Latin Mass, FBI, Scapulas, Superbowls.

>5 brone:

My condolences on the death of your bishop. He's been mentioned in a couple of threads elsewhere on LT, eg here. Apparently another tragic victim of gun violence. May he rest in peace.

>10 brone:

Is there any consistent reason why you refer to the current pope as "Bergoglio" instead of "Francis", yet the previous pope as "Benedict XVI" and not "Ratzinger", even though he was in fact Cardinal Ratzinger and not Benedict XVI in 1986 when he wrote the words you quoted?

As usual, you omitted to cite the source. It's from his LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS which he wrote as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1986, para 8. And yet once he becomes pope he seems more open "to accept the homosexual condition", eg in his comments on condom use by gay male prostitutes in 2010 (link), the same year that it became public knowledge that there was an active homosexual community within the Vatican, and indeed within the papal household (link).

You also omit to link to Cardinal Cupich's words, here. It's a beautiful reflection on God's love and mercy, but I don't see any reference to homosexuality. Incidentally, Cardinal Walter Kasper's book Mercy: The Essence of the Gospel and the Key to Christian Life is well worth a read.

Little ole me cannot ever remember anyone in my life who would preemptively exclude someone from the life of the Church

Maybe worth listening to some of those who at times feel excluded, including women, young people, clergy abuse victims, women who have been in sexual relationships with priests, children of priests, homosexuals, blacks, migrants, divorced and remarried Catholics, spouses living in an HIV-discordant marriage, couples in mixed marriages, women trapped in polygamous marriages, pregnant schoolgirls who get kicked out of Catholic schools, etc.

>18 brone: I haven't heard a word from Bergoglio or Roch condemning the 113B dollars going down the rabbit hole that is Ukraine

I won't bother responding to most of this rant, but just for the record, Pope Francis (whom I presume you are referring to with the disrespectful use of "Bergoglio") has been very outspoken against the war in Ukraine. Many of his interventions have been posted on LT in another group, and just a week ago Voice of America reported that "Pope Francis has repeatedly called for peace since Russia sent its troops into Ukraine". As for Cardinal Roche (not "Roch"), he heads the dicastery on divine worship so he would not be expected to make official statements on Ukraine. Other Vatican cardinals have done so, including Cardinal Parolin, who stressed that "war itself is an error and an abomination", repeating Pope Francis' call to "use all diplomatic instruments, including those that have not been used to date, to achieve a ceasefire and a just peace" (link). The pope sent Cardinals Krajewski and Czerny to visit Ukraine last year, and has expressed his own willingness to visit.

>20 brone:

Catholic Bishops in Nigeria Call for Calm, Electoral Body Declares President-elect (ACI Africa)

Catholic Bishops in Nigeria are calling upon the country’s citizens to “remain calm, law-abiding and fervent in prayers” hours before Nigeria’s electoral body declared the President-elect in the February 25 general elections... In a statement issued February 28 on behalf of members of the Catholic Bishops Conference of Nigeria (CBCN), Archbishop Lucius Iwejuru Ugorji urges “leaders of political parties to exercise restraint”... “We thank God, who in His infinite mercy, has continued to save our country Nigeria from chaos, anarchy, and doom,” they add...

>21 John5918: Observers and bishops cast doubt on Nigerian election (Tablet)

Controversy surrounds the use of the electronic Bimodal Voter Accreditation System to prevent voter fraud...

Outcomes of Nigeria’s General Election Mirror Country’s Rot: African Catholic Theologian (ACI Africa)

With the high levels of poverty and corruption in Nigeria, amid increased violence and persecution of Christians, the west African country is always getting the leaders that mirror its rottenness, a leading African Catholic Theologian has said. Commenting on Nigeria’s February 25 presidential election, Fr. Stan Chu Ilo described the poll as “shambolic”, and having been a waste of time. “In Nigeria, it is the politics of the stomach, with no value chain. We get the leadership that mirrors our rotten social and political life,” Fr. Stan told ACI Africa on Wednesday, March 1. He added, “No Christian or right-thinking person should accept Nigeria as presently constituted; it is an unjust and sinful structure and system destroying the best in us. Nigeria has become a necropolis and this election is clear evidence.” “An evil tree will always produce evil fruits”... In a statement they issued on February 28, the members of the Catholic Bishops Conference of Nigeria (CBCN) said, “The experiences of many voters on Election Day were a far cry from the hitch-free exercise that was repeatedly promised”... “In addition, the delay in the electronic transmission of the results of the polling units to the INEC Results Viewing Portal before their announcement at the collation centers has raised suspicion in many minds about the transparency of the entire process,” Catholic Bishops in Nigeria said, and added, “There is, therefore, palpable tension in the air and agitations not just by some political parties but by a cross-section of the Nigerian population”... “What is playing out before our very eyes is an elite contestation. Ordinary people are being manipulated and exploited by these rich men,” the member of the Clergy of the Catholic Diocese of Awgu in Nigeria says. He adds, “All the contestants in the presidential elections were often found in similar camps. So, I did not really see any major differences other than that Obi/Datti (of the Labor Party) had a cleaner record than the rest and with a better vision and plan for governance”... “These folks are all in the same boat. They will settle their differences later and decide how to share the spoils of war”... He finds it regrettable that Christian leaders in Nigeria have not prioritized their mission, but are “busy building mansions, fundraising, and collecting money from corrupt politicians”...

An interesting quote from Catholic Cardinal Hollerich which might be of relevance to the title and some of the content of this thread, and indeed might be applicable not only to the Catholic Church but also to other Christians in this Christianity group:

our Church politics has to be destroyed – progressives and conservatives, and even one continental church against another continental church. Now we need the holy spirit

>28 brone:

I think your rant against the Catholic Church is misleading and demonstrates ignorance of the Church.

The Catholic Church has a universal liturgy which was approved almost unanimously by all the bishops of the world during the Church's most recent authoritative doctrinal meeting, the Second Vatican Council (Vatican II), sixty years ago. That liturgy is universal, ie it is for the whole Church, and it is both a sign and a means of the unity of the Church. Lex orandi, lex credendi, as we pray, so we believe. We are one Church and so we have one liturgy.

In the early years after Vatican II, pastoral exceptions were permitted, particularly so that elderly and sick Catholics were able to pray during their final years in a way they had been familiar with throughout their long lives. Note that it was a limited pastoral exception, and it was certainly not intended to question or undermine the validity of the universal liturgy nor to suggest that the use of the old liturgy was to be normal or regular.

There is now nobody left alive who fits those criteria. I'm nearly seventy and I can remember the old liturgy, which changed when I was in my teens, but neither I nor anyone else can claim that this was the only liturgy with which we were familiar from childhood into old age. The small, but visible and vocal, group in a handful of countries which is agitating for use of the old liturgy is made up largely of people who never experienced it when it was the universal liturgy of the Church, and who are questioning the authority of the Church as expressed in Vatican II. brone may deny that they personally hold these views (just as they deny elsewhere that they are right wing), but nevertheless this is the publicly expressed position of their fellow travellers.

And yet the Church in her wisdom and mercy still allows pastoral exceptions. The old liturgy can still be celebrated in certain designated churches, shrines and monasteries. But it cannot be celebrated in normal parishes. That would be a contradiction. The Church has a universal liturgy which unites all its parishes.

The claim that this is about the Latin mass (TLM in the insider code of its adherents) is particularly disingenuous. The Latin mass can be celebrated freely and publicly anywhere anytime. The definitive text of the current universal liturgy of the Church is in Latin, and Vatican II expressly encourages its use. So those who merely enjoy the beauty, the language, the music, the mysticism, of a mass celebrated in Latin are free to do so using the universal liturgy of the Church. But that's not what they are agitating for. It is not the mass in Latin which they want, but the old liturgy. They wish to separate themselves from the universal liturgy of the Church. It's hard to see this as anything but schism or protestantism, particularly when brone and their ilk publicly vilify, ridicule, abuse and dismiss those Church authorities with whom they disagree.

One final comment for non-Catholic Christians who might be bemused by this internal Catholic spat. The liturgy deniers are a tiny minority, mainly in a handful of countries such as USA, UK and France, but in this age of culture wars and social media, they have a disproportionate online presence. The vast majority of Catholics continue to do what Catholics have always done, which is to just get on with it, accepting broadly what their Church teaches, and quietly ignoring the bits they disagree with.

>30 brone:

There's not much of substance there, but let me make a few short comments.

There are 1.3 billion Catholics in the world. The few hundred Americans that you refer to, plus their handful of British and French fellow travellers, are indeed a tiny minority.

As for the USA being a "Marxist nation", this is a favourite narrative of the far right. Throughout the world the USA is viewed as right of centre, whether far right under a Republican administration or centre right under Democrats, and I think you'll find it difficult to persuade anybody outside your own circle that the USA is Marxist. For the record, I am not a Marxist, although I'm certainly further to the political left than brone, but I struggle to understand what any secular political and economic ideology, whether right or left, has to do with the Catholic liturgy.

And I notice that you have not actually responded to any of the points in my post, but merely ranted about Marxism. However since you have already told me clearly in a parallel thread in this group that you have no interest in engaging in conversations, that's fine.

>34 brone: human rights but human obligations

One of the key facets of Catholic Social Doctrine is the importance of both rights and responsibilities (ie obligations).

>36 brone:

Clearly you have strong feelings about the war in Ukraine, and I agree with some of your concerns, albeit not necessarily with your manner of expressing them nor your partisan politicisation of it. Actually you'll find that many Catholics, including Pope Francis, are not so far from your position on Ukraine, coming at it from a different angle, that of nonviolence or even a rigorous application of all the criteria of the classic "just war" tradition. You might find the presentation by Cardinal McElroy and other panelists earlier this month interesting, as they examine in detail the Ukraine conflict: link. Well worth watching for anyone who has concerns about the way the west is handling Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine.

>37 John5918:

Cardinal McElroy and Notre Dame University have focused on another topic other than sex, namely the war in Ukraine that you are so concerned about. It's a pity that all you can do is continue to criticise the Catholic Church when it focuses on peace, and particularly on ending a war that you yourself apparently also want to end.

>40 brone:

Taking a single sentence out of context from a public event that lasted one hour and forty minutes is not very convincing, but in fact I don't recall him saying that. He did say that the people of Ukraine have the right to defend themselves in the face of an illegal armed invasion, but the whole tenor of his talk was questioning the manner in which the West has responded. The cardinal's words were very nuanced as he wrestled with a difficult and complex issue which has no simple resolution, and he certainly doesn't support war.

Ah well, let any discerning LT members who are interested listen to the good cardinal's talk here and judge for themselves whether you or I are more accurately characterising his position. The whole thing is 1 hour 22 minutes and is very interesting, but his main presentation is only 23 minutes from about 9:00 to 32:00.

It seems to me that he is recognising that the Ukraine war meets the "just war" criterion of "just cause" but raises serious questions about other criteria such as proportionality and the prohibition of attacks on civilians, as well as questioning whether enough was done to prevent the war in the first place. He also raises the issue of moral choices for ending a war once it has begun, and the moral obligation for other nations to minimise the impact of war, ie the moral responsibilities of third parties. As far as I can see he makes no reference whatsoever to US taxpayers, raises questions about the manner in which the US and other nations are supporting and sustaining the war, and warns against surrogate wars. He explicitly de-links the moral imperatives from political decision-making; this is a bishop speaking about morals, not a political leader speaking about politics.

>45 brone: are you concerned as much about the vast quantities of depleted uranium currently littering Iraq, which was used almost exclusively by the US, or is your concern limited to using 'depleted uranium' as a scare tactic?

For what it's worth, it's biggest danger is not radioactivity, but the extremely toxic fumes it gives off when burned.

Cardinal McElroy's presentation is now available in written form here.

Citation: McElroy, Robert W. (2023) "Our New Moment: Renewing Catholic Teaching on War and Peace," The Journal of Social Encounters: Vol. 7: Iss. 1, 266-271.

For any non-Catholic Christians reading this who might be surprised to hear a well-prepared presentation by a cardinal at a noted university described by a fellow Catholic as "puerile", it might be worth knowing that Cardinal McElroy has a Master of Divinity degree, a Licentiate of Sacred Theology from Santa Clara University, a Doctor of Sacred Theology degree in moral theology from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, and a Masters in US History and a Doctor of Political Science degree from Stanford. He serves as a member of the Vatican Dicastery for Promoting Integral Human Development, which is the dicastery that deals with issues of war and peace such as he addresses in his presentation. The position he presents draws on traditional Catholic moral theology and is in line with the teaching trajectory of all the popes of the last sixty years, some of whom he quotes. So while one might disagree with the good cardinal if one has solid arguments and analysis, it could be considered, well, rather puerile simply to dismiss his comments as "puerile".

>53 brone: deviants

I wouldn't use the word "deviants", which is an emotive and value laden term. Not sure where you got that from. I think a more accurate and objective word might be "dissidents" - people who dissent from the teaching and practice of the Church. Lex orandi, lex credendi, as they pray, so they believe, and those who dissent from the prayer of the Church are thus also dissenting from the belief of the Church. I think that is the very traditional theological reason why the pope is stressing the need for Catholics to be united in their prayer. I believe he is inviting the sheep back into the fold, not trying to get rid of anybody.

>55 brone:

Fair enough, if you want to describe yourself as a deviant, that's your choice. But as usual, no comment from you on the actual substance of the post?

>58 brone: When he does shut down all TLM Masses we go back to the rock Mass.

Why not be honest? It's not the Latin Mass (which I presume is what you mean by TLM) which has been shut down, it is the Tridentine Rite Mass, which was superseded by the current universal rite of the Catholic Church when you and I were still youngsters. The Latin Mass is in fact the normative version of the universal rite and the Church encourages its use. There are no restrictions on celebrating the universal rite of the Mass in any language, including Latin. It is not Latin you are hankering after, it is the Tridentine Rite, and you do nobody any service by pretending otherwise.

As for the "rock mass", do they still exist? There was a period of experimentation in the early years after the Second Vatican Council when some less than ideal initiatives were tried, and most of them died an early and unmourned death. "The reverential language of the liturgy" without any "easy familiarity" can be found in Masses in a wide variety of languages throughout the world, exemplifying "the radical theocentrism" of the liturgy. I am truly sorry if you happen to live in a diocese where there are no parishes or religious houses where the Mass is celebrated in this respectful and reverential manner, but even sorrier that you spend your time agitating for the use of a liturgical rite that was abandoned practically unanimously by all the bishops of the Church gathered together at the Vatican Council sixty years ago for very good theological, ecclesiological, Christological and liturgical reasons, instead of seeking and working for good liturgy in your own diocese according to the universal rite of the Church, in unity with the rest of our Church.

>60 brone:

Can you provide a citation for a secular government in Ireland suppressing the Tridentine Mass? It sounds rather unlikely.

But at least you're finally being honest and referring to the Tridentine Mass and not the Latin Mass.

>62 brone:

You don't have "opponents" here, you have sisters and brothers in Christ, and I find it sad that you set yourself up in opposition, and reject the universal liturgy of our Church and also the dignity and teaching office of our pope. A blessed Easter to you, and of course to all the new catechumens who will be baptised at the Easter Vigil. Like you I have assisted with the RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults, for those who are not familiar with the term) in the past and have been involved in accompanying hundreds of people on their journey into the Catholic Church, although currently I am not actively involved in that aspect of Church life.

It's a joy to celebrate the Easter Vigil in the open air at an outstation chapel in the swamps of South Sudan, where the mud and grass chapel is too small to accommodate the hundreds of Christians and catechumens, in a local language into which the Easter Vigil liturgy has not yet been officially translated so the US missionary priest is doing an ad hoc translation from the English and Arabic texts by torchlight, where the liturgy lasts for hours due to the number of baptisms and confirmations taking place, with the Easter fire blazing, people singing hymns in both western and traditional African style, with drumming and dancing and the women ululating, with the rainy season just beginning but the rains holding off for the occasion, and even the sound of distant gunfire absent that holy night. That was many years ago, and I am now retired from such front line missionary work, but it and similar occasions are still a poignant memory.

Talking of a "holy night", I think the Exsultet or Easter Proclamation, sung during the Easter Vigil by a deacon, priest or cantor to a plainchant melody in either Latin or English, is one of the most beautiful liturgical songs there is. "This is the night... The sanctifying power of this night dispels wickedness, washes faults away, restores innocence to the fallen, and joy to mourners, drives out hatred, fosters concord, and brings down the mighty... O truly blessed night, when things of heaven are wed to those of earth, and divine to the human..."

>64 brone: the white supremist take over of the Universe

Do you really expect to be taken seriously when you post fantasy terms like this? At least cite a source so we can all read it without having to trawl through the swamps of right wing propaganda.

>36 brone: AMEN!

Well-written, well-said.
I differ with your conclusion but do agree all churches (including and importantly, the Catholic Church) must return to the original joy of a deeper relationship, daily, with Christ as man and God, as well as the Father Himself. The Spirit comes in when the door is open. Not as a gift but as a fulfillment and well-exhibited in Jesus life on this plane.
We are in a dangerous world.
Our president is wandering to senility and an embarrassment and danger. A war has already begun with the Ukraine but that is only the first battle. And it is also engaged on the financial front, on the morality front, and really on all fronts.
Biden has destroyed this country in less than two years and cannot even talk to the press nor even a 12 year-old child. A complete and total mess and that is criminal. Also a liar, and working criminal. As the father, there is the son.
Pay attention people. We are already in it. War will garner affection and we cannot thrive paper tiger. China has invested and continues and NOW with Biden in office, and before a change, they begin to rattle the saber. Stand up!!!
Pablo

>69 brone:

No, nobody is saying that the Tridentine Rite was bad, just as nobody was saying that the pre-Tridentine liturgies were bad when they were superseded, nor that the Eastern Rite is bad. For four centuries (not fifteen) the Tridentine Rite was the unifying universal liturgy of the Church. Now it isn't. There is a revised and reformed universal liturgy which has developed from and replaced the Tridentine Rite, and which is now the unifying liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church. When it was first introduced there was a temporary concession made for elderly and sick Catholics who found it difficult to adjust to the revised rite, but it has been affirmed, accepted and indeed welcomed by the vast majority of Catholics throughout the world. Today most have never known any other liturgy. It is not the papacy nor the liturgy which are causing confusion, but rather the tiny, albeit vocal and visible, minority of Catholics who resist the universal rite of the Church, for reasons which they seem reluctant to explain rationally, and who thus foster disunity and confusion.

>71 brone: the Latin mass leads to confusion,disunity, therefore is bad

Nobody has said this about the Latin mass. The normative version of the current universal rite of the Church is in Latin and can be celebrated freely; indeed Vatican II encourages the continued use of Latin. I think you'll find that a lot of the masses celebrated in the Vatican are in Latin, including masses presided by Pope Francis. I've just been watching on YouTube the Easter mass at which he presided last Sunday - the Latin mass. What is causing disunity and confusion is the insistence of a small number of Catholics, mainly in USA, UK and France, on using the Tridentine rite instead of the Church's universal rite, regardless of the language used. I'm still genuinely interested to learn why people such as yourself insist on using the superseded Tridentine rite in Latin rather than the current rite in Latin, but as yet I have never received a clear answer.

"the theology of the Church has changed"

Far be it from me to try to explain the good cardinal's words, quoted without any context, but it seems to me that if theology is "faith seeking understanding", then our theology will change as our understanding deepens. What does not change is the deposit of our faith. Neither does the fundamental doctrine of the Church change, but again our understanding of it develops, and the implementation of doctrine is always tempered by love and mercy.

>75 brone: Bergoglio is not telling the truth

I presume you mean that you disagree with Pope Francis on this issue? How do we know it is not you who is not telling the truth? Often these are not zero sum equations where one is right and one is lying; a lot depends on the lens through which one views an issue.

In fact you are being dishonest when you keep insisting that the issue is TLM, which I understand to be the insider code for "The Latin Mass" amongst you and your ilk. As I have frequently pointed out, the issue is not the Latin mass, as there are no restrictions placed on celebrating mass in Latin. The issue is the pre-Vatican II Tridentine rite. Why can't you be honest and simply say that you prefer the Tridentine rite to the rite of the Church, rather than hiding behind the cloak of Latin? In the final document for the North American Continental stage of the Synod on Synodality, a process which you apparently dismiss as not taking account of your concerns, the issue has in fact been raised, but using the more accurate term "pre-conciliar Latin rite" rather than the misleading "TLM": "Some participants in the synodal process reported on the profound sense of suffering of those prevented from receiving the Eucharist. While there are a variety of reasons for this reality, perhaps preeminent among them is Catholics who are divorced and remarried without an annulment, and others whose objective situation in life contradicts the beliefs and teachings of the Church. Additionally, some delegates spoke of those wounded by the limitations placed on the pre-conciliar Latin rite. Unfortunately, liturgy is not always experienced as unifying. 'We could find our unity in common prayer, but liturgy is one of the things that is divisive in the Church and we must break through that'” (#27). The complete document can be found here.

>77 brone:

What do you think is a "scandal" about another Christian denomination holding a service in a Catholic church? It's actually quite common, albeit maybe not in that hotbed of conservatism, Rome. Ecumenism is not as well understood in southern European countries where there are relatively few protestants as it is in northern Europe, north America and Africa where there are many.

Edited to add: I recall maybe forty years ago a Spanish missionary priest colleague, who was very open minded on most issues, saying to me, "I'm not against ecumenism, but, well, it's just not important, is it!" In a country such as Spain which had a strong Catholic culture and very few protestants, maybe it didn't seem very important, but globally it is!

>79 brone:

Scriptures say "a blessing on anyone who seizes your babies and shatters them against a rock" (Psalm 137:9) and "There is no God" (Psalm 14:1).

Scripture is indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit, and we must indeed acknowledge that the Scriptures firmly, faithfully, and without error teach the truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures. However since the earliest times Christians have recognised that in order to understand this "truth from God" correctly we need to interpret the Scriptures in context, and to analyse any individual text in conjunction with the teaching of the rest of the Scriptures. This has a technical term, biblical exegesis, but it has been around since at least the time of St Augustine (cf his work on Genesis). If you read Dei verbum you'll see that this is still the official teaching of the Catholic Church.

Scriptural fundamentalism and literalism are to be found amongst many Muslims and evangelical protestant Christians, but not, fortunately, in the Catholic or other mainstream global Christian churches.

>Any verse in the bible that can be interpreted as non-literal. can be found elsewhere in a literal sense with the same meaning in another part of the bible....JMJ....

>82 brone:

As usual you have omitted to cite the source from which you copied this. I suspect it is this one, published two years ago. You might note that the source refers to Traditionis custodes by the abbreviation "Tc", which seems logical, but you have changed it to "Te" throughout your post. An interesting quirk. I see you've also changed "Come on, you know that's not what Pope Francis meant!" to replace "Pope Francis" with "Bergoglio". I'd still be interested to hear why you constantly do that.

Incidentally that website says, "All rights reserved. None of the content of this website may be reproduced, either in whole or in part, without the advance written permission of the author". It's very unfair (and potentially illegal in some jurisdictions) to plagiarise an author's work without either getting permission or at least acknowledging them by citing the source.

>84 brone: Bp Athanasius Schneider has called for new "apologetics" and a re-catholicization of countries that have lost the Catholic Faith

Good for him. The "New Evangelisation" has been Church policy for nearly half a century now. I think it was Pope Paul VI who first used the term in Evangelii nuntiandi in 1975. It was popularised by Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI established the Pontifical Council for Promoting the New Evangelisation, and it has been vigorously promoted by Pope Francis, eg in Evangelii gaudium.

>86 brone:

As a matter of interest, what do you consider was "The Thing that overthrew the mighty Roman empire"? I rather thought it was a complex mixture of geographical over-expansion plus internal corruption and decay.

>88 brone:

It would be interesting to see the full context in which Pope Benedict XVI made these remarks, but as usual, you omit any citation.

Most churches in the world still have the altar at the eastern end and the congregation faces east. It is an ancient tradition as you say, but we are not Muslims who must pray facing Mecca, and it is not a compulsory Christian doctrine.

It's a long time since I have read Sacrosanctum concilium in full and I'm sure Benedict is correct in that the Council did not rush into the details of the reform, because they recognised that it needed prayerful study and discernment. It does say, "Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop" (22.1). Over the last sixty years, the Church has exercised that authority as she saw fit. It also says, "That sound tradition may be retained, and yet the way remain open to legitimate progress careful investigation is always to be made into each part of the liturgy which is to be revised. This investigation should be theological, historical, and pastoral" (23), ie the reform is driven by theological and ecclesiological considerations, not by small extremist pressure groups in USA, UK or France.

Interestingly, #23 also states, "As far as possible, notable differences between the rites used in adjacent regions must be carefully avoided." Hm. So we should avoid using a rite which has been superseded when the normative universal rite of the Church is available and accessible!

"The rites should be distinguished by a noble simplicity; they should be short, clear, and unencumbered by useless repetitions" (34). This is one of the key reasons why the former Tridentine rite was superseded. The revised rite removes superfluous material.

"{T}he Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites" (36.1), which it has been. The normative text of the mass is in Latin, and the mass according to the universal rite of the Church can be freely celebrated in Latin without restrictions. Songs and parts of the mass can be, and often are, sung in Latin even during masses in the vernacular. If your diocese is not doing so, better to remind the bishop of this norm rather than seeking solace in an old rite which has been superseded.

The tabernacle is placed slightly aside rather than directly behind the altar because during the mass, the central focus is on the action of Christ being present in the Eucharist here and now on the altar. It doesn't detract from the importance of Christ present in the tabernacle, which is usually in a prominent position where people can see it, honour it and pray before it outside of the mass. It's both/and, not either/or.

Benedict XVI was famous for putting a crucifix on the altar, and many priests follow his example. I've participated in many masses in small outstation chapels in Africa, and a crucifix for the altar is a standard part of the "mass kit" which the priest brings with him. In most permanent churches and chapels however, a very large crucifix is usually fixed to the wall or hangs from the ceiling behind and/or above the priest, where it is far more visible to the congregation than a small crucifix on the altar, although that doesn't preclude also having a crucifix on the altar if desired. Different strokes for different folks, as they say. It's not something that's worth fighting over.

