****Group Read of Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel

Welcome to our thread for the February group read of Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel.

I'm so excited that the third book of this trilogy is coming out in March (at least in the U.S. - is it earlier in other countries?).

Our goal is to read (or re-read) Wolf Hall in February, Bring up the Bodies in March, and The Mirror and the Light in April. There will be separate threads for each book.

Please join in the discussion at any point. I think we should avoid any spoilers by putting the chapter number in bold at the top of any post that has a significant spoiler. For the most part, being established history, I don't think this will be a huge issue for this book.

Enjoy!

Thanks for setting this up!

Oh goody!

I am hoping to read along.

can't wait! Im in between reads right now so think I'll get a start this weekend. I have already read this book several times, so I want to avoid spoilers. Do you guys split the book up into readable chunks? or is it just free for all? I can limit my reading to keep me focused with what you all are doing and not discuss anything ahead Just let me know

Just found secondhand copies of both Wolf Hall and Bring Up The Bodies online, so hopefully they will arrive before February!
I have been meaning to get to Wolf Hall since it was released, so thank you for setting up this group read to push me along!

>5 cindydavid4: I don't think this is a structured read along. Just read (or re-read) at your own pace and if you have a "spoliery" comment, just remember to to use the spoiler html! :-)

This groop read is coming in the right year for me! I'm reading along with the Shakespeare2020Project all of the Bard's works over the course of this year so this fits right in thematically! #TudorRules ;-)

>5 cindydavid4:, >8 Tanya-dogearedcopy: I agree that just reading and commenting at our own pace is best and will lead to the best discussion. It seems this will be a relatively large group read so being too structured probably won't work. I think putting chapter headings in bold and maybe using the spoiler tag feature occasionally will be enough.

This is a reread for me as well. I read both Wolf Hall and Bring up the Bodies right when they came out so I definitely need a refresher between reading The Mirror and the Light.

Has anyone watched the series? Worth watching? Although I will wait until I have read the books first!

>11 JayneCM: I liked it!

>11 JayneCM: I got the Blu-Ray DVDs for Christmas and gave decide to wait until after reading the trilogy to watch. But this is going to be hard ‘cuz Mark Rylance ❤️

>13 Tanya-dogearedcopy: Oh yes! Have you seen this youtube video of him speaking about his career? I would love to see him do Shakespeare in person!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrZH9WmpOrw

>11 JayneCM: yes yes yes!!! It is a little slow for some reason, but the performance and adaptation is straight from the books

and I hope that someday they run the broadway production. We saw the two night show and omg it was incredible

>15 cindydavid4: I certainly did not know there was a Broadway show! I will definitely give the series a go after reading the books.

It only ran from April 9 to July 5, 2015. Starred several of the same cast from the series, including Mark Rylance. You watched it for two nights, or you could watch the entire production in one night (or rather afternoon-night) I'd love it if it got another run sometime.

I too am reading Wolf Hall while juggling a couple of other reads. I'm only on Part II right now.

I actually did not love the tv series of Wolf Hall. I thought it was fine, but didn't capture what is so excellent about the book - the literary skill. I felt the show boiled it down to the history and characterization which is admittedly wonderful, but couldn't capture the way Mantel writes. Her tone and style and the interesting literary devices she uses (time shifts, ambiguous pronouns, tone) were what make this book special to me.

I'll be interested to see what everyone else thinks! I know there are many who loved both the book and the tv series.

I just finished a book and am expecting a couple of library wait list books to come available soon, so I'm planning to start Wolf Hall tomorrow.

Anyone should feel free to start up discussion as they begin reading. Just remember to use chapter headings in bold at the start of a comment so we don't spoil any plot points for eachother.

Oh my, it is Feb 1st! So excited! Well first I should say that I orginally dismissed this book; I love historic fiction, but had gotten really tired of Tudors. But then I heard Mantel interviewed, and was intrigued. Once I started reading I was hooked and didn't come up for air till the end. This is a man who was hated for centuries. But what if there was more to the story? A man who rose above his station, ended up becoming the most powerful man in the kingdom. And then later came crashing down. Is this how it all happened?

