:

Yes, it was a hectic and busy trip. The only diversion I managed was a day birdwatching in Delaware with a US friend. We did manage to phone a Sudanese friend in Michigan, though.

Aug 2, 12:29pm Top

>14 johnthefireman: Sure....make me jealous!

Aug 4, 3:55am Top

You have been told . . . what is good
And what the Lord requires of you:
Only to do the right and to love goodness,
And to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:8)

"This is the Christian vocation of the laity in the world. Today and every day. It is not an easy vocation for there are temptations to flow in other directions, to leave our own course and follow the so-called “main-stream,” a stream that appears large and exciting but eventually peters out into nothingness. . . ." (Dr. Diana L. Hayes, professor emerita of systematic theology at Georgetown University, link)

Aug 4, 4:00am Top

"At their most mature levels, religions have a common goal: union with all beings and with God. Unfortunately, many religions and Christian denominations have over-emphasized differences and claimed that their particular brand is superior to others. Jesus didn’t come to start another religion but to reveal God’s presence in all of us. The Christian name for the universal incarnation is Christ, but it is known by innumerable other names.

Leaders of the Catholic Church have acknowledged the perennial and pervasive nature of truth. For example, the Second Vatican Council teaches that all peoples comprise a single community and share the same origin, “for God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth. One also is their final goal: God.” (1) The declaration goes on to praise indigenous religions, Hinduism, and Buddhism as they “reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all {people},” and states “the Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions.” (2)" (Fr Richard Rohr)

1. Second Vatican Council, “Nostra Aetate (In Our Time): Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions,” (October 28, 1965), 1.

2. Ibid., 2.

Aug 7, 3:31am Top

"It’s not enough to have wonderful theories about God. Authentic mystical encounter radically changes us and our way of living—our politics, relationships, economics..."

Richard Rohr, link

Aug 11, 11:34am Top

Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274), quoting Ambrose (another Doctor of the Church, 340–397), “If it is true, it is always from the one Holy Spirit.”

(Thomas Aquinas, De Veritate, q. 1, a. 8. Also Summa Theologia I-II, q. 109, a. 1, ad 1. The statement “Omne verum, a quocumque dicatur, a Spiritu Sancto est” is recorded in Patres Latini, 17, 245; today, the unknown author is called Ambrosiaster.)

Aug 12, 9:49am Top

>19 johnthefireman: I love that quote from Ambrose. I've seen it translated "Whatever is true is ours."

Edited: Aug 12, 11:18am Top

>20 2wonderY:

Indeed. And it's echoed in the Vatican II document Nostra Aetate, reminding us that whatever is true and good in other religions is to be respected.

The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all {people}... The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons {and daughters}, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men {and women}...

Nostra Aetate, 2.

Edited to include quote.

Aug 16, 1:24pm Top

Pope Pius XI (1923): “… the heresies begotten by the Protestant Reformation. It is in these heresies that we discover the beginnings of that apostasy of mankind from the Church, the sad and disastrous effects of which are deplored, even to the present hour, by every fair mind.” (Rerum omnium pertabationem #4, Jan. 26, 1923)

Aug 20, 11:56am Top

Well the only question then is what is holy and what is true? What, specifically, is meant by that? This is a problem in some religions that reject Christ and the Trinity and even have blasphemous things to say about them (as is the case with Islam and Judaism). If the good things are just natural goods, such as be nice to others, then to quote the saviour even the pagans do that (Mt 5:48). Apart from the vagueness of Nostra Aetate there's the problem that it's a major rupture with Tradition. If Christ is the Way, the Logos and the Life why would a sincere Catholic want to deprive someone of that path? Vatican II was a disaster, it achieved none of its aims. Unless its aim was to undermine people's faith in Jesus Christ and His Church.