My apologies to non-Catholic Christians in this group for whom this internal Catholic wrangling may seem confusing and inconsequential, if not scandalous.

>90 brone:

It would be nice if occasionally you would respond to the substance of a post rather than just attacking the poster.

>92 brone:

Good grief, "constitutional rights of free speech"? This is a discussion board. Call me old-fashioned, but I foolishly expected discussions, not just disconnected slogans followed by attacks on anyone who disagrees with you. I beg to disagree with your claim that you disagree "respectfully", as most of your posts are extremely disrespectful towards anyone that you disagree with. I will continue to try to engage in civil and rational conversations.

>84 brone:, >85 John5918:

Pope at Audience: Love of Christ drove St. Francis Xavier to furthest frontiers (Vatican News)

"The love of Christ was the strength that drove him to the furthest frontiers, with constant toil and danger, overcoming setbacks, disappointments and discouragement, indeed, giving him consolation and joy in following and serving Him to the end." With these words, Pope Francis described St. Francis Xavier, "rightly considered the greatest missionary of modern times"... Reflecting on the patron saint of Catholic missions to the faithful in the Square, the Pope praised the saint's prolific care for the sick, poor, and children, wherever he found himself. "We can learn from St. Francis Xavier,' the Pope said, praising him as an example for missionaries and also for young people. While celebrating St. Francis Xavier's achievements, the Pope praised all missionaries, who continue to dedicate themselves to helping others, inspired by the faith and love of Christ...

An unequivocal encouragement to evangelisation from Pope Francis as he reflects on the great missionary St Francis Xavier.

>95 brone:

Nothing was "illegitimately" taken away, as explained above with references to the Vatican II's Sacrosancrum concilium. The Church, for good reasons, reformed the liturgy. Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI allowed limited and time-bound exceptions, mainly for the elderly and sick. Sadly, this pastoral concession subsequently formed a rallying point for the ideology of a small group of intransigent Catholics who deny and indeed ridicule the authority of Vatican II and the papacy (cf your use of terms such as "illegitimately", "justice", "unconscionable pontifical pillage", "madness", "desecration of all things Catholic", "progressive Marxists", "effluence of Vatican II", etc), and so Pope Francis has acted to contain this tendency and invite the putative schismatics back into unity. Whether or not he will succeed depends largely on them, but if your position is representative, it's not looking hopeful.

>98 brone:

Please note that Thomas Cranmer's "new mass" was the Anglican mass. Trying to compare this with an authentic reform of the liturgy carried out within and by the Catholic Church is disingenuous, to say the least. The current universal rite of the Catholic Church was the result of a near-unanimous vote by all the bishops of the world during the Second Vatican Council, and was promulgated by Pope Paul VI. In the same way that Pope Pius V imposed uniformity of worship in 1570, with a small number of restricted exceptions, Popes John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis have also striven for unity, again with limited "extraordinary" exceptions which are subject to restrictions imposed by the Church authorities. There is no comparison with the situation of Thomas Cranmer, who was part of a breakaway church - unless a few disaffected Catholics who don't like the Catholic mass are planning to break away and form their own new church using an older form of the mass? Church history and tradition do not support your case, I'm afraid.

Wasn't sure where to post this, but here seems as good a place as any. While it's not yet clear what motivated this attack on an archbishop and the unconnected murder of a priest, the amount of hate speech levelled against senior church figures in north America, even by members of their own church and even here in the Christianity group on LT, surely doesn't help. This sort of language can incite an already disturbed person and push them over the edge to commit such acts of violence.

80-year-old Man Tries to Kill Catholic Archbishop after Sunday Mass in Mexican Cathedral (ACI Africa)

An 80-year-old man wielding a knife tried to kill Archbishop Faustino Armendáriz of Durango, Mexico, on May 21. The attack took place in the cathedral sacristy after the Sunday noon Mass. The man was later arrested by municipal authorities... For the archbishop of Durango, “it was attempted murder,” and he acknowledged that it was “frightening” and “saddening.” Far from holding a grudge against his attacker, the prelate pointed out that while the man tried to harm him, he prayed “that God would bless him.” “It seems to me that it’s also an opportunity to show solidarity with the people who are suffering,” the archbishop said, lamenting that “we are vulnerable and that can happen to anyone” in a country that suffers from the “relativization of justice” as well as insecurity and violence. “This is part of all this lacerated social fabric, and above all the lack of moral values and situations that our people without a doubt are experiencing in anonymity,” he pointed out... In a separate incident a day later, Father Javier García Villafaña, an Augustinian priest, was shot to death in his car... there have been nine Catholic priests murdered since the current president of Mexico, Andrés Manuel López Obrador, took office at the end of 2018...

Mexico is not the only north American country which currently suffers from a “relativization of justice”, "insecurity and violence", a "lacerated social fabric" and "lack of moral values".

>103 brone:

Have you got a little confused here? An angry professor attacked a journalist with a machete for simply doing their job and asking questions, and you consider her suspension and the police investigation of this attempted murder to be "persecution of Catholics"?

>105 brone: fidelity to the Papacy

You have an odd way of showing fidelity to the Papacy!

From the lectionary used by Catholics, Anglicans and Presbyterians for today's feast of the Holy Trinity:

"We wish you joy; try to grow perfect; encourage one another; have a common mind and live in peace, and the God of love and peace will be with you... The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Corinthians 13:11, 13)

Some translations say "agree with one another" rather than "encourage one another".

>110 brone:

Yes, I think many people of our generation do struggle with the ubiquity of mobile phones these days. I use one, and recognise its usefulness, but I can't say I'm very comfortable with it. I often think the use of the mobile phone has developed quicker than the etiquette or good manners that should be associated with it.

But in defence of your clergy, I used to be rather surprised at people using their phones during mass, until I realised that many of them have the lectionary or the mass text on their phone, as well as the whole bible, as I now have. Likewise the Daily Office. The full breviary is quite heavy to tote around, especially when travelling on light aircraft with a very strict weight limit, and I used to carry a very slim volume with only the basic morning, evening and night prayers, but now I can carry the whole thing on my phone at no extra weight. And it automatically gives me all the proper readings and texts of the day in one place without having to skip between different parts of the breviary - I've never possessed a hard copy breviary which had enough ribbons in it for all the configurations! I've also found myself looking up the words of hymns on my phone during mass so I can join in when there are no hymn books.

>112 brone:

You omitted to give credit to Peter Kwasniewski and the One Peter Five website from which you copied and pasted this quote. 1 Peter 5 is an inspiring chapter of scripture, and vv 8-9, "Keep sober and alert, because your enemy the devil is on the prowl like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. Stand up to him, strong in faith!" is amongst my favourite readings from compline.

When the Church rediscovers the secret of her youth

This is precisely what the Church did as part of the reform of the liturgy after Vatican II, going back to her "youth" to remove some of the accretions which had accumulated over recent centuries (particularly the last five hundred years since the previous major reform of the liturgy), and to reclaim some of the "secrets" from earlier times which had dropped away.

>114 brone: the doctrine of the Co- Redemption and Mary Most Holy described as "nonsense"

The co-redemptive role of Mary can be understood in different ways. By giving birth to the Redeemer, she obviously cooperated (and indeed played a crucial role) in his redemptive mission. As the conservative National Catholic Reisgter puts it, "Co-redemption doesn’t mean an equal sharing in Christ’s redemptive work — as if he somehow needed our help. Rather, it means that God allows us to unite whatever meager sacrifices, prayers, or works we can muster to his perfect sacrifice." Or the Traditional Catechism website: "In fact, all of us are co redeemers in some way". So some interpretations of it are perfectly orthodox, others are indeed "nonsense". The concept of Mary as Co-Redemptrix (and Co-Mediatrix) is not dogma, and recent popes, not only Francis, have avoided using it.

>116 brone:

Yes, I understand that there are some Catholics who believe that Mary should have the title Co-Redemptrix. But that doesn't alter the fact that this not a dogma of the Church and, given the trajectory of popes since Pope Pius XII rejected it, is unlikely to become one.

Pope Leo III died in the year 816. I suspect that whatever he was opposing in that era bears little relation to whatever you appear to be opposing today. Or are you referring to Pope Pius X's 1907 encyclical Pascendi Dominici Gregis On the Doctrine of the Modernists? Modernism was a philosophical, artistic and religious movement from the late 19th and early 20th centuries, trying to take account of new contemporary realities such as industrialisation, urbanisation, technology and modern warfare. It is understandable that Pope Pius X was cautious about this new development, but a historical document such as PDG needs to be read through a hermeneutical lens in order to discern its applicability more than a century later in a different contemporary reality.

>121 brone:

A hundred years ago what could they possibly know about things which hadn't been invented yet, social movements which didn't yet exist, scientific knowledge that hadn't yet been discovered, questions which hadn't yet been asked, problems which hadn't yet arisen? We have the body of our faith, expressed through Scripture and Tradition, which is examined by theologians, seeking deeper understanding of our faith, and from which the competent authorities, the magisterium consisting of the pope and the bishops affirmed by the sensus fidei, discern how the Church should face these new challenges. This is nothing new, and the Church has been doing it since the earliest times.

>114 brone: ff

Planned Marian Congress to Make Salesian Shrine “heart of Marian devotion in East Africa" (ACI Africa)

The Marian Congress that members of the Salesians of Don Bosco (SDB) in the East Africa Province (AFP) are organizing is to culminate in having their Nairobi-based shrine “the heart of Marian devotion in East Africa," the Salesian Communication Delegate for the four-day has said... to make Mary Help of Christians Shrine a place of reference for those devoted to the Blessed Virgin Mary in the countries of East Africa. The planned Marian Congress, Fr. Sebastian said, aims at spreading "the devotion to our Blessed Mother, for the Christians to grow more fond of the Blessed Mother and follow her vocation... Mary's vocation is very similar to the vocation of every Christian... She said yes and we are also invited to say yes to our own vocation"...

>126 brone:

This seems to be a fairly narrow perspective from a small section of US Catholicism. That religious orders "haven't had a vocation in decades" may be the perception there, but certainly not globally. "Priests' behaviour has been the subject of scandal for decades" is true, but I would amend it to read "for centuries". This is not a new phenomenon; what is new is that it is no longer being covered up the way it used to be, so we can now all see it for what it is. As for "we can go back to the way things were", no we can't. You can never go back, only forwards, building on and learning from the past, the Tradition, but the world changes and the Church must live and work effectively within the current situation. And why do you want to go back to the tenth century, the time of Pope John XIII? Why not the time of Jesus, or the time of the Council of Trent and its mass which you love so much?

>128 brone:

Well, no. A number of European countries were evangelised with other forms of the mass, including the Celtic, Gallic and Sarum rites. In England the changeover to the Roman rite was very controversial, culminating in the Synod of Whitby in the seventh century CE, presided over by the Abbess Hild(a). So your distress at the phasing out of an "old" mass is nothing new; every time the Church moved on to a new rite, there were people who mourned the loss of the antecedent ones. And life goes on.

Edited to add: Perhaps "some in eastern Europe" should be replaced by "most", and include some in western Europe, eg Greece. Also worth mentioning that north Africa, including Ethiopia, as well as the Middle East and even parts of India, were first evangelised by what we would now call "eastern" rites.

>130 brone:

Well there I and many theologians and bishops (and indeed popes) who know far more about liturgy than I do would humbly beg to differ with him. There is a clear continuity between the Tridentine and the current missals in both structure and content: opening prayers, confiteor, kyrie, gloria, scripture readings, homily, credo, offertory, sanctus, eucharistic prayer (which is still structured to contain praise, thanksgiving, intercession, epiclesis, anamnesis and doxology), pater noster, agnus dei, domine non sum dignus, communion, closing prayers. Eucharistic Prayer I is basically the old eucharistic prayer. Some superfluous accretions and repetitions have been removed, as instructed by Sacrosanctum concilium, and some older material has been reclaimed or restored, eg Eucharistic Prayer 2 and the sign of peace, but it is still recognisably the same liturgy.

I'd be interested to read that quote in context. Could you cite an exact reference to help me find it, please?

>132 brone:

By "Bergoglio synod" do you mean the Synod on Synodality, the latest Synod of the Roman Catholic Church since Pope Paul VI instituted regular Synods in 1965 as a direct response to the desire of the Council Fathers to keep alive the positive spirit engendered by the conciliar experience of Vatican II? And who do you mean by "youse guys"? Isn't that rather a divisive term, implying that in the Church there are divisions, "us" and "youse"?

But yes, retired bishops can be quite outspoken as they no longer have anything to lose. I recall a bishops' conference plenary meeting which I attended in one African country where they were discussing how to get more priestly vocations, and the cardinal asked if anyone had any suggestions. A retired bishop, a humble and spiritual man not usually given to great interventions, raised his hand and said, "Yes. Ordain married men!" There was a stunned silence, then the cardinal muttered, "I meant practical suggestions!"

An interesting little mention of the Tridentine Latin mass in the obituary of famous Irish singer Sinéad O'Connor, may she rest in peace (link).

In one of the stranger turns of her life she was ordained a priest in the Latin Tridentine Church, an independent Catholic church, not in communion with Rome. Despite her disdain for the Church hierarchy, O'Connor always maintained she was a practising Christian and a devout Catholic...

Maybe the self-proclaimed "traditionalist" Tridentine Latin mass schismatics are more open-minded than I had given them credit for!

>135 John5918: But then she also apparently converted to Islam a few years ago.

>136 MsMixte: Truly interfaith!

Back to one of the key elements in the title of this thread, the Latin Mass (which actually means the Latin Tridentine Rite Mass).

Is it too late for liturgical reconciliation? (Tablet)

I share Benedict’s view that the older form is ritually richer than the reformed version of the liturgy. But the fact that it has its own inbuilt weaknesses, as he well knew, is something that is rarely admitted today by its enthusiasts. There were solid reasons why the Fathers of the Council, in an astonishingly swift display of unanimity, called for a reform, even though they themselves had been spiritually nourished all their lives by the “Latin Mass”. In practice, as they knew from experience, there was considerable ritualism – casuistic/legalistic rubricism to be precise – that led some priests into a crippling scrupulosity. As a young adult growing up in Cork I was aware of the impoverished participation in the Mass on the part of the lay faithful. For many decades before the opening of the Second Vatican Council, various ways had been sought to promote better participation, such as publishing Latin Missals for the faithful with a parallel vernacular translation. Accretions to the rituals of the Mass introduced in the Baroque period no longer chime with contemporary culture: at best they are theatrical, at worst alienating. Slavish adherence to the rubrics can induce mere ritualism. The truly magnificent celebration of High Mass and Solemn Pontifical Mass risked (and risks) becoming a spectacle – supremely beautiful but still a spectacle. The ritual richness of the TLM can, understandably, also foster elitism and a sense of superiority – and not the required humility, reverence and gratitude that is of the essence of the celebration of the Holy Eucharist in either form. Pope Benedict’s hope was not that the reformed form of the Mass (whether celebrated in the vernacular or in Latin) would be replaced by a return to the pre-Vatican II liturgy but that it would learn from – and be enriched by – the intrinsic dynamism of pre-conciliar rituals, which more powerfully evoked its sacred character... But Benedict also hoped that the adherents of the older rituals might in turn learn from the reformed ritual – not least in terms of its noble simplicity (when celebrated with strict adherence to the reduced rubrics), its dialogical dynamic, and its liberating emphasis on the Word of God...

>139 brone: As the great Winston Churchill said with charity in a {e}ulogy of Neville Chamberlain

I've always thought history has been unkind to Chamberlain. Churchill's magnanimous eulogy included "Chamberlain had the most 'noble and benevolent instincts of the human heart, the love of peace, the toil for peace, the strife for peace, the pursuit of peace, even at great peril'" (link). He was courageous in his belief in a nonviolent resolution to Germany's expansionist agenda even when he was ridiculed, and ultimately events conspired against a peaceful end. Would that more politicians today were as willing to speak out against the prevailing populist tide of militarism.

He was also faithful to one of the key principles of classic "just war" doctrine, namely that to be considered "justified", a war must meet several criteria, not only the single criterion of having a "just" cause. One of those criteria is that war must be a last resort after all other means have been tried and failed. That was one of the key reasons why Pope John Paul II opposed the second Gulf War in 2003, because there were a number of other options which had not yet been allowed to reach their conclusion. Chamberlain certainly went the extra mile to ensure that all peaceful options were exhausted.

>141 brone:

I wasn't aware of that derivation of mall. I think the Mall and Pall Mall in London derive their name from a French croquet-like game. But I understand your love for trees. I've seen some pretty spectacular trees in various parts of Africa, but we live in windy and fairly dry savanna bush country, where the main trees are thorn trees. We've planted a couple of hundred trees, partly to act as a wind break and possibly create a slightly lusher micro habitat, but also because we'd love to be surrounded by trees. They're growing very slowly because of lack of water (and due to being eaten by eland during the recent drought!) No sound of running water here, but we have the natural sound of the wind most of the year. We also have spectacular views across the Great Rift Valley. On a really clear day (only twice in the last six years!) we can see Mount Kilimanjaro from just up the road, and that's over a hundred miles away. I love the rural existence.

Since a lot of the conversation here revolves around religious terms like "traditionalist" and "progressive", and political labels such as "conservative" and "leftist", I thought this little reflection by Catholic Franciscan Fr Richard Rohr might be of relevance.

Prophets Are Radicals and Traditionalists (both at the same time!)

the “both/and” nature of the prophetic charism and call...

The prophets were both radicals and traditionalists. They were radical believers in God and radical lovers of God’s people. We can even say they were radical traditionalists. Their penetrating insight saw into the heart of their own tradition, the tradition that went back to YHWH’s covenant with Israel, the tradition that went further back than their recent religious institutions. They reminded their people of God’s faithfulness to that covenant, and they called them to be faithful to the God who gave it to them.¹

The prophetic gift or “charism” is rare, I believe, because it demands two seemingly opposite things—radical traditionalism and shocking iconoclasm at the same time. Normally, we would think these two things would cancel each other out. Most people cannot imagine that both can coexist, tame, and educate one another.

The “radical traditionalism” we see in the prophets is very different from what we see today in many social activists, who are often embarrassed to use words like God, faith, surrender, or trust. To put together opposites such as radical and traditional demands a level of human maturity, groundedness, spiritual intelligence, a readiness not to be liked, and a willingness to be persecuted.²

The Hebrew prophets did not care if others looked on them as conservative or liberal. They only cared about being faithful to God. To some, they looked like “conservatives” preaching old-time religion. To others, they looked like “liberals” questioning the status quo. The same is true of prophets in our day. Many people turned against Martin Luther King Jr. (1929–1968) when he spoke out against racism, poverty, and war; yet he was only being faithful to the call God had given him to preach the gospel of freedom. Antiwar prophets are labeled as radicals even when they call us back to the ancient tradition of Christian pacifism. Mother Teresa of Calcutta (1910–1997) was admired by many conservatives, and yet her radical care for the poor is rooted in the same love of Christ as the gospel poverty of Dorothy Day (1897–1980), who was hated by conservatives.

The prophets, past and present, first call us into that experience of God’s love which radically alters our vision of ourselves and our outlook on life. Too often we are concerned about petty things that in the end do not really matter. What the prophets are saying is this: Let God do something good for us. Let God lead. Enter into the experience of God’s presence and love. We shouldn’t be surprised if we find ourselves falling in love with our tradition and wanting to radically change the way things are. Entering into the vision and love of God alters our perception of reality. ³


1 Adapted from Richard Rohr and Joseph Martos, The Great Themes of Scripture: Old Testament (Cincinnati, OH: St. Anthony Messenger Press, 1987), 79.

2 Adapted from Richard Rohr, Way of the Prophet (Albuquerque, NM: Center for Action and Contemplation, 1994), audio recording. No longer available for purchase.

3 Rohr, Great Themes: Old Testament, 80–81.

In this regard Pope Francis can truly be said to be a prophet for our times, faithful to the Tradition of Church doctrine but radical in his pastoral love and mercy, a "radical believer in God and a radical lover of God’s people".

>147 brone:

I believe much of this post comes from here and/or here.

The document referred to was not secretive, nor a "lobby", but was a well known and public pact produced three weeks before the end of the Second Vatican Council (ie it was a result of, not an influence on, the Council) in 1965 and eventually signed by 500 Catholic bishops, which included living a lifestyle that is materially similar to their parishioners (eg living in an ordinary house rather than a palace, not going out for expensive meals, and making use of public transit), not being called by prestigious titles, not holding bank accounts or real estate in their own names, entrusting financial administration of their dioceses to lay people, advocating civil and international policies that would “permit the poor masses to overcome their misery”, and being open to all people, whatever their religion. This is one of many documents which have been shared with Synod participants; the Synod is, after all, a listening process.

The full text of the Pact of the Catacombs can be found here. It's always good to have a glance at primary sources rather than subjective and incomplete references in secondary sources.

>149 brone:

I've just re-read the America Magazine article to which you refer and as far as I can see at no point does it say that "the text the pope gave the members on Oct 12th was secret". It certainly wasn't very secret if cardinals were showing it to journalists. But although, as America Magazine said, the Pact might have been "little-known (at least among Americans)", and although it did not have as broad an impact on the Church as you appear to believe and indeed it faded into obscurity for a while, it has in fact been in the public domain for some years now and is quite widely known within the universal Church. It was originally signed by 42 bishops, but eventually by more than 500 - I'm struggling to find an online record of all their names, which would be interesting. Many were from Latin America, but there were Europeans and at least one north American.

The rest of your post is the sort of wild speculation which the Synod is trying to avoid as it tries to remain grounded in the reality of the Church, her Scriptures and her Tradition in today's world, rather than dystopian fantasies about Marxists.

Edited to add: there's an interesting article here about how "the 50th anniversary of the pact led to new research and interest", noting that "God with his grace gave us a pope like Francis, who without having signed the pact, already led this kind of life and had experience of a simple church, a poor church, a church very close to the poor." The late Italian Bishop Luigi Bettazzi, one of the original signatories, recalled that "the commitments were personal and individual, not the start of some organised movement". Indeed far from your alarmist scenario of a highly organised Marxist plot, the bishop added, "There was no coordination" or follow-up, "and slowly over time, it was a bit forgotten." I had the privilege of meeting Bishop Bettazzi before his recent death. A humble but impressive bishop, even in his nineties as he was when I met him. RIP.

>151 brone: The Synod is in a word a kind of abstract meeting when things like these are going on in the world, as again in Nigeria hundreds of abductions

And yet in Nigeria, and indeed throughout Africa and the Global South where most of the Catholics in the world live, the Synod has been met with great enthusiasm.

>153 brone:

Just for the record, seeking "the common good" is not Marxism, it is well-established Catholic doctrine. You might want to look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church ##1905-1912, for example. Note that Catholic doctrine also supports the right to private property, so your statement that "you will own nothing" is downright false, cf ##2402-2406.

As for the UN, it is not a global government, it is a voluntary association of every government in the world, which can only take decisions based on a majority, and which does a huge amount of good in both the diplomatic and humanitarian fields. That is its strength. Its weakness is that five nations out of 190+ have veto powers, which often restricts it from meaningful action.

>155 brone:

For the record, I believe you are quoting California Catholic Daily. Do you not think they deserve credit and visibility for their work, nor whatever advertising revenue they receve when people click on their page?

Two comments. The first is that you are once again conflating homosexuality and sexual abuse. The two are not the same thing. The crime, scandal and sin of someone such as Cardinal McCarrick was that he was a predatory sexual abuser, not that he was homosexual. Most people are not sexual abusers, regardless of whether they are hetero- or homosexual.

Secondly, I have not yet seen any full official statement on why Bishop Strickland has been removed from his position. There is nothing new in the Church removing a bishop who consistently ignores and indeed speaks out against the papacy and the magisterium of the Church, as Bishop Strickland clearly has done, regardless of how many religious processions he has participated in. But as BBC notes, the Vatican said that the decision to fire him "came after an apostolic visitation ordered by the Pope last June in the Diocese of Tyler". It is reported that the investigation also looked at the handling of financial affairs at the diocese.

>157 brone: California CD never heard of em

Fair enough. Maybe it's repeated in a number of sources. Would you care to enlighten us as to where you found it? I have cited the source for the material I have quoted.

when a Cardinal of an Arch Diocese is a serial abuser of young men, he is an abuser

Yes. And when a person is a serial abuser of young women, they are an abuser. It's got nothing to do with their sexual orientation. Most people of any and all sexual orientations are not abusers.

there is nothing new in the church removing a bishop

While it is by no means common, cases in the last twenty years have included Emmanuel Milingo, Raymond Lahey, Józef Wesołowski, and of course Theodore McCarrick and now Joseph Strickland. There are others who were asked to resign and who did so rather than waiting to be dismissed.

>160 brone: for political reasons

It seems more likely that some within the US Catholic Church appear to be supporting or at least condoning an extreme right wing political ideology which is at odds with Church teaching, while at the same time entering into overt public attacks on the authority of the papacy and the teaching of the Church. Few popes would have tolerated this for as long as Francis has done before taking some limited measures to redress the balance.

>162 brone: the State increasingly is attempting to control the Church

Which state are you talking about? There are more than 190 states in the world, all different, and the Church has a significant presence in most of them.

>163 John5918:

The Church is not a political power and, at least since the days of Prince Bishops and the Inquisition, does not have any "means of enforcement", no "powers of coercion", no "compulsion", and indeed I don't think we would want her to. The Church relies on moral persuasion, and indeed on loving both one's neigbours and one's enemies. As Stalin reputedly asked, how many (military) divisions does the pope have? And yet the Church has outlasted Stalin and any number of other political regimes in history, and indeed played its role, through Pope John Paul II and many other people, in the demise of the short-lived (around seventy years) Soviet Union.