Mantel managed to bring this man to life; I was able to visualize him and the places he went and the people he talked with. Not knowing much about him, I didn't doubt her story; nothing felt false or unrealistic here.

She had me howling with laughter, and crying, sometimes on the same page. Really one of the best historic fiction writers around (She has a book on the French Revolution A Place of Greater Safety which is challenging, but insightful read) She doesn't disappoint with the second book, so I have high hopes that this last one will be marvelous.

I do not know that much about Cromwell or Wolsley to know what is real or memorex. ( her authors note at the end is very helpful) Id love to hear from those who know so much more and can provide a different perspective as well as some good reads on the subject

BTW this book can be confusing and be a difficult read. A few hints

-sometimes its difficult to know who is speaking; much of the time if she says 'he said' its Cromwell.

-There are tons of Thomases and Elizabeths here. There is a family tree but I find her cast of characters much more helpful. She groups her cast of characters by where they are. So if you are reading about the affairs in Austin Friars, you'll see the names and description of the people who live and work in and around Cromells circle. At Westminster, all those associated with Wolsey. If you get confused turn to the cast of characters page and find the area you are reading. That might give you a better idea of who is who.

That being said, it took me a few reads to really sort it out! Esp since you have a Duke of Suffolk and a Duke of Norfolk, one of whom is also named Thomas.....

I'd love to make a list of my fave scenes, but will wait. Wanted to get this underway!!

>19 japaul22: ut couldn't capture the way Mantel writes. Her tone and style and the interesting literary devices she uses (time shifts, ambiguous pronouns, tone) were what make this book special to me.

I don't think an adaptation could capture that, except through the acting, and I think Rylance came close There are not many adaptations I like; too often they don't match the images that are already in my head from reading. Im always impressed when they come close

Ok.....did I break the thread?

My parcel arrived from Brotherhood Books with Wolf Hall and Bring Up The Bodies - finally I can get started!

I'm about half-way through. I'm not as impressed on second read as I was the first time I read it.

>24 majkia: That's interesting. I feel the opposite. This is actually my third reading of Wolf Hall (I also reread when Bring up the Bodies came out). I love the way Mantel makes the characters her own within the historical setting. I also feel like the literary tone allows me to let go of what's "true" and what's created. I read a lot of historical fiction and with some authors I get very fixated on whether they are being true to the actual history. For some reason, Mantel's writing allows me to let go of that and enjoy the ride.

What are you liking less this time?

I was really looking forward to finally reading this. It's been on my wishlist for years and i'm not sure why I never got around to it before now. I was excited to findout this morning that my library hold came in two weeks earlier than expected and started listening right away. And now I don't know if I'm going to be able to finish it. I'm really not liking this narrator and with this being such a long book, I don't think my eyes can handle a print version. Has anyone else listened to the audio? What did you think?

can you fine one with a dif narratory? that does make or break an audio book for me

>27 staci426: I'm listening to the audio also. Mine is being read by Simon Slater. I'm not sure it's the narrator, I think it might be writing style, but I admit to having issues figuring out just who is talking at times, which is throwing me out of the story periodically when I have to back up and figure out just who said what at times.

ETA: >26 This-n-That: Yeah, too many characters with the same names, makes it even harder to follow along.

My hold at the library for the audiobook version just came through (Yay!) so I hope to start listening this weekend.

>27 staci426: oh that's too bad. A narrator that grates on you can definitely ruin an audiobook.

>29 majkia: It's hard to get the gist of who's talking sometimes, even in print. There are so many Thomases! Once you get it though, it works just fine. When I reread this, I wondered why I was so confused the first time. Does the audio narrator use different voices/tone for different characters? Seems like there are several of you listening that could help eachother out.

