'Toxic Christianity': evangelical & conservative RC champions for Trump 3
This is a continuation of the topic 'Toxic Christianity': the evangelicals creating champions for Trump 2.
This topic was continued by 'Conservative' Evangelicals & RCs champion Christian Nationalism, Trump 4.
Talk Christianity
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1margd
Aaron Rupar @atrupar.com | January 24, 2025 at 1:14 PM (bsky.app)
REPORTER: Any talk on having money instead of doing through FEMA, to go local groups?
TRUMP: Yeah. That's what I want to do. We want to bring it locally, so that a state takes care of its problem, and then they can bring it down to a local level like Samaritan's Purse and Franklin Graham
Trump video (https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lgiysw4dnh2m)
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Texas televangelist Joel Osteen is roasted as Hurricane Beryl slams Houston seven years after Hurricane Harvey scandal
MARYANN MARTINEZ | 8 July 2024
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/texas/article-13612789/Texas-televangelist-Joel...
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Trump administration strips schools, churches of immigration enforcement protections
Ximena Bustillo, Sergio Martínez-Beltrán | January 21, 2025
Immigration authorities can now enter schools, healthcare facilities and places of worship to conduct arrests, according to a new policy from the Department of Homeland Security.
"Criminals will no longer be able to hide in America's schools and churches to avoid arrest," a DHS spokesperson said in a statement. "The Trump administration will not tie the hands of our brave law enforcement, and instead trusts them to use common sense."
The directive, which covers agents from Immigration and Customs Enforcement and Customs and Border Protection, rescinds guidance from the Biden administration that created "protected areas" that primarily consisted of places where "children gather, disaster or emergency relief sites, and social services establishments."
The Biden-era guideline mandated that immigration enforcement operations shouldn't take place in or near a location that would limit peoples' access to "essential" services or activities ...
https://www.npr.org/2025/01/21/nx-s1-5269899/trump-immigration-enforcement-schoo...
REPORTER: Any talk on having money instead of doing through FEMA, to go local groups?
TRUMP: Yeah. That's what I want to do. We want to bring it locally, so that a state takes care of its problem, and then they can bring it down to a local level like Samaritan's Purse and Franklin Graham
Trump video (https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lgiysw4dnh2m)
--------------------------------------------------
Texas televangelist Joel Osteen is roasted as Hurricane Beryl slams Houston seven years after Hurricane Harvey scandal
MARYANN MARTINEZ | 8 July 2024
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/texas/article-13612789/Texas-televangelist-Joel...
--------------------------------------------------
Trump administration strips schools, churches of immigration enforcement protections
Ximena Bustillo, Sergio Martínez-Beltrán | January 21, 2025
Immigration authorities can now enter schools, healthcare facilities and places of worship to conduct arrests, according to a new policy from the Department of Homeland Security.
"Criminals will no longer be able to hide in America's schools and churches to avoid arrest," a DHS spokesperson said in a statement. "The Trump administration will not tie the hands of our brave law enforcement, and instead trusts them to use common sense."
The directive, which covers agents from Immigration and Customs Enforcement and Customs and Border Protection, rescinds guidance from the Biden administration that created "protected areas" that primarily consisted of places where "children gather, disaster or emergency relief sites, and social services establishments."
The Biden-era guideline mandated that immigration enforcement operations shouldn't take place in or near a location that would limit peoples' access to "essential" services or activities ...
https://www.npr.org/2025/01/21/nx-s1-5269899/trump-immigration-enforcement-schoo...
2eschator83
Other than pretty radical hostility, this seems incoherent. Could you have forgotten to try to express positive thoughts?
3margd
Trump pardons protesters convicted of blocking access to abortion clinics.
DOJ drops charges against MD charged with leaking records on trans patients
DOJ drops charges against MD charged with leaking records on trans patients
4margd
Trump nominates Hucklebee as US Ambassasor to Israel and proposes "clean out" Gaza / pressures Egypt and Jordan to take in more than a million Gazans.
9John5918
>8 brone:
All I can do is repeat what I have posted elsewhere, that British police figures show that just a fraction of child sexual abuse allegations – 0.6% – relate to grooming and abuse by male groups or gangs.
All I can do is repeat what I have posted elsewhere, that British police figures show that just a fraction of child sexual abuse allegations – 0.6% – relate to grooming and abuse by male groups or gangs.
11John5918
>10 brone:
I think "the sexual abuse crimes covered up by men in religious life" have been covered up for far longer than "the last 25 years"; certainly for most of the last couple of centuries, and probably for centuries before that. Thankfully the increased openness of both Church and society since the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s opened the door for the vast majority of these crimes to be addressed and for robust safeguarding measures to be widely introduced; sadly there are still, and probably always will be, a small number which slip through the net and are being addressed too slowly. Criminals have always existed and always will in every sphere of life, as will those who collude to protect them.
The "sexual abuse by Muslim gangs", a part of the tiny proportion (0.6%) of sexual crimes which involves gangs or groups, has been and is being addressed, but it's best left to the professionals and not to kneejerk populist ideology. The police also have to deal with the 99.4% of sexual crimes which are not committed by gangs or groups of men (and women), whether Muslim or Scottish (link) or anything else. There can always be criticism of police actions, but they are overseen by various independent and government bodies, as well as being held to account by a free press, and there have been various inquiries and commissions into the particular case which seems to draw your attention. Incidentally, as far as I can remember you have still cited no source or other traceable information about the Pakistani man arrested in Wakefield who claimed not to know that rape was against the law whom you have mentioned in a number of your recent posts.
I think "the sexual abuse crimes covered up by men in religious life" have been covered up for far longer than "the last 25 years"; certainly for most of the last couple of centuries, and probably for centuries before that. Thankfully the increased openness of both Church and society since the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s opened the door for the vast majority of these crimes to be addressed and for robust safeguarding measures to be widely introduced; sadly there are still, and probably always will be, a small number which slip through the net and are being addressed too slowly. Criminals have always existed and always will in every sphere of life, as will those who collude to protect them.
The "sexual abuse by Muslim gangs", a part of the tiny proportion (0.6%) of sexual crimes which involves gangs or groups, has been and is being addressed, but it's best left to the professionals and not to kneejerk populist ideology. The police also have to deal with the 99.4% of sexual crimes which are not committed by gangs or groups of men (and women), whether Muslim or Scottish (link) or anything else. There can always be criticism of police actions, but they are overseen by various independent and government bodies, as well as being held to account by a free press, and there have been various inquiries and commissions into the particular case which seems to draw your attention. Incidentally, as far as I can remember you have still cited no source or other traceable information about the Pakistani man arrested in Wakefield who claimed not to know that rape was against the law whom you have mentioned in a number of your recent posts.
132wonderY
Grand Rapids priest fired after video surfaces of mimicked Musk straight-arm salute
https://www.fox17online.com/news/local-news/grand-rapids/grand-rapids-priest-fir...
——
This is his fourth firing from a church.
https://www.fox17online.com/news/local-news/grand-rapids/grand-rapids-priest-fir...
——
This is his fourth firing from a church.
14John5918
>12 brone:
Thanks for finally giving us a name for the mysterious Pakistani from Wakefield, although you omit to give us a link to the particular story you refer to, so I have googled Adil Rashid.
Of course the vast majority of stories were about Adil Rashid the England and Yorkshire cricketer, who is famous (and much loved) not only for his prowess as a spin bowler but also for standing up against racism in English cricket. He's from Bradford, not Wakefield.
The only relevant story that I can find is in the Daily Mail, a right wing tabloid which is not noted for the accuracy of its reporting, but it's the best we can do in the absence of a link to the story which you read but omitted to give us a link. I've also found the same basic story reposted on several right wing websites. This is a story from 2013 (ie 12 years ago), although for some reason it was updated in 2018. It makes no mention of Rashid being a Pakistani (in fact he is from Birmingham in the UK Midlands) nor of Wakefield - the crime was committed in Nottingham. Wakefield is not even in the same county as Birmingham or Nottingham. While the Mail's headline implies that the accused did not know that rape is a crime because he is a Muslim, in fact that is not what the judge said. According to the Mail, "Judge Michael Stokes handed Rashid a suspended sentence, saying: ‘Although chronologically 18, it is quite clear from the reports that you are very naive and immature when it comes to sexual matters’", without suggesting that this was because of a Muslim education. There are many young and immature men in both UK and USA, including in prestigious universities, who have raped girls and women (so called "date rape") because they don't understand the law on consent. So egregious was the misleading reporting by some of the media which reposted the story that attempts were made to corect the error, eg Edit the misleading headline "Rapist spared for being Islamic student".
I know I'm wasting my time telling you, but this is a prime example of why I believe it is important to post links, so that we can all read around the issue and get a fuller picture, rather than just the limited sound bites available in an LT thread.
Thanks for finally giving us a name for the mysterious Pakistani from Wakefield, although you omit to give us a link to the particular story you refer to, so I have googled Adil Rashid.
Of course the vast majority of stories were about Adil Rashid the England and Yorkshire cricketer, who is famous (and much loved) not only for his prowess as a spin bowler but also for standing up against racism in English cricket. He's from Bradford, not Wakefield.
The only relevant story that I can find is in the Daily Mail, a right wing tabloid which is not noted for the accuracy of its reporting, but it's the best we can do in the absence of a link to the story which you read but omitted to give us a link. I've also found the same basic story reposted on several right wing websites. This is a story from 2013 (ie 12 years ago), although for some reason it was updated in 2018. It makes no mention of Rashid being a Pakistani (in fact he is from Birmingham in the UK Midlands) nor of Wakefield - the crime was committed in Nottingham. Wakefield is not even in the same county as Birmingham or Nottingham. While the Mail's headline implies that the accused did not know that rape is a crime because he is a Muslim, in fact that is not what the judge said. According to the Mail, "Judge Michael Stokes handed Rashid a suspended sentence, saying: ‘Although chronologically 18, it is quite clear from the reports that you are very naive and immature when it comes to sexual matters’", without suggesting that this was because of a Muslim education. There are many young and immature men in both UK and USA, including in prestigious universities, who have raped girls and women (so called "date rape") because they don't understand the law on consent. So egregious was the misleading reporting by some of the media which reposted the story that attempts were made to corect the error, eg Edit the misleading headline "Rapist spared for being Islamic student".
I know I'm wasting my time telling you, but this is a prime example of why I believe it is important to post links, so that we can all read around the issue and get a fuller picture, rather than just the limited sound bites available in an LT thread.
16John5918
>15 brone:
With all due respect, your claims can all be read as "fake news" unless you can link to some evidence for them. The British police themselves (not noted for their sensitivity towards minorites, I might add) state that only 0.6% of reported sexual crimes are committed by gangs or groups. There is no "mass rape of English girls by mostly Pakistani Muslims". And once again you are heaping opprobrium on whole groups of straw persons. And you still haven't explained to me what you mean by "gaslighting", as your interpretation does not appear to fit any definition of the term which I can find on the internet. Do you simply mean that I disagree with you and I post links to credible information which supports my understanding rather than yours? Is that gaslighting?
As for the 2nd amendment, I think you'll find that most people in Britain are horrified at the thought of ordinary civilians being allowed to own guns, and are very cautious even about the police use of firearms.
With all due respect, your claims can all be read as "fake news" unless you can link to some evidence for them. The British police themselves (not noted for their sensitivity towards minorites, I might add) state that only 0.6% of reported sexual crimes are committed by gangs or groups. There is no "mass rape of English girls by mostly Pakistani Muslims". And once again you are heaping opprobrium on whole groups of straw persons. And you still haven't explained to me what you mean by "gaslighting", as your interpretation does not appear to fit any definition of the term which I can find on the internet. Do you simply mean that I disagree with you and I post links to credible information which supports my understanding rather than yours? Is that gaslighting?
As for the 2nd amendment, I think you'll find that most people in Britain are horrified at the thought of ordinary civilians being allowed to own guns, and are very cautious even about the police use of firearms.
18bnielsen
>17 brone: "killing each other with kitchen knives".
That is a clear improvement over guns, since 1. you have to be much closer to someone to use a kitchen knife. 2. most kitchen knives are not terribly sharp anymore. 3. the medics have a fair chance of saving the life of a victim. 4. you can't buy an automatic assault knife.
That is a clear improvement over guns, since 1. you have to be much closer to someone to use a kitchen knife. 2. most kitchen knives are not terribly sharp anymore. 3. the medics have a fair chance of saving the life of a victim. 4. you can't buy an automatic assault knife.
19John5918
>17 brone:
I'm really not sure what your point is. The intentional homicide rate in UK (2021 figures) was 1.148 per 100,000 inhabitants, total 684 victims, while USA (2023 figures) was 5.763 per 100,000, total 19,796 victims (link). So British people who generally only have access to knives, clubs and fists are five times safer than Americans who also have to face firearms.
I'm really not sure what your point is. The intentional homicide rate in UK (2021 figures) was 1.148 per 100,000 inhabitants, total 684 victims, while USA (2023 figures) was 5.763 per 100,000, total 19,796 victims (link). So British people who generally only have access to knives, clubs and fists are five times safer than Americans who also have to face firearms.
20bnielsen
>19 John5918: Same ball park as Denmark (latest figure I've seen is 0.8).
21margd
Senate confirms Project 2025 architect Russell Vought to lead powerful White House budget office
STEPHEN GROVES | February 6, 2025
... Writing in the Heritage Foundation’s Project 2025, Vought described the White House budget director’s job “as the best, most comprehensive approximation of the President’s mind.”
The OMB, he declared, “is a President’s air-traffic control system” and should be “involved in all aspects of the White House policy process,” becoming “powerful enough to override implementing agencies’ bureaucracies.”
During Trump’s first term, Vought pushed to reclassify tens of thousands of federal workers as political appointees, which could then enable mass dismissals.
Vought has also been a proponent of the president using “impoundment” to expand the executive branch’s control over federal spending.
When Congress passes appropriations to fulfill its Constitutional duties, it determines funding for government programs. But the impoundment legal theory holds that the president can decide not to spend that money on anything he deems unnecessary because Article II of the Constitution gives the president the role of executing the laws that Congress passes.
During confirmation hearings, Vought stressed that he would follow the law but avoided answering Democrats’ questions on whether he would withhold congressionally allotted aid for Ukraine.
Democrats charged that Vought’s responses amounted to an acknowledgment that he believes the president is above the law.
In response to questions from Republican lawmakers, Vought did preview potential budget proposals that would target cuts to discretionary social programs.
“The president ran on the issue of fiscal accountability, dealing with our inflation situation,” he said.
Vought has also unabashedly advanced “ Christian nationalism,” an idea rising in the GOP that the United States was founded as a Christian nation and the government should now be infused with Christianity.
In a 2021 opinion article, Vought wrote that Christian nationalism is “a commitment to an institutional separation between church and state, but not the separation of Christianity from its influence on government and society.”
https://apnews.com/article/trump-russell-vought-confirmation-budget-project-2025...
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Aaron Rupar @atrupar.com | February 6, 2025
{Sen} Merkley on Russ Vought: "He was the one who impounded the funds, illegally, for Ukraine, and it led to the president's first impeachment ... he's repeating the same things now."
CNN (https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lhjjeg524h2e)
STEPHEN GROVES | February 6, 2025
... Writing in the Heritage Foundation’s Project 2025, Vought described the White House budget director’s job “as the best, most comprehensive approximation of the President’s mind.”
The OMB, he declared, “is a President’s air-traffic control system” and should be “involved in all aspects of the White House policy process,” becoming “powerful enough to override implementing agencies’ bureaucracies.”
During Trump’s first term, Vought pushed to reclassify tens of thousands of federal workers as political appointees, which could then enable mass dismissals.
Vought has also been a proponent of the president using “impoundment” to expand the executive branch’s control over federal spending.
When Congress passes appropriations to fulfill its Constitutional duties, it determines funding for government programs. But the impoundment legal theory holds that the president can decide not to spend that money on anything he deems unnecessary because Article II of the Constitution gives the president the role of executing the laws that Congress passes.
During confirmation hearings, Vought stressed that he would follow the law but avoided answering Democrats’ questions on whether he would withhold congressionally allotted aid for Ukraine.
Democrats charged that Vought’s responses amounted to an acknowledgment that he believes the president is above the law.
In response to questions from Republican lawmakers, Vought did preview potential budget proposals that would target cuts to discretionary social programs.
“The president ran on the issue of fiscal accountability, dealing with our inflation situation,” he said.
Vought has also unabashedly advanced “ Christian nationalism,” an idea rising in the GOP that the United States was founded as a Christian nation and the government should now be infused with Christianity.
In a 2021 opinion article, Vought wrote that Christian nationalism is “a commitment to an institutional separation between church and state, but not the separation of Christianity from its influence on government and society.”
https://apnews.com/article/trump-russell-vought-confirmation-budget-project-2025...
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Aaron Rupar @atrupar.com | February 6, 2025
{Sen} Merkley on Russ Vought: "He was the one who impounded the funds, illegally, for Ukraine, and it led to the president's first impeachment ... he's repeating the same things now."
CNN (https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lhjjeg524h2e)
22margd
A short honeymoon for Catholics in D.C. as Vice President Vance clashes with bishops on migration
PETER SMITH | February 6, 2025
... The new vice president {JD Vance}, a Catholic convert, accused the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops of resettling “illegal immigrants” in order to get federal funding. New York Cardinal Timothy Dolan, who gave the invocation shortly before Vance took his oath of office, denounced the remarks as “scurrilous” and “nasty.”
Vance has claimed that a concept from medieval Catholic theology — “ordo amoris” in Latin — justifies the Trump administration’s America-first immigration crackdown. He contended that the concept delineates a hierarchy of care — to family first, followed by neighbor, community, fellow citizens and lastly those elsewhere.
... Vance received support from ... those in a largely Catholic movement he identifies with, known as postliberalism. It combines a social conservativism with a belief in using the power of the state to promote Christian values and build community. The movement's leading thinkers have advocated for precisely the sort of sweeping “regime change” underway in the Trump administration, cheering its largescale cuts to the federal agencies and workforces deemed antithetical to these goals.
The Catholic rift comes as leading bishops applauded some of the new Trump administration initiatives. Statements from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops welcomed executive orders supporting “ school choice," rolling back federal support for gender transitions and requiring foreign agencies receiving U.S. aid to certify that they don’t provide or promote abortion.
... Trump has nominated a leading conservative Catholic activist, Brian Burch, president of CatholicVote, as Vatican ambassador — even as Pope Francis appointed a relatively progressive cardinal, Robert McElroy, as archbishop of Washington ...
https://www.yahoo.com/news/short-honeymoon-catholics-d-c-130201365.html
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What is 'ordo amoris?' Vice President JD Vance invokes this medieval Catholic concept
The Associated Press | February 6, 2025
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ordo-amoris-vice-president-jd-130320114.html
PETER SMITH | February 6, 2025
... The new vice president {JD Vance}, a Catholic convert, accused the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops of resettling “illegal immigrants” in order to get federal funding. New York Cardinal Timothy Dolan, who gave the invocation shortly before Vance took his oath of office, denounced the remarks as “scurrilous” and “nasty.”
Vance has claimed that a concept from medieval Catholic theology — “ordo amoris” in Latin — justifies the Trump administration’s America-first immigration crackdown. He contended that the concept delineates a hierarchy of care — to family first, followed by neighbor, community, fellow citizens and lastly those elsewhere.
... Vance received support from ... those in a largely Catholic movement he identifies with, known as postliberalism. It combines a social conservativism with a belief in using the power of the state to promote Christian values and build community. The movement's leading thinkers have advocated for precisely the sort of sweeping “regime change” underway in the Trump administration, cheering its largescale cuts to the federal agencies and workforces deemed antithetical to these goals.
The Catholic rift comes as leading bishops applauded some of the new Trump administration initiatives. Statements from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops welcomed executive orders supporting “ school choice," rolling back federal support for gender transitions and requiring foreign agencies receiving U.S. aid to certify that they don’t provide or promote abortion.