Edited to add: The Holy Father has drawn attention to the suffering of Christians on the feast of St Stephen, the first Christian martyr.

Pope Francis: After 2,000 Years the Persecution of Christians Continues (ACI Africa)

During Tuesday’s Angelus on the occasion of the feast of St. Stephen — the first Christian martyr — Pope Francis renewed his call for peace and brought attention to the persecution that Christians are facing around the world. “Today, 2,000 years later, unfortunately we see that the persecution continues: There is persecution of Christians,” the Holy Father said to the faithful gathered in St. Peter’s Square. “There are still those, and there are many of them, who suffer and die to bear witness to Jesus, just as there are those who are penalized at various levels for the fact of acting in a way consistent with the Gospel, and those who strive every day to be faithful, without ado, to their good duties, while the world jeers and preaches otherwise”... “Do I care about and pray for those who, in various parts of the world, still suffer and die for the faith today? So many who are murdered for their faith. And in turn, do I try to bear witness to the Gospel consistently, with meekness and confidence? Do I believe that the seed of goodness will bear fruit even if I do not see immediate results?” the pope asked...

A beautiful little extract in Latin from a high mass in Notre Dame de Paris: https://youtu.be/eFXCTUnP-4o

>167 brone: classic Arabic which is niether spoken or understood by the Arab peoples

As a (now rather rusty!) Arabic speaker, I would beg to disagree with you there. While it's true that classical Arabic is not spoken, nevertheless most educated Arabs would understand it. The Holy Qu'ran is written in classical Arabic, as is Arabic poetry and classical literature. Newspapers and other literature are written in Modern Standard Arabic which is a slightly adapted form of the classical Arabic. Both are generally referred to by the single term al-ʻArabīyah al-Fuṣḥā (العربية الفصحى).

can hardly call the vernacular Mass a success

I'm trying to work out what your evidence is for saying that. The Mass is being celebrated in the vernacular all over the world in hundreds of languages, and millions of Catholics are attending mass in their own language. All are perfectly content with it, except for a tiny handful in the USA and one or two other countries. I have spoken to a number of bishops from various African countries asking whether there is any interest at all in the Latin mass from their people, and they just look at me blankly before answering with an emphatic negative.

Article 54 of the Constitution of Sacred Liturgy

This article states that "Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them", thus reinforcing #36, "the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites". In my experience, it is not uncommon for parts of the mass to be sung in Latin - gloria, sanctus, agnus dei - and Greek - kyrie eleison. Certain Latin hymns and chants are also popular.

Edited to add: Here's a beautiful rendering of the Salve regina, a hymn which is often sung in Latin at the end of Night Prayer (Compline) from the breviary.

And here is the credo which we used to sing when I were a lad. This one is from a papal Christmas mass in 2010, but I must say it was sung more lustily in our English parish church back in the pre-Vatican II days, as the pubs stayed open until midnight on Christmas Eve, and a large part of the congregation would have rolled straight from the pub into the church (there was even a zebra crossing to cross the road safely!) ready for a good old ding dong (Cockney ryming slang for sing song)!

And the introit sung in Latin at the papal Christmas mass a mere two years ago.

Edited again to add: Pater Noster said/sung by some of the Popes between 1939 and 2013 can be heard here.

It really is difficult to understand why you say Latin has disappeared from the mass, when there are videos of Latin masses all over the internet. Here is an Advent Mass in Rome in 2022.

>169 brone: latin Mass and they must get permission

I believe you're wrong there. As far as I know there is no requirement to get permission to celebrate the mass in Latin. As I frequently point out to you, the normative text of the mass is in Latin, and all vernacular versions are derived from this Latin text. It's certainly true that very few priests can speak Latin, but that is probably due to the lack of appetite for Latin, not to any conspiracy to ban it, and the fact that there are very few parishes which use Latin is again due to the lack of appetite for it. There is no "suppression" of Latin as a language for mass. Where there are restrictions is on the use of an antecedent rite in place of the universal rite of the Church, not the use of Latin per se. You don't cite a link to Cardinal Cupich of Chicago's "guidelines", so we're not able to read them and see what exactly they refer to. I would like to read them.

Edited to add: I believe there are over 17,000 parishes in the USA, and if 561 have Latin masses that's around 3.3%. Once again that suggests how little appetite there is for the Latin mass in the USA.

One of my all time favourite chants in the mass is the Exsultet, here sung in Latin at the Easter Vigil in St Peter's on 23rd April 2011. "Exsultet! Rejoice!... This is the night, when Christ broke the prison bars of death and rose victorious from the underworld... O truly blessed night..." When sung well, as it is here, it is magnificent.

>172 brone: I wonder if... ever had a religious experience... Not the God of Philosophers and of learned men

I don't think it's about modern "progressives" or "conservatives". The creative tension between the immanence and transcendence of God, between the spirit and the law, between the mystics (or contemplatives) and the legalists, between the pastors and the dogmatists, between the activists and the philosophers, between the experiential and the intellectual, between apophatic and cataphatic theologies, is as old as humanity. It's found throughout both testaments of Christian scripture and throughout Christian history, as well as in other faiths (Islam comes to mind). At various points in Christian history one or the other has dominated, usually to the detriment of the faith, but what is needed is a creative balance rather than polarisation.

On a macro level, I think the Catholic Church is coming out of a long period, perhaps 400 years or so, when the intellectual and dogmatic was over-emphasised, and there has now been a new re-emphasis on what you call "religious experience", or experience of God. I think of recent exemplars such as Thomas Merton, John Main, Antony de Mello, Gerard Hughes, Richard Rohr, Bede Griffiths, Ilia Delio, Thomas Berry, Dorothee Soelle and many others, as well as a rediscovery of some of the great 14th century Christian mystics such as Julian of Norwich, Theresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, Hildegard of Bingen and the anonymous The Cloud of Unknowing, and of course the earlier 3rd century Desert Fathers and Mothers. Incidentally that list shows that it is not only "learned men", but also learned and holy women. There has also been a new emphasis on praxis theology, that is theology developed from the practical experience of God amongst the ordinary Christians, although I know that you don't like this form of theology, which has led to various forms of liberation theology, and that you apparently prefer the intellectual systematic theology of the philosphers and learned men (and in this case it usually is men and not women!) rather than the experiential form. But as I say, I hope it will not become a polarised and ideological culture war, as the Church needs both.

At a micro level, I have worked as a spiritual director, and yes, I have encountered many priests, sisters and probably some bishops who have either never had or else have lost the experience of God. They may be very good at some of their pastoral duties, and particularly at intellectual pursuits including theology and the liturgy, but no longer have any relationship with God. They are spiritually empty, which not only hinders them in their ministry but often also leaves them with a feeling of guilt and inadequacy. Some have found (or rekindled) their relationship with God through spiritual counselling and pastoral support, others through leaving the institutional priesthood, while some just continue as burned out husks. All need our prayers and support, not ideological criticism.

>174 brone:

Once again, a lot of misinformation, and a very pessimistic view of the Church and the world. What exactly is "the current crop of heretics, Jesuits and the homosexual empire" which "will not hold sway"? Sounds like a potentially homophobic conspiracy theory to me.

a herectical letter and a herectical book

You do like the word "heretical", but things are defined as heretical by the Church, not by individual dissenters. A letter from the Vatican Dicastery for the Doctrine of Faith is not heretical, even if some bishops disagree with it. A book published decades ago by a young priest may have been unwise and open to misinterpreation (I think he himself has described it as such, "cancelled" it a long time ago, and said he would not write it now) but has never been declared heretical.

insisting we contaminate our Churches with secular public ceremonies

Did you not read the letter? It clearly and specifically insists on precisely the opposite, stating in response to questions from some German and other European bishops that irregular unions cannot be blessed in public liturgical ceremonies.

>176 brone:

Obviously I disagree with you on this, as do the Church teaching authorities.

We've Been Misreading a Major Law of Physics For The Last 300 Years (Science Alert)

Writing in Latin, Newton outlined three universal principles describing how the motion of objects is governed in our Universe, which have been translated, transcribed, discussed and debated at length. But according to a philosopher of language and mathematics, we might have been interpreting Newton's precise wording of his first law of motion slightly wrong all along. Virginia Tech philosopher Daniel Hoek wanted to "set the record straight" after discovering what he describes as a "clumsy mistranslation" in the original 1729 English translation of Newton's Latin Principia. Based on this translation, countless academics and teachers have since interpreted Newton's first law of inertia to mean an object will continue moving in a straight line or remain at rest unless an outside force intervenes. It's a description that works well until you appreciate external forces are constantly at work, something Newton would surely have considered in his wording. Revisiting the archives, Hoek realized this common paraphrasing featured a misinterpretation that flew under the radar until 1999, when two scholars picked up on the translation of one Latin word that had been overlooked: quatenus, which means "insofar", not unless...

An interesting little example of the pitfalls of translating a dead language. Much of early Christian teaching and theology is in Latin, and of course all editions of the bible are translations of earlier now-dead languages, and in many cases translations of translations. I wonder how many more "clumsy mistranslations" are still to be dealt with?

Here is a recording of the Salve Regina, which I think remains one of the more commonly sung Latin hymns. It is one of the Marian hymns sung after Night Prayer (Compline), and appears in Latin in most versions of the Catholic breviary. When I say compline privately I often sing Salve Regina in Latin to myself.

Incidentally, mass is celebrated in Latin at 10.30 am every weekday morning in Westminster Cathedral, the preeminent Catholic Cathedral in England, according to the Cathedral Diary.

Here is the Missa de Angelis. This is the one that we normally sang - indeed in those days I think many of us thought this was the only sung Latin mass.

>179 John5918:

Another beautiful rendering of the Salve Regina, to the good old tune.

>183 brone: Holy Mass in Latin (first time in living memory)

The Holy Mass in Latin is celebrated regularly in the Vatican, for example, and on every weekday in the pre-eminent cathedral in England and Wales, Westminster Cathedral in London, so that claim abut "living memory" is inaccurate. What is not celebrated very often is the mass according to the old antecedent rite, which has been superseded.

the Mass celebrated by my ancestors going back to Roman times

At one level that's true of every Catholic mass according to every rite and in every language. The mass is the mass. Some of the forms have changed, but the basic substance of the mass has remained unchanged, and to believe otherwise contradicts some basic Catholic teachings. However if you are claiming that the form of the antecedent rite which you like to champion is identical with the mass of "Roman times", however you define that era, then I think you will find that history does not support your case. There have been many developments and changes in the form of the mass, and many different ancient rites, including the eastern, Sarum, Gallic, Celtic, Durham, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Pre-Tridentine and north African rites. And why limit yourself to "Roman times"? Why not celebrate mass in its earliest forms, such as the house masses of the early Church, long before Latin became the language of the western Church?

>185 brone:

Well, I certainly can't agree that "there were two councils one of which was hijacked". Just look at the record of how many of the world's bishops supported each of the teaching documents of Vatican II. There was an overwhelming majority of the bishops in harmony with their pope (two popes, in fact, as Vatican II overlapped both John XXIII and Paul VI). And Vatican II's teaching was eagerly and warmly greeted by bishops, priests and religious, and as it filtered down to the laity, it was also welcomed and/or simply accepted as Catholic teaching. I was a teenager and an altar server - I can remember. No hijacking there.

As for "the essence of the Church", I see no evidence that it has been altered. It is our understanding of it which deepens and thus, in a sense, alters. We currently understand very few of the mysteries of our faith exactly the same way as they were understood in the early Church, or the mediaeval Church, or the Tridentine Church, or the 19th century Church of Vatican I - but the essence has not altered.

>187 brone:

Indeed, and Sacrosanctum concilium also promotes Latin "forcefully", which is why the liturgy is celebrated in Latin regularly in the Vatican, in national cathedrals such as Westminster in England, and elsewhere. There is no restriction on celebrating mass in Latin, although it has to be said there is generally not much appetite for it as most people seem to prefer praying in their own language. You often conflate the antecedent rite which is no longer celebrated, with Latin mass according to the Church's universal rite which is still celebrated regularly and which is still the normative language of the liturgy from which all modern vernacular translations are derived.

>189 brone:

Worth remembering, as you often remind us with reference to Pope Francis, that off the cuff comments by Church leaders do not constitute infallible doctrine.

Also worth remembering that although Latin does hold an honoured place in the western Roman Catholic Church, it is not the language of Jesus (or of God), it is not the original language of the Church, and it is not the only ancient language used by the Church (as Orthodox churches which are as old as the Catholic Church have developed on a parallel path with different ancient and honoured languages, and the Roman Church still uses Greek at least in the kyrie eleison).

The use of Latin in the mass was a matter of Church discipline, not doctrine, in the same way that compulsory clerical celibacy is. They are both open to change, as indeed the latter has also changed by ordaining large numbers of married former Anglican priests in several western countries, including yours and mine.

And finally, while Latin does hold a special place in the development and tradition of the Roman Catholic Church in Europe, where it was a common language of elite educated society for many centuries, most of the world's Catholics no longer come from that European tradition, so holding on to a dead European language makes no sense to them. The Church leaders who reportedly laughed could not have imagined that a mere sixty years later we would be approaching the point where the majority of the world's Catholics speak African rather than European languages, and where Christianity on the continent whose societies and cultures still bear some ever-fainter traces of the Roman Empire would be in decline whilst the vibrant Church in Africa and other continents is on the rise.

>191 brone:

There were not two councils, "Liberal or Conservative", but one, although as with all previous councils there are a few dissidents who are uncomfortable with the reforms. As we say in the Creed every Sunday, we are One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. You are correct that Vatican II was not fighting "heresy", but it was a response to the situation whereby, as you also say, millions of Catholics were leaving the Church. So the Church had to "read the signs of the times", as the Council says in Gaudium et spes #4, and formulate a response to the new situation in the world. Sixty years is a very short time in the history of the Church and some of the earlier councils took much longer than that to be fully understood, accepted and implemented. Our task as Catholics is to understand and implement the Council's teaching rather than snipe at it.

I'm not aware of the "new" things "most of which have been rejected", unless you're referring to a few early liturgical experiments which were usually done without the authority of the Vatican or the local bishop, and which fortunately soon fell by the wayside. You and I agree that there has been and still is some appalling liturgy, although you appear to believe that this only occurred after Vatican II whereas I also remember appalling liturgies in the pre-conciliar Church, so you'll no doubt be pleased with the Holy Father's latest call for better liturgy (link). I believe it saddens him that many Catholics have to endure poor liturgy due to lack of catechesis and liturgical education, just as it saddens him that a few Catholics have chosen the liturgy as a base to oppose reform.

>190 John5918:

An interesting little snippet which I only learned in passing today from this article. It was an African pope, Victor I, who was the first pope to celebrate the mass and write official documents in Latin rather than Greek at the end of the 2nd century CE.

>194 brone:

Does that really matter? An adminstrative issue, now corrected. Can you cite a source for this little snippet so we can follow up on it?

>197 John5918:

And the link to this issue?

>198 brone:

With all due respect, I think your post mischaracterises some of the issues that you mention.

The document you refer to is not "a landmark victory for homosexual catholics and their advocates", as it explicitly restates traditional Church teaching on marriage and rejects same sex unions. If anything it is a rebuff to those European bishops who sought change in that respect. But even the language of "victory" is inappropriate. We're talking about discernment of issues of pastoral care, not political contests or military campaigns where there might be a "victory" or "defeat". You deny "waging culture wars", yet it seems that some of your language is that of a war.

I don't think anyone is denying that the document has been greeted by some as "confusing, ambiguous, and questionable", in part because of the way it was received by the press and social media of all stripes. I have not seen any negative response "to any reasoned or honest criticism", and I am aware of many senior churchmen who voice such opinions. But they do so without attacking the pope or trying to coopt the document to their own agendas; "speaking the truth with love", to use your words. An example is the African bishops, as I have explained a number of times. They sent the president of their continental bishops' conference to Rome where he met the pope and Cardinal Fernandez, expressed their concerns, discussed the matter amicably, and issued a joint statement which affirmed their solidarity with the pope and the teaching authority of the Church while recognising their differences. A far cry from people attacking the pope and the cardinal personally, ridiculing them with disparaging made-up nicknames, accusing them of "whining", and effectively launching a social media campaign against them. And if the African bishops achieved a "victory", it was a victory for unity, communion, solidarity, charity and for the whole Church, a rejection of division and schism, an example of prayerful discernment of difficult issues.

The pope has indeed warned the German bishops about the dangers of their Synodal Way, which is his duty in terms of safeguarding the unity of the Church, just as he has also warned others who stray from the path of unity and respect for papal authority and the Church's teaching magisterium. Of course he reacted slowly. Our Church is by nature conservative (with a small "c"), looking at things over the long term, with change coming slowly after a great deal of consultation, prayer, discernment and deliberation, and so reacting slowly is, and has always been, our way - part of our Tradition, one might say.

As for demasculanising the Church, more than 50% of Catholics are women, so there's nothing to be afraid of in recognising their role and their gifts in the Church. "The crisis today is who and what a human being is and whether we warrant some higher purpose", as you rightly say, and part of the answer is that a human being is not solely or primarily male. It may well be that "fatherhood and heterosexual male Christian example is in crisis", but misogyny, patriarchy, sexism and outdated macho myths are part of the cause of the crisis, not the solution. We need well-rounded caring human beings, not just single gender modelling.

I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say "the last ten years ambiguity on certain doctrines". Some evidence would be needed to justify that sound bite.

"God is not the author of confusion but of peace" may well be true, but nevertheless Jesus came to bring confusion to the established religion of his time. Many of our great saints, including St Francis of Assisi and the great reformers of the Church, also brought "chaos" or "confusion" to those "fearfully sticking to rules" and holding "rigid ideological positions". They made a mess in the Church. It's true of course that going down "unexplored paths and new roads" can go either way, but refusing to take that risk leads to stagnation and death. We are a Pilgrim People, a missionary Church, the barque of Peter (ie a ship which moves), not a museum or archive of quaint rituals and beliefs. Out hope and our faith is that the Church, with the Holy Spirit working through her pope, clergy, religious and laity, will choose the right road. It's worked for two millennia, perhaps with a few diversions but alway back on the straight and narrow, and I certainly believe it will continue on that path of Tradition.

Edited to add: One further thought. When I see terms like "fearfully sticking to rules" and holding "rigid ideological positions", I can't help thinking of the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32), and in particular of the other son, the "good" one who remained with his father, sticking to the rules, living an orderly life, doing what he thought his society expected of him, not putting a foot wrong. He could not understand why his father was so happy about the return of the "bad" son, the one who had abandoned him but now come back. I think many of us "good" Christians find ourselves in the same position when the Church reaches out to and welcomes the marginalised, the vulnerable, the lost, the "different", the sinners, the "bad" people who, in our eyes at least, do not do what the Father wants - and yet he still loves them and still waits eagerly for their potential return, ready to slaughter the fatted calf for them. Likewise the parable of the lost sheep (Matthew 18:12–14, Luke 15:3–7), where the shepherd leaves the "good" sheep who didn't wander off and get lost, and puts all his efforts into finding and bringing back the lost one, the one which had not stuck to the rules and remained cosily and safely with the flock. He doesn't just try once, and then give up because the sheep doesn't come back immediately - he goes on and on until he gets it back. "'Rejoice with me, I have found my sheep that was lost'... there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner repenting than over ninety-nine upright people who have no need of repentance".

>194 brone: In December 2023 Cardinal Authur Roche did not have the authority to tell diocean bishops they must seek Vatican approval before granting their priests permission to celebrate the traditional liturgy, he got that permission a couple of months later when Bergoglio issued a rescript

>198 brone: Why I thought that one up myself

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear, for which I apologise. You stated at least three facts here: 1. That Cardinal Roche issued a directive in December 2023 relating to celebration of the antecedent liturgy; 2. That he did not have the authority to do so; and 3. That the Holy Father issued a rescript "a couple of months later". As I take all your posts seriously and try to understand the issues you raise, I was hoping you could direct me to the written sources where you found these three facts so I can see the whole picture for myself.

Edited to add: I have found an article which may answer #3, "that dispensations from two of the rules in Traditionis custodes can only be granted by the Vatican, not by the diocesan bishop" (link). But I can't immediately find the December 2023 statement, nor the reason why he did not have the authority to make that statement.

>201 brone:

cf Archbishop of Westminster refuses permission for old rite Triduum (The Tablet)

Just one small correction. It's not the Latin Rite which has been cancelled but the antecedent rite, or as you call it, the old Mass.

>202 John5918:

Not sure what your point is, but Latin Mass according to the universal rite of the Church is available to 200 or 2 million Catholics. What is not available is mass according to the old antecedent rite. I'm also not sure why you consider it "cruel and unusual punishment" for the Catholic Church to expect Catholics to celebrate the major feast of Easter according to the universal rite of said Catholic Church rather than a former rite which is no longer used.

>205 brone:

Not sure what you mean by "the leftist mentality in Ireland", as the current main party in the Irish government (in coalition with the Greens) is Fianna Fáil, which is variously described as conservative, Christian-democratic, conservative-liberal, and national-conservative, but certainly not leftist. Mind you, almost everything is to the left of US politics, where both of your major parties are staunchly right wing.

leftists... don't like the word durable

On the contrary. I would say "leftists" are seeking durable and sustainable peace, justice and equality, and a durable and sustainable response to the current climate crisis. This is quite the opposite of the short-termism of much of right wing free market capitalist and populist ideology.

Also not sure what this has to do with the topic of this thread, "Latin Mass, FBI, Scapulas, Superbowls", but that's by the by.

>207 brone:

You do seem to be rather obsessed with gaslighting, whatever you intend that vaguely defined term to mean in the context of these discussions. But I would suggest that trying to offer either facts or opinions which counter your opinion, or offering a different worldview, lens or interpretation to yours, does not constitute gaslighting under any reasonable definition.

I use terms like "not sure" because nobody can be sure of what someone else means unless it is very clearly stated. Taking what you write at face value, I obviously disagree with it, and I state my reasons, but it gives you the opportunity to respond by clarifying it and stating your own reasons for disagreeing with me, if you so wish. Unfortunately you rarely do so, but that's your choice.

>205 brone: The leftist mentality in Ireland

Irish voters overwhelmingly reject proposed changes to constitution (Guardian)

Ireland has overwhelmingly rejected proposed changes to references on family and women in its constitution... Voters repudiated the family referendum with 67% voting “no”, and buried the care referendum in an even bigger landslide of 74%. “The family amendment and the care amendment referendums have been defeated – defeated comprehensively on a respectable turnout,” said the taoiseach, Leo Varadkar... The referendums proposed changing article 41. The family amendment proposed widening the definition of family from a relationship founded on marriage to “durable relationships” such as cohabiting couples and their children. The care amendment proposed replacing a reference to a “mother’s duties in the home” with a clause recognising care provided by family members...

Far from a "leftist mentality", I would respectfully suggest.

>212 brone: an English Catholic dream came true

To be fair, I doubt whether many English Catholics knew or cared what was happening in a distant and little known colony, and I doubt whether they had a "dream" for or about it.

Sadly 390 years later it seems that many US Christians are now subverting that worthy vision by proposing a form of theocracy which will hinder many people of other religions from worshipping (and living) freely.

>214 brone:

I see you have deleted your post to which I responded, so really there's nothing useful that I can add to that conversation.

>216 brone:

Let me wish you and everyone a blessed and peaceful Easter.

>218 brone:

For non-Catholics baffled by this, "Montini" is the person better known to most of us as Pope Paul VI. I think it's probably a bit offensive to refer to people in Africa and China as "those recently converted colonials". But yes, as with many Church doctrines, it took many years for this particular reform to take root, and indeed it is still ongoing. While much of the impetus for mass in vernacular languages rather than Latin came from non-European countries, nevertheless it took a long time for authorised translations of the mass into many of these languages to be produced. By 1969 many African languages had only existed in written form for thirty years or so, thanks to the efforts of Catholic and protestant missionaries and their local collaborators. There were languages in southern Sudan where there was no official translation of less frequently used parts of the missal such as the Easter Triduum well into the 1990s and probably even later. And yes, the Missal of the Roman Rite promulgated in 1969 by Pope Paul VI and published in 1970 is "valid and sound" and is in use throughout the world in a variety of languages including Latin.

>220 brone:

Let me just repeat that I think many Africans and Chinese would feel offended at being condescendingly and rather dismissively referred to as "those recently converted colonials", and I think it also demeans those who make such comments. As far as I can recall most of China was never a colony anyway, and has a civilisation which predates western civilisation by millennia.

I don't know what you mean by "gaslighting", as I see no relation to any definition of gaslighting which I have ever seen (NB: it is not the same as disagreeing with you), nor "throwing PC cards", and I have not mentioned J K Rowling. Apart from my opinion about your reference to "colonials", I think the rest of what I wrote is facts, not gas lamps, so your response does rather sound, once again, like an ad hominem attack rather than actually responding to any of the issues I mentioned. But nevertheless, my apologies if anything I have said is out of place.

>223 brone:

That's an interesting opinion. I'm intrigued to hear that "the American Catholic church was still a branch of the English Catholic Church", given that your first archbishop was American and that so many of the Catholics came from other parts of Europe - Italy, Poland, etc, and eventually, from the 19th century, Ireland.

As for your "the American Catholic Church is distinctly American", that's hardly surprising. It could be said of many national churches that they are "distinctly" of that nation. The Irish Church is distinctly Irish, the French distinctly French, the German distinctly German, etc. But I wonder what you mean by "American" in the context of the Catholic Church? The "older" immigrants from Europe are very close to being a minority within the US Catholic Church. Latest statistics which I can find (2015) suggest that Hispanics account for 38% of US Catholics, while blacks and Asians are 3% each. That total of 44% eight years ago has almost certainly increased since then. So the "distinctly American" Church that you grew up in might no longer be the sort of "American" that you are promoting.

