Silent Francis

>4 brone:

Nigerian Bishop Prays for Cessation of Violence Following Killing of Over 40 in Two Months (ACI Africa)

Bishop Wilfred Chikpa Anagbe highlights, “with a heavy heart”, the situation of the Nigerian State that has been at the center of most killings and displacements in the West African country, and prays for more peaceful days ahead... “It is with a very heavy heart that I am sending you this document which speaks of the situation of continued killings and displacement in the Catholic Diocese of Makurdi – Nigeria,” Bishop Chikpa says. He adds, “Our appeal is for all persons of goodwill to continue to spread the word about these killings and to help us in ways that bring these atrocities to an end”... “We are grateful to everyone for prayers and efforts made to address this concern. May the New Year bring us Peace and a cessation to the killings and displacements,” the Nigerian Catholic Bishop says...

Pope Francis Prays for Victims of Congo Church Bombing (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis expressed his closeness on Tuesday to the victims of a church bombing in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) that killed at least 14 people and injured more than 60. “In prayer, the Holy Father entrusts the deceased and the wounded to the mercy of God. He implores Christ, the Lord of Life, that the afflicted may find consolation and trust in God, invoking upon them the gift of peace,” a telegram sent Jan. 17 on behalf of the pope said...

“Join me in praying for Fr. Isaac Achi,” Pope Francis’ Appeal for Murdered Nigerian Priest (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis has invoked prayers for the soul of Fr. Isaac Achi, the Nigerian Catholic Priest who was murdered on Sunday, January 15 following an attack on Sts. Peter and Paul Kaffin Koro Parish of Minna Diocese in Nigeria. Speaking to pilgrims in the Vatican’s Paul VI Hall at the end of his Wednesday, January 18 General Audience, the Holy Father said, “I ask all of you to join me in praying for Fr. Isaac Achi of the Diocese of Minna in Northern Nigeria who was killed last Sunday in an attack on his rectory”...

>9 brone: Francis must have wished he was still under house arrest

I doubt whether Pope Francis wishes anybody to be under house arrest. It was probably a good opportunity for Cardinal Zen to have discussions with Vatican officials.

In counterpoise to the title of this thread, a definitely not silent Francis!

While other leaders turn away, Pope Francis responds to the cries of the world (The Tablet)

Pope Francis has not only heard the anguish of the earth and its inhabitants, but is speaking out for them when others stay silent. His consistent call on world leaders to act to stop the climate emergency has inspired millions, not just Catholics, but people of all faiths and none.

Emphasis mine.

>16 brone:

The world does not consist only of the USA. Here in Kenya it is not "the middle of winter", it is our fifth consecutive year of drought. I'm seeing hungry people and dying livestock all around me every day. Meanwhile in neighbouring South Sudan, where I will be next week, half the country has been underwater for four years due to floods, and it is estimated that at least 7 million people are in need of humanitarian assistance. Your attitude is typical of many in the Global North, where the voices of these people who are suffering for the "ecological sins" of others are not heard. They would not share your dismissive attitude towards a pope who speaks out on their behalf.

As a matter of accuracy, it is not "the middle of winter" even in the USA, since it is generally held that in the northern hemisphere the three months of winter ends and spring begins in March. But I believe you are having unseasonably cold weather in parts of the USA at the moment, a continuation of several years of extreme weather events, so even within the comfort and complacency of the rich industrialised nations it should by now be becoming clear that something has to be done about the climate crisis.

Edited to add: This reminds me of a quote from a Kenyan Catholic nun which I posted elsewhere this morning: "It is important to create venues where people from different nations and diverse cultures can have meaningful conversations. Where true encounter and dialogue can take place. Where we can learn to hear each other's reality and even try to imagine to see that reality from their perspective and not our perspectives".

>18 John5918:

Does that have anything to do with Kenyans dying of drought, or Pope Francis speaking out about the climate crisis, or indeed Sister Tia asking us to try to understand other people's perspectives?

>21 brone: why come over here

That's an interesting and rather egocentric comment. If you bother to check you'll see that I have been a member of this group for many years, and was posting on it long before you began posting. I post on many groups, on topics which interest me, to have conversations with people I agree with or disagree with, and when I see something which I consider to be erroneous or misleading. However if you're not interested in conversations, as you say, then I will modify my expectations and simply post what I want to say, whether you wish to respond or not.

>22 John5918: I have to say, my response would be that a traditional Catholic would regard what the Pope says as "infallible if he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals".

So on the face of the matter, brone would appear to be a heretic.

Am I correct in my understanding of that?

>23 MsMixte:

I'm travelling in South Sudan at the moment so I'm not in a position to write a detailed response, which I'll try to do next week when I'm home. Infallible teachings are limited and carefully defined, so not everything said by a pope enters the body of infallible teachings. Nevertheless, the Church teaches very clearly that Catholics should respect and be guided by the teaching of the pope. Referring to him dismissively as "Bergoglio" and ridiculing his statements doesn't appear to show much respect.

>24 John5918: Thank you, I look forward to your explication.

>26 brone:

Nobody is saying you can't disagree with a pope. Many Catholics had reservations about some elements of John Paul II and Benedict XVI's papacies, many still question some of Pius XII's decisions, and probably the majority of Catholics ignore certain teachings of Paul VI's encyclical Humanae vitae, while theologians still question whether or not it was an infallible teaching. However none of these popes were ridiculed, vilified or dismissed outright by Catholics who disagreed with elements of their teaching. It is pretty disgusting to see the lack of charity and respect demonstrated towards our current pope by a small number of Catholics, sadly including your good self. It is distinctly un-Catholic and, for people who arrogate to themselves the term "traditionalist", it is distinctly untraditional. If you respectfully disagree with the pope on some issues, fine. If you disrespectfully disagree with him on just about everything, to the extent that you often refuse even to refer to him by his title, then you're probably a schismatic or a Protestant.

Although having said that, I would add that many protestants, people of other faiths and people of no religious belief do have great respect for him. I'm in South Sudan at the moment and I'm hearing good things from all quarters about the ecumenical pilgrimage last month by Pope Francis, Archbishop Welby and Moderator Greenshields. Thank God for Christian leaders like these three and their South Sudanese counterparts who recognise the Gospel value of Christian unity.

>29 brone: your guy?

You mean our pope? He's also your pope (or guy, if you like), unless you're no longer a Catholic?

>31 brone: banning the Latin Mass in America

See a parallel thread in this group pointing out that "the Latin Mass" has not been banned anywhere in the world, that the definitive text of the mass from which all vernacular translations are derived is in Latin, and that the Church has expressly encouraged its use. What is restricted, and not permitted in public liturgies in parish churches, is the use of an old liturgical rite which was superseded sixty years ago.

>31 brone: McElroy's going unpunished

If your understanding of Church is that anybody who questions an element of Church teaching or praxis should be punished, then you're setting yourself up for it, as you are constantly attacking the Church. But no, the Church is not a boot camp where those who don't comply are punished, but is built on love and mercy, guiding rather than coercing her flock. Nor is Holy Communion a reward for being good. Rather it is a source of grace for we who are sinners, yes, even for you and me.

>29 brone: The local pastor was the boss for us

Interesting choice of words. For us the local pastor wasn't the "boss", he was, er, the pastor. Big difference. But in either case, the local pastor was guided by the Holy Father, so papal teaching was reaching us through him. One would hope that is still the case for our local pastors.

>23 MsMixte: - >25 MsMixte:

Just arrived home from a week in South Sudan where I co-facilitated a workshop on nonviolence, attended a public launch of my 2022 book, and had meetings with a variety of ecumenical Church leaders, including our Catholic archbishop. An interesting and productive week.

I recall I promised a few reflections on papal infallibility. I'm not a theologian, although like many Catholics, I have studied theology. Papal infallibility is a complex and oft-misundertood (or misrepresented) topic, but most of the following is easy to find on the internet and didn't take me long to put together.

In a nutshell, not every papal teaching is automatically classed as infallible. Pope Benedict XVI once said, "The Pope is not an oracle; he is infallible in very rare situations, as we know," and Pope John XXIII said, "I am only infallible if I speak infallibly but I shall never do that, so I am not infallible" (link). Popes can err and sin, but that does not mean that individual Catholics can just ignore (or dismiss, ridicule, vilify or declare heretical) papal statements that they don't like.

On relatively rare occasions infallibility is explicitly pronounced ex cathedra, ie "from the chair (of Peter)", on a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, declared either by the pope alone or with the bishops. The doctrine of infallibility was defined by Pope Pius XI in 1870, but it is believed that it existed in a less formal sense from the beginning of the Church. The most recent explicit infallible doctrine was the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary defined by Pope Pius XII in 1950, again something which had been part of the belief of the Church for many centuries.

The phrase "to be held by the whole Church" is important, and brings in the concept of the sensus fidelium, the assent of the faithful, "the supernatural appreciation of faith on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals" (Catechism #92). The Church is not a democracy, but nevertheless the Holy Spirit cannot contradict herself and inspire the pope to make an infallible statement while at the same time inspiring the bulk of the 1.3 billion Catholics to dissent from it. Hence it is to be expected that infallible teachings will receive near-universal assent, even if people fall short in implementing them. As Lumen Gentium teaches (#12):

The holy people of God shares also in Christ's prophetic office; it spreads abroad a living witness to Him... The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One, cannot err in matters of belief. They manifest this special property by means of the whole peoples' supernatural discernment in matters of faith when "from the Bishops down to the last of the lay faithful" they show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals. That discernment in matters of faith is aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth. It is exercised under the guidance of the sacred teaching authority...

Another important factor is the pope teaching with the world's bishops. Thus there is a strong presumption of infallibility in the teachings of major ecumenical councils such as the first seven ecumenical councils of the early Church, convened in what is now Turkey, and in modern times the First and Second Vatican Councils, where all the bishops of the world are present with the Holy Father.

Finally a statement on the authority of the pope and the bishops even when they are not explicitly speaking infallibly (Lumen Gentium #25):

Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.

"Respected by all... the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it... his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence... judgements sincerely adhered to..." Hm. A strong teaching to all loyal, faithful and traditional Catholics.

In a thread started by someone in the USA which appears to be mainly devoted to vilifying Pope Francis, it might be refreshing to see what is being said about the pope elsewhere in our world, on a continent where the Church is vibrant and growing.

Africa “deeply grateful”: Catholic Bishops on 10 Years of Pope Francis’ Pontificate (ACI Africa)

The people of God in Africa are “deeply grateful” to Pope Francis for his service to Global Catholicism in the last 10 years, the leadership of the Symposium of Episcopal Conference of Africa and Madagascar (SECAM) has said... “The Continent is deeply grateful to you for coming to us as a pilgrim of hope, and praying with us for peace, justice and reconciliation and helping us to raise our voices for our economic independence”... In his “Congratulatory Message”, the President of SECAM says that the 10 years of Pope Francis’ Pontificate have been marked by his “special attention to the Lord Jesus' preferred ones: the poor, migrants, refugees and all those who live in geographical and existential peripheries.” “And here you have touched with hand and heart the 1,340,598,147 inhabitants of Africa who live in these challenging situations”... “We have seen the development of a missionary option which, by transforming everything, makes customs, language and the whole ecclesial structure become a channel for evangelisation of the present world rather than a means of self-preservation... These are ten years of prophetic and servant leadership that goes beyond the boundaries of the Catholic Church and dialogues with the whole world"... "If we want a more fraternal world, we must educate the new generations to recognize, value and love all people regardless of their physical proximity, regardless of the point on earth where each one was born or lives.” He adds, “Human ecology is inseparable from the notion of the common good, a principle that plays a central and unifying role in social ethics”...

And lest it be claimed that Cardinal Fridolin Ambongo Besungu, the Archbishop of Kinshasa, and SECAM are part of some sort of elite cabal which supports the Holy Father against the wishes of the majority of Catholics, there are several articles from various parts of Africa reinforcing the same basic message here. brone has from time to time rightly criticised the exploitation of Congo's mineral wealth and the resulting death and suffering in that country, so the good cardinal's gratitude to Pope Francis for "praying with us for peace, justice and reconciliation and helping us to raise our voices for our economic independence” will no doubt be welcomed.

Incidentally I've just returned home from a week spent with Catholic and protestant church leaders in South Sudan, where last month's ecumenical pilgrimage by the Holy Father, the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Moderator of the Church of Scotland is still fresh in people's minds, and there is not a bad word to be heard anywhere from anyone about the pope. Most of the small but vocal opposition to this pope seems to come from very small groups mainly in the USA, UK and France, as well as from vested interests within the Vatican itself, certainly not from the countries and continents where most of the Catholics in the world live. Sad.

>36 John5918: Thank you, that is very helpful and I appreciate you taking the time to set it out for us.

>39 brone:

For the record, and for what it's worth, I am not the one who started this thread.

I've posted this in the Catholic Tradition group, but I also post it here as I think it is relevant to the topic and to much of the criticism of the pope contained in this thread. Those who find it difficult to understand Pope Francis, Fr Stan Chu Ilo says, "hold onto a theology without aesthetics." What such people have, he further says, is "a theology that does not have life in it" and a mere "collection of statements, sanctions, and condemnations."

Why is Pope Francis Sometimes Misunderstood? Nigerian Catholic Theologian Explains (ACI Africa)

Not everyone, including some Theologians, understands the theology of Pope Francis, a Nigerian-born Catholic Theologian has said. According to Fr. Stan Chu Ilo, a Research Professor in the Department of Catholic Studies at DePaul University, people who want “a Church with pre-packaged answers” and those who find it difficult to grasp what he describes as the “aesthetics” of Pope Francis’ theology are most likely to misunderstand the Holy Father. “Whoever doesn't understand the theological aesthetics of Pope Francis is likely to misunderstand him,” Fr. Stan told ACI Africa on March 5, when he shared about how the Holy Father has shaped his own work. “Some people want a pure Church; a Church with pre-packaged answers. Catholics who are used to the idea of ‘what is the Church saying’ find it difficult to understand most messages of Pope Francis," Fr. Stan said. He added, “Pope Francis is saying that we don't have answers to a lot of things that are happening in the world today and that we have to enter into mysteries guided by the Holy Spirit. When we do this, based on what we encounter, God will allow us to see the face of the poor man of Galilee. We need to accept that there are people who do not accept the same conclusion, and my work has been to give a theological explanation of this.” Those who find it difficult to understand Pope Francis, Fr. Stan says, “hold onto a theology without aesthetics.” What such people have, the Catholic Priest says, is “a theology that does not have life in it” and a mere “collection of statements, sanctions, and condemnations.” Pope Francis, U.S.-based member of the Clergy of Nigeria’s Awgu Diocese says, “brings theology to life”... “Pope Francis has changed the tone of messaging and leadership at the Vatican. He hasn't altered any teachings of the church regarding some of the topics that have been seen as controversial, including family, sexuality, gender theories, and celibacy; but rather, he has introduced a new ecclesial climate that is more open, inclusive, and one that orients itself as a humble, poor and merciful Church that listens,” Fr. Stan says. He adds, “We now have a Church that is listening more and more to the voices from the peripheries of people who feel abandoned and regarded as sinners. We have a Church where those who are divorced and separated are welcome to find healing under a tent of comfort”...

>43 brone: homosexual priests

Nobody is surprised that there are a lot of homosexual priests and bishops. Whatever the percentage of homosexual people is in the general population is likely to be mirrored in any particular group, including clergy, and probably always has been. Five years ago there was a thread on LT discussing the issue, and I seem to recall earlier conversations as well. What is new is the use of spy software to invade the privacy of individuals who are doing nothing illegal. Now that might well be illegal in some jurisdictions and almost certainly breaches privacy and data protection regulations. Are there law suits on the horizon, I wonder?

US group spends millions to track priests on gay dating apps (Tablet)

A non-profit group in Colorado, Catholic Laity and Clergy for Renewal, “spent millions of dollars to buy mobile app tracking data that identified priests who used gay dating and hookup apps and then shared it with bishops around the country”, according to The Washington Post. The revelation follows a similar use of cellphone data in 2021 to out Mgr Jeffrey Burrill, who was then the general secretary of the US bishops’ conference... There is no known previous example in the history of the Catholic Church in the United States of a bishop participating in an effort to spy on his clergy... the information purchased was done without the consent of those being spied upon. Ethicists have raised profound questions about such usages of data...

Note that Catholic clergy are expected to be celibate, regardless of their sexual orientation. Are we now going to see US Catholic vigilante groups spending millions of dollars to spy on all clergy to check whether or not they are living celibate lives?

no one hears the cry of the obedient priests

Actually priests have a big voice in the Church, and currently there is a global consultation process, the Synod on Synodality, giving everybody, including both "obedient" and "disobedient" priests, a platform to air their views. Those who choose not to participate are on weak ground if they claim that no-one hears their cry.

homosexual predators

I'm just noting that in your last line you have changed the focus from homosexuals to "predators". The two are very different. Casually linking them is careless and misleading at best, and homophobic at worst.

>42 brone: Nicaragua

Your preferred sources of information which you omit to cite (indeed you are very silent about them) must have missed the pope's condemnations of Nicaragua. Not what I would call "silent".

Nicaragua 'suspends' relations with Holy See (Tablet)

Pope Francis said: “I have no other choice but to think that {Ortega} is mentally unbalanced.” He praised the jailed Bishop of Matagalpa, Rolando Álvarez, who was sentenced to 26 years imprisonment in February, as “a very responsible man, a very capable man”... “He wanted to testify and did not accept exile,” said Francis. The Nicaraguan regime’s conduct, he said, was “like bringing back the 1917 communist dictatorship, or the 1935 Hitler dictatorship”. Francis continued: “They are a type of crass dictatorship. Or, to use a nice Argentinian expression, guarangas. Uncouth”...

>46 brone:

There are some heterosexual predators and paedophiles and there are some homosexual predators and paedophiles, thankfully a very small percentage of both sexual orientations, ie most priests, whether homosexual or heterosexual, do not abuse children. We should address the issue of the minority who do. Hounding homosexual people does not address the issue of paedophilia and predation.

>51 brone: approved victim

I don't think I've ever heard that term before. Would you care to enlighten us as to what you mean by it? The loss of any human life is a tragedy, and I'm sure many Christians, including the Catholic nuns whom you deride, prayed for all the victims. And I'm sure we're all also praying that disturbed ("lunatic", to use your word) young persons should not have access to military grade firearms of a type praised by the Pentagon for its “phenomenal lethality” (link).

You show a remarkable lack of charity towards nuns who have dedicated their lives to the Church and are doing tremendous work throughout the world, often under difficult and dangerous conditions. In South Sudan alone we've had three nuns martyred in recent years. I don't know about you, but I am humbled by the example set by these courageous religious women.

Whatever one believes about transgender and gay issues, the bottom line for the Church should always be charity and mercy, and respect for the dignity of every individual human being, created in the image and likeness of God and in whom we should try to see Christ; hate speech and ridicule towards any group of persons is distinctly un-Christian. It's always worth remembering Jesus' attitude towards the marginalised, stigmatised and vulnerable groups of his own religion, culture and society - foreigners, lepers and other sick people, sex workers, women, children, criminals, disabled, mentally disturbed ("possessed"), enemies, sinners, even individual members of the brutal foreign occupying power. He always treated them all with respect, engaged with them, sought to include rather than exclude them - he loved them.

>50 brone: trendy social justice scam

Social justice is neither trendy nor a scam. Whether you like it or not, it is well-established (albeit not always well-known) traditional Catholic doctrine. It is founded on the life and teaching of Jesus and on Scripture (both Old and New Testaments), and is part of the Tradition of the Church. Its disparate parts began to be drawn together into a single body after Pope Leo XIII published his encyclical Rerum Novarum in 1891, and a summary of the accumulated doctrine can be found in The Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church, a text that stands alongside the Catechism in importance for Catholics who want to learn about Church doctrine.

Edited to add: A term which pops into my mind here is "cafeteria Catholics". It's a pejorative which has been used in the past by a handful of Catholics who describe themselves as "traditionalists" to disparage the rest of us, implying (wrongly, of course) that we pick and choose which bits of Catholic doctrine we follow, as one might select food items in a cafeteria buffet; if you look back a few years in the LT "Catholic Tradition" group you'll see it there. But it strikes me that we have a new generation of "cafeteria Catholics" who really do pick and choose which bits of doctrine they accept. They're very focused on sexual morality, for example, and on a single aspect of the comprehensive ethic of life, but they appear to reject Catholic teaching on liturgy, they actively oppose other aspects of the ethic of life, they ignore Catholic Social Doctrine, they ridicule and denigrate the teaching authority of the pope and the college of bishops, and they seem to have completely sidelined the virtues of charity and mercy. And yet they often claim to be the only "true" "loyal" "faithful" Catholics. Strange.

And edited again to add a link to a not "silent Francis", In open dialogue with Pope, ten young people ask tough questions (Vatican News), which I just noticed this morning.

Pope Francis engages in conversation in Spanish with ten young people, most far from the Church, answering questions on a host of modern-day issues such as sexual identity, feminism, abortion, migration, abuse, loss of faith, the role of women and more...

I'm pleasantly surprised at how much of what I had earlier written fits in with what Pope Francis is saying. What sticks out for me is that he is primarily a pastor, not a demagogue, judge, politician or policeman. Thanks be to God! And I think the following quote from Francis is relevant to the position taken by brone and their fellow travellers within the Catholic Church: "When there is no witness, the Church suffers, because it turns into a club of good people, who carry out their religious gestures, but do not have the courage to go out to the peripheries. For me this is fundamental. When you look at reality from the centre, without wanting to, you put up protective barriers that take you away from reality and you lose your sense of reality. If you want to see what reality is, go to the peripheries. You want to know what social injustice is? Go to the outskirts. And when I say periphery, I am not just talking about poverty, but about cultural, existential peripheries." A club of good people, who carry out their religious gestures, but do not go out to the peripheries; hm, does that description sound familiar?

>54 brone:

Sounds good. Courageously going to the peripheries, knowing that there'll be a few grumpy old grouches in the "club of good people" who will not only fail to understand but will also attack them for their charitable Christian initiative.

>53 John5918:

Another extract from the pope's encounter with young people: Francis: 'infiltrators' use Church to peddle hate (The Tablet)

Those using the Bible to promote hate speech and exclude gay or transgender Catholics are “infiltrators” taking advantage of the Church to promote their ideologies, Pope Francis has told a group of young adults... “They are infiltrators who use the Church for their personal passions, for their personal narrowness. It’s one of the corruptions within the Church. Those narrow-minded ideologies.” The Pope has faced deep hostility in some quarters for his refusal to take a “culture warrior” stance on sexual teaching. Throughout his pontificate, Francis has adopted a pastorally sensitive approach to LGBTQ Catholics, supported civil protections of same-sex couples and called for the de-criminalisation of homosexuality... The Jesuit Pope told the young people that “deep within” those who promote hate are “severe inconsistencies” and that they judge other people due to their sinfulness. “They judge others because they can’t atone for their own faults,” Francis said. “In general, people who judge are inconsistent. There’s something within them. They feel liberated by judging others, when they should look inside at their own guilt.” The Pope insisted that every person is a “child of God” and that when the Church stops welcoming everybody – “the blind, the deaf, the good, the bad” – it will “stop being the Church”...

>54 brone: I don't usually comment, but I will here. Do you have a reliable source for this? All I could find was this rant: https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/B001-Cal.htm and nothing else. By the way, you'll notice that nobody has a "mark of Shiva" on any of the photos included. I also followed the link included to the video of the event. It's a standard Catholic school show, with dance performances over popular secular songs, lots of Christian preaching in between, readings from the Bible, Catholic hymns, and no Shaivism ( or any other flavour of Hinduism) that I could detect. It is however also very Indian, as you'd expect from an Indian school. If you're not scandalised when a Catholic school in the US celebrate the Fourth of July, you shouldn't be scandalised by this.

In this day and age, we should not still have to explain that using local idioms to express oneself and one's religiousness - whether it be a dance style, music, or traditional clothes and decorations - does not imply adherence to another religion. The traditioninaction.org "article" is extraordinarily ignorant.

>58 brone:

I think you've completely missed the point of Dilara's post. The good sisters did not dress or dance as "Hindus", they dressed and danced according to the culture and traditions of the society in which they live, just as US Christians dress and dance according to the culture of the society in which they live.

>60 brone:

Just as a matter of fact, tens of thousands of Catholics pray to Allah, because Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. The official Arabic translation of the Roman Missal uses the word Allah. It's no different than the French praying to Dieu, for example. I've spent many years of my life praying to Allah in Sudan, along with the cardinal, the bishops and every other Sudanese and South Sudanese Catholic. These official Catholic translations are used by Catholics throughout the Arabic-speaking world. Likewise in many African languages, Christians have translated the word God into an existing local word for God. And we should never forget the words of St Paul in Acts 17:23: "as I strolled round looking at your sacred monuments, I noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An Unknown God. In fact, the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you."

And again to correct an error, most African traditional religions are not "animist". This was a label given to them erroneously, and not without a degree of racism and white supremacy, by colonialists who didn't take the trouble to understand African religion and who sought to demean it. Many African religions in fact worship one God, just as we do.