... Trump has nominated a leading conservative Catholic activist, Brian Burch, president of CatholicVote, as Vatican ambassador — even as Pope Francis appointed a relatively progressive cardinal, Robert McElroy, as archbishop of Washington ...
https://www.yahoo.com/news/short-honeymoon-catholics-d-c-130201365.html
--------------------------------------------------
What is 'ordo amoris?' Vice President JD Vance invokes this medieval Catholic concept
The Associated Press | February 6, 2025
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ordo-amoris-vice-president-jd-130320114.html
23margd
Trump campaigned that Democrats 'abandoned' Catholics. His USAID crusade will decimate the Catholic relief agency
Josh Marcus | February 5, 2025
... The Trump administration’s ongoing effort to shut down or massively cut the U.S. Agency for International Development is putting the future of a major Catholic relief agency at risk, despite the Republican portraying himself as an ally to Catholics on the campaign trail.
Catholic Relief Services, founded in 1943 by U.S. Catholic bishops, is the single largest recipient of funds from the development agency, which funds around half of the religious aid group’s $1.5 billion budget.
Leaders of the group, where layoffs have already begun, warned staff of major changes because of the political climate.
... Catholic Relief Services provides emergency and disaster assistance, as well as funding programs related to water, sanitation, agriculture, health and other areas serving an estimated 200 million people across over 100 countries ...
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-campaigned-democrats-abandoned-catholics-204405...
Josh Marcus | February 5, 2025
... The Trump administration’s ongoing effort to shut down or massively cut the U.S. Agency for International Development is putting the future of a major Catholic relief agency at risk, despite the Republican portraying himself as an ally to Catholics on the campaign trail.
Catholic Relief Services, founded in 1943 by U.S. Catholic bishops, is the single largest recipient of funds from the development agency, which funds around half of the religious aid group’s $1.5 billion budget.
Leaders of the group, where layoffs have already begun, warned staff of major changes because of the political climate.
... Catholic Relief Services provides emergency and disaster assistance, as well as funding programs related to water, sanitation, agriculture, health and other areas serving an estimated 200 million people across over 100 countries ...
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-campaigned-democrats-abandoned-catholics-204405...
25John5918
>24 brone:
Demonstrable facts. Can you produce credible statistics which differ significantly from these?
Demonstrable facts. Can you produce credible statistics which differ significantly from these?
26margd
>22 margd: contd.
Jesus wept.
Pope Francis’s Stunning Rebuke of JD Vance Exposes MAGA’s Dark Soul
Greg Sargent | February 12, 2025
The vice president took a stab at theology to defend the administration’s rank cruelty. Then a higher authority weighed in ...
https://newrepublic.com/article/191427/pope-francis-jd-vance-maga-dark-soul
Jesus wept.
Pope Francis’s Stunning Rebuke of JD Vance Exposes MAGA’s Dark Soul
Greg Sargent | February 12, 2025
The vice president took a stab at theology to defend the administration’s rank cruelty. Then a higher authority weighed in ...
https://newrepublic.com/article/191427/pope-francis-jd-vance-maga-dark-soul
27John5918
UK populists mix faith and politics with parroting of ‘Judeo-Christian values’ (Guardian)
Rightwingers in Britain are beguiled by the potential of religious rhetoric after its use by Trump and Vance in the US...
29John5918
>28 brone: why do the bishops need their very own migrant legal service
Presumably so they can offer free legal advice to those who are trying to enter and remain in the USA legally, which is one aspect of the gospel command to welcome the stranger.
Presumably so they can offer free legal advice to those who are trying to enter and remain in the USA legally, which is one aspect of the gospel command to welcome the stranger.
30John5918
The American detox (Tablet)
The Catholic Church in the United States is being overhauled, and the change is coming from the top down... The change has been a long time coming. Sometimes, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops has seemed like a Francis-free zone. American bishops have done precisely nothing to make Laudato si’ a priority for the US Church. Catholic Charities and other charitable organisations help millions of poor people every day, but the conference has done little to catechise the people in the pews about the moral dangers of trickle-down, neoliberal economics. In preparing their quadrennial document on voting in the presidential elections, in 2019 and 2023 the bishops made abortion their “pre-eminent priority”, ignoring the Pope’s insistence that all life issues should command Catholics’ attention. The implementation of synodality, Pope Francis’ signature ecclesial reform, has been uneven at best. By the time all these vacant and soon-to-be vacant archdioceses are filled, the leadership of the Church is likely to be far more “Francis-friendly”... What these “Rigali bishops” shared was a propensity for engaging in the culture wars, a set of struggles over neuralgic issues like abortion, feminism, gay rights and racial quotas in which politics swamps culture, all differences of opinion are viewed as a zero-sum game and prelates and clergy are invited to adopt a stance of prophetic denunciation of the party opposite, whichever party that might be. In the ambient society, there are culture warriors on both left and right, but among the hierarchy the culture warriors are found only on the right. The culture warriors’ stance was epitomised in their effort to weaponise the sacraments by seeking to deny the Eucharist to politicians who were pro-choice on abortion. Pope Francis values bishops who are pastors above all else, pastors who accompany their people regardless of their political opinions, who recognise and deplore the way the culture wars spread toxicity and politicise church life, and who have witnessed the diminishment of Catholic moral concern as the US bishops’ conference increasingly highlighted the abortion issue to the exclusion of all else. The Pope’s remarkable letter to the US bishops of 10 February, demonstrating how they can and should address the crisis posed by President Trump’s attack on migrants, was only necessary because of that diminishment of Catholic moral concern. “The happy irony of this shift to a more pastoral approach is that it may actually encourage people to be more open to Catholic teaching,” says Cathleen Kaveny, professor of theology and law at Boston College. “A culture war approach is counter-productive. No one changes their mind when a bishop treats them with prophetic contempt.” Soon after his election, Francis began taking steps to pull the US hierarchy back from the culture war cliff and put it on a more pastoral path... Cardinal Robert McElroy is the US Church’s most articulate defender of Catholic Social Teaching. No US bishop has spent more time thinking and writing about the political life of the nation, and the uncertainties occasioned by Trump’s election required someone with McElroy’s intellectual heft. Conservatives will be pleasantly surprised to discover how ardently pro-life he is... Not every vacancy will be filled with someone closely aligned with the Pope, but each appointment is likely to reflect a shift away from a preoccupation with the culture wars. So a hard-line conservative might be replaced with a moderate conservative, as happened in Houston. And a moderate might be replaced with a strong Francis supporter, as happened in Cincinnati. In Detroit, the shift was larger: Vigneron was a hard-liner, and Weisenburger is a strong supporter of Pope Francis. Changes at the top will require yet more time to seep down to the people in the pews... As well as the priests, many of the people in the pews are conservative as well, and these new archbishops are not going to kick them to the kerb the way the culture warriors dismissed liberal Catholics. The goal of Pope Francis is not to replace conservative culture warriors with liberal ones, but to ensure all major archdioceses are led by pastors first and foremost...
31margd
A vision worth fighting for: A Canadian response to JD Vance
Matthew A. MacDonald |
... (JD Vance) asked European leaders what their positive vision is
... On the topic of life, I know that Vance is very concerned about abortion, so I might add that the U.S. rate of abortion is almost 20% higher than that of Canada, despite Canada's very permissive laws. Also, when my son had cancer, his surgery and chemotherapy were completely covered by our public health care system. Another win for life.
Meanwhile, in the U.S., children without insurance are 1.26 times more likely to die from cancer than those with insurance and have a shorter survival time. Call me Catholic, but I think no child should ever have to die because their family can't afford treatment (CCC, No. 2411).
None of that is specific to Canada; most developed countries, besides the U.S., provide for health care for all citizens, regardless of ability to pay. Yet it is emblematic of a positive vision I think is worth defending, one the U.S. is not known for. A vision of a society where, consistent with Catholic doctrine, social relations are based on love and mutual respect for everyone's inherent human dignity (CCC, No. 2423), profit is not the ultimate goal of the economy (CCC, No. 2424), and the government is committed to "reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view of the common good" (CCC, No. 2425) — someone should tell Musk that (although, as a billionaire atheist transhumanist, I doubt he'll care). Of course, that's a vision of a Catholic society, not necessarily Canada — but certainly not the U.S., from what I see...
https://www.ncronline.org/opinion/guest-voices/vision-worth-fighting-canadian-re...
Matthew A. MacDonald |
... (JD Vance) asked European leaders what their positive vision is
... On the topic of life, I know that Vance is very concerned about abortion, so I might add that the U.S. rate of abortion is almost 20% higher than that of Canada, despite Canada's very permissive laws. Also, when my son had cancer, his surgery and chemotherapy were completely covered by our public health care system. Another win for life.
Meanwhile, in the U.S., children without insurance are 1.26 times more likely to die from cancer than those with insurance and have a shorter survival time. Call me Catholic, but I think no child should ever have to die because their family can't afford treatment (CCC, No. 2411).
None of that is specific to Canada; most developed countries, besides the U.S., provide for health care for all citizens, regardless of ability to pay. Yet it is emblematic of a positive vision I think is worth defending, one the U.S. is not known for. A vision of a society where, consistent with Catholic doctrine, social relations are based on love and mutual respect for everyone's inherent human dignity (CCC, No. 2423), profit is not the ultimate goal of the economy (CCC, No. 2424), and the government is committed to "reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view of the common good" (CCC, No. 2425) — someone should tell Musk that (although, as a billionaire atheist transhumanist, I doubt he'll care). Of course, that's a vision of a Catholic society, not necessarily Canada — but certainly not the U.S., from what I see...
https://www.ncronline.org/opinion/guest-voices/vision-worth-fighting-canadian-re...
33TheToadRevoltof84
>32 brone: I do appreciate your effort. You're dealing with folks that paste articles as if that means it's fact. Sources are facts for them. They do not reason with anything. God is truth but they don't believe that. Good luck in your endeavor, but you'd have better luck getting a horse to use a fork. They must actually find God and its hard when you're using Him as a tool for your own benefit.
34John5918
>33 TheToadRevoltof84:
Interesting comment. I would say no. People are pasting articles to spark conversations, not "as if that means it's fact", but the spark is usually doused with ad hominem responses, or with innuendo, hearsay and ideological, er, opinions, certainly not with facts nor analysis which refute the articles. Sources are not facts, but both sources and facts can be checked. Pasting the articles with a citation gives all of us, including your good self and brone, the opportunity to read them in context and to assess for ourselves the credibility of the source and the veracity of the facts. Pasting random comments, opinions, social media posts, soundbites, etc, without attribution doesn't.
And what you say about finding God and using God as a tool for one's own benefit is often true; far right political ideology and its promoters and supporters have certainly tried to co-opt Christianity for their own benefit, hence the title of this thread.
Interesting comment. I would say no. People are pasting articles to spark conversations, not "as if that means it's fact", but the spark is usually doused with ad hominem responses, or with innuendo, hearsay and ideological, er, opinions, certainly not with facts nor analysis which refute the articles. Sources are not facts, but both sources and facts can be checked. Pasting the articles with a citation gives all of us, including your good self and brone, the opportunity to read them in context and to assess for ourselves the credibility of the source and the veracity of the facts. Pasting random comments, opinions, social media posts, soundbites, etc, without attribution doesn't.
And what you say about finding God and using God as a tool for one's own benefit is often true; far right political ideology and its promoters and supporters have certainly tried to co-opt Christianity for their own benefit, hence the title of this thread.
35TheToadRevoltof84
Matthew 16:23
I already stated to brone the futile effort and pointless discussion. I won't bother engaging you further.
As for the other individual above thinking murder with a knife is better. I've actually never heard anything less ridiculous. And forget the actual article pasting, I won't even say...
I already stated to brone the futile effort and pointless discussion. I won't bother engaging you further.
As for the other individual above thinking murder with a knife is better. I've actually never heard anything less ridiculous. And forget the actual article pasting, I won't even say...
36John5918
>35 TheToadRevoltof84:
Well, that is part of my point. There are posters here who are not interested in being involved in conversations, simply making statements and then being unwilling to engage on those statements. As you wish.
But Matthew 16:23 is a good verse for this conversation, as the topic is indeed about those who "do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns", in the form of right wing political ideology.
Well, that is part of my point. There are posters here who are not interested in being involved in conversations, simply making statements and then being unwilling to engage on those statements. As you wish.
But Matthew 16:23 is a good verse for this conversation, as the topic is indeed about those who "do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns", in the form of right wing political ideology.
37TheToadRevoltof84
>36 John5918:
It really wasn't part of your point. Your point was completely without reflection on the behavior of a large swath of Marxists on this site and instead point only at those you don't mind offending. At no point is pasting an article providing a true conversation and in general providing any insight to a matter from what I have read. It's generally just nonsense that gets posted without any true reflection or debate attached. Instead of posting something to debate, they drag some propagandistic garbage that nobody must defend from bluesky or other USAID funded attack journalists. It's not a conversation, and it's certainly not worth discussing.
Here's something worth discussing.
1. Why did Christ have to die for our sins?
2. When is it okay to commit violence?
3. How do you believe one makes it to Heaven?
It really wasn't part of your point. Your point was completely without reflection on the behavior of a large swath of Marxists on this site and instead point only at those you don't mind offending. At no point is pasting an article providing a true conversation and in general providing any insight to a matter from what I have read. It's generally just nonsense that gets posted without any true reflection or debate attached. Instead of posting something to debate, they drag some propagandistic garbage that nobody must defend from bluesky or other USAID funded attack journalists. It's not a conversation, and it's certainly not worth discussing.
Here's something worth discussing.
1. Why did Christ have to die for our sins?
2. When is it okay to commit violence?
3. How do you believe one makes it to Heaven?
38John5918
>37 TheToadRevoltof84:
This thread (which was not started by me) is not about Marxists (and I truly doubt if there are any Marxists posting here, although there are certainly people who are to the left of brone and your good self), it's about the co-opting of Christianity for far right ideology - "'Toxic Christianity': evangelical & conservative RC champions for Trump". People post articles which they believe are examples of this. If you disagree with an article it would be helpful if you would discuss it, rather than making sweeping generalisations.
As for the three questions you pose, they are indeed valid questions for a Christianity group. Why don't you start threads on them for discussion?
Just out of interest, does you username have any particular significance? I'm intrigued by "Toad Revolt".
This thread (which was not started by me) is not about Marxists (and I truly doubt if there are any Marxists posting here, although there are certainly people who are to the left of brone and your good self), it's about the co-opting of Christianity for far right ideology - "'Toxic Christianity': evangelical & conservative RC champions for Trump". People post articles which they believe are examples of this. If you disagree with an article it would be helpful if you would discuss it, rather than making sweeping generalisations.
As for the three questions you pose, they are indeed valid questions for a Christianity group. Why don't you start threads on them for discussion?
Just out of interest, does you username have any particular significance? I'm intrigued by "Toad Revolt".
39TheToadRevoltof84
>38 John5918:
I generalize these posts (articles) because it is true that they are indeed propaganda. Imagine a government, any government, and tell me that they're not abusing the population. It's an actually ridiculous topic to discuss because it's political and doesn't ask any real questions. It's all fake or conjured outrage.
It's not all topics that should be ignored; it's really this board and more notably the political use of this board that is the most appalling. Actual toxic Christianity is pretending to love, and usually with toxic sympathy, and conceding all of God's word and sacrificing principles for the world. It's not just erroring in judgment as we all do that is wrong but even worse it is ignoring God's wisdom for ease of life or self-aggrandizement. Both sides are guilty of it, but the left is definitely guilty of people-pleasing on a higher degree. It is why in the U.S., liberals are something like 50% more likely to be anxious or depressed or have another clinical diagnosis, and statistically give less to charity...They either don't give a rip about God or they have no faith in Him.
Not sure really, it's combination of Toad from Wind in the Willows and the Revolutionary War, a couple of my favorite things to read.
I generalize these posts (articles) because it is true that they are indeed propaganda. Imagine a government, any government, and tell me that they're not abusing the population. It's an actually ridiculous topic to discuss because it's political and doesn't ask any real questions. It's all fake or conjured outrage.
It's not all topics that should be ignored; it's really this board and more notably the political use of this board that is the most appalling. Actual toxic Christianity is pretending to love, and usually with toxic sympathy, and conceding all of God's word and sacrificing principles for the world. It's not just erroring in judgment as we all do that is wrong but even worse it is ignoring God's wisdom for ease of life or self-aggrandizement. Both sides are guilty of it, but the left is definitely guilty of people-pleasing on a higher degree. It is why in the U.S., liberals are something like 50% more likely to be anxious or depressed or have another clinical diagnosis, and statistically give less to charity...They either don't give a rip about God or they have no faith in Him.
Not sure really, it's combination of Toad from Wind in the Willows and the Revolutionary War, a couple of my favorite things to read.
42John5918
>41 brone:
No, to be honest I don't think we have been "in conversation". You post things, I respond to your post, and you then usually decline to engage further by answering my challenges and providing sources to support your opinion, and do resort to ad hominem attacks and sheltering behind terms like "gaslighting". I don't think I have every called you a racist, a homophobe, Islamophobic, or fascist, and my apologies if I have, as I believe in challenging a statement, behaviour or action (some of which are homophobic, racist, or Islamophobic) rather than attacking a person.
I don't now why you are calling our beloved Church right wing and Nazi. As the Holy Father has often said, the Church is not politically left or right, although we do believe in love, mercy, forgiveness, reconciliation, justice, peace and the dignity of the human person, which I don't think are generally associated with Nazism. Pray for me at mass. We don't get regular mass in our village chapel (although we had Ash Wednesday and the second Sunday of Lent), and it's pissing down with rain this weekend so I can't get to a mass twenty miles or so away as the roads are virtually impassable.
No, to be honest I don't think we have been "in conversation". You post things, I respond to your post, and you then usually decline to engage further by answering my challenges and providing sources to support your opinion, and do resort to ad hominem attacks and sheltering behind terms like "gaslighting". I don't think I have every called you a racist, a homophobe, Islamophobic, or fascist, and my apologies if I have, as I believe in challenging a statement, behaviour or action (some of which are homophobic, racist, or Islamophobic) rather than attacking a person.
I don't now why you are calling our beloved Church right wing and Nazi. As the Holy Father has often said, the Church is not politically left or right, although we do believe in love, mercy, forgiveness, reconciliation, justice, peace and the dignity of the human person, which I don't think are generally associated with Nazism. Pray for me at mass. We don't get regular mass in our village chapel (although we had Ash Wednesday and the second Sunday of Lent), and it's pissing down with rain this weekend so I can't get to a mass twenty miles or so away as the roads are virtually impassable.
43brone
>42 John5918: 20 miles of muddy roads no wonder you don't see the irony and dry humor in some of my comments stiff upper lip I suppose you know what though your right you do need prayers.+JMJ+
44John5918
Here's a non-toxic report by Christian bodies, namely the Center for the Study of Global Christianity, the (US) National Association of Evangelicals, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops and World Relief, entitled One Part of the Body: The Potential Impact of Deportations on American Christian Families.
The Apostle Paul describes the church of Jesus Christ as “one body” that is “not made up of one part but of many,” each of which is distinct from and yet interdependent upon the other parts (1 Cor. 12:13-14). Furthermore, we are called to both rejoice and to suffer together: “If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it” (1 Cor. 12:26)... In the United States, immigrants from various countries form integral parts of the Body of Christ. Most, of course, are lawfully
present, whether as naturalized citizens, Lawful Permanent Residents, resettled refugees or others with permanent legal status. But a significant share of the immigrants who are a part of our body are vulnerable to deportation, whether because they have no legal status or their legal protections could be withdrawn... our purpose with this report is to invite American Christians — within our congregations and within the halls of governmental power — to recognize that, if even a fraction of those vulnerable to deportation are actually deported, the ramifications are profound — for those individuals, of course, but also for their U.S.-citizen family members and, because when one part of the body suffers, every part suffers with it, for all Christians. We should also be clear that, as Christians, our concern is not exclusively for fellow Christians. We believe that all people, regardless of their religious beliefs, are made in the image of God with inherent dignity (Genesis 1:27, Genesis 9:6, James 3:9)... The findings are stark: Roughly one in 12 Christians in the United States are vulnerable to deportation or live with a family member who could be deported. Our prayer with this report is that American Christians will recognize that these proposed deportations — to whatever extent they ultimately become a reality — are not just a policy issue, but a dynamic that will impact us, disciples of Jesus who are knit together in unity under Christ. Love for one another, Jesus said, is a sign to those outside of the Church that we indeed are Christ’s disciples (John 13:35), but such love must go beyond vague expressions of sympathy that do not actively care for the tangible needs of our brothers and sisters (James 2:14-16)...
