Group Read: Arcadia Part 6, Chapters 56-66 (End)

The end.

Or is it?

I think we can dispense with spoiler tags if you don't want to keep using them. Anyone coming here has probably read it and if they haven't, now they have been warned.

Here are links to reviews of the book when it came out in 2015 -

NY Times
Washington Post
The Guardian
Kirkus

And
Q&A with Iain Pears

And a fun booktuber's short video -
Kalanadi

>1 Bookmarque: Thanks for the links! I will check them out later this evening.

Oh my gosh! What a ride this book was!

I don’t even know what I want to say about the book other than I loved it! I do not reread books, but this one might be fun to reread to see all the connections to characters and timelines that I missed the first time. How did Pears keep track of them all?

I mentioned in another thread that, while reading Arcadia, I had kept a list of which characters showed up in each chapter. I started doing this because I was interested in trying to suss out how the companion app might have been set up. From a review of the book I found online, we know that the app navigated the book via four character threads. Those characters are Henry Lytten, Rosie Wilson, Angela Meerson, and Jay Antusson.

As a for instance, to follow Jay's narrative thread, one would read chapters 1, 2, 5, 7, 10, 15, 17, 23, 26, 29, 32, 39, 41, 47, 49, 52, 55, 56, 57, and 66, (I can't help but feel that something ends up missing there but, without the actual app, there is no way to verify).

I have attempted to list the characters in the order they appear within each chapter. I have not always listed a person if they are only mentioned in conversation by other characters. They are only listed if they play an actual part in the action, so to speak. This list will, by its very existence, contain some spoilers. I'm placing this post in the sixth and final discussion thread in the hopes that everyone that reads this will already have finished the book...

Here is the list:

• Chapter 1: Jay (Antusson), Rosie Wilson, Henry Lytten
  
• Chapter 2: Rosie, Alex Chang, Lytten, Jay
  
• Chapter 3: Jack More, Angela Meerson, Lucien Grange, Robert Hanslip
  
• Chapter 4: Chang, Jack
  
• Chapter 5: Scholar Henary, Jay
  
• Chapter 6: Lytten
  
• Chapter 7: Jay, Callan Perelson, Thenald's Nephew
  
• Chapter 8: Henary, Jaqui, Etheran
  
• Chapter 9: Angela
  
• Chapter 10: Jay, Henary, "Fortune", Jaqui's manuscript
  
• Chapter 11: Rosie, Lytten, Pamarchon
  
• Chapter 12: Lytten, Portmore, Sam Wind
  
• Chapter 13: Jack, Hanslip, Lucien
  
• Chapter 14: Chang
  
• Chapter 15: Henary, Lady Catherine, Gontal, Jay
  
• Chapter 16: Hanslip, Jack, Chang, Emily Strang
  
• Chapter 17: Pamarchon, Rosie, Jay, Henary (Rosie mistakes him for Lytten)
  
• Chapter 18: Angela, Lytten (Angela mistakes him for Lucien Grange), Portmore, Wind
  
