Sinuhe: Extra copies...Member Input Needed

We have enough printed sheets to complete 20 more copies of The Tale of Sinuhe and we need to determine what to do with them.

First, the background. While those sheets were printed, we don't have the budget for Alanna to bind them. Dr. Parkinson has requested five copies to be distributed gratis as follows: (1) a deposit copy to each of the British Library, the Bodleian, and The Queen's College library, and (2) if possible, complimentary copies to Barbara Ewing, the actress he's worked with on the audio version of his text (which was referenced in a previous thread here) and one to James Ivory, who I assume is the film producer/director formerly of Merchant-Ivory (think Room With a View, Howard's End, etc.).

So, some questions needing resolution: Who pays for them to be made? Who owns them? Who profits from their potential sale? What about complimentary copies? If we don't have some/all bound, what do we do with the sheets?

Members, we need your thoughts on this. The floor is open for your comments. Thank you one and all.

1. Why were the extra sheets printed?
2. The first deposit copies idea seems reasonable.
3. I'm not sure about the second round of gratis copies.
4. The Consensus Press membership owns the extra copies.
5. Bind the extra copies and then auction them on Ebay to defray costs OR sell them to new members who apply to join for the second CP book.
Just ideas that floated through my head as I read >1 consensuspress:.

>2 wcarter: Re: your point #5, who pays the upfront cost to bind them? Also, I like the idea of selling them to new members.

>2 wcarter: The extra copies were printed because there was enough paper to do so and presses usually print more than the number indicated in a colophon to allow for replacement of lost/damaged copies/sheets.

>3 ultrarightist:
The sheets could be held until new CP members had paid up-front to have them bound.

I don’t understand the reasoning of printing so many additional copies. Extra copies shouldn’t be available to non-members, otherwise what was the point of having a membership.
I think that they should be held until all members receive and are happy with their copies, then the extra’s should be destroyed.

>1 consensuspress: There seem to be two issues running in parallel here. Firstly, how to finance the binding of the five copies Dr Parkinson requested, which I assume the press has committed to. Secondly, what to do with the remaining 15 copies in sheets. It would be useful to have some background re the finances, for example how much does it cost per copy to be bound, and therefore how much per member for the extra five copies for Dr Parkinson? It will be difficult to enforce all members to pay for these. Personally I don't mind putting in a little. Regarding the 15 copies on top of that I agree with >6 DMulvee: if there are no additional funds available today.

Destroying them should be a no-no as it is such a ridiculous waste of a perfectly good batch of sheet sets. Instead, I think that they should be a possible bonus item for the Press’s membership. My thoughts are that any member wanting a set could put their name forward and names go into a draw, with those names pulled getting a set to do with as they please.

These sets of sheets are an ‘already paid for’ extra that is common in fine press, and it seems reasonable to me to just make use of them in this way. If those getting them want them bound then it should be on them to sort out and pay for the binding. And regarding the binding, I think it a good and reasonable proviso that any being bound are not done in the exact same manner as the in-series copies (which is easy enough as the only person who can do this fully is Alanna, who can just be asked not to repeat the binding for any further copies not asked for as part of the actual edition)

>7 Levin40: In all fairness, and on the assumption that it is out of the original agreement, if the professor wants these extra copies bound for handing out to people and institutes not part of the CP membership, he should foot the bill himself. The costs of such should not at all have to be stumped up by the membership. If I was the professor, I wouldn’t expect such expenses to be paid for. It is one thing to generously allow him the extra copies in sheets, but stumping up to also bind them for him just isn’t right.

>9 ChestnutPress: My guess is that he assumes there are bound copies available for that purpose. I suspect he is not familiar with how a small fine press operates as opposed to a university or trade publisher.

>9 ChestnutPress: That's true. I'm just not sure exactly what has been discussed and agreed with him. The first post above seemed to imply that they'd promised the copies but there was no agreement on funding, but I'm not certain. Maybe >1 consensuspress: could clarify.