And ecumenism generally refers to dialogue and cooperation between different Christian denominations, not between different religions. That is usually referred to as inter-faith.

And Buddhists don't believe in a deity, and Buddha is not a god.

Need I go on? Your rants are so full of basic errors that they make no sense whatsoever.

As a matter of interest, have you ever read Nostra aetate, the Catholic Church's teaching on non-Christian religions?

Pope Francis appeals to Russians over invasion of Ukraine in Easter message (Guardian)

Pope Francis appeared to ask Russians to seek the truth about their country’s invasion of Ukraine in his Easter message to the world on Sunday and appealed for dialogue between Israelis and Palestinians after recent violence... he spoke of “the darkness and the gloom in which, all too often, our world finds itself enveloped”, and prayed for peace. “Help the beloved Ukrainian people on their journey towards peace, and shed the light of Easter upon the people of Russia,” he said. Since Russia invaded Ukraine in February last year, Francis has at least twice a week referred to Ukraine and its people as being “martyred” and has used words such as aggression and atrocities to describe Russia’s actions. On Sunday he asked God to “comfort the wounded and all those who have lost loved ones because of the war, and grant that prisoners may return safe and sound to their families. Open the hearts of the entire international community to strive to end this war and all conflict and bloodshed in our world. ” As he has done every Easter, Francis called for peace in the Middle East, his appeal made more urgent by recent violence in Jerusalem and cross-border exchanges of fire involving Israel, Lebanon and Syria... Francis also mentioned instability in Lebanon, expressed the hope that the “martyred Rohingya people” of Myanmar “may encounter justice”, and called for more aid for the victims of earthquakes in February that killed nearly 56,000 people in Turkey and Syria. In a section of the address where he mentioned Nicaragua, the pope asked God to “remember all who are prevented from freely and publicly professing their faith”...

Not so silent.

>64 brone:

I'm very sorry and surprised to see that you promote such relativism, the idea that there is no Absolute Truth, that ecumenism is undogmatic, etc. It is at odds with the teaching of the Catholic Church, and also at odds with authentic attempts at ecumenical unity. Ecumenism is about as dogmatic as you can get, following the express wish of Jesus, "May they all be one, just as, Father, you are in me and I am in you, so that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me" (John 17:21).

Have you ever read the Catholic Church's teaching on ecumenism, Unitatis redintegratio and subsequent documents?

Have you ever experienced how positive it is for everybody (including for each separate faith community) when Christian churches and/or inter-faith groups work and pray together for peace and justice (as in Sudan and South Sudan, for example, or northern Uganda, or Northern Ireland, or during apartheid in South Africa)? "How good, how delightful it is to live as brothers {and sisters} all together!" (Psalm 133:1)

Incidentally, I think you're still confusing/conflating ecumenism and inter-faith.

And another outspoken global Christian leader:

Justin Welby to predict ‘divine justice’ for oppressive rulers in Easter sermons (Guardian)

The archbishop of Canterbury will use his Easter sermons to warn that “those who oppress and subjugate others will face divine justice”. Justin Welby will tell Canterbury Cathedral that while “cruel and oppressive rulers” may look as though they are only becoming stronger, they will “vanish”... “Cruel and oppressive rulers might look as though they only get stronger,” he will say. “Yet they will vanish: the power of the resurrection is infinitely greater than they are. Even in our lifetimes, as we are surrounded by fears, even by evil, we know that those who oppress and subjugate others will face divine justice. We know with certainty that policies that cause suffering and pain will fall away. We can say surely: all that seeks to deny God has no future – all that shares in the risen life of Jesus is eternal.” Reflecting on the war in Ukraine, as well as other conflicts around the world, the archbishop will tell congregants that “we must not lose heart” in the face of conflict. He will add that this is because “true peace is no aimless daydream, but a reality offered because Christ was raised from the dead. Life triumphs over death, light over darkness”...

I post this rather long piece in this thread about Pope Francis as I think it is relevant to a lot of brone's attacks on the pope and the Catholic Church. brone will no doubt be surprised at the headline, as in their own posts they try to make out that the pope is the darling of the extreme left, marxists, communists, etc. I think it is a poor headline, as what the article is actually saying is that the pope has disappointed both extremes within the Church, both extreme "left" and "right" if one can use such political terms about the Church, or perhaps extreme "progressive" and "conservative" (or self-styled "traditionalist"), although I find all such labels inadequate. It's worth reading, as an objective and balanced appraisal by an African bishop who is not part of any European or north American "culture wars" (whether political or religious), backed up by a theologian priest from another part of the African continent. But above all it shows how the pope is a pastor seeking unity, not a culture warrior seeking “a Church with pre-packaged answers”. And thank God that the group who "appreciate the leadership of Pope Francis" makes up by far the largest majority within the Catholic Church, and I think also amongst other Christians and people of good will of all faiths and none. The good bishop's suggestions in the last paragraph on the way forward for a polarised Church are well worth humbly taking to heart.

Pope Francis’ Pastoral Leadership Upsets “extreme leftist group”: South African Bishop (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis stands out for adopting a pastoral style of leadership, which has left the Church polarized, the Bishop of Mthatha in South Africa has said... Bishop Sithembele Anton Sipuka speaks broadly about the Holy Father who he describes as “a Pope of communion and Synodality”, “a Pope of simplicity and accessibility” as well as “a Pope presiding over a polarized Church”. In his description of “a polarized Church”, Bishop Sipuka identifies various groups of people, including those he says appreciate the leadership of Pope Francis. The South African Catholic Bishop also identifies what he describes as “the extreme group on the left” who he says are “annoyed with the Pope” for not moving fast and making radical changes in the Church. “Pope Francis’ call about prioritizing the identity of the Church and being pastoral has been met with varying reactions. These reactions range from a balanced sense of appreciation of what the Pope is doing to a sense of disappointment for not doing enough and to a sense of anger and disgust for allegedly changing the nature of the Church,” Bishop Sipuka says... He explains, “In other words, some realize that the Pope is doing nothing new but implementing the Vatican II vision of the Church in which everybody feels part of the Church and in which all formations are given space to exercise roles proper to them in a harmonized manner that advances the mission of the Church. This group understands the Pope as not seeking to change any moral or dogmatic teaching of the Church but to apply them in a pastoral, contextual, and caring manner”...On the “far-right group”, he says, are people who think that the call for a communal and Synodal Church by Pope Francis is a trick to change the true nature of the Church by substituting her teachings and traditions for liberal views and secular ideologies. According to the President of the Southern African Catholic Bishops’ Conference (SACBC), the leftist reaction is more prevalent in Europe, while the far-right view “vociferously” prevails in America and “silently” exists in Africa.

Bishop Sipuka’s sentiments echo the observation of Fr. Stan Chu Ilo, a Research Professor in the Department of Catholic Studies at DePaul University, who noted that while Pope Francis has introduced a paradigm shift in the Church, he does not seek to alter the Church teachings, especially pertaining to issues considered controversial. “Pope Francis has changed the tone of messaging and leadership at the Vatican. He hasn't altered any teachings of the church regarding some of the topics that have been seen as controversial, including family, sexuality, gender theories, and celibacy; but rather, he has introduced a new ecclesial climate that is more open, inclusive, and one that orients itself as a humble, poor and merciful Church that listens,” Fr. Stan told ACI Africa on March 5, when he shared about how the Holy Father has shaped his work. He added, “We now have a Church that is listening more and more to the voices from the peripheries of people who feel abandoned and regarded as sinners. We have a Church where those who are divorced and separated are welcome to find healing under a tent of comfort”... not everyone, including some Theologians, understands the theology of Pope Francis... Fr. Stan explained why Pope Francis is sometimes misunderstood, noting that people who want “a Church with pre-packaged answers” and those who find it difficult to grasp what he described as the “aesthetics” of Pope Francis’ theology are most likely to misunderstand the Holy Father. “Whoever doesn't understand the theological aesthetics of Pope Francis is likely to misunderstand him,” Fr. Stan said, and added, “Some people want a pure Church; a Church with pre-packaged answers. Catholics who are used to the idea of ‘what is the Church saying’ find it difficult to understand most messages of Pope Francis.” He added, “Pope Francis is saying that we don't have answers to a lot of things that are happening in the world today and that we have to enter into mysteries guided by the Holy Spirit. When we do this, based on what we encounter, God will allow us to see the face of the poor man of Galilee. We need to accept that there are people who do not accept the same conclusion, and my work has been to give a theological explanation of this.”

Meanwhile, Bishop Sipuka has proposed “as the way forward in this polarization”, to remember that the people of God are people of faith, “not just a club gathered by similar ideas and coinciding personality temperaments.” “We must remember that we are gathered not by our agreement but by common baptism, which invites us to look further than ourselves when differences occur,” Bishop Sipuka says in the reflection published April 3, and adds, “We must therefore seek together what the will of God is by looking at the tradition of the Church in a Spirit-guided (not political or ideological) way with the openness to modifying our ideas as we listen to each other.” The SACBC President observes that journeying together in the Synodality that Pope Francis proposes calls for charity, humility, and patience.

>68 brone: The faith doesn'take paragraphs to explain. It can be explained in a few words that are simple, One, True, Holy and Apostolic

Of course. No disagreement with you there, although you omitted catholic, ie universal. But if those words are to be anything other than empty slogans they need to be unpacked, understood and lived. That's why we have (and have had since the earliest times) theology, often described as "faith seeking understanding". And that's why we have the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the pope and bishops guided by the Holy Spirit and affirmed by the sensus fidei, the assent of the faithful Christians, to help us to develop our understanding of it. It's possible and commendable to have faith without all the "paragraphs", and I know many excellent Christians whose simple faith humbles my own meagre efforts. But if you wish to set yourself up to publicly reject the doctrine of the Church and the guidance of the pope, particularly when the vast majority of Catholics don't agree with either your position or the way you express it, I would suggest that you really should pay some attention to the theology. If you mock and dismiss in principle the "paragraphs" of theology, you're also mocking Augustine, Aquinas and all the other great Doctors of the Church.

doctrines evolve and that what was right 10 years ago is wrong today

The first part of that sentence is partly right, in that our understanding of doctrine evolves, rather than the fundamental doctrine itself. The second part is nonsense.

If I simply say that men need an altar (as I Have) I am told today the superstitions of the remote people and their pagan customs are now normal

Nobody has said an altar is not needed, although I would suggest that it is needed by women and children as well, not only men, and I'm not as concerned about its shape and appearance as you seem to be. Nobody is saying anything about "superstitions" and "pagan customs", both of which are value-laden and dismissive terms. If you're speaking about inculturated forms of liturgy, has your local parish started having regular Sunday mass according to the Eastern Catholic rite, or the Zaire or Mayan rites? No, I expect your parish has mass according to the universal rite of the Church, which is indeed "normal". So what are you complaining about?

elites

As I have tried to explain to you but you are not listening, these initiatives are not being driven by "elites". They're being driven by ordinary Catholics in some of the poorest, most marginalised parts of the world and the Church. Liberation theology in particular, which you seem to abhor, is very much a grassroots theology, developed by and with the ordinary Catholics in the pews. "Elites" is a word that could be used about the powerful and comfortable who are trying to stifle these outbreaks of the Holy Spirit and to continue to maintain a western-dominated form of Christianity.

>69 brone:

No, Karl Marx was a 19th century German philosopher, economist, historian, sociologist, political theorist, journalist, critic of political economy, and socialist revolutionary. I've seen his grave in Highgate Cemetery in London. Jesus the Christ doesn't have a grave, as he was resurrected. He was a carpenter and Son of God who lived nearly two millennia before Marx and preached universal love and salvation. I'm sorry if you are confused about that.

But they do have some points in common. Both were revolutionaries, both were deeply committed to their beliefs and to the good of the poor and the marginalised, both were persecuted, and both have since been vilified and had their messages twisted and co-opted by what Pope Francis has called "infiltrators", who promote hate and who have “severe inconsistencies”.

>71 brone:

If you look through some of the Holy Father's recent statements, I think you'll find that he includes those who try to co-opt Christianity into their left-right wing political struggles and culture wars, as well as those who lose sight of love and mercy.

Edited to add: Reposting this from the LT Catholic Tradition group as it might also provide part of the answer to your question:

Pope Francis tells ‘keyboard warriors’ to put aside online polemics to proclaim the Gospel (Tablet)

Pope Francis has told “keyboard warriors” to put aside online polemics and get out from behind their desks to proclaim the Gospel... “One does not proclaim the Gospel standing still, locked in an office, at one’s desk or at one’s computer, engaging in polemics like ‘keyboard warriors’ and replacing the creativity of proclamation with copy-and-paste ideas taken from here and there,” Pope Francis said. “The Gospel is proclaimed by moving, by walking, by going”... the pope warned that it is possible to have “misdirected zeal” that is “doggedly persistent in the observance of purely human and obsolete norms for the Christian community.” “We cannot ignore the solicitude with which some devote themselves to the wrong pursuits even within the Christian community itself; one can boast of a false evangelical zeal while actually pursuing vainglory or one’s own convictions,” he said...

Would you agree that here we often fall into that same trap which the Holy Father warns of? For my part in this dynamic, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

>74 brone:

I think you do Pope Benedict XVI an injustice if you think his "most important contribution as a pope" was a minor document making a limited concession to placate a handful of disaffected Catholics. I would suggest he contributed far more than that to the Church and to the world.

>76 brone:

And why wouldn't a pastor reach out to people who are on the margins of, even rejected by, society? Jesus did. A "bad bar joke"? That's probably what the Scribes and Pharisees said about him.

And why wouldn't a missionary make use of a popular media channel to spread the Gospel? There's a lot of stories on Catholic internet sites in Africa at the moment about the missionary work of the Daughters of St Paul, an order of nuns founded more than a century ago whose charism is publishing and media. Missionaries used to wade through the swamps spreading the Word (and indeed in a few cases they still have to do that - I certainly have, and a priest colleague recently told me that 80% of his parish in South Sudan is currently under water due to nationwide floods), but there are many other fruitful channels for evangelisation nowadays.

Have you actually read objective accounts of what Pope Francis said to these young people? There are articles about it here on LT. Call me old fashioned (traditional even), but I've always found that when people who know more about Church doctrine than I do teach about it, especially when those people happen to include the pope and the bishops who are the legitimate teaching authorities, then it behoves me to listen humbly and learn from them rather than deriding them and dismissing them out of hand. No idea what you mean by a "pro Catholic" (sex worker, maybe?), but if you bother to read it you'll find there was one young lady who was quite "conventionally" Catholic, and the Holy Father affirmed her in her faith.

Incidentally, if you were to type "Francis" instead of "Bergoglio, Borgoglio, Begoglio" you might save time and also spell it right - and be taken more seriously. Just a helpful hint.

neomarxist Disney channel

Do you not realise how ridiculous that sounds? Disney represents capitalism par excellence.

One that is very close to home for me. I'm following events in Sudan closely. Needless to say, I have many friends and colleagues there.

Pope Francis Asks for Prayers for Sudan as Military Factions Battle for Control (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis asked people to pray for Sudan on Sunday, that the country’s rival military factions might lay down their weapons and pursue peace. “I am following with concern the events unfolding in Sudan,” he said April 16... Fighting intensified in Sudan’s capital of Khartoum and in other cities April 16 after skirmishes broke out Saturday morning between the Sudan army and the rival Rapid Support Forces (RSF) paramilitary group. The clashes have erupted after almost a year and a half of military rule, and have ended hopes for a peaceful transition of power... Pope Francis also wished Orthodox Christians a happy Easter, while lamenting the ongoing wars in the world. “Unfortunately, in strike contrast to the Easter message, wars are continuing, and they continue to sow death in horrific ways,” he said. “Let us grieve over these atrocities and let us pray for the victims, asking God that the world might never more have to experience the shock of violent death by human hand, but awe of the life that he gives and renews with his grace.”

>81 brone:

It's true that there are many Anglicans who are open to recognising the leadership of the pope, particularly in the "high Anglican", "Anglo-Catholic" or "Anglican Catholic" wing of that church. When Pope John Paul II was elected I happened to be in an Anglican parish church as I was visiting an Anglican friend that weekend, and the homily from the parish priest welcoming and praising the new pope would have set an example to many Catholic priests.

It's just a shame that a small group of Catholics, including apparently your good self, are so dismissive of the leadership of the pope.

Fact check

>83 brone: hermeneutic of continuity

This is a term popularised by the late Pope Benedict XVI in contrast to a "hermeneutic of rupture". Not sure how you connect it to Pope Francis, and it is not "gobbledegook" - it is and always has been a guiding principle of the Catholic Church, although the term used for it may be relatively new.

>84 brone: the silence of most of his bishops

All the bishops are "his" in the sense that the pope is the first amongst equals and is universally recognised as the head of the Catholic Church. Personally I don't find either the pope or the bishops to be silent. I'm reading statements by them every day on multiple issues of importance, including China, human sexuality, and child slavery, all of which seem to be focus issues for you.

the recent decision to decriminalize Pedophilia by... the United Nations

U.N.-backed report doesn’t say adults having sex with children is OK (PolitiFact)

The International Commission of Jurists published a set of legal principles in March about applying a human rights-based approach to criminal law on matters involving sex, reproduction and other areas. It did not call for decriminalizing adults having sex with minors, nor does it mention the topic. A U.N. official and human rights experts said the principle being wrongly characterized refers to applying criminal law to similarly aged adolescents in which one may be under the legal age of consent...

>86 brone:

As I understand it, this report is not about sex between adults and minors, which remains illegal, and I'm not sure why you continue to misrepresent it. The point is how to deal with two children having a sexual encounter, assuming it is not coerced. Do we want a pair of twelve year-olds who experiment sexually to be treated like adult paedophiles? They need to be taught that this is not appropriate, they need counselling, they need support from their parents, but what they don't need is to be taken to court and find themselves with a criminal record for the rest of their lives. We Christians are staunch supporters of the family, and so we should support measures to avoid breaking up a family.

>88 brone:

Pope Francis has consistently spoken out against abortion, most recently, I think, in his encounter with young people in a Disney documentary which has been referenced elsewhere.

>90 brone:

I assume you're still referring to the UN report regarding the legal treatment of child offenders? Nobody is trying to "walk it back" nor to look for a "loophole". The document means what it says, and that is what the writers intended. What it doesn't mean is whatever fantasy (mis)interpretation has been projected onto it by right wing social media.

I had to look up Saul Alinsky. Seems like a good bloke. Although a Jewish agnostic, a lot of what he said and did resonates with Catholic social doctrine. I wonder if he had read Pope Leo XIII's Rerum Novarum? I like his epitaph, "Alinsky was a true believer in the possibilities of American democracy as a means to social justice" (Wikipedia). Sad that American democracy is now in such a precarious state, and that it has not made much headway with social justice.

Pope Francis Calls Abortion "senseless" and Criticizes Gender Theory in Hungary Speech (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis spoke out strongly against abortion and gender ideology Friday, citing both as examples of “ideological colonization” during a speech in Budapest... he lamented “self-referential forms of populism” and “supranationalism” gaining traction in Europe. “This is the baneful path taken by those forms of ‘ideological colonization’ that would cancel differences, as in the case of the so-called gender theory, or that would place before the reality of life reductive concepts of freedom, for example by vaunting as progress a senseless ‘right to abortion,’ which is always a tragic defeat,” said the pope, who is in Budapest for a three-day visit. “How much better it would be to build a Europe centered on the human person and on its peoples, with effective policies for natality and the family — policies that are pursued attentively in this country — a Europe whose different nations would form a single family that protects the growth and uniqueness of each of its members,” the Holy Father said...

Sounds pretty unequivocal to me.

>84 brone: ff

I don't think this case is one of the ones dealt with in the UN report, as clearly the sexual contact was non-consensual and was not between children of a similar age, but it highlights the difficulty of dealing with children who commit offences (of any sort, not only sexual assault). The judge's comments are worth noting. There is a difficult balance to be had between protecting society and criminalising our children. Whether or not the good judge made the best decision in this case is of course arguable, but there are no simple black-and-white one-size-fits-all solutions for the criminal justice system when dealing with young children.

Boy, 13, avoids custody after four sexual assaults in Telford (Guardian)

The judge told the boy he would have been jailed for eight or nine years for the offences of attempted rape and sexual assault if he had been an adult. But he explained to the court that any custodial sentence would have to be reduced to three years for a 13-year-old, and that would mean he would be released in 18 months. Lowe said he was worried detention would provide no rehabilitation and the defendant would “come out bigger, stronger and more sexually active without these issues ever having been addressed”. He told the court this left him with a “stark choice” between custody or an attempt at some form of rehabilitation. The judge opted for a youth rehabilitation order with a supervision order for 30 months after hearing he would be housed at a specialist therapeutic unit for at least the next 18 months, where he is already engaging with the programme. He said he had to “balance what a 13-year-old needs and what society needs when women are seriously accosted in the street for no reason”...

Pope Francis Says Traditional Latin Mass was Being Used in an Ideological Way (ACI Africa)

During the question and answer session, Pope Francis said he was concerned about a “reaction against the modern,” or what he calls in Italian “indietrismo,” which translates in English to “backwardness.” “It is a nostalgic disease,” he said... “After all the necessary consultations, I decided this because I saw that the good pastoral measures put in place by John Paul II and Benedict XVI were being used in an ideological way, to go backward. It was necessary to stop this ‘indietrismo,’ which was not in the pastoral vision of my predecessors”... “And,” he added, “I know the resistance to its decrees is terrible. There is incredible support for restorationism, what I call ‘indietrismo’ (backwardness), as the Letter to the Hebrews (10:39) says: ‘But we do not belong to those who shrink back.’” “The flow of history and grace goes from the roots upward like the sap of a tree that bears fruit. But without this flow you remain a mummy,” he said. “Going backwards does not preserve life, ever.” “You must change, as St. Vincent of Lérins wrote in his Commonitory when he remarked that even the dogma of the Christian religion progresses, consolidating over the years, developing with time, deepening with age,” he said.

As a matter of interest, you have still never explained why you prefer the pre-Vatican II version of the Latin Mass to the regular universal Latin Mass.

a coptic schismatic false pope

In this Christianity group, do you really think it is appropriate or helpful to refer to the head of one of the oldest Christian churches, believed to have been founded by the evangelist Saint Mark, as "a coptic schismatic false pope"?

>98 brone:

There's a lot of rumour, innuendo, disparagement, scorn and, dare I say, hate in that post. Shame on you. However much you disagree with these people, it is un-Christian to refer to them in this way.

>102 brone:

As a taster, here's Pope Francis' Ascension Day homily from last year.

Also, here's a couple of his recent reflections on the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Pope gives 3 reasons to pray Rosary (Aleteia)

Be embraced by Mary's tender arms, Pope tells Monfort Missionaries (Vatican News)

Pope Francis expresses closeness to Chinese Catholics 'who suffer' (Vatican News)

"I wish to assure my thoughts and closeness to our brothers and sisters in China, and share in their joys and hopes. I offer a special thought to all those who suffer - pastors and the faithful - so that in the communion and solidarity of the universal Church they may experience consolation and encouragement." Pope Francis made this appeal for the Church in China on Wednesday as he held his General Audience in St. Peter's Square. The Pope recalled that 24 May marks the World Day of Prayer for the Church in China. In his appeal, the Holy Father invited all Christians to "raise their prayers to God, so that the Good News of Christ crucified and risen may be proclaimed in its fullness, beauty and freedom, bearing fruit for the good of the Catholic Church and all of Chinese society"...

>102 brone:

Pope Francis' "good old fashioned" Ascension Day homily can be found here.

>107 brone:

Sorry to hear that you are confused about discrimination against transgender people (you keep spelling that wrong - it's a "g" not a "tr" - and if that is your rather pathetic attempt to suggest that people struggling with their transgender nature are following a "trend" then it reveals a lot more about you than it does about them, and is distinctly uncharitable to say the least) and others who are not in a "one man/one-woman union". There's an LT thread entitled Attempted genocide of transgender people which you might find helpful in getting a better understanding. I have to confess that I have very little understanding of the issue, but at least I try to listen to those who have the knowledge and experience.

I could count on one hand how many I think I have seen in my entire life

"Think" is the operative word there. I doubt whether you or I have any idea how many transgender people we have actually seen, since so many of them have to hide their status and pretend to be what they're not. Likewise many other categories of LGBTQ+ people. Sad isn't it that we even have to label categories of human beings. All human beings are created in the image and likeness of God, are loved equally and unconditionally by God, and deserve the same level of respect for their human dignity and human rights. As we are told in John 13:34, "I give you a new commandment: love one another; you must love one another just as I have loved you", and in Leviticus 19:18 and Mark 12:31, "You must love your neighbour as yourself". I may have difficulty understanding someone, but that's no excuse for treating them in a way that I would not like to be treated myself.

a special way of loving that shouldn't be governed by the rules that apply to others

On the contrary, I think what Christian LGBTQ+ people are asking for is precisely that their way of loving should be governed by the same rules that apply to others, rather than being told they should suppress the way that God created them.

>107 brone: worked for a major public transportation system

Yes, you've said elsewhere that you were a bus driver. Good on yer, mate. I've only driven trains, not buses, although I did move one in a car park once. But by chance the other day I had occasion to look up the Archbishop of Milwaukee, Jerome E. Listeckii, and it turns out he was also a bus driver. I immediately thought of you. Nice coincidence.