• Chapter 19: Lytten, Wind, Portmore, Chang, Persimmon, Volkov
  
• Chapter 20: Henary, Catherine
  
• Chapter 21: Chang, Lytten
  
• Chapter 22: Angela
  
• Chapter 23: Rosie, Catherine, Jay, Henary, Renata, Beltan, Aliena, Rambert
  
• Chapter 24: Jack
  
• Chapter 25: Hanslip, Emily, Gunter
  
• Chapter 26: Pamarchon, Antros, Rosie, Jay
  
• Chapter 27: Lytten, Rosie, Angela, Sgt. Allan Maltby
  
• Chapter 28: Rosalind, Aliena, Rambert
  
• Chapter 29: Catherine, Henary, Jay, Renata
  
• Chapter 30: Jack, Sylvia, Emily
  
• Chapter 31: Rosie, Angela
  
• Chapter 32: Jay, Rambert, Henary, Catherine
  
• Chapter 33: Chang, Maltby
  
• Chapter 34: Angela, Maltby, Lytten, Wind, Volkov
  
• Chapter 35: Jay, Catherine, Kate, Callan
  
• Chapter 36: Angela, Maltby, Chang, Lytten, Hanslip, Wind
  
• Chapter 37: Rosalind, Ganimed, Aliena, A Sheperd
  
• Chapter 38: Jack, Emily
  
• Chapter 39: Jay, Kate, Callan, Pamarchon
  
• Chapter 40: Wind, Volkov, Angela, Lytten, Charles Lytten
  
• Chapter 41: Antros, Ganimed, Jay, Kate
  
• Chapter 42: Chang, Jaqui, Etheran, Henary, Callan
  
• Chapter 43: Henary, Gontal
  
• Chapter 44: Oldmanter
  
• Chapter 45: Pamarchon, Antros, Ganimed, Kate
  
• Chapter 46: Rosie, Maltby, Angela
  
• Chapter 47: Kate, Pamarchon, Rosalind, Jay, Antros
  
• Chapter 48: Jack, Sylvia, Emily, Kendred, Hanslip
  
• Chapter 49: Rosalind, Pamarchon, Jay
  
• Chapter 50: Henary, Rosalind, Gontal
  
• Chapter 51: Lytten, Wind, Maltby, Angela
  
• Chapter 52: Jay, Catherine, Callan
  
• Chapter 53: Lytten, Rosie, Angela, Wind, Maltby, Rosalind
  
• Chapter 54: Angela, Wind
  
• Chapter 55: Henary, Rosalind, Jay, Catherine, Pamarchon, Gontal, Lytten
  
• Chapter 56: Lytten, Most All of the Anterworlders
  
• Chapter 57: Lytten presides over the trial
  
• Chapter 58: Lytten speaks with Jaqui
  
• Chapter 59: Jack, Emily, Kendred, Oldmanter, Hanslip
  
• Chapter 60: Pamarchon, Rosalind, Catherine, Gontal
  
• Chapter 61: Lytten, Chang, Rosalind
  
• Chapter 62: Rosie, Lytten, Rosalind, Chang, Antros, Angela
  
• Chapter 63: Angela, Lytten, Aunt Gertie, Wind
  
• Chapter 64: Angela, Rosie
  
• Chapter 65: Jack, Emily, Hanslip, Oldmanter
  
• Chapter 66: Jay, Henary, Catherine, Pamarchon, Gontal, Antros, Rosalind, Emily
  

Please let me know if you find any errors or omissions and I will update this post accordingly.

Okay, I've finished it but I do wish the author/publisher had made the commitment to continue support for the app, particularly as the app supposedly included an additional 60,000 words to the 180,000 words of the printed volume. I'm annoyed that I can't now find out what else might have been part of the Story.

I was truly gulping down the final chapters until there were only about 30 pages left and then I just wanted to slow down considerably because the book would then be OVER. (And I couldn't grab the app to see what from the author's perspective, I might have missed, with regard to the important narrative threads and cross-overs. And I wanted to do that.) Which brings me to a question for you, @ScoLgo.

According to write-ups of Arcadia when originally published, the app followed 10 narrative strands. Based on your Chapter List in #4, who do you think those ten might be? Based on my initial reading, I've worked out the following as key paths or stories to follow in the narrative structure, but I'm short several names or story lines. My definite inclusions would be Jay, Lytten, Rosie, Catherine, and Angela. Then I think I'd include Alex Chang, Jack More, Callen Perelson, and Pamarchon. That brings the count up to 9, but I'm still short one narrative thread. Given the work that you just did on the chapter layouts, do you have any thoughts on that? Of course, the fact that some of the identities overlap just adds to the struggle. Would Professor Lytten count as three different people (Lytten, Henary, and Lucien Grange) or just as one?

>5 jillmwo: It's a great question. I'm sorry to say I don't have many answers. Regarding the 10 narrative strands, they are listed at the 0:21 mark in the YooToob video linked here. However, they are not listed by name but rather by occupation - which leaves a bit of ambiguity. For instance, who is The Policeman? Maltby or Sam Wind? Or Jack More? And which tale is Rosie's? Is she The Wanderer?

I don't think Lytten would count as Lucien Grange since Grange turns out to be Charles Lytten, Henry's grandfather from Angela's time.

From a first look at the ebook I just got from the library, there is no additional content or different organizing structure than the hardcover.

>7 Bookmarque: Yeah, that is what I read. There was bupkis added...

In chapter 56, Rosie gives Henry a hard time about causing all the problems because he never finished it. I wondered if this could be a poke at GRRM.

And the heavenly odor of sanctity that is Old Spice!

One thing that hit home with me was the nuclear bomb being sent back to the 1960s. There was no last minute attempt to save the 1960s, and if there had been it would have prevented both the Anterworld and Angela's worlds existing. It struck me that we were all happy to see Anterworld continue and that the destruction of the 1960s (70s, 80s 90s, whenever) that was a prerequisite for Anterworld to survive was pushed to the back of our minds. This re-enforced the concept of changes in time rippling forward and backwards, but also brought home the concept of decisions having consequences.

It struck me as a bit like stories in which the reader ends up rooting for a killer, such as Rebecca.

>9 Jim53: I was having similar thoughts while reading Chapter 66! Pay attention to detail in your worldbuilding - you never know when it may become essential!

And the Old Spice remark was hilarious!

>11 Sakerfalcon:
It was. There were many humorous comments along the way. For once I did not write on my book or underline the funny parts. I snapped some sections on my phone and have to look over them to remember what they were.