45TheToadRevoltof84
>44 John5918:
Toxic sympathy. If you're looking for the world to solve your problem by risking all, then you're not looking at Christ. The stats are undoubtedly a fabrication. If you're willing to break the law do you feel you deserve special treatment? What a false premise and if they came here for their children, shame on them for risking their children. Blessed are the meek. For those that remain humble will be with the Father. Shame on anyone trying to corrupt the law, just for cheap labor and votes. Just a desire to recapture slaves that they lost in 1865.
Toxic sympathy. If you're looking for the world to solve your problem by risking all, then you're not looking at Christ. The stats are undoubtedly a fabrication. If you're willing to break the law do you feel you deserve special treatment? What a false premise and if they came here for their children, shame on them for risking their children. Blessed are the meek. For those that remain humble will be with the Father. Shame on anyone trying to corrupt the law, just for cheap labor and votes. Just a desire to recapture slaves that they lost in 1865.
46John5918
>45 TheToadRevoltof84: The stats are undoubtedly a fabrication
No, the stats come from a respected and credible body. You are entitled to your right wing political policies, but here is a report representing a significant percentage of US Christian churches which is demonstrating that these policies cannot be justified by Christians.
No, the stats come from a respected and credible body. You are entitled to your right wing political policies, but here is a report representing a significant percentage of US Christian churches which is demonstrating that these policies cannot be justified by Christians.
47TheToadRevoltof84
>46 John5918:
The whole world has been putting an insurmountable debt onto future generations. Likely you have been part of this problem. That's because 'charity' has cost so much because nobody wants to give up theirs to help others... The stats are a fabrication and a broad assumption. The 'reliability' of the source depends on what you want them to be saying. A National group such as this is more likely to be corrupt than you think.
The problem is, you seem to believe just being in the U.S. means these illegal immigrants aren't being used and essentially becoming chattels. They are being tricked.
The whole world has been putting an insurmountable debt onto future generations. Likely you have been part of this problem. That's because 'charity' has cost so much because nobody wants to give up theirs to help others... The stats are a fabrication and a broad assumption. The 'reliability' of the source depends on what you want them to be saying. A National group such as this is more likely to be corrupt than you think.
The problem is, you seem to believe just being in the U.S. means these illegal immigrants aren't being used and essentially becoming chattels. They are being tricked.
48John5918
>47 TheToadRevoltof84:
You seem to know a lot about what I think. Oh, wait, you're making assumptions about what I think. You also again make unsupported allegations about these statistics and the group collecting them. And you don't even begin to address the actual issue, namely that representative Christian bodies in the USA are raising questions about whether certain policies are at odds with Christianity.
You seem to know a lot about what I think. Oh, wait, you're making assumptions about what I think. You also again make unsupported allegations about these statistics and the group collecting them. And you don't even begin to address the actual issue, namely that representative Christian bodies in the USA are raising questions about whether certain policies are at odds with Christianity.
49TheToadRevoltof84
>48 John5918:
Fair.
The statistics are unprovable and unsupported by facts. They are data points. They can't prove that the data is sufficient for the claim, let alone provide substantive data on these 10 plus million illegals, so I can't statistically argue an unsubstantiated claim.
We should lovingly provide for these illegals. But, the facts are we aren't, we are using them as slaves. We should not open the border so that they are exposed to the dangers.
Also, stealing money that doesn't actually exist is irresponsible. Our Government is in debt and doesn't actually have anything to give.
The morality in question here is more than just the slavery, but the slavery is bad enough on its own.
Fair.
The statistics are unprovable and unsupported by facts. They are data points. They can't prove that the data is sufficient for the claim, let alone provide substantive data on these 10 plus million illegals, so I can't statistically argue an unsubstantiated claim.
We should lovingly provide for these illegals. But, the facts are we aren't, we are using them as slaves. We should not open the border so that they are exposed to the dangers.
Also, stealing money that doesn't actually exist is irresponsible. Our Government is in debt and doesn't actually have anything to give.
The morality in question here is more than just the slavery, but the slavery is bad enough on its own.
50margd
The Catholic Church is breaking up with the U.S. government. Here’s why it matters
Kelsey Dallas | April 7, 2025
U.S. Catholic leaders are ending their church’s 50-year partnership with the federal government and seeking new ways to help refugees ...
https://www.deseret.com/faith/2025/04/07/catholic-church-ending-refugee-partners...
-----------------------------------------------------
The Government’s Decisions Have Forced USCCB to Reconsider How to Serve the Needs of Those Seeking Safe Harbor from Violence and Persecution, says Archbishop Broglio
US Conference of Catholic Bishops | 7 April 2025
... Today, the USCCB makes the heartbreaking announcement that we will not be renewing existing cooperative agreements with the federal government related to children’s services and refugee support. This difficult decision follows the suspension by the government of our cooperative agreements to resettle refugees. The decision to reduce these programs drastically forces us to reconsider the best way to serve the needs of our brothers and sisters seeking safe harbor from violence and persecution.
As a national effort, we simply cannot sustain the work on our own at current levels or in current form. As USCCB cooperative agreements for refugee resettlement and children’s programs end, we will work to identify alternative means of support for the people the federal government has already admitted to these programs. We ask your prayers for the many staff and refugees impacted.
... The Gospel’s call to do what we can for the least among us remains our guide. ...
https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/governments-decisions-have-forced-usccb-reconsid...
Kelsey Dallas | April 7, 2025
U.S. Catholic leaders are ending their church’s 50-year partnership with the federal government and seeking new ways to help refugees ...
https://www.deseret.com/faith/2025/04/07/catholic-church-ending-refugee-partners...
-----------------------------------------------------
The Government’s Decisions Have Forced USCCB to Reconsider How to Serve the Needs of Those Seeking Safe Harbor from Violence and Persecution, says Archbishop Broglio
US Conference of Catholic Bishops | 7 April 2025
... Today, the USCCB makes the heartbreaking announcement that we will not be renewing existing cooperative agreements with the federal government related to children’s services and refugee support. This difficult decision follows the suspension by the government of our cooperative agreements to resettle refugees. The decision to reduce these programs drastically forces us to reconsider the best way to serve the needs of our brothers and sisters seeking safe harbor from violence and persecution.
As a national effort, we simply cannot sustain the work on our own at current levels or in current form. As USCCB cooperative agreements for refugee resettlement and children’s programs end, we will work to identify alternative means of support for the people the federal government has already admitted to these programs. We ask your prayers for the many staff and refugees impacted.
... The Gospel’s call to do what we can for the least among us remains our guide. ...
https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/governments-decisions-have-forced-usccb-reconsid...
51margd
Trump’s pro-Palestinian activism crackdown closely mirrors a plan from the creators of Project 2025
Myah Ward and Irie Sentner | 04/06/2025
... Quietly unveiled last fall before the election, the Heritage Foundation’s Project Esther offered a roadmap for deploying anti-terror, hate speech and immigration laws to “exploit” the vulnerabilities of what it deems to be an antisemitic and “anti-American” pro-Palestinian movement. It’s a playbook the White House appears to be following as it pulls university funding and strips students and professors of legal status — an effort that has launched the administration’s aggressive immigration crackdown into a more controversial, politically dicier territory.
... according to a POLITICO analysis of the 33-page document, of the 47 points it lays out, the Trump administration and its allies in Congress have already moved in their rhetoric or policy to make at least 27 reality.
Those include calls to deport pro-Palestinian activists who are in the country legally, revoke the visas of international students and faculty who have supported pro-Palestinian causes, defund organizations that aid them and discredit the broader movement by branding its backers as supporters of Hamas.
... In the months after the Hamas attack, a cadre of right-leaning pro-Israel groups and think tanks convened the National Task Force to Combat Antisemitism as a counterforce to the Biden administration’s antisemitism strategy at the time. That task force, which counts no major Jewish organizations as members, is primarily composed of right-leaning Christian groups and Trump-affiliated think tanks, including the America First Policy Institute, which was founded to promote Trump’s agenda.
The Heritage Foundation, in partnership with the other groups, rolled out Project Esther on Oct. 7, 2024 — drawing little attention at a time when the president was distancing himself from Heritage’s better-known Project 2025, which had become a prominent Democratic talking point during the campaign...
https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/06/project-2025-project-esther-university-...
--------------------------------------------------------
Project Esther: A National Strategy to Combat Antisemitism
The Heritage Foundation | October 7, 2024
Summary
America’s virulently anti-Israel, anti-Zionist, and anti-American “pro-Palestinian movement” is part of a global Hamas Support Network (HSN) that is trying to compel the U.S. government to abandon its long-standing support for Israel. Supported by activists and funders dedicated to the destruction of capitalism and democracy, the HSN benefits from the support and training of America’s overseas enemies and seeks to achieve its goals by taking advantage of our open society, corrupting our education system, leveraging the American media, coopting the federal government, and relying on the American Jewish community’s complacency. The National Task Force to Combat Antisemitism intends to enlist all willing and able partners in a coordinated effort to combat the scourge of antisemitism in the United States.
https://www.heritage.org/progressivism/report/project-esther-national-strategy-c...
Myah Ward and Irie Sentner | 04/06/2025
... Quietly unveiled last fall before the election, the Heritage Foundation’s Project Esther offered a roadmap for deploying anti-terror, hate speech and immigration laws to “exploit” the vulnerabilities of what it deems to be an antisemitic and “anti-American” pro-Palestinian movement. It’s a playbook the White House appears to be following as it pulls university funding and strips students and professors of legal status — an effort that has launched the administration’s aggressive immigration crackdown into a more controversial, politically dicier territory.
... according to a POLITICO analysis of the 33-page document, of the 47 points it lays out, the Trump administration and its allies in Congress have already moved in their rhetoric or policy to make at least 27 reality.
Those include calls to deport pro-Palestinian activists who are in the country legally, revoke the visas of international students and faculty who have supported pro-Palestinian causes, defund organizations that aid them and discredit the broader movement by branding its backers as supporters of Hamas.
... In the months after the Hamas attack, a cadre of right-leaning pro-Israel groups and think tanks convened the National Task Force to Combat Antisemitism as a counterforce to the Biden administration’s antisemitism strategy at the time. That task force, which counts no major Jewish organizations as members, is primarily composed of right-leaning Christian groups and Trump-affiliated think tanks, including the America First Policy Institute, which was founded to promote Trump’s agenda.
The Heritage Foundation, in partnership with the other groups, rolled out Project Esther on Oct. 7, 2024 — drawing little attention at a time when the president was distancing himself from Heritage’s better-known Project 2025, which had become a prominent Democratic talking point during the campaign...
https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/06/project-2025-project-esther-university-...
--------------------------------------------------------
Project Esther: A National Strategy to Combat Antisemitism
The Heritage Foundation | October 7, 2024
Summary
America’s virulently anti-Israel, anti-Zionist, and anti-American “pro-Palestinian movement” is part of a global Hamas Support Network (HSN) that is trying to compel the U.S. government to abandon its long-standing support for Israel. Supported by activists and funders dedicated to the destruction of capitalism and democracy, the HSN benefits from the support and training of America’s overseas enemies and seeks to achieve its goals by taking advantage of our open society, corrupting our education system, leveraging the American media, coopting the federal government, and relying on the American Jewish community’s complacency. The National Task Force to Combat Antisemitism intends to enlist all willing and able partners in a coordinated effort to combat the scourge of antisemitism in the United States.
https://www.heritage.org/progressivism/report/project-esther-national-strategy-c...
52John5918
State department staff told to report colleagues for ‘anti-Christian bias’ (Guardian)
The state department is ordering staff to report colleagues for instances of “anti-Christian bias” during the Biden administration, part of Donald Trump’s aggressive push to reshape government policy on religious expression in his first months back in office. The internal cable, obtained by the Guardian, establishes a short seven-day window for employees to report perceived religious discrimination committed by state department officials, with particular emphasis on Christianity... The cable, first reported by Politico, points back to Trump’s February executive order aimed at ending “the anti-Christian weaponization of government,” and indicates that the department will offer preferential treatment for Christians... While the document acknowledges that discrimination based on any religion violates federal law, the repeated emphasis on “anti-Christian bias” highlights a key theme Trump was happy to hit while on the campaign trail. At rallies, Trump vowed to be a champion to conservative Christian causes...
53TheToadRevoltof84
>52 John5918:
You really should read something that isn't funded by stolen money.
https://www.dailysignal.com/2025/02/10/left-unwittingly-proves-trumps-point-need...
This is probably a decent response to your post.
You really should read something that isn't funded by stolen money.
https://www.dailysignal.com/2025/02/10/left-unwittingly-proves-trumps-point-need...
This is probably a decent response to your post.
54John5918
>53 TheToadRevoltof84:
Well, to be honest that opinion piece by someone promoting his new book certainly doesn't seem like much of a response. Christianity is the dominant culture in many western countries, and as with many dominant identity groups (including white people, men, straight people, etc) any attempt to redress the balance can make them feel as if they are being persecuted. I've seen and experienced religious persecution in a theocratic military dictatorship, and believe me the perceived inconveniences felt by some US Christians are barely on the same spectrum.
But even if Christians are being subjected to "Anti-Christian Bias", I think of Matthew 5: 11-12, "Blessed are you when people abuse you and persecute you and speak all kinds of calumny against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven; this is how they persecuted the prophets before you". Arguably one of the worst things that ever happened to the Christian Church was when it became the state religion of the Roman Empire, with all the pomp and privilege which that implied, and it has remained the de facto state religion of most modern western nations even when they have clear laws (and in the case of the USA, a constitution) which declare that there is no state religion.
Well, to be honest that opinion piece by someone promoting his new book certainly doesn't seem like much of a response. Christianity is the dominant culture in many western countries, and as with many dominant identity groups (including white people, men, straight people, etc) any attempt to redress the balance can make them feel as if they are being persecuted. I've seen and experienced religious persecution in a theocratic military dictatorship, and believe me the perceived inconveniences felt by some US Christians are barely on the same spectrum.
But even if Christians are being subjected to "Anti-Christian Bias", I think of Matthew 5: 11-12, "Blessed are you when people abuse you and persecute you and speak all kinds of calumny against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven; this is how they persecuted the prophets before you". Arguably one of the worst things that ever happened to the Christian Church was when it became the state religion of the Roman Empire, with all the pomp and privilege which that implied, and it has remained the de facto state religion of most modern western nations even when they have clear laws (and in the case of the USA, a constitution) which declare that there is no state religion.
55TheToadRevoltof84
>54 John5918:
There is bias against Christians and it's not the imaginary stuff that the fake outrage crowd creates in your 'news'.
You're not completely wrong, but imagine saying that about any other religion. And, imagine how silly that sounds to the secular Christians of the US. Christianity is the only religion that if actually practiced to its extreme, would cure the world of nearly everything.
There is bias against Christians and it's not the imaginary stuff that the fake outrage crowd creates in your 'news'.
You're not completely wrong, but imagine saying that about any other religion. And, imagine how silly that sounds to the secular Christians of the US. Christianity is the only religion that if actually practiced to its extreme, would cure the world of nearly everything.
56John5918
>55 TheToadRevoltof84: Christianity is the only religion that if actually practiced to its extreme, would cure the world of nearly everything
Up to a point I agree with you there, although I would prefer to say Christian values rather than the Christian religion. The Catholic Church, which is the body within which I practice my Christianity, has gathered a collection of teachings from the bible and two thousand years of Chrstian tradition under the heading Catholic Social Teaching. It includes such themes as the life and dignity of the human person; rights and responsibilities; subsidiarity and participation; preferential option for the poor and vulnerable; the dignity of work and the rights of workers; solidarity and the common good; and care for God’s creation. Peacebuilding, nonviolence, justice, good governance, democracy and human rights are found within these headings. Many of the world's ills could indeed be cured by these values.
But Christianity is not a political ideology, and whenever it has gained political power the results have unfortunately not led to curing the world of nearly everything; quite the opposite. Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire in the 4th century CE, and for many centuries dominated governance in Europe, and then in many of the colonies, particularly in South America. Theocracy is not the answer. Rather each one of us Christians is called personally and collectively to practice our faith "to its extreme" within whatever political dispensation we find ourselves, and to challenge nonviolently aspects of political life which do not match our values.
Up to a point I agree with you there, although I would prefer to say Christian values rather than the Christian religion. The Catholic Church, which is the body within which I practice my Christianity, has gathered a collection of teachings from the bible and two thousand years of Chrstian tradition under the heading Catholic Social Teaching. It includes such themes as the life and dignity of the human person; rights and responsibilities; subsidiarity and participation; preferential option for the poor and vulnerable; the dignity of work and the rights of workers; solidarity and the common good; and care for God’s creation. Peacebuilding, nonviolence, justice, good governance, democracy and human rights are found within these headings. Many of the world's ills could indeed be cured by these values.
But Christianity is not a political ideology, and whenever it has gained political power the results have unfortunately not led to curing the world of nearly everything; quite the opposite. Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire in the 4th century CE, and for many centuries dominated governance in Europe, and then in many of the colonies, particularly in South America. Theocracy is not the answer. Rather each one of us Christians is called personally and collectively to practice our faith "to its extreme" within whatever political dispensation we find ourselves, and to challenge nonviolently aspects of political life which do not match our values.
57John5918
On "anti-Christian bias", I was struck by this short scripture passage in today's Morning Prayer of the Divine Office:
"God has opened my ear and I have not resisted, I have not turned away. I have offered my back to those who struck me, my cheeks to those who plucked my beard; I have not turned my face away from insult and spitting. God comes to my help, this is why insult has not touched me, this is why I have set my face like flint and know that I shall not be put to shame" (Isaiah 50:5-7).
"God has opened my ear and I have not resisted, I have not turned away. I have offered my back to those who struck me, my cheeks to those who plucked my beard; I have not turned my face away from insult and spitting. God comes to my help, this is why insult has not touched me, this is why I have set my face like flint and know that I shall not be put to shame" (Isaiah 50:5-7).
58margd
Changing the world demands changing direction, pope writes for Way of Cross
Carol Glatz | April 18, 2025
In his Good Friday meditations that were read at Rome’s Colosseum, Pope Francis warned of a world driven by selfishness and exclusion, calling it a “construction site of hell.” His reflections and prayers emphasized Jesus’ path of humility and love for others.
"... Today's builders of Babel tell us that there is no room for losers, and that those who fall along the way are losers. Theirs is the construction site of hell," {Francis} wrote. "God's economy, on the other hand, does not kill, discard or crush. It is lowly, faithful to the earth ..."
https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/changing-world-demands-changing-direction-pope-w...
Carol Glatz | April 18, 2025
In his Good Friday meditations that were read at Rome’s Colosseum, Pope Francis warned of a world driven by selfishness and exclusion, calling it a “construction site of hell.” His reflections and prayers emphasized Jesus’ path of humility and love for others.
"... Today's builders of Babel tell us that there is no room for losers, and that those who fall along the way are losers. Theirs is the construction site of hell," {Francis} wrote. "God's economy, on the other hand, does not kill, discard or crush. It is lowly, faithful to the earth ..."
https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/changing-world-demands-changing-direction-pope-w...
59margd
‘Maga Catholics’ are gaining ground in the US. Now their sight is set on the Vatican
J Oliver Conroy | Mon 28 Apr 2025
Conservative US Catholics like Steve Bannon look to win ‘war that lasts decades’ with pope antithetical to Francis ...
... For conservative, traditionalist or self-described “orthodox” Catholics, fresh from 12 uneasy years under Francis, this interregnum will be the last chance in a long time to try to reset a church that they believe has drifted too far left. To some, that means pushing for a church that clearly affirms polarizing but longtime Catholic teachings on sexuality, marriage and abortion. Others, many of them associated with the priorities of Donald Trump and his supporters, would go further, and press for a church that is explicitly, politically rightwing – or at least less hostile to the Maga movement’s stances on immigration, social welfare and the environment.
Steve Bannon, perhaps the most public and inflammatory voice of rightwing Catholic discontent, has said he intends to organize a “show of force of traditionalists” with confrontational “wall-to-wall” media coverage. Most politicking, however, will take the form of quieter wheeling and dealing ...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/apr/28/maga-catholics-vatican-pope-conc...
J Oliver Conroy | Mon 28 Apr 2025
Conservative US Catholics like Steve Bannon look to win ‘war that lasts decades’ with pope antithetical to Francis ...