As an irrelevant anecdote, it was a British missionary order, St Joseph's Society for the Foreign Missions (Mill Hill), which sent missionaries to work amongst newly-freed African Americans in the 19th century. By 1893 they established themselves as a new religious order, the Society of Saint Joseph of the Sacred Heart, more commonly known as Josephites (technically a society of apostolic life of Pontifical Right for priests and brothers). The founders included Fr John R Slattery, who led the group and would become the first Josephite superior general, and one of the nation's first black priests, Fr Charles Uncles. With the blessing of Mill Hill as well as the Archbishop of Baltimore, Cardinal Gibbons, the Josephites were established as a mission society independent from Mill Hill, based in America, and dedicated totally to the African-American cause. Their headquarters is in Baltimore, Maryland. I had the pleasure of staying there a few years back as a guest of their superior general Bishop John Ricard, whom I know from his visits to Sudan and South Sudan.

>226 brone:

And yet one hears them "whining about injustice" all the time, even on this forum. Discovering that other people, yes even "different" people, even those with whom we disagree, those we may have looked down upon, are free to live their own lives and have their own beliefs may feel like "injustice" to those who are used to their own way of life and beliefs dominating the discourse, but as Billy Bragg sings so eloquently, "Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all".

Typical gaslighting comment throw multiple phobia cards at once one will stick....JMJ....

>229 brone:

I would hesitate to single out Cardinal Sarah as the leading Catholic bishop in Africa. I would suggest several other candidates for that title, including Cardinals Peter Turkson, Dieudonné Nzapalainga, Fridolin Ambongo and even Wilfred Napier. But yes, this is definitely an example of how the centre of gravity of the Catholic Church is shifting from the Global North to the Global South.

>228 brone:

I'd be genuinely interested to hear your definition of "gaslighting", a word which you use often. It's a fairly new and imprecise term, but none of the definitions I can find online appear to match your usage of it. I don't think disagreeing with and interrogating someone's statements, presenting counter-opinions and counter-evidence, challenging erroneous or incomplete facts, and presenting different worldviews and lenses which help us to look at things from a different angle, constitute "gaslighting". Are these not just part of the cut and thrust of conversations, discussions and debates?

On the subject of "the American Catholic Church", its history and traditions, this article is enlightening.

Catholic Church’s First African American Cardinal Recalls When Black Catholics Weren’t Accepted in U.S. Seminaries (ACI Africa)

As the Catholic Church’s first African American cardinal was honored at a U.S. seminary in Rome, he recalled the legacy of faith and perseverance of Black Catholics in America, including at a time when they were not accepted by U.S. seminaries... {Wilton Cardinal} Gregory pointed out that in the 19th century, African Americans who had a vocation to the priesthood were sent to study in Rome and then to serve as missionaries in Africa because at the time they were not allowed to enter U.S. seminaries. “Being in Rome reminds me also that Rome is the place that provided a seminary education and formation for Augustus Tolton, the first African American priest to serve openly in the United States,” Gregory said. Tolton “came to Rome because Rome … was willing to take him on as a seminarian when no other seminary in the United States would accept that.” Venerable Augustus Tolton, a former slave turned Catholic priest, is now on the path to sainthood in the Catholic Church... “I know that the honor that was given to me by Pope Francis rested solidly on the faith of African American Catholics,” Gregory told CNA. “Even in times when we weren’t respected, or understood, or honored, we remained faithful.” “And the fact that I can enjoy the office, knowing that it rests on the quality of goodness, faith, and charity of the African American community, humbles me deeply,” the cardinal said with tears in his eyes...“We’re living in a very divisive moment, both in our political life in the United States, but sometimes also … in our Church,” he said. “In the United States, we’re struggling with trying to be one people — one people with a common purpose, a common future. And sometimes the rhetoric gets to be so hostile and so vitriolic that it causes us to step back and say, ‘Is this really the nation that is the land of the free and the home of the brave?’”... “As the archbishop of Washington, I have to focus on the fact that in spite of all of the differences that are at play, I have wonderful people in my archdiocese. And people have great generosity and devotion to the country and to the Church”... “I respect the president. I believe that he is a sincere man of faith, I really do believe that. I would just ask that he would somehow find a way to better allow his personal religious convictions to engage in the public forum,” Gregory said. The cardinal pointed to the Vatican’s recent declaration on human dignity, Dignitas Infinita, as “a wonderful summation of the Church’s moral teaching.”Gregory said that he hopes that the Eucharistic revival in the U.S. will lead American Catholics to “draw closer together as a family of faith around the altar that Christ sets for us”...

>233 brone:

Any response to >231 John5918:?

>233 brone:

Yes, I think you and I could probably agree that it's a pity more bishops have not bought into the spirit of the Pact of the Catacombs (full text). This was a pledge signed in 1965 by more than forty Catholic bishops on the sidelines of the Second Vatican Council in which they promised, amongst other things, to "seek to live according to the ordinary manner of our people, regarding habitation, food, means of transport and all which springs from this; renounce the appearance and reality of riches, especially regarding to our manner of dress; not possess real estate, goods, bank accounts etc. in our own names; entrust the financial and material administration in our dioceses to a commission of competent laity; refuse to be addressed, orally or in writing, by names or titles which signify prestige and power; avoid anything which may seem to confer privileges, priority or any preference for the rich and powerful", and more. More than 500 bishops added their signatures in the next few months, and both Bishop Luigi Bettazzi, the last of the original signatories who died last year, and Cardinal Walter Kasper have observed that Pope Francis exemplifies much of what is in the Pact. The first part of a longer reflection on the Pact can be read here.

Mind you, I know many bishops who do live simply. I've stayed with them in simple bungalows, tents, mud and thatch shelters, shipping containers, even sleeping in the open air, sometimes under fire. God bless them.

I think, though, that your rather sarcastic ad hominem attack on Cardinal Gregory is an avoidance of the main point of >232 John5918:, namely that there is no single monolithic "American Catholicism" as you appear to suggest, but that there are many experiences and narratives of US Catholicism which all deserve to he heard and respected. Your views may represent some US Catholics, but you do not speak on behalf of "American Catholicism" in its diversity and entirety.

#232-John
On the subject of "the American Catholic Church", its history and traditions, this article is enlightening.

Catholic Church’s First African American Cardinal Recalls When Black Catholics Weren’t Accepted in U.S. Seminaries (ACI Africa)

Perhaps it would be good if you and the cardinal spent a bit more time recalling when Catholics, especially priests, could barely find safety in the US. Particularly in New England, tar and feathers is not a warm or heathy welcome. Do you think we deserve reparation?

>238 brone: I have already explained to you what "gas lighting" means

I don't recall that. Can you tell me where to find that post? I know nothing about a film called "Gaslight" but I have looked up "gaslighting" online and none of the definitions I can find seem to match your usage of the term, which is why I'm asking you what you mean by the term.

>236 brone: the scene as he saw police effectively imprison conference attendees inside the venue

This was quite a common practice in UK (largely under right wing governments) from the late 1990s, although I don't know if they still use it. It was called "kettling". The police would block off certain streets and herd people into them, holding them there until the police decided to let them go. Wikipedia describes it thus: "Kettling (also known as containment or corralling) is a police tactic for controlling large crowds during demonstrations or protests. It involves the formation of large cordons of police officers who then move to contain a crowd within a limited area. Protesters either leave through an exit controlled by the police, leave through an uncontrolled gap in the cordons, or are contained, prevented from leaving, and arrested. The tactic has proved controversial, in part because it has resulted in the detention of ordinary bystanders as well as protesters". Not something I would approve of, whether used by right wing or left wing authorities.

>237 eschator83:

Nobody would deny that Catholics have in the past been discriminated against in the USA, as they were in England, Scotland, Ireland and many other countries. But that doesn't alter the fact that there are many different narratives and experiences within the diverse Catholic Church, and the one which you present as "American Catholicism" is in fact only one amongst many "American Catholic" narratives.

>242 brone:

It's good to see bishops using public transport. Very much in tune with the Pact of the Catacombs mentioned above.

>244 brone:

I rather think Margaret Thatcher would have loved to "kettle" Cardinal Basil Hume and Archbishop of Canterbury Robert Runcie if the police had been using that tactic in those days. She was furious with them because they refused to allow a national ecumenical Church service marking the end of the Falklands/Malvinas war in 1982 to be turned into a triumphal "victory" celebration and insisted on praying for the dead of both sides in the conflict. It was particularly galling for her that Runcie had won the Military Cross as a tank commander in the second world war, so he could not be depicted as ignorant of warfare.

A nice Latin chant at mass in Rwanda here, led by the priest, with a smartly turned out choir.

Same chant sung in Nigeria here.

Edited to add: Amazing how when you've watched something on YouTube it keeps flagging up similar things. Here is a version by what appears to be an African choir in Paris.

Edited again. They keep on coming. Here is this Latin chant being sung at a solemn occasion in Notre Dame de Paris. Note the old high altar with tabernacle.

Same cathedral, different Latin chant, with a magnificent organ accompaniment.

>250 brone:

Latin never faded away. It has always been used in apprioriate circumstances in suitable locations, as Vatican II intended. And of course Pope Paul VI was correct in saying that the Council was not "a severence a break" nor a "liberation from the tradititional teaching of the Church". He was perhaps chiding those few who believed it to be so and who moved in some rather unwise directions. The same caution could today be extended to those amongst its opponents who also apparently believe it to have been so and who are now also moving in some rather unwise, albeit opposite, directions.

Edited to add: boomer priests

I find it difficult to keep up with all these terms, but I rather thought that both you and I were part of the so-called "boomer" generation - my apologies if I am wrong. While there are no doubt some common elements to those born within a certain generation, it's always a bit dodgy making sweeping generalisations about whole groups of individuals, particularly on a global rather than just a national basis. I personally know priests from that generation who are/were distinctly "conservative". Conversely I know priests from the younger generation who I would class as open-minded, not "conservative". I also knew priests and bishops from the earlier pre-boomer generation, definitely pre-Vatican II in their upbringing and training, who were progressive in their thinking and praxis - indeed this is the very generation of bishops who participated in Vatican II. I'm not convinced that the "boomer priests" as a group are really so different from their predecessors and successors, although the advent of social media has definitely amplified the voice of the "conservatives" among the latter.

>252 brone:

Can't say I know anything about American football, so much of that post passed me by. I did watch a pre-season game at Notre Dame a few years back, but didn't really understand what was going on so we left at half time. I do know that there are no Marxist politicans in mainstream USA, and I doubt whether there are any Catholic Marxists either, but I know you just use the term "Marxist" as a pejorative against people with whom you disagree. I also know that honestly speaking one's mind is not a mortal sin. I'm not sure why "he called for the restoration of the latin mass" as the Latin mass is available already - there's a Latin mass every weekday in Westminster Cathedral in London, for example, and any priest is entitled to celebrate mass in Latin. I can't say I've ever come across "fake nuns", but maybe they exist. I'm not sure who are these "same people" supporting "terrorists" on US campuses, nor condoning violence - the whole point of those demonstrations is to oppose violence. I'm also not aware of any statues of Our Lady being toppled - perhaps you could provide some information on that?

>254 brone: blessings to a sinful relationship in God's name

I think the point is that it doesn't offer "blessings to a sinful relationship". Instead it does what Catholics have always done, which is to offer blessings to sinful individuals, a term which includes all of us, including you and me.

>257 brone: there has to be an enemy onto which you can focus the aggression... their enemies are nonviolent and outspoken

I'm aware that you usually use "socialist" as a pejorative against anyone you disagree with rather than an accurate description, but nevertheless let me challenge your sweeping characterisation of socialists.

Firstly, of course there have been violent socialists, just as there have been violent individuals and groups within any class of human beings, yes, even amongst Christians whose God told us to love our enemies and turn the other cheek, and who rejected violence even to save his own life against unjust execution ("Peter, put away your sword").

Secondly, not every autocratic regime which uses the term "socialist" is actually socialist. The Nazis that you mention were fascists, not socialists, despite calling themselves National Socialists.

However most of the people I'm aware of who lean towards the socialist end of the political, social and economic spectrum also tend towards nonviolence. I think it is the right wing, nationalist, capitalist, fascist end of the spectrum which routinely uses and normalises violence. Three major ongoing wars - Ukraine, Gaza and Sudan - are dominated by right wing aggressors. Russia is no longer socialist (if it ever was) - it is an autocratic capitalist regime. The Israeli regime is right wing, as is its main backer the USA (yes, I know you think Biden is left wing, but to the rest of the world the US political establishment is capitalist and right of centre regardless of who the president is). To the extent that Hamas is Islamist, that is a fascist ideology. The RSF in Sudan is characterised as fascist. It's the capitalist USA which has been in the forefront of many recent wars, including Vietnam, Panama, Grenada, Afghanistan and Iraq. It was two right wing governments, Thatcher's UK and Galtieri's Argentina, which went to war over the Falklands/Malvinas. Right wing regimes in South America, again supported by the USA, were responsible for a huge amount of violence for decades. Currently the USA and a number of other capitalist countries are amongst the main arms suppliers in the world, to say nothing of the proliferation of small arms and light weapons in the hands of civilians. Once again, I'm not suggesting that there are no left of centre "socialist" aggressors or arms suppliers, simply that your focus on "socialists" is misplaced.

In modern times it is generally the left which is "nonviolent and outspoken" and which suffers the aggression of the right wing capitalist establishment, whether that be democratically elected or autocratically imposed.

As for "there has to be an enemy onto which you can focus the aggression", that's part of the playbook of most ideologies. The Cold War gave both the USA and USSR ready made enemies. When that ended, the USA chose Islam as the new enemy, with China also being a candidate. Now the USA and Russia are once again reinventing each other as the ideological enemy, with their allies lining up to take sides. Jews were the ideological enemy of Europe for many centuries; now they have been replaced by Muslims. Migrants seem to be everybody's chosen enemy. The list goes on. I agree with you that it is a very unhealthy dynamic which needs to be challenged, but it is not confined to any one side.

>259 brone:

It's not the pope who abrogated the Tridentine Rite, it's an Ecumenical Council made up of all the bishops of the Catholic Church in union with the pope (remember that only four out of thousands of bishops opposed the reform), which in fact makes it precisely "the rite handed down by the ecclesiastical sacraments of the Catholic Church". The rite of the mass is not something which has been newly invented, it is but a reform of the "traditional, millenium-old rites of Mass", which has been developed and reformed many times over two millennia - the Tridentine rite was itself a product of reform and lasted for 400 years, not a millennium, before again being reformed. You're tilting at windmills, my friend.

>261 brone: cancelled diocesan Latin Mass goers

There are no "cancelled" Latin mass goers. The Latin Mass is widely available without restrictions throughout the Catholic Church, at least where there is any demand for it, which in most places there isn't. There is a Latin mass every weekday in Westminster Cathedral, the pre-eminent Catholic Church of England and Wales, and many masses in the Vatican are in Latin. What is not regularly available in any language is mass celebrated according to a now-superseded antecedent rite. Your terminology is very misleading for people who are not aware of the reality.

The reality is that it is not "the Latin Mass" which is no longer available, it is the antecedent Tridentine Rite. "The Latin Mass" is widely available without any restrictions. The authoritative Vatican II document Sacrosanctum Concilium decreed, amongst other things, that (1) the mass should be reformed, and (2) that Latin should still be used where appropriate. It did not decree that the antecedent Tridentine Rite should still be available. In many of your posts you try to conflate the antecedent rite and the Latin Mass, and suggest that because there are restrictions on the former it means that the Latin Mass is banned (or "cancelled", to use a word you like). I would suggest that this is inaccurate and misleading. They are not the same thing; the Latin Mass is still alive and well in the Vatican and a number of other places, while Latin songs and chants are still to be found in many masses which are mainly in the vernacular.

Well, you make my point for me in your own words when you refer to "Holy Mass in the old Latin Rite". It is not the Latin Mass which is unavailable, it is the Latin Mass in the old superseded antecedent rite. The Latin Mass celebrated according to the universal rite of the Roman Catholic Church is available anywhere where there is a demand and where you can find a priest who speaks Latin - indeed the definitive version of the Roman Missal is in Latin. Cardinal Muller is not criticising the use of Latin, but he is correct when he bemoans the fact that a large scale public liturgy in that particular case was celebrated using an unauthorised rite, just as you are correct when you bemoan the fact that some "progressives" do not follow the authorised liturgical norms. But it is misleading when you constantly claim that the issue is the Latin Mass. It isn't. It's an issue regarding whether one uses an authorised or an unauthorised liturgical rite. In that respect you and your fellow "conservatives" who demand the use of an unauthorised antecedent rite are in the same position as those "progressives" who make use of unauthorised experimental rites.

>267 brone:

But you don't address the actual point of my last few posts, namely that what you are yearning for is not "the Latin Mass" but the antecedent Tridentine Rite mass. You apparently reject the Latin Mass which is celebrated regularly by the Roman Catholic Church according to its universal liturgical rite.

You don't cite a source for Cardinal Muller's words so it's difficult to know exactly what he said, but even in the small part that you quote he does not dismiss the youth pilgrimage as "meaningless". He merely regrets that a large public mass was celebrated according to an irregular rite. I remember you railed in far stronger language against a youth mass celebrated irregularly by an Italian priest a couple of years ago. Catholic masses are best celebrated according to the authorised rites.

You throw terms like "Nazi" and "reich" around very casually. You also tilt at more straw persons - who exactly believes that "racism is the cause of all the problems of Europe and the US"? Most people recognise that the problems of the Global North stem from a complex mix of factors, including unbridled free market capitalism, militarism, climate change denial and right wing authoritarianism - for the latter see for example this New Republic article posted elsewhere on LT.

>269 brone:

Can you cite a source for this please? What has been "cancelled"? Is it a "simple" Latin Mass in accordance with the universal rite of the Church, or is it an irregular Latin mass celebrated under the old antecedent Tridentine rite? From the sources I have been able to find online, it appears to be the latter.

>271 brone: Catholics cannot allow the proper Catholic notion of welcoming the stranger to blind us from the truth of the danger a certain percentage of the 15 million strangers who have illegally entered the US

As far as I can recall, in the parable in Matthew 25 when the Lord says that if you have welcomed the stranger you have welcomed him, he doesn't add qualifiers such as "unless you have been led to believe that they are dangerous" or "unless they have been labelled as 'illegal' by some arbitrary secular rules". And you yourself admit that it is only a "percentage" (and the evidence suggests only a tiny percentage) who might fall into those categories, so there is certainly neither a need nor a justification for sweeping generalisations about migrants. I'm a migrant, and I'm neither illegal nor dangerous.

>273 brone:

"Blessed are you when people abuse you and persecute you and speak all kinds of calumny against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven; this is how they persecuted the prophets before you" (Matthew 5:11-12).

Why so worried about a little ridicule, falsehood and calumny?

>275 brone:

Is this what you are referring to?
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/summer/olympics-imane-khelif-angela-carini-bo...

>277 brone:

I wonder whether you have read the articles about the Dionysus scene which have been posted in a parallel thread? They have made it clear that the resemblance to the Last Supper painting is because that painting was itself modelled on the Dionysus scene.

> 278 ". . . the (Last Supper painting) was itself modelled on the Dionysus scene"

I don't think that's quite what the claim is, is it?

>279 cpg:

I think I read that in one of those articles. Can't remember which one.

This article perhaps

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/jul/29/olympic-last-supper-scene-...

>282 sqdancer:

Thanks, yes, I think that's the one.

>285 brone:

Don't confuse disagreement with prejudice!

>286 John5918: Don't confuse ignorance with facts!

I'm not sure whether this is the right thread, as you delete a lot of your posts so it's difficult for me to keep track, but I know that you often refer to and are very supportive of this year's Eucharistic Congress in the USA. I just want to mention the good news that there are also Eucharistic Congresses taking place in South Sudan and Madagascar, and probably elsewhere. All of them emphasise a renewed focus on the Eucharist. Pope Francis has recently encouraged us all in this regard: Pope Francis Reflects with Wonder on "the miracle of the Eucharist" (ACI Africa).

Here's another example of an ongoing International Eucharistic Congress, this one beginning in Quito, Ecuador.

1,600 Children Receive First Holy Communion at International Eucharistic Congress (ACI Africa)

In an atmosphere of celebration, joy, and devotion, some 25,000 people, including 1,600 children in white robes and traditional costumes who received their first Communion, participated Sunday in the opening Mass of the 2024 International Eucharistic Congress in Quito, Ecuador... He also shared a message sent by Pope Francis to the children: “Making your first Communion means wanting to be closer to Jesus every day, to grow in friendship with him and that others can also enjoy the joy that he wants to give us. The Lord needs you to be able to work the miracle, that your joy may reach many of your family members and friends”... “We bless the Holy Spirit for inspiring this in the Church and in Pope Francis,” he added.

Another Eucharistic Congress, this one in Tanzania: Tanzania’s Fifth Eucharistic Congress Opens with Call to Witness to Christ “with help, power of the Holy Spirit” (ACI Africa)

“Jesus drew people to himself”: Participants Share Joy of Over 30,000 at Tanzania’s Fifth Eucharistic Congress

Uhuru National Stadium in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania’s major city and commercial port on the country’s Indian Ocean coast, was fully packed during the concluding Mass of the fifth Eucharistic Congress in the East African nation, which took place from September 12-15. The stadium has a 30,000-seating capacity. Those who did not find seats made themselves comfortable on the grass while thousands of others followed the event from outside the stadium. Participants in the event that coincided with the weeklong 53rd International Eucharistic Congress (IEC 2024) that also concluded in the South American nation of Ecuador on September 15 say that they witnessed the power of the Eucharist, with the Eucharistic Jesus “drawing people to himself”...

Pope Francis Tells Young People to Prioritize the Eucharist Like Carlo Acutis

Pope Francis in his youth message released on Tuesday encouraged young people to imitate Blessed Carlo Acutis in prioritizing “the great gift of the Eucharist.” “As Blessed Carlo Acutis said, the Eucharist is the highway to heaven,” the pope wrote in his message for diocesan World Youth Days published on Sept. 17. Pope Francis pointed to how Blessed Carlo made praying before the Eucharist “his most important daily appointment,” which gave him the strength to persevere in his journey of faith. “I encourage all of you to rediscover the great gift of the Eucharist!” the pope said. Pope Francis highlighted the witness of Acutis, whom he will soon canonize as the first millennial saint...

Both from ACI Africa

>298 brone: synodality for a synodal church is limping back into session

Well, it's certainly about to go back into session, with the participants currently in a retreat reflecting on Mary and the rosary. As Cardinal Mario Grech says, “I would like to invite everyone, in this month of October devoted to Mother Mary, to pray with the holy rosary during the synod so that this prayer may accompany us on the journey of these days... The rosary is an endless rumination of the word of God. Let us invoke together this month Mother Mary, model of the Church, so that the synodal assembly that begins its journey today may be a renewed Pentecost” (link). But it's certainly not "limping". It has engendered a great deal of excitement, listening, sharing, studying and prayer in many parts of the world where the Church is young, vibrant and expanding, perhaps less so in the older churches of Europe and north America.

As for sins, we are certainly hearing a lot about "sins of abuse", and indeed you rightly focus a lot on sexual abuse in your own posts. The "sin against indigenous peoples" has only gained attention relatively recently, as for many centuries these peoples had no voice, and the Church formally declared their land Terra nullius and colluded with their genocide. Likewise "the sin against creation" has only come to the fore in our own generation, as previous generations did not realise the damage we were doing to God's created world. African and Asian people have been suffering the results of this sin for some time now, but it seems that the people of Georgia, Florida and elsewhere in the Global North are now also beginning to realise it, as you have mentioned in another thread. The "sin against poverty" refers to the causes of poverty. "Sins against women" have of course been going on for ever, but in our patriarchal society and Church they have been swept under the carpet for too long. "Sins against the family" are also not new, and we had a Synod on the Family not too long ago; many of the bishops I work with are very concerned about strengthening family life. "Sins against youth" speaks for itself, not only sexual and physical abuse but also radicalisation, forcing them to become child soldiers, prostitutes, etc, mistreating young migrants, failing to provide education, health care and adequate food and potable water, etc. As for "sins of war" and "against peace", again that is not new; it was highlighted in the Sermon on the Mount two millennia ago, and it is still with us now in Ukraine, Gaza, Sudan, Yemen and many other places, as well as in the militarism, military-industrial complexes and geopolitical aspirations of countries which support various sides, including Russia, North Korea, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, UAE, UK and USA.

Your young priest will have plenty of opportunity to celebrate mass in Latin, as many of the Church's formal occasions in Rome are marked with a Latin Mass; look on YouTube and you'll find lots of recordings of the pope and cardinals presiding at big public masses in Latin. If you are not speaking about Latin Mass as such, but about the old antecedent rite which is no longer used regularly, then his presence at the Synod is not "foolishness", it is a God-given opportunity for him to raise this liturgical issue which a small minority of Catholics, including your good self, consider important. The Church gives you the opportunity to speak and be listened to; better, I would have thought, to take advantage of it and engage fully and enthusiastically rather than disparage it and dismiss it as "foolishness".

>300 brone:

Well yes, the synodal way is a process, and by its nature it is open-ended; there is no preconceived result. We don't know the result because it is based on listening and sharing, and that has to be (and is being) done.

A "new way of being Church" is not a "tangible change" from the term used for millennia, "the Church". From the earliest times, long before it became an institution, the Church was the people, the gathering of believers. It still is.

Neither is "autonomy of local bishops" a new thing. The College of Bishops plays a vital governance role in the church. The episcopacy itself is of divine origin, and bishops are successors to the apostles in their own right. The Second Vatican Council in its document Lumen Gentium (27) explicitly taught that bishops are not "to be regarded as vicars of the Roman Pontiff", and in that regard the Bishop of Rome is the "first amongst equals". Canon law repeatedly recognises the power of the bishop to govern the affairs of the local church (cf eg link).

I don't understand your "two problems", "our fear of our fierce love for the church makes us narrowminded and backward" or "the Church will be harmed by reforms which undermine the traditions we love". Why should our fierce love for the Church as she continues to grow and move forward either cause fear or make us narrowminded and backward? And since the tradition of the Church is reform, why should that reform undermine that same tradition?