>110 brone: progressive marxists who don't fully believe and profess the integrity of the Catholic faith frequently occupy strategic positions in the life of the church

Interesting. I've worked with a lot of theology professors, seminary rectors, religious superiors, parish priests and cardinals, and I don't think I've ever come across one who is a Marxist, progressive or otherwise, nor who doesn't believe and process the integrity of the Catholic faith; quite the contrary, in fact. We must move in different circles.

>102 brone:, >106 John5918:

Following his Ascension Day homily, you might also be interested in Pope Francis' Pentecost homily, On Pentecost, Pope Francis Says Holy Spirit Can Bring Harmony to "a polarized Church". Let us pray that the Holy Spirit will indeed bring our polarised Church back into unity and harmony, and that each one of us, yes, including you and me, will play our part in that movement.

>103 brone:

Pope Francis encourages Marian shrines around the world to pray for Synod on Synodality (CNA)

From the Philippines to Portugal, Marian shrines around the world will participate in a special day of prayer this Wednesday for the work of the Synod on Synodality. In his Regina Caeli address, Pope Francis announced that the day of prayer for the 16th Ordinary General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops will take place on May 31, the last day of the month dedicated to Mary. “Let us ask the Virgin Mary to accompany this important stage of the synod with her maternal protection,” the pope said. The shrines of Our Lady of Fatima in Portugal, the National Shrine of Our Lady of Czestochowa in Poland, the Knock Shrine in Ireland, the Basilica of Our Lady of the Angels in Costa Rica, Our Lady of Fourvière in France, and many other Marian shrines have confirmed their participation...

>116 brone:

For those who are interested, the Disney interview is referenced in >53 John5918: above and also in post #48 in another LT thread here.

Pope Francis publishes Apostolic Letter on 17th-century Philosopher, Blaise Pascal (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis published an apostolic letter on Monday praising the 17th-century mathematician and philosopher Blaise Pascal as “a tireless seeker of truth.” Pascal (1623–1662) was a French scientist who helped to lay the foundation for modern probability theory, invented one of the earliest forms of a calculator, and defined a principle of hydraulics that has since come to be known in physics as “Pascal’s law.” In the later years of his life, the Catholic mathematician, physicist, and philosopher devoted himself to Christian apologetics. “As a Christian, {Pascal} wishes to speak of Jesus Christ to those who have hastily concluded that there is no solid reason to believe in the truths of Christianity,” Pope Francis wrote. “For his part, he knows from experience that the content of divine revelation is not only not opposed to the demands of reason, but offers the amazing response that no philosophy could ever attain on its own”...

The full text of the APOSTOLIC LETTER SUBLIMITAS ET MISERIA HOMINIS (THE GRANDEUR AND MISERY OF MAN {sic}) OF THE HOLY FATHER FRANCIS ON THE FOURTH CENTENARY OF THE BIRTH OF BLAISE PASCAL, 19 June 2023, can be found here.

>122 brone: cancelled Archbishop Vigano

Not sure what you mean by "cancelled Archbishop Vigano". As far as I am aware, he resigned, as all bishops are required to do, when he reached the mandatory retirement age of 75, and is now archbishop emeritus. Far from being "cancelled", all the allegations he made are freely available on the internet (I just read them on WIkipedia). Pope Francis' reaction to his allegations was very open: "Read the statement carefully and make your own judgment. I will not say a single word about this. I believe the statement speaks for itself."

>124 brone: Cancelled St Fr Jean de Brebeuf

Again, I'm rather confused by your use of the term "cancelled". I confess I had never heard of him, as the mission field in the Americas is not my area, but he was easy to find on the internet. A great missionary, a great Jesuit, and a martyr for the faith. Deo gratias.

>127 brone: the complete lack of Christan Charity or even pastoral concern

That's an ironic statement given that one of the criticisms of the current pope by "conservative" elements within the Church is his emphasis on, er, charity and pastoral concern over and above the rigid implementation of laws and doctrine.

Benedict never cancelled the Norvus Ordo

That's very confusing. Of course Benedict didn't cancel what you refer to as the "Novus Ordo" because that is in fact the normal, ordinary form of the liturgy introduced in 1970, the form that almost all the Catholics in the world use every day. There are a handful of extraordinary rites which can be used in limited and strictly defined situations, eg the Zaire and Ambrosian rites, and yes, the Tridentine rite, but none of these are freely available without restrictions.

Pope Francis has just given the Vatican his Ratzinger (Crux)

politically and personally, Fernández is now poised to be roughly to Francis what Ratzinger once was to John Paul, albeit with some important differences... If anything, the bond between Francis and Fernández, both Argentines, runs even deeper than that which linked the Polish John Paul and the German Ratzinger...

>131 brone:

I don't think the Christianity group is the place to post conspiracy theories and anti-vaccine propaganda. There are threads in the Pro and Con group devoted to COVID, and you will probably get a better discussion there than here. But for the record, while of course no vaccine is 100% effective and there is always the possibility of side effects for a small number of individuals, there is no credible scientific evidence to support your claims and plenty which demonstrates that as a broad public health measure, vaccines have been highly effective and not dangerous. There is no real comparison with thalidomide. There is no doubt that catching COVID was far more dangerous than getting vaccinated, and that vaccinated people who did get COVID generally got a milder and less dangerous dose. Vaccines saved lives and contributed both to limiting the spread of COVID and limiting the development of new variants. As far as the claim that vaccines were made from aborted foetuses goes, it was, as you yourself admit, examined by Church authorities and refuted.

Information is not being censored. I don't know about the niche right wing media, but debate on the efficacy or otherwise of measures taken by governments is being widely covered in mainstream media and the scientific journals, and I think a consensus is developing that some of the more extreme lockdown measures were excessive. Mistakes were made, and lessons are being learned for a better response next time there is a pandemic.

More broadly, I struggle to understand the opposition to vaccines. Britons of my generation were routinely vaccinated against just about everything. Diseases such as polio and smallpox have been virtually eliminated due to vaccines. The development of a vaccine against malaria is an exciting new development which will save countless lives - I speak as one who nearly died of malaria on one occasion. I have carried a "vaccine passport" for nearly fifty years, as in the region of the world where I live and work you cannot travel from country to country without proof that you have been vaccinated against yellow fever. All of this is normal and it's sad to see public health measures being co-opted into political culture wars.

>133 brone: accustomed to thinking faith is a personal matter

It's precisely because faith is not just a personal matter that Catholic doctrine emphasises the common good, and that faith leaders including both Benedict XVI and Francis encouraged us to get vaccinated, wear masks, and observe other sensible public health measures in order to protect others, particularly those more vulnerable than ourselves - the sick, infirm and elderly, those with immune deficiencies, etc. It's not about politics or culture wars, it's about caring for others, as in "love thy neighbour".

Edited to add: I'm sorry if you feel that my post was bullying or censoring. What I did, as I have done before, was to point you towards a part of LT where the topic you raised has been discussed seriously in great detail, certainly in greater detail than it will be here. Your claims would generally be regarded as erroneous, extreme, fringe and politically ideological rather than evidence based, but on those threads the type of views you express have been considered, taken seriously, discussed and refuted, with reference to a wide range of international media, expert opinion and peer-reviewed academic literature, leading to disagreement, which I think you often wrongly equate with bullying or censorship.

Edited again to add these words from an Oxford professor of primary health care, quoted today in one of the threads I was suggesting that you peruse:

"Anti-vax movements cause a lot of harm. By ‘anti-vax’ I don’t mean anyone who raises concerns about harms or possible harms from vaccines. I mean people who *ignore scientific evidence* and perpetuate a distorted and entirely negative message about the benefit-harm balance. Vaccines against covid-19 greatly improve survival and reduce (though they do not eliminate) the risk of long-term complications like long covid and the risk of transmitting the disease to others..." {there is much evidence here – example paper linked}
https://nature.com/articles/s41598-021-02321-z 2/...

We're very happy that three of the new cardinals are from Africa. I know two of them personally - fine archbishops.

Not sure what you think has changed in the election of popes. The pope appoints cardinals, and the cardinals elect popes. That's the mechanism by which the will of the Holy Spirit is traditionally discerned by the Church, a will which can sometimes be very surprising, as for example in the election of Pope Saint John XXIII.

>129 brone:

"I will do it my way": Newly Appointed Head of Doctrine of Faith Dicastery (ACI Africa)

“Does it not seem good to you that for some time in history a Latin American who has been a parish priest of the peripheries, who grew up in a small town in the countryside, with a sensitivity close to the pain of the discarded of society, with a life story very different from that of a European or American, but who at the same time is a doctor in theology, occupies this position?” “Once again, I tell them that I will learn from history, I will respect the processes, I will dialogue, but I will do it "my way.”

Given that you often complain about so-called "elites" in the Church, I thought you would appreciate this quote from Archbishop Víctor Manuel Fernández, who came from the periphery.

And here are some comments from the USA and UK Catholic media:

Pope Francis appoints Archbishop Victor Manuel Fernandez as the new head of Vatican office for doctrine (America Magazine)

In an unexpected and highly significant move, Pope Francis has appointed the Argentine theologian and archbishop Victor Manuel “Tucho” Fernández as the new prefect of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith... Pope Francis wrote a letter to the new prefect in which he told him in Spanish, “As prefect of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, I entrust to you a task that I consider invaluable. It has as its main purpose to safeguard the teaching that comes from the faith ‘to give reasons for our hope, but not as an enemy who critiques and condemns.’ (Evangelii Gaudium, 271)”... “The dicastery that you will preside over in other epochs came to use immoral methods. Those were times when more than promoting theological knowledge they chased after possible doctrinal errors. What I expect from you is something without doubt much different,” Francis said. The dicastery, previously a Vatican congregation, was long known as “La Suprema” among Vatican offices. It is entrusted with Catholic doctrine and discipline. Historically, particularly during the Inquisition but also in the 20th century, the congregation had a reputation for its free hand in censuring or silencing theologians, though under Francis its actions have been curtailed. The dicastery also oversees the majority of sex abuse cases referred to the Vatican, which today constitutes over 80 percent of its work... Pope Francis asks the new prefect to promote theological thinking more than controlling it, and not to occupy himself so much with the abuse question, for which there is a disciplinary sector in the dicastery, so as to concentrate on the theological area that requires development. “Given that for disciplinary questions—related especially to the abuse of minors—there was recently created {in the dicastery} a specific section with very competent professionals, I ask you that as prefect you dedicate your personal commitment in a more direct way to the principal aim of the dicastery, which is ‘to safeguard the faith,’” Francis wrote...

Francis finds his striker – Cardinal-designate Víctor Manuel Fernández (Tablet)

The appointment of Fernández has once again shown Francis’ willingness to shake things up in the Church. The new head of the doctrine office is someone in the Holy Father’s image: mission-oriented, willing to take risks, preferring dialogue over condemnation and with a tendency to do things in such a way that no one remains indifferent...

An unofficial translation of the pope's letter can be found in the America article.

>138 brone: 1/2 of the US Catholic Bishop's operating budget comes from US taxpayer's dollars

That's very interesting. I thought there was a strict separation of Church and state in the USA and that tax money could not be used to support a faith community, unlike, for example, Germany, where tax money is used to fund churches. Can you point us to a source for this information so we can read about it in more detail?

>140 brone: maybe he was being ecumenical

As Father Jack Hackett would say, "That would be an ecumenical matter"!

>143 brone: full fleged Teilhardian rapture over personal committments and identity

Have you ever actually read anything by the priest, theologian, philosopher, palaeontologist and scientist Fr Pierre Teilhard de Chardin? That phrase is certainly not one I would choose to characterise his writings.

these elitists... these elites

You are pretty obsessed with elitisim. While I would not disagree with you that there have been and maybe still are some in the Vatican who may have considered themselves to be "elites", you seem unaware of the fact that it is Pope Francis, a pastor coming from the Global South and championing the concerns of people who have always been on the margins, who is challenging these elites, whether they be in the Vatican or on the right wing of the US Catholic hierarchy. Francis is anything but "silent" in his dealings with "these elites".

Rome's stunning display of ecumenism is not "collectively astonishing", it is merely putting into practice Catholic doctrine and praxis as developed in response to Unitatis redintegratio (approved in 1964 by 2,137 bishops with only 11 against) and Nostra aetate (approved in 1965 by 2,221 to 88). I don't know how old you are, but I was only ten years old when these were promulgated, so basically this has been the teaching of the Church for almost the whole of my lifetime, and certainly something I have tried to put into practice not in the "elite" halls of the Vatican but on the ground in inner city London and amongst the poorest of the poor in Sudan and South Sudan. Deo gratias!

>145 brone:

While it is true that an awareness of Marx's analysis of the class struggle was one of the influences on Latin American liberation theology, nevertheless its foundation is strictly Christian, drawing its inspiration from the Old Testament (Exodus and various prophets, for example) and the New (eg the wonderful liberation declaration in Luke 4:16-21), and from the overall teaching and example of Jesus. There are some parallels in the liberation expressed by both Marx and Jesus, as the pope may have said, but it would be interesting to read his entire quote in context. Liberation theology in Africa grew up parallel to and independently from Latin America, was far less influenced by Marx, and focused more on liberation from colonial and cultural oppression rather than the social class struggle. And yes, you're correct in saying that liberation theology methodology was later extended to other groups marginalised and oppressed not by class but because of their race, gender, sexual orientation or whatever. It's important to note that liberation theology is both a praxis theology and a grassroots theology, developed by the poor and marginalised based on their own experience of living as oppressed Christians, not by elites in ivory towers who have no experience of that life. Thanks be to God.

I don't think you'll find any Christians who hold "the upside down vision of the world in which God is seen as the oppressor and Mother Earth the revered god", a straw person if ever I saw one. God is love, not oppression. However there is no doubt that the institutional Church has at times been the oppressor - look at the Inquisition or the Spanish conquest of South America in the Catholic Church, or the alternate purges of Catholics and protestants in various European countries after the Reformation, or the support for apartheid by the Dutch Reformed Church, etc. You might also be referring obliquely to the fact that although God is not confined by a single human gender and can only be described by partial and incomplete images, some of those images have become reified and may appear oppressive to certain groups. God is not an old white man with a long white beard ruling rather oppressively like a feudal lord. There are many other images of God which can be found in the bible and in the Tradition of the Church, and these are being rediscovered and reclaimed alongside and complementary to the image of God as Father. Again, thanks be to God.

As for the manner in which the Church is dealing with the Chinese communist regime, history will judge whether it is wise or successful. It's a difficult and complex situation. Should the Church cut off all contact with the Chinese government and with that part of the Chinese Catholic Church which has found a form of accommodation with the ruling regime, and resign itself to supporting only a clandestine underground Church? Or should it seek dialogue with all parties and try to maintain open channels with the oppressive regime? "You have heard how it was said, You will love your neighbour and hate your enemy. But I say this to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; so that you may be children of your Father in heaven, for he causes his sun to rise on the bad as well as the good, and sends down rain to fall on the upright and the wicked alike" (Matthew 5:43-45). I don't know the answer to that question, but I don't think it's either fair or helpful to snipe at those who find themselves having to make the decisions. It's a dilemma which faced earlier popes who had to decide how to deal with regimes such as German Nazism, Spanish and Italian Fascism, and Soviet and Chinese communism, and they have been both praised and criticised in different circles for the paths they chose. I thank God that I don't have to make those tough choices, and I pray for and offer my moral support to those who do.

Edited to add a couple of further thoughts.

Firstly, another forerunner and foundation of both liberation theology and Catholic social doctrine is Pope Leo XIII's 1891 encyclical Rerum novarum (literally "revolutionary change"!) on "Rights and Duties of Capital and Labour", which calls for "some opportune remedy" to "be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class" (RN3). It articulates the Catholic Church's response to the social conflict in the wake of capitalism and industrialisation which had provoked socialist and communist movements and ideologies.

Secondly it must be remembered that from the 1950s and 1960s when the seeds of liberation theology began to appear, the capitalist west was supporting the most brutal right wing regimes in Latin America. Similarly, colonialism, neocolonialism and apartheid in Africa and Asia were also being shored up by the capitalist west. Capitalism and western ideology were rightly identified with oppression, while China and the Soviet Union were supporting liberation struggles against this oppression. Hence it is hardly surprising that communism was viewed favourably in many circles during that period.

>146 John5918:

And having quoted Rerum novarum, "Rights and Duties of Capital and Labour", I think it's relevant to mention this message from Pope Francis, who is anything but "silent" on these matters.

Pope: Church must accompany workers in midst of job insecurity
(ACI Africa)

Pope Francis sends a message to a meeting of the Christian Workers’ Movement in the Spanish city of Segovia, and urges the Church to accompany people struggling on the margins of the economy... He said the Church especially needs to accompany people who are on the peripheries of the world of work. “Our commitment cannot be limited to isolated speeches or actions,” he said, “but must be a constant witness of solidarity and support to people in situations of labor and social vulnerability.” The Church’s mission with workers, he added, includes being close to people who have lost their jobs or suffer from a lack of employment opportunities. Christians cannot remain enclosed in the walls of our church buildings, he urged, inviting everyone to reach out actively to those in need and to seek “just and lasting solutions” to job insecurity...

>148 brone:

Let me comment on a few points.

He now claims the "Synod was the dream of PVl" first we have heard of that

Well, no, it's not the first we've heard of that. It was Pope Paul VI who first instituted regular synods in order to maintain the collegial (ie synodal) approach of Vatican II. Far from "subverting the papacy" it actually strengthens the papacy as the pope is moving in concert with the bishops, and now in this upcoming synod, with other non-ordained members of the Church.

we have made progress everything has been voted on and listened to" Hmmn in other words the synod has been rigged

The synod is a transparent listening process, a journeying together, so it would be very difficult to rig it. If you mean that the issues being surfaced by the vast majority of Catholics are different from those of your own small group, well, so be it. Remember that everyone had the opportunity to participate in the consultations, and those who ridiculed the process and refused to engage with it really only have themselves to blame if their issues do not rise to the surface. But your concerns about liturgy have been raised in the north American group, albeit not in most of the rest of the world where it is not an issue, and they will be discussed.

"Vatll has not yet begun to be realized"

Many would agree with this statement. I recall as far back as 1985 a book entitled Whatever Happened to Vatican II bemoaned the slow progress in implementing the reforms, and I don't think it has sped up much since then. Councils are not everyday events - there have only been 21. After the Council of Trent it took 300 years until Vatican I, and then a further hundred until Vatican II. Sixty years is a very short time in the lifespan of the Church, and reformation takes time to be implemented and to bear fruit. But as mentioned above, the synodal process set up by Pope Paul VI in part ameliorates the need for a full council by allowing the bishops to meet in synod more regularly.

the Old Catholics who claim to hold the depository of the Tue Faith

The key word here is "claim". The depository of the True Faith is held by the Church, led by the Pope and the bishops. And actually "Old Catholics" are a schismatic group who separated from the Catholic Church after Vatican I. I'm a little surprised that you identify with them as you have constantly denied having schismatic tendencies.

Bergoglio's determination to erradicate the unmentionable vice of the Greeks for that is what he is implying

I have no idea at all what you are talking about here. Could you clarify?

Sounds like fascism to me

I would have thought that humanism and fascism are pretty diametrically opposed.

the globalist church

What do you understand by the term "globalist church"? As I understand it, the Catholic Church is indeed "globalist". The word catholic means universal.

I used to think the Vatican was a neutral state

The Vatican is indeed a politically neutral state, but one often tries to find venues in which one party does not have the home ground advantage, or at least to rotate between different venues.

smelling sheep

The bishops and priests who "smell like their sheep" are almost certainly the ones who welcome Pope Francis' pastoral and merciful approach, as they are pastors who live amongst their people and are in touch with the everyday experience of the poor, the oppressed, the marginalised, the vulnerable.

>150 brone: I pointed out to them they should mention the 105 million people murdered by states in the last hundred years of course I was riddiculed with "Thats sad but just an anecdote"

I read that thread. You were not "ridiculed". You were politely asked to stay on the topic of the thread: "Sad anecdote but please keep it to a relevant thread". It did not say "just an anecdote", but I presume it was suggesting that a post going into detail about the murder of Maximilian Kolbe is anecdotal to the topic. This is not the first time you have been politely advised to post in relevant threads, and it cannot be construed as making you a victim of ridicule.

Interestingly in that post you refer to 205 million dead, whereas here you mention only 105 million. Why the reduction? It's actually very difficult to put a figure on genocide, depending on whether one confines oneself to the UN definition or whether one includes other mass killings which may fall outside that strict definition, but a quick search on Google gives figures of between about 60 and 150 million in the 20th century. But regardless of the statistics, even one such death is an unacceptable tragedy.

Also interestingly, in that post you say they were murdered "because each and every one of them were an unrepeatable center of dignity and freedom, made in the image of Christ and made for eternity, not the whim of governor, bureaucrat, commandant or ideolgue", and yet you appear to be unsympathetic towards transgender people who are being targeted by "the whim of governors, bureaucrats, commandants and ideologues" precisely because of their "unrepeatable centre of dignity and freedom, made in the image of Christ and made for eternity". Isn't that rather inconsistent of you?

>152 brone: coprophilia

I presume you're referring to this story, which I found on NPR: Pope Francis Warns Media Against Infatuation With Scandal, Citing 'Coprophilia'? Reminds me of a story that one of our retired South Sudanese bishops, who was renowned for using African stories about animals and plants to make his point, often told. He tells of the bees which flit from plant to plant picking up and depositing lifegiving pollen and honey, and also of the flies which flit around picking up and depositing death-dealing shit and disease. He asks his audience to reflect on whether they are like the bees, or the flies. I suspect Pope Francis is making a similar point. Unlike the interpretation of his message which springs from your fertile imagination, he is warning against the harm of spreading gossip, innuendo, rumour, scandal, disinformation, slander, sullying people, and he is imploring people to communicate positively; indeed if you read the whole article, much of that is stated explicitly.

Funnily enough I was thinking of posting in this thread earlier today, refuting the "Silent Francis" title with yet another issue on which he is not silent, that of the encroachment of excessive worldliness into religious life, and of compromising core values with the allure of worldly ideologies. He speaks of people who "instead of living by doctrine, by the true doctrine that always develops and bears fruit, they live by ideologies. But when you abandon doctrine in life to replace it with an ideology, you have lost, you have lost as in war". There are articles on it here and here, in case anyone is interested.

>154 brone: wonder why he uses the dead language so discouraged for the rest of us

I suspect you're aware that this is a misrepresentation, but some readers may not be, so let me clarify. Latin is still an official language in the Catholic Church and many documents are promulgated in Latin. The use of Latin in the liturgy is encouraged, as taught clearly in the most authoritative Church document on the liturgy, Sacrosanctum concilium, issued in December 1963. The normative text of the Catholic mass is in Latin, and all the vernacular versions are translated from it. Mass can be celebrated in Latin anywhere, any time, without any restrictions. What is restricted is the use of an older form of the mass, variously known as the Tridentine Rite or the antecedent rite, or incorrectly by its proponents as "The Latin Mass", which was superseded in 1970 by the current form of the mass. The antecedent rite is not totally banned, but it is not approved for use in normal parish settings, where it is naturally expected that the universal rite of the Church should be used, whether in Latin or in the local language.

many of these facts are however disputed by reputable scientists

No, they are not. The human impact on the current climate crisis is accepted by virtually all "reputable scientists". Disagreements amongst scientists focus on details, not on the overall picture.

It is notoriously ideological and clearly a debatable topic

Well yes, it is "ideological" and "debatable" only because right wing culture warriors choose to dispute scientific evidence on political and ideological rather than scientific grounds.

For what it's worth, Pope Francis' two recent documents on the climate crisis, Laudato si' and Laudate deum, have been widely welcomed in the Global South, which is suffering disproportionately from the climate crisis caused largely by the Global North (plus China). Most of the ideologues who deny the climate crisis are, unsurprisingly, in the Global North, and particularly the USA. There are no climate change deniers in Africa!

>156 brone:

I would suggest that far from being "the most famous ex Jesuit in the world", hardly anyone has ever heard of him. I certainly hadn't, until the sexual abuse allegations against him surfaced recently. If his name is well known, perhaps it's in part because people like your good self keep publicising it as part of your ongoing campaign against Pope Francis?

As for clericalism, it is indeed a deep seated problem within the Church. I recall a well known US newspaper reporter who came to South Sudan around fifteen years ago, and deep in the bush he met a missionary priest whom he praised for his dedicated service to the poor, but described as "the worst dressed priest" he'd ever met. I can name a few other priests who might vie for that distinction, but give me them any day over the young priests poncing around in fancy clobber instead of doing proper pastoral work. I'm travelling at the moment so I can't supply the link immediately, but I'll post it later if anybody is interested. The title is striking, particularly as he is not known as a religious apologist: "Who can mock this Church?"