... For conservative, traditionalist or self-described “orthodox” Catholics, fresh from 12 uneasy years under Francis, this interregnum will be the last chance in a long time to try to reset a church that they believe has drifted too far left. To some, that means pushing for a church that clearly affirms polarizing but longtime Catholic teachings on sexuality, marriage and abortion. Others, many of them associated with the priorities of Donald Trump and his supporters, would go further, and press for a church that is explicitly, politically rightwing – or at least less hostile to the Maga movement’s stances on immigration, social welfare and the environment.
Steve Bannon, perhaps the most public and inflammatory voice of rightwing Catholic discontent, has said he intends to organize a “show of force of traditionalists” with confrontational “wall-to-wall” media coverage. Most politicking, however, will take the form of quieter wheeling and dealing ...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/apr/28/maga-catholics-vatican-pope-conc...
60margd
Rev. William Barber arrested in Capitol Rotunda after praying against Republican-led budget
Jack Jenkins | April 28, 2025
...Prominent pastor and anti-poverty activist the Rev. William Barber {founder of the Center for Public Theology and Public Policy at Yale Divinity School, where he also teaches} and two others were arrested while praying in the U.S. Capitol Rotunda on Monday (April 28), an action he said would be part of a recurring series of demonstrations aimed at challenging the Republican-led budget bill.
The arrests occurred roughly 15 minutes after Barber, the Rev. Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove {Assistant Director for Partnerships and Fellowships at Yale University’s Center for Public Theology and Public Policy} and Steve Swayne, director of St. Francis Springs Prayer Center, started praying in the Rotunda as dozens of police stood nearby, some prepared with plastic handcuffs. The three took turns praying, lamenting potential budget cuts to social safety-net programs such as Medicaid ...
While arresting protesters at the Capitol is not unusual, the response to Barber’s prayer was unusually dramatic: After issuing verbal warnings, dozens of officers expelled everyone in the Rotunda — including credentialed press — and shut the doors, obscuring any view. Press and others were then instructed to leave the floor entirely...
https://religionnews.com/2025/04/28/william-barber-arrested-in-capitol-rotunda-a...
Jack Jenkins | April 28, 2025
...Prominent pastor and anti-poverty activist the Rev. William Barber {founder of the Center for Public Theology and Public Policy at Yale Divinity School, where he also teaches} and two others were arrested while praying in the U.S. Capitol Rotunda on Monday (April 28), an action he said would be part of a recurring series of demonstrations aimed at challenging the Republican-led budget bill.
The arrests occurred roughly 15 minutes after Barber, the Rev. Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove {Assistant Director for Partnerships and Fellowships at Yale University’s Center for Public Theology and Public Policy} and Steve Swayne, director of St. Francis Springs Prayer Center, started praying in the Rotunda as dozens of police stood nearby, some prepared with plastic handcuffs. The three took turns praying, lamenting potential budget cuts to social safety-net programs such as Medicaid ...
While arresting protesters at the Capitol is not unusual, the response to Barber’s prayer was unusually dramatic: After issuing verbal warnings, dozens of officers expelled everyone in the Rotunda — including credentialed press — and shut the doors, obscuring any view. Press and others were then instructed to leave the floor entirely...
https://religionnews.com/2025/04/28/william-barber-arrested-in-capitol-rotunda-a...
612wonderY
>60 margd: They were ashamed, we can hope.
63John5918
>62 brone:
I've never heard of Rev William Barber. Could you cite a link so we can have a conversation about whatever it is he has said and done which you disagree with? I very much doubt whether he or any other Christian is trying to "tear down" your nation, although I do know that many US Christians and indeed US people in general disagree with you and your current president on what the nation should look like. Being against "American Republicanism and Capitalism" is not the same as being against the nation. In a democracy different parties with different political agendas, policies and visions for the nation compete for votes. In 2024 your Republicans won with just under 50% of the popular vote, but the other 48 point something percent are not trying to tear down the nation; they are simply loyal Americans with a different political viewpoint. And let me patiently repeat once again that everyone who disagrees with you and President Trump is not automatically a Marxist.
I've never heard of Rev William Barber. Could you cite a link so we can have a conversation about whatever it is he has said and done which you disagree with? I very much doubt whether he or any other Christian is trying to "tear down" your nation, although I do know that many US Christians and indeed US people in general disagree with you and your current president on what the nation should look like. Being against "American Republicanism and Capitalism" is not the same as being against the nation. In a democracy different parties with different political agendas, policies and visions for the nation compete for votes. In 2024 your Republicans won with just under 50% of the popular vote, but the other 48 point something percent are not trying to tear down the nation; they are simply loyal Americans with a different political viewpoint. And let me patiently repeat once again that everyone who disagrees with you and President Trump is not automatically a Marxist.
64margd
>63 John5918: Rev Barber (Yale Divinity School) and friends were arrested while praying in Capitol Rotunda for restoration of funding for social safety net, e.g., Medicaid. (>60 margd:). The hundreds of people who "protested" there on Jan 6, 2021 were pardoned by President Trump.
66John5918
>65 brone:
That's an interesting alternative narrative. I had heard that a handful of courageous and patriotic police officers did their duty in trying to defend a government building, the United States Capitol, no less, against a mob, many of them armed, who were storming the building, looting and vandalising it, threatening the lives of police and legislators, and explicitly calling for the murder of the vice-president. I hardly think it's "cowardly" for a police officer to stand their ground and do their duty in the face of that sort of violent assault.
That's an interesting alternative narrative. I had heard that a handful of courageous and patriotic police officers did their duty in trying to defend a government building, the United States Capitol, no less, against a mob, many of them armed, who were storming the building, looting and vandalising it, threatening the lives of police and legislators, and explicitly calling for the murder of the vice-president. I hardly think it's "cowardly" for a police officer to stand their ground and do their duty in the face of that sort of violent assault.
67TheToadRevoltof84
I think our more progressive church goers/potential believers should consider reading Toxic Empathy by Allie Beth Stuckey.
https://www.christianbook.com/toxic-empathy-left-exploits-christian-compassion/9...
https://www.christianbook.com/toxic-empathy-left-exploits-christian-compassion/9...
68TheToadRevoltof84
>66 John5918:
You hear a lot of things that are patently false and are hoaxes of the worst magnitude. There's a lot that happened that day that is debated by even conservatives, but our dear overlords won't tell the whole truth. Amazingly, the J-6 commission's work was so important they burned it all before anyone could review it.
https://www.theblaze.com/news/new-video-covers-19-minutes-in-the-jan-6-life-and-...
A cloud hangs over the U.S. Department of Justice’s 2021 decision not to charge Byrd in the fatal shooting, as new questions swirl about Byrd's long disciplinary history. The District of Columbia Office of the Chief Medical Examiner ruled the death a homicide. She was one of four Trump supporters to die at the Capitol on Jan. 6.
The Judicial Watch video uses footage from at least a dozen sources, about half of whom were witnesses who shot cellphone video. The rest came from Capitol Police CCTV cameras, Blaze News’ Steve Baker, and at least one unnamed FBI informant or “confidential human source.”
“That was pretty awful, huh?” Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton said at the end of the new video. “It was disturbing. Ashli Babbitt shouldn’t have been killed. You can see frankly they could have moved her a little more quickly than they did. It’s going to be resolved in our lawsuit. The lawsuit is ongoing."
“We are seeking to — and both parties are operating in good faith — to partially or completely resolve the litigation. So I’m quite hopeful that that does happen. I can’t imagine President Trump is going to want anything other than to resolve this litigation.”
One of the most striking things in the video is how Byrd crept out of a hidden position inside the Speaker’s Lobby in order to take the shot. Two protesters filming in one corner of the hallway spotted Byrd’s Glock 22 service weapon through the glass side window. They shouted, “He’s got a gun!” but their cries were not heard by Babbitt, feet away, as she jumped up into a broken window — only to be shot.
https://www.theblaze.com/news/settlement-in-principle-reached-in-30-million-ashl...
https://www.theblaze.com/shows/blazetv-specials/heres-the-truth-about-january-6
https://www.dailysignal.com/2025/03/03/how-bidens-pardons-could-mean-congress-le...
https://www.dailysignal.com/2024/12/12/26-fbi-informants-were-at-capitol-on-jan-...
https://www.dailysignal.com/2024/01/08/lawmaker-estimates-fbi-had-200-undercover...
You hear a lot of things that are patently false and are hoaxes of the worst magnitude. There's a lot that happened that day that is debated by even conservatives, but our dear overlords won't tell the whole truth. Amazingly, the J-6 commission's work was so important they burned it all before anyone could review it.
https://www.theblaze.com/news/new-video-covers-19-minutes-in-the-jan-6-life-and-...
A cloud hangs over the U.S. Department of Justice’s 2021 decision not to charge Byrd in the fatal shooting, as new questions swirl about Byrd's long disciplinary history. The District of Columbia Office of the Chief Medical Examiner ruled the death a homicide. She was one of four Trump supporters to die at the Capitol on Jan. 6.
The Judicial Watch video uses footage from at least a dozen sources, about half of whom were witnesses who shot cellphone video. The rest came from Capitol Police CCTV cameras, Blaze News’ Steve Baker, and at least one unnamed FBI informant or “confidential human source.”
“That was pretty awful, huh?” Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton said at the end of the new video. “It was disturbing. Ashli Babbitt shouldn’t have been killed. You can see frankly they could have moved her a little more quickly than they did. It’s going to be resolved in our lawsuit. The lawsuit is ongoing."
“We are seeking to — and both parties are operating in good faith — to partially or completely resolve the litigation. So I’m quite hopeful that that does happen. I can’t imagine President Trump is going to want anything other than to resolve this litigation.”
One of the most striking things in the video is how Byrd crept out of a hidden position inside the Speaker’s Lobby in order to take the shot. Two protesters filming in one corner of the hallway spotted Byrd’s Glock 22 service weapon through the glass side window. They shouted, “He’s got a gun!” but their cries were not heard by Babbitt, feet away, as she jumped up into a broken window — only to be shot.
https://www.theblaze.com/news/settlement-in-principle-reached-in-30-million-ashl...
https://www.theblaze.com/shows/blazetv-specials/heres-the-truth-about-january-6
https://www.dailysignal.com/2025/03/03/how-bidens-pardons-could-mean-congress-le...
https://www.dailysignal.com/2024/12/12/26-fbi-informants-were-at-capitol-on-jan-...
https://www.dailysignal.com/2024/01/08/lawmaker-estimates-fbi-had-200-undercover...
69John5918
>68 TheToadRevoltof84:
I find it rather bizarre that in a nation where many people support the right of civilians to own small arms and light weapons and characterise as self-defence the shooting and killing using military grade weapons of home invaders who try break in to their home violently through a door or window, and indeed the shooting and killing of an unarmed person on the street if one merely feels threatened by that person, yet many of those same people try to demonise a uniformed police officer who used his pistol against an armed mob who were violently breaking in to and invading the building he was tasked with defending, openly committing acts of looting and vandalism, and explicitly threatening to murder at least one of the occupants of the building, the nation's vice president, no less.
I find it rather bizarre that in a nation where many people support the right of civilians to own small arms and light weapons and characterise as self-defence the shooting and killing using military grade weapons of home invaders who try break in to their home violently through a door or window, and indeed the shooting and killing of an unarmed person on the street if one merely feels threatened by that person, yet many of those same people try to demonise a uniformed police officer who used his pistol against an armed mob who were violently breaking in to and invading the building he was tasked with defending, openly committing acts of looting and vandalism, and explicitly threatening to murder at least one of the occupants of the building, the nation's vice president, no less.
70TheToadRevoltof84
>69 John5918:
You should feel that way, except most of us do not support the crime in the streets that occur in Progressive cities and the officer that murdered Ashli Babbitt did so unnecessarily and cowardly.
You should review the overwhelming evidence that goes against the fake outrage narrative regarding J6. The officers behaved cowardly, shamefully and lied. There are some articles and videos above to get you started, including a good amount of footage released by the Blaze when the government released the whole video. Amazingly the J6 attack committee shredded all their documents so that we can't review their "honest efforts" so we don't know how they arrived at their opinions. Weird, huh?
You should feel that way, except most of us do not support the crime in the streets that occur in Progressive cities and the officer that murdered Ashli Babbitt did so unnecessarily and cowardly.
You should review the overwhelming evidence that goes against the fake outrage narrative regarding J6. The officers behaved cowardly, shamefully and lied. There are some articles and videos above to get you started, including a good amount of footage released by the Blaze when the government released the whole video. Amazingly the J6 attack committee shredded all their documents so that we can't review their "honest efforts" so we don't know how they arrived at their opinions. Weird, huh?
71John5918
>70 TheToadRevoltof84:
Well it seems to me that if you violently break into any home in the USA you know you are at risk of being shot. So if you are violently breaking into the US Capitol, a very high security building at the best of times, as part of an armed mob explicitly threatening to murder the vice president, it should hardly come as a surprise to anyone that police officers responded with gun fire.
Well it seems to me that if you violently break into any home in the USA you know you are at risk of being shot. So if you are violently breaking into the US Capitol, a very high security building at the best of times, as part of an armed mob explicitly threatening to murder the vice president, it should hardly come as a surprise to anyone that police officers responded with gun fire.
72TheToadRevoltof84
>71 John5918:
If you watch the videos, they were ushered in, essentially invited! There were some that broke in, strangely nobody knows who they were (maybe some of those agents that we now know exist, see links above) but they got the grandmas behind bars!
You really should read about it, the narrative of the fake outrage crowd was overblown to say the least. There certainly were bad actors, but this was primarily an intentional setup.
If you watch the videos, they were ushered in, essentially invited! There were some that broke in, strangely nobody knows who they were (maybe some of those agents that we now know exist, see links above) but they got the grandmas behind bars!
You really should read about it, the narrative of the fake outrage crowd was overblown to say the least. There certainly were bad actors, but this was primarily an intentional setup.
73John5918
>72 TheToadRevoltof84: You really should read about it
That's really quite condescending, you know, as if right wingers and conspiracy theorists are the only ones who read anything, or who look critically at a wide range of different sources before forming opinions.
That's really quite condescending, you know, as if right wingers and conspiracy theorists are the only ones who read anything, or who look critically at a wide range of different sources before forming opinions.
74TheToadRevoltof84
>73 John5918:
Take it easy John. You probably haven't invested much time on any of the new info that was released. You got the painted picture and hung it on the wall. I'm offering you new information that was released when the painters left the commission. We hired new people and they released the actual footage. You think that's bad, you should hear about the supposed bomb planting at the DNC during the same timeframe.
Hoaxers had to shred their commission's work and you're not even interested in why?
Take it easy John. You probably haven't invested much time on any of the new info that was released. You got the painted picture and hung it on the wall. I'm offering you new information that was released when the painters left the commission. We hired new people and they released the actual footage. You think that's bad, you should hear about the supposed bomb planting at the DNC during the same timeframe.
Hoaxers had to shred their commission's work and you're not even interested in why?
75John5918
>74 TheToadRevoltof84:
Same ploy. You're the only one who has invested much time on these issues and who has tried to stay up to date? You're the only one who sees new information? You're the onle one who is even interested in finding the truth on various issues? And your interpretation of both the old and the new information is the only one which is valid?
Same ploy. You're the only one who has invested much time on these issues and who has tried to stay up to date? You're the only one who sees new information? You're the onle one who is even interested in finding the truth on various issues? And your interpretation of both the old and the new information is the only one which is valid?
76TheToadRevoltof84
>75 John5918:
Just factually, this video was not released by the prior administration. They hid facts and shredded paper on the way out. I actually don't care if you look at it, this is a Christian group, your victim card is expired here.
Just factually, this video was not released by the prior administration. They hid facts and shredded paper on the way out. I actually don't care if you look at it, this is a Christian group, your victim card is expired here.
78TheToadRevoltof84
>77 John5918:
It's the leverage you are trying to use in discussing this matter to elevate your moral standing by pointing to "my condescension".
It's the leverage you are trying to use in discussing this matter to elevate your moral standing by pointing to "my condescension".
79John5918
>78 TheToadRevoltof84:
Ah, thanks for that clarification. It passed me by completely, as I had never associated your condescension with being a victim (I'm not one) nor with elevating my moral standing. I simply feel that we would have a better conversation if you didn't assume that everybody who disagrees with you has not bothered to read widely on the subject, and that their disagreement must be a result of ignorance rather than having looked at a wide range of sources and come to a different conclusion than you have. My apologies if I misrepresent you, but that's how I interpreted your words and tone.
Ah, thanks for that clarification. It passed me by completely, as I had never associated your condescension with being a victim (I'm not one) nor with elevating my moral standing. I simply feel that we would have a better conversation if you didn't assume that everybody who disagrees with you has not bothered to read widely on the subject, and that their disagreement must be a result of ignorance rather than having looked at a wide range of sources and come to a different conclusion than you have. My apologies if I misrepresent you, but that's how I interpreted your words and tone.
80TheToadRevoltof84
>79 John5918:
I'm sorry too, John. If you read that article >68 TheToadRevoltof84: and watch the evidence and decide that Ashli Babbitt deserved to die, then I will accept that there's really no need to discuss this further.
Some interesting bits in the one article:
https://www.theblaze.com/news/new-video-covers-19-minutes-in-the-jan-6-life-and-...
Among the biggest issues in the Babbitt case, the U.S. Department of Justice’s use-of-force report has long drawn criticism from Judicial Watch and a prominent use-of-force expert consulted by Blaze News.
Released by Judicial Watch in June 2022 as part of a lawsuit against the DOJ, the report said there was “insufficient evidence” to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Byrd “willfully” used more force than necessary. The report said the DOJ conducted a “thorough review of the facts and circumstances in this case,” yet the document has close to a dozen major factual errors.
The report also did not rely on what use-of-force experts call the “gold standard” for judging police use of deadly force.
“In order for lethal force to be authorized, the officer has to be able to articulate that he or she was in fear of losing his life, was about to be killed or grievously injured,” said Stan Kephart, an Arizona-based policing expert who analyzed the shooting for “The Real Story of Jan. 6,” a 2022 documentary by the Epoch Times. “There is nothing I saw in that Speaker’s Lobby film that would indicate that was possible or probable from what unfolded.”
Kephart said the shooting should have been evaluated using a litmus test from the 1989 U.S. Supreme Court case Graham v. Connor to determine whether force was ever needed and appropriate in the situation, the extent of the injury, and “whether the force was applied in a good-faith manner to maintain and restore discipline, or maliciously and sadistically.”
Kephart told Blaze News that a new investigation of Byrd’s use of force should be a high priority for the Trump DOJ.
It was “a total miscarriage of justice” to use the wrong legal framework for judging whether Byrd used excessive force in the shooting, Kephart said. The term “willfully” is not part of the standard. Because that legal analysis underpins the conclusions in the DOJ report, Kephart said, “It’s the first thing that should be re-examined.”
Aaron Babbitt, Ashli's widower, has criticized the DOJ report for bias and errors, including the assertion that his wife was “an active participant in a ‘mob’ that had just illegally entered the Capitol building and then broke out the glass doors and removed barricades to forcefully gain entry into the Speaker’s Lobby.”
Video showed that Babbitt tried to stop the rioting that broke out in the hallway, shouting at three Capitol Police officers, “Call f**king help!” She put a stop to the violence when she grabbed rioter Zachary Alam and punched him in the nose.
An officer of the House Sergeant at Arms wrongfully claimed in the report that Babbitt took part in breaking the glass at the Speaker’s Lobby entrance.
“There’s zero evidence from three different angles that Ashli broke any glass,” Aaron Babbitt said in 2022. “She was behind the bad actors the whole time.”
In addition to apparent factual errors in the DOJ report, there are also issues of crime-scene contamination that complicate the case.
Capitol Police SWAT Officer Michael Brown broke out glass and climbed through the window into the Speaker’s Lobby after the shooting, video shows. Crime scene photos clearly indicate that the makeshift barrier of furniture piled up inside the entrance was altered after the shooting, with more furniture stacked on it to make the barricade higher than it was when Byrd fired his shot.
Blaze News reached out to the new U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, Edward R. Martin Jr., but did not receive a reply by publication time. The FBI and U.S. Capitol Police have repeatedly declined to comment on Byrd.