>11 Levin40: I received Dr. Parkinson's request and forwarded it on to Griffin which is what sparked this discussion at this time, but it was something we were going to have to deal with anyway. I do not know what, if anything, Griffin has said to the prof, but I don't think he has responded as yet because of this little problem.

You have to admit that our MO is unusual and that somewhat complicates things.

Griffin will undoubtedly be posting here tomorrow at some point.

Speaking now as Glacierman, the member, here are a some thoughts I've had, but eventually it all comes down to funding.

Bind up the extras in a different binding and numbering to set them apart from the member's issue with an explanatory note tipped in and make them available to new members when they sign on and commit to the next book. Price would be the same as originally assessed. These could be pre-paid and bound after payment is received. In this case, the cost would reflect the binding expense as well. Or they could opt to receive unbound sheets instead with no additional cost.

Bind up some of the extras for deposit with certain institutions, especially those noted for fine press collections.

Make unbound sheets available at cost + 10% & shipping to current members.

>7 Levin40: Griffin is better placed to answer your questions, so I will let him address them when he comes on.

>13 Glacierman: Bind up some of the extras for deposit with certain institutions, especially those noted for fine press collections.

These would, of course, be hors de commerce and in different, plainer binding, sans slipcase. The colophon would be modified to reflect that either by a printed label pasted in or manually.

My suggestion is to do nothing with the extras at this point in time.

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>4 consensuspress: Keeping them to be used to replace damaged items is a good idea. You mention this in the context of sheets, however I'm surprised that nobody mentioned replacement books yet, especially with all of the previous worries about how we would get the sheets around the world.

In reading some of the other threads about damaged copies arriving to customers from other presses, I think we have a fortunate safety net here. If someone receives a damaged or defective product, having those sheets allows us the opportunity to fix that issue. Without them, someone will be very sour if anything goes amiss during transport.

>13 Glacierman: Reiterating my "do nothing" suggestion, I don't think we number anything yet. To replace a damaged/defective book, we still have the opportunity to number match, an opportunity that disappears if we start adding extra numbers now. (Yes, I realize that number assignment isn't currently know to the membership yet.)

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Perhaps having an overrun is something we could use to entice future volunteers? (I can't recall if our first edition volunteers get a copy au gratis or if that just goes to the proposal winner, and I'd have to dig, perhaps Way Back using a Machine, to check the website to see if it was noted.) Maybe after fulfilling certain volunteer roles (that we should definitely define), upon completion of the project, said volunteer could be compensated by receiving that edition or their choice of a previous edition (perhaps unbound if that's the state they're stored in)?

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>6 DMulvee: I value that this is limited. That's an enticement some of us considered when purchasing. I'm with >8 ChestnutPress: that destruction feels wasteful.

>7 Levin40: Well put. I think a finance update on this scope (perhaps in a private sharing, such as an email to the membership) would indeed be helpful.

I also don't know what was promised to Dr. Parkinson. Obviously hono(u)ring promises made is a must. However, if we are living in some murky grey area of assumptions, a simple conversation with the professor would likely easily get everyone on the same page. Even if we didn't make promises, but there were some expectations, I believe we should try our best to keep a good face for the press. Again, the last thing we want is for anyone to walk away sour, and this should be especially true that we want the professor to be happy with the experience on a whole.

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Anyhow, those are my initial thoughts. I'll also mention that it is enjoyable to be part of this forum of active discussion that feels weightier than talking in some of the other threads. (I like the other non-Consensus Press threads too. This one just feels neat!)

Sorry for the double post, but another way of framing my thoughts came to mind.

Let's consider these additional sheets as an asset. I believe it would be foolhardy to destroy them or give them away just for the sake of it. Given our previous speed of progression, I suggest that we not be hasty in this decision.

I encourage everyone to consider that the continuation of Consensus Press should be the #1 goal. Having the experiment successfully continue is what we set out to do. The next step would be to determine what objectives we wish to fulfill, taking into consideration our asset(s).