Here's what Jesuits thought in Francis's youth. America magazine a 1967 editorial states, " contraception is essential for sound family life. Yes essential. Without reliance on contraception in certain situations it would not be possible for most couples to achive the values proclaimed by the Church as part of the marital state. The Church will have to change her doctrine either on contraception or on marriage. It is no longer possible for the Church to maintain them both". Fast forward 56 years and they are still trying to alter the state of marriage. Less than a year earlier PPVl said "the traditional teaching of the Church (against birth control) cannot be considered as not binding as if the Magisterium of the Church were in a state of doubt" You see what happens to bishops and priests when the disagree with the Jesuit Pope's non magisterial topics. For 56 years the Jesuits were and now are never explicit about anything, ambiguity is their stick. Their mode is insinuation as in 1967 the goal to destroy orthodoxy is by holding it up as absurd....JMJ....

>159 brone: Here's what Jesuits thought

Perhaps more accurate to say, "Here's what the editor of one Jesuit magazine thought"?

the goal to destroy orthodoxy is by holding it up as absurd

The goal is for theologians to obtain a deeper understanding of our faith, a process which often is nuanced and ambiguous but certainly not absurd. You'll recall that the commission appointed by Pope Paul VI to examine the issue believed that contraception might be permissible in some circumstances ("in certain situations", as your quote says). The pope disagreed, as is his prerogative, and the Church officially followed his teaching, just as we now follow the teaching of Pope Francis. However in fact it would seem that a large number (the majority?) of Catholics in the Global North do not follow Church teaching on this particular issue (sensus fidei in action?) In the Gobal South, where contraception is less readily available, they often have no option.

>161 brone:

No, once again you conflate disagreement with the pope on particular issues with openly and publicly undermining the authority and legitimacy of the papacy and the teaching authority of the Church on an unprecedented level. There has been disagreement with successive popes on many issues (eg with Pope Paul VI on contraception - see above) but never in living memory has it descended to the sort of personal attacks and questioning of the legitimacy of a pope or a Council as with the current pope.

The benefits removed from Cardinal Burke are not a pension, which as you say is indeed a right not a privilege. "Cardinals leading departments in the Roman Curia, the church’s central administration, are given grace-and-favor apartments and paid up to $5,900 a month. But Burke no longer has a job in the church’s central administration, and the decision about his apartment comes as the Vatican seeks to tackle a financial shortfall by ensuring it is getting market rates on its properties" (link). In other words, the house and the salary go with the job, and as with any such benefits, when the job finishes, so do the benefits. If a load of cardinals who no longer have jobs in the Vatican were still being paid and housed, no doubt there would be cries of corruption. The good cardinal's pension is a completely different matter.

>163 brone:

For as long as I can remember there have been local discussions about where a bishop should live after he has retired. If he quietly becomes chaplain to a convent or some other low profile ministry, as most do, there is no problem with him remaining in the diocese. However if a long-serving, well-known and often well-loved bishop chooses to maintain a high public profile and begins to overshadow and even undermine his successor, sometimes causing conflict and division within the diocese, there are many who feel that it is better for him to move away and leave the new younger bishop to get on with the job unhindered by the baggage of his predecessor. I have known both types of retired bishop. I don't know all the details of Bishop José Luís Azcona Hermoso, and I suspect neither do you, but this should be viewed in the context I have just described rather than attacking Pope Francis with insulting references to "brown shirts" which I really think have no place in a Christian nor indeed any rational conversation. Worth remembering also that he was not a diocesan priest but a member of a religious order (Order of Augustinian Recollects), and they often have their own retirement arrangements and protocols.

>165 brone:

Coadjutor bishops are not "watchdogs" - the term simply means a bishop who has the right of succession once the current bishop dies or retires. There is no restriction on saying the Latin Mass - the only restrictions are on using the superseded antecedent rite rather than the universal rite. Many priests from Africa and elsewhere in the world are now re-evangelising Europe (and north America). The general decline of Christianity in the Global North is probably one of the reasons the College of Cardinals chose a pope from the Global South, where Christianity is vibrant and where most of the worlds Christians live. Whether or not a secular president has called the pope something or other is really not very relevant.

>167 brone:

Thanks. It's good to see these courageous people standing up against oppression. God be with them.

>169 brone:

Thanks again for reminding us of courageous people in various parts of the world who stand up against oppression. As you say, it's a choice they make, and it's one way of many ways in which people resist oppression. I wouldn't say that the Vatican "is silenced by communist thugs", but it has chosen a different, non-confrontational, non-adversarial method to try to address the issue while trying to avoid demonising the oppressor. In the literature on nonviolent resistance around 200 different methods of resistance have been listed. The likes of Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela and Jesus recognised that even the oppressor is a human being, a victim in their own way, who needs to be loved and liberated, converted one might say (in the sense of metanoia, change, rather than conforming to someone else's political ideology) rather than dehumanised. And while the Church stands up against oppression, it is not part of the zero sum contest between capitalist and communist political ideologies.

I wish you and the world a happy and holy Christmas and a peaceful and blessed new year. Once again we are praying for peace, justice and democracy in Sudan, South Sudan and so many other countries, for the day when the voice of the ordinary people will be heard above the braying of the military, economic and political elites, and the ideologues of whatever stripe. When will the world learn that violence is never the solution to political and socio-economic problems, and that violence merely begets more violence, a vicious spiral that needs to be broken, whether in Sudan, South Sudan, Ukraine, Russia, Palestine, Israel or wherever?

>171 brone:

I would have liked to say that I don't think anyone in the world is willing to "allow" people to murder, rape, kidnap and dismember ciitizens, but sadly I seem to have been proved wrong, as it seems that at the moment the UK and the USA are willing to allow the Israeli government to do so. Nobody denies the right of the Israeli government to protect its citizens from Hamas, but the slaughter of more than twenty thousand civilian men, women and children, their forcible displacement from their homes, and the destruction of the infrastructure that they need to survive, is genocide, not legitimate self-defence.

I'm not a pacifist so I have no idea what they would say, neither do I know for sure what Jesus would have done if he had come across the traveller being assaulted. I expect he would have tried to de-escalate the situation, acting proportionately, maybe interposing himself between the attackers and the victim, taking the blows upon himself. On the occasion in the gospels when Jesus himself was the victim of an assault in the Garden of Gethsemane, Peter drew his sword to defend him, surely a case where the use of violence might be considered justified in order to prevent Jesus' unjust detention, torture and death. But Jesus' response to Peter was, "Put away your sword". Better to suffer injustice and violence than to inflict violence. But whatever Jesus would have done, I am pretty certain that he would not have killed the attackers, killed their children and womenfolk, killed twenty thousand people who happened to be of the same race or nationality and who happened to get in the way of his disproportionate violence, bulldozed their homes and thrown them out into the wilderness in winter without the means of survival, bombed them from the air, destroyed their health facilities and cut off humanitarian aid.

175 Brone:I like your posts in a universe that seems to be dominated by another but can I show my ignorance by asking what 'JML' signifies?

>173 brone:

Well, we may disagree here, but I would think that the role of a pastor and peacebuilder would be to pray for the victims and perpetrators of violence, and to pray for peace, not to make political statements.

The recent massacre of 200 Christians in Nigeria has received plenty of attention in the Catholic media, with a grest deal of comment from Nigerian Christians who understand the situation and have to live with the consequences. Some examples include Nearly 200 Killed in Christmas Weekend Attacks on Nigerian Christians, Leaders Urge Action; In 2024, Let’s be “positive change” Agents: Nigerian Catholic Bishop in New Year Message; Catholic Biblical Scholars in Nigeria Call for “personal responsibility” in Peacebuilding; and Catholic Priests and Bishops in Nigeria Told to “rise above tribal sentiments”, all from ACI Africa. Worth noting, perhaps, that the bishops speak of poor governance and are calling for action from the president and from individual NIgerians, not the pope, and in the last one the bishop speaks of tribal and cultural differences which form part of the conflict dynamics in Nigeria. It is not as simplistic as "Fulani, Jihadist, Islamic, Muslim terror".

As you probably know, Pope Francis spoke of persecuted Christians on the feast of the first Christian martyr, St Stephen (link):

Christians have been persecuted by adversarial groups since the time of the apostles, and in varied parts of the world Christians continue to face existential threats from governments and other entities. On the Dec. 26 feast of St. Stephen, the first Christian martyr who died around 34 A.D., Pope Francis said in his Angelus that “2,000 years later, unfortunately, we see that the persecution continues.” “There are still those, and there are many of them, who suffer and die to bear witness to Jesus, just as there are those who are penalized at various levels for the fact of acting in a way consistent with the Gospel, and those who strive every day to be faithful, without ado, to their good duties, while the world jeers and preaches otherwise,” the pontiff said. Religious freedom is shrinking globally, according to multiple reports. A report from the watchdog group Open Doors found that the persecution of Christians is at its highest point in three decades. It found that some of the worst locations for Christians were North Korea, Somalia, Yemen, Eritrea, Libya, Nigeria, Pakistan, Iran, Sudan, and India...

>174 PossMan:

Sorry if you feel that it is dominated by one voice; I rather think it is dominated by two voices! Hopefully others will join in to make it a more balanced conversation. These are issues I feel strongly about, and when I see something I disagree with, I will respond, hopefully always trying to be charitable and courteous - my apologies for the times I fall short - mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa*. Our opinions and worldviews are generally formed by our experience, our context and the information available to us, and I try to share where I am coming from. I will challenge information which I believe to be dubious by citing credible counter-information.

* A line from the Catholic Confiteor prayer of confession said at the beginning of mass, translated as "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault" - hopefully the use of Latin is not out of place in this thread which is about a Catholic pope.

>174 PossMan: "asking what 'JML' signifies?"

I guess you mean JMJ, but I might be mistaken? JMJ = dedicated to Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
https://aleteia.org/2020/07/10/what-does-jmj-stand-for/

>177 bnielsen:: Thanks.

>179 brone: we will continue to say our Rosaries

Indeed. Along with the Holy Father: Pope Francis: Entrust 2024 to the Mother of God; Pope Francis Reflects on Mary’s Motherhood, Prays for Nicaragua During New Year’s Angelus.

Note that Pope Francis' prayer intentions for 2024 include new martyrs and those fleeing their own countries, which I think covers a wider spectrum of the different causes of violence and suffering than you mention, and he also prays particularly for "the Church in Nicaragua, which has been at the center of an escalating persecution launched by the country’s president".

I would still be interested to hear why you, as a faithful practising Catholic, constantly choose to refer to Pope Francis by his surname in a rather dismissive fashion, instead of using any of his titles, or even just his chosen papal name Francis, as most Catholics and even other faiths and the secular world do.

disrupting, airports, subways

Just a personal opinion, but I would say that the biggest disruption to airports and other public institutions is heavy handed security measures. But if you are referring to current protests about Israeli actions in Palestine, it is not Muslims who are demonstrating, it is Palestinians, made up of both Christians and Muslims, along with people of all faiths and none who oppose the current genocide, including many peace-loving Israelis.

>181 brone:

I find it interesting that you continue to present your minority view as "we Americans", and you pour scorn on all those other US Catholics who are in tune with the pope and the Church, to say nothing ofthe rest of the world.

The American Church is the Liveliest in the western world

That's an interesting unsupported claim which might well benefit from some scrutiny. But perhaps the key phrase is "the western world". The western world is no longer the centre of Christianity in general nor of Catholicism in particular. The vast majority of Christians, and the most vibrant "flourishing" churches, are in the Global South.

On the subject of "Bergoglio":

Italian priest struck off for calling Francis an ‘anti-pope usurper’ (Guardian)

In a video of the homily, which lasted more than 20 minutes and was shared online, Guidetti refers to the Argentinian pontiff – whose former name is Jorge Mario Bergoglio – as simply “Mr Bergoglio”, before describing him as “a Jesuit Freemason linked to world powers, an anti-pope usurper”... Simone Giusti, the bishop of Livorno, issued a decree saying Guidetti had “publicly committed an act of a schismatic nature” and ordered him to be “removed from the office of parish priest of St Ranieri in Guasticce”... Guidetti, who was known locally to have made previous anti-Francis remarks, said he was proud to have been excommunicated, adding it was “a mark of pride to be out of this church, which is a tyranny”... {Francis'} papacy has been embraced by progressives, but he has endured battles with a deeply conservative faction of the church, who are irked by the attention he has given to issues such as social inequality, the climate crisis and refugees... Some of the pontiff’s detractors believe his appointment was invalid...

Any of that sound familiar? Non-Catholic readers may not be aware that there has been plenty of room for disagreement with popes on many issues in modern times, both "progressive" popes like John XXIII and John Paul I, "conservatives" like John Paul II and Benedict XVI, and those in between like Paul VI, but rarely has it descended to the level of vitriolic abuse and disparagement seen amongst Francis' detractors. Worth noting that ultra-conservatives also chose to question the validity of the election of John XXIII in 1958, sparking a small schismatic movement called Sedevacantism (from the Latin sede vacante, vacant chair, a term commonly used during the interregnum between the death or retirement of a bishop and the appointment of his successor). There was also another small schismatic movement called the Society of St Pius X, harking back to an early 19th century pope. It seems self-styled "conservative" Catholics are far more intolerant of popes they don't like than the rest of the Catholic family is.

>184 brone:

Fine, but perhaps then instead of referring constantly to the all-encompassing "we Americans" it would be better to use the more accurate words "we fundamentalist conservative Americans"? There are a huge number of American Christians who do not follow the theology nor ideology promoted by yourself and your fellow travellers, and while you might be a "large segment" (who knows how large or small?) you are not some overwhelming majority that entitles you to include "all Americans" in your identity group. You frequently name, albeit disparagingly, a number of the more prominent "we Americans" who disagree with your view of Church, nation and world, including cardinals such as Cupich, Tobin, McElroy and Gregory, but it would be easy to name many other US bishops, priests, religious brothers and sisters, missionaries, and laity who give the lie to your claims.

soft on socialism, facism, communism

I don't see many evangelical fundamentalist conservative (your words) Christians in the USA who are "soft on fascism", given that a large segment of them appear to support extreme right wing ideologies and politicians which can certainly be described as fascism.

>186 brone:

Difficult to know how to respond to a rant which uncharitably labels and disparages whole groups of people. Not really sure why anybody on a Christian discussion platform should take seriously a post describing the leader of a major Christian Church as "His grouchiness" and leading Church figures as "grinches", but as usual I will nevertheless try to take you seriously and give a rational and civil response. Some obvious rejoinders:

Firstly, I'm not sure why you think Pope Francis is not responding to dubia (questions for clarification from bishops) given that a very clear response has just beeen issued to questions raised by German and some other bishops, which reaffirms traditional Church teaching on the questions raised. When you say "reading between the lines", don't you actually mean projecting your own interpretation onto it? Incidentally, I haven't heard any US or European bishops supporting ploygamy as you claim.

Secondly, you seem to like the term "cancel", which you use whenever anybody issues a considered opinion disagreeing with yours. "Like all leftist regimes they eliminate their opposition" is irrelevant since the Church is not leftist nor a regime (indeed Pope Francis has repeatedly cautioned against bringing left/right political ideology and culture wars into the Church), but if you look around the world it is authoritarian regimes and institutions of both left and right which suppress political dissent. The Church used to suppress dissenting opinions, most recently perhaps when Pope John Paul II declared that the issue of women priests could no longer be discussed (I know at least one respected Catholic scripture scholar who resigned on that issue, saying "I don't mind them telling me that we can't have women priests, but it is unacceptable for them to tell me that we cannot even discuss the issue!"). A prominent Catholic theologian whom you apparently love to hate, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, was suppressed ("cancelled") for many decades, and it is only recently that his work is being rediscovered, with both its strengths and weaknesses. In my lifetime I can think of many prominent Catholics who were "cancelled" (Hans Kung, Edward Schillebeeckx, Yves Congar and Charles Curran are some who spring to mind immediately) but in today's more open Church are now recognised as the great theologians that they were.

And finally, sadly the Catholic Church in the USA and UK is not "multiplying like bunnies", it is in fact in slow decline as far as numbers go, as discussed (with statistics) in another thread in this group. Where the Church is multiplying is in the Global South.

>188 brone:

Not sure who "you guys" is, but it might be worth responding to some of the points I make rather than resorting to argumentum ad hominem. Disagreeing with you, and giving credible facts and reasons for doing so is not "gaslighting". And appealing to a "sense of humour" is a well worn tactic for disparaging, defaming, denigrating, dismissing and even dehumanising individuals and groups of people. "Oh, but I was only joking". On a Christian conversation board can we not treat everybody with love and respect, even those we disagree with?

Return to God’s Word Rather than Social Media’s "violence of words": Pope Francis (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis has called Catholics to spend more time with the saving power of God’s word as society and social media amplify “the violence of words.” Speaking of the “immense power” that the word of God can unleash in people’s lives, Pope Francis encouraged us to always “have the Gospel within easy reach.” “While society and social media accentuate the violence of words, let us draw closer to and cultivate the quiet word of God that brings salvation, that is gentle, that does not make a loud noise and that enters into our hearts,” Pope Francis said on Jan. 21. The word of God, he said, “does not leave us self-absorbed but expands hearts, changes courses, overturns habits, opens up new scenarios, and discloses unthought-of horizons”... “The word of God unleashes the power of the Holy Spirit,” Pope Francis said. “Christ’s word not only liberates us from the burdens we bear, past and present; it also makes us mature in truth and in charity. It enlivens the heart, challenges it, purifies it from hypocrisy, and fills it with hope,” he said.

>192 brone:

Thanks for that quote from John Henry Newman, although I do wish you would cite your sources so we can all easily read your interesting quotes in full and in context. But yes, he is right. It seems there are many "enemies" within the Church at the moment, people who ridicule the papacy and the teaching authority of the Church, and who resort to "the violence of words", spreading dissent, division and disinformation on social media, as the pope has intimated in the article posted in >191 John5918:. There is of course no accountability nor due process in social media attacks.

Pope Francis Thanks Vatican Journalists for Reporting on Scandals in the Church (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis thanked the Vatican press corps on Monday for reporting on scandals in the Church with “delicacy” in a media environment that he said often “distorts religious news.” Journalists accredited to the Holy See Press Office met the pope in a private audience at the Vatican’s Apostolic Palace on Jan. 22. “Being a journalist is a vocation, somewhat like that of a doctor, who chooses to love humanity by curing illnesses. In a certain sense, the journalist does likewise, choosing to touch personally the wounds of society and the world,” Pope Francis said. The pope encouraged journalists covering the Vatican to ground their work “on the solid rock of responsibility for the truth, not the fragile sands of gossip and ideological interpretations”...

>195 brone: the pushback from all over the world, entire bishop's conferences in Africa

The bishops of Africa sought clarification from the Holy Father about a particular issue which is very culturally sensitive in Africa. They did not abuse, denigrate, ridicule nor "resist" him, nor engage in a public war of words, but emphasised respect, unity and understanding. They sought dialogue, and came up with a statement which was mutually crafted and agreed by the president of the Symposium of Episcopal Conferences of Africa and Madagascar (SECAM), the head of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, and the Holy Father himself. See SECAM President Explains How Rejection of Fiducia Supplicans in Africa was Handled for an account by Cardinal Fridolin Ambongo Besengu, the president of SECAM. “The Episcopal Conferences of all Africa, which have strongly reaffirmed their communion with Pope Francis, believe that the extra-liturgical blessings proposed in the declaration Fiducia Supplicans cannot be carried out in Africa without exposing themselves to scandals.”

We are not the Church of...

There is one universal Church, not the Church of "Burke, Strickland, Vigano, Schneider and a few others", nor "the Church of Poland, Hungary, Mali, Cameroon and many in the US", to use your words - nor "youse guys", as you also often say. As we say in the Nicene Creed, "I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church". I certainly believe in one Church, value all attempts to maintain that unity and communion, and resist attempts to divide us and polarise the Church. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:11-13, "it is clear that there are serious differences among you. What I mean is this: every one of you is declaring, 'I belong to Paul,' or 'I belong to Apollos,' or 'I belong to Cephas,' or 'I belong to Christ.' Has Christ been split up? Was it Paul that was crucified for you, or was it in Paul's name that you were baptised?" As Catholics we are part of that one Catholic Church, and like Paul, must resist attempts to split it up. And incidentally, as Christians of all denominations we are also called upon to work for unity, which is why ecumenism is so important, but that's a topic for another thread.

Edited to add: And here's another report on the pope's recent words, this one published by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, which represents "many in the US": Amid 'barrage' of words online and off, listen to God's word, pope says. Returning to one of his favourite themes, namely evangelisation, or spreading the Gospel, "After Mass, Pope Francis appeared at the window of his study overlooking St. Peter's Square to pray the Angelus with visitors and told them that to proclaim the Gospel 'is not wasted time... Brothers, sisters, every one of us has received the call to evangelize, and to do so in the state of life in which we find ourselves, with the abilities, friends, work, age and neighborhood we have,' he said."

>197 brone: Marxists catholics of today

Are there any Marxist Catholics? I'd be interested to meet them.

interest in blessing sin

I'm not aware of anyone who is interested in blessing sin. We bless human beings who have reached out, however imperfectly, to ask for God's grace, and we do so without quizzing them as to their moral status. We are all flawed and sinful human beings, in need of God's grace.

a huge majority of my co-religionists identify with the marginalized, in other words those who are not marginalized themselves seek to identify with those that are, imitation is empathy in its highest form for them in the meantime hypocritically living high off the hog berating those of us who are not marginalized and are happy to be so.

Surely the point of identifying with the marginalised, disadvantaged and vulnerable is to reduce their marginalisation, disadvantage and vulnerability, not to imitate or even empathise with it? It is also in keeping with the example set by Jesus, who identified with the marginalised of his time - people with leprosy and other diseases, women, children, prostitutes, aliens (eg Samaritans), enemies, corrupt government officials, widows, etc.

the acceptance of the torn jeans, tattoos, graffitti, as art. Oh yes I admit that there is skill in these disfigurements, but skill is not art. Not long ago these "arts" were regulated to prisoners, gangs, and drunken sailors

What you're basically saying is that there were cultural, societal and class prejudices against practices which were accepted by other cultures and social classes. You come from the culture that disapproves, so you are not happy. But I would venture to suggest that it has nothing to do with Pope Francis (silent or otherwise) or religion; in Britain we would probably call it class prejudice. Incidentally not all tattooed sailors are drunken. Graffiti can be artistic, as witnessed by the likes of Banksy. It can brighten up neglected and dilapidated neighbourhoods, and be used to spread inspirational and educational messages. It can also be pure vandalism. I particulary object to people painting graffiti onto trains. As for torn jeans, well, who will ever understand fashion? Stranger things have been accepted by western cultures as fashionable, artistic and "normal".

>199 brone:

Well, funnily enough I don't really agree with any of that. Of course Marxism has been in dialogue with the faith, just like ancient Roman and Greek civilisations, mediaeval kingdoms and empires, feudalism, the Enlightenment, the industrial revolution, patriarchy, militarism, capitalism and many other political, social and cultural dispensations over the last two millennia which have come into contact with Christianity, and all have had some influence on Christianity as we now know it, and often vice versa. But Christianity is not a political or socio-economic ideology, so neither capitalism nor its twin Marxism can be identified with Christianity, which makes it difficult for me to see the relevance of much of that post.

>203 brone:

The Vatican has clarified that the pope's reference to a "white flag" referred to the need for negotiations, not surrender (link). Virtually all armed conflicts end through negotiations rather than military "victory", and it's simply a question of how many more people need to die before the protagonists realise this. You're right of course that the pope's comments won't sit well with warmongers, whether they be the Ukrainian and Russian governments, the warring parties in Gaza, or the capitalists of the military industrial complex in the USA, but the prophetic voice of the Church has never been popular with these type of people. It is not a "deficiency" to speak unpopular truths.

I would disagree with you that "nobody" listens to the pope. I would suggest that faithful Catholics throughout the world, particularly the poor and marginalised and those suffering from violence, are gratefully listening to him, as are many other Christians and people of good will. As an example, millions of Christians in South Sudan and the Democratic Republic of Congo joyfully welcomed him last year when he travelled with two other global Christian leaders, listened to him, and are still drawing courage and inspiration from his words.

>205 brone:

Thanks for remembering some of the martyrs. Another US martyr was Fr John Kaiser, murdered in Kenya in August 2000 for speaking out against injustices. In the words of the Archdiocese of Nairobi, "As a missionary, he served the poor, advocated for justice for the oppressed and respect for human rights, especially in 1993, at the height of ethnic violence and land clashes in Kenya." He was one of my missionary colleagues. RIP.

Pope Francis Prays for Victims of Moscow Terrorist Attack at Palm Sunday Mass (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis offered prayers for the victims of the “vile terrorist attack” in Moscow at the end of his Palm Sunday Mass at the Vatican. At least 130 people died after gunmen opened fire at a musical performance in a Moscow concert hall on Friday night, according to the Associated Press. The Islamic State group’s Afghanistan affiliate claimed responsibility for the attack in Russia — a claim that U.S. intelligence officials have confirmed. Speaking in St. Peter’s Square on March 24, Pope Francis prayed for the families of the victims as well as for the conversion of the perpetrators of the attack. “May the Lord receive them in his peace and comfort their families. May he convert the hearts of those who plan, organize, and carry out these inhuman actions, which offend God, who commanded, ‘You shall not kill,’” the pope said. After offering prayers for the victims in Moscow, Pope Francis made a long appeal for peace in Ukraine, asking people to pray in particular for those in Ukraine who do not have electricity. “Let us pray for all our brothers and sisters who are suffering because of war,” the pope said...