Focus on Byrd’s history
Byrd’s history across three decades of Capitol Police work came under congressional scrutiny in late 2024 in a report from U.S. Rep. Barry Loudermilk (R-Ga.) to Capitol Police Chief J. Thomas Manger. Records uncovered by the Committee on House Administration Subcommittee on Oversight said in 2004, Byrd was accused of firing his service weapon into a fleeing vehicle in his Maryland neighborhood, with his neighbor in the line of fire.
“The Subcommittee is aware that the USCP recently promoted Michael Byrd from lieutenant to captain,” Loudermilk wrote. “I have concerns about this decision given Byrd’s lengthy disciplinary history and the apparent political influence of internal operational decisions related to Byrd following January 6, 2021.”
Loudermilk said Byrd has received favorable treatment compared to other Capitol Police officers who worked on Jan. 6. He was awarded an unrestricted $36,000 retention bonus in August 2021. At around the same time, other officers — including those injured on Jan. 6 — were given $3,000 retention bonuses. In June 2022, officers were offered an $8,000 retention bonus. The Loudermilk letter said it was not clear whether Byrd also received the two other bonuses.
Byrd was also given $21,000 in security upgrades at his Maryland home. House Democrats worked with Capitol Police general counsel Tad DiBiase to find ways to help Byrd financially in the months after he shot and killed Babbitt, Loudermilk wrote. Capitol Police helped to establish a GoFundMe campaign that raised more than $164,000 for Byrd.
Congressional investigators uncovered a 2001 incident in which Byrd was accused of abandoning his post in the Speaker’s Office for a card game in a nearby cloakroom, then lying about it to Internal Affairs Division investigators.
Capitol Police instructed Byrd not to sit for a fitness-for-duty evaluation following Jan. 6, “concerned that Byrd may fail” and if he did, “he would not be permitted to carry his service weapon,” the Loudermilk letter said.
Shortly after shooting Babbitt at 2:44 p.m. on Jan. 6, Byrd made a false broadcast on Capitol Police radio claiming that he was taking gunfire and was preparing to return fire. The false assertion was never corrected on the air, leaving SWAT officers streaming into the Capitol to wonder if the scene was secure or if a shooter was on the loose in the Capitol.
Loudermilk said records were missing for three other Byrd disciplinary incidents. “This is disappointing, as the inability to locate these documents hinders the subcommittee from fulfilling its responsibility to conduct comprehensive oversight over the USCP,” Loudermilk wrote.
I'm sorry too, John. If you read that article >68 TheToadRevoltof84: and watch the evidence and decide that Ashli Babbitt deserved to die, then I will accept that there's really no need to discuss this further.
Some interesting bits in the one article:
https://www.theblaze.com/news/new-video-covers-19-minutes-in-the-jan-6-life-and-...
Among the biggest issues in the Babbitt case, the U.S. Department of Justice’s use-of-force report has long drawn criticism from Judicial Watch and a prominent use-of-force expert consulted by Blaze News.
Released by Judicial Watch in June 2022 as part of a lawsuit against the DOJ, the report said there was “insufficient evidence” to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Byrd “willfully” used more force than necessary. The report said the DOJ conducted a “thorough review of the facts and circumstances in this case,” yet the document has close to a dozen major factual errors.
The report also did not rely on what use-of-force experts call the “gold standard” for judging police use of deadly force.
“In order for lethal force to be authorized, the officer has to be able to articulate that he or she was in fear of losing his life, was about to be killed or grievously injured,” said Stan Kephart, an Arizona-based policing expert who analyzed the shooting for “The Real Story of Jan. 6,” a 2022 documentary by the Epoch Times. “There is nothing I saw in that Speaker’s Lobby film that would indicate that was possible or probable from what unfolded.”
Kephart said the shooting should have been evaluated using a litmus test from the 1989 U.S. Supreme Court case Graham v. Connor to determine whether force was ever needed and appropriate in the situation, the extent of the injury, and “whether the force was applied in a good-faith manner to maintain and restore discipline, or maliciously and sadistically.”
Kephart told Blaze News that a new investigation of Byrd’s use of force should be a high priority for the Trump DOJ.
It was “a total miscarriage of justice” to use the wrong legal framework for judging whether Byrd used excessive force in the shooting, Kephart said. The term “willfully” is not part of the standard. Because that legal analysis underpins the conclusions in the DOJ report, Kephart said, “It’s the first thing that should be re-examined.”
Aaron Babbitt, Ashli's widower, has criticized the DOJ report for bias and errors, including the assertion that his wife was “an active participant in a ‘mob’ that had just illegally entered the Capitol building and then broke out the glass doors and removed barricades to forcefully gain entry into the Speaker’s Lobby.”
Video showed that Babbitt tried to stop the rioting that broke out in the hallway, shouting at three Capitol Police officers, “Call f**king help!” She put a stop to the violence when she grabbed rioter Zachary Alam and punched him in the nose.
An officer of the House Sergeant at Arms wrongfully claimed in the report that Babbitt took part in breaking the glass at the Speaker’s Lobby entrance.
“There’s zero evidence from three different angles that Ashli broke any glass,” Aaron Babbitt said in 2022. “She was behind the bad actors the whole time.”
In addition to apparent factual errors in the DOJ report, there are also issues of crime-scene contamination that complicate the case.
Capitol Police SWAT Officer Michael Brown broke out glass and climbed through the window into the Speaker’s Lobby after the shooting, video shows. Crime scene photos clearly indicate that the makeshift barrier of furniture piled up inside the entrance was altered after the shooting, with more furniture stacked on it to make the barricade higher than it was when Byrd fired his shot.
Blaze News reached out to the new U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, Edward R. Martin Jr., but did not receive a reply by publication time. The FBI and U.S. Capitol Police have repeatedly declined to comment on Byrd.
Focus on Byrd’s history
Byrd’s history across three decades of Capitol Police work came under congressional scrutiny in late 2024 in a report from U.S. Rep. Barry Loudermilk (R-Ga.) to Capitol Police Chief J. Thomas Manger. Records uncovered by the Committee on House Administration Subcommittee on Oversight said in 2004, Byrd was accused of firing his service weapon into a fleeing vehicle in his Maryland neighborhood, with his neighbor in the line of fire.
“The Subcommittee is aware that the USCP recently promoted Michael Byrd from lieutenant to captain,” Loudermilk wrote. “I have concerns about this decision given Byrd’s lengthy disciplinary history and the apparent political influence of internal operational decisions related to Byrd following January 6, 2021.”
Loudermilk said Byrd has received favorable treatment compared to other Capitol Police officers who worked on Jan. 6. He was awarded an unrestricted $36,000 retention bonus in August 2021. At around the same time, other officers — including those injured on Jan. 6 — were given $3,000 retention bonuses. In June 2022, officers were offered an $8,000 retention bonus. The Loudermilk letter said it was not clear whether Byrd also received the two other bonuses.
Byrd was also given $21,000 in security upgrades at his Maryland home. House Democrats worked with Capitol Police general counsel Tad DiBiase to find ways to help Byrd financially in the months after he shot and killed Babbitt, Loudermilk wrote. Capitol Police helped to establish a GoFundMe campaign that raised more than $164,000 for Byrd.
Congressional investigators uncovered a 2001 incident in which Byrd was accused of abandoning his post in the Speaker’s Office for a card game in a nearby cloakroom, then lying about it to Internal Affairs Division investigators.
Capitol Police instructed Byrd not to sit for a fitness-for-duty evaluation following Jan. 6, “concerned that Byrd may fail” and if he did, “he would not be permitted to carry his service weapon,” the Loudermilk letter said.
Shortly after shooting Babbitt at 2:44 p.m. on Jan. 6, Byrd made a false broadcast on Capitol Police radio claiming that he was taking gunfire and was preparing to return fire. The false assertion was never corrected on the air, leaving SWAT officers streaming into the Capitol to wonder if the scene was secure or if a shooter was on the loose in the Capitol.
Loudermilk said records were missing for three other Byrd disciplinary incidents. “This is disappointing, as the inability to locate these documents hinders the subcommittee from fulfilling its responsibility to conduct comprehensive oversight over the USCP,” Loudermilk wrote.
81John5918
>80 TheToadRevoltof84: If you read that article >68 TheToadRevoltof84: TheToadRevoltof84: and watch the evidence and decide that Ashli Babbitt deserved to die, then I will accept that there's really no need to discuss this further.
I had already done so, and already decided that there is no need to discuss this further. Once again we look at the same situation from our differing worldviews and perspectives and we come to different conclusions. Can we also assume that neither of us does so out of ignorance?
But nobody deserves to die violently, whatever their actions and whatever mistakes might have been made. It's always a tragedy, and my sympathies are with her family and friends, and also with police officers, soldiers, state executioners and others who believe they are doing their duty and have to live with the death of another human being on their conscience.
I had already done so, and already decided that there is no need to discuss this further. Once again we look at the same situation from our differing worldviews and perspectives and we come to different conclusions. Can we also assume that neither of us does so out of ignorance?
But nobody deserves to die violently, whatever their actions and whatever mistakes might have been made. It's always a tragedy, and my sympathies are with her family and friends, and also with police officers, soldiers, state executioners and others who believe they are doing their duty and have to live with the death of another human being on their conscience.
82TheToadRevoltof84
>81 John5918:
Okay. There were an awful lot of cops behind her, she wasn't harming any of them. The officer hiding around the corner is/was a coward who's life was not threatened. Ashli's husband will win the case.
But surely she should have been shot. I guess, I can at least count on this being apolitical and you would agree that violent rioters everywhere should be shot? Which is strange, because I don't, I believe they should be arrested.
Okay. There were an awful lot of cops behind her, she wasn't harming any of them. The officer hiding around the corner is/was a coward who's life was not threatened. Ashli's husband will win the case.
But surely she should have been shot. I guess, I can at least count on this being apolitical and you would agree that violent rioters everywhere should be shot? Which is strange, because I don't, I believe they should be arrested.
83John5918
>82 TheToadRevoltof84:
I don't believe anybody should be shot. I'm against violence. But I understand that in the USA you're allowed to shoot someone who is illegally entering your property. In some states I believe you're also allowed to shoot someone in the street if you just feel threatened by them.
But I also don't believe that protests should be violent. Violence breeds more violence.
I don't believe anybody should be shot. I'm against violence. But I understand that in the USA you're allowed to shoot someone who is illegally entering your property. In some states I believe you're also allowed to shoot someone in the street if you just feel threatened by them.
But I also don't believe that protests should be violent. Violence breeds more violence.
84TheToadRevoltof84
>83 John5918:
Your response will be judged accordingly if you shoot someone. The threat would need to be justified and in more cases than not you're still liable.
Your response will be judged accordingly if you shoot someone. The threat would need to be justified and in more cases than not you're still liable.
85margd
US conservative Catholics wine and dine cardinals ahead of conclave to elect the pope
Brian Fraga | 5 May 2025
... Novemdiales — the traditional nine-day mourning period that follows the death of a pope — coincided with "America Week," an annual American-led fundraising period for Catholic causes in the Eternal City featuring soirees, receptions and dinner parties at upscale hotels, palaces and venerable church settings.
American VIPs from groups such as the Papal Foundation are in Rome for their yearly post-Easter "pilgrimage" where they deliver an annual financial pledge to the Vatican. Among them are representatives from the Napa Institute, an organization that since its founding in 2010 has become a driving force to lobby for the U.S. Catholic Church to adhere to conservative values ...
... one anonymous Papal Foundation VIP said, "This room could raise a billion to help the church. So long as we have the right pope."
https://www.ncronline.org/vatican/us-conservative-catholics-wine-and-dine-cardin...
____________________________________
margd: Meanwhile Trump and DOGE cuts have the RCs scrambling to support food kitchens, refugees, overseas charities ...
Brian Fraga | 5 May 2025
... Novemdiales — the traditional nine-day mourning period that follows the death of a pope — coincided with "America Week," an annual American-led fundraising period for Catholic causes in the Eternal City featuring soirees, receptions and dinner parties at upscale hotels, palaces and venerable church settings.
American VIPs from groups such as the Papal Foundation are in Rome for their yearly post-Easter "pilgrimage" where they deliver an annual financial pledge to the Vatican. Among them are representatives from the Napa Institute, an organization that since its founding in 2010 has become a driving force to lobby for the U.S. Catholic Church to adhere to conservative values ...
... one anonymous Papal Foundation VIP said, "This room could raise a billion to help the church. So long as we have the right pope."
https://www.ncronline.org/vatican/us-conservative-catholics-wine-and-dine-cardin...
____________________________________
margd: Meanwhile Trump and DOGE cuts have the RCs scrambling to support food kitchens, refugees, overseas charities ...
88margd
Selfishness Is Not a Virtue
David French | June 5, 2025
... Too many Christians are transforming Christianity into a vertical faith, one that focuses on your personal relationship with God at the expense of the horizontal relationship you have with your neighbors ...
{Sen Joni} Ernst's fake apology was something different — and worse — than simple trolling. It exemplified the contortions of American Christianity in the Trump era. ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/05/opinion/ernst-apology-christianity-evangelica...
-----------------------------------------------
Sen. Ernst issues sarcastic apology to 'we're all going to die' comment (0:31)
Jun 1, 2025
Sen. Joni Ernst doubled down on controversial comments she made at a town hall on Friday when a constituent asked about proposed cuts to Medicaid and SNAP*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T4F1E0oYPs
-----------------------------------------------
*Ernst explains controversial town hall comments
Joe Habersham and Hannah Fingerhut | Updated June 1, 2025
The Republican senator told attendees at a town hall “we all are going to die” as she addressed potential changes to Medicaid eligibility...
https://www.11alive.com/article/news/politics/national-politics/ernst-explains-c...
David French | June 5, 2025
... Too many Christians are transforming Christianity into a vertical faith, one that focuses on your personal relationship with God at the expense of the horizontal relationship you have with your neighbors ...
{Sen Joni} Ernst's fake apology was something different — and worse — than simple trolling. It exemplified the contortions of American Christianity in the Trump era. ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/05/opinion/ernst-apology-christianity-evangelica...
-----------------------------------------------
Sen. Ernst issues sarcastic apology to 'we're all going to die' comment (0:31)
Jun 1, 2025
Sen. Joni Ernst doubled down on controversial comments she made at a town hall on Friday when a constituent asked about proposed cuts to Medicaid and SNAP*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T4F1E0oYPs
-----------------------------------------------
*Ernst explains controversial town hall comments
Joe Habersham and Hannah Fingerhut | Updated June 1, 2025
The Republican senator told attendees at a town hall “we all are going to die” as she addressed potential changes to Medicaid eligibility...
https://www.11alive.com/article/news/politics/national-politics/ernst-explains-c...
89John5918
Southern Baptists move to end same-sex marriage in the US (BBC)
Given President Trump's own policies and personal example, these evangelicals arguably have a very narrow understanding of "God's design for marriage and family".
Southern Baptists, whose faith includes over 12 million members in the US, have endorsed a ban to end same-sex marriage in America... Experts say the evangelical group's values have increasingly shifted to align with the Christian right, a branch of conservatism that has gained momentum under US President Donald Trump... The Southern Baptists' resolution does not use the word "ban" directly. Instead, it calls for the "overturning of laws and court rulings, including Obergefell v. Hodges, that defy God's design for marriage and family". The resolution also calls "for laws that affirm marriage between one man and one woman". Any legal reversal of the Supreme Court's Obergefell decision would not lead automatically to a nationwide ban of same-sex marriage. Thirty-six states had already legalised same-sex marriage at the time of the ruling, and nearly 70% of Americans still support it, polls show... Eighty-five percent of white evangelical Protestants are likely to be Republican voters, according to a 2024 Pew Research survey... {Kristin Du Mez, a Calvin University history professor specializing in religion and politics} described a "transactional element" to the relationship between evangelicals and Trump...
Given President Trump's own policies and personal example, these evangelicals arguably have a very narrow understanding of "God's design for marriage and family".
90margd
Matt Gabriele @profgabriele.com | June 27, 2025 at 8:04 PM
Professor, medievalist, author THE BRIGHT AGES (2021), BETWEEN PROPHECY & APOCALYPSE (2024), & OATHBREAKERS (2024) nostalgia/apocalypse. religion/violence. medieval/modern. Neutral Good. He/ him.
People (NOT @jackjenkins.me) have been sleeping on the religious left in the US
GOLIKEHELLMACHINE @golikehellmachine.com | June 27, 2025 at 7:41 PM
the catholic church choosing to pick a side is going to continue to be one of the more interesting developments of this administration
Fear and Faith: El Paso church leaders sound the alarm amid ICE crackdown
Adelina Romero, Rebecca Raghunath | June 26, 2025
As federal immigration enforcement intensifies, the Catholic Diocese of El Paso emerges as a frontline defender of immigrant rights.
https://www.ktep.org/2025-06-26/fear-and-faith-el-paso-church-leaders-sound-the-...
Professor, medievalist, author THE BRIGHT AGES (2021), BETWEEN PROPHECY & APOCALYPSE (2024), & OATHBREAKERS (2024) nostalgia/apocalypse. religion/violence. medieval/modern. Neutral Good. He/ him.
People (NOT @jackjenkins.me) have been sleeping on the religious left in the US
GOLIKEHELLMACHINE @golikehellmachine.com | June 27, 2025 at 7:41 PM
the catholic church choosing to pick a side is going to continue to be one of the more interesting developments of this administration
Fear and Faith: El Paso church leaders sound the alarm amid ICE crackdown
Adelina Romero, Rebecca Raghunath | June 26, 2025
As federal immigration enforcement intensifies, the Catholic Diocese of El Paso emerges as a frontline defender of immigrant rights.
https://www.ktep.org/2025-06-26/fear-and-faith-el-paso-church-leaders-sound-the-...
91John5918
>90 margd:
It will indeed be interesting. If the US Catholic Church enthusiastically begins to follow their American pope, as brone and others confidently predict, they will soon find themselves at odds with the current US government on many issues, as we already see in El Paso.
It will indeed be interesting. If the US Catholic Church enthusiastically begins to follow their American pope, as brone and others confidently predict, they will soon find themselves at odds with the current US government on many issues, as we already see in El Paso.
92margd
Covie @covie93.bsky.social | July 3, 2025 at 1:59 PM {bsky.app}
Christians praying for the passage of a bill that will hurt the poor, sick and children to help the rich.... {"Big, Beautiful Bill"}
{Photo, Congressmen praying} https://bsky.app/profile/covie93.bsky.social/post/3lt3cmdfbdc2d
Christians praying for the passage of a bill that will hurt the poor, sick and children to help the rich.... {"Big, Beautiful Bill"}
{Photo, Congressmen praying} https://bsky.app/profile/covie93.bsky.social/post/3lt3cmdfbdc2d
93margd
>90 margd: >91 John5918: contd.
U.S. Bishops’ President Reacts to Passage of One Big Beautiful Bill Act
USCCB Office of public Affairs | July 3, 2025
... Archbishop Timothy P. Broglio, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, lamented the great harm the bill will cause to many of the most vulnerable in society, making steeper cuts to Medicaid and clean energy tax credits, and adding more to the deficit ...
https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/us-bishops-president-reacts-passage-one-big-beau...
---------------------------------------------
20 bishops join interfaith letter against ICE funding boost in ‘Big Beautiful Bill’
Tyler Arnold | Jun 30, 2025
... The letter’s signatories included Cardinal Robert McElroy of the Archdiocese of Washington, D.C., and Cardinal Joseph Tobin of the Archdiocese of Newark, New Jersey. Phoenix Bishop John Dolan, Seattle Archbishop Paul Etienne, St. Louis Archbishop Mitchell Rozanski, and Sacramento, California, Bishop Jaime Soto were also among those who signed.
In addition to the bishops, other signatories to the letter included the leadership team of the Sisters of Mercy of the Americas. Some Lutheran, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Muslim, and Jewish faith leaders also signed the letter ...
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/265087/20-catholic-bishops-join-interfai...
U.S. Bishops’ President Reacts to Passage of One Big Beautiful Bill Act
USCCB Office of public Affairs | July 3, 2025
... Archbishop Timothy P. Broglio, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, lamented the great harm the bill will cause to many of the most vulnerable in society, making steeper cuts to Medicaid and clean energy tax credits, and adding more to the deficit ...
https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/us-bishops-president-reacts-passage-one-big-beau...