I suggest that ensuring that the allotted books are all received in good order should be the objective we tackle first.

...then we ask some questions:

Q) Do we need money in the coffers?
A) If yes, then maybe >2 wcarter:(5) eBaying some copies could be an idea.

Q) Are we looking to broaden our presence and/or leave our mark on the world?
A) If yes, then maybe we choose some institutions in addition to the professor's suggestions and consider donation.

Q) Do we want to retain some assets for future use, perhaps as an award for some of the free work we may need?
A) Maybe we keep some of these assets earmarked (not to be confused with dog-eared!).

Q) Do we want to have a back catalogue available for new members?
A) Maybe we keep some of these for that idea.

I'd have to mull it over before confirming my stance, but in my middle-of-the-night ponderings, it might be neat that some future members in good standing might be able to purchase from the back catalogue, based on availability. Perhaps members who've purchased 3 consecutive editions could then be allowed to purchase a book they might have missed. If there is too much demand, a lottery could work (and it would undoubtedly be of a very small population if it's even needed). I wouldn't be in favor of letting members buy additional duplicate copies, but having some available to future members who've missed a book helps encourage completionism, which I believe many people can appreciate in a library. This approach could also add desirability when encouraging potential new members.

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In sum though, we have an asset. Goal #1 is a successful ongoing press. The question is really what objectives we wish to fulfill such that we reach that ideal of a successful ongoing press.

Interesting discussion everyone, thanks. Couple more thoughts/question which just occurred to me.

- Has the limitation of this edition been fixed? Is it recorded in the colophon how many numbered copies + additional participators copies there will be? Or is this still open? This might have been discussed previously, but if so I don't remember.
- Was the use of the copyright material ever fixed via contract in our case, and was any payment ever made re this? If so, presumably things like recompense, whether financially or through extra copies of the book, were discussed then. I would assume that at least one copy was intended to be set aside for the professor from the outset. Is the issue here that he has recently come back requesting 5 additional copies? If so I would agree with >16 Tuna_Melon:: we should let him know that additional copies with fine press bindings are far from negligible cost-wise, it's a completely different ballgame to just knocking off a few extra copies of a machine-made mass market binding. He might not be aware of that.

>16 Tuna_Melon: "My suggestion is to do nothing with the extras at this point in time."

I agree. Though, to add nuance, doing "nothing" does come with (warehousing) cost.

>13 Glacierman: "Make unbound sheets available at cost + 10% & shipping to current members."

This seems like the most reasonable course of action, once any necessary replacements for defective copies have been handled.

I also think we should wait to do anything with the remaining sheets for now. If a promise was made to the professor we should honour that promise. I'm fine with him getting the 5 copies and paying for them if there was no explicit promise for him to receive more than one book.

If there the storage cost is low I think the additional sheets should be bound on demand in a different binding to that of the CP membership and offered to new members joining for the second book. That would take care of the binding cost. Additional funds could go towards upfront payment of services for the second edition. As Griffin has suggested having a paid manager would be more efficient the money could be used for that. If the promise was made to the professor for the 5 books the funds could be used to pay for the binding of the 5 books.

>1 consensuspress: You and I discussed this privately a while back when the possibility first manifested, and my take remains the same as then - the institutional copies should probably be bound the same as member copies and be marked as hors d'commerce in the colophon, while any further remaining pages should be held for potential binding in an alternate cover for new members to purchase. These extras would be unnumbered editions, or conceivably separately numbered "second editions".

Until we get clarity on what, if anything, might have been promised to the professor, I think we should do nothing. If we decide to print those 5 extra copies, it should be done in as cost-effective a way as possible. Perhaps the expense could be added to our next book.*

I am leery of binding the extra sheets and selling the books on eBay. It sounds good in theory, but I doubt that there would be a robust market for our Sinuhe, especially if there were many copies available. It's a relatively obscure work, and no one outside our group has ever heard of Consensus Press. I just don't see it selling for anything near what we paid for our copies. And I would be displeased to see the value of Sinuhe immediately plummet if we ended up selling these at much less than what the members paid. I know my perspective might be too commercial for some, but it's how I honestly feel.