As I said in an earlier post, usually if she says he or He said, its Cromwell. And because there are so many Thomases she often uses their title for example;

Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk, Annes Uncle (Duke of Suffolk is Charles Brandon, husband to Henry's sister Mary)

Thomas Wolsley - Archbishop of york

Thomas Moore: Royal Chancellor

Thomas Audley Speaker of the House

And use her cast of characters in the front - she groups them by location of the scene - for example

Chelsea (More)

Austin Fair (Cromwell)

Westminster (Wolsely)

At court- Thomas Howard Duke of Northfolk

clergy -Thomas Cranmer

and yeah,I cant imagine listening to this book; think it would be much harder to keep straight!

>31 japaul22: oh yes, so agreed. But tbh, Ive read enough history of the time that I knew more or less who the characters were tho I got confused sometimes too.

Was anyone else shocked by her interpretation of Thomas Moore? Many of us saw the movie or play Man for All Seasons, and remember Paul Scofield playing him as such a nobel man, who was eventually canonized by the church for his stand against Henrys divorce and his split with the church. If you havent seen it, its a must watch, for the story, the acting, and the relevance to our times now.

In the book Cromwell exposes his hypocrisy, saying one thing, doing another, time and time again, and rather lets More have it in the last scene in the tower. I can well believe either takes tho he most likely is a complex mixture of both.

>34 cindydavid4: Yes, it was a very different interpretation of Thomas More than I've seen before. I liked that about the book. One of the things I like about good historical fiction is that it creates a new, more intimate way of looking at things. After all, it's impossible to really know the character and true motivations of people who lived so long ago. So having different fictional views is both fun and broadens perspective.

I love Mantel's take on the pragmatic and observant Cromwell. I get the feeling that even while he's successful in this book he sees how quickly success can slip away. He changes loyalty on the surface but remains himself underneath.

I also love how Mantel writes the women in this book. Lady Anne, her sister Mary (a brilliant depiction!), Queen Katherine, Princess Mary, Jane Grey - they are all subtly drawn and their individual personalities come through. They are all limited by the times, but also wield power in different ways.

I agree as well as he writes Kat, Beth, Liz, Johane, Mercy and other women Cromwell has contact with. Even with Liz and Johane, they are sisters, but Mantel does not make them twins. They are complex women who just happen to be in love with the same person.

Spoiler Alert!! Part IV chapter 1

BTW this leads to one of my fav characters in the book, Johane. It took me a while when I first read the book to realize she and cromwell were having an affair (think it was during their discussion when they decide its time to stop) it was like, whoa, how did I miss that! Second read I started picking up more hints that I couldnt believe I missed the first time. That leads to a fav scene just a few pages later, when Jo comes to Cromwell asking about if they are doing easter eggs, then tells him her mom wants a special egg

Part IV Arrange Your Face

"my mother sends a message: tell your uncle for a present, I'd like a drinking cup made from the shell of a griffin's egg. Its a lion with the head and wings of a bird. Its died out now, so you can't get them anymore"

Cromwell says "ask her what color she wants"

I always tear up abit when I read that

I am listening to audio narrated by Stephen Slater and whisper syncing the kindle so that I hopefully can keep things a bit straighter that way. I've also done some reviewing of the historical times to add to my reading. So I am about 30% at this time.

I think thats a perfect compromise and hopefully helps!

Its been a bit since I have read this, but I still remember my favorite scenes and giggle with joy when we get to them A few up to part IV

-Cromwells meet up with the dutch, knowing how much that will mean to his life

-Sitting and chatting with Liz; so obvious both of them loved each other

-picking up Rafe and taking him home. Not sure it was explained why he was taken away or why his parents were ok with that. And did he get to go visit? A long and soggy ride to Liz

-being woken up in the middle o the night to see the king! all his boys were so scared

-all of his scenes with Mary B and with Jane

-who was it that saw cromwell crying in grief for his daughters, and gave him comfort

-convo between Johane and Thomas about their affair. Such honesty greif and love.