Edited: Aug 20, 12:23pm Top

>23 liamfoley: Vatican II was a disaster, it achieved none of its aims

I wouldn't say it achieved none of its aims, but I think it definitely under-achieved. While in my experience it was broadly welcomed by the punters in the pews as well as by the bishops (who were part of it) and a whole generation of priests, nevertheless it was resisted by a small but vocal wing of the Catholic Church, and they succeeded in slowing down the reform, arguably abetted by Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI. Thank God we now have a pope who seems more open to the spirit of reform.

Probably out of date now, but I recall an excellent book by Michael Winter entitled Whatever happened to Vatican II? written about twenty years after the end of the council, arguing that while superficial reforms had been implemented, much of the deeper stuff was still pending.

Aug 22, 4:01pm Top

Hope. It's a simple word and yet can mean so much to anyone going through a difficult time. It can mean the difference between hanging on and giving up. It can mean a tiny smile in the face of a devastating diagnosis. It's one word with no true definition — hope can mean anything you want it to.

Edited: Aug 23, 12:30am Top

>25 Joansknight:

Thank you for sharing. It's a word I hear often from my South Sudanese colleagues as their decades of conflict and suffering often seems endless. I think they would agree with you that, "It can mean the difference between hanging on and giving up". As they sometimes say to me, "We hope because we have no other alternative".

Aug 23, 1:33pm Top

>26 johnthefireman: You have no idea....

Edited: Aug 25, 1:32pm Top

>28 Joansknight:

Don't forget that people don't join the seminary to automatically become priests. They join to discern whether or not they have a vocation to the priesthood. Many seminarians leave (or are asked to leave) for all sorts of reasons, and that has always been the case, even in the pre-1958 and pre-Vatican II Church.

Aug 25, 12:53pm Top

>29 johnthefireman: Hope is also a prayer....

Aug 25, 1:34pm Top

>30 Joansknight:

Indeed it is, although I'm not sure how that relates to >29 johnthefireman:. Seems more connected with >25 Joansknight:, >26 johnthefireman: and >27 Joansknight:.

Aug 25, 2:58pm Top

>31 johnthefireman: A miracle....would be more appropriate....than hope....

Aug 26, 2:40am Top

>32 Joansknight:

Hope in a miracle? And prayers...

Aug 26, 2:45am Top

I wasn't sure where to post the following, but I posted it here because I feel that some of the links posted by Joansknight fall into the category of "weaponising", as the article calls it, ie purporting to be about an issue but actually just an excuse to attack and undermine the pope. Incidentally Crux could not really be considered a "liberal" source, although neither is it extreme right wing.

Case of papal aide captures risks of ‘weaponizing’ sex abuse charges (Crux)

if a cleric is doctrinally and politically suspect, at least in this group’s eyes, then there’s likely moral corruption too.

In other words, what one might call the “weaponization” of clerical sexual abuse charges as part of the wars of culture in Catholicism is nothing new. Decisions to lodge such charges or to make them public, as well as whether people are inclined to believe or reject them, often are tied up with politics, try as reasonable souls might to remain objective...

The attacks... while ostensibly justified in the name of the truth, in reality are motivated by “other ends” - specifically, they said, the goal is “to undermine the credibility of Pope Francis, sowing doubts and suggesting that his teaching and his actions are marked by an incorrect choice of collaborators.”

What’s really going on, the bishops assert, is an effort “to delegitimize a pope who has clearly affirmed that poverty and the destruction of our common home both have their roots in an unbridled economy devoid of humanity.”

The bishops said the reports stem “from certain groups that want to ignore the moral value of the papal magisterium, because they have a different intent”...

Aug 28, 5:41pm Top

>34 johnthefireman: For one to attack the pope....there has to be a pope....>33 johnthefireman: not that you care....I am in need of hope....prayers....and a miracle....