It would be prudent to hold on to sheets in the event of members getting defective copies. How we would handle paying for any replacement copies, I don't know.

I like the thought of making sheets available to new/existing members for their own use. Again, not sure there would be a great deal of demand, especially if the procurer would have to handle the binding, but maybe I'm wrong.

* My apologies for this OT thought, but for the next book I believe we should require members to pay some kind of membership fee at the start of the process, which would be a down payment for the book (and anything extra required for more Sinuhe bindings could be added on). While I was happy overall with the process for Sinuhe, it rubbed me the wrong way that quite a few original members bailed at some point before buying Sinuhe, whether it was when their proposal wasn't advanced or when it came time to make payment or for some other reason. I think members should be committed to the entire process. It's not good for people to influence what book we produce with their votes and input but then flee when it comes time to pay.

>23 A.Nobody: I think members should be committed to the entire process. It's not good for people to influence what book we produce with their votes and input but then flee when it comes time to pay.

I concur, there needs to be a degree of investment in order to have a say.

I wonder if perhaps this outlay could be somewhat ameliorated for folks who pay but who don't like the final selection. Maybe there could be a broadside or something similar as an extra to all who pay the membership fee, so that they get something for their money regardless of how voting turns out? Just a thought, not necessarily a sound one.

>21 c_schelle: Agreeing with c_shelle. If we have someone who can hold onto the sheets or storage isn't astronomically expensive, lets keep them until everyone has received their book in good condition. I hope we do a second round of this, and hopefully we have may have a few more new members or existing members who want to purchase the first book. That could also cover the price of donating copies to institutions if that's something we want to do.

I don't think selling them on ebay etc feels in line with the vision for the press.

I’ll add to those suggesting:

1. Hold on to the extras until all members safely receive their copies.
2. Distribute the institutional copies either in sheets, OR request the professor / the institutions cover binding.
3. If storage IS NOT an issue, surplus copies should be held in sheets exclusively for future members to order and pay to have bound.

If storage IS an issue, my first thought would be to distribute them to any interested collaborating presses or craftspeople to do with as they see fit.

I’m not against an auction with a specific goal (e.g, donate to a literary charity or help fund the next publication), but eBay is definitely not the way to do something like that.

Adding as much information as I can:

1. The cost of binding each additional copy is ~$180.

2. Binding a copy during the editioning process is far cheaper than binding a one-off. If we were to turn around in three months and say to Alanna, "Can you bind four more of those?" the cost of each would be much higher than ~$180.

3. As it stands the money in the CP account (a ~4% high interest Amex savings account) is enough to cover Alanna's contract and the shipping to all 70 members – barely. But that's back of napkin.

4. As far as I know, Prof. Parkinson hasn't been promised anything. That said, I'm not the only person to have communicated with him, so it's possible another volunteer made a promise I don't know about.

5. The sheets aren't big. Storage of the sheets means that somebody would have to hold onto, like, a shoebox.

6. It's totally normal for Max to have printed this number of sheets as an overage.

Opinions:

1. Five copies is not unusual for Parkinson's level of involvement and the size of this edition. He's been more than generous, and I think it would be nice if we could find a way to be generous in return.

2. Members, to receive their Sinuhe , had to submit a proposal, vote on 150 other proposals, consider ten in-depth proposals, pay in advance, and wait two years. So I don't think somebody, at this point, should simply be able to buy a copy.

3. I'm personally in the "DO NOTHING" camp with the sheets. Here's my math:

There are 68 members of Consensus Press. The edition is 80. Richard is entitled to one. Prof. Parkinson is entitled to one. That's 70. Ten left, fully budgeted and accounted for.