Pope Francis Gives Thanks to Young Nigerian Priests and Nuns who Answered God’s Call (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis gave thanks on Monday for the many young Nigerians who have answered God’s call to the priesthood or religious life. In a meeting with Nigerians living in Rome on March 25, the pope said he was grateful for all that Nigerian Catholics have done to bear witness to the Gospel, especially as many parts of the country are experiencing insecurity and Christian persecution. “I also join you in thanking Almighty God for the many young Nigerians who have heard the Lord’s call to the priesthood and consecrated life and responded with generosity, humility, and perseverance,” Pope Francis said. “There are some here among you, young priests and young nuns,” he remarked. “May you always be missionary disciples, grateful that the Lord has chosen you to follow him and has sent you to zealously proclaim our faith and contribute to the construction of a more just and humane world.” Nigeria has had a vocations boom in the past 50 years. In 2019, more than 400 diocesan priests were ordained in the West African country, which also sends priests to serve dioceses facing priest shortages in the United States and Europe. Last year, Nigeria was recognized as having the highest Mass attendance in the world... Nigeria has also been recognized as one of the most dangerous countries in the world to be a Christian...

In Letter to Holy Land Christians, Pope Francis Deplores the War, Expresses Closeness (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis on Wednesday issued a letter to the Christians of the Holy Land in preparation for Good Friday, expressing his solidarity with a community that continues to suffer amid the ongoing Israel-Hamas war. “Dear brothers and sisters, allow me to tell you once more that you are not alone. We will never leave you alone but will demonstrate our solidarity with you by prayer and practical charity,” the pope wrote in his Holy Wednesday letter. “In these bleak times, when it seems that the dark clouds of Good Friday hover over your land, and all too many parts of our world are scarred by the pointless folly of war — which is always and for everyone a bitter defeat — you are lamps shining in the night, seeds of goodness in a land rent asunder by conflict,” the pope continued. Emphasizing his “paternal affection,” the pope joined the beleaguered population in sharing in their “sufferings” and “struggles.” “I embrace those most affected by the senseless tragedy of war: the children robbed of their future, those who grieve and are in pain, and all who find themselves prey to anguish and dismay,” the pope continued. Cardinal Pierbattista Pizzaballa, the Latin patriarch of Jerusalem, called the situation “objectively intolerable” in an interview last week... Quoting from Paul VI’s 1964 apostolic exhortation Nobis in Animo, Francis wrote: “The continuing tensions in the Middle East, and the lack of concrete progress toward peace, represent a constant and dire threat not only to the peace and security of those peoples — and indeed of the entire world — but also to values supremely dear, for different reasons, to much of mankind”...

From Pope Francis - I am asking in the Name of God: Ten prayers for a future of hope (SPCK, 2023) (link):

that the culture of abuse be eradicated from the Church;
protection of our common home;
resistance to fake news and hate speech;
a politics orientated towards the common good;
an end to the madness of war;
a welcome for immigrants and refugees;
greater participation in society by women;
economic growth for poor countries;
universal access to health care;
and not using the name of God to incite wars.

Francis also quotes Martin Luther King Jr: "The choice today is no longer between violence and nonviolence. It is either nonviolence or nonexistence".

Are you refering to Life: My Story Through History that came out last month?

Bergolio is at it again, talking to reporters "off the cuff". In a 60 minutes interview (who knew that was still on)? Gleaning from the lenthly interview we catch the gist of Bergoglio's drift, or do we? Bergoglio has managed in the past couple of weeks to have Catholics on the right and left scratching their heads. His base must be upset at his "stuck in a box not able to move and thats suicidal" comment. He also mentionioned something about "madness", nobody quite knows what he was refering to there. My take is that he finally is agreeing with what I've been posting in my previously deleted posts. I mean could this Jesuit's eyes be miraculously opened after all these years of being "stuck in the box" or dare I say in the past bogged down by the "spirit of the council". I mean could Bergoglio recently have read the actual documents of the council. If he did, could it be possible that Rome has finally stepped out of the box of the past with all their "round churches", Jesuit hyms and boring liturgies. Has he noticed kids falling on their knees to recieve Communion. Has he noticed the renovation of all the round churches with bare walls back to Romanesque and Gothic styles, young people are not paying attention to boomer priests today by the thousands they are in pilgrimage in the US to the Eucharistic revival in Indianapolis and in Chartres France. Maybe Bergoglio unlike the aging boomer priests wearing their rainbow sashes and funky vestments who still believe "young people" are attracted to that foolishness. Is this what Bergoglio meant by saying, "stuck in the past" or was it? Lots of contradictions coming out of Rome lately One week we are having LBGQTP++ gangs for lunch the next we are telling women it is impossible to be ordained and using homophilic bad words (heaven forbid just the thought of it) "behind closed doors". Whats going on? In my humble opinion Begoglio should read from a prepared text like all his predecessors did that would end the ambiguity and hide his grouchiness....JMJ....

>217 brone:

I think it was a homophobic word, the opposite of homophilic. He has since apologised for using the word.

Imagine If I said I was opposed to "faggotry" in the seminary but then again in my worst day I wouldn't be so crude....JMJ....

Since he apologized for opposing faggotry in seminaries the rainbow Riech has been doing cartwheels trying to explain faggotry away. Today it is still headlining news in Italy. Let's examine some of the "tap dancing". One bishop blames another, one says he is from So. America and dosen't know the word meaning. "he's just worried about the future priests", I love the Clintonesque response, "it all depends on what the word no means". In classical Roman double talk another says, "its a confidential conversation and personal observation that were mixed with general conversations, thats right out of the Bergoglian handbook of ambiguities and confusion. The next one says "pay attention to what he does not what he says". and last but not least "he was just being playful". Jimmy Martin the head of the Catholic branch of the Rainbow Riech says he knows hundreds of gay priests who have heard our confessions, married us, and buried our parents. Fr Paul Shaughnessy SJ says the majority of Jesuit trainers are homosexual. Jimmy goes on to say the church would be immeasurably poorer without homosexual priests, somehow, we'll survive without them Jim. Bergoglio for the last ten years has been full of say this then say that. Maybe its his personality or an intentional maneuver to keep us guessing. He'll be back this week to lunch with some radical of the Rainbow Reich and receiving love letters from flaming Jesuits. So Bergoglio uses obscene language this is not a new revelation, this is a Machiavellian pope who shoots from the hip, Americans get it. My opinion is that by embracing homosexual lifestyle he is coldly walking back the disaster of Fiducia Supplicans. Francis has only one more gift to give us....JMJ....

>220 brone: hundreds of gay priests who have heard our confessions, married us, and buried our parents... trainers are homosexual... the church would be immeasurably poorer without homosexual priests

That would tally with my own experience of priests. There are a huge number of homosexual priests, from every generation, not just the "boomers" that you malign so often, and definitely including the new generation of young "conservative" priests that you are so upbeat about. Just as with heterosexual priests, many are excellent, some are appalling, and some are mediocre. There's an old thread on a parallel group entitled 'The Catholic church is absolutely hoaching with gay priests and bishops'. If anyone doubts that a large percentage of our priests have been, are and will be homosexual they are closing their eyes to the reality.

I think the issue with seminaries is not so much about the performance of gay priests but more about the culture within the seminary. I understand that there are seminaries where the culture is very homosexual, which can be off-putting for heterosexual candidates. I remember twenty years ago meeting an Australian priest who had left the priesthood because he found the clerical culture within his diocese to be what he described as "homosocial"; not that there was any inappropriate behaviour, but as a heterosexual man he found he just could not fit in.

>221 John5918: And your're such a stawman....AMDG....

Not sure if this is the right thread, but brone is very concerned about the Catholic Church in China, so this article from the Tablet which gives a historical overview as well as some current analysis might be of interest.

The enduring church – Catholicism in China

>223 John5918: I'm more concerned with the Catholic Church in Rome. At world children's day a drag queen performed her dance in front of children could be referred to grooming and is beyond scandalous. "this is evil in our face" says, the holy bishop Strickland. Meanwhile Bergoglio slams conservatives last month as being suicidal a drag queen 'artist' is somehow appropriate for children. Strickland futher commented saying "cooperating with evil means we are playing with fire." Meanwhile Borgoglio has invited his favorite pro abortion "comedians" Whoopie Goldberg, Jimmy Fallon, Stephen Colbert, and climate scamming governors from NY and CA all progressive catholics like yourself. Also, this week Begoglio doubles down on faggotry yup he slurs them again yup behind closed doors. This second homophobic incident happened yesterday and already his courtiers are spining a new tale it can't be another misunderstanding like the last one. This one is simply a slip of the tongue you guys in the rainbow reich know his true colors. If you cite his record of people and groups, he has insulted and ridiculed to claim he had a slip of the tongue does not hold water. All this in the middle of the Rainbow Reich's month of pride. Who are his advisors, how many times have I asked that. Like I've said before its time to put all this Boomer Catholicism out to pasture matter of fact a new ministry for the church could be called " recovering from boomer catholicism"....AMDG....

Francis is silent but his henchman in charge of The Academy of Non-life Archbishop Paglia has more than the usual amount of US bishops upset with the release of the 80-page pamphlet eliminating past parameters of end-of-life issues. "Shockingly an (key word) "evoluton" of church teaching has come to light". Evolution here means means a moral descent beneath how pagans know how to treat their elders. Archbishop Paglia in classic Bergoglian ambiguity says this concerning the end of life " reduce the component of disagreement that depends on an imprecise use of notions implied in speech" because "the statements that are sometimes attributed to believers and which are not rarely the result of cliches that have not been adequately scutinized". This then is the progressive being deliberately nonsensible and is just as nonsensible in Italian. Heretics always hide their errors in ambiguous phrases. Ole Pags would bore a saint to death nevermind starve him with this 80 page pamphlet they have the gall to sell at 12 euros a pop. Let's translate what Pags and Bergoglio really mean. #1 past requirements not to kill people have not been "adequately scrutinized" in this "modern" era of "mercy killings". #2 Traditional Catholic bioethics is a cliche". Pag's pamphlet at 12 bucks a pop nobody wants to read, and they know it. The heresies these charlatans sell like a can of alphabet soup has never ever been hawked from the Vatican. Now ole Pags himself just turned 80 and I'm sure dying of thirst and starvation are not on his bucket list. A painless injection with some soft kumbya music for the old boomer would surfice. So these 80 pages of heresy cunningly uses language to say in a few words what the early boomers said in the seventies in reference to abortion lets have it as long as it is safe, rare, and legal. This then is Pags desire, "reduce the component of disagreement" the Catholic Church always had with the world defending the right to life....AMDG....

Thanks. I'm travelling and haven't seen this document. Could you cite a reference for it, please, so I can have a butcher's at it?

Your mention of the end of life made me think it might be this one, but on reading further I think not.

>226 John5918:

I suspect brone may be referring to this

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/258201/pontifical-academy-for-life-relea...

>227 sqdancer:

Thanks. Without seeing the actual document, which is apparently not yet available in English, from that report it all looks pretty reasonable to me.

Just three of many recent examples of the not-so-silent Pope Francis speaking out unequivocally on a number of current issues related to human life and dignity.

Pope: All Christians must reaffirm dignity of every human being (Vatican News)

In a Message to the XVII Inter-Christian Symposium, Pope Francis says all Christians must reaffirm the intrinsic dignity of every human person in the face of contemporary questions about what it means to be human... In the face of contemporary questions about what it means to be human, Pope Francis insists that it is necessary for every Christian – “whatever Church they belong to” – to reaffirm the intrinsic dignity of every human being, no matter their socio-economic position or “existential conditions” and regardless of whether or not they act in accordance with that dignity...

War has an "abyss of evil" at Its Center: Pope Francis (ACI Africa)

“Our consciences cannot fail to be moved by the scenes of death and destruction daily before our eyes,” the pope said Aug. 24, about the many violent conflicts taking place around the globe. “We need to hear the cry of the poor, the ‘widows and orphans’ of which the Bible speaks,” he continued, “in order to see the abyss of evil at the heart of war and to resolve by every means possible to choose peace”...

Intentionally Hurting Migrants "is a grave sin": Pope Francis (ACI Africa)

“The tragedy is that many, the majority of these deaths, could have been prevented,” Francis underlined in his speech to thousands in St. Peter’s Square. “It must be said clearly: There are those who work systematically and with every means possible to repel migrants,” he said. “And this, when done with awareness and responsibility, is a grave sin”...

PF latest trip to the far east was yet another excursion promoting false Univeralism. PF has done this many times in the last12 years. He has a sentimental hope that everybody can "just get along." He could have saved the day in Singapore by saying," we hope that all those of every religion will follow the path to the fullness of truth in Jesus Christ and in the meantime try not to kill each other over that truth" Thats what the Church he heads teaches for over 2,000 years. But with PF "reality is greater than ideas". The Church he heads teaches false ideas obscure reality. Many Catholics won't let PF get away with these sentimental ramblings and reckless remarks for 12 years the sentimental part of his papacy just logically contradicts his Catholic teachings. On occasions he is quite stark as when he said,"abortion is like hiring a hitman to solve a problem". So Catholic politicians who promote abortions ar to PF as mafia dons putting out a contract on an innocent child. More to the real PF on flying home from the Far East PF once again talks off the cuff much to the happiness of the progressives and the chagrin of the conservatives. He jumps into the US election cycle by Claiming a moral equivalence between abortion and deportation of illegal migrants. "Both are against life one thows out migrants the other kills children". Really PF are you sure one is as bad as the other. Abortion is the willful taking of a child's life "an evil in itself". Deportation is not only not an "evil in itself" depending on national law and even international law it may be a good-a proper protection of the life of the nation. It is estimated that 1/3 of the worlds people would like to migrate to the US. Something that cannot clearly happen without creating human disasters. So the lesser of two evils is PF's answer on a plane trip from Asia. His off the cuff remark doesn't match up with Catholic teaching since his comments don't resolve anything and are incoherent therefore, we have to decide for ourselves.+JMJ+

>230 brone: we have to decide for ourselves

Thanks, yes, for emphasising that that's exactly what Pope Francis said. He describes the position of both candidates as flawed, encourages everybody to vote, and recommends that we choose the lesser of two evils. It's up to each individual voter to decide which candidate that is.

But it's disconcerting that so many Christians apparently downplay Jesus' clear instruction to welcome the stranger in Matthew 25, and don't realise that failing to welcome them (and thus also failing to welcome Jesus himself) is a grave sin, as Pope Francis has reminded us. Note that Jesus does not say "welcome the stranger as long as there is no national or international law to the contrary, or unless a particular political ideology claims that it does not protect 'the life of the nation'". But he does say, "And they will go away to eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:46).

Sweden s proposing to pay 34,000 to any migrant they welcomed to leave!

>232 brone:

Thanks, yes, that's a good example of my point about political ideologies. Sweden is currently led by a right wing and nationalist coalition.

So, we should welcome the 21m illegal immigrants to the US and all will be hunky dory, the crime wave we are experiencing for "welcoming the stranger". We are to thank him for murdering and raping our people sometimes in broad daylight. 75% percent of all crime in Manhattan is commited by one of these welcomed strangers, Auroa Colorado has whole apartment complexes overrun by violent "strangers" from Venezuela their welcoming habitants assualted and thown out in the street. The statue of Liberty was and always will be a beacon for responsible and vetted immigration this current situation is not a "failure to welcome Jesus" it is an invasion that the American people want to stop. Funny I thought youse guys didn't believe in Hell but your quick to condemn us to hell from your walled Vatican and and Marxist ideologies +JMJ+

>234 brone:

Yes, following Jesus is difficult. Apparently some people, particularly some of those who follow right wing ideology, don't want to welcome Jesus in the stranger. Fortunately there are a lot of American people who prefer to follow and welcome Jesus.

I'm not condemning anyone to hell. It's a personal choice for each individual whether they follow and welcome Jesus or not.

Gaslighting is your real vocation.

>235 John5918: Following Jesus is difficult and for PF not so difficult, he didn't even mention him on his grand tour. Which begs the rhetorical question is the pope Catholc? Before PF there was no need to answer this question. The chaos this hip shooting pontiff causes amongst believing Catholics and secularists with his off the cuffness and his "plane" talks which are at odds with what other popes have said causes global publicity. His "path to God" statement is and always has been Theological Heresy of indifferentism condemend by numerous predecessors in Magisterial Enyclicals. All are the same and lead to divine truth directly contradicts Catholic Church teaching. The doctrine it contradicts is the one that progressives and the "spirit" of vatican ll have been trying to waterdown since Roncali opened the windows. The deep apostasy emanating from the Vatican with its emphasis on Humanism also condemned by previous popes, PF's outright rejection of Jesus Christ in Singapore is not unique in the halls of Rome. If St Ignacious of Loyola returned today, he would not find his army trying to evangelize the world. He would find a Jesuit pope who along with his fellow Jesuits have taken the age-old theory of "look to God" to the humanistic religion of "look to the people". PF's "synodal church" is to be run by people like Cupich, Martin, McElroy and a reinstution of the Marxist revolutionary theories of the 60's Jesuits. So I ask what the great Archbishop Fulton Sheen asked back in the 60's. "Who is going to save our Church? Certainly not the bishops, not even our priests and religious it is up to us the people. We have the minds, eyes, and ears to save the Church our mission is to see that our priests act like priests, bishops act like bishops and religious act like religious.+AMDG+

Following some criticism above and in parallel threads of Pope Francis' trip to some "peripheral" countries, these comments from an African archbishop may be of interest:

“The body of Christ must be synodal”: Ivorian Catholic Archbishop at Launch of New Pastoral Year (ACI Africa)

Archbishop Ignace Bessi Dogbo of the Catholic Archdiocese of Abidjan in Ivory Coast has called on the Church in the country to be truly synodal by stepping out of its comfort zone to reach out to the peripheries. “The Church, as the Body of Christ, is called to be a synodal Church where everyone walks together, where communion is lived, and where the Church rolls up its sleeves for a true missionary outreach,” Archbishop Dogbo said in his September 22 homily at the launch of e 2024–2025 pastoral year for the Archdiocese of Abidjan. He urged the people of God to leave behind their sense of security and venture into what he described as “the peripheries of modern-day tax collectors.” The Ivorian Catholic Archbishop said that the Church’s mission is to be closer to the marginalized and vulnerable, those he said are often overlooked by society. “The Church must go out and reach the peripheries where the sick lie abandoned, where the poor face uncertain futures without education, food, or clothing,” the Catholic Church leader said...

Catholic Americans thank the Vatican Secretary of State for his congratulations to Donald Trump. Did I miss the acknowledgement of PF I hope he had something nice to say.+JMJ+

>239 brone:

Vatican's chief diplomat congratulates Trump, wishes him 'great wisdom' (Reuters)

The Roman Catholic Church's highest-ranking diplomat offered congratulations to U.S. President-elect Donald Trump on Thursday and wished him "great wisdom" as he prepares to return to the White House. "We wish him great wisdom, because this is the main virtue of rulers according to the Bible," said Cardinal Pietro Parolin, the Vatican's Secretary of State. "I believe that he must work above all to be president of the entire country, thus overcoming the polarization … which has been felt very, very clearly in this time," Parolin said...

Vatican breaks silence on Trump: will ‘seek dialogue’, says key papal aide (Catholic Herald)

The Vatican will “seek dialogue” with President-elect Donald Trump, attempting to put aside previous conflicts between Pope Francis and Trump over various issues and policies... “The perspective of the Holy See is always broad, international, recognising that the United States has an important role in avoiding that the conflicts currently under way in the world, from martyred Ukraine to martyred Palestine, don’t get worse”... Spadaro said the well-known contrasts between Francis and Trump on many issues don’t have to be an impediment to dialogue. “The Holy See has never divided the world into good guys and bad guys, closing the doors to the latter and opening them to the former for building political alliances,” he said. “Catholics don’t have homogenous party affiliations or political convictions in the United States or anywhere else,” he said. “It’s held the compass of values steady, but without taking sides, precisely to avoid a spurious mixing of religion with politics.” Spadaro suggested that in the past, Trump himself sometimes has appeared to combine religion and politics, citing his 2018 State of the Union address – a tendency, Spadaro said, which can be “problematic”, but which makes dialogue with the Vatican “not only desirable, but necessary”. Spadaro also appeared to issue an indirect challenge to Trump, referring to his “Make America Great Again” mantra. The true measure of greatness, Spadaro said, will be America’s “attention to the poor, the marginalised and the needy who, like Lazarus, stand outside our door”. He added: “This applies for the many, too many, forgotten persons in America who feel they no longer belong. It also applies to migrants, who’ve constituted the very fabric of American society”...

Pope Francis and advocates add to pleas for Biden to clear federal death row (Guardian)

Pope Francis has called for commutations for people on death row in the US, as religious leaders, civil rights groups and current and former prosecutors urge Joe Biden to take executive action on capital punishment. In his Sunday prayer, Pope Francis, who has been a vocal death penalty opponent, said: “It comes to my heart to ask all of you to pray for the prisoners in the United States who are on death row. Let’s pray that their sentence would be commuted {or} changed.” On Monday, advocates fighting against capital punishment released letters from hundreds of leaders asking the president to clear federal death row before Donald Trump returns to office, with pleas from Black pastors, Catholic leaders, former prison officials, leading civil rights groups and mental health advocates. Biden has been facing intensifying pressure to grant clemency to people with death sentences after he recently announced that he was using his executive authority to pardon his own son...

Another firm public intervention by Pope Francis as part of his commitment to a consistent ethic of life, "pro-life" in the broadest sense of the term.

>241 John5918: The woman whose twelve-year-old daughter who was murdered, raped and beaten in Texas would respectfully disagree with PF after "Immigrant" gang members from Venezuela have been charged with this crime the prosecution will surely seek the death penalty.+AMDG+

>242 brone:

And while sympathising with victims, and agreeing that there must be accountability for crimes, the Catholic Church under the last few popes is moving towards the position that, no matter how horrendous a crime, there is no justification for taking another human life. An eye for an eye, a life for a life, was ruled out by Jesus. The Church reluctantly permitted it during a certain period in human history when there appeared to be no alternatives; that is no longer the case.

>243 John5918: There's that "but" again Implied after "while sympathizing with victims"+JMJ+

>244 brone:

There is no but. It's both/and. The Church both sympathises with victims of crime and refuses to condone judicial murder of perpetrators of crime.

Pope Francis urges priests to guard against spirituality that stokes divisions

Pope Francis urged Catholic priests on Sunday to guard against spiritual groups that stoke political divisions... At a conference on religion across the Mediterranean, the pontiff warned against varieties of spirituality that “seek self-aggrandizement by fueling polemics, narrow-mindedness, divisions and exclusivist attitudes.” “The Church’s pastors (are) called to be vigilant, to exercise discernment and to be constantly attentive to (these) popular forms of religiosity,” the pope said... Corsica, like much of France, has a long history of lay Catholic associations, known as confraternities. They usually focus on spiritual matters but sometimes play a role in local politics...

Pope Francis reveals two attempts on his life during 2021 visit to Iraq

Two attempted attacks on Pope Francis, including one by a suicide bomber, were foiled during his landmark trip to Iraq in 2021, the pontiff has revealed in an autobiography... “The Iraqi police had intercepted them, and detonated them. That, too, was very striking to me. This, too, was the poisoned fruit of war.” Francis’ visit to Iraq was the first by a pontiff to the country, and was considered a very high-risk journey, both for security reasons and due to the ongoing Covid-19 pandemic. But Francis explained he was determined to go to Iraq, a country rich in biblical history, and home to one of the oldest Christian communities in the world. During the trip he showed solidarity with persecuted Christians in the country and held a historic meeting with the Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani, one of the leading authorities of Shia Islam.

Both the above from CNN

Pope Francis Releases World Day of Peace Message, Renews Call to End Death Penalty (ACI Africa)

According to the pope, the path toward “a true and lasting peace” in the world is rooted in the petitions of the Lord’s Prayer and requires a desire for change on a personal, cultural, and structural level “in order to confront the present state of injustice and inequality.” Renewing the appeals for peace of his predecessors St. John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, and St. Paul VI, the Holy Father called for the development of a new financial framework based on solidarity; the elimination of the death penalty in all nations; and, using a fixed percentage of money “earmarked for armaments,” to establish a global fund to sustainably eradicate hunger and promote education in poorer countries...

“Your pontificate is a source of inspiration for millions”: Ivorian Catholic Bishop to Pope Francis on 88th Birthday (ACI Africa)

Bishop Alexis Touably Youlo of the Catholic Diocese of Agboville in Ivory Coast has praised Pope Francis’ leadership as positively impacting millions of people across the globe... “Your commitment to peace, social justice, and the protection of our planet testifies to your deep compassion and your dedication to the Church and humanity.” “Your pontificate is a source of inspiration for millions of faithful around the world. You remind us each day of the importance of living our faith authentically and of opening our hearts to the most vulnerable,” the Ivorian Catholic Bishop says. He thanks the Holy Father for his “special attention to local churches and for the love you show in every corner of the world”... “Your example of simplicity and closeness inspires us to deepen our faith and strengthen our commitment to serving others,” he says...