Cromwell historically is a hated man reviled for several reasons. Mantell Im sure wrote these scenes to make us feel empathy for him, to see him as a more complex person that history paints him. And perhaps allows us to excuse his actions. Its all conjecture of course as his her portrait of Thomas More (tho several of there conversations were straight from the trial)

I love her writing: he leaves hre, eye closing again, edging into marginal warmth, the small sort of sunbeam that is all february offers

>39 cindydavid4: I also like the writing about Cromwell and Liz and later his relationship with Johane. Did you notice, though, that in the second half of the book, Cromwell more often thinks of Anselma when he feels nostalgic for love?

Yes, but I love how he drifts back to Liz, missing her

So i am on the last section with More's trials. I have always admired him for following his conscience, even tho he knew what the consequence was (and was later canonized for it.) We have a few of those now couragous enough to tell truth to power, and say no, they will not accept this. Consequence now are not as dire - no executions, but surely firings and such. But the idea is still the same - there are people in all ages who have been willing to protest and refuse, people who will not sign, or who will speak out. Thank goodness for that (that being said, does depend on what side of the issue you are on!)

Even tho Martel shows a very ifferent side of More then most people know, I have to say I still admire the man. And I think deep down Cromwell felt so as well.

speakinng of cromwell, when I first read this I admired how Martel drew him for us to empathize with him, be on his side. Ive read this often enough that Im now seeing Martel actually making cromwell a saint! He can do no wrong, his staff and childre are perfect, he can do everything (wonder if he really had all those positions under Henry) Almost too good to be true.....mmmm

anyone still reading? did I chase everyone away?

I am still reading.

I finished my reread. I thought I’d try posting a few general discussion questions at the end of the month to try to spark some discussion. If anyone has any ideas for questions feel free to pm me.

nm

Finished today. Looking forward to your questions.

>48 cindydavid4: Interesting! Thanks for sharing.

I've come up with a few questions that we can discuss (or not!) to see if we can spark some discussion. I've numbered them, so please start your response with the number of the question to help us stay organized. No pressure to answer any of these, let's just see if they take us anywhere.

1) Mantel repeatedly references knowing what people "wear under their clothes" as a metaphor for the difference between what a character is on the inside vs. what they show on the outside. Which characters stood out to you as having a wide difference between the face they show to the world and what is underneath?

2) Compare and contrast our two main Thomases, Cromwell and More. How does Mantel's portrayal differ from what you learned in school or through nonfiction accounts?

3) Cromwell's travel and knowledge of languages in a time when that was unusual greatly influenced him and makes him stand out from those around him. How do you think his travel shaped his personality, political acumen, and home life?

4) Did you notice any foreshadowing that helps to set up what might happen in Bring up the Bodies and The Mirror and the Light? Are there already cracks in Cromwell's seeming dominance? Does he realize his own vulnerability? Do those around him notice it?

5) Mantel spends a lot of time developing women is the book, despite it being a time period largely devoted to men in the history books. What sorts of power do her women of various social statuses wield? How are they limited? Did you think it was an accurate portrayal of the time?

Oh my I missed this last comment!! I would like to respond, but first:

Reading the wolf hall book discussion in the Washington Post, I discovered this excellent resource The Reith Lectures: Hillary Mantel

The Reith Lectures were inaugurated in 1948 by the BBC to mark the historic contribution made to public service broadcasting by Sir John (later Lord) Reith, the corporation's first Director General.

Reith maintained that broadcasting should be a public service which enriches the intellectual and cultural life of the nation. It is in this spirit that the BBC each year invites a leading figure to deliver a series of lectures on radio. The aim is to advance public understanding and debate about significant issues of contemporary interest.

The 2017 BBC Reith Lecturer is award-winning writer Hilary Mantel. Her five lectures entitled Resurrection: The Art and Craft, focus on history’s hold on the imagination and are all available to listen to.

She lectures on topics of History, in particular related to her own writing. I found these fascinating =

Lecture 1
THE DAY IS FOR THE LIVING

Lecture 2
THE IRON MAIDEN

Lecture 3
SILENCE GRIPS THE TOWN

Lecture 4
CAN THESE BONES LIVE?

Lecture 5
ADAPTATION

Enjoy!