The other promise we've made is that the Advisory Board members would get copies. As the *puffs up chest* Chair of the Advisory Board, I'm inclined to pull back slightly from that promise and gift copies to only the active Advisory Board members. That's two or three. (As an aside, I think the Advisory Board proved totally unnecessary and, if Consensus Press goes forward, it should be ditched.)

So, assuming nothing goes wrong in shipping, we have several copies left and can decide what to do with them then.

What to do with the ~20 unbound copies? Put them in a shoebox, and whoever is running the show for Consensus Press 2 has to hold onto them.

>28 grifgon: This all makes sense to me.

>28 grifgon: Totally agree with your opinions.

Regarding promises made to Herr Professor Doktor Parkinson, I have made none, so we are clear there. I did tell him that his request was forwarded for consideration, however, but that is all.

I would like to send a copy to the Fine Press Book Association to have it reviewed in their journal, Parenthesis. I believe review copies are returned to the press, but I've made an enquiry to be certain.

Regarding the limitation, it is stated in the colophon that the edition was 80 copies. The twenty sets in sheets are in addition to that.

As Griffin pointed out above, we do have those extra bound copies whose fate is to be determined. Holding on to them until everyone has received their copies safe and sound makes sense to me. At that time, institutional deposit copies can be distributed to whatever libraries we choose, giving primary consideration to Prof. Parkinson's wishes, but we should also have one or two on this side of the pond. We'll worry about this later, however.

As for the the unbound sets, after having slept on it and given due consideration to the issue, my official position is: do nothing at this time. Store them until some future date when it is determined what to do with them.

>28 grifgon: and >31 consensuspress: Agree with your comments. All prudent suggestions!

>23 A.Nobody: I agree with your comment regarding member commitment. I believe that the main issue with the original process was that certain individuals treated this endeavour as their 'ultimate wish list,' nominating, and most importantly, voting for books that would be very expensive to publish, with very little intention of actually paying for these books. Unless I am mistaken, 'Sinuhe' was number three on the final list; however, it was ultimately selected once the estimated costs of the other books were disclosed. I am not sure what the best solution is (e.g., request a deposit at the beginning of the process, limit the nominations to books that do not have copyrights, set a price limit and automatically eliminate nominations that would obviously be over the limit, etc.). Whatever it is, we should consider a way to avoid similar issues with our next book. Perhaps it will not be a significant issue with current members; however, if the plan is to admit new members, we may want to consider implementing steps to discourage the 'ultimate wish list' mentality.

>32 vadim_ca: Sinuhe was in second place, but the No. 1 was eliminated due to (1) Permissions issues and (2) another fine press was already doing it.

We think that going forward, unless a proposer has already secured permission, it would be best to stick to public domain works to save time. But we digress. Let us move this discussion to its own thread, as it is an important topic that needs to be resolved. I suggest we pick it up again after Sinuhe has been safely distributed.

I am in agreement with >28 grifgon:
That said, I would like to ask that in the future, we could maybe allocate more time for discussions and decisions. I am insanely busy lately at my work and sometimes do not visit librarything for days if not weeks. I try to check on discussions once in a while, but it would be a shame to miss on some important decision in the future.
It seems that a few Consensus Press members are in similar positions, because we do not have even close to 68 members involved in recent discussions.

>34 booksforreading: It may make sense during any putative future rounds to have a simple mailing list set up as well to inform users of important events outside of LT. Those are simple enough to create and can often be done at no cost.

I am coming to this late, but having read through all comments, I am also in agreement with >28 grifgon: and >31 consensuspress:. For the unbound sheets, I am fine with doing nothing for now, but I liked the idea of eventually offering them up to current or future members for a slight premium as a way to add a financial buffer should anything unexpected happen during the printing of a future book.

I agree to keep the extra sheets unbound for now. They should only be bound in this edition’s style if needed to replace copies affected by manufacturing defects or shipping damages.