At various times, while Lady Catherine/Kate was in or near the foreground, I wondered whether she might be Angela, who had put herself through to an earlier time after seeing how things were going. It's feeling less likely now, but I'm not quite done yet.

Hey, don't read this post if you're not finished reading yet!

Did anyone else have trouble processing this chicken & egg scenario? If Persimmon's dystopia was spawned by Angela's machine because of its proximity to Persimmon's manuscript (along with Lytton's,) then how did Angela even exist to create the time machine to travel back to Lytton's & Persimmon's time to begin with? Or was the resemblance between his grim story and Angela's timeline a coincidence. It was remarked on by Henry Lytton at one point, so I don't think it was a coincidence, but perhaps it just influenced it...

>14 clamairy:
I thought Persimmon was going to be bigger than he turned out. I thought he was going to be the bad guy. In my reading of the book I think Lytton’s being aware of Persimmon’s world rules acted as a seed in his mind that would ultimately lead to Oldmanter’s (I hope I got that correct) world.

It looks like the Storytellers of Anterworld would split into Conservatives following The Story literally, and Liberals who would follow The Story as a general guide as intended by The Creator, Lytton, as he revealed to them during his visit.

Over time the ebb and flow of politics would see one side dominate and then the other.

>14 clamairy: Hey everybody! Don't read this reply either...

Yes, I had a spot of trouble with that as well. Congruent to your point, I also was wondering..

If Oldmanter sending a bomb back from Angela's origin time destroyed Lytten's time and created the Anterworld of the future, then what happened to Angela's origin point? It was explicitly stated that Emily was sent into the far future, where she ended up in Anterworld. So if time is linear, (and perhaps it's not), and Point A is Lytten's time, Point B is Angela's time, and Point C is Anterworld, then it seems that we went directly from Point A to Point C as a result of the bomb. I thought the people in Angela's time, (Hanslip, More, Oldmanter, et. al.), had worked out that they were dealing with time travel as opposed to travel to a multiverse. If so, why would they blow up the past knowing it would destroy their present? I dunno... I must've missed something or I'm overthinking things... (again, LOL!)

>15 pgmcc: I was waiting for Persimmon to show up again as well.

>16 ScoLgo: I had those questions as well. I was under the impression that Oldmanter and his people were planning to leave for another time themselves before they sent the bomb back, but it didn't seem like that was what they did. Shouldn't they have ceased to exist once they sent it back? Or were some of the people in Anterworld the descendants of Oldmanter's people?

>17 clamairy: I went back and reviewed Chapter 65...

I see that Oldmanter had not figured it out. He and Jack apparently thought they were still working with separate worlds and time travel. On page 581 Emily asks Jack, (about Hanslip):

"Are they going to kill him?"
"Yes."
"Then it means that he has grasped that it doesn't matter if they do or not. He is going to die anyway if he doesn't come with me. Why don't you come instead?"
"You must be joking."
"I really do know what I'm doing."

So, Emily and Hanslip were the only people in that timeline that understood that destruction was imminent.

>18 ScoLgo: Ahhh, thank you!

>19 clamairy: ;-)

If Emily does in fact go forward in time to Anterworld (as I recall, there was a question about whether it could be done), that suggests that Rosie went directly from her time in "our" world, through the magical pergola, to a time even further into the future (since Emily had been there a while). Does it make sense* that the default arrival time for travelers from the wardrobe, sorry, basement, when not only Rosie but also Henry appear, would be at that far future time? Or was Emily actually sent into the past? Do we think the bomb plan worked, and the world of our own timeline was de-peopled and available to start over?

*Perhaps too much to hope for, I know.

>18 ScoLgo: Thank you for this. You may have preserved my sanity!

I finished last night. I was very pleased with the final reveal, which I had belatedly guessed at. I am trying not to think about how the timelines and events relate to each other in terms of cause and effect because it makes my brain hurt, but on a superficial level I found the ultimate conclusion satisfying. I really like the parallel between Rosie preparing to work with Angela in "our" 1960s world, and Rosalind helping Emily/Catherine in Anterwold.

I very much enjoyed the trial scene, where Gontal said all the correct things in the appropriate style according to tradition, then Jay blasts the tradition to pieces and sows the seeds for a new way forward for Anterwold. I agree with >15 pgmcc: 's prediction of what will happen as a result of this.

So was Angela's/Hanslip's/et al. world created by the machine from Persimmon's story? Is there such a thing as a real world? I'm reminded of Redshirts in a way...

>23 Jim53: I rather like Peter's take (>15 pgmcc:) on where that timeline came from. However, it does create a bit of a chicken & egg scenario with Angela and her maths coming from there to build the pergola in Lytten's time, (as first brought up in >14 clamairy:). Which came first? Kinda makes my brain hurt, (in a good way).