---------------------------------------------
20 bishops join interfaith letter against ICE funding boost in ‘Big Beautiful Bill’
Tyler Arnold | Jun 30, 2025
... The letter’s signatories included Cardinal Robert McElroy of the Archdiocese of Washington, D.C., and Cardinal Joseph Tobin of the Archdiocese of Newark, New Jersey. Phoenix Bishop John Dolan, Seattle Archbishop Paul Etienne, St. Louis Archbishop Mitchell Rozanski, and Sacramento, California, Bishop Jaime Soto were also among those who signed.
In addition to the bishops, other signatories to the letter included the leadership team of the Sisters of Mercy of the Americas. Some Lutheran, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Muslim, and Jewish faith leaders also signed the letter ...
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/265087/20-catholic-bishops-join-interfai...
942wonderY
>93 margd: I’m glad to see my bishop, Most Reverend John Stowe, is a signatory.
95John5918
>94 2wonderY:
I met John Stowe at a nonviolence conference in Rome a few years back. A very decent chap with a great concern for justice and peace. It's interesting to see that Timothy Broglio, the president of USCCB, has signed. He's generally viewed as fairly conservative.
I met John Stowe at a nonviolence conference in Rome a few years back. A very decent chap with a great concern for justice and peace. It's interesting to see that Timothy Broglio, the president of USCCB, has signed. He's generally viewed as fairly conservative.
97John5918
>96 brone:
I think it's difficult to see Bishop John Stowe as being "gratingly at odds" with USCCB when he has appended his signature to a letter signed by the President of said USCCB as well as two US cardinals and a number of other US Catholic archbishops and bishops.
But as I said in >91 John5918:, it's good to see US Catholic bishops standing firmly with their compatriot the Holy Father on the issue of migrants.
I think it's difficult to see Bishop John Stowe as being "gratingly at odds" with USCCB when he has appended his signature to a letter signed by the President of said USCCB as well as two US cardinals and a number of other US Catholic archbishops and bishops.
But as I said in >91 John5918:, it's good to see US Catholic bishops standing firmly with their compatriot the Holy Father on the issue of migrants.
98margd
Church Leaders Denounce Deportations
William Kristol | 10 July 2025
... The Department of Homeland Security tried to enlist the Bible in its efforts, tweeting out a video with grainy footage of immigration agents on boats and helicopters carrying out their missions under cover of darkness, while featuring a voiceover of a Border Patrol agent:
There’s a Bible verse I think about sometimes. Many times. It goes, “Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, ‘Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?’ And I said, ‘Here am I. Send me.’”
As Austin, Texas pastor Zach Lambert pointed out, in a much-retweeted post, that Bible verse is Isaiah 6:8—and the context in Isaiah cuts against DHS’s message.
“Here am I, send me” was the prophet Isaiah’s response after being called by God to deliver a message to the people of Israel. And what was that message? . . . “Your leaders are rebels, the companions of thieves. All of them love bribes and demand payoffs, but they refuse to defend the cause of orphans or fight for the rights of widows.” Isaiah 1:23
Pastor Lambert also pointed to Isaiah 10:1–3:
Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless.
Pastor Lambert’s post, and others in the same vein, have gotten a lot of pickup and support on social media. Maybe the flacks at DHS should leave the prophet Isaiah alone, and go about their sordid business without seeking Biblical blessing? But they’ll presumably continue to claim the moral high ground for their efforts. Could that lead to a further backlash? ...
Via email from https://substack.com/app?utm_campaign=email-read-in-app&utm_source=email
William Kristol | 10 July 2025
... The Department of Homeland Security tried to enlist the Bible in its efforts, tweeting out a video with grainy footage of immigration agents on boats and helicopters carrying out their missions under cover of darkness, while featuring a voiceover of a Border Patrol agent:
There’s a Bible verse I think about sometimes. Many times. It goes, “Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, ‘Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?’ And I said, ‘Here am I. Send me.’”
As Austin, Texas pastor Zach Lambert pointed out, in a much-retweeted post, that Bible verse is Isaiah 6:8—and the context in Isaiah cuts against DHS’s message.
“Here am I, send me” was the prophet Isaiah’s response after being called by God to deliver a message to the people of Israel. And what was that message? . . . “Your leaders are rebels, the companions of thieves. All of them love bribes and demand payoffs, but they refuse to defend the cause of orphans or fight for the rights of widows.” Isaiah 1:23
Pastor Lambert also pointed to Isaiah 10:1–3:
Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless.
Pastor Lambert’s post, and others in the same vein, have gotten a lot of pickup and support on social media. Maybe the flacks at DHS should leave the prophet Isaiah alone, and go about their sordid business without seeking Biblical blessing? But they’ll presumably continue to claim the moral high ground for their efforts. Could that lead to a further backlash? ...
Via email from https://substack.com/app?utm_campaign=email-read-in-app&utm_source=email
100John5918
US Church decries ‘unconscionable cuts’ in Trump’s ‘big, beautiful bill’
California bishop lifts Sunday obligation for Catholics fearing deportation
Both from the Tablet
“The final version of the bill includes unconscionable cuts to healthcare and food assistance, tax cuts that increase inequality, immigration provisions that harm families and children, and cuts to programs that protect God’s creation,” said Archbishop Timothy Broglio, president of the US bishops’ conference. “The bill, as passed, will cause the greatest harm to those who are especially vulnerable in our society. As its provisions go into effect, people will lose access to healthcare and struggle to buy groceries, family members will be separated, and vulnerable communities will be less prepared to cope with environmental impacts of pollution and extreme weather. More must be done to prevent these devastating effects.” Sr Mary Haddad SSM, president of the Catholic Health Association, warned of the damage the cuts would cause to Medicaid, the government programme that provides health insurance to poor Americans, and which is critical in providing long-term care for the elderly... “There’s something radically wrong with a society that takes from the poorest to give to the wealthiest. It’s just wrong,” {Cardinal Robert McElroy} said...
California bishop lifts Sunday obligation for Catholics fearing deportation
Bishop Alberto Rojas of San Bernardino, California granted a dispensation from the obligation to attend Sunday Mass for those within the diocese who fear deportation. The bishop said all of the faithful within the diocese who possess “genuine fear” of arrest while attending Mass are dispensed from the obligation until further notice... Rojas said the decision to grant the dispensation came after he recognised that “fear of immigration enforcement raids by the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) may deter some members of our diocese from fulfilling the obligation to attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation”... attendance for Spanish language Masses across the diocese has been “down about 50 per cent” since around the time raids began in southern California last month... the diocese is aware of two recent instances of ICE enforcement actions on church properties...
Both from the Tablet
101John5918
Detroit archbishop leads procession to protest ICE policies (Tablet)
Archbishop Edward Weisenburger of Detroit led a procession of clergy and lay Catholics the city’s Immigration and Customs Enforcement office on 14 July to call for the agency to stop instilling fear in the immigrant community and revise its policies accordingly. Weisenburger, who was installed as archbishop on 18 March, has a long record of support for migrants and opposition to the Trump administration’s anti-immigrant policies from his previous tenure as Bishop of Tucson, Arizona. The new archbishop led the group in prayer before the procession. “Heavenly Father, You are the source of all life and light. You call us to reverence your presence in all those we meet, but most especially the poor, the needy, the troubled, and the immigrant,” Weisenburger prayed. “Be with us today as we spiritually accompany those who are suffering and frightened. Make firm our resolve to reveal and uphold their dignity as your beloved sons and daughters.” The procession in Detroit comes as other bishops are accompanying migrants at court houses where ICE agents have arrested those trying to regularise their legal status are making court-ordered appearances...
102margd
Miami archbishop joins Knights on Bikes* to pray for clergy access to Alligator Alcatraz
Garrett Shanley | 23 July 2025
... Clergy's lack of access to migrants in the custody of Immigration and Customs Enforcement isn't isolated to Miami. Priests and ministers from coast to coast say they aren't being allowed into migrant detention facilities to provide counseling and religious services.
In California, evangelical leaders in a statement expressed concern about the limited access. "Government must not impose restrictions on churches, individuals, or faith-based organizations that offer spiritual or material support to immigrants — regardless of legal status."
... U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement regulations require detention facilities to provide detainees of different religious beliefs with "reasonable and equitable opportunities to participate in the practices of their respective faiths, constrained only by concerns about safety, security and the orderly operation of the facility."...
https://www.ncronline.org/news/miami-archbishop-joins-knights-bikes-pray-clergy-...
* Knights of Columbus on motorcycles — known as Knights on Bikes
Garrett Shanley | 23 July 2025
... Clergy's lack of access to migrants in the custody of Immigration and Customs Enforcement isn't isolated to Miami. Priests and ministers from coast to coast say they aren't being allowed into migrant detention facilities to provide counseling and religious services.
In California, evangelical leaders in a statement expressed concern about the limited access. "Government must not impose restrictions on churches, individuals, or faith-based organizations that offer spiritual or material support to immigrants — regardless of legal status."
... U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement regulations require detention facilities to provide detainees of different religious beliefs with "reasonable and equitable opportunities to participate in the practices of their respective faiths, constrained only by concerns about safety, security and the orderly operation of the facility."...
https://www.ncronline.org/news/miami-archbishop-joins-knights-bikes-pray-clergy-...
* Knights of Columbus on motorcycles — known as Knights on Bikes
104John5918
>103 brone:
The percentage of the immigrant population who are "murderers, rapists, and child molesters and scroungers" is tiny. Migrants who have made it that far tend to be law abiding, hard working and self motivated if given the opportunity. Indeed their percentage of "murderers, rapists, and child molesters and scroungers" is unlikely to be any greater than the percentage amongst US citizens, probably less given that the USA is one of the most violent countries in the world and one which imprisons the greatest percentage of its population.
But if you are saying that you can't see "the face of Christ" in them, then you are definitely going against Catholic Tradition. We are all created in the image and likeness of God (Catechism of the Catholic Church #1701). Jesus went out of his way to engage with criminals, foreigners, thieves, sex workers, the marginalised and rejected of his society, even the foreign invaders. In Matthew 25 we are exhorted to welcome and help not only strangers but also prisoners, which includes murderers, rapists and child molesters.
You are also at odds with your own bishops' conference, not just individual bishops, which has spoken out strongly against current US government policies on migrants. I'm not sure how you link the bishops' statements on immigration with LGBTQ issues.
The percentage of the immigrant population who are "murderers, rapists, and child molesters and scroungers" is tiny. Migrants who have made it that far tend to be law abiding, hard working and self motivated if given the opportunity. Indeed their percentage of "murderers, rapists, and child molesters and scroungers" is unlikely to be any greater than the percentage amongst US citizens, probably less given that the USA is one of the most violent countries in the world and one which imprisons the greatest percentage of its population.
But if you are saying that you can't see "the face of Christ" in them, then you are definitely going against Catholic Tradition. We are all created in the image and likeness of God (Catechism of the Catholic Church #1701). Jesus went out of his way to engage with criminals, foreigners, thieves, sex workers, the marginalised and rejected of his society, even the foreign invaders. In Matthew 25 we are exhorted to welcome and help not only strangers but also prisoners, which includes murderers, rapists and child molesters.
You are also at odds with your own bishops' conference, not just individual bishops, which has spoken out strongly against current US government policies on migrants. I'm not sure how you link the bishops' statements on immigration with LGBTQ issues.
106John5918
>105 brone:
Of course countries have a legal right to control their borders (although one might argue whether the 19th century European invention of the "nation state" with controllable borders is a good thing or not), but in the real world refugees and asylum seekers often do not have the luxury of meeting all the bureaucratic requirements, which many nations are constantly making more and more onerous. Hence our moral obligation to the stranger, the refugee, the asylum seeker, the migrant, the person in need, stands over and above any arbitrary secular legislation. Jesus did not say, "Whenever you welcome the stranger you welcome me, provided of course that she has all the correct Roman legal documents to support her claim. Oh, and by the way, if she happens to be a criminal, you don't have to welcome her".
Of course countries have a legal right to control their borders (although one might argue whether the 19th century European invention of the "nation state" with controllable borders is a good thing or not), but in the real world refugees and asylum seekers often do not have the luxury of meeting all the bureaucratic requirements, which many nations are constantly making more and more onerous. Hence our moral obligation to the stranger, the refugee, the asylum seeker, the migrant, the person in need, stands over and above any arbitrary secular legislation. Jesus did not say, "Whenever you welcome the stranger you welcome me, provided of course that she has all the correct Roman legal documents to support her claim. Oh, and by the way, if she happens to be a criminal, you don't have to welcome her".
107John5918
A different perspective on refugees, from one of the world's poorest countries: Uganda’s open-door policy gives refugees a new lease on life (African Centre for Justice and Peace Studies)
Uganda is one of the few African countries with an open-door policy for refugees. Since before Uganda gained its independence in 1962, Uganda has served as a host land for the African people, especially refugees from neighboring countries in the Horn of Africa region. This is motivated and driven by human nature, solidarity, and rooted in African brotherhood, or as they say in Swahili, 'Rafiki' and 'Mukwano' in Luganda, which can be broadly interpreted as friendship. Uganda’s open-door policy is also greatly influenced by Pan-Africanism, which is evident as a foundational philosophy. The country currently hosts 1.8 million refugees from various nationalities, including South Sudanese, Rwandans, Congolese, and Sudanese, who have been in and out of Uganda since 1955 and 2016 due to security issues in their respective countries. This shows Uganda's consistent stance towards Pan-African ideals. This philosophy is also reflected in Ugandan refugee laws, which include provisions for urban refugees, allowing new arrivals to live in cities or metropolitan areas... Despite difficulties, Uganda continues to be a model for refugee acceptance...
111margd
Pushback to Trump’s foreign aid cuts is coming from a surprising corner
Carmen Paun | 09/02/2025
The National Association of Evangelicals is headed to Capitol Hill to convince lawmakers to keep feeding the world’s hungry.
... Four in five evangelicals voted for Trump in November. But Trump’s decision to pull back hundreds of millions in foreign aid and shutter the agency that dispensed it have proven costly to evangelicals who run some of the many nonprofits that have long partnered with the U.S. government to provide help to countries that don’t have enough food.
Eager to see assistance flowing again, the National Association of Evangelicals will take its concerns to Capitol Hill after lawmakers return this week from their summer break. The lobbying campaign by the association’s 40 Christian denominations marks a rare policy split with Trump. Its success or failure will show whether evangelicals have enough clout to convince GOP lawmakers loyal to Trump to cross him...
... Trump has said foreign aid must more directly serve U.S. interests and that nations must step up to help their own people. His administration has promised to continue “life-saving” assistance after the cuts of the winter, but aid providers say the damage he did to the groups that carry out the mission has proved lasting...
https://www.politico.com/news/2025/09/02/trump-evangelicals-foreign-humanitarian...
Carmen Paun | 09/02/2025
The National Association of Evangelicals is headed to Capitol Hill to convince lawmakers to keep feeding the world’s hungry.
... Four in five evangelicals voted for Trump in November. But Trump’s decision to pull back hundreds of millions in foreign aid and shutter the agency that dispensed it have proven costly to evangelicals who run some of the many nonprofits that have long partnered with the U.S. government to provide help to countries that don’t have enough food.
Eager to see assistance flowing again, the National Association of Evangelicals will take its concerns to Capitol Hill after lawmakers return this week from their summer break. The lobbying campaign by the association’s 40 Christian denominations marks a rare policy split with Trump. Its success or failure will show whether evangelicals have enough clout to convince GOP lawmakers loyal to Trump to cross him...
... Trump has said foreign aid must more directly serve U.S. interests and that nations must step up to help their own people. His administration has promised to continue “life-saving” assistance after the cuts of the winter, but aid providers say the damage he did to the groups that carry out the mission has proved lasting...
https://www.politico.com/news/2025/09/02/trump-evangelicals-foreign-humanitarian...
112John5918
>111 margd:
That's good to hear. Indeed there are some large US evangelical NGOs, many of which I have worked alongside in Sudan. Some (such as Samaritan's Purse) have also been quite influential in US politics.
Trump's statement that "foreign aid must more directly serve U.S. interests" is disingenuous as that has always been the case. A major component of US foreign aid has always been the US grain surplus which is basically a way of subsidising US farmers (and the same is true of the EU, Canada and other grain producers). It is founded on US Public Law 480 of 1954, which provided "the basis for a permanent expansion of our exports of agricultural products with lasting benefits to ourselves and peoples of other lands". The law's original purpose was to expand international trade, to promote the economic stability of American agriculture, to make maximum use of surplus agricultural commodities in the furtherance of foreign policy, and to stimulate the expansion of foreign trade in agricultural commodities produced in the United States. Some view the law as a means of disposing of costly domestic agricultural surpluses*, and it was used to put political pressure on other nations, eg limiting grain shipments for famine aid to India due to its criticism of US policies in Vietnam. President Kennedy spoke of it as a powerful tool to counter the spread of Communism.
* My italics throughout.
That's good to hear. Indeed there are some large US evangelical NGOs, many of which I have worked alongside in Sudan. Some (such as Samaritan's Purse) have also been quite influential in US politics.
Trump's statement that "foreign aid must more directly serve U.S. interests" is disingenuous as that has always been the case. A major component of US foreign aid has always been the US grain surplus which is basically a way of subsidising US farmers (and the same is true of the EU, Canada and other grain producers). It is founded on US Public Law 480 of 1954, which provided "the basis for a permanent expansion of our exports of agricultural products with lasting benefits to ourselves and peoples of other lands". The law's original purpose was to expand international trade, to promote the economic stability of American agriculture, to make maximum use of surplus agricultural commodities in the furtherance of foreign policy, and to stimulate the expansion of foreign trade in agricultural commodities produced in the United States. Some view the law as a means of disposing of costly domestic agricultural surpluses*, and it was used to put political pressure on other nations, eg limiting grain shipments for famine aid to India due to its criticism of US policies in Vietnam. President Kennedy spoke of it as a powerful tool to counter the spread of Communism.
* My italics throughout.
113margd
>112 John5918: Not ideal, I know, but buying domestic grains at least creates a vested interest in continuing aid programs -- especially among R voters in rural areas? Sounds like loss of markets to tariffs and aid cuts are coming home to roost this fall. I'm afraid, though, that Trump may not be unhappy to see hedge funds and the like buy up smaller farms ... or to see produce destroyed: https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Food/state-department-addresses-decision-destroy-500-... (DOGE ...)
114MsMixte
>113 margd: The vice-president is even more ecstatic that smaller farms may be ripe for the plucking.
Such a despicable lot of scammers, grifters, con artists.
Such a despicable lot of scammers, grifters, con artists.
115John5918
Iowa bishops insist immigration is ‘moral matter’ amid Trump rhetoric (Tablet)
Catholic leaders in the US continue to confront President Donald Trump’s anti-immigrant policies through teaching documents and public witness. In Iowa, the state’s four Catholic bishops issued a joint “pastoral reflection” on immigration, approaching it from a doctrinal and moral perspective. “Immigration is not merely a political or economic issue; it is a deeply moral matter that calls for a response rooted in faith, justice, and mercy,” the bishops wrote. “Sacred Scripture consistently reveals God’s care for the immigrant and the refugee: ‘You shall not oppress a stranger; you yourselves know how it feels to be a stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt’ (Exodus 23:9)”... The bishops voiced concern about “political rhetoric that often generates fear and division”, and cited Pope Leo XIV: “All of us, in the course of our lives, can find ourselves healthy or sick, employed or unemployed, living in our native land or in a foreign country, yet our dignity always remains unchanged: it is the dignity of a creature willed and loved by God.” It also refers to the words of Pius XII, John XXIII, John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Pope Francis. The bishops reminded the faithful that the “social mission of the Church must always begin with persons who are poor, displaced, and otherwise neglected”. Acknowledging government’s duty to regulate immigration, they insisted, “The Church does not argue for unrestricted migration, but she does reject policies that are inhumane, arbitrary, or disproportionately punitive.” The government should not oppose “providing legal aid, pastoral support, and material assistance where possible” to migrants, they said...
116John5918
A migrant is now the bishop of a US Catholic diocese!