>302 brone:

I don't really think the mission of the Church is to make Catholics "rest secure" in their faith, ie to make those who are comfortable feel more comfortable. Our faith should constantly challenge us and actually make us uncomfortable. It should also be presented in a way which attracts newcomers to the faith and speaks to the poor, the marginalised, the oppressed, the vulnerable, the insecure, the outsiders, as Jesus did, and as it apparently does in the parts of the globe where the Church is vibrant and expanding, less so perhaps in the more "secure" and "comfortable" Church in the Global North.

But I wonder what your hurry is? This is the greatest discernment process which has gone on in the Church since the Second Vatican Council sixty years ago. That was spread over four years, not two, and each session was two to three months long, not just one. And while Vatican II had more delegates, all of them bishops, the consultation process has been much wider for this Synod. What's more, sixty years on, we're still unpacking the wonders of Vatican II, a cornucopia rather than a Pandora's box, and we're still at a very early stage of putting it fully into practice.

Edited to add to that first paragraph: Interestingly at a penitential vigil for Synod members and participants, Pope Francis preached on the gospel story in Luke 18:10-14, often known as "the pharisee and the publican". The pharisee was a righteous and religious man who "rested secure" in the comfort of his faith, but Jesus praises the humble outsider. How many times, Pope Francis asked, “have we taken up all the space ourselves, with our words, our judgments, our titles, our belief that we alone have merit?” Instead, the pope said, “today we are all like the publican, our eyes downcast and ashamed of our sins. Like him, we lag behind, clearing the space occupied by conceit, hypocrisy, and pride.” The penitential service, on the eve of the solemn opening of the Synod, “is an opportunity to restore trust in and towards the Church, a trust shattered by our mistakes and sins; and to begin to heal the wounds that do not stop bleeding.” Burdened as we are by the “humanity of our sin,” the pope said, “We would not want this burden to slow down the journey of the Kingdom of God in history.” The Holy Father himself extended the sign of peace to those who gave their testimony earlier in the ceremony, and to a young man and a young woman, a seminarian, and a religious sister. To these last, representatives of the youth, Pope Francis then consigned a copy of the Gospel, entrusting to them and their contemporaries the mandate to proclaim the Good News to future generations, in the hopes of “a better mission, ever more faithful to the logic of the Kingdom of God” (link). I was with young African seminarians myself last week, training to be missionaries, and I certainly share the pope's trust and hope in the evangelisation potential of this future generation of missionary priests.

Just as an aside, I often glance at The Message bible just to get a sense of a contemporary way of expressing God's Word, albeit not necessarily as a technically accurate translation, and I like its take on this text: "{Jesus} told his next story to some who were complacently pleased with themselves over their moral performance and looked down their noses at the common people... Jesus commented, 'This tax man, not the other, went home made right with God. If you walk around with your nose in the air, you’re going to end up flat on your face, but if you’re content to be simply yourself, you will become more than yourself.'”

>305 brone: since when do we have mass public confessions by Cardinals before a sitting pope confessing their sins

Well, actually it was quite a common part of Christian tradition up until the Middle Ages (eg link and link). Remember that we Catholics (and I think also Anglicans, Lutherans and Orthodox) still begin every mass with a penitential rite in which we publicly say together the Confiteor (I confess) and/or Kyrie eleison (Lord have mercy). And at least since the Second Vatican Council communal penance or reconciliation services have been quite common, particularly in Advent and Lent (eg link). I've been to quite a few myself. Penitential services often form part of a retreat, which is what this occasion was, a retreat for Synod participants in preparation for the upcoming meeting. Humbly acknowledging one's sins before the Christian community does not seem to me to be "politicisation".

Not sure what any of that has to do with "Soviet show trials", "Mao's cultural revolution" or "Liberation theology".

>309 brone:

Good to hear that you are surviving these environmental disasters. My thoughts and prayers are with you, and all who suffer such events throughout the world.

>311 brone:

Catholic voters favor Trump over Harris nationally and in swing states, exit polls show (Catholic News Agency)

Trump won the national Catholic vote by a 15-point margin: 56% to 41%...

The CNA article above includes some interesting analysis on specific issues, including abortion.

Trump courted white Catholics—and they helped him win the White House again (America Magazine)

Former president Donald J. Trump’s decisive Electoral College win was achieved in part by a strong show of support from white Catholic voters, a demographic that his campaign specifically targeted... Mr. Trump handily carried the Catholic vote, 56 percent to 41 percent. Among white Catholics, the former president fared even better, capturing 60 percent of the vote... Black and Hispanic Catholic voters broke big for Ms. Harris, with 58 percent of Latino Catholics and 81 percent of Black Catholics voting for the vice president... Mr. Trump improved from 2020 with Latino male voters... Catholic Vote, a political advocacy organization that supported Mr. Trump, regularly highlighted the former president’s overtures to Catholic voters in the weeks leading up to the election and helped amplify a message that Ms. Harris was hostile to Catholicism... “Catholics are increasingly attracted by the agenda of the new right, popularized by Trump, which combines family-first social policies with America-first economic priorities”. Meanwhile, Catholic Democrats, an advocacy group that had supported Ms. Harris, posted on X a call for Catholics to pray for the nation and especially for those experiencing “feelings of fear, anxiety, profound disappointment and a range of other challenging negative emotions”... Cardinal Joseph Tobin, the archbishop of Newark... posted a prayer for migrants. “Mary, Solace of Migrants, intercede for families who are fleeing from persecution, famine or pestilence in search of a better life for themselves and their families,” he posted. “Fill our hearts with compassion and inspire us to share generously with all our sisters and brothers in need.” Jesuit Refugee Service USA released a statement on Wednesday calling on the incoming administration “to honor the United States’ historic role as a proud nation of immigrants”...

>313 brone: return to the American dream of legal immigration

Reminds me of a campaign poster I saw in the Australian council of churches office about twenty years ago when the right wing there was having one of its periodic anti-immigration fits. Two Australian aborigines are leaning on their spears watching a British sailing ship arriving in the bay. One says to the other, "Here's another boatload of those undocumented immigrants. I bet they're riddled with disease and they've all got criminal records in their own country". Plus ca change. Back in the good old days of mass immigration to the USA and other immigrant countries such as Canada and Australia it was anything but "legal" and there was little discernable "rule of law".

>316 brone: They do not resemble the courageous Missionaries of North America

What about the courageous Jesuit missionary Fr Victor Luke Odhiambo, who was murdered in South Sudan in 2018? Or courageous Jesuit martyrs Maurice Meigne (1975, Lebanon), Javier Campos Morales and Joaquin Cesar Mora Salazar (2022, Mexico), Stan Swamy (2021, India), Frans van der Lugt (2014, Syria), Joaquín López y López, Juan Ramon Moreno, Amando López, Segundo Montes, Ignacio Martín-Baró and Ignacio Ellacuría (this last group all murdered in 1989 in El Salvador), Ray Adams (1989, Ghana), Sergio Restrepo (1989, Colombia), Jean de Boisseson (1988, Madagascar), Andre Masse (1987, Lebanon), Vicente Canas Costa (1987, Brazil), Goncalves Kantedza and Silvio Alves Moreira (1985, Mozambique), Nicolas Kluiters (1985, Lebanon), J. Guadalupe Carney, who was a US World War II veteran (1983, Honduras), Francis Xavier Chu Shu-Teh (1983, China), Carlos Perez Alonso (1981, Guatemala), Godofredo Alingal (1981, Philippines), Luis Espinal Camps (1980, Bolivia)... the list of courageous Jesuit missionary martyrs in the 21st and late 20th centuries goes on and on, but I think I have made my point. The list also includes some of the non-Jesuit missionary martyrs such as Holy Spirit Missionary Sister Veronika Rackova, a medical doctor murdered in South Sudan in 2016, but is not complete and I could add other names such as Mill Hill Missionaries John Kaiser, a former US paratrooper, murdered in Kenya in 2000, Cosmas Omboto Ondari (2018, Cameroon) and Declan O'Toole (2002, Uganda). I knew some of these priests and sisters personally, and I would reject the implied suggestion that they were less courageous than any other missionaries and martyrs. Incidentally many of these martyrs were murdered not by "pagans" but by people calling themselves Christians.

I think this is the thread where there has been some mention of Eucharistic Congresses in the Catholic Church, so this might be of interest.

Eucharistic Congress, Golden Jubilee in Sudan, South Sudan “a testament to the enduring spirit of communion”: Cardinal (ACI Africa)

Stephen Cardinal Ameyu Martin Mulla of the Catholic Archdiocese of Juba in South Sudan has described the Eucharistic Congress and the Golden Jubilee of the Catholic hierarchy in Sudan and South Sudan as a testament to the enduring spirit of communion within the Catholic Church. Speaking at the conclusion of the yearlong Eucharistic Congress and the Golden Jubilee on November 24, Cardinal Ameyu expressed gratitude for the remarkable gathering of Clergy, Women and Men Religious, and lay faithful “united in faith and fellowship.” “This occasion stands as a testament to the enduring spirit of communion within our church. The joy of this jubilee was magnified by the presence of so many devoted individuals during this time, Priests, Religious, lay people, who have united in faith and in fellowship,” the South Sudanese Cardinal said during the event that was held at the Juba National Stadium. He added, “Your participation has not only enriched the celebration but has served as a powerful reminder of our shared mission in Christ”...

>320 brone:

Thanks for mentioning Thomas Merton. He was one of the great proponents of modern Catholic spirituality, and can be credited with playing a major role in the rediscovery of traditional contemplative Christian spirituality which had pretty much dropped off the radar for several centuries. Many Christians were not even aware of this part of our tradition and were exploring eastern spirituality, but people like Merton brought us firmly back to Christian contemplative prayer. I have read a lot of his work, and I must say I don't really recognise the caricature that you paint of him, and the idea that "John of the Cross, Theresa of Avila were gone" is just completely false; quite the opposite, in fact, as they are amongst the Christian mystics who have been rediscovered as a result of the new impetus that Merton and others gave to Christian contemplative prayer.

You are very hard on "boomers" in many of your posts. I understand that the boomer generation is generally considered to be those born between 1946 and 1964, so Merton, born in 1915, was not a "boomer". I don't like such labels. The experiences of a particular generation are going to be very different in the USA, Europe, Africa or wherever. In Britain we think of ourselves as the post-war generation. We grew up during the period of post-war austerity where luxuries were scarce (rationing only ended the year I was born), surrounded by the devastation of war (my early memories growing up in London are of bombed out buildings, and my childhood mates and I used to play in a V2 crater). Every adult we knew had experienced the war first hand, either in the military, the merchant navy or as civilians coping with the bombing and other privations, and their culture of thrift and stoicism shaped us. Very different for Africans and Indians, for example, who began to look towards independence from colonialism following their selfless military service in World War II, or continental Europe which had the Marshal Plan to help them rebuild, or the USA, which I understand experienced an economic boom during those years.

So the "re-imagined Church" did not come from "boomers". The Second Vatican Council, presided over by two popes born in 1881 and 1897 respectively, was held from 1962-65, so one can safely say that not one single Council Father was a "boomer" born between 1946 and 1964. I've spent much of the last forty years working with a group of bishops and elder priests in Sudan who were all born before 1946, and now that they have all gone to their heavenly home I find myself working with new bishops in South Sudan. Out of eight diocesan bishops and one auxiliary bishop, only two (less than 25%) could be conceivably be classed as "boomers" and even they were born in 1964, the last year of that generation, so they are right on the cusp. In one diocese where I have detailed statistics because, at the request of the new bishop, I have just written a history of the diocese, of the 23 current priests (including the bishop) from the diocese, only one (born 1963) falls into the "boomer" category. Since Africa is the youngest continent, with around 70% of Africans being under the age of 30, it is likely that this pattern is repeated in other dioceses and nations, and with Africa having the fastest Catholic growth rate and the most number of seminarians, there is little danger of the Church being controlled by "hippie boomer priests".

For some reason you are also very negative about "the synodal church", but once again it is Africans (ie mainly non-"boomers") who speak out most positively about this development. Elsewhere on LT I have posted many reflections from African bishops, priests and laity in this regard. Here's another one, from another non-"boomer" bishop (born in 1977): Catholic Bishop in South Sudan Urges Church to Overcome Clericalism, Embrace Synodal Conversion.

I find your reference to "Kumbayah" strange. I can't remember when I last heard that hymn sung and it certainly hasn't been a commonly used hymn in Catholic circles for many years, but it comes from a respected tradition of African American spirituality, a reflection on God during times of suffering based on their experience of slavery and oppression, and is not something to be made light of.

>322 brone:

I don't think there's any evidence that Merton was a Zen Buddhist, indeed quite the opposite, nor that "he left orthodoxy and became enmeshed in a new hybrid religion". While he was a proponent of inter-faith dialogue and had a great interest in and respect for Zen Buddhism, in his final letter he wrote, "In my contacts with these new friends, I also feel a consolation in my own faith in Christ and in his dwelling presence. I hope and believe he may be present in the hearts of all of us." Sounds pretty orthodox to me. "Conservative" Catholics such as Archbishop Fulton Sheen and Bishop Robert Barron speak highly of him. In contrast to your claim in >320 brone: that "John of the Cross, Theresa of Avila were gone", Barron credits Merton for his own introduction to these two and a number of other Christian mystics. Barron also favourably compares Merton's relationship with Buddhism with Aquinas' relationship with Aristotle, and completely refutes the suggestion that Merton was moving away from Catholicism towards the end of his life.

I'm not sure his death was as "mysterious" as you suggest. He was attending a monastic conference in Thailand, where he died in a bathtub, either from a heart attack or accidental electrocution or both; there was no autopsy so we can't be sure, although the official report stated that the cause of death was "natural causes". There is speculation as to whether he was murdered by the CIA because of his anti-war activism, but who knows?

Edited to add: Incidentally, going back to your dislike of "boomer" bishops and priests, it has just occurred to me that Pope Francis, whom you also dislike, is not a "boomer" - he was born in 1936.

>324 brone:

Remember that the Catholic Church respects the human dignity of all human beings created in the image and likeness of God, so the fact that a particular priest identifies as homosexual is of no relevance to anything, and I don't see any problem with the Church praying for those living with AIDS, and for those who face the challenges of being homosexual in a homophobic world. You may be aware that in most of the world HIV/AIDS is not associated with homosexuality at all; it is a disease which can strike anyone who is sexually active, and is very prevalent in Africa, where it decimated a particular generation and where some of the largest HIV prevention and management programmes were run by the Catholic Church (eg in southern Africa). And as I have pointed out elsewhere, the rainbow is a traditional biblical symbol of God's covenant with "every living creature on earth" (Genesis 9:12-17), emphasis on every, which is why it is also a potent symbol of inclusivity.

For those readers who have not heard of him, Fr Bryan Massingale is a well known Catholic theologian who has written a lot on racial justice and the challenges of being a black priest, and who has been an advisor to the US Catholic Conference of Bishops. I wasn't even aware that he was gay, as I have always concentrated on the racial justice area of his work and I understand that he only "came out" within the last five years. Incidentally, as far as I know he is not a Jesuit but a diocesan priest of the Archdiocese of Milwaukee.

I had never heard Dolan called "Timmy". When I met him we addressed him as "cardinal", but maybe you know something that I don't.

>326 brone:

Just a point of fact: it was the previous right wing Tory government which oversaw the COVID lockdown, not the current Labour government.

>330 brone:

I've never come across the Non-Catholic Reporter. Can you cite a link, please, as I've googled and can't find it? I'm aware of the National Catholic Register and the National Catholic Reporter, both in the USA, but not yours with the same initials.

But yes, our prayers are with Nancy Pelosi, as with all who suffer health issues. Thanks for charitably commending her to our prayers.

>333 brone: the UK is the only far left country in the G-7

Interesting. That's the first time I've seen Keir Starmer's Labour government described as "far left". Most commentators would view him as pretty centrist, with headlines such as: Keir Starmer among least leftwing Labour MPs, study finds; Labour is seen as much more left wing than Keir Starmer; and Keir Starmer Already Faces a Real Challenge From the Left. It may be that we needed a centre left (rather than far left) leader to get Labour elected into government to rescue the UK from the 14 years of far right Tory misrule, particularly the decline in the National Health Service and the railways, as well as the Brexit chaos. It's a poisoned chalice though, and it may take more than one term even to begin to make inroads into the mess which the Tories left behind them.

>335 brone:

Has Dietrich von Hilderbrand been called "rigid" or "authoritarian"? I hadn't heard that. But you're right that von Hildebrand and Pope Benedict XVI were uncomfortable with some of the liturgical reforms, along with a number of others of their generation who were familiar with the old rite for most of their lives. That's one of the reasons why the Church, for pastoral reasons, made an exception and allowed limited use of the old rite to continue, particularly for the elderly and infirm. Now there's hardly anyone still alive who can claim that distinction, and very few who can even claim to remember the old rite. I'm one of that generation who can remember it well, as I used to serve mass regularly in the old rite, and I certainly have no longing to return to it. The liturgy was reformed for very good reasons which are as valid now as they were at the time of Vatican II sixty years ago.

I'm certainly not praying for a conclave this year, as I would wish the Holy Father a few more fruitful and productive years before he retires or is called home by his heavenly Father, but God's will be done.

Edited to add: Let me reflect a little further on the exceptions in which the Church allowed limited use of the old liturgical rite for pastoral reasons, with a personal story. When I arrived in Sudan as a young missionary more than forty years ago, the Vatican II reforms were only just beginning to filter into that isolated and war-torn country (in fact it was not until 1982 that the local bishops' conference was able to organise a national retreat to introduce Vatican II to the priests). In our diocese was an elderly Italian priest who, by the time he died in 1991, had been a missionary for more than fifty years, first in Palestine and then in Sudan. He had no problem with saying the mass in the vernacular, which in our case was Arabic; as a missionary, he understood the importance of using a language which was accessible to the people, and classical Arabic, in which he was fluent, is a venerable, dignified, beautiful, poetic, sacred and even mystical language. However he struggled with many of the other changes to the liturgy. Eventually he said to the bishop and the handful of priests in the diocese, "I welcome the reforms in the liturgy which the Church is teaching, and I encourage you all to implement them for the good of the people. But please don't ask me to change what I have been used to doing for more than forty years as a priest; I'm too old for new things". His loyal, humble and respectful request was accepted and respected by the bishop and his colleagues, and the old Don continued to celebrate the mass in the style he had always done, without in any way questioning or challenging the teaching of the Church; quite the opposite, in fact, as he was very orthodox in his theology. He is the type of person that these exceptions were intended for in the immediate aftermath of the Vatican II reforms, not for a new generation who never (or barely) knew the old rite, and for many of whom it has become a rallying point in opposition to the teaching of the Church.

>338 brone:

That narrative about Keir Starmer during his time as Director of Public Prosecutions and Head of the Crown Prosecution Service is currently being pushed by right wing ideologues such as Elon Musk for political reasons, not out of any obvious concern for victims. BBC offers a more objective appraisal of Starmer's time in that office, which has also been examined by a number of official inquiries which are in the public domain.

I wasn't aware that Canada was being run by a 14 year old, nor that there was a Peronist Marxist running the Church. I think we can take that hyperbole with the same pinch of salt as we take the one about Starmer.

Edited to add: The right is trying to rewrite history with its toxic rhetoric on Britain’s rape gangs (Guardian)

Girls who have suffered terrible abuse are now being exploited by populists for their own ends...

>340 brone:

Well yes, I read the Guardian, and to the best of my knowledge neither I nor anyone else has ever denied that it is a left of centre publication, and proudly so in a climate where almost all other major British newspapers are now in the hands of right wing capitalists. But let me make three points. Firstly, the Guardian relies on trained journalists, professional standards, and fact checking, unlike many of the unregulated social media, whether right or left wing, Catholic or not. Secondly, I always acknowledge the source of anything I post on LT (or anywhere else, for that matter), and cite a link to it, so you and anyone else can read it in context and make your own judgement on it. Thirdly, although I do like to quote the Guardian and BBC as I think their journalism is usually of a high standard, I actually read a broad range of international news media, again both left and right wing, Catholic and secular, and make my personal judgements after balancing what I read, as well as comparing it with my personal experience and knowledge. If you look at all of my posts, you'll see that I also regularly cite other secular sources (CNN, Reuters, Al Jazeera, UN news, The New Humanitarian, etc) as well as Catholic media which include not only the likes of the National Catholic Reporter and the Tablet, both of which I presume you would describe as "progressive" (although I would use the term "mainstream"), but also "right wing" and self-styled "traditionalist" ones such as the National Catholic Register, Catholic Herald and websites owned by EWTN.

I'm struggling to find news of "a former British PM and defence minister arrested". I think if a former Prime Minister were to be arrested it would be headline news. I have found an article about a former Minister for Veterans, Ivor Caplin, who stepped down from parliament 20 years ago and nobody had ever heard of again until now. He was suspended from the Labour Party last year, and this month he was arrested on suspicion of engaging in online sexual communications with a child, after being involved in a sting operation carried out by a group of anti-paedophile vigilantes (link).

I'd be interested to hear what you mean by "obfuscating on the Southport massacre". I think most commentators have been quite clear that a British teenage boy was arrested for murder, and that right wing social media claims that he was an asylum seeker, which fuelled racist, xenophobic and Islamophobic riots in some parts of UK as well as a massive popular backlash against the rioters, were completely false. Without any obfuscation, Prime Minister Keir Starmer blamed the riots on "far-right thuggery” (link), said that the group had "hijacked the vigil for the victims with violence and thuggery" and "insulted the community as it grieves", and that those involved would "feel the full force of the law" (link). As it happens I was in Southport not long afterwards, and locals that I talked to were appalled and disgusted at the way extreme right wing elements were exploiting the tragedy. The local MP blamed "thugs" who travelled to Southport to use the deaths of three children "for their own political purposes", "people from outside the town", "thugs who had got the train in" (link). I was in another city where similar right wing protests were announced, but in fact only four protesters turned up while thousands of locals marched peacefully against racism and xenophobia.

>342 brone:

I've googled and I can't find anything recent under "Pakistani man Arrested in Wakefield". Can you point us to a link, please? Or, since you apparently don't like sharing links, can you give me an approximate date for the case your're referring to? There's a lot of Pakistani men in Wakefield and, as with any population anywhere, a small percentage of them get arrested from time to time.

>344 brone:

Indeed, but I'm still waiting for a link to the one you mention in >342 brone:. I'd like to read for myself about this particular crime, since you have highlighted it. But if one reads the British press, one becomes aware that sadly many men are raping women (and children), regardless of race, religion and nationality of either victims or perpetrators.

>346 brone:

So please give us a link. Why are you so unhelpful to your fellow LT members?

>343 John5918: Drone can't answer that without looking ridiculous.

The only sources included a couple of posts on Twitter, and a few posts on Face Book in mid-August of 2024. All the posts were made by Indians, and the posts on Twitter have apparently been taken down.

There's no legitimate news source for this supposed arrest of a Pakistani man in Wakefield. The video which purports to show this 'criminal' has him standing between two men who are not wearing police uniforms (faces never shown), but who are holding him captive by linking their arm through his arms. Surely the Wakefield Express would have mentioned this 'arrest' had it actually happened!

This is the danger in allowing people like Drone to post without fact checking.

>348 MsMixte:

Thanks. That's very helpful.

>351 brone:

An ad hominem response is a convenient way of dodging a question, but I think we were hoping for something of substance.

Look, nobody denies that there is a lot of rape in UK (and elsewhere), that there was a gang of men grooming and raping young girls in Yorkshire and beyond, that many of them were arrested and imprisoned, that there have been numerous investigations and inquiries since then, that as with most cases of sexual assault there have been questions raised about the way some of these cases were handled by the police and CPS... all of this is old news, was widely covered in the British and international press, and is still an active issue for many of those involved*.

But you made a specific claim about a particular Pakistani man arrested in Wakefield who said he didn't know that what he did was against the law, not about the more general issue of grooming. This is an important issue because in the UK, Europe and north America there have been and still are many men of all races who don't understand the laws about rape, which is why there has been a campaign in recent years to try and get men to understand consent, and that "no means no". In a horrific recent case in France more than fifty men repeatedly raped an elderly woman (link).

Now, I've tried to follow the references you posted, but the web addresses that you give appear to be incomplete and don't lead anywhere. I note that the BBC one seems to be about Leeds, not Wakefield. When I google Toronto Sun and Wakefield I get nothing. When I google BBC, rape and Wakefield I get stories about rapists which have nothing to do with Pakistanis or grooming, plus stories about the more than twenty men jailed for grooming and rape in November 2024. But I still can't find any specific mention of "Pakistani man Arrested in Wakefield didn't believe when caught raping a 14-year-old white girl was against the law". Incidentally, it's not "raping a white girl" which is illegal; it's raping anybody which is against the law.

So, either (1) you have a credible online source which you could share with us but you refuse to do so, in which case there is really no point in continuing a conversation about it with you if you make statements and then refuse to follow up on them; conversations are two way things; or (2) you don't have a credible source which >348 MsMixte: and I and others can refer to, in which case there is also no point in talking about it, and no reason why we should believe it.

* Edited to add: A new review of grooming gangs has just been announced by the current government, so it is still a live issue.

>352 John5918: I should point out that the accompanying text of at least one of the videos (and I could only find video, nothing in print) of this so called 'arrest' made sure to point out that this was a 'white Christian girl'.

The 'white and Christian' is apparently what has upset drone, not the rape and/or sexual abuse of other women and girls who are not white and who are not Christian.

I shouldn't have to point out that the Toronto Sun's link specifically identifies the post as OPINION. There may be facts embedded in the opinion, but 'tens of 1000s of poor white girls' returns to the problem that the focus is on WHITE girls, not ALL women and girls--at least to brone.