Additionally, a contributor copy of the edition should be provided to Dr. Parkinson free of charge.

I've seen a lot of good sense talked in this thread and others in the last few weeks, and look forward to seeing Sinuhe cross the finish line and to what comes after that. I appreciate that, for me, since proposals finished CP has mostly involved sitting back and waiting to take full advantage of the efforts of others, and it may be that finding a way to change that balance is part of the considerations for the next round.

I agree with those who have said that we ought to be maximally appreciative to Prof. Parkinson and I would support doing whatever we can to accommodate his requests, so long as it doesn't require a fresh capital call at this point in the process. It's not that I wouldn't be open to that in the right circumstances, but I think it would be a challenge for the press right now.

Given where the budget sits, I think that simply retaining the extra sheets for now makes sense, and to the extent that my views are helpful I think that everyone involved in printing has managed the process incredibly well. Allowing new members to buy a set of sheets alongside the next volume seems like a sensible plan to both build a small reserve fund and hook new completists along the way, but that can be decided as and when the time comes. The shoebox will suffice until then.

+1 to >28 grifgon: and >31 consensuspress:

Regarding a review copy to Parenthesis, the reviewer will return it if requested providing that we (of course) pay the return postage. I think we should do this.

>40 Glacierman: Absolutely agreed!

Hello, all,

It appears that Sinuhe's journey is nearing its end—congratulations on a worthwhile effort! My understanding is that a consensus has not been reached on how to proceed with unbound sheets/additional copies. I happily throw my hat in the ring for an opportunity to secure one of the extra copies. At your convenience, please do advise on next steps once they have been determined.

Cheers!

>42 a.friend: Just to be clear, you're asking for an additional personal copy, right? It was my understanding that everyone posting here is already a member of Consensus Press and by extension must have purchased a copy (though I could be mistaken on that). If so then, yes, that would be one option for dealing with the extra copies. If that option is adopted probably everyone who is interested in an extra copy should enter a lottery for them.

>43 Levin40: I apologize for being unclear. I am not a founding member of CP. I'm interested in potentially being a part of the complete process for the next book, but this time around I'm on the outside looking in re: copies that exceed membership size.

>44 a.friend: Ok interesting, I thought only members could post here. But clear, thanks.

To resurrect this thread: nothing has been done with the unbound sheets at this point, correct?

My suggestion would be as follows: allow current members to purchase sets at cost plus shipping if interested. If there's more interest than sets, randomly draw names.

The funds from the sale could then go to a CP pot to be used toward book three expenses.

Edited to add: purchasers would not be permitted to use the CP colophon or ape too closely the existing binding. Failure to adhere to this rule would result in bad karma and an unquiet conscience.

At the present time, we do still have some sets of slightly damaged unbound sheets. Griffin is sitting on them for us. The 'existing CP colophon' is not a separate thing, but part of one of the sheets. These copies are not numbered and I do not believe they are signed, either. And to not reproduce the original issue CP binding is a reasonable requirement.

What is to be done with them is entirely up to you, the members.

>47 consensuspress: Thanks for that insight. Now that you mention it, I remember reading in another thread that they were damaged.

>48 Shotcaller: The damage amounts to some bent corners, which I suspect can be fixed by a competent binder.

>49 Glacierman: Good to know! In that case, I’ll keep my suggestion as is.

>50 Shotcaller: See my post in the Director's Corner.

>51 consensuspress: 🫡

>51 consensuspress: What the Director said. But please post photos of your variants if you make one...

Bonus for any custom binding that ends up looking like a sarcophagus or stele!

>54 Shadekeep: Ha! I was thinking of a cover photo of some Consensus Press members dressed as the Bangles, in honor of their hit 1986 single "Walk Like An Egyptian."

>55 Shotcaller: For said photo, why not wrap yourself in linen wraps in honor of Steve Martin's "King Tut" (1978)?