First African Bishop Ordained to Lead U.S. Diocese in Houma-Thibodaux, Louisiana (ACI Africa)
First African Bishop Ordained to Lead U.S. Diocese in Houma-Thibodaux, Louisiana (ACI Africa)
Bishop Simon Peter Engurait was ordained last week, making him the first African bishop in the mainland United States. On Sept. 5, Engurait was installed as the sixth bishop of the Diocese of Houma-Thibodaux in Louisiana during a ceremony at Nicholls State University... Engurait is believed to be the first African bishop to lead an American diocese. He was born in Ngora, Uganda, in 1971...
119margd
Tyler Robinson’s grandmother says their entire family are Republicans: ‘I don’t know a single Democrat’
Erin Keller | 13 September 2025
Tyler Robinson’s grandmother is speaking out in defense of her grandson, who is accused of killing Charlie Kirk on Wednesday at Utah Valley University in Orem...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/tyler-robinson-family-re...
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Tea Pain @teapainusa.bsky.social | September 12, 2025 at 5:25 PM:
We now know Kirk shooter Tyler Robinson followed Laura Loomer on X.
Is this the tweet that pushed him over the edge?
https://bsky.app/profile/teapainusa.bsky.social/post/3lyo77rtjjs2e
----------------------------------------------------
NY Times Pitchbot @nytpitchbot.bsky.social | September 12, 2025 at 10:14 AM
When a liberal is murdered, we shouldn’t speculate about the political motives of the killer. When a conservative is murdered, it’s important that we immediately blame the left.
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NY Times Pitchbot @nytpitchbot.bsky.social | September 10, 2025 at 8:47 PM
Opinion | Charlie Kirk's blood is on the hands of Democrats who failed to convince their Republican colleagues to support gun control.
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Charlie Kirk once said prominent Black women didn't have 'brain processing power' to be taken seriously
Anna Rascouët-Paz | Sept. 12, 2025
He was talking specifically about Michelle Obama, Joy Reid, Sheila Jackson Lee and Ketanji Brown Jackson...
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/charlie-kirk-black-women/
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Barack Obama @BarackObama | 5:26 PM · Sep 10, 2025:
We don’t yet know what motivated the person who shot and killed Charlie Kirk, but this kind of despicable violence has no place in our democracy. Michelle and I will be praying for Charlie’s family tonight, especially his wife Erika and their two young children.
Erin Keller | 13 September 2025
Tyler Robinson’s grandmother is speaking out in defense of her grandson, who is accused of killing Charlie Kirk on Wednesday at Utah Valley University in Orem...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/tyler-robinson-family-re...
----------------------------------------------------
Tea Pain @teapainusa.bsky.social | September 12, 2025 at 5:25 PM:
We now know Kirk shooter Tyler Robinson followed Laura Loomer on X.
Is this the tweet that pushed him over the edge?
https://bsky.app/profile/teapainusa.bsky.social/post/3lyo77rtjjs2e
----------------------------------------------------
NY Times Pitchbot @nytpitchbot.bsky.social | September 12, 2025 at 10:14 AM
When a liberal is murdered, we shouldn’t speculate about the political motives of the killer. When a conservative is murdered, it’s important that we immediately blame the left.
-----------------------------------------------------
NY Times Pitchbot @nytpitchbot.bsky.social | September 10, 2025 at 8:47 PM
Opinion | Charlie Kirk's blood is on the hands of Democrats who failed to convince their Republican colleagues to support gun control.
-----------------------------------------------------
Charlie Kirk once said prominent Black women didn't have 'brain processing power' to be taken seriously
Anna Rascouët-Paz | Sept. 12, 2025
He was talking specifically about Michelle Obama, Joy Reid, Sheila Jackson Lee and Ketanji Brown Jackson...
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/charlie-kirk-black-women/
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Barack Obama @BarackObama | 5:26 PM · Sep 10, 2025:
We don’t yet know what motivated the person who shot and killed Charlie Kirk, but this kind of despicable violence has no place in our democracy. Michelle and I will be praying for Charlie’s family tonight, especially his wife Erika and their two young children.
120TheToadRevoltof84
>118 brone:
They blame Trump. They are useless as Christians and more useless as intellects. They support those in the know and piss on God's word. Read John's version of Christianity and how he spreads it, it's disgusting and he's not a peacemaker, he's a capitulator and I can't judge his heart but his weakness and self interest are apparent. It's utterly shameful.
They blame Trump. They are useless as Christians and more useless as intellects. They support those in the know and piss on God's word. Read John's version of Christianity and how he spreads it, it's disgusting and he's not a peacemaker, he's a capitulator and I can't judge his heart but his weakness and self interest are apparent. It's utterly shameful.
121John5918
>118 brone:
Just for the record, most of us outside the USA had never heard of Charlie Kirk, and had no idea of his views nor his religious beliefs until we started to hear increasingly violent language in response to his murder. Apparently it is still not clear exactly why he was murdered, except that it almost certainly has political connotations in a nation where political violence is becoming commonplace*. All violence is to be condemned, and I think I've been pretty unequivocal about that in many posts in many threads, and I have posted in at least one thread in the Pro and Con group related to him.
Incidentally my username is John5918, not 5318. There have been plenty of fine steam locomotives numbered 5318, including in the USA, but none of them is East African Railways Class 59 Garratt locomotive 5918 Mount Gelai, a veritable behemoth which still exists in preservation in Nairobi and which I have had the privilege and pleasure of helping to maintain and operate.
Edited to add:
* And, as noted by a prominent right wing poster in another thread, he was mentally disturbed, which is probably the case in most instances of political violence, right or left. In that sense these young shooters are themselves also victims of a system which doesn't invest enough in care and treatment of mental illnesses while at the same time making lethal weapons easily available to them.
Just for the record, most of us outside the USA had never heard of Charlie Kirk, and had no idea of his views nor his religious beliefs until we started to hear increasingly violent language in response to his murder. Apparently it is still not clear exactly why he was murdered, except that it almost certainly has political connotations in a nation where political violence is becoming commonplace*. All violence is to be condemned, and I think I've been pretty unequivocal about that in many posts in many threads, and I have posted in at least one thread in the Pro and Con group related to him.
Incidentally my username is John5918, not 5318. There have been plenty of fine steam locomotives numbered 5318, including in the USA, but none of them is East African Railways Class 59 Garratt locomotive 5918 Mount Gelai, a veritable behemoth which still exists in preservation in Nairobi and which I have had the privilege and pleasure of helping to maintain and operate.
Edited to add:
* And, as noted by a prominent right wing poster in another thread, he was mentally disturbed, which is probably the case in most instances of political violence, right or left. In that sense these young shooters are themselves also victims of a system which doesn't invest enough in care and treatment of mental illnesses while at the same time making lethal weapons easily available to them.
122margd
Fact Check: Charlie Kirk once said some gun deaths 'worth it' in order to have Second Amendment
Jordan Liles | September 10, 2025
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/fact-check-charlie-kirk-once-205500283.html
-----------------------------------------------------
Yes, Charlie Kirk's last words were, 'Counting or not counting gang violence?'
The conservative activist was fatally shot Sept. 10, 2025, during an event at a Utah college.
Rae Deng | Sept. 10, 2025
...ATTENDEE: ... Do you know how many mass shooters there have been in America over the last 10 years?
KIRK: Counting or not counting gang violence? ...
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/charlie-kirk-last-words/
Jordan Liles | September 10, 2025
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/fact-check-charlie-kirk-once-205500283.html
-----------------------------------------------------
Yes, Charlie Kirk's last words were, 'Counting or not counting gang violence?'
The conservative activist was fatally shot Sept. 10, 2025, during an event at a Utah college.
Rae Deng | Sept. 10, 2025
...ATTENDEE: ... Do you know how many mass shooters there have been in America over the last 10 years?
KIRK: Counting or not counting gang violence? ...
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/charlie-kirk-last-words/
123John5918
>120 TheToadRevoltof84:
I think rephrasing your post in less aggressive language it might simply be that you and I have different interpretations of Christianity. Thank God for diversity.
I think rephrasing your post in less aggressive language it might simply be that you and I have different interpretations of Christianity. Thank God for diversity.
124TheToadRevoltof84
>123 John5918:
I treat non-christians with a forgiveness and empathy. I treat false prophets and Christians that spread lies in the name of Christ with tough love. No need for diversity, just a humble understanding that without God we're nothing.
I treat non-christians with a forgiveness and empathy. I treat false prophets and Christians that spread lies in the name of Christ with tough love. No need for diversity, just a humble understanding that without God we're nothing.
125John5918
>124 TheToadRevoltof84:
In other words, you and I have different interpretations of Christianity, although we agree on the humble understanding that without God we're nothing. I respect your interpretation, while disagreeing with it. You apparently do not respect other people's interpretations. That's your right.
In other words, you and I have different interpretations of Christianity, although we agree on the humble understanding that without God we're nothing. I respect your interpretation, while disagreeing with it. You apparently do not respect other people's interpretations. That's your right.
127TheToadRevoltof84
>125 John5918:
I don't respect your version of Marxist Christianity. You are a capitulator and intentionally do so for your own image.
I don't respect your version of Marxist Christianity. You are a capitulator and intentionally do so for your own image.
128GandalfTheGreen
>127 TheToadRevoltof84: Always fascinating to see the crazy people argue about which imaginary version of which imaginary sky deity is the 'true God'. I have a 7-11 down the street from me that always has unhoused people hanging out behind it having conversations that sound just like that. Hopefully you do less meth, at least.
129TheToadRevoltof84
>128 GandalfTheGreen:
Your feelings are still hurt, I see. You're offended because you need approval. Well, ask John for it. He'll applaud a Cannibal for just being themselves so they aren't offended.
I did read your half true story in the other thread, and I'm further convinced that you simply need help. I do hope you simply go away, unlike the sick whacko you may lead yourself to become if you're not careful, but it doesn't want to let you.
You and your two year old version of sky deity... because of your weak need for human approval. Just wake up and quit being a selfish little brat... The fact that you use every pathetic little term of the modern woke screams of inauthenticity.
Your entire conversation is a gobbledegook mash of modern think. You're a sad scoffer with a false sense of self-importance. Go be a dad and do not waste my time.
Just to clarify, I'm not a better or more valuable person than you. But in this forum, with your sickness, it won't help either of us.
Your feelings are still hurt, I see. You're offended because you need approval. Well, ask John for it. He'll applaud a Cannibal for just being themselves so they aren't offended.
I did read your half true story in the other thread, and I'm further convinced that you simply need help. I do hope you simply go away, unlike the sick whacko you may lead yourself to become if you're not careful, but it doesn't want to let you.
You and your two year old version of sky deity... because of your weak need for human approval. Just wake up and quit being a selfish little brat... The fact that you use every pathetic little term of the modern woke screams of inauthenticity.
Your entire conversation is a gobbledegook mash of modern think. You're a sad scoffer with a false sense of self-importance. Go be a dad and do not waste my time.
Just to clarify, I'm not a better or more valuable person than you. But in this forum, with your sickness, it won't help either of us.
131TheToadRevoltof84
>130 brone:
All this said very well, but John doesn't recognize that we whole heartedly wish for him to actually believe God.
All this said very well, but John doesn't recognize that we whole heartedly wish for him to actually believe God.
132John5918
For the record, I do actually believe in God. I've been a Catholic and ecumenical missionary for fifty years, and although now officially retired I am still called upon by my cardinal to serve the Church from time to time. None of the Catholic or protestant Church leaders with whom I have worked, nor the theologians I have engaged with, nor my spiritual directors and confessors, nor the ordinary Christians with whom I have served appear to have discerned that I am a closet atheist, Marxist or any of the other things you allege, so either you are to be congratulated on discovering something which all of them have missed over half a century of close encounter, or just possibly you are wrong about me. Who am I to judge?
As for social justice, a well-thumbed and much underlined and annotated copy of the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church sits by my desk. Call me old-fashioned, traditional even, but I prefer to base my "idea" of social justice on that rather than on internet posts on LT. But as we Catholics say, semper caritas; let us always engage each other with charity.
As for social justice, a well-thumbed and much underlined and annotated copy of the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church sits by my desk. Call me old-fashioned, traditional even, but I prefer to base my "idea" of social justice on that rather than on internet posts on LT. But as we Catholics say, semper caritas; let us always engage each other with charity.
133GandalfTheGreen
>131 TheToadRevoltof84: Good grief, is this some sort of Catholic versus Protestant thing? Didn't you guys iron that stuff out several hundred years ago? It's like fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on. Trust me, friend, I don't think I'm the one with the sickness. Just practice your beliefs in private and stop inflicting them on normal people.
134John5918
>133 GandalfTheGreen:
Thanks for reminding us how ridiculous we appear when we argue publicly and often uncivilly and uncharitably about Christian doctrine instead of just getting on with important Christian imperatives such as loving one's neighbour as oneself.
Thanks for reminding us how ridiculous we appear when we argue publicly and often uncivilly and uncharitably about Christian doctrine instead of just getting on with important Christian imperatives such as loving one's neighbour as oneself.
135bnielsen
>133 GandalfTheGreen: I'll second that! Nice short and clear statement.
136GandalfTheGreen
>134 John5918: In hindsight I feel I should clarify I genuinely have no beef with individuals who practice their sincerely held beliefs in their own lives. I grew up in a Christian denomination that both you and Toad would probably agree is heretical, but I no longer hold any religious convictions myself. That being said I did read the Bible thoroughly over the course of the first two decades of my life, and part of the reason I left the organization of my birth was because I was appalled at how so-called Christians could elevate a book as holy, but then openly ignore so many of its tenets.
It's probably obvious that I'm not a fan of a lot of modern Christians, but at the same time, that's partially because I feel like if these people actually followed the words of Jesus that they espouse, the world would certainly be a better place. And I by no means single out Christians; they are just the majority in my country, and I live in an extremely conservative and heavily Evangelical area (don't get me started on the Mormons either). Really, I have an issue with most organized religion trying to police people's private lives. I also have a particular sensitivity for how a religion treats their sisters in spirituality, and women in general.
For me it's very simple; people should be allowed to live their own lives.
As a closing statement, though I am not a religious person myself these days, I still feel a connection to the beliefs of my youth. A Bible still sits upon my shelf. I feel as though God and his Son care more about what is in a person's heart and soul rather than if they attended the 'correct' denomination's church services. I feel there are a great many 'pious' individuals who are very confident in their standing with God who will be gravely disappointed; while on the other hand, there exist a great many individuals of faith and goodness whom God has taken note of, regardless of where they spend their Sunday mornings.
Kind regards, have a good day. I wish you happiness and fulfillment in your beliefs.
It's probably obvious that I'm not a fan of a lot of modern Christians, but at the same time, that's partially because I feel like if these people actually followed the words of Jesus that they espouse, the world would certainly be a better place. And I by no means single out Christians; they are just the majority in my country, and I live in an extremely conservative and heavily Evangelical area (don't get me started on the Mormons either). Really, I have an issue with most organized religion trying to police people's private lives. I also have a particular sensitivity for how a religion treats their sisters in spirituality, and women in general.
For me it's very simple; people should be allowed to live their own lives.
As a closing statement, though I am not a religious person myself these days, I still feel a connection to the beliefs of my youth. A Bible still sits upon my shelf. I feel as though God and his Son care more about what is in a person's heart and soul rather than if they attended the 'correct' denomination's church services. I feel there are a great many 'pious' individuals who are very confident in their standing with God who will be gravely disappointed; while on the other hand, there exist a great many individuals of faith and goodness whom God has taken note of, regardless of where they spend their Sunday mornings.
Kind regards, have a good day. I wish you happiness and fulfillment in your beliefs.
137margd
>133 GandalfTheGreen: "... is this some sort of Catholic versus Protestant thing? ... Just practice your beliefs in private and stop inflicting them on normal people."
Not exactly Catholic v Protestant, as some "conservative" Catholics have joined some "conservative" Evangelists & Pentecostalists in foisting their beliefs on the rest of us, via the Christian Nationalist movement and especially, Project 2025. American Conservatives are not alone or the first to use religion (and other mass movements -- read The True Believer), of course. Putin is likewise using the Russian Orthodox Church, and popular sentiments such as homophobia, to pull people to his sphere of influence.
Diarmaid MacCulloch concludes his tome The Reformation: A History by stating that the Reformation continues in America, with groups continuing to splinter off. I had opportunity to observe one such ragged little splinter group of Apostolics: with emphasis on "purity" etc., it pulled people away from the larger community. Scallywags thrive on isolation to interpret Scripture and push politics for their own benefit and power... IMHO.
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CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM IN THE UNITED STATES
"Christian nationalism asserts that the United States is a country founded by and for Christians. Christian nationalists in the United States advocate "a fusion of identitarian Christian identity and cultural conservatism with American civic belonging". It has been noted to bear overlap with Christian fundamentalism, white supremacy, Christian supremacy, the Seven Mountain Mandate movement, and dominionism. Most researchers have described Christian nationalism as "authoritarian" and "boundary-enforcing", but recent research has focused on how libertarian, small-government ideology and neoliberal political economics have become part of the American Christian political identity..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_nationalism_in_the_United_States
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PROJECT 2025: COMMENTARY
Spencer Chretien | Jan 31, 2023
https://www.heritage.org/conservatism/commentary/project-2025
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PROJECT 2025'S "MANDATE FOR LEADERSHIP: THE CONSERVATIVE PROMISE"
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24088042-project-2025s-mandate-for-leade...
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PROJECT 2025 TRACKER
"What is Project 2025?"
"Project 2025 is a comprehensive conservative policy blueprint developed by The Heritage Foundation and supported by an alliance of over 100 conservative organizations. It provides a detailed roadmap for transforming the federal government and implementing conservative policies in a future Republican presidential administration."
"Key Components
The initiative is built on four main pillars: a nearly 900-page policy guide called “Mandate for Leadership 2025,” a personnel database to identify conservative candidates for government positions, a “Presidential Administration Academy” for training future administration officials, and a 180-day action playbook for immediate implementation.
"Policy Areas
Project 2025 proposes significant changes across nearly all areas of government, including restructuring federal agencies, immigration and border policies, reproductive rights, LGBTQ+ protections, law enforcement, economic regulation, and social programs. The plan emphasizes reducing the size of the federal government, centralizing executive power, and implementing traditional conservative values."
"Different Perspectives
Supporters argue that Project 2025:
Provides clear, actionable plans for efficient governance
Restores traditional conservative principles and values
Reduces bureaucratic inefficiency and government overreach
Strengthens executive authority to implement unified policies"
"Critics warn that Project 2025:
Threatens democratic institutions and checks and balances
Politicizes the civil service and law enforcement
Imposes extreme social policies that limit individual rights
Risks undermining essential government programs and protections"
"This tracker aims to provide objective monitoring of which Project 2025 proposals are being implemented, without advocating for or against specific policies. Our goal is to increase transparency and public awareness of policy changes.We encourage users to research multiple sources and form their own opinions."
https://www.project2025.observer/en
{margd:check out bar graphs in the status report!}
Not exactly Catholic v Protestant, as some "conservative" Catholics have joined some "conservative" Evangelists & Pentecostalists in foisting their beliefs on the rest of us, via the Christian Nationalist movement and especially, Project 2025. American Conservatives are not alone or the first to use religion (and other mass movements -- read The True Believer), of course. Putin is likewise using the Russian Orthodox Church, and popular sentiments such as homophobia, to pull people to his sphere of influence.
Diarmaid MacCulloch concludes his tome The Reformation: A History by stating that the Reformation continues in America, with groups continuing to splinter off. I had opportunity to observe one such ragged little splinter group of Apostolics: with emphasis on "purity" etc., it pulled people away from the larger community. Scallywags thrive on isolation to interpret Scripture and push politics for their own benefit and power... IMHO.
------------------------------------------------
CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM IN THE UNITED STATES
"Christian nationalism asserts that the United States is a country founded by and for Christians. Christian nationalists in the United States advocate "a fusion of identitarian Christian identity and cultural conservatism with American civic belonging". It has been noted to bear overlap with Christian fundamentalism, white supremacy, Christian supremacy, the Seven Mountain Mandate movement, and dominionism. Most researchers have described Christian nationalism as "authoritarian" and "boundary-enforcing", but recent research has focused on how libertarian, small-government ideology and neoliberal political economics have become part of the American Christian political identity..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_nationalism_in_the_United_States
------------------------------------------------
PROJECT 2025: COMMENTARY
Spencer Chretien | Jan 31, 2023
https://www.heritage.org/conservatism/commentary/project-2025
------------------------------------------------
PROJECT 2025'S "MANDATE FOR LEADERSHIP: THE CONSERVATIVE PROMISE"
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24088042-project-2025s-mandate-for-leade...