Aug 28, 5:42pm Top

Pope Leo XIII (1886): “Everyone knows how inimical to virtue these times are and how the Church is attacked. We have much to fear amid such dangers, lest a shaken faith languish even where it has taken strong and deep roots. It is enough to recall rationalism and naturalism, those deadly sources of evil whose teachings are everywhere freely distributed. We must then add the many allurements of corruption: the opposition to or open defection from the Church by public officials, the bold obstinacy of secret societies, here and there a curriculum for the education of youth without regard for God.” (Quod multum #3)

Edited: Aug 29, 8:43am Top

>35 Joansknight:

Two issues in this post. If you are claiming (as I know you often do) that there is no pope (sede vacante), then of course we disagree fundamentally and you are out of step with the Roman Catholic Church.

If you are in need of prayers and a miracle, then of course you have my prayers. Why do you assume I don't care? You are often in my prayers. This morning at mass the archbishop invited us to remember all those who have asked for our prayers, and I would include you in that.

Aug 29, 8:36am Top

>35 Joansknight: I too am keeping you in prayer. May love and blessings rain down on you.

Sep 1, 2:34pm Top

Pope Leo XIII: “The Church, founded on these principles and mindful of her office, has done nothing with greater zeal and endeavor than she has displayed in guarding the integrity of the faith. Hence she regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own.” (Satis Cognitum # 9, June 29, 1896)

Edited: Sep 5, 2:29am Top

"I reflected on why people are so uncomfortable when we say things like “Christ is in all things.” I’ve been accused of being a pantheist, but that’s lazy thinking, a cheap shot. I’m a panentheist. The Christian word for that is incarnationalism, the manifestation of the divine through the natural, physical, and human world. It’s a Christ-soaked world. Jesus—the Word made flesh—comes out of the world rather than into the world. Christ was here all the time. In Christ all of history and all of us are held together. And you do not have to use the word Christ to experience this radical unity!"

Fr Richard Rohr

A beautiful little reflection on the incarnation, linking also to the awe-inspiring beginning of John's Gospel, "In the beginning was the Word: the Word was with God and the Word was God... The Word became flesh and lived among us..."

Edited: Sep 9, 3:13am Top

"The face we turn toward our own unconscious is the face we turn toward the world. Read that twice! As Jesus said, “The lamp of the body is the eye” (Matthew 6:22). People who accept themselves accept others. People who hate themselves hate others. Only Divine Light gives us permission, freedom, and courage to go all the way down into our depths and meet our shadow."

Fr Richard Rohr

Sep 11, 7:01pm Top

Neque enim Petri successoribus Spiritus sanctus promissus est, ut eo revelante novam doctrinam patefacerent, sed ut eo assistente traditam per apostolos revelationem seu fidei depositum sancte custodirent et fideliter exponerent.

- Vatican Council, Constitutio Dogmatica Prima de Ecclesia Christi (Pastor Aeternus), chap. 4, De Roma

Sep 11, 7:02pm Top

Pope Pius X: “That the State must be separated from the Church is a thesis absolutely false, a most pernicious error... Hence the Roman Pontiffs have never ceased, as circumstances required, to refute and condemn the doctrine of the separation of Church and State.” (Vehementer Nos #3, Feb. 11, 1906)

Sep 18, 6:14pm Top

Pope Pius IX: “… the new heretics who call themselves ‘Old Catholics’... these schismatics and heretics... their wicked sect... these sons of darkness... their wicked faction… this deplorable sect… This sect overthrows the foundations of the Catholic religion, shamelessly rejects the dogmatic definitions of the Ecumenical Vatican Council, and devotes itself to the ruin of souls in so many ways. We have decreed and declared in Our letter of 21 November 1873 that those unfortunate men who belong to, adhere to, and support that sect should be considered as schismatics and separated from communion with the Church.” (Graves ac diuturnae #’s 1-4, March 23, 1875, on the “Old Catholics” who reject Vatican I’s definition of Papal Infallibility)

Sep 18, 11:45pm Top

>44 Joansknight:

Aren't 'Old Catholics' the ones who rejected the teachings of the First Vatican Council? If the good Pope Pius IX were alive today no doubt he would be equally condemnatory of those who reject the teachings of the Second Vatican Council.

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