>353 MsMixte:

Yes, although given the fact that Christianity is no longer very prominent in UK, it's quite possible that she wouldn't identify as Christian but as "no religion". But that's irrelevant. The point which brone is missing is that women and girls of all races and religions (including white Christian) are being raped daily by men of all races and religions (including white Christian). As we speak, far more Muslim women and girls are being raped daily in Sudan, and far more black women in DRC, than white Christian girls in England. Singling out one race and/or religion of either victim or perpetrator does not help, and indeed hinders, addressing the global problem of rape. Let's be outraged by all rape and sexual assault and do what we can to prevent it, rather than politicising it.

The mass rape of an elderly white woman, Gisèle Pelicot, was orchestrated by a white man, her husband. The US president-elect, a white man, has raped at least one white woman, and he has also shown little understanding about rape and consent, as he has said, "I don't even wait. And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. ... Grab 'em by the pussy. You can do anything" (link). The former has sparked global outrage; the latter appears to have been "cancelled" (a term brone likes) by much of the US media and establishment, and will almost certainly not be appearing on the right wing social media which is spouting misleading information about rape in UK.

>355 brone:

Well yes, that's exactly what I said in >252 brone: and >354 John5918: that there's a huge number of rapes in England. Thanks for the detailed statistics. You don't cite any sources for them though, but they look believable. But you still haven't shed any more light on your Pakistani man arrested in Wakefield who didn't believe that raping a 14-year-old white girl was against the law. And the statistics don't say anything about race or religion of victims or perpetrators.

Edited to add: Here's a reaction from the British police:

Police fear ‘rightwing driven’ reaction to grooming gangs will harm victims (Guardian)

Senior police officers fear that government pressure to reinvestigate closed historic cases of gang grooming could make it harder to catch those targeting children today... police figures showing that just a fraction of child sexual abuse allegations – 0.6% – relate to grooming and abuse by male groups or gangs. Multiple senior police sources told the Guardian of concern that teams combating sexual violence against women and children may be diverted from their work. One described it as “kneejerking”, another said the government was reacting to a “right-wing driven, political cause”...

Yesterday's reading for morning prayer in the Divine Office (the Liturgy of the Hours) was Ephesians 4:29-32 and, in the context of this and other conversations in the LT Christianity group which occasonally get a bit heated, and which often speak harshly of individuals and groups of people who are all God's beloved children no matter what they believe or do, I thought it a timely reminder to myself and the Christianity group.

I'm not sure which translation of the bible is used in my 1976 breviary, but it's one I can relate to: "Do not use harmful words in talking. Use only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you. And do not make God's Holy Spirit sad... Get rid of all bitterness, passion, and anger. No more shouting or insults. No more hateful feelings of any sort. Instead, be kind and tender-hearted to one another, and forgive one another, as God has forgiven you in Christ."

The old Catholic Douay-Rheims translation says, "Let no evil speech proceed from your mouth; but that which is good, to the edification of faith, that it may administer grace to the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God... Let all bitterness, and anger, and indignation, and clamour, and blasphemy, be put away from you, with all malice. And be ye kind one to another; merciful, forgiving one another, even as God hath forgiven you in Christ."

I also like the Message Bible, perhaps not technically as accurate as some of the others, but still faithful to the original context, using modern idiom: "Watch the way you talk. Let nothing foul or dirty come out of your mouth. Say only what helps, each word a gift. Don’t grieve God. Don’t break his heart. His Holy Spirit, moving and breathing in you, is the most intimate part of your life, making you fit for himself. Don’t take such a gift for granted. Make a clean break with all cutting, backbiting, profane talk. Be gentle with one another, sensitive. Forgive one another as quickly and thoroughly as God in Christ forgave you."

Challenging indeed!

>358 brone:

Ah well, I wasn't really expecting >357 John5918: to bear fruit!

>359 John5918: You aren't the only one.

If I haven't said this before, I'll say it now.

If I was looking for a version of Christianity which was at the very least inclusive, I would run from a church where people like brone exist.

All I see in brone is a person who is filled with anger. There's no love there. There's nothing in anything brone says which makes me feel that God loves me.

>361 MsMixte: Thank you.

>360 brone:

Just a few responses to the bits of this post which I can make any sense of.

Under a catholic sky diversity is opportunity for all. Equity is a simple application of justice. Inclusion is a charitable order of things as they should be.

Yes. 100%. And as you suggest, sadly this is not the way of the world. So what do we do? Abandon the Catholic way in favour of political ideologies, whether right or left wing, or continue to be faithful to these Christian ideals (and indeed commandments)?

a campaign of cancel culture

This is a favourite narrative which the right wing is trying to create. However in fact the right wing cancel culture began a long time ago. The powerful silenced the powerless, the winners silenced the losers, the oppressors silenced the victims, the upper classes and capitalist elites silenced the voices of the poor, patriarchy silenced the voices of women, white supremacy silenced the voices of BAME people, imperial and colonial powers silenced the voices of their oppressed colonial subjects, governments silenced the voices of those who challenged them in the name of "national security", the US right wing political establishment silenced the voices of those who publicly disagreed with it during the McCarthy era, Christianity silenced (or at least muted) the voices of non-Christians... the list goes on. What you now call "cancel culture" is merely a redressing of the balance. Previously unheard voices are now in the mainstream, which challenges the comfort zones of those for whom being the sole or dominant voice had become the default option which they considered to be their right. They have not been silenced, but their voice is now just one amongst many in the market place of ideas, and people can judge it on its merits just as they are now free to judge all the other ideas on their merits. Misogynist, racist, homophobic, Islamophobic, white supremacist, xenophobic and other such voices are indeed being judged, and people are challenging, rejecting and ignoring them.

The right wing rejection of DEI has distinct parallels with South Africa, in my view. For four hundred years white people enjoyed huge privileges and black people were oppressed and silenced (in what was a "cancel culture"). There were major industries (such as the post office and the railways) which intentionally employed only whites in all but menial posts, many prime areas where non-whites were not allowed to live, etc. After democracy came to South Africa in 1994, the government began a programme of affirmative action to try to redress the imbalance. Many whites complained that now they couldn't get jobs because black people were being favoured, but what was now happening was that, for the first time in South African history, job applications were now open to everybody, and the jobs were now going to the best qualified individuals rather than automatically going to the white (and usually male) candidate. I know this is an imperfect analogy, but I think the dynamics of the complaints about DEI are similar.

caring for a "stranger" becomes a vice when it entails not taking care of your own family first, the common good of one's own nation

No, I don't think this is what the gospel teaches, and somewhere amongst all the rambling and repetitive threads in this group it has been debunked. Jesus explicitly chooses someone from outside the family and nation in his parable of the good Samaritan. In Matthew's gospel Jesus simply says, when you welcome a stranger you have welcomed me, when you fail to do so, it is me that you have neglected (Matthew 25). He doesn't add the qualifier, "but only if your own family and people from your neighbourhood are also doing OK". It's a hard teaching, but then being a Christian is hard. As for one's own nation, nations as we know them are a 19th century European construction which may have served a useful political purpose during a certain period of history (although even that is arguable) but which are currently in a state of flux, and are certainly not a gospel imperative. Incidentally, are you aware that some of the poorest countries in the world - Uganda, Kenya, South Sudan, Ethiopia, Lebanon, Jordan, etc - are welcoming the largest number of refugees? These countries are hosting millions of refugees despite the fact that many of their own people are suffering hardship and poverty. If President Trump has his way, those last two will soon be hosting even more refugees, while right wingers in the richest nation in the world complain about the comparatlively small number of migrants to your country.

But all of this misses the point of my >357 John5918:. One can express one's views freely without using "harmful words", "bitterness, passion, and anger", "shouting or insults", or "hateful feelings of any sort", to use the words of the bible. One can make one's point using "helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you". This is a Christianity group, and it seems to me (and apparently to >361 MsMixte: and others who sometimes contact me privately) that we can disagree on many things, and we can express that disagreement freely and unequivocally, but we can do so in a Christian and charitable manner, one which indeed builds up and does good. If you are against DEI, or homosexuals, or transgender people, or immigrants, you are free to say so. Your ideas will no doubt be challenged in the free market place of ideas, and that's a learning experience for all of us. But in the Christianity group I think that we should express our ideas and beliefs in a way which is charitable, courteous, civil, inviting, measured and accurate, without making "God's Holy Spirit sad".

Talking of "cancel culture", it seems that President Trump is imposing a massive cancel campaign on scientists and scientific research in the USA.

Article today in Dutch newspaper "Volkskrant", deepl-translated: 'Everyone is afraid': Dutch researchers in the US on science in times of Trump

'What is happening here is censorship on an unprecedented scale'... 'putting the chopping axe into science almost unnoticed'... 'We have been given gag orders, we are not allowed to communicate with people abroad'... 'We are also not allowed to be in group calls. Only communication with one other person at a time is allowed'... He canceled cooperation with the World Health Organization (WHO)... And that's just a small sample of all the decisions. Scientists who try to follow them are growing weary... the U.S. government, under threat of dismissal, is demanding that colleagues in government service, including scientists at national institutions, denounce each other when they continue to work on diversity policy...

Edited to add: Saying ‘women’ is not allowed, but ‘men’ and ‘white’ are OK? I’m (not) shocked (Guardian)

Thanks to Donald Trump’s sweeping executive orders attacking “gender ideology” and DEI programs, the word “women” – along with a number of other terms – is quite literally being erased. The likes of Nasa have been busy scrubbing mentions of terms related to women in leadership from public websites in an attempt to comply with Trump’s executive orders, for example. Agencies like the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) have taken down numerous webpages related to gender in the wake of Trump’s orders – although a federal judged ordered on Tuesday that they should be reinstated. Meanwhile, the National Science Foundation (NSF) has an internal list of hot-button words (which include “women”, “gender”, “minority”, “biases”) that they are cross-referencing against active research projects and grant applications. The Washington Post reports that once one of these very dangerous words is identified, staff then have to go through a flowchart to see whether a research project should be flagged for further review. The National Institutes of Health and multiple university research departments are going through a similar dystopian exercise. Researchers at the University of California at San Diego, for example, have said their work is now at risk if it contains language deemed potentially problematic, including the word “women”...

>365 brone:

As a matter of interest, how old are you? From your posts I rather thought you were of the very "boomer" generation that you so despise, born between 1946 and 1964. I'm 70, born 1954, old enough to remember in my formative years what the Catholic Church was like before the Vatican II reforms began to be implemented, and to rejoice in the huge difference they have made to the life of the Church, thanks be to God.

Brone, I didn't say you were IN a church of hate. I said "brone is a person who is filled with anger. There's no love there. There's nothing in anything brone says which makes me feel that God loves me.".

You are filled with anger. It shows in your choice of words of disrespect for the Pope, and the choice of words for all those who are sinners.

" 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’?"

This is one of the most important passages--at least to me--in the New Testament. The New Testament is what makes you a Christian, not the Old Testament.

Jesus answers the Pharisees thusly in Matthew 22:38: "This is the great and first commandment. "Deuteronomy 6:5: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."

But the second greatest command is this: Matthew 22:39: "And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.".

Where's the love, brone?

>365 brone:

I think your post once again illustrates the point I've tried to make in >357 John5918: and the last paragraph of >363 John5918:. You have points of disagreement with the Holy Father, you feel strongly about homosexuality, abortion, gun control, climate change, etc, and it's perfectly valid for you to express these opinions - your right of free speech. But why can't you do it in a respectful, civil and charitable manner? Why do you insist on using disparaging terms like "Bergoglio", "the rainbow reich" (I still have no idea what that actually means), "old gray haired boomers running the church", etc? And why do you project motives onto whole groups of people, such as "most of these priests do not say out right we believe in Abortion or an active homosexual life. Yet in the name of inclusivity, they cast doubts"? I have yet to meet a priest who believes in abortion; where there is legitimate disagreement is on what is the best way to go about opposing abortion. Of course we also disagree on the consistent ethic of life; abortion is not the only example of the "culture of death" which Popes Benedict XVI and Francis have warned against.

But I submit to you that the Catholic Church must always be on guard against errors and ambiguous implications that can put us in danger of falling overboard whether on the port or the staboard side of the barque of Peter

I agree 100%. It saddens me to see how the "errors and ambiguous implications" of far right wing political ideology are contaminating the Catholic Church and indeed causing some to "fall overboard", particularly in the USA.

And finally, as a missionary for neary fifty years, I have also been "involved in bringing hundreds of converts into this church", thanks be to God. We have found that constantly attacking, disrespecting and disparaging the pope, the bishops and priests, the structures and teaching of the Church, is not really a very effective way of evangelising. Maybe you've found a new and better model, attacking and denigrating the very institution that you are bringing people into? Call me old fashioned, but I think I'll stick to the traditional tried and tested way, namely "love thy neighbour as thyself".

Another example of one of the poorest countries in the world preparing to welcome the stranger, "brothers and sisters seeking relief from dire situations", with the Catholic Church in the forefront. Reminds me of the Catholic Diocese of Malakal in South Sudan, itself one of the poorest dioceses in the world after decades of war, and with a large portion of the diocese underwater due to several years of floods, which threw itself wholeheartedly into welcoming refugees fleeing from the war in Sudan which began a couple of years ago. Thankfully most of the Catholic bishops in the USA as well as many ordinary lay people are also distinguishing themselves in speaking out on behalf of refugees and migrants, unlike the US government (including a Catholic vice president) and one prominent US Catholic voice on this forum.

The Executive Secretary of the Episcopal Commission for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerants (CEPAMI) in Angola has said the Southern African nation is ready to welcome refugees from the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), who are fleeing the latest cycle of violence in the Central African nation. In an interview with ACI Africa on Wednesday, February 12, Sr. Carla Luísa Frei Bamberg said that the Church, through the Pastoral for Migrants, is on alert at border Dioceses, particularly in Uíge and Mbanza Congo, to welcome the refugees. “We are prepared at the borders, especially in the Dioceses bordering Congo, to ensure that any arrivals are met with care and support,” Sr. Carla said, and added, “Our animators in the Pastoral for Migrants are ready to receive these individuals not as intruders, but as brothers seeking relief from dire situations”...

I'm having some difficulty posting the link, but it's from AC Africa here.

Can't remember in which thread we discussed "pro-life" and "consistent ethic of life" issues, but here's a reaffirmation of "a commitment to work towards sustaining life and caring for creation in the two countries that have experienced decades of violence".

Church in Sudan, South Sudan Commits to Sustaining Life in First-Ever Lenten Campaign (ACI Africa)

Members of the Sudan and South Sudan Catholic Bishops’ Conference (SSS-CBC) have launched their first-ever Lenten campaign, expressing a commitment to work towards sustaining life and caring for creation in the two countries that have experienced decades of violence. In their pastoral exhortation for the inaugural campaign through Caritas South Sudan, the SSS-CBC members also underscored the urgent need to foster justice and peace in conflict-affected areas across both nations. “We commit ourselves to sustaining life and promoting sustainable livelihoods under the guiding theme: ‘Holiness of life, Reconciliation and Healing, Social Justice, Livelihood, and Environmental Care’,” the Bishops said in their message dated Wednesday, March 5. They added, “Our call is to care for one another, care for creation, and work for justice and peace in our troubled lands of the Sudan and South Sudan.” In their statement, the Bishops urged the people of God in the two nations to prioritize the protection of creation as responsible stewards, embracing Pope Francis’ Encyclical Letter on care for our common home, Laudato Si...

>371 brone:

Just for the record, climate change is not "the most hotly debated scientific study of our day". While details vary and develop, the broad strokes are accepted by virtually all serious scientists. The "hot debate" is only part of right wing political ideology, not of scientific study.

>373 brone: American Bishops are in a panic mode

That's a strong (and dare I add hyperbolic?) statement. I've googled "American Bishops are in a panic mode" and I'm finding headlines such as "US Bishops Panic As Funding Dries Up" and "Bishops Politicized The Faith And Are Panicking", but nothing about panicking due to the reasons you give. I would say that US bishops are extremely concerned (albeit not "in panic mode") about the new government policies on migrants, and a number of bishops have spoken out strongly, supported by Pope Francis (link).

The bald statement "American bishops" also suggests that it is a united position being taken by the USCCB, which I think is far from the case. Sadly, US bishops are not united, and some appear to be at odds with both the global leadership and global consensus of the Catholic Church.

>375 brone: that's why they are called, what's that you said yes "American bishops"

Actually I'm quoting what you said, "American bishops", and part of what I'm saying is that "American bishops" do not exist as a united monolithic bloc. Many American bishops are in tune with the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church - I know some of them personally. A smaller number of American bishops are out of tune with the Church and even appear to have allowed a political ideology to influence their thinking. So talking of "American bishops" as a bloc gives a false impression.

>356 John5918:

Back to grooming gangs. Here's a recent example, one chap from Hackney (east London) and the other from West Sussex, not from Wakefield or anywhere in Yorkshire. No mention of Pakistanis, but they do feature extreme right wing ideology:

Blackmailing girls and encouraging suicide: the young British men in online gangs (Guardian)

>378 John5918:

Your obsession with 'Right Wing' ideology is unhealthy. Right wing and left wing do not mean the same thing across the globe. This is a Christian group not a left-wing propaganda group. Either you believe in Christ as the only path to salvation or not. But if you are Christian, it seems that you're disguising your comments with left wing propaganda, using Christianity as a tool, to glorify yourself? Either way, you seem to blame right wing for everything without realizing how silly it all is.

>379 TheToadRevoltof84:

Have you read all the posts in which brone implies that Pakistanis are responsible for much of the grooming and rape in the UK (my apologies if I misrepresent or overstate brone's view)? I think it's perfectly valid to cite one of the many examples where grooming is not being carried out by Pakistanis, and to mention what is motivating the offenders. In this case it happens to be right wing ideology. I don't believe it is an "unhealthy obsession" to name that reality.

if you are Christian, it seems that you're disguising your comments with left wing propaganda, using Christianity as a tool

I'm sorry if that's your view, but there's a whole other thread, on which both you and I have recently posted, about those who use Christianity as a tool for right wing propaganda. I certainly don't believe anyone on this thread or indeed in this group is using Christianity as a tool for left wing propaganda, but I suppose you and I will continue to disagree on that one.

Right wing and left wing do not mean the same thing across the globe

I'm not sure about that. If you mean that there is a broad spectrum from left to right and different countries occupy different parts of that spectrum, then of course that is true. It is generally agreed across the globe that both parties in the USA are right of centre, with one being much further right than the other. What you might consider to be leftist is certainly left of your current administration, but is still right of centre by most global standards. But despite that, surely there is fairly wide agreement about what sort of policies and actions describe the left end of the spectrum as opposed to those which describe the right?

you seem to blame right wing for everything without realizing how silly it all is

In that post I don't think I was "blaming" the right wing for anything, simply giving an example of two particular offenders whose motivation was not that which has been promoted by brone. But don't you realise how silly it all is to obsess about "left wing propaganda", or "Marxists" in your recent post on a parallel thread?

>377 brone:

Back to American bishops.

Bishop condemns Trump’s ‘war on the poor’ at border vigil (Tablet)

‘We say to all those who live in fear of deportation: the Church stands with you in this hour of darkness.’ Bishop Mark Seitz of El Paso, the chairman of the US Catholic Bishops Conference’s Committee on Migration, delivered strong words and a warning on Monday to the administration of President Donald Trump over its escalating crackdown against immigrants and asylum seekers along the country’s southern border and nationwide... Through indiscriminate arrests and deportation of immigrants, a ban on the granting of asylum to refugees from violence in their home countries, and escalating attacks against church and non-profit agencies that provide migrants with humanitarian and legal aid, Bishop Seitz said the new administration has become actively engaged in a “war on the poor”. “If we do not speak out, if we do not act, this war will have no end. And we will act,” he pledged, “and will do so non-violently, under the sign of the cross”...

>380 John5918:

I apologize for using the terms in rebuttal.

Conservatives, read right wing, in the US want to downsize government. The goal is to keep the government from controlling everything because they will abuse us. Every example in history proves this true. I believe that everywhere else in the world, Fascism or powerful government that has a protective state first view is considered right wing. In the US, the left likes to use the government for distribution of material gain and 'freedom' so that more people can feel included and do what they believe fulfills them. In Europe, that is fairly similar. The confusion is when people view the removal of government as removal of rights, they begin to see that as thought control or fascistic behavior. Any time you obsess over something being provided to you by the State, to the point of needing it to feel fulfilled, you are worshipping the thing and being abused by the State.

In another thread I did post an article, because it deals with the disorder that many are fighting on the left in the US.

https://lawliberty.org/the-philosophy-underlying-dei/

The Philosophy Underlying DEI
Allen Porter

....The formulation “expanding the democratic revolution” is due to the “post-Marxist” theorists Ernesto Laclau and Chantal Mouffe, who set forth the program for a PIL politics as well as its underlying theory in an influential 1985 book titled Hegemony and Socialist Strategy: Towards a Radical Democratic Politics. Three features of their treatment are particularly worth mentioning in this context: (1) the only grounds for leftist unity are contingently pragmatic/strategic, (2) identitarian pan-politicization as the core imperative of PIL, and (3) a discourse-theoretical understanding of politics.

First, because PIL is anti-metaphysical, the only possible basis for the political unity of the leftist identitarian coalition is contingent and pragmatic: strategic alliance in opposition to a common enemy. This is why “intersectionality” has become so prominent in PIL discourse. The idea is that all oppressions are connected, so that one cannot fight, say, climate change, without also addressing racism, sexism, etc. Since there are no metaphysical or deep ideological reasons for political unity, and since the various coalitional constituencies inevitably have diverging interests, keeping the coalition together requires the dogmatic adoption of a “new ‘common sense,’” as Laclau and Mouffe put it. In other words, PILs can’t rationally justify why the pursuit of racial justice must also address the politics of sex and gender, but the coalition threatens to pull apart if its members don’t believe this, so it simply must be believed, as a matter of “common sense.”...

>382 TheToadRevoltof84: Conservatives, read right wing, in the US want to downsize government. The goal is to keep the government from controlling everything because they will abuse us.

That's certainly the right wing rallying cry, but I wonder if it truly represents the reality? Europe and South America have had more than their fair share of right wing fascist governments - would anyone claim that Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Pinochet, etc were not absusing their people and trying to control everything? And it appears that at this very moment the USA has a right wing government which is trying to control everything - telling libraries which books they can have, telling people what pronouns they can use or which bathrooms they can use, telling universities what they can say and how they should deal with protesting students, telling the military how it should present military history, telling NASA how to choose astronauts for the next moon landing, telling museums what they can display (link), making it more onerous for citizens to exercise their right to vote, reducing people's access to due legal process, etc, etc. Seems to me that previous moderate right of centre governements in the USA (what you might call left wing) have given citizens far more individual freedom.

>383 John5918:

Telling school libraries to keep sexual content from underage children, which is a current law in any other context, is a more common sense position than fascist.

Telling entities to stop discrimination in hiring that is against Civil Rights, is not telling them anything new.

It actually isn't hard to vote, it needs to be taken seriously. It shouldn't be easy to ballot harvest and abuse others rights that really don't care to partake, either.

These are stretching and weak examples you provide. Maybe in another thread I'll begin some examples of the Oligarchy abusing Americans, since it is off topic here. You have been conditioned pretty well, I see. That's natural of a Catholic. You're certainly not stupid. I believe you've learned many, many things, but maybe your blessings have distorted any effort for conviction?

>384 TheToadRevoltof84:

Libraries are not only being told to keep sexual material away from minors; as you say that was already the position and is in many other countries. There are already plenty of laws preventing discrimination in hiring, and when they are breached, there are lawsuits. They don't need a president to micromanage that process. It is hard to vote if you're from an element of the population which finds it difficult or too expensive to get a photoe ID, or which has other obstacles put in their way. That's a playbook which many budding dictatorships have learned. I first came across it 40 years ago in Sudan; everybody has to have a national ID in order to vote, but getting one is made exceptionally difficult for those groups who might be expected to vote against the government. I think it's you who is providing "stretching and weak" counter-examples, and ignoring the deeper and broader examples which I offered.

>385 John5918:

Umm, no. There's zero reason that people should be dragged into courts for porn in gradeschools or for losing a job to a less qualified candidate due to race. If discrimination must be banned to keep it from happening, it certainly won't have been the first time.

80%, including the 'oppressed' in the US agree that ID is necessary. Our minority population isn't too dumb or too poor to get ID. We aren't the Sudan, either, so it's easy to get. I'm not even sure why you think our minority population is so dumb or so poor or incapable, but they aren't... They can and do have ID.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/02/07/bipartisan-support-for-early-in-...

>386 TheToadRevoltof84: 80%

So 20% don't? That's an election result changing percentage. To be credible, democracy needs to encourage as many people as possible to vote, not to put pointless bureaucratic obstacles in their path. There has been zero evidence of voter fraud (except by a few Trump supporters) under the old system, so why the need for change? And the undemocratic and outdated system whereby the popular vote is not the ultimate decider, but it's up to a small elite Electoral College who may or may not respect the popular vote (they have done so far, but the right wing has been making worrying noises about the possibility of not doing so), is a topic for another time. If the electoral system needs changing, surely this is a greater priority than forcing people to bring photo ID with them to vote?

But again, you pick isolated examples, and of course there are always such examples, but they don't negate the bigger picture. There has never been porn in grade schools (is that what we would call a primary school on this side of the Pond?), although there have been local debates on certain controversial books, including the bible, which is full of sex and violence. And discrimination against candidates because of their race? That's been going on for centuries and still is, with candidates who do not belong to the majority ethnic identity group suffering discrimination regardless of their qualifications. It's going to get worse now that your new government has decided to abolish any mention of this imbalance. While the public narrative is full of the exploits and qualifications of white people, the government is apparently now trying to erase any public mention of minority groups, even including some of its military veterans and heroes who usually get great respect in your militaristic nation.

But this is a pointless conversation, as clearly you and I have completely different worldviews, and neither is going to convince the other.

>387 John5918:

Democracy only matters, sometimes...? Anyway, you're wrong about the entire lot on this one and in the US everyone complains about voter fraud when convenient. You just have to get beyond your misinformation to see that it actually is a problem and that Democrats and Republicans both know it. The left still has election deniers when the moment springs.