------------------------------------------------
PROJECT 2025 TRACKER
"What is Project 2025?"
"Project 2025 is a comprehensive conservative policy blueprint developed by The Heritage Foundation and supported by an alliance of over 100 conservative organizations. It provides a detailed roadmap for transforming the federal government and implementing conservative policies in a future Republican presidential administration."
"Key Components
The initiative is built on four main pillars: a nearly 900-page policy guide called “Mandate for Leadership 2025,” a personnel database to identify conservative candidates for government positions, a “Presidential Administration Academy” for training future administration officials, and a 180-day action playbook for immediate implementation.
"Policy Areas
Project 2025 proposes significant changes across nearly all areas of government, including restructuring federal agencies, immigration and border policies, reproductive rights, LGBTQ+ protections, law enforcement, economic regulation, and social programs. The plan emphasizes reducing the size of the federal government, centralizing executive power, and implementing traditional conservative values."
"Different Perspectives
Supporters argue that Project 2025:
Provides clear, actionable plans for efficient governance
Restores traditional conservative principles and values
Reduces bureaucratic inefficiency and government overreach
Strengthens executive authority to implement unified policies"
"Critics warn that Project 2025:
Threatens democratic institutions and checks and balances
Politicizes the civil service and law enforcement
Imposes extreme social policies that limit individual rights
Risks undermining essential government programs and protections"
"This tracker aims to provide objective monitoring of which Project 2025 proposals are being implemented, without advocating for or against specific policies. Our goal is to increase transparency and public awareness of policy changes.We encourage users to research multiple sources and form their own opinions."
https://www.project2025.observer/en
{margd:check out bar graphs in the status report!}
138John5918
>136 GandalfTheGreen:
Thanks for that. Can't say I disagree with much of it. Mahatma Gandhi is reported to have said, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ”, and indeed he drew the inspiration for a great deal of his philosophy of nonviolence from Christ. I think it's unikely I would call you a heretic. I respect your beliefs and thank you for respecting mine. I wish Christians would respect each other's differing interpretations.
>137 margd: some "conservative" Catholics have joined some "conservative" Evangelists & Pentecostalists in foisting their beliefs on the rest of us, via the Christian Nationalist movement and especially, Project 2025
I think this is indeed the issue. The "conservative"/"progressive" divide is probably greater than the Catholic-Protestant-Orthodox divides these days, and it is also dividing churches internally. In toxic online "culture wars" it seems that right wing populist politics has now become the central tenet of faith and that Christ, the bible and the longstanding traditions and praxis of Christianity (which include love, mercy and charity) are being warped and co-opted to fit those politics.
Thanks for that. Can't say I disagree with much of it. Mahatma Gandhi is reported to have said, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ”, and indeed he drew the inspiration for a great deal of his philosophy of nonviolence from Christ. I think it's unikely I would call you a heretic. I respect your beliefs and thank you for respecting mine. I wish Christians would respect each other's differing interpretations.
>137 margd: some "conservative" Catholics have joined some "conservative" Evangelists & Pentecostalists in foisting their beliefs on the rest of us, via the Christian Nationalist movement and especially, Project 2025
I think this is indeed the issue. The "conservative"/"progressive" divide is probably greater than the Catholic-Protestant-Orthodox divides these days, and it is also dividing churches internally. In toxic online "culture wars" it seems that right wing populist politics has now become the central tenet of faith and that Christ, the bible and the longstanding traditions and praxis of Christianity (which include love, mercy and charity) are being warped and co-opted to fit those politics.
139TheToadRevoltof84
>136 GandalfTheGreen:
You came here to insult my God and myself. This was all due to the fact I apologized for entering into a conversation that I had no reason to respond to. Yes, this is a sign of a problem that you have, not me. You tracked me down to make me pay for not worshipping your insight and rejecting it outright.
I believe John espouses beliefs that Catholics do not hold, and in fact he will just tell you that what you're saying is fine and good and that it's okay to bugger your neighbor and his wife if that's who you are or eat them if your called to do so. So no, it's not Catholic v. Protestant, it's his direct hatred of our God's word that annoys me.
You have not come here to discuss Christianity, though. If you want an honest response, if you truly believe something in your heart, then it's probably fine. But, if you are intentionally committing a sin in direct contradiction with the Bible, you probably do not love God. There's a difference, John's not ignorant, he just wants everyone to love each other and doesn't understand that self destruction is not love. I don't think you care enough about anything but your own condition which means those associated with you and how you're perceived...
Your story is on par with 75% of the U.S., just because you grew up in a church going home doesn't mean you had good reason to believe any of it. I don't think your efforts are in earnest or you had the care or wisdom during your youth to understand the Bible. Nobody does. It's all spiritual at that point.
You came here to insult my God and myself. This was all due to the fact I apologized for entering into a conversation that I had no reason to respond to. Yes, this is a sign of a problem that you have, not me. You tracked me down to make me pay for not worshipping your insight and rejecting it outright.
I believe John espouses beliefs that Catholics do not hold, and in fact he will just tell you that what you're saying is fine and good and that it's okay to bugger your neighbor and his wife if that's who you are or eat them if your called to do so. So no, it's not Catholic v. Protestant, it's his direct hatred of our God's word that annoys me.
You have not come here to discuss Christianity, though. If you want an honest response, if you truly believe something in your heart, then it's probably fine. But, if you are intentionally committing a sin in direct contradiction with the Bible, you probably do not love God. There's a difference, John's not ignorant, he just wants everyone to love each other and doesn't understand that self destruction is not love. I don't think you care enough about anything but your own condition which means those associated with you and how you're perceived...
Your story is on par with 75% of the U.S., just because you grew up in a church going home doesn't mean you had good reason to believe any of it. I don't think your efforts are in earnest or you had the care or wisdom during your youth to understand the Bible. Nobody does. It's all spiritual at that point.
141John5918
>140 brone:
Not sure what you mean by that. I've posted quite a few positive articles about the 1,700th anniversary of the Council of Nicaea, and all the events which are taking place as part of it. Pope Leo is amongst those who have said that the Nicene Creed unites Christians, and I certainly agree. JD Vance is a Catholic so there's no reason why he shouldn't recite the Nicene Creed publicly, as he does every Sunday at mass.
Not sure what you mean by that. I've posted quite a few positive articles about the 1,700th anniversary of the Council of Nicaea, and all the events which are taking place as part of it. Pope Leo is amongst those who have said that the Nicene Creed unites Christians, and I certainly agree. JD Vance is a Catholic so there's no reason why he shouldn't recite the Nicene Creed publicly, as he does every Sunday at mass.
142TheToadRevoltof84
>141 John5918:
Maybe brone means that you complain about Vance~Conservative~Republican~MAGA rhetoric. Is this the rhetoric you wish to remove from the political sphere?
Maybe brone means that you complain about Vance~Conservative~Republican~MAGA rhetoric. Is this the rhetoric you wish to remove from the political sphere?
143John5918
>142 TheToadRevoltof84:
I disagree with JD Vance's political rhetoric. I don't disagree with the Nicene Creed.
I disagree with JD Vance's political rhetoric. I don't disagree with the Nicene Creed.
144TheToadRevoltof84
Okay. If you'd like to provide an example of what you don't like, maybe we can discuss this.
145John5918
>144 TheToadRevoltof84:
I have no interest in discussing JD Vance. It wasn't me who brought his name up. Another poster for some reason linked my name with his in >140 brone:. But generally he is considered hard right on the political spectrum, what you refer to in >142 TheToadRevoltof84: as "Vance~Conservative~Republican~MAGA", whereas I would place myself somewhere left of centre, so clearly we would disagree on a number of political issues which are discussed ad nauseam on the Pro and Con group of LT, where my political views are no secret. We don't disagree on the Nicene Creed, which >140 brone: seemed to say was a point I "complain about".
I have no interest in discussing JD Vance. It wasn't me who brought his name up. Another poster for some reason linked my name with his in >140 brone:. But generally he is considered hard right on the political spectrum, what you refer to in >142 TheToadRevoltof84: as "Vance~Conservative~Republican~MAGA", whereas I would place myself somewhere left of centre, so clearly we would disagree on a number of political issues which are discussed ad nauseam on the Pro and Con group of LT, where my political views are no secret. We don't disagree on the Nicene Creed, which >140 brone: seemed to say was a point I "complain about".
146TheToadRevoltof84
>145 John5918:
Fair enough. You said you don't like his political rhetoric, so I thought maybe him being a "Toxic Christian", etc... was on topic. I thought maybe you knew of something that he said that you didn't like, since you aren't opposed to the Nicene Creed. I'm okay with your dislike if you are.
Fair enough. You said you don't like his political rhetoric, so I thought maybe him being a "Toxic Christian", etc... was on topic. I thought maybe you knew of something that he said that you didn't like, since you aren't opposed to the Nicene Creed. I'm okay with your dislike if you are.
147John5918
Christianity and the UK far right: churches must stand up to the false prophets of division (Guardian)
Symbols of Christian nationalism were prominent at last Saturday’s ‘unite the kingdom’ march. Their deployment had little to do with religious faith... Christian nationalism is already a force in the United States, and has played a defining role in European culture wars in countries such as Poland and Hungary. At last Saturday’s rally the striking proliferation of wooden crosses and flags bearing Christian slogans suggest an ominous and rising influence on the British far right... The secular co-opting of Christian identity to incite racial intolerance and Islamophobia has a track record on these shores. In 2009, the archbishops Rowan Williams and John Sentamu publicly admonished the British National party for using the language of faith “to foster fear”. But it used to be a relatively fringe pursuit. The rise of Reform, and the embedding of the far right within a broader revolt against mainstream politics, suggests that we are in new territory. As anti-migrant sentiment in Britain is both normalised and radicalised, figures such as Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, also known as Tommy Robinson, are successfully adopting the Viktor Orbán playbook, casting themselves as defenders of a Christian country under existential threat from outsiders. The crosses, Bible verses and prayers on display at the rally – like the Saint George’s flags appearing in streets across the country – placed a patina of false piety on a nativist message brimming with hostility towards the multicultural reality of modern Britain. In academic literature, the use of Christianity as a cultural dividing line has been aptly characterised as “Christianism” – an aggressive and exclusionary assertion of “belonging” that need not have any connection with actual religious belief...
the Church of England... must explore ways to assert itself against such perversions of the gospel message of inclusion and compassion for the stranger. One key to that may lie at grassroots level, where church and interfaith groups are often at the heart of initiatives aimed at enhancing social cohesion and wellbeing. In a statement issued prior to last Saturday’s march, the Bishop of Edmonton observed that “every day, in our churches and on our streets, we see a very different city to the one that the marchers portray”. By embodying an ecumenical sense of neighbourliness, local churches can help counter the far right’s pseudo-Christian posturing...
148margd
Cardinal Dolan calls the late Charlie Kirk 'a modern-day St. Paul.' I'm not making this up.
John Grosso | September 19, 2025
"This guy {Charlie Kirk} is a modern-day St. Paul," Cardinal Timothy Dolan {archbishop of New York} said on cable news. "He was a missionary, he's an evangelist, he's a hero. He's one I think that knew what Jesus meant when he said, 'The truth will set you free.'"
"... Any reflection on the legacy of Kirk cannot gloss over the pain and suffering that Kirk inflicted on innumerable people through his harsh, divisive and combative rhetoric. ... we cannot ignore his racism, sexism and xenophobia... Kirk repeatedly questioned the role of the pope as an institution and rejected the primacy of the papacy as recently as January 2025."
"... To prelates seeking the adulation of the MAGA faithful, it is not enough to condemn Kirk's murder; one must elevate him to martyrdom by celebrating all of his words and deeds. For the Catholic right, apparently, even that is not enough; Kirk must be canonized among the pantheon of Catholicism's greatest saints, and put into AI pictures next to Jesus and Rev. Martin Luther King Jr."
"Dolan is not the only prelate to speak so highly of Kirk..."
"...Why can't we say that Kirk was a complicated man who held reprehensible views while condemning his brutal public execution? Why can't we say that his Christianity was clearly important to him — but that it was also profoundly flawed?"
"Kirk is not a modern-day St. Paul. The only thing that such myth-making achieves is fomenting resentment, curtailing dialogue, and stifling action to otherwise prevent this tragedy from happening again."
https://www.ncronline.org/opinion/cardinal-dolan-calls-late-charlie-kirk-modern-...
John Grosso | September 19, 2025
"This guy {Charlie Kirk} is a modern-day St. Paul," Cardinal Timothy Dolan {archbishop of New York} said on cable news. "He was a missionary, he's an evangelist, he's a hero. He's one I think that knew what Jesus meant when he said, 'The truth will set you free.'"
"... Any reflection on the legacy of Kirk cannot gloss over the pain and suffering that Kirk inflicted on innumerable people through his harsh, divisive and combative rhetoric. ... we cannot ignore his racism, sexism and xenophobia... Kirk repeatedly questioned the role of the pope as an institution and rejected the primacy of the papacy as recently as January 2025."
"... To prelates seeking the adulation of the MAGA faithful, it is not enough to condemn Kirk's murder; one must elevate him to martyrdom by celebrating all of his words and deeds. For the Catholic right, apparently, even that is not enough; Kirk must be canonized among the pantheon of Catholicism's greatest saints, and put into AI pictures next to Jesus and Rev. Martin Luther King Jr."
"Dolan is not the only prelate to speak so highly of Kirk..."
"...Why can't we say that Kirk was a complicated man who held reprehensible views while condemning his brutal public execution? Why can't we say that his Christianity was clearly important to him — but that it was also profoundly flawed?"
"Kirk is not a modern-day St. Paul. The only thing that such myth-making achieves is fomenting resentment, curtailing dialogue, and stifling action to otherwise prevent this tragedy from happening again."
https://www.ncronline.org/opinion/cardinal-dolan-calls-late-charlie-kirk-modern-...
150John5918
>149 brone: Dick Durban Illinois senator
As a non-American I had never heard of Dick Durban so I looked him up. Reading through a long list of his political views it seems to me that apart from his measured support for a woman's freedom to choose abortion ("I still oppose abortion and would try my best to convince any woman in my family to carry the baby to term. But I believe that ultimately the decision must be made by the woman, her doctor, her family, and her conscience" as he said in the Chicago Tribune in 2007) and his support for the US invasion of Afghanistan his political views generally align with Catholic Social Doctrine. He made some very good interventions on a number of issues which I have followed, including conflicts in Darfur, Myanmar, Iraq and Palestine, control of small arms and light weapons, immigration, and health care in Africa. Like all human beings (yes, even you and me, and not excluding Charles Kirk who is currently being lionised by the right wing after his tragic murder which we all condemn) he is a complex and flawed individual, but taking his life as a whole I don't see why anyone should object to Cardinal Cupich giving him a lifetime achievement award. Born in 1944, Durban is not a "boomer", incidentally.
As a non-American I had never heard of Dick Durban so I looked him up. Reading through a long list of his political views it seems to me that apart from his measured support for a woman's freedom to choose abortion ("I still oppose abortion and would try my best to convince any woman in my family to carry the baby to term. But I believe that ultimately the decision must be made by the woman, her doctor, her family, and her conscience" as he said in the Chicago Tribune in 2007) and his support for the US invasion of Afghanistan his political views generally align with Catholic Social Doctrine. He made some very good interventions on a number of issues which I have followed, including conflicts in Darfur, Myanmar, Iraq and Palestine, control of small arms and light weapons, immigration, and health care in Africa. Like all human beings (yes, even you and me, and not excluding Charles Kirk who is currently being lionised by the right wing after his tragic murder which we all condemn) he is a complex and flawed individual, but taking his life as a whole I don't see why anyone should object to Cardinal Cupich giving him a lifetime achievement award. Born in 1944, Durban is not a "boomer", incidentally.
151margd
>148 margd: contd.
Outgoing NYC Cardinal Dolan Faces Unprecedented Catholic Backlash After Comparing Kirk to St. Paul
Christopher Hale | Sep 21, 2025
"... For an American cardinal to compare Kirk to one of Christianity’s greatest saints has prompted fierce pushback from clergy and laity alike ...
... While {Pope Leo XIV} hasn’t commented directly on Kirk’s assasination (which has angered some in MAGA world), the Holy See Press Office confirmed that the pope is “holding Charlie Kirk and his family in prayer,” and that he “expressed concern about political violence” while urging people to “refrain from rhetoric and instrumentalization that lead to polarization rather than dialogue.” ..."
https://www.thelettersfromleo.com/p/outgoing-nyc-cardinal-dolan-faces
Outgoing NYC Cardinal Dolan Faces Unprecedented Catholic Backlash After Comparing Kirk to St. Paul
Christopher Hale | Sep 21, 2025
"... For an American cardinal to compare Kirk to one of Christianity’s greatest saints has prompted fierce pushback from clergy and laity alike ...
... While {Pope Leo XIV} hasn’t commented directly on Kirk’s assasination (which has angered some in MAGA world), the Holy See Press Office confirmed that the pope is “holding Charlie Kirk and his family in prayer,” and that he “expressed concern about political violence” while urging people to “refrain from rhetoric and instrumentalization that lead to polarization rather than dialogue.” ..."
https://www.thelettersfromleo.com/p/outgoing-nyc-cardinal-dolan-faces
154John5918
The US veers toward Christian nationalism (CNN)
Former Archbishop of Canterbury among Church leaders concerned by ‘misuse of Christianity’ at ‘Unite the Kingdom’ rally (Tablet)
It should be very clear that "Christian nationalism" is not Christian; it is a right wing secular political ideology which has co-opted a particular brand of Christianity.
Americans are used to hearing about the tradition of separating church and state, but the two are increasingly fused in President Donald Trump’s administration... Trump officials said God is on their side as they go after their political enemies... Christian nationalism is the concept — rejected by many scholars — that the US was formed as a Christian nation and that Christianity should imbue its laws. Many Trump administration actions have blurred the lines between church and state... The Public Religion Research Institute has tried in recent years to gauge Christian nationalism and how it is spreading in the US. In 2024, it estimated that about 30% of Americans would qualify as either adherents of or sympathizers to Christian nationalism, according to their definition, including a majority of Republicans... In many blue states, less than a quarter of residents either adhere to or sympathize with Christian nationalism, according to PRRI, which means a large portion of the country also does not share their philosophy about the role of Christianity in the government.
Former Archbishop of Canterbury among Church leaders concerned by ‘misuse of Christianity’ at ‘Unite the Kingdom’ rally (Tablet)
Church leaders said in an open letter they are ‘deeply concerned’ by ‘co-opting of Christian symbols, particularly the cross’... They said, “As Christians from different theological and political backgrounds we stand together against the misuse of Christianity. The cross is the ultimate sign of sacrifice for the other. Jesus calls us to love both our neighbours and our enemies and to welcome the stranger. Any co-opting or corrupting of the Christian faith to exclude others is unacceptable”...
It should be very clear that "Christian nationalism" is not Christian; it is a right wing secular political ideology which has co-opted a particular brand of Christianity.
155John5918
>152 brone:
I think that post sums up one of the problems of Christian nationalism, namely that it wishes to impose a theocracy on a pluralistic secular nation. I've lived under a theocracy, in my case a Muslim one, and I see the dangers of Islamic, Hindu and Jewish theocracies in the world. I certainly don't wish to see a Christian theocracy added to that volatile and deadly mix.
It also addresses one of the differences in approach on abortion. I suspect most Christians are against abortion. I certainly am, and some of your high profile Christian US politicians including Durban and former President Biden have said so very publicly. But in a pluralistic secular democracy one has to live with the views of the majority, while still doing whatever one can to change or moderate it through thoughtful advocacy and support mechanisms to reduce the number of abortions, including making sex education and family planning more accessible. It also has to ensure that there is adequate and ongoing social, medical, educational, financial, housing, mental health and other provision for single parents. One also has to be aware of the deaths of both mother and foetus caused by "back street" abortions; making it illegal doesn't make it disappear, it simply makes it more dangerous. It would be nice if Christians could agree to disagree on the methods of their opposition to abortion and work in parallel instead of attacking each other, but unfortunately