Although Pope Francis has faced opposition from some vested interests within the Vatican as well as small "traditionalist" and "conservative" groups within the Catholic Church in the USA, the words of this African bishop sum would seem to represent the feeling of the vast majority of Catholics in the world, most of whom live in the Global South.

I am always glad to hear that the vast majority of Catholics come from the global south and that they are now sending their orthodox Catholic priests to America were 70million Catholics are a minority. It is a tribute to those Catholic priests from the global north who brought the faith to the African continent.+JMJ+

>248 brone:

Thanks, yes, the lack of vocations to the priesthood in the Global North is leading to many African priests going as missionaries to Europe, north America and Australia.

The Rainbow Reich will make a pilgrimage to the Jubilee after all as the Vatican wavered about approving the Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer and Polygamous ++ group TDG a leading RR organization in Italy who promote Icons of Jesus with the Rainbow Reich' flag and his head of course glowing with a rainbow halo, not to mention Jesus dressed up as a drag queen with other modern psychopaths. Bergogio approves of this group. And you my friend who consorts with bishops and travel in "peace circles" I'm sure approves wholeheartedly. You condemn me for using the Popes' given name. Take a look at the headlines dude! Can anything be more obvious of the corruption and lies coming out of Rome it has recently been exposed as a money laundering, sodomistic cabal of Hierarchy who can't even give their people a decent pension and embezzled funds right in the Sistine Chapel. These fakers remind me of the proto–Marxist Judas Iscariot who complained about anointing Our Lord's feet because it cost 300 bucks. Give it to the poor this traitor says. What this current cabal says is the same thing. The Catholic Church is run by a goup of homosexuals (The Rainbow Reich) This then is the ugly truth and why so many have left the Church and if we continue to support active homosexuality in the Church your beloved global south will soon leave also+JMJ+

>250 brone:

Well yes, I do "consort" with some bishops, most of them African, some of them who have worked in Rome, and I can't say I recognise any of them in your characterisation of the leadership of the Church. I don't know Bishop Alexis Touably Youlo of the Catholic Diocese of Agboville in Ivory Coast (see >247 John5918:), but his view of the Holy Father would seem to be that of most of the bishops, priests and laity whom I meet.

As I have said before, the rainbow has been a symbol of inclusivity since the time of Noah, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. I suspect that the reason "why so many have left the Church" is the opposite of your thesis, but we can agree to disagree on that. However there is no evidence that the "global south will soon leave"; quite the opposite, as the Church is continuing to grow in these areas. I can understand that it might be demoralising for those in Europe and north America who see the size and influence of the local Church with which they are familiar diminishing, but we are a global, universal, small-c catholic Church, and we can take heart that overall the Church is growing in both numbers and vibrancy; thanks be to God, as my Irish ancestors would have said. Pope Francis can take his share of the credit for that growth and vibrancy; "a source of inspiration for millions of faithful around the world", as Bishop Youlo says.

Last weekend we celebrated the golden jubilee of the priestly ordination of another African bishop, Ugandan Archbishop Emeritus John Baptist Odama. Thousands turned up for the mass, most of them young people. In his homily he spoke about how important prayer in front of the Blessed Sacrament is to him, and in my own short speech after mass I also emphasised that point. Because someone values some parts of Catholic life and teaching which you don't, or which you may even oppose, it doesn't automatically mean that they are therefore against all the things that you favour, and vice versa; we are each a unique and complex mixture. Thank God for diversity; we pray for unity in diversity, which is not the same as uniformity. The whole mass can be seen here if anyone is interested. It's more than three hours long!

How many decades now have we heard the word "toleration" from the Lesbian, Gay, Bi-sexual, Trangender. Queer, Polygamous ++ Rainbow Reich. The cultural dominance they seek by demanding their Reich flag fly over public buildings, enforcing speech codes upon us (preferred pronouns). One of the Reichs SS units recently demanded a small Ontario town issue a "pride" proclamation for one of their holy days also demanding the Reich's flag be flown over the town hall which doesn't even have a flagpole. The town refused these brown shirts from a group called "borderland pride" For this heresy against the Reich the town was fined 10,000 and the mayor fined 5,000. The mayor refused and the Canadian Government took the money out of his bank account. No wonder Canada is on the verge of collapse due to this kind of "toleration".+JMJ+

>251 John5918: The Rainbow in Genesis according to John 5918 is a "symbol of inclusivity since the time of Noah". According to Moses who wrote Genesis It meant "there shall no more be waters of a flood to destroy all flesh" Now if John 5918 means by "inclusivity" we all aint drowning at the end of the world and that means all Lesbians, bisexuals, transgenders, gay and polygamous people and heterosexuals then I agree with him.+JMJ+

>252 brone: No wonder Canada is on the verge of collapse

Is Canada really "on the verge of collapse"? That would be a big international story, but I can't say I have seen it reported anywhere. Last I heard Canada was doing pretty well, and the number of US citizens enquiring about Canadian citizenship has increased dramatically following the recent election in the USA.

>254 John5918: If they are leaving because of DTS then they can rest in peace because that government can put you out of your misery legally.+AMDG+

"No child is ever a mistake": Pope Francis at Sunday Angelus before Christmas (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis emphasized that “no child is ever a mistake” during his last Angelus address before Christmas Day. “A child is a gift of life,” the Holy Father told crowds of pilgrims on Sunday via a video livestream...

>255 brone: DTS

What is DTS?

>257 John5918: A deranged abbreviation of "Trump Derangement Syndrome"?

Pope Francis urges world to ‘silence sound of arms’ in Christmas speech (Guardian)

Pope Francis has urged the world “to silence the sounds of arms and overcome divisions” in his traditional Christmas message, using his address to call for peace in the Middle East, Ukraine and Sudan, and express concern over the “extremely grave” humanitarian situation in Gaza. Francis addressed the conflict in Ukraine directly in his Urbi et Orbi message, calling for “gestures of dialogue and encounter, in order to achieve a just and lasting peace”. His message came hours after Russia launched a major aerial attack, using cruise missiles to target energy infrastructure across Ukraine. Speaking from the central balcony of St Peter’s Basilica, the pope called for leaders to “open the door” to negotiations. “May the sound of arms be silenced in war-torn Ukraine,” the 88-year-old pontiff said...

On Feast of St. Stephen, Pope Francis Prays for Persecuted Christians (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis recalled the witness of persecuted Christians around the world on Thursday as he celebrated the feast of St. Stephen, the Church’s first martyr. In his Angelus address on Dec. 26, Pope Francis reflected on Stephen’s last words as he was being stoned to death as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles: “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” Pope Francis said: “Even though at first sight Stephen seems to be helplessly suffering violence, in reality, as a truly free man, he continues to love even his killers and to offer his life for them, like Jesus; he offers his life so that they may repent and, having been forgiven, be given eternal life.” “Today there are, in various parts of the world, many men and women who are persecuted, at times up to death, because of the Gospel,” the pope added. “What we have said about Stephen applies to them too. They do not allow themselves to be killed out of weakness, nor to defend an ideology, but to make everyone participants in the gift of salvation. And they do so first and foremost for the good of their killers … and they pray for them”...

Pope Francis Preaches Peace, Protection of Life in New Year’s Homily (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis began 2025 with a plea for peace and the protection of human life, calling for “a firm commitment to promote respect for the dignity of human life, from conception to natural death” in his New Year’s Day homily... The pontiff connected the themes of peace and human dignity to the celebration of Mary’s divine motherhood, emphasizing how Christ’s incarnation — being “born of woman” — reveals God’s presence in human frailty. “If he, who is the Son of God, became so small as to be held in a mother’s arms, cared for and nursed, this means that today too he comes among us in all those who need similar care,” the pope said...

Pope Francis Appeals for Justice to Humanity in Peril on World Day of Peace (AMECEA)

As the Catholic Church marked the annual celebration of World Day of Peace on Wednesday, January 01, 2025, to encourage the people of God to reflect on the significance of peace to humanity in society, Pope Francis has appealed for justice to reign. In his message for the 58th World Day of Peace themed: ‘Forgive us our trespasses: grant us your peace,’ the Pontiff reflected on “those who feel downtrodden, burdened by their past mistakes, oppressed by the judgment of others and incapable of perceiving even a glimmer of hope for their own lives”... “At the beginning of this year, we desire to heed the plea of suffering humankind in order to feel called, together and as individuals, to break the bonds of injustice and to proclaim God’s justice,” Pope Francis expressed in his message and explained, “Sporadic acts of philanthropy are not enough. Cultural and structural changes are necessary, so that enduring change may come about.” He notes that the goods of the earth are meant not for a privileged few in society, but for everyone and stresses a cultural change to forgive others as we are all “in debt” to God, who forgives our sins and calls upon us to forgive those who trespass against us. “The cultural and structural change needed to surmount this crisis will come about when we finally recognize that we are all sons and daughters of the one Father, that we are all in his debt but also that we need one another, in a spirit of shared and diversified responsibility,” the Pope highlighted adding that “We will be able to “rediscover once and for all that we need one another” and are indebted one to another”...

The full text of MESSAGE OF HIS HOLINESS POPE FRANCIS FOR THE LVIII WORLD DAY OF PEACE 1st JANUARY 2025 Forgive us our trespasses: grant us your peace can be found here

Pope to educators: Amid daily struggles, keep eyes on Christ (Vatican News)

"How can we avoid losing hope and keep nourishing it every day? By keeping our gaze fixed on Jesus, the teacher and companion on our journey," Pope Francis told educators in the Vatican on Saturday...

It is no coincidence that Bobby McEroy has been announced the new Archbishop of Washington one of a line of bad appointments to Washington since the last century. McElroy is a clone of Bergoglio and will make sure Trump will hear the criticism of the Peronist in the Vatican+JMJ+

>263 brone:

Do you think Cardinal McElroy is a bad appointment? Other commentators have noted that McElroy "can be relied on to articulate Catholic teaching on matters such as migration and protection of the most vulnerable in society" (link), both of which are prominent elements of traditional Catholic praxis.

McElroy is a heretic, and his main Stick is socialism as long as someone else pays for it. He is leaving San Diego in financial ruin to DC where if they ain't broke yet they soon will be.+AMDG+

Another comment on Cardinal McElroy's appointment, this one by a US Catholic journalist writing in The Tablet, a British Catholic periodical. The Church is small-c catholic, ie universal!

McElroy, a prelate closely aligned with Pope Francis’ pastoral agenda, served as a bishop for ten years in the Diocese of San Diego, California, on the Mexican border. He has become a forceful advocate for the humane treatment of migrants... He emphasised the importance of synodality in the leadership of the archdiocese, saying this must be “a truly collaborative effort if it is to guide us through the challenges we now face and help us to seize the opportunities for pastoral growth that lie within our midst”. McElroy commended the history of the Church in the District of Columbia and the five counties of Maryland that it covers. “The light of Christ has radiated in the struggles of the civil rights movement, and the Church’s efforts to mitigate the effects of our nation’s original sin,” he said. “It guided the integration of the seeds of grace from the Second Vatican Council into the tapestry of this local church.” He undertook to meet communities throughout the archdiocese and understand their place in it. “The Catholic community in the district and the five counties is truly sacramental in the rich diversity of its traditions and perspectives on key issues in the life of the Church and the world, and I seek to manifest deep respect for that diversity in undertaking my new ministry”... “Sending McElory to Washington is not about trying to tip the scales in a more liberal direction,” said David Gibson, director of Fordham University’s Centre on Religion and Culture. “It’s about promoting solidarity over division, and building what Francis has called ‘a better kind of politics’ rather than indulging in the worst kind of partisanship.” “McElroy has been one of the American church’s most articulate voices for unity rather than culture warring, grace over grievance,” Gibson continued. “He is the rare bishop in the US hierarchy who, on a practical level, possesses both the heart and mind that can give voice to a truly Catholic and ‘catholic’ vision"...

>266 John5918: Balderdash. McElroy's "vision is this. incoherence, absurdity and futility. Bobby is a follower of Hans Kung, and no doubt supports the heretic Richard Rohr. McElroy is a staunch supporter of the Rainbow Reich and a supporter of the institutional coverups of high church perverts. Like Kung he believes a lot of scripture is "trash". These guys know more about human sexuality than Paul who roamed pagan Greece. We can now separate the behavior of perverts and prostitutes from those of the same sex that love each other. Supposedly such a smart guy he says foolishly heretical things. Who in their right mind thinks that the coherence and interdependence of 2000 years of Church teachings is Trash. We must believe in evolution they say because that ole story of Sodom is boring and outdated. We now have the vibrant Rainbow Reich story to dull our consciences. Paul was unemotional about it simply quoting trashed scripture Male with Male and Female with Female was contrary to created nature. Paul is simply warning us of our corrupt imaginations. We reduce, we pervert turning the male into a mock female. Bob has wax in his ears. "Have you not heard" Jesus, Paul, Jude, John all say the same thing. These guys downgrade fornication well as not the worst sin. Nor is Pneumonia as bad as a bullet in the head but it can kill you. Bob, Begoglio, Kung, Tucho and Dick Rohr all wink at sodomy saying there is no logical grounds to condemn it because they trashed Genesis 60 years ago. These guys are not only deaf they are blind in fact they labor not to see the harm the Rainbow Reich has inflicted on us. This blindness is a fake misplaced tenderness of heart. These foggy elites cannot see the permissiveness of their heresies that lays a trap for the fatherless boy. What you ask is at the back of this abrogation of scripture? Could it be that this is nothing but a good ole boy homosexual cult the evidence of the last sixty years is certainly compelling. These guys would do us all a favor and head up to Dick Rohr's retreat camp the "wild man retreat" where men can take of their clothes and touch each other to release their demons. Kumbaya to all of them.+JMJ+

McElroy is an antidote to a US capital and church riven by division (National Catholic Reporter)

We are in a moment of unprecedented division and uncertainty in both the church and society. That's why Pope Francis could not have made a better choice to lead the Archdiocese of Washington, D.C., when he tapped Cardinal Robert McElroy. The church in the District of Columbia and southern Maryland is receiving a worthy successor to Cardinal Wilton Gregory, the first African American to be named both a cardinal in the United States and archbishop of Washington. The church owes an enormous debt of gratitude to Gregory who, in 2002, led a reluctant U.S. hierarchy to its first acknowledgement of the truth of the abuse crisis, and for stepping in to steady an archdiocese shaken by scandal. It could reasonably be said that McElroy, a towering intellectual and a model pastor, has long been in training for his new assignment. He is deeply committed to the fullness of the church's social justice tradition and to the reforms initiated by Vatican II and further accelerated by Pope Francis. As an advocate for immigrants and other scapegoated groups, the soft-spoken cardinal is clear and unequivocal. Much has been said already in secular and religious circles about McElroy's scathing criticism of the first term of Donald Trump and what it might signify for the future. It doesn't take a Ph.D. in politics or theology — and McElroy has earned one in each — to worry about a civic and moral danger ahead. Trump is set to be the only man to occupy the Oval Office as a convicted felon, and the only one to incite an insurrection to interfere with the certification of an election that he lost. In these unprecedented times, the church and the culture will be served well by an authoritative Catholic leader in Washington, and one who speaks knowledgably and passionately about the church's social teaching...

Mass deportations ‘incompatible with Catholic doctrine,’ Cardinal McElroy says in DC debut (Catholic News Agency)

Cardinal Robert McElroy, the new archbishop of Washington, D.C., says he wishes success for President-elect Donald Trump’s incoming administration but that he’ll be watching closely to see how Trump deals with immigrants who are in the country without legal status. “The Catholic Church teaches that a country has the right to control its borders. And our nation’s desire to do that is a legitimate effort,” McElroy said... “At the same time, we are called always to have a sense of the dignity of every human person. And thus, plans which have been talked about at some levels of having a wider indiscriminate massive deportation across the country would be something that would be incompatible with Catholic doctrine. So we’ll have to see what emerges in the administration”...

As long as cardinal bobby knows that Bergoglio is not the boss here everything will be fine, He will be able to hold his DEI banquets in peace. Trump will cling to the law no matter what our leftist bishops say, "render to ceasar". However, Rainbow Reich bishops like bob and Bergoglio do not accept our boring, secular, laws like you can't hop the fence and come here and murder, rape, our citizens and get away with it. Our real government is at least tolerable by not randomly seizing people of the streets, the law however vindicates the rights of Americans not law breakers. The socialists we just booted out of power as well as the "social justice" bishops Bergoglio has installed condone millions of people who break our laws they believe theft is a good thing stealing hard working taxpayer's dollars while they live in luxury in palaces with chauffeurs and servants. Most of these guys never had a shovel in their hands their whole lives, sneakily they support involuntary taxes a slinking evil that impounds other people's money to arbitrarily transfer from one group to another just look at the financial scandals these boobs have caused in the last sixty years not to mention the sexual scandals Clean your own house before you pontificate on the problems of America.+AMDG+

There really is a great deal of vitriol in some of your posts. Sad.

>270 John5918: My friend I'm sorry I broke your glass jaw as the word vitriol means glass. McElroy is a wolf set upon an innocent flock who have been burdened with corrupt bishops for over twenty years, McElroy's mentor McCarrick uncle ted himself McElroy covered up his crimes as did the master of coverups in the Vatican did. While some of us are sad that these guys are called out for corruption, to bad I'm not on the fake catholic traditional post where you can censor my "Vitriolic" truths+AMDG+

>271 brone:

Well, that's your viewpoint. Mine is that one can call out corruption calmly, objectively and charitably, citing references to substantive evidence, which ultimately is more effective and less divisive than innuendo, hyperbole and vitriol.

Maybe it's a cultural thing. A few decades ago when I was doing a lot of international advocacy for peace in Sudan, I remember commenting to a South African colleague who was living in exile in north America that a particular US commentator was so over the top in his advocacy for Sudan that he risked not being taken seriously. My South African colleague smiled and said, "That's because you're a European and you're used to more restrained, rational and objective debate. In the USA this sort of wild hyperbolic ranting is the accepted norm!"

On the subject of Cardinal McElroy's handling of sexual abuse allegations, a little reading of both right wing and mainstream material which are in the public domain suggests that it is rather more complex than right wing Catholic sound bites would have us believe. I think this one gives a more balanced view, as does the Wikipedia page.

Left wing Catholic popes and soundbites have been covering up abuse for years. McElroy is appointed to Washington as an anecdote to the Trump administration. Just Bergoglio "making a mess". The priests in Washington, Virginia, Maryland a Traditional Catholic stronghold will not welcome McElroys Rainbow Reich's ideology. When he trys to implement his heretical erasing of the orientation to condone the active he will meet a stone wall. Giving the active Communion will cause the mess his Boss wants. The boobery in the synodal church knows no bounds. The coverup of sex abuse priests in San Diego and the coverup of Uncle Ted's horrendous crimes will be highlighted everytime he opens his mouth in that city. His famous quote about Ted as well as all his progressive friends was "Everybody Knew" and that small phrase will get you promoted by the mess maker in charge.+AMDG+

The Vatican this week enacted stricter penalties for unauthorized entry to the Vatican. I understand that there is only one gate open to the Sovereign City State at night and that is guarded by armed Swiss guards. Which I am for by the way. By upgrading the security of the Vatican as a unique walled State Bergoglio is highlighting the need for order and safety. On Aug. 30th he held a moment of silence for migrants and criminals who face walls and gates in other Sovreign countries calling it a "grave sin".+JMJ+

Pope Francis Invokes Blessings on U.S. as Trump Begins Presidency (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis sent a message to Donald Trump on the occasion of his inauguration as the 47th president of the United States on Monday, offering prayers for “wisdom, strength, and protection” in the exercise of his duties and invoking blessings upon the “beloved American people.” In the message, released by the Holy See Press Office on Jan. 20, the pontiff expressed hope that under Trump’s leadership, the American people would “prosper and always strive to build a more just society.” “Inspired by your nation’s ideals of being a land of opportunity and welcome for all, it is my hope that under your leadership the American people will prosper and always strive to build a more just society, where there is no room for hatred, discrimination, or exclusion,” Francis wrote. The pope acknowledged the “numerous challenges” facing the human family, including “the scourge of war,” and asked God to guide Trump’s efforts in “promoting peace and reconciliation among peoples.” The message concluded with the Holy Father invoking “an abundance of divine blessings” upon Trump, his family, and “the beloved American people”...

>275 brone:

As usual, you don't cite a source, but if it's this one, it's worth noting that it is not about migrants, but about those who try to enter "areas where free access is not allowed... The Vatican City State includes areas with free access, such as St. Peter’s Basilica or the Vatican Museums, which require prior security checks. However, there are other entrances flanked by high walls, such as Porta Santa Ana, Piazza del Sant’Uffizio, or Porta Perugino, reserved for authorized personnel or visitors with special permits." As far as I am aware, like much of Europe within the Schengen zone, there are no border controls and nobody has to show a passport or other form of ID to enter the publicly accessible spaces. So it's not about "migrants and criminals who face walls and gates in other Sovereign countries"; in the USA it would be more akin to saying that access to private areas such as the White House is restricted.

Church stands against Trump’s ‘disturbing’ deportation plans on inauguration day (The Tablet)

In the days before Donald Trump’s presidential inauguration, US Catholic leaders reaffirmed their commitment to defend migrants even as the administration threatened mass deportations... “While we wish the new administration success in promoting the common good, the reports being circulated of planned mass deportations targeting the Chicago area are not only profoundly disturbing but also wound us deeply,” said Cardinal Blase Cupich of Chicago... Cupich said he would oppose efforts to enter places of worship to arrest migrants. “People of faith are called to speak for the rights of others and to remind society of its obligation to care for those in need,” he said. “If the indiscriminate mass deportation being reported were to be carried out, this would be an affront to the dignity of all people and communities, and deny the legacy of what it means to be an American.” Cardinal Joseph Tobin of Newark and Bishop Mark Seitz of El Paso spoke at a gathering of interfaith leaders with immigrant families in Newark on 15 January. “We’re deeply concerned about the potential impact of mass deportation on children and families,” Tobin said. “Within the Catholic tradition and other faith expressions represented here today, we’re able to see the humanity in everyone.” Pope Francis called the planned deportations a “disgrace” in a television interview broadcast on the eve of the inauguration. “If it is true, it will be a disgrace, because it makes the poor wretches who have nothing pay the bill for the inequalities,” he said...

Migrants are not a Threat in their Host Countries: Spanish Catholic Bishop at Lecture in Cape Verde (ACI Africa)

Bishop Fernando García Cadiñanos of the Catholic Diocese of Mondoñedo-Ferrol in Spain has emphasized the enriching contributions of immigrants to host societies, urging a shift from fear-based narratives that migrants tend to water down the identity of their host countries... Bishop Cadiñanos reflected on the complexities of migration, and addressed the rise of xenophobic and populist rhetoric in many Western nations. “Today, there is a growing nationalist discourse that portrays immigrants as threats to identity, security, and economic welfare,” he said, and added, “This ideology promotes the idea that resources should be reserved exclusively for natives, reviving slogans like ‘America for Americans.’” In his address, Bishop Cadiñanos linked nationalistic sentiment to policies emphasizing border control and restrictive migration laws. “This debate generates social conflict, fostering feelings of xenophobia and racism tied to aporophobia—hatred of the poor,” the Bishop said. According to the Catholic Church leader, migration itself is not inherently problematic. “The real issues lie in the causes of migration—poverty, injustice, and violence—in the perilous journeys migrants undertake, and in unjust laws that exploit human dignity,” he said. Bishop Cadiñanos said, “Migration, while complex, is as old as humanity itself. Our approach to it will shape the future of our world.” He urged a compassionate and just response, aligned with the teachings of Pope Francis, who views migration as a defining issue for the future of humanity. The Bishop reflected on the impact of migration on society, highlighting its positives especially to the host country. “Immigrant populations enrich our host societies economically, which is the most visible aspect and often the one most valued, particularly in highly market-driven societies,” the Spanish Catholic Bishop said on January 17. He added, “Immigrants, through their diversity, help us understand ourselves better, revealing deficiencies that our societies may have lost sight of over time.” Bishop Cadiñanos lauded migrants for bringing perseverance, sacrifice, joy, a strong work ethic, and family values, calling these contributions vital for the social and spiritual growth of host communities...

>278 John5918:

If for no other reason, mass deportation of immigrants--legal or no--would be a debilitating blow to Catholic churches in the United States.

In my small town in eastern Washington State, the vast majority of the people attending services and masses in the two Catholic churches are of Hispanic descent.

Trump criticizes ‘nasty’ bishop who made pro-immigrant and LGBTQ+ plea (Guardian)

After a bishop at the National Cathedral prayer service for the inauguration on Tuesday implored Donald Trump to “have mercy upon” immigrants and LGBTQ+ people, many have spoken out about the remarks – including Trump himself. In a lengthy social media post early on Wednesday, Trump called the Right Rev Mariann Edgar Budde a “Radical Left hard line Trump hater” adding that “she brought her church into the World of politics in a very ungracious way” and criticized her tone as “nasty”. Later on in the statement, Trump described the service as “boring” and “uninspiring” and said that Budde and her church “owe the public an apology!”...