I did pray for you per your request to brone in the other thread. Whether you're using God or you think he's using you, I believe you're not so bad John.

>389 brone:

Your statement that billions of taxpayers' money is being laundered ("washing money") through charities, "80% of which goes to fatten some church members", is pure nonsense. While NGOs have their flaws, like any organisations, they are doing a huge amount of good with whatever money they can raise from both private donations and governments, money which is not only saving lives (a good Christian value?) but also contributing to making the world safer for everybody, including those taxpayers.

I find it strange that a Catholic is referring to other Catholics as "Bergoglians" simply because they show respect for our pope (yours and mine). Did we used to speak of "Ratzingerians" or "Wojtyłians" or, for that matter, "Pacellians"? Did you and I not used to sing the hymn "God bless our pope... the great the good" as young Catholics?

In my experience the people facing actual "firebombs, bullets, and death threats" are those in the front line of humanitarian work, but who will now be facing even more danger as a result of the massive cuts in aid funding.

PS: As for your concern about the burden on working class taxpayers, wouldn't it make sense for DOGE to turn its attention to reforming the tax system and making it more efficient (and also fairer), so that the fat cats, the millionaires and billionares, shoulder a greater share commensurate with their astronomical incomes?

>391 brone:

Well, all I can say is that you once again produce a lot of innuendo and allegations against USAID, CRS and others without producing one shred of evidence.

I don't know what you mean by "social engineering welfare agency". If you mean saving the lives of children, women, men, the elderly, the sick and disabled, well I think that is a very Christian thing to do. You're right that "it is illegal in the US to use Taxpayer monies for religious purposes", and in my experience USAID has been very strict about that. There is a very clear distinction between back-donor funds (such as USAID) which are used for schools, hospitals, HIV/AIDS prevention and treatment, humanitarian relief, peacebuilding, etc, and private donor funding which can be used for religious activities such as building churches and funding catechetical programmes and the like.

You don't answer my question about labelling your fellow Catholics as "Bergoglian" simply because they respect our pope. But I think Tantum ergo and Holy God we praise thy name are beautiful hymns.

>393 brone:

I have no idea what the going rate for NGO CEO salaries is in the USA, so I can't comment on that. CRS has its headquarters near to the national capital, as does virtually every other major NGO in virtually every other country in the world, for obvious reasons. Those 5,000 employees are spread all over the world and are involved in the things I mentioned above, namely saving the lives of children, women, men, the elderly, the sick and disabled in some of the poorest countries in the world, in war zones, and in both natural and human-made disasters, while facing the "firebombs, bullets, and death threats" to which you referred earlier.

Incidentally, a quick Google search suggests that CRS salaries for US citizens range from around 30 to a 120 thousand US dollars. It seems the average salary in the USA is around 66k, and the average professional salary is around 140k, so CRS is well within that range. I cannot find any credible sources for their CEO's salary, only a secondhand report on social media which includes other allegations against CRS which I know to be untrue. I'll see if I can find out from contacts in the USA. Full disclosure: I've met Sean Callahan from time to time in the course of my work in Sudan and South Sudan, both before and after he became CEO.

Yes, I know what "-ian" on the end of a word indicates, but you haven't answered my question. Why is a Catholic referring to other Catholics by the surname of the pope plus "-ian" simply because they follow tradition and respect the pope? Surely you, and every other faithful Catholic in the world, is by definition also a "Bergoglian", just as we were all "Ratzingerians" and "Wojtyłians", so the word is completely redundant. I'm too young to have called myself a "Pacellian" as I was only three years old when he died, but I still sang "God bless our pope".

I've said many times that your use of the word "gaslighting" doesn't seem to match any of the definitions that I can find online, so I ask once again if you could explain what you mean by it and what exactly you are accusing me of, although I suspect that once again you are not prepared to answer that. I hope you'll prove me wrong this time.

Edited to add: I've just talked to a retired Catholic Church insider in the USA, and it's probably true that the CRS CEO is earning about 640k. This compares with an average salary for CEOs in the USA of around 900k, with a range between about 690k and 1.1 million, so he's at the low end. I was also told that in a recent survey of US international NGOs' effectiveness as judged by their local partners overseas, CRS came out at the top end, so it sounds as if he's doing a good job for his pay.

Incidentally, are you aware that US Secretary of State Marco Rubio has been a staunch supporter and defender of USAID for many years? I wonder why he has suddenly changed his mind?

>392 John5918:

https://www.lepantoin.org/wp/a-question-of-charity/

Some points in that article:

"A very wise priest – commenting on the exorbitant salaries of those “doing charity” – once said to me, “Very often people start off doing good, and end up doing well.”"

The Catholic Charities of Baltimore (aka Associated Catholic Charities, INC)

The senior employee for Catholic Charities of Baltimore is William J. McCarthy, Jr, and his salary and benefits total $510,904. With a total revenue of $127.6 million (52% of which came from government grants), $92.9 million – 73% of the revenue – paid salaries and compensation.

Catholic Charities of New Hampshire

The senior employee for Catholic Charities of New Hampshire is Thomas E. Blonski, and his salary and benefits total $336,785. With a total revenue of $92.9 million, $40.1 million – 43% of the revenue – paid salaries and compensation.

Catholic Charities Neighborhood Services

The senior employee for Catholic Charities Neighborhood Services is Emmie Glynn Ryan, and her salary and benefits total $346,005. With a total revenue of $118.8 million (71% of which came from government grants), $61.7 million – 52% of the revenue – paid salaries and compensation.

Some other tid-bits

https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=64442

https://www.complicitclergy.com/2022/12/08/are-u-s-bishops-complicit-in-the-traf...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldJla3TZ0p8

>394 John5918:

Rubio probably just got access to the level of corruption and decided that needed to get shutdown.

>395 TheToadRevoltof84:

So all those salaries of NGO CEOs are way below the US average for CEOs. Handling annual budgets of over a hundred million dollars, as well as being responsible for the lives of thousands of employees, many of them in difficult and dangerous situations, and hundreds of thousands of beneficiaries, is hard work and a big responsibility. A labourer is worthy of their hire, and to attract and retain high quality people you are competing in a labour market which is paying much higher salaries to top people. And just think how much tax revenue they are contributing to the USA, something which seems to concern brone.

>397 John5918:

And they get most of their money from government funding! All of that tax revenue is simply a return of what they got from the government! and I do love the quote:

"A very wise priest – commenting on the exorbitant salaries of those “doing charity” – once said to me, “Very often people start off doing good, and end up doing well.”"

So being complicit in trafficking of lives and drugs, well, no biggie, because hey, they give back a portion of their massive government funded salaries back into taxes!

>398 TheToadRevoltof84:

You present no evidence whatsoever of corruption and fraud in USAID. You merely show that NGO CEOs are well paid for their work, albeit below the average for US CEOs.

Look, I'm not in favour of high salaries, and I certainly don't think the massive gap between rich and poor in the USA is a good thing. But the USA operates a free market capitalist system whether we like it or not, and NGOs are forced to recruit within that system.

I first stuck my toe into the international humanitarian field half a century ago. In those days many relief initiatives were founded and led by talented amateurs, many of them missionaries or former missionaries, or people who had already worked overseas as volunteers. It worked to a certain degree. Many of the early leaders I met had cut their teeth in the Biafran war and its accompanying famine. Concern was founded by a pair of Irish missionaries, Goal by an Irish sports journalist, Band Aid by a rock star. Most of the Caritas agencies (which includes CRS in the USA, CAFOD in England and Wales, SCIAF in Scotland, Trócaire in Ireland, Secours Catholique in France, etc) were founded by the Catholic bishops in their own countries. Norwegian Church Aid originated in 1947 as a small fundraising drive by Norwegian (mainly Lutheran) churches for post-World War II relief while DanChurch Aid was founded in 1922 by Danish Lutheran churches for post-World War I relief. OXFAM was founded in 1942 by a group of Quakers and academics to do famine relief during World War II, and CARE was founded in 1945 to do post-war relief. All gradually broadened their scope as the need for aid became apparent in many parts of the world.

Then came the Ethiopian famines in the 1970s and 1980s, Sudan in the 1980s and 1990s, the Rwandan genocide, the recognition that long-term complex emergencies, including wars and recurrent famines, need to be treated differently from short-term natural disasters. Lessons were learned, experience gained, international standards for best practice were developed along with "do no harm" policies, famine early warning systems established, as well as conflict sensitivity and other cross-cutting analyses. At the same time governments starting giving more funding for aid, not necessarily out of humanitarian concern but in order to further their own foreign policy objectives and to project "soft power"*, and this introduced the most onerous reporting and accounting obligations which required the recruitment of highly-qualified (and thus highly paid) auditors and accountants. Aid workers have to be trained and qualified to do all this complex work, and while many still start off with a stint as volunteers, by the time they have attained a level of education, experience and maturity they have also taken on family responsibilities and have to start thinking about healthcare and retirement. Hence NGOs have to pay salaries which attract and retain that level of talent within the free market capitalist job economy. The days when massive humanitarian aid operations could be funded and implemented by a few well-meaning church volunteers running garage sales are long gone, I'm afraid.

* Which incidentally undermines the argument that aid is somehow a free gift, a burden on the US taxpayer. Governmental aid is part of foreign policy, and in fact most of the funding has to be spent in the USA, or on US goods and services, even though that is not necessarily the most effective nor efficient way of providing aid. It is, however, the best way for the US government to ensure that its money never leaves the country and in fact benefits the US economy. The main reason why so much food aid is available on the international scene is because the USA, EU, Canada and others use it as a vehicle to subsidise their own farming industries.

>396 TheToadRevoltof84:

You don't have a very high opinion of the intelligence of the current US Secretary of State. During his fourteen years as a high-ranking legislator he served on a Foreign Relations Sub-Committee on USAID, but in all that time he apparently missed this alleged high level of fraud and corruption, which only took a foreign-born billionaire CEO with no experience of either humanitarian aid or government just a few days to discover.

>399 John5918:

The grift of USAID is that what they're funding is of no value. They are sending money to useless programs as a guise and we're getting nothing useful accomplished. It is because of these massive operations that more people live in poverty, more slavery exists, and more people live in depression and anxiety. It is because of these massive government programs that we are in debt and the world isn't improving. It is, itself the fraud. The ONLY reason they exist is to pass money around. They report what they're doing and nothing is actually getting done. Just like the DOE, more money, worse results.

You're right, the days of humanitarian aid on a small scale are over, but not because it can't happen, it's because generations have grown up without responsibility and without God.

>400 John5918:

I can't speak to his intelligence and or his intelligence on the matter. The US political sphere is corrupt to the 'nth degree. However, USAID is, in itself a scam. The funding for most programs is obscene and useless.

https://nypost.com/2025/03/10/us-news/rubio-says-83-of-usaid-programs-to-be-scra...

>402 TheToadRevoltof84:

You're dodging the question. Why has he suddenly discovered this now? What's he been doing for the last fourteen years?

>401 TheToadRevoltof84:

Well, many people all over the world don't believe that what USAID has been funding is of no value, and there is evidence that people are already dying because the aid has been cut. US-funded HIV/AIDS programmes in Africa have had a very significant impact, as have many humanitarian relief interventions. All of that has been cut without any credible audit or evaluation. Even allowing that there is some fraud and waste, as there is in any large governmental organisation, closing down the entire aid programme without proper auditing, investigating and considering the potential damage is draconian. And US famers will soon be worrying about what to do with their grain surpluses now that there is no USAID to subsidise them.

generations have grown up without responsibility and without God

Well, no. In Africa, the Middle East and many other parts of the world generations have grown up having to shoulder huge responsibilities in the face of conflict, natural disasters and the climate crisis, and have grown up very much with God, whether that be of the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or other understanding of the divine. They are now left to face those responsibilities without the support of their sisters and brothers from richer nations, nations which bear at least part of the responsibility for some of the problems they are facing.

>403 John5918:

I don't think that Rubio is innocent. I think he's willing to go where political climate takes him. That doesn't make the initiative wrong.

>404 John5918:

Africa has been moving toward Christ. Other false religions have their own battles that I can't speak to.

>407 brone:

When you say "Bergoglians", do you mean Vatican officials who are trying to make ends meet? From what I can gather from your post, it's not abot "pray or pay", as people who want to pray (pilgrims) don't have to pay. I'm with you completely on not charging people to go into places of worship regardless of whether they are there to pray or simply to gawp, and I object to the Anglican cathedrals in London charging everybody for admission. But someone has to pay for the upkeep of these historic and sacred places, and if a way can be found of collecting some money from tourists, so be it.

>409 brone:

Actually the "evil parent" of CRS was the US Catholic bishops in 1943, to serve survivors of World War II. I believe they have since expanded that to serving 200 million people in more than one hundred countries who are survivors of other wars and disasters. And they do in fact fix potholes and dig wells - I've seen it with my own eyes.

The Better Way to Fix Foreign Aid (TIME)

There is also a common misunderstanding about how much is spent on aid and where it goes. Aid accounts for about a modest 1% of the U.S. federal budget. And rather than disappearing down “ratholes” overseas, most is paid out within the U.S. itself, mainly to American contractors that account for the majority of USAID spending. Such “tying” of aid is one among multiple ways donor countries help themselves... A few exceptional donors, such as Norway, recognize spillovers such as tax evasion and illicit financial flows, which harm all countries but hit poor ones disproportionately. Those donors and policy activists call for policy changes to stop them, and to help poorer countries exit from aid, chiefly by mobilizing domestic revenues. Angus Deacon, a professor at Princeton and winner of the Nobel Prize in economics, sees too many downsides in conventional aid. In his book, Economics in America, he urges us instead “to agitate for our own governments to stop doing the things that make it harder for poor countries to stop being poor.” In my view, this means: stop those spillovers and harmful aid conditionalities. And rather than kill off aid agencies, like the Trump Administration seems intent on, we could, as the renowned economist John Maynard Keynes advocated in 1936, start with the euthanasia of the rentier.

US bishops ‘heartbroken’ to end government partnership (Tablet)

The US Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) announced that it will not renew cooperative agreements with the federal government related to children’s services and refugee support. This “heartbreaking announcement” followed the Trump administration’s decision to cut funding from refugee programmes. Archbishop Timothy Broglio, president of the USCCB, said in a statement: “While this marks a painful end to a life-sustaining partnership with our government that has spanned decades across administrations of both political parties, it offers every Catholic an opportunity to search our hearts for new ways to assist.” He said the funding cut “forces us to reconsider the best way to serve the needs of our brothers and sisters seeking safe harbour from violence and persecution”... During the Biden administration, the federal government awarded more than $100 million annually to the USCCB, who redirected the funds to affiliated Catholic organisations that provided relevant services. In recent years, the federal funding has covered over 95 per cent of operating costs and expenses. Archbishop Broglio said the USCCB “cannot sustain the work on our own at current levels or in current form” and that the bishops “will work to identify alternative means of support for the people the federal government has already admitted to these programmes”...

>413 John5918: Evangelicals and many American Catholics voted for Donald Trump. But this has resulted in the defunding of vital programmes, such as that which you list above.

It also means that a possible 10 million or more Christians--mainly Catholics from Latin America--will be deported.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/2025/03/america-deport-10-million-christians-g...

https://apnews.com/article/trump-administration-migrants-deportation-christians-...

Fortunately, people like brone will step up and help bridge the gap in funding so that those in need can continue to receive aid.

>415 brone:

You don't cite sources for any of your allegations against Cardinal McElroy so I have no idea what you are talking about, but it's worth remembering that diocesan clergy do not take a vow of poverty and many of "the parish priests in the most conservative areas of Virginia and Maryland" and all over the USA have private funds from a host of different sources (including family, legacies, inheritance, private benefactors, etc) and own real estate*, as I believe it is called on your side of the Pond. Clergy having their own financial independence also reduces the burden on the diocese when it comes to retirement and end of life care. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it's the reality throughout the world and has been for a very long time. It's no doubt one of the reasons behind the Pact of the Catacombs which was eventually signed by more than five hundred bishops as Vatican II closed.

As for selling off real estate in the Diocese of San Diego, I'm sure it is one of the options that diocesan administrators are considering in terms of their bankruptcy, but selling off churches, schools, hospitals, etc, many of them historic and much-loved by their communities, is not a simple nor quick process, and is open to legal challenges.

* Arguably this was one of the principal reasons behind the enforcement of compulsory celibacy about 900 years ago. Bishops wanted more control over their priests who, in an age of subsistence farming, had a wife at home growing crops and tending the family cow and pig, and were thus fairly financially independent and could afford to stick two fingers up to the hierarchy. Not that the attempted enforcement of celibacy really worked in this regard!

>417 brone:

There is a thread in this group for tributes to Pope Francis, in case you would like to repost this tribute there. I agree with you entirely that what we need is love and truth, and if you look at some of those tributes to Francis you'll find that these are two of the things that people admired about him. As to your suggestion that all of the people from all over the world who loved him and paid positive tributes to him were due to his "political positions", you really do them an injustice. The affection felt towards him is from the vast majority of human beings, let alone Catholics or Christians, of all political persuasions while the disaffection is from a very small (but vocal and well-funded) group of dissident Catholics and far right politicians. So yes, we pray for his successor, and the vast majority of us Catholics will welcome him and respect him whoever he is, even if we disagree with him on some issues, rather than continually disparaging, denigrating, disrespecting and even mocking him as a small group of Catholics, mainly in the USA, have done to the late Pope Francis.

Edited to add: My prayers for a new conclave have been answered. Am I misinterpreting that, or were you praying for him to die? I do hope I'm wrong.

>417 brone:

Where is the love?

>421 brone: the Papacy is human again

It's good to hear that, although it's worth remembering that for much of the rest of the world and particularly the Global South it was Francis who made the papacy human again. It's great if the USA is now rejoining the rest of the world - that in itself may help to "make American great again". Fortunately Leo is not only a US citizen but also a Peruvian, so hopefully the rest of the world will also continue to feel a human papacy.

>424 brone: Would arming yourself to protect your women, children, property also be a deterrent to stop the atrocities

In my experience of insurgencies in Africa arming oneself in "self-defence" usually only prolongs the conflict and leads to more violence.

>427 brone:

Swedish cardinal clarifies Society of St. Pius X status after unauthorized visit (CNA)

Cardinal Anders Arborelius issued a pointed call for unity in the Diocese of Stockholm, clarifying the canonical status of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) and cautioning Swedish Catholics against choices that might undermine ecclesial communion. The cardinal’s statement, released Aug. 15 on the solemnity of the Assumption, responded to controversy following episcopal acts performed in the diocese by Bishop Bernard Fellay, former superior general of the SSPX, without the knowledge or consent of the diocesan bishop. According to the official clarification from the Diocese of Stockholm, the bishop of Stockholm alone exercises supervision over liturgical life within his jurisdiction, and no other bishop may perform ecclesial acts in the diocese without his permission, as required by canon law and the directives of the Holy See. The document noted that Fellay had conducted episcopal functions “without our bishop’s knowledge,” an act described as contrary to canon law and a cause of “division and discord,” EWTN Norway reported. The diocese made clear that the SSPX does not live or act in communion with the Holy See, and its canonical status remains unclear...

>430 brone:

"We will fight back" is stirring rhetoric. But I'd be genuinely interested to hear what that means in concrete terms. Do you mean fighting for adequate social and mental support for disturbed young people to pre-empt this type of violence? Or fighting to prevent such people acquiring small arms and light weapons? Or are you perhaps thinking of flooding a country which already has one and a half times more firearms than people (Robin had three, I believe) with yet more lethal weapons? I don't think that's what our American pope was thinking of when he called for us to be “unarmed and disarming".

Back to the thread topic of "the Latin Mass", some interesting statistics from the Pew Research Centre (link):

Only 3% of American Catholics attend a traditional Latin Mass once or more a month, according to a recent Pew Research Center survey. Eighty-seven percent of American Catholics have never attended a traditional Latin Mass in the past five years. There is even less interest in the traditional Latin Mass outside the United States...

>433 brone:

Do you perceive it as a threat? I don't. But as we have said so often before, it does appear to serve as a rallying point for a relatively small number of Catholics (not you, of course) who reject the current universal rite of mass and indeed reject much of Vatican II itself, so in that regard it is divisive.

>436 brone: My friend the African missionary who is so close to martyrs will say

If that refers to me, let me just say that putting words into other people's mouths is rarely either accurate or helpful. But it seems that the penny has now dropped and you have decided that our new American pope is not what you had expected him to be? Remember he is not only an American but also a Peruvian and a missionary, but even as an American he represents a large swathe of the US Catholic Church which is different from the section which you often claim represents "American Catholics". He also represents almost all the cardinals of the universal Catholic Church, as shown by the speed with which they elected him and their comments after the Conclave.

Edited to add: Here's a couple of articles which have just come out in a US Catholic periodical, the Journal of Social Encounters, about a recent martyr who was a colleague of mine.

On the 25th Anniversary of the Political Assassination of a Human Rights Hero from Minnesota, Fr. John Kaiser

The Late Father Rev. John Anthony Kaiser: “A Case for Justice”

And here are two more recent martyrs:

Murder of Catholic Priest Returning from Apostolate "senseless act of violence": Official in Nsukka Diocese, Nigeria

In Video Before Brutal Murder, Late Sierra Leonean Priest Testifies He Was Happy “to lead people to God”

>439 brone:

Just for the record, I do not consider myself a "pacifist". I support nonviolent action, which is never passive but always active. I'm not sure who you are quoting as saying that the 7th October attacks were justified, and no idea who the "music lovers" that you refer to are. I'm not aware of anyone (except perhaps Hamas themselves?) who considered those attacks justified, and they have been pretty universally condemned as a war crime. And have the war crimes which Israel has committed in retaliation actually made anyone safer, or brought peace and justice any closer, or made the region (and indeed the world) any less volatile, or helped to release the hostages?

I can agree with Johnson that "when a person knows they are to be executed in two weeks, it concentrates their mind fully". Forty-odd years ago I was sentenced to death alongside two of my Church colleagues and it certainly did concentrate our minds fully, although in the end the sentence was not carried out. But once a murderer has been sentenced to death (to concentrate their mind fully) they are already in prison for life, so the sentence has no effect on whether or not they can commit another murder. And certainly the death sentence doesn't appear to deter murderers, as can be seen by the high rate of murder in the USA which still practices this barbaric anachronism. As Aquinas says, correct the wrongdoer and discourage others from doing wrong. That doesn't mean taking more human lives on top of those who have already tragically been murdered. Mercy and justice are not contradictory unless your only model of justice is a fairly crude form of retributive or punitive justice. There are many other models available, including restorative justice, economic justice, distributive justice, transitional justice and social justice.

>445 brone:

I'm struggling to understand the main themes of your post, but I think it's setting up a straw person, a caricature. I'm not sure that anybody takes the extreme positions which you are trying to attribute to mainstream Catholics.

Nobody is saying that anything and everything taught by a pope is infallible; as you well know, there are very strict criteria for an infallible teaching. Neither is anybody saying that "Trent, Pius V, Pius X, Pius XII" were wrong. The Tradition of the Church is a living one, constantly evolving and leading us to a deeper understanding of the deposit of faith for our times, building on rather than rejecting what has gone before in a hermeneutic of continuity. But what does appear to many Catholics (and non-Catholics) as rather odd is the spectre of small groups of Catholics who appear to reject the teaching of an Ecumenical Council and a succession of recent popes as well as much of the older Tradition but who nevertheless describe themselves as "orthodox"and "traditionalist". That's certainly not the definition of those two terms which I grew up with in both the pre- and post Vatican II Church.

>456 brone:

Indeed. Saint John Bosco founded the Salesian order of priests and brothers in 1859, dedicated to educating and ministering to vulnerable youth, and there are also Salesian sisters as well as lay cooperators. They work in around 130 countries throughout the world and are especially known for their schools and technical training centres, but they also run shelters, clubs and community centres. I've had the privilege of knowing and at times working with many of them in Sudan and South Sudan, and they also have a big presence here in Kenya. Good people.

Edited to add: A World Scattered, A Youth Unheard: Kenyan Catholic Bishop on Why Kenya and the World “need the spirit of Don Bosco" (ACI Africa)

The Holy Mass on Saturday, January 31, the Feast Day of St. John Bosco, at Don Bosco Utume Salesian Theological College (DBU-STC) in Kenya’s Nairobi Catholic Archdiocese (ADN) was more than a liturgical celebration. It was a diagnosis of a global moral and pastoral crisis characterized by fractured societies, disillusioned youths, and widening gaps between institutions and the people they serve and a call to rediscover what Bishop Simon Peter Kamomoe described as the urgently needed “spirit of Don Bosco”...

Traditionalist Catholic society announces bishop consecrations in defiance of Rome (NCR)

A traditionalist Catholic society whose founder was excommunicated during the pontificate of St. John Paul II has announced plans to ordain new bishops without Vatican approval, a move that directly challenges Rome and tests how Pope Leo XIV will respond to open defiance from a group long at odds with the Vatican... The Society of St. Pius X, which celebrates the pre-Vatican II Latin Mass and rejects key teachings of the Second Vatican Council, claims to have roughly 700 priests worldwide and to minister to about 500,000 people. Its strongest presence is in France and the United States... The society’s announcement places Leo on a collision course with a group that has repeatedly tested the limits of Vatican authority. Any response on his part, or lack thereof, will be highly scrutinized as a sign of how the pope intends to handle open defiance from the church's conservative wing. The planned consecrations revive painful memories of 1988, when the society's founder, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, ordained four priests as bishops against the express prohibition of the pope. John Paul II declared the act schismatic and Lefebvre and the four newly ordained bishops incurred automatic excommunication (latae sententiae), setting off decades of strained relations between the Vatican and the traditionalist group. Church law holds that "no bishop is permitted to consecrate anyone a bishop unless it is first evident that there is a pontifical mandate" (Canon 1013)...