Well, that was a wild ride. I listened to it, so I might have missed this part, but I don't understand what happened to Oldmanter and his cronies (and everyone else left alive in that time/place) after they sent Angela's daughter through the machine. I mean, Oldmanter said to Jack More "You'll find out in 20 seconds." Anyway, I borrowed the ebook from the library and have started to reread a few of the chapters where I may have missed an important fact or three.

Are we still waiting for anyone to finish this and discuss it, or can I unpin the main thread?

>26 clamairy:
I’m good.

Finished! Thanks everyone for the comments and discussion!

The permanent link is now here:

https://wiki.librarything.com/index.php/Groups:The_Green_Dragon/Group_book_discu...

No prob, clam. Am home from a crazy weekend getaway and haven't quite finished the book, but you guys go!!

>30 Bookmarque: Oh no! I'm so sorry. I can pin this thread, at least.

I am done!! Got through it today and have some notes to put together, but the big plot hole still baffles me. Maybe I missed something you guys saw. Anyone know what I mean?

>32 Bookmarque: I'm not sure what aspect you might be thinking of as a plot hole. Can you clarify?

>32 Bookmarque: >33 jillmwo: I am curious about this too.

Well, now that I'm thinking about it, I think I got myself screwed up. An easy thing to do with this book.

It's about the nuclear option Oldmanter wants to take to clear some space for the Retreat people to occupy when he shifts them out of his world. Ultimately that failed because the Cuban Missile Crisis fizzled. So he didn't send anyone anywhere except for Emily who morphed into Catherine somehow. That is still unclear and weird. If she didn't have all of Angela's brain appliances and fixer-uppers, how could she live so long? Bleah. It's so weird.

The rest of the Anterwold people came from Henry's imagination made real with Angela's machine. I got hung up on the fact that they had to have come from Angela's timeline - the Retreat rebels. Sorry, my bad.

>35 Bookmarque:
My take on it was that Oldmanter did send the bomb back that triggered a nuclear war that cleared the Earth for his sending Emily there once the radiation had abated. My understanding was that the people in the 1960s doomed themselves by choosing for Anterworld to continue. For Anterworld to exist their world had to be cleared of enough people for the people Oldmanter sent back to occupy the location. By making choices for Anterworld to continue then the timeline had to change backwards to meet the earlier time and forwards to meet Oldmanter's time. Emily's/Catherine's arrival there could be long after others were sent back as the machine was not very precise on its time targets.

Alternatively, while the people initially in Anterworld came from Henry's imagination, the integrity of the timeline required other people to be created as the effect of changes to the timeline rippled outwards. Chang's appearance in Atnerworld was not the result of Henry writing him in; that was the result oe Angela's actions.

I am not saying I am right in my interpretation, but it is what I took from the story and it made perfectly good sense to me. :-)

The joy of Arcadia is that it plays with your mind and twists your thoughts back on themselves. I hope he writes another book before finally retiring. I am feeling more and more like rereading Stone's Fall.

I wasn't in the right mind space to read this now. Too many distractions. New puppy, sister-in-law visiting.... I'll need to re-read this when I can concentrate more and have fewer lengthy interrupted reading times.

>36 pgmcc: That's as good an explanation as any. It sure does twist your brain, doesn't it? If you feel like doing a Stone's Fall reading, start the thread(s) and I'll hop on, too. I love that book.

>36 pgmcc: Great explanation, Peter! This was my take on it too.

>35 Bookmarque: Regarding the bomb: We, the readers don't know which of the four dates Oldmanter chose to send the bomb. My guess is he placed the check-mark next to Beijing, 2018 since we know the Cuban Missile Crisis was averted in the 1960's. (Beijing was also the only future date remaining when the book was published. ;) Still, I missed it if the exact date 'our' world blew up was stated anywhere in the novel.

It's also possible that the bomb did not trigger full destruction... Persimmon's dystopia seemed very post-apocalyptic. There was a lot of pollution, abandoned towns/cities, people tinkering with old technology, etc. It could be that Oldmanter's time/world remained and eventually collapsed on its own due to strife and social stratification, thereby paving the way for Lytten's Anterworld to rise in its wake. The spoiler-obscured conversation in >18 ScoLgo:, between Jack More and Emily Strang seems to indicate this is not the case but that could also just be what Emily expected to happen just before being sent forward to become Lady Catherine. In other words, she could have been mistaken about Jack dying if he stayed behind.

The other point about Emily/Catherine being there for a long time before Rosalind first arrived is that time moved at a different relative rate in Anterworld. I don't know how that makes sense if it is, in fact, the same world at a future time but that was explicitly illustrated in the early chapters when Jay had aged a few years between Rosie's first two visits.

I dunno. Not everything about the book made sense to me - but I fully enjoyed reading it.

I think it's safe to unpin this one now. The link can be found in the book discussions wiki.