>280 John5918: "Nasty' is his code word for 'strong woman who makes me nervous because I am weak'.

Apparently he thinks that the only real churches are the ones which proclaim him to be the second Messiah, because that's not political at all. He's not exactly the type to reflect upon the message and show humility.

Many of us found the service to be quite compelling.

Pope: 'Nothing is worth more than the life of a child' (Vatican News)

“Nothing is worth more than the life of a child.” Addressing world leaders convened in the Vatican for the first global Summit on Children’s Rights on Monday, Pope Francis reiterated his impassioned plea for the protection of children who are victims of conflict, poverty, migration and of a “throwaway culture”, including abortion and neglect, insisting on the urgent need to listen to them...

The tale of the "devout catholic" president who joined the free masons the day after he left office compared to the "nasty" president who immedietly pardoned 23 pro-lifers jailed for exercising their first amendment rights. While signing the pardon document in the light of day "nasty", said Many of these pro-lifers are elderly and some of them were rounded up by SWAT teams and thrown in jail we are going to take care of this immediately. Let's call theses brave Americans what they really are they are persecuted Christians. On Jan 24th President Trump freed 23 prisoners. While signing the order Trump is quoted as saying, "this is a great honor for me". Meanwhile today is a National Day of Prayer. Trump however was not berated by a rainbow reich "bishop" but he himself thanked God for saving his life in July and said America must bring religion back for us to survive as a nation.+JMJ+

The Pope, American bishops, and my favorite Marxists here are all in a dither about the US enforcing its immigration laws. Seems elitist catholics along with their socialist friends want to facilitate illigal immigration as "acts of mercy". On the other hand, these bishops and socialists all must hear about the crimes the policy of open borders has caused. Are youse guys aware of the various forms of degradation this policy has caused in the United States or like in England have you turned a willfull blind eye towards crimes of Murder, gang violence, sex trafficking, human trafficing, theft, terrorism, organized crime, torture, rape, drug smuggling, assault, kidnapping and fraud. Statistics that youse guys use are sterile links. Each victim of this criminal policy has a story and the loved ones of the countless heinous crimes committed by illegals are not statistics. Crimes against children are unspeakable over 300,000 children are lost in this cauldron of corruption. Does the Catholic Church need annother scandal by stepping up its entanglement in the NGO church scam. Illegal immigration is now a big business. The Church has accepted billions in what could reasonably be called blood money. This not counting all the local and state grants given to catholic NGOs. Of course, there is no accountability for this dough accept homage to Caesar, the church is recieving so much money they are layering and obfuscating the trail in the hood thats called money laundering. The different heads of these NGOs recieve six figure salaries. Meanwhile they don't even vett these illegals, check health or shot records just dump these poor people in small town America. An estimated 700,000 criminals have entered into the US and are at large. The largest to enter the US outside of Latinos are Chinese men of military age gee I wonder how they got to Mexico the poor refugees it must have been a grueling raft trip for them. How many criminals, terrorists, and CCP spies has Catholic Charities aided and abetted in the last four years. The acts of mercy foisted upon us by Bergoglian clones are mixing up the licit with the illicit tainting the whole deal. The correlation of the billions these boobs have had to shell out because they could'nt keep their hands in their own pockets and now they are recieving billions from American taxpayers let's look in the mirror your excellencies when you condemn Trump on immigration are you seeing a pecuniary interest in that mirror could it be that is your bottom line to help you out of the bankrupcy you caused, So Mac, cupcake, Tobin, Dolan, common sense from the pew we aint given you any more dough and get out of the money laundering business and your involment in illegal activities of the illegal immigration complex before Trump does it for you.+AMDG+

>284 brone: there is no accountability for this dough

That is a blatant falsehood. The accountability regulations associated with funding from governments (including the USA) and multilateral institutions (including the UN and EU) is onerous, and arguably draws human and financial resources away from the real work of implementing aid and development programmes. Many needy organisations simply can't access government funds because they do not have the administrative capacity to meet the accountability and reporting requirements, and feel that bringing that sort of capacity on board would divert funds into bureaucracy and skew the ethos of the organisation. These smaller organisations tend to prioritise accountability to their beneficiaries rather than their donors. I've been associated with the international humanitarian aid and development community for the best part of forty years, including USAID funding, and I speak from hard won experience.

For someone so smart how gullible you have been for forty years+AMDG+

>286 brone:

So give us some credible information which proves me to be gullible.

People "terrorized" by U.S. Crackdown on Illegal Immigration: Vatican Official (ACI Africa)

A prominent Vatican cardinal said on Monday that people are being “terrorized” by the U.S. government’s “crackdown” on immigration and freeze of Catholic-run aid programs. Cardinal Michael Czerny, prefect of the Vatican’s Dicastery for Promoting Integral Human Development, told the Associated Press in an interview published Feb. 10 that U.S. measures affecting both migration policy and international aid programs are causing serious harm to vulnerable populations. “A crackdown is a terrible way to administer affairs and much less to administer justice,” the Czech-born Canadian Jesuit said. “I’m very sorry that many people are being hurt and indeed terrorized by the measures.” The cardinal’s comments coincided with a sharp rebuke from Caritas Internationalis, which on Monday strongly condemned what it called “the reckless decision by the U.S. administration to abruptly close USAID funded programs and offices worldwide.” Caritas warned: “Stopping USAID will jeopardize essential services for hundreds of millions of people, undermine decades of progress in humanitarian and development assistance, destabilize regions that rely on this critical support, and condemn millions to dehumanizing poverty or even death”... The Vatican official emphasized Pope Francis’ teaching that caring for migrants and vulnerable people is a fundamental Christian duty. “What the Church teaches is very well summed up by Pope Francis, who says that our obligation, not only as Christians but as human beings, is to welcome people, to protect them, to promote them, and to integrate them,” Czerny said. The Jesuit cardinal is the latest of several prelates to weigh in on U.S. immigration policy changes, which numerous Catholic leaders, including Pope Francis, have criticized as unjust. On Feb. 7, Archbishop Joseph F. Naumann of Kansas City, Kansas, noted that “the Church does not have the authority or the responsibility to determine the legal status of those living in the United States” but does have “an obligation to care for every person with respect and love, no matter their citizenship status”...

>287 John5918: he can't, and he won't try.

What every American should know about US foreign aid (Brookings Institute)

Seventy-five years of U.S. foreign assistance has produced more fiction than fact when it comes to how American tax dollars are being spent around the world. In the interest of providing taxpayers with information about the value of their federal investment in this regard, it might be helpful to look at some of the top myths surrounding foreign aid, and how these myths compare with reality...

Youse guys of the far left and your hero Jorge have no sense of compassion for the American citizen. USCCBoomers under the guidance of the most political pope in modern history disdain the average American. We have throughout our history stepped up to help the downtrodden. Jorge has on numerous occasions berated us as rigid, backward and unstable. Now he wants us to care more for people who have invaded our country illegally. The USCCBoomers will accept 100milion (a drop in the bucket) of American taxpayers' money to resettle them in hotels accross the country while our own citizens are homeless because floods and fires. I don't see any catholic relief service whiz kids or pectoral crosses up in the hills of NC helping American citizens in need. Jorge and his gang of USCCBoomer clones want us to care for the poor immigrant more than our own kin. Where is their notion of Catholic charity. St Augustine deftly says, "in matters pertaining to nature we should love our own citizens first". The USCCBoomers should read Austine instead of James Martin, look how worried they are from their opulent mansions not over paying for the crimes of the last century yet. Meanwhile Jorge should stay out of our affairs as he himself needs to beef up security to prevent people from jumping up on the high altar at Sy Peters and doing a jig. As happened the other day. USSCBoomers and Vatican politicos should clean up their own corrupt house first.+JMJ+

>291 brone:

Once again you make a lot of allegations without presenting links to any actual evidence that what you are saying is true.

I don't see any catholic relief service whiz kids or pectoral crosses up in the hills of NC helping American citizens in need

This is perhaps the one part of your post which has an element of truth in it. You're right, you won't see anyone from Catholic Relief Services, for the simple reason that the US Catholic Church has two major relief agencies with different mandates. CRS is solely for overseas aid, while a sister agency called Catholic Charities addresses domestic aid. On CC's website you can see links to pages with titles like "Catholic Charities launches relief fund for survivors of Los Angeles wildfires", "Catholic Charities receive coats that turn into sleeping bags for homeless veterans", "Catholic Charities rolls out ultrasound van", "Catholic Charities marks 100 years serving Oklahoma communities", and "Two Catholic Charities NH health care communities named among nation’s best for short-term rehabilitation". I haven't unearthed recent figures for CC's finances, but I think it has hovered around USD 4.5 billion a year, with about half of that coming from the US government. In addition to this major domestic charity, there are other Catholic agencies such as the Knights of Columbus (who raise much of their charitable funds by running an insurance business) and the Society of St Vincent de Paul, as well as parish justice and peace committees and local social care initiatives. The US Catholic Church does a huge amount to help those in need within the USA and it is really rather unhelpful to suggest otherwise. As for "pectoral crosses", I suspect that local bishops and priests supporting victims of disasters in their local areas is such a commonplace occurrence that it barely gets a mention in the media, but just a quick googling brings up mention of bishops praying for and supporting victims of the recent aircraft collision, of storms, and of wildfires. Your statement that "We have throughout our history stepped up to help the downtrodden" is also true of the whole Catholic Church, not withstanding the fact that there have been periods and places where "we" have failed to do so.

the most political pope in modern history

I wonder if that is really true? Leo XIII stepped into the political battle between Marxism and capitalism with his groundbreaking encyclical Rerum Novarum, Benedict XV did what he could to end World War I, Pius XII had to negotiate a difficult path through World War II and was both praised and criticised for the choices he made, John XXIII faced the Cold War and nuclear war with his groundbreaking encyclical Pacem in Terris*. It might be tempting to equate great events in our own time with "the most in modern history", but in a few decades historians might come up with a different evaluation.

Jorge and his gang of USCCBoomer clones want us to care for the poor immigrant more than our own kin

Presuming that by those pejoratives you are referring to Pope Francis and the US Catholic bishops, that's simply not true. Love of neighbour knows no bounds, and as I have pointed out above, the US Catholic Church is continuing to serve all the poor and needy in the USA. The idea that funds are diverted from this has been demonstrated as false numerous times. I can't be bothered to go back through all the posts in repetitive threads in this group, but various links have been posted showing that, for example, money has not been diverted from FEMA for other purposes than domestic disaster relief. A lot of US government money is spent according to the will of Congress (at least it was - I'm not sure what it is like under the new administration) and cannot legally be diverted. As for St Augustine, someone has posted in another thread on this group a comprehensive debunking of JD Vance's interpretation of Augustine's words by theologians and the teaching authorities of the Church rather than a Catholic layman who happens to be vice president (link).

to beef up security to prevent people from jumping up on the high altar at St Peters and doing a jig

Not sure what this has to do with the matter under discussion, but I doubt whether there is any cathedral in the world where the head of a Church micro-manages, nor any state where the head of state micro-manages, the security of a building. We'd probably be criticising them if they did so for failure to delegate and failure to use their time productively. The mentally disturbed individual in question was safely apprehended within a couple of minutes by security officials and handed over to Italian police. St Peter's is open to the public, as it should be. You have to pass through a security screening, but once inside the huge space amongst thousands of other individuals, it is almost impossible to stop someone misbehaving, but only to detain them quickly once they begin to act up, as actually happened.

Also not sure what Fr James Martin has to do with the matter in question. And finally, you constantly link Pope Francis to "boomers", and as I have pointed out before, he (born in 1936) is not a "boomer", not having been born between 1946 and 1964.

* Edited to add John Paul II, who was deeply involved in the politics of trade unions in Poland and the eventual dissolution of the USSR.

>292 John5918: Ominously (and especially uncomfortable for brone to read/hear), FEMA is one of the US agencies which Musk deems to be rife with fraud and waste, so don't expect FEMA to be showing up anywhere there's disasters if President Musk has his way. Catholic Charities will also be losing funding if the 'auditors' have their way, so brone better be prepared to roll up his sleeves to physically help those in disaster-hit areas, and also be prepared to contribute more--much more--to help those in need in the same disaster areas. The 'waste and fraud' cutters view helping victims of disasters to be a responsibility for the state/s in which the disasters occur, not a Federal responsibility.

Many American Catholics are scandalized (once again) by the revelation of the large salaries in "catholic" charities. Some are making 6 figures with entry level at 60,000 anrd has over 5,000 employees. Now the overwhelming support youse guys are suddenly showing for CRS is puzzling as I would think that 100m in Caesar's coins to these guys would rouse your "christian nationalist" concerns. You all approve of this boondoggle but scream the loudest when someone questions this Taxpayer ripoff. We are not surprised with the CRS's fake socialist and wasteful spending of other peoples's money. The church has taken so much of Caesar's coin. To us it is just your version of leftist christian nationalism. There is no spiriual sphere in this imprudent operation as even Bergoglio has his fingers in this pie. Not only are official "catholic" charities acting imprudently but they are wrong as well. As far as the recent history of the Catholic Church is concerned it's track record does not support your leftist christian nationalist exhuberance. The new scandal of Mamon's grants has corrupted a once legitimate and donation-based charity of the church. I hope it is not as bad as it seems and even if leftists who now run these former charities are exposed as we investigate futher. It will not shake our faith in Christ or His Church. Wolves and corrupt bureaucrats are now running the Church, and the Boomer Regime will be soon over. Napoleon once told a holy cardinal that he will "destroy the Church", to which the Cardinal replied, "if in 1800 years we clergy have failed to destroy the church do you think you'll be able to do it?"+JMJ+

>294 brone:

Once again you present a lot of random allegations and innuendo without reference to any actual evidence. But it seems you are now changing the focus of your ire from US domestic aid to international aid, namely CRS (Catholic Relief Services).

CRS has, at least since the mid-1990s after the Rwanda genocide, explicitly based its work not on leftism, socialism, Napoleon, nationalism, Caesar or any of your other red herrings, but on Catholic Social Doctrine, which is very much in the "spiritual sphere". CRS publishes its audited reports openly and transparently - the 2023 one is here. Its annual budget varies depending on funding for emergencies, but I think it's usually up around one to one and a half billion USD or so. 95% is spent on programmes, 3% on administration and 2% on fundraising, which puts it up amongst the best NGOs globally.

I don't know where you get your figures for staff salaries and I can't verify them, but no doubt you can give us a link to it. Of CRS' 5,000 employees throughout the world I doubt whether very many are getting six figures. But a labourer is worthy of their hire (Luke 10:7, 1 Timothy 5:18, Matthew 10:10) and unfortunately even the humanitarian community has to work within the constraints of the global capitalist free market system where attracting and retaining highly competent top people may require high wages, particularly when they often have to uproot their families to live overseas, or leave their families at home while they go to dangerous hardship posts. Presumably you wouldn't want an under-qualified person to be managing millions of dollars or, more importantly, to be responsible for programmes which mean life or death to the beneficiaries? But in this day and age, compared to the salaries of CEOs and managing directors of capitalist businesses with a similar billion dollar turnover, I suspect that a hundred grand is pretty small fry. But I've never seen such sums in my own humble service.

Not only are official "catholic" charities acting imprudently but they are wrong as well.

I think it's very irresponsible to make such claims without presenting any evidence. All organisations have both strengths and weaknesses, the latter of which may legitimately be critiqued and corrected, but in my forty years of working alongside, collaborating with, and at times being asked to advise, assess, evaluate and make recommendations to Catholic (and other Christian) agencies, I would say that many of them are up there amongst the leaders in the field. That would certainly include CRS (USA), CAFOD (England and Wales) and Trócaire (Ireland), and indeed most members of the Caritas Internationalis network.

“It’s urgent that other governments step in”: Church Development Agencies Urge Support for Sudan amid U.S. Funding Cuts (ACI Africa)

The people of God in Sudan need the support of other governments to fill the gap following the abrupt U.S. funding cuts, Church development agencies including Caritas Internationalis (CI) have appealed. In a statement dated Monday, February 17, CI, ACT Alliance, the Norwegian Church Aid, and the Catholic Agency for Overseas Development (CAFOD) weigh in on the effect of the Donald Trump-led government’s decision to suspend funds including subsidies through the U.S Agency for International Development (USAID) and the U.S. President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief (PEPFAR)... in Sudan, the humanitarian crisis continues to escalate, inflicting immense suffering on millions of civilians... “Millions of people in Sudan are facing famine, extreme hunger, and suffering. Throughout this crisis, local civil society organizations have been the first responders, and we must ensure they have the resources to continue their lifesaving work.” “Every day, community networks, faith groups, and women’s organizations risk their lives to support people trying to survive and seek safety in this brutal war”...

Catholic Bishops in Africa Pen Letter to Pope Francis, Praying for His “swift, complete recovery” (ACI Africa)

Catholic Bishops in Africa have expressed their solidarity and spiritual closeness with Pope Francis as he undergoes medical care at a hospital in Rome. In a message sent on behalf of the Church in Africa and the continent’s Islands, members of the Symposium of Episcopal Conferences of Africa and Madagascar (SECAM) assured the Holy Father of their prayers for his full recovery. “The Church in Africa and the Islands has closely followed, with profound attention and fervent prayer, the days of your Holiness’ hospitalization at the Agostino Gemelli University Policlinic in Rome,” SECAM members say in their Wednesday, February 19 message shared with ACI Africa. They add, “Through this message, we wish to reaffirm the solidarity and spiritual closeness of all the members of the Symposium of Episcopal Conferences in Africa and Madagascar (SECAM) and the entire Church across the continent and its Islands.” “We earnestly pray for Your Holiness’ swift and complete recovery”...

Pope Francis is loved and respected across the African continent, and there is no sign of the disrespect and disparagement that one finds amongst some Catholics in north America.

Another thoughtful reflection on Pope Francis by a cardinal in Africa, which I quote at some length:

“A most remarkable leader”: Cardinal in South Africa Applauds Pope Francis, Calls for Prayers for His Recovery (ACI Africa)

Stephen Cardinal Brislin of the Catholic Archdiocese of Johannesburg in South Africa has called on the people of God to pray for Pope Francis’ recovery, pointing out the Holy Father’s moral and spiritual guidance in a troubled world. Speaking during a Special Mass to pray for Pope Francis... Cardinal Brislin reflected on the Holy Father’s leadership, his commitment to compassion, and his lasting impact on the Church and the world. “We come to pray for him (Pope Francis) because he is our leader, our shepherd. Yet he does not only belong to us, he belongs to the world,” the South African Cardinal said in his homily during the March 2 celebration. He added, “People of different Christian denominations, people of other faiths, and people of no faith at all, recognize in Pope Francis a most remarkable and strong leader, a leader with vision at a time in the world when there is a vacuum of visionary and inspiring leaders.” “Pope Francis has inspired and encouraged thousands, if not millions, of people through his teaching and his words. The Pope, as we know, is the leader of the Catholic Church. We believe and know that he is chosen through the Holy Spirit to be our chief shepherd on earth, and that his role is to represent Christ himself, to teach, to interpret the scriptures according to the signs of the times,” the Catholic Church leader said during the celebration that was held at Christ the King Cathedral of his Metropolitan See. He continued, “The Pope, a name that has its origins in the Latin word meaning bridge, is meant to be exactly that, a bridge that unites people, reconciles them, who is able to traverse differences in order to find common ground for the sake of humanity. In a real sense, the world is entrusted to his care, and not only the Catholic Church.” Cardinal Brislin urged the people of God to reflect on the Pope’s core teachings, particularly his emphasis on compassion, mercy, and justice. “His primary message is one of compassion, the compassion of God towards humankind, and the need for compassion to be our guiding principle. He has never dismissed the need for laws and regulations, for doctrine, and for teaching. He has added to the laws of the Church, called canon law,” Cardinal Brislin said... The Holy Father, Cardinal Brislin observed, “has spoken out against legalism that does not see the true purpose of the law, and that excludes mercy and compassion”... “Pope Francis has given to the world perhaps one of the greatest challenges of our times, our attitude and behavior towards marginalized people, those on the periphery. Particularly, he has taken up the cause of migrants and refugees, those who flee their countries because of war, conflict, persecution, or economic or climatic hardships. He has counteracted and opposed narrow nationalism that is prevalent in the world and seems to be growing.” The Holy Father, the South Africa Cardinal said, “has conscientized leaders around the world not only in terms of migrants but also in terms of such issues as the scourge of human trafficking, of economic systems that keep people subservient and in poverty, and subservient to the system itself rather than seeing the economic system as being of service to people.” Cardinal Brislin also reflected on Pope Francis’ pastoral approach, emphasizing the Pope’s insistence that Priests be close to their people... Cardinal Brislin said that beyond social justice, Pope Francis has called attention to the care of creation, linking environmental degradation with economic injustice. “He has challenged the domination and greed of some nations at the expense of poor nations,” the Cardinal said, noting that the Pope has “tirelessly worked to ensure the Church remains at the service of humanity rather than the other way around.” Cardinal Brislin noted that despite criticisms, Pope Francis has remained steadfast in his mission, promoting the Gospel’s message of mercy while holding firm to the Church’s teachings. “Many have feared that what he has said means that he wishes to alter or tinker with the doctrine of the Church. But that is not the case. What he wants is compassion for people in whatever circumstances they find themselves in,” he explained. Cardinal Brislin noted that Pope Francis’ teachings are not new but are a continuation of the Church’s long tradition, made distinct by his personal witness and deep compassion. “Throughout his papacy, Pope Francis, and even from his sickbed, has striven for peace, to reconcile warring nations and people. And he has done so without mincing his words when injustice is evident. He has rightly condemned the injustices of the world and all that diminishes the inherent dignity of the human person,” he said...

What is taken so long with the investigation of the pet papal predator Markie Rupnic's case? He has long managed to avoid punishment for the canonical offense of giving absolution to an accomplice in a sin against the sixth commandment. One of many transgressions he was actually excommunicated, thrown out of the Jesuit order and miraculously exonerated by "someone high up" and made a free agent regaining his faculties in Slovenia. Markie however lives in luxury on a mountian top far enough away from Rome but close enough to run his business empire. Another papal pet Tucho's dicastery is in charge of investigating Markie. Another "McCarrick effect" is in the making here which is keep investigating till they are all dead. Markie once talked a nun into a sexual tryst as a mystical experience the Vaticanistas reply to this was not to worry that was just "false mysticism" not enough to punish. To many clerics are now taking refuse behind "detraction" and "good name" to justify negligence and coverups of priestly predators especially homosexual ones. Rome blows hot and cold one week it's transparency the next it's detraction and good name. In the US that's called the McCarrick effect. No wonder people go public they could not get a timely and fair judgement in a church rectory. The Rupnic affair only nutures the deep-seated belief that the only party with rights are the accused clergy. Since the church won't clean-up it's mess it is starving financially as is evident in the recent revelations that Catholic Charities in the US are subsided with tens of millions of taxpayers dollors. This scam was stopped, and the salutary effect will be the church will have to revert back to essentials. Our Church shouldn't have to become a poor church of the poor because of abusive priests and American taxpayers.+AMDG+

>299 brone: Catholic Charities in the US are subsided with tens of millions of taxpayers dollors. This scam was stopped

Catholic Charities is not a scam. Virtually every NGO in the world applies for government grants as well as raising funds privately. Governments make money available for aid, and NGOs can apply for some of it. This is a normal procedure. Catholic Charities works only within the USA, so this is also a way for the government indirectly to give assistance to US citizens in need, given that the USA does not have a social safety net system as we have in most of Europe.

Pope's appeal for debt relief gains momentum (Vatican News)

In more than 160 countries, Pope Francis' call for debt relief is becoming manifest, says Eric LeCompte, the Executive Director of Jubilee USA Network, a development coalition of more than 750 religious groups and organizations around the world, in an interview with Vatican News. The coalition, which includes Pope Saint John Paul II among its founders, frequently advises the Catholic Church and Bishops' Conferences around the world on implementing the Church's vision for the Church on Jubilee, a vision of debt relief, debt cancellation, and building an economy that provides for everyone. For more than 25 years, LeCompte has led religious groups to win policies that alleviate poverty, address global conflict, and promote human rights. He has also addressed the United Nations General Assembly on needed economic and climate policies to achieve the Sustainable Development Goals...

It's easy for the Vatican to say debt should be cancelled in the "global south" when their own house is a financial disaster.+JMJ+

>302 brone:

That's really rather irrelevant to the substantive issue of global debt relief and cancellation, which stands on its own merits regardless of who is calling for it and what the financial record of their own organisation is. And it stands in good company - the concept of jubilee debt relief and cancellation goes back as far as the Old Testament, was reinforced by Jesus (Luke 4:19) and, as the article mentioned in >301 John5918: says, includes Pope Saint John Paul II amongst its proponents.