SSPX reopens Vatican split with plans to ‘ordain’ new bishops (Tablet)

The Priestly Society of Pius X (SPPX) announced it would consecrate new bishops on 1 July, reopening the ultra-traditionalist group’s split with the Vatican after its partial reintegration into the Church in recent years... Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre founded the SSPX in 1970, and consecrated four of its priests as bishops in 1988 without Vatican permission. John Paul II excommunicated them, but their consecration was termed “illicit but not invalid” since a proper bishop had ordained them. The SSPX rejects the reforms of the Second Vatican Council and celebrates only the pre-conciliar liturgy. In 1988, it argued the consecrations were permissible under canon law due to a moral and theological crisis in the Catholic Church, which the Vatican denied...

>460 brone:

I'm struggling to understand your attack on me given that I have not said a word for or against Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre here. He was indeed a great missionary, and while his reluctance to accept African bishops ("the Africans are not yet ripe") raises some questions, it was by no means unusual amongst Europeans of his time as the anti-colonial "winds of change" began to sweep across the continent. In >458 John5918: I have simply posted two articles from well-respected Catholic media, one in USA and one in UK, which I think are relevant to the topic of this thread, both of which report the news that SSPX has publicly announced that it intends to illicitly ordain some bishops, and both of which give quite a balanced view by quoting SSPX's side of the story. Where exactly is the "rant" to which you refer?

Edited to add: Contacts continue between Holy See and Society of St. Pius X (Vatican News)

“Contacts between the Society of St. Pius X and the Holy See continue; the intention is to avoid rifts or unilateral solutions with regard to the issues that have emerged,” said Matteo Bruni, Director of the Holy See Press Office, on February 3...

>461 John5918:

Is church unity worth a Latin Mass? (NCR)

"Paris is well worth a Mass" was reportedly the attitude of King Henry IV when he was trying to secure the French throne. As a result, he converted from Protestantism to Catholicism in 1593. Today, the Eucharist, which is supposed to be the sacrament of unity, is too often a battlefield between Catholics who support the Traditional Latin Mass and those who want to see it disappear. Both sides need to ask themselves whether the fight is worth something more important than Paris: the unity of the church. You must be my age to remember before the Second Vatican Council, when the liturgy was entirely in Latin in Catholic churches, except in those using Eastern Rite liturgies, where it was often in Greek. In Rome, it had been changed from Greek into Latin in the third and fourth centuries so the common people could understand it — a pragmatic decision, not a theological one... Although I entered the Jesuits prior to the Second Vatican Council and went through a very traditional novitiate, I did not find the liturgical changes difficult to accept. Our conservative novice master taught us a course on the history of the Mass using Josef A. Jungmann's "Mass of the Roman Rite," which was published in English in 1951. It taught us that the Mass was always changing throughout history. The transition was also made easier by our traditional novitiate's emphasis on obedience. If the church decided to change the liturgy, we were to accept it without question. To do otherwise would be disobedient... for the most part, the liturgical changes were accepted and implemented with excitement and joy. They were the most visible reforms of Vatican II. And after a bit of confusion, they were accepted overwhelmingly by Catholics in the pews.

But there were two groups of holdouts. First, there were those who found the change difficult because they were used to the old ways and the reforms were not well explained. Popes Paul VI and John Paul II wanted to deal with these people with pastoral sensitivity and patience, but the popes made clear that eventually, the old Mass was to fade away. The other group of holdouts was more problematic. They objected to the new liturgy in principle and felt it was blasphemous. In truth, these ideologues objected to all the reforms of the council, not just liturgy. They were divisive and contentious. Some of these dissenters were led into schism by French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, despite all the Vatican's efforts to appease him... But there was an unanticipated side effect: Some who grew up after Vatican II began to attend these Latin Masses. Most were not ideologues, but pious, theologically unsophisticated Catholics who were attracted by the ritual and mysterious ceremony that allowed them to focus on adoration and private prayer without the distraction of communal participation. It is a mistake for liturgical reformers to lump this third group in with the ideologues who reject Vatican II. These are good, devout people who want to come closer to Jesus and find spiritual nourishment in the old liturgy. Their existence is a result of our failure to better explain the reforms and to make the new liturgy more appealing to them. We should have encouraged them to go to Benediction and explained how it is different from Mass. Pope Benedict XVI erred in taking away the local bishop's control over the Latin Mass and allowing any priest to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass anywhere, any time. Pope Francis erred in seeing only the ideologues and not the pious Catholics who liked the old Mass. Now, poor Pope Leo XIV must figure out how to deal with this mess in a pastoral way that does not empower the ideologues and affirms that the Traditional Latin Mass must eventually fade away... Leo should keep in place the Francis mandate that seminarians are to be trained and ordained for the reformed liturgy. If they prefer the old Mass, they should not be ordained. On the other hand, Francis' ban on the Latin Mass in parishes could have more flexibility. It might make sense to return the authority over this to diocesan bishops, although some may prefer to blame the Vatican for not allowing it. And yet, this is exactly the kind of issue that should be handled in a synodal fashion at the local level. And diocesan bishops can more easily determine whether those asking for the Latin Mass are pious Catholics or ideologues, and respond accordingly. In any case, I would keep some limits on the availability of the Latin Mass... Meanwhile, Leo should relaunch liturgical reform...

Apologies for quoting at length, but I think this is a well-argued and balanced piece by Fr Thomas Reese.

On topic perhaps for the "superbowl" part of this rather eclectic thread title!

Trafficking, Super Bowl, nuns, St. Josephine, and dignity (Aleteia)

Religious sisters are at the forefront of the fight against human trafficking. Pope Leo noted their efforts on the World Day... On this feast of {Sudanese} St. Josephine Bakhita, which is also Super Bowl Sunday, and Winter Olympics season, the US bishops noted a tragic element of big sporting events: an increase in human trafficking.

Vatican extends olive branch to traditionalist group threatening break from Rome (NCR)

The Vatican has proposed a renewed "path of dialogue" with a traditionalist Catholic society that has threatened to consecrate new bishops without papal approval, offering an off-ramp from the dissident group's path toward automatic excommunication from the Catholic Church. Cardinal Víctor Manuel Fernández offered to continue doctrinal discussions with the group. It's a last-ditch effort to avoid a repeat of the Society of St. Pius X's 1988 illicit consecration of four bishops, an act that Pope John Paul II called "schismatic" and which led to the excommunication of the society's founder. Fernández, prefect of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith which oversees the Vatican's relationship with SSPX, met Feb. 12 with the society's superior general, Fr. Davide Pagliarani, and proposed further talks on issues that "have not yet been sufficiently clarified," including adherence to the teachings of the Second Vatican Council. The Society of St. Pius X holds a canonically irregular status in the church and denies key teachings of Vatican II. It rejects interreligious dialogue and has described the council's liturgical reform, which introduced the form of the Mass celebrated by nearly all Catholics worldwide since 1970, as "evil"... By announcing the new bishop consecrations, the society is testing how Pope Leo XIV will respond to open defiance from the church's conservative wing. Yet in the Feb. 12 meeting, explicitly approved by the pope, Fernández sought to keep the door open to dialogue while quelling the prospect of illicit consecrations. A statement released by the dicastery following the meeting stated that "the possibility of carrying out this dialogue presupposes that the Fraternity suspend its decision regarding the announced episcopal ordinations"... Ultimately the dialogue is intended to lay out "the minimum requirements necessary for full communion with the Catholic Church and, consequently, to outline a canonical status for the Fraternity." The group has long strained relations with Rome...

What I find rather ironic and indeed bizarre is that a group which self identifies as "traditionalist" Catholics is acting so contrary to Catholic Tradition and canon law. It is not and never has been Tradition for random groups of Catholics to ordain bishops without papal approval, indeed quite the opposite - it appears to be a radical departure from Tradition. Let us pray that ongoing dialogue will bring them back into unity with the Church and her Tradition.

SSPX talks pose greatest challenge of Leo’s pontificate to date (Tablet)

Commentators warned that if Pope Leo gives in to SSPX demands, even partially, it would show the strength of far-right Catholics after the papacy of Pope Francis. The Vatican faces a renewed showdown with one of its most persistent critics after the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) said it would consecrate new bishops, threatening a new schism hardly a year after the election of Pope Leo XIV. Rome has declared itself ready for dialogue with the Swiss-based SSPX, whose four bishops consecrated in 1988 without Vatican approval were excommunicated. But the SSPX would have to call off the episcopal ordinations scheduled for 1 July. Cardinal Victor Fernández, head of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, set this condition at a meeting with SSPX superior general Fr Davide Pagliarani on 12 February. The latter then returned to Switzerland, saying he would consult his advisors and publish his reaction soon. What happens after that could define Pope Leo’s papacy. Small in numbers but loud in messaging, the SSPX celebrates Mass exclusively in the old rite and opposes both the religious liberty and interreligious dialogue promoted by the Second Vatican Council...

SSPX rejects Vatican dialogue, plans to consecrate bishops without papal mandate (OSV)

The Society of St. Pius X has rejected a Vatican offer of dialogue and said it will move forward with plans to ordain bishops without a papal mandate this summer. In a letter sent to the Vatican on Ash Wednesday, Feb. 18, and made public on Feb. 19, Father Davide Pagliarani, superior general of the traditionalist society known as SSPX, told Cardinal Víctor Manuel Fernández, prefect of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, that he could not accept the terms under which the Vatican proposed to resume talks. Pagliarani added that he would not postpone the episcopal ordinations planned for July 1. “We both know in advance that we cannot agree doctrinally, particularly regarding the fundamental orientations adopted since the Second Vatican Council,” Father Pagliarani wrote. The letter came one week after Cardinal Fernández and Father Pagliarani met at the Vatican on Feb. 12, in which the cardinal proposed dialogue to address the “minimum requirements necessary for full communion with the Catholic Church,” on the condition that SSPX suspend its plans for the ordinations. ..

The full text of the letter from Father Pagliarani of SSPX to Cardinal Fernández can be read here.

Edited to add: Society of St. Pius X rejects dialogue proposed by the Holy See (Vatican News)

The Society of St. Pius X rejects the Holy See's proposal for a “specifically theological” dialogue, as "the texts of the Council cannot be corrected, nor can the legitimacy of the liturgical reform be questioned." They confirm their intention to proceed with the episcopal ordinations scheduled for July 1...

Pope Urges Liturgical Unity, Inclusion of Traditional Latin Mass Faithful (National Catholic Register)

Pope Leo XIV has called for renewed unity in the Church’s liturgical life, urging French bishops to seek “concrete solutions” to include Catholics attached to the Traditional Latin Mass while preserving communion... the pope expressed concern over divisions surrounding the liturgy, describing them as “a painful wound” within the Church. “It is troubling that a painful wound continues to open in the Church concerning the celebration of the Mass, the very sacrament of unity,” the message stated. The Pope emphasized the need for a renewed spirit of charity and understanding among Catholics of differing liturgical sensibilities. “A new outlook of each toward the other, with greater understanding of their sensitivities, is certainly necessary,” he wrote, “an outlook that would allow brothers and sisters, enriched by their diversity, to welcome one another in charity and in the unity of the faith.” Addressing the growth of communities attached to the Vetus Ordo, Leo XIV encouraged bishops to discern practical ways forward. “May the Holy Spirit inspire you with concrete solutions that allow for the generous inclusion of those sincerely attached to the Vetus Ordo, in respect for the directions desired by the Second Vatican Council in matters of liturgy,” the message said... Beyond liturgical concerns, the Pope also addressed the ongoing abuse crisis, urging perseverance in prevention efforts and continued care for victims...

>478 brone: Violent death in the most virile manner and willingly experiencing it. Overcoming it at His Resurrection

Yes, that's the example of the power of nonviolence which Jesus left with us. Nonviolence is tough, and needs faith, courage, commitment, dedication and willingness to suffer, even to willingly sacrifice one's life; it's much easier to take the less travelled path and resort to violence. I can agree with you to some extent that the "providential plan of salvation was not accomplished through pacifism", but it's active nonviolence that Jesus demonstrated, which is not the same as pacifism and is never passive. And Jesus did indeed overcome violence at his Resurrection, not by using violence but by being nonviolent. There's a lesson there for those who naively believe that violence and death can be overcome by more violence and death.

Why were centurions postively portrayed in the bible when in fact they were oppressive overlords?

They were not positively portrayed for being oppressive overlords, but for their conversion when they were able to see the truth. Even the oppressor is a beloved child of God, which is why Jesus wanted their conversion and stopped his disciples from using violence against those who were doing violence to him (Matthew 26:52-54 and John 18:11).

Leo asks French bishops to ‘include’ old-rite devotees with ‘new perspective’ (Tablet)

In a letter on behalf of the Pope to the bishops meeting in Lourdes on 24-27 March, the Holy See’s Secretary of State Cardinal Pietro Parolin identified three themes of particular interest to Leo among those scheduled for discussion. These were education “in the context of a growing hostility towards Catholic establishments”, the French Church’s continued struggle against sexual abuse and discussion of the liturgy “in the context of the growth of communities attached to the Vetus Ordo”, the old form of the Roman Rite. All three have a particular resonance in France, where laïcité laws complicate the provision of Catholic education while the scale of clerical sexual abuse continues to damage the Church. The country also has a history of liturgical division dating from the reforms of the Second Vatican Council. “It is worrying that a painful wound remains open in the Church concerning the celebration of the Mass, the very sacrament of unity,” said the letter, dated 18 March and published on Wednesday. “For it to heal, a new perspective towards one another with a greater understanding of each other’s sensitivities is certainly necessary; a perspective that allows brothers to welcome one another enriched by their diversity, in the charity and unity of the faith.” It encouraged the bishops to seek “concrete solutions allowing the generous inclusion of people sincerely attached to the Vetus Ordo, in accordance with the directions agreed by the Second Vatican Council in matters of the liturgy”...

Vatican warns rebel Catholic group it risks excommunication (Reuters)

Summary
- Vatican warns breakaway Catholics over bishop ordinations
- Latin Mass group risks excommunication, Vatican says
- Vatican says unauthorized bishops would create schism...

Vatican repeats warning of excommunication if SSPX ordains bishops (Tablet)

The Holy See confirmed that a traditionalist group’s plans to ordain bishops will incur excommunication if they take place. In a statement on Wednesday, the prefect of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) Cardinal Víctor Manuel Fernández repeated a previous warning that episcopal ordinations announced by the Society of St Pius X (SSPX) for 1 July “do not have a papal mandate”. He cited John Paul II’s motu proprio Ecclesia Dei, which declared such ordinations “a schismatic act” and warned that “formal adherence to the schism constitutes a grave offence against God and entails the excommunication established under Church law”...

The Futility of the SSPX’s Schism Defense: a Diocesan Priest’s View (One Peter Five)

they both misrepresent and reject a key teaching of Lumen Gentium. Were they to understand and accept this teaching their whole argument would fall apart...

It's premature to say the gay sex loving bishops of Germany need sanctions but Tucho Fernandez the erotic author of pornographic and blasphemous books is quick to condemn the SSPX Traditional Catholic group for consecrating 4 Aux bishops in July such hypocrisy."AMDG"

So be it. Amen, the final report of study group 9 of the Synod on Synodality has emerged and it explicitly callenges the tradititional Catholic view that considers homosexuality a disordered tendency and that the homosexual act is immoral. The groups sissy report states that sin, does not consist in the same sex couple's relationship but consists in a lack of faith in God. Ambiguous and confusing but not to Jim Matin who recieved homosexuals together as "husband" and "wife" a."blessing". Jimmy Martin is often mentioned with Bergoglio or Provost and his doctrinal positions often heterodox, have not hindered his career. An avowed defender of liberation theology, Martin has made LQBBTP+++ propaganda his principle cause as did Bergoglio and does Prevost at present."AMDG"

SSPX superior issues declaration of faith after Vatican warning (Cathoic Herald)

Fr Davide Pagliarani released a formal declaration of Catholic faith on May 14, the feast of the Ascension of Our Lord, presenting it to Pope Leo XIV as the minimum required to remain in communion with the Church amid ongoing tensions between the Society of St Pius X and the Holy See. The document, issued from the SSPX headquarters in Menzingen, Switzerland, comes one day after Cardinal Víctor Manuel Fernández, prefect of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, warned that the Society’s planned episcopal consecrations in July without pontifical mandate would constitute a schismatic act. The Vatican’s May 13 statement said the announced episcopal ordinations lacked the requisite papal mandate and would constitute “a schismatic act”...

The reason Jimmy Lai is not mentioned is because he was an advocate for Catholic Democracy. Jimmy was a billionaire with an off ramp. Until the Communists locked him away for the rest of his life. Jimmy Lai whose name is well known here because of me is well known to lovers of freedom all over the world. A poor man originaly he escaped to hong Kong on a boat when he was twelve. As I said he became very prosperous but the Tiananmen Square massacre changed all that. He became a British citizen and converted to Catholicism in 1977. His story is familiar to anyone who has read the life of a Martyr. Jimmy is the hero of opressed Catholics in China who wake every day, knowing that his or her faith place's them in harm's way. Jimmy is willing to leave Hong Hong but not at the price of refuting his Faith.I marvel at the absolute acceptance of God's will. In the face of injustice which this pope and the last make an ongoing theme yet not a WORD from Rome or anyone here for a modern Saint among us."AMDG" Free Jimmy Lai

The western countries political parties that were left of center have descended into communism. The crumbs of this descension are a cost of freedom. My Hero Hillaire Belloc who would be considered a racist by splainers, Belloc would have us combine sufficiency and security with freedom in short, a Chistian way of organizing society. The popesplainers here would scoff against even a partial success of such an attempt besides they are very instinctive. The greatest barriers to well divided property are the collapse of the family. I say Americans are now finally puting down roots and claiming a place of their own therefore will spend their lives serving their comuunities. Yup in 2126 they will know that we were here by continuing the story until the 6th generation in other words young Americans are holding a compact for a little while and then passing it on. They know now that Government will always be thoughly corrupt and will always oppose the common good. Catholics must avoid distribution if it is from the government. I do not attack a straw man here the taxes on residential and business property are proper. Thus, in American States we have the homestead act which is not favoritism as confiscation but rather an ideal of one living under his own roof on his own land not under the exploitation of others. Leasing presents another problem every lease should contain a clause containing the power to purchase. This would lead to the restriction of long leases. This preposal would of course need to be refined but the moral decision favors real property owned by families rather than rent extracted from families. Predatory pricing is the underselling of small competitors when stores like Wal-Mart can absorb the temporary losses through some other department. The current division of goods is a result of default and the consequences are obvious. Why we can't change these business rules is a no brainer (1) give an advantage to the small landowner over the large one. (2) The homeowner over the landlord. (3) The small business over the large one. What is so confusing about that choice seems like Christian principles too me. "AMDG"

>492 brone: My Hero Hillaire Belloc

I also like Hilaire Belloc. My favourite poem from him is an ironic comment on colonial wars, written in 1898, the year that Britain massacred between fifteen and twenty-five thousand Sudanese in a single day at the Battle of Omdurman (known to the Sudanese as Karari) at the cost of only forty-eight British dead:

“Whatever happens, we have got
the Maxim gun, and they have not”.

SSPX releases names of four priests to be consecrated bishops in July (Catholic Herald)

The Society of Saint Pius X has announced the names of four priests to be consecrated bishops on July 1 at its international seminary in Écône, Switzerland. The priests chosen are Fr Pascal Schreiber of Switzerland, Fr Michael Goldade of the United States, Fr Michel Poinsinet de Sivry of France and Fr Marc Hanappier of France...

Those who are faithful to the Tradition of the Catholic Church will know that Canon Law does not allow the ordination of bishops without the approval of the pope.

I can still hear mothers calling thier children home in the old neighborhood. There is something about the voice of a mother that settles deeply into the soul. How often did we hear "be careful." "Look both ways." "Tell me the truth." "Call me when you get there." "Stay away from danger." "Wear your jacket." "Come home before dark." A Mother carries burdens no one sees. Many we must acknowledge did not grow up with this tenderness and these wounds do not simply disappear. Being involved with many converts to our faith I see many as well as cradle Catholics that come to a profound knowledge of Mary. Mary never replaces Christ because She is not worshipped but Christ in His mercy knew that the human heart needs a mother. Perhaps that is why you see so many icons of Mary in Catholic places. The world has grown sinful and so many do not recognize the voice of their Mother. Mary like good Mothers everywhere does not stop loving their children simply because they have wandered away. So, all the apparitions of Our Lady throughout history are really the same moment repeated again and again. Mother standing in a doorway calling her children home after the darkness falls. From the beginning we were told of her she would be the great enemy of Satan, the woman clothed in the sun. At Fatima in modern times she promised in the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph." Christ Himself gave her to us beneath the Cross."AMDG" Pray for persecuted Christians in Africa and Asia.

>495 brone:

Pope to lead worldwide Rosary for peace in Vatican Garden (Vatican News)

Accompanying his repeated calls for an end to war, Pope Leo XIV will preside over the recitation of the Holy Rosary on May 30 in the Vatican Gardens, with each decade dedicated to people impacted by war—from families torn apart to medical personnel and volunteers...

The state of the faith under Prevost is at the subterranean level. Wholesale ignorance, indifference, and apostasy it is a fact only a spiritual moron could miss. Certainly, the bishops including the pope have not missed it. Periodically they throw a broadside at it, you know the one against "secularism" and the "disintergration of the family."abstractions related to each other which we are earnestly assured that these are the root of all evil. I say however the chief loss of faith and the chief responsibility for this loss is the bishops themselves. Future generations of Catholics are going to read history books that were written during these times and see that certain bishops ruling the Church compromised and concealed dogmas they were consecrated to teach. Like one of the first bishops Judas, or others in every age they wound the Church just as greviously with their modern betrayal of Jesus. If only one bishop like John Fisher would own frankly to the primary failure of the hierarchy it would risk unpopularity, it cost Fisher his life. Have faith there are bishops out there who work purely and entirely to increase love for Jesus and to reach men in the way of salvation."AMDG"

>495 brone:

Thanks for this reflection on Mary our Mother. Let me honour our continuing devotion to Mary by quoting the final three pargraphs of Pope Leo XIV's Magnifica Humantatis:

243. After having considered faith, which contemplates the Father’s loving plan; love, which unites us in one ecclesial body; and hope, which sustains our actions in the world, the fourth pillar of this program for Christian life is prayer. Mary’s song accompanies our commitment. Before Elizabeth who announces to her that she has become the mother of the Lord, Mary bursts into a hymn of praise and joy. Her soul magnifies the Lord, and her spirit rejoices in God her Savior, for he chose a young, poor and humble girl for his plan of salvation. Mary suddenly sees all of history through the lens of this revelation. Nothing has changed around her; the socio-political situation of her time remains the same. The Romans continue to control her land, and her people are still subjugated and humiliated. Yet, everything has changed within her, and this allows her to see what is invisible. God has already shown the strength of his arm; he has already scattered the proud, cast down the mighty, lifted up the lowly, filled the hungry with good things and sent the rich away empty-handed. He has already helped Israel, his servant. God “takes the part of the lowly. His plan is one that is often hidden beneath the opaque context of human events that see ‘the proud, the mighty and the rich’ triumph. Yet his secret strength is destined in the end to be revealed.”

244. The Blessed Virgin Mary not only teaches us to recognize God’s invisible work, but also directs our gaze to “the points at which humanity is broken and the world becomes distorted: the contrast between the humble and the powerful, the poor and the rich, the satiated and the hungry,” teaching us “to look at the world from a lower position: through the eyes of those who suffer rather than the mighty; to view history through the eyes of the little ones, rather than through the perspective of the powerful; to interpret the events of history from the viewpoint of the widow, the orphan, the stranger, the wounded child, the exile and the fugitive.” The Blessed Virgin thus becomes “poet and prophetess of Redemption,” because on her lips is proclaimed “the strongest and most innovative hymn ever articulated, the Magnificat; it is she who reveals the transformative vision of the Christian economy, the historical and social result that still draws its origin and strength from Christianity.”

245. With the same faith as Mary, let us become “weavers of hope” in our world, sharing who we are and what we have, so that the presence of Jesus may grow among us and his Kingdom take shape. In the humble fidelity of daily life, even the era of AI can become a time in which the Holy Spirit brings about the civilization of love in our lives. Indeed, the Lord continues to make all things new and offers every era the possibility of becoming part of salvation history in the light of the Incarnation. I entrust our desire to the Mother of Christ, to the Woman of the Magnificat, that she may guide our steps through this time of change and preserve in each of us true faith in the Gospel, so that we may bear witness to the grandeur of humanity, in which God has made his dwelling.

Christians in Bangladesh are now the targets of sectarian attacks dominated by Mohamedans. Although corrupt the former Government had a zero-tolerance approach to Mohamedan violence. Since the fall of that government a rise in Mohamedan attacks particarly against those that converted from Mohamedism has been allowed."AMDG"

Meanwhile Swiss police have arrested a 31-year-old- Mohamedan who while shouting "Allahu Akbar" stabbed three people one is in serious condition. This came on the second day of Eid al-Adha, an important Mohamedan holy day now celebrated in Zurich. "AMDG"

Pope Leo XIV Warns Planned Episcopal Ordinations of Society of St. Pius X Priests Risk Deepening Schism (ACI Africa)

Pope Leo XIV cautioned that the planned ordination of Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) bishops could push the group toward schism, urging them again to stop and remain in communion with the Church. “We have invited them, and I am still considering making another appeal, to say: ‘Do not do this. Let us try to live communion in the Church.’ But it is their choice. They must understand what it means for them and for the Church,” the pope said... The Society of St. Pius X said it plans to consecrate four priests as bishops on July 1 without the permission of Pope Leo XIV. The Vatican warned on May 13 that doing so without a papal mandate would constitute “a schismatic act” and carry the penalty of excommunication... “Certainly, division among Christians is always a painful matter,” the pope said. “But they refuse to accept certain fundamental elements of the Church, beginning with various points of the Second Vatican Council. And if they make those choices, I am sorry. But we must move forward”...