Reminds me of the devout Catholic Joe Biden cancelling student loans that carpenters and plumbers (taxpayers would have to pay)+JMJ+

In 12 Years, Pope Francis Has “guided the Church's boat with wisdom, dedication”: Ivory Coast’s Catholic Bishops (ACI Africa)

As Pope Francis marks 12 years since his election as the 265th successor of St. Peter, Catholic Bishops in Ivory Coast have expressed gratitude to God for his leadership... members of the Episcopal Conference of Ivory Coast (CECCI) highlight “wisdom and dedication” as virtues that have marked Pope Francis’ pontificate... the leadership of the Catholic Diocese of Kokstad in South Africa... “Our Diocese wants to thank him for his spiritual concern over people's lives, especially the poor, children, elderly, youth, and women, to name a few”...

>304 brone:

I wasn't aware of that and I had to look it up (link). Thanks for mentioning it. Congratulations to your former president for removing this burden on hundreds of thousands of young US citizens who can now better contribute to the growth of your great nation as taxpayers.

Like all socialists you praise when debts accrued are paid with other people's money+JMJ+

Isn't the basis of Christianity the idea that Jesus came to pay for our sins?

More like redeem us for our sins+AMDG+

Same thing, dude.

>307 brone:

I think it's worth remembering that this is a Christian conversation, not a secular political one, and thus is not about socialism nor "other people's money", it is about the year of jubilee, which according to ancient Jewish and Christian tradition is a time for the forgiveness of debts.

Stop trying to bully me with righteousness!

>312 brone:

Speaking about righteousness in a Christian group is not bullying, although it is often challenging.

So, as a Catholic you would restrict my expressing my political views somehow, I think if I agreed with your view things would be all fuzzy and warm with us. However, if you could get over your censorsorial mindset and understand that not all Catholics in good standings agree with you or the pope when it comes to secular politics. Would you condemn me for not agreeing with Dorothy Day but agreeing with Flanery O'Connor both political Catholics. You have a conniption when I call the pope a globalist and you as well. America is not a Catholic country, yet the Catholic Church has had a profound impact on the country's social justice and civil rights political movements up until recent decades has been positive. Lately because of the political positions of "devout catholics" in politics and their support for Abortion, Euthanasia, gay marriage, IVF, gender mutilation of minors, and all thing LBGQBTP++ conservative Catholics speak out and are vilified as being "politically secular" in a "Christian conversation". "My Hero" as you called him (Benedict called him Venerable) was criticized as I am for calling out Socialists and was put on an FBI watchlist for criticizing Stalin during the war Fulton Sheen was constantly calling out America to warn us against Socialism. Your 311 post is all about you and what you are thinking your DeFacto hint of censorship is duly noted after all you did it before using the false "Ad Hominem" claim you dust off here and there. As a pew Catholic I somehow have managed without the help off a progressive education to understand Catholicism's historical and contemporary inpact on political movements and provide (perhaps) some valuable insights in a dialogue between faith and politics especially in this Christian conversation. I thank the monitor here for his wisdom in allowing free speech as I am not allowed to speak on the so-called Catholic Tradition site+AMDG+

>314 brone:

Nobody is stopping you from expressing your views. Are you trying to stop me from speaking about Christian righteousness in a Christian group? But for Christians, I would suggest that forgiveness of debt is not about politics, it is about the year of jubilee.

Catholic Relief Services calls for ‘prompt payments’ after termination of USAID programs (Catholic News Agency)

Catholic Relief Services (CRS) is urging the Trump administration to reverse the cancellation of USAID’s “lifesaving and life-giving assistance” following the official announcement that the majority of its programs have been cut... In response, CRS in a March 17 press release stated: “As part of the Catholic Church, Catholic Relief Services believes that human life is a precious gift from God that must be protected and nurtured.” The nongovernmental organization, which carries out the commitment of the U.S. bishops to assist the poor and vulnerable overseas, explained that during the six-week review, it had to halt its “U.S. government-supported work due to the lack of payments.” The CRS statement said that “food in warehouses could not be distributed to the hungry and women and children could not get vital health and nutrition services.” “In addition,” the statement said, “last week’s termination of dozens of CRS’ lifesaving projects will permanently cut off critical aid to more than 20 million people worldwide. Eleven of these terminated projects had received humanitarian waivers.” “These programs do more than save lives. They help lift communities and countries out of poverty. They support local faith-based and church partners that provide services and stability to their communities and to their countries.” “In the holy season of Lent in this special jubilee year, Pope Francis invites Catholics and all people to become artisans of hope by building communities rooted in solidarity.” The statement highlighted that the United States has a responsibility to global aid. “CRS programs attend to the needs of very poor communities. As the most powerful and wealthy country in the world, our government also has a moral responsibility to assist the most vulnerable. As Pope Paul VI said in his encyclical Populorum Progressio: ‘It is a very important duty of the advanced nations to help the developing nations.’” “By ending these lifesaving programs, our government is not only neglecting our nation’s responsibility but also weakening the very foundations of peace, stability, and prosperity”...

The recognition of "the holy season of Lent" and "this special jubilee year" is important.

Edited to add: And on the same topic, from South Africa:

South African Priest Urges Trump to Reconsider Funding Cuts, Show Mercy to Women and Children in Gaza (ACI Africa)

The Director of the Justice and Peace Commission of the Southern African Catholic Bishops’ Conference (SACBC) has called on United States President Donald Trump to show mercy and compassion toward vulnerable groups especially in Africa and the Middle East who stand to bear the greatest brunt of U.S. funding cuts. In his Lenten reflection on Tuesday, March 18, Fr. Stan Muyebe pointed out in particular HIV patients in South Africa and other African countries, and women and children in Gaza, who he said need constant aid. Fr. Muyebe further appealed to President Trump the rethink the U.S. decision to assume control over Gaza. He highlighted the words of Jesus in the Gospel of Luke, “Be merciful just as your heavenly Father is merciful,” urging President Trump to reflect God’s merciful nature in his decisions. Addressing President Trump directly, he said, “In the name of our God, who is full of mercy and compassion, please show your mercy and compassion to the people who are HIV positive in South Africa”... The country is the largest recipient of USAID’s President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief (PEPFAR), receiving $462 million in fiscal year 2023. Science Magazine reports that if PEPFAR's funding is not replaced, South Africa could experience 565,000 additional new HIV infections and 601,000 more deaths from the virus by 2034... Fr. Muyebe addressed the President based on the impact of decisions in Gaza and South Africa, saying, “I know you want to be the greatest president in the world, and that is what we are praying for. But your greatness, as the most powerful president in the world, will be seen in the way you make decisions that reveal the power of God's mercy and compassion and renew the hope that God wants to give to the most vulnerable in this world”... He compared the behavior of some global powers to the Pharisees criticized in the Gospel, saying, “The focus is on themselves and not on the most vulnerable in society”...

Pope decries 'appalling humanitarian catastrophe' in Sudan (Vatican News)

The Holy See Press Office publishes Pope Francis' Sunday Angelus remarks in which he prays for peace in places of suffering around the world, especially for the 'appalling humanitarian catastrophe' in Sudan, the tensions in South Sudan and Myanmar, 'suffering so much.' He also expresses his hope that this Lent may be a time of healing for all...

From censorship to curiosity: Pope Francis’ appreciation for the power of history and books (The Conversation)

They encapsulate Francis’ image: a spiritual leader using his influence to try to bring peace. He is also a down-to-earth man who wishes you “buon appetito.” Francis does not fear addressing contemporary politics, unlike many of his predecessors. And some popes have closed their eyes to not just current events but past ones: learning and history that threatened their vision of the church. As a medievalist, I appreciate Francis’ contrasting approach: a religious leader who embraces history and scholarship, and encourages others to do the same – even as book bans and threats to academic freedom mount. For 400 years, the Catholic Church famously maintained the Index Librorum Prohibitorum, a long list of banned books... Even before the index, church leaders permitted little flexibility of thought... The pope {Francis} advocated for studying church history in a way that is unfiltered and authentic, flaws included. He emphasized primary sources and urged students to ask questions. Francis criticized the view that history is mere chronology – rote memorization that fails to analyze events... In addition to showing respect for history, the pope has emphasized his own love of reading. “Each new work we read will renew and expand our worldview,” he wrote... Citing his compatriot, the novelist Jorge Luis Borges, Francis reminded Catholics that to read is to “listen to another person’s voice. … We must never forget how dangerous it is to stop listening to the voice of other people when they challenge us!”...

Pope: The Church is the people of God walking together (Vatican News)

In a message addressed to participants in the Second Synodal Assembly of Italian Churches, Pope Francis reminds them that the Church is made by the people of God who walk together, and that Christian joy does not come from easy solutions to problems but from the certainty that the Lord never abandons us...

Research shows that a majority of Christian religious leaders accept the reality of climate change but have never mentioned it to their congregations (The Conversation)

Nearly 90% of U.S. Christian religious leaders believe humans are driving climate change. When churchgoers learn how widespread this belief is, they report taking steps to reduce its effects, as we found in our research published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences... The survey assessed religious leaders’ beliefs about climate change and whether they discuss climate change with their congregations. According to that data, while the overwhelming majority of Christian religious leaders accept the human-driven reality of climate change, nearly half have never mentioned climate change or humans’ role in it to their congregations. Further, only a quarter have spoken about it more than once or twice... We then surveyed a sample of Christian Americans from major denominations across the country and found they think roughly half of Christian leaders in the U.S., and in churches like their own, deny that humans cause climate change. Given the actual number is closer to 1 in 10 based on the data we examined, it appears Christians overestimate the prevalence of climate denial among their leaders by around five times the level found in polling... churchgoers who were informed about the actual consensus among religious leaders in accepting climate change were more likely to state that “taking action to reduce climate change” was consistent with their church’s values. Churchgoers who received this information were also more likely to feel it would be inconsistent with their church’s values to vote for a political candidate who opposes actions that could slow climate change. These findings highlight that religious leaders have a unique power to influence climate action – but only if they let their beliefs be known...

So thank God Pope Francis is taking the lead amongst Catholics in this regard.

Pope appeals for end to war in Sudan (Vatican News)

On the eve of Holy Week, Pope Francis renews his call for dialogue in war-torn Sudan and asks the international community to provide humanitarian assistance to the beleaguered population. He does not neglect to also to pray for Lebanon and other countries wracked by conflict and violence across the globe...

The failure of humanitarian pacifism presents itself as an intelligent doctrine, for a long time I have not been surprized by its monstrous unreality. On the contrary, Catholic papal pacifism is an intellegent doctrine it is linked, rational, and much superior to reality. How then does the "humanitarian" pacifism expressed here by Bergoglio and posters in this blog not pay attention to the encyclicals of the "peace popes" BXV in particular. If you humanitarian pacifists would look a little in that direction it would be interesting for you and if you have already read them how are your views so opposite?+JMJ+

>321 brone:

"Humanitarian pacifism" is not a term I've ever come across, but there's a proliferation of jargon these days, so that's not really surprising. But unless you define what you mean by it I can't really comment on it. I would add that active nonviolence is different from pacificism. The latter is simply a negative, a refusal to use violence, while the former is a positive value, often related to the Hindi word ahimsa favoured by Gandhi, leading to active and organised attempts to both prevent and end violent conflicts as well as to a whole way of being, a spirituality, aspiring to nonviolence in every aspect of our lives.

Pope Benedict XV is of course one of the great peace popes, as he tried to end World War I by nonviolent means, and did all he could to assist the victims of the war. The current emphasis on active nonviolence did not come out of nowehere but builds on the teaching and example first and foremost of Jesus himself, and of many of his later followers including St Francis of Assisi and various popes such as Benedict XV, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis. I don't see any contradiction (and certainly not "opposite") between Benedict XV and these later popes, but if you do, perhaps you could give us some examples and details?

There's an interesting inconsistency in your post, where you refer to Benedict XV by his title and Francis by his surname. If we're using only papal surnames, why not della Chiesa and Bergoglio? Checking his biography I notice that della Chiesa was born just two weeks short of a century before my own birth.

Pope Francs RIP.

I see now why you have barred me from the fake Catholic Tradition post. Your interchange with Tim was all warm and fuzzy and very progressive. Youse guys should change the name of the post to Progressive Catholic, Trads as you guys insultingly call us need not post.+AMDG+

>324 brone:

Warm and fuzzy? Other terms might be charitable, civil, courteous and rational. But why would you expect a conversation between fellow Catholics to be anything but that? It's not the Pro and Con group, where anything goes!

As for the name of the Catholic Tradition group, there was a conversation a few years ago about what it should be called. Some favoured a simpler name, like just Catholicism, arguing that "tradition" was a term which has to some extent been hijacked by a small but vocal, visible and well-funded dissident group mainly in the USA. However the majority feeling was that the Catholic Church is by definition traditional, so all Catholics are traditionalists, and we should maintain that group name to reclaim its original and true meaning and not let it be redefined by a small minority. The Catholic Tradition group contains many shades of Catholic opinion, and there are both "progressive" and "conservative" Catholic voices on it, as there should be in a diverse and global Church. If the "progressive" voices are more common, that simply represents the reality of the global Catholic Church.

Trads as you guys insultingly call us

Not sure who "you guys" are - that's a divisive term. I don't think I have ever called you a "Trad"*, and as I say above, in the truest sense of the term all of us Catholics are "traditionalists" - we believe that divine revelation is found in both scripture and tradition, not sola scriptura. I certainly proudly claim that title, and I think interrogating and trying to understand our tradition is an important part of being a Catholic.

* If I have, my apologies, but the terms "progressive" and "conservative" in quotation marks are a convenient shorthand for differing views within the Church, and as far as I know many of the latter publicly self-identify as "traditionalist".

No wonder they are locking people up in England when "warm and fuzzy" and "youse guys" are on youre hate speech list. Whats really eating you my friend is that for a generation now American Catholics and priests are much more orthodox. Polarization and generational dynamics in the post boomer church is striking. The JPll generation of Americans are very orthodox but still allowed some free-flowing liturgies. This all stopped with Ratzinger priests and young people have left the current progressive wing of the boomers forever. And they are not replicating it anywhere in America. Thiestic theology may be the dominant culture in the Church worldwide but in main steet Catholic America the theology of orthodoxy and a trend to toward a traditional liturical praxis as well as leaning toward political conservatism as evident in the overwhelming support of Mass going Catholics in the November election. An unusual number of conservative Catholics appointed to high government posts attest to this shift. Theological progressivism as posted here is dead in the water in the young American Church while 75% of the septuagenarians still support Marxist causes. They still pitch the tired ole narratives of the "spirit of the Vatll". Which is none other than their interpretation of an event that established dynamic change. In the name of a populist rendering of what they call "the people of God" under a vague idea of a mandatory following of the Holy Spirit. They now say they are Synodal, and it is where the Spirit has moved us now, we found this out they say by "listening" Translation of all this progressive rupture is that what the Church has taught for centuries was wrong at least wrong for our times. For instance, in Jan Borgoglio appointed McElroy to head the Wahington DC diocese "As an advocate for reform" Really? There has been a generation of McElroy look alikes there for 50 years. What's he gonna reform stuff he himself implemented in San Diego? We as conservatives when appealing to the actual documents of the council and not the narrative of the spirit of the council, are dismissed as backward purveyors of shallow theology discredited as above and actually censored on another thread. This kind of "poisoning of the well" and destruction of the hermeneutic happens with progressives on a grand scale. The more we appeal to tradition the more they discredit continuity. Vatll was "captured" by elite Catholic academicians that remain with us today supported by a boomer hierarchy. They have been "listening" for years now and accompanying the peripheral which is nothing but a palor trick to install a new democratic process of what is called consulting the people of God. The rhetoric of the synod and the spirit of the council are joined at the hip. The synod is a continuation of the revolution a rupture that was momentarly interrupted by Wojtyla and Ratzinger even Begoglio stumbled in small openings to tradition no matter how ambiguous and contradictory he was. The bigger the revolution for progressives the more likely the involvement of the Holy Spirit after all who wants to be an enemy of the Spirit. The obsessive "agree with me" of progressives is tainted with a deep impatience and sense of frustration How long they pray must we wait for the misogynistic, homophobic conservative Catholic to change and correct his views. My friend John and friends say the synod is the advent of a new listening Church which underscores their Teihardian sort of "end of history" inevitability. Grievance shouts from the roof tops of these synodal enthusiasts rupture of boundaries is their real goal. The orthodox goal is to confront them with theololical arguments not just magisterial arguments; White smoke this week could be the beginning of a new era.+JMJ+

>326 brone:

Thanks for that response. Not sure where "hate speech" came from. I was actually agreeing with you on "warm and fuzzy" and pointing out that it's what one would expect in a conversation between fellow Christians, brothers and sisters. As for "youse guys", I did not call it hate speech but I did point out that it's a divisive term, and I asked what or whom you meant by it.

I'm not sure why you bring up Teilhard de Chardin in so many of your posts. While I believe that he has some interesting insights, I would not say he is a pivotal modern Catholic theologian such as Congar, Lonergan, Kung, Schillebeeckx, Ratzinger and the like. Some of his work has been superseded. He never appeared in any of the theology courses that I did, and I doubt whether his work was cited at Vatican II. You sometimes give the impression that the whole of modern Catholic theology and praxis has been influenced by him; I would suggest that this is simply not the case. I'm not aware of "underscoring {a} Teihardian sort of 'end of history' inevitability", although I would suggest that orthodox traditional Christian theology does support an inevitable "end of history", namely the Second Coming of Christ, when all things will be perfected and united in Him.

this progressive rupture is that what the Church has taught for centuries was wrong at least wrong for our times

Another straw person. Firstly, there is no rupture. What we have is reform in continuity with what went before. Far from "discrediting continuity", it is in fact the dominant hermeneutic. Secondly, seeking answers to the questions of our times does not mean that the answers for previous eras were wrong, simply that they need to be developed in the light of changing circumstances. And thirdly, that is what the Church has always done during the two thousand years of her existence; it is, in fact, our Tradition. "Tradition" is not just a word or a slogan, and it is certainly not a dead museum piece, it is a living reality which needs to be interrogated, understood and continued.

I don't disagree with you that there is a small, vocal and visible resurgence of dissidence towards Vatican II in the US Catholic Church. But I think your efforts to equate this with American Catholicism in general are disingenuous. I personally know hundreds of American Catholics, I've met several of your cardinals and bishops, I'm in almost daily contact with American priests, nuns and active laity, I've worked closely with many of them, and I personally have only ever come across two or three who are anywhere near your end of the spectrum. Most are appalled by it, and many are actively opposing your political and religious agenda. In the USA in general just under 50% of the electorate voted for the current administration, and 48 point something percent didn't (including just about every American Catholic whom I know personally), so to refer to this as "main street Catholic America" is rather an exaggeration, unless perhaps there are two parallel main streets?

Your opinion about American youth is noted, but even if it is true, it represents a tiny minority of Catholic youth globally. I live on a continent where around 60% of the population is younger than 25 years, and more than a third between 15-34 years old (link). By 2030 young Africans are expected to make up 42% of the world’s youth (link). I don't see any rejection of Vatican II or Pope Francis there, and certainly no appetite for mass in Latin, whether celebrated according to the Ordinary Rite or the superseded antecedent rite.

And finally, let me once again patiently but resignedly (and hopefully charitably, even warmly and fuzzily) point out that "Marxist" is a word which has an actual definition. It does not mean anyone and everyone who disagrees with you and your president.

There you go again with your gaslighting you in Africa in contact with American priests every day who are far from my end of the spectrum. My end of the "spectrum" includes a leading role in our diocesan OCIA program, Totos Tuus missionary program modeled after JPll motto "entirely yours" devotion to Mary and a key figure in my parish's weekly finances. The American Catholics that you know are they anywhere near this spectrum. Marxist is a term I use alot because movements in America rely more and more on indoctrination and brain washing, ignited and motivated by an enthusiastic intelligensia or experts like progressives engaged in developing and spreading utopian fantasies. They are immune from the impracticality and consequences of their bluprints for they rarely speak out in public instead the seek to influence those who do like your good self and gaslight those who don't like myself.+AMDG+

>328 brone:

Once again it would be very helpful for me if you would explain what you mean by gaslighting. Look, I admire what you are doing for the Church programmes that you mention, but I disagree with your denigration of Vatican II and the late pope, and I also disagree with your political views, as do most of the American Catholics whom I know personally. Catholicism is a broad and diverse faith community and we seek unity but with plenty of room for God-given diversity.

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing, but let's try to do it charitably. I try to state my reasons for disagreeing with what you post, and offer my apologies if I don't make myself clear enough. I cite my personal knowledge of American Catholics merely to challenge your characterisation of "American Catholics" - they are not the homogenous monolith which you appear to present them as. "American Catholics" include some of the most "progressive" Catholics I have ever come across, most of them great supporters of the late Pope Francis, and you yourself admit that many US cardinals, bishops, priests and nuns would fall into that category. As for youth, I noted your impression of US youth, but I am not American and I try to take a global view of the universal Catholic Church. The majority of youth in the world almost certainly do not fall into the "conservative" category which you promote.

Your little riff on Marxism makes no sense to me, I'm afraid.

I'm sorry to see that Marxism makes no sense to you and that and your pontifical saying that kids all over the world certainly don't fall in with my beliefs. The fact is that Marxism is impossible for the Catholic Church to ignore. One of youre favorite Jebbies as well as Begoglio's Arrupe said he indorses a "practical catechesis" to ingage the ideology. The idea youse guys have of accepting elements of Marxist analysis and somehow not realizing their relationship with the ideology. Dose'nt seem to "make sense to you". These elements of Marxist ideology are in the very words you speak. Even in this era of Bergoglian "discernment". So being a certified catechesist I confront these elements everywhere I percieve them to be, but according to youre malicious gaslighting is has no effect on Kids. Your polemic spirit is in "disagreement" with me. My disagreements with you are not polemic but serene in a presentation of the faith, gaslighting me and pretending to not know what gaslighting means is your way of destorting reality over our dialectical development of the last couple of years. Youre kicking me off the Fake Traditional Catholic thread is proof of your hegemony over that site. Obviously, you don't have the same power here if you did I would be gone for youre alledged accusations of fake hate speech. The contradiction of your actions doesnt jive by attacking my traditional foundation it goes against the grain of your modern progressive Marxism. Culture warriors you commonly insult me as your Marxist sociopolitical programs of recent years cleverly distinguish from ideology. Youre scathing remark about me and the young is evidence of this. The young must be taught that the Catholic Church does not teach or sponsor detailed socio-political programs, Like Marxism when the Church does as it recently has supported political programs it then becomes one program against another. Success of these programs engages our progressive Marxists in the struggle of the classes to its Marxist conclusion. Progressive Marxism is thus presented as an equivalent of Salvation. As the end all and be all of man. In all my discourses here with progressives I hear little of the young and of families they down play this demension as "know one listens to you" by ridiculing a catechcist as irrelavent renders themselves insensitive in a large part to their own reality. I keep a safe distance from simplistic pedagogy. Indoctrination is not what is called for these days learning the Catechism by rote is long gone. Discernment a favorite word of progressives. Discernment to me is a matter of education giving people especially the young the ability to recognize the progressive new forms of Marxism and other ideologies. And also, to recognize the good things that are in these ideologies, but mainly to measure with precision and frankness the ways progressives lead us away from Christ. My goal is to reach those kids who you say ain't buying it, to be free rather than fearful in the face of Marxist inspired movements. Knowing that to a certain extent I am capable of clear collaboration with my favorite gaslighter here. It is required for the common good and also, I am no less capable of keeping my distance where Catholic conscience imposes such a course. Silence will never be the appropriate mode of catechetical treatment of such an enormous evil as modern progressive Marxism.+JMJ+

>330 brone:

Again, a lot of that makes little sense to me. I do agree with you that "the young must be taught that the Catholic Church does not teach or sponsor detailed socio-political programmes", and indeed the late Pope Francis was very clear on this. The Church is not left or right politically, and has been critical of the "detailed socio-political programmes" of both Marxism and unbridled free market capitalism. Catholic Social Doctrine points to a middle road, recognising the right to private property and profit, but at the same time prioritising the common good and the dignity and rights of workers. Something along those lines has worked fairly well in the post-war mixed economies of a number of northern European nations, including some Scandinavian countries and my own native UK (at least pre-Thatcher).

I don't think I ever tried to tell you how to teach American youth. All I'm saying is that the youth in Africa, and indeed elsewhere in the rest of the world outside of the exceptionalism of the USA, are unlikely to buy into your right wing political ideology and your "conservative" brand of Catholicism, including the Latin mass whether in the Ordinary Rite or the antecedent rite. In America you speak with some experience of the youth (although I repeat that your perspective on either the youth or the Church is not shared by all American Catholics), while I have some experience of youth in Africa. Although it's a vast and diverse continent, nevertheless there's a lot of literature suggesting that my experience of African youth is not unique and can to some extent be generalised.

I also don't believe I have ever deliberately insulted you as you claim (my apologies if I have inadvertently done so), and I don't know who the "youse guys" that you seem to associate me with are. If an individual has insulted your or claimed something, take it up with them, not me.

You have used the term "gaslighting" in that post several times, yet you still refuse to tell me what you actually mean by it. As I've frequently said, I've looked it up, and as far as I can see it doesn't mean politely disagreeing with you, presenting arguments as to why I disagree, and trying to set the conversation into the context of a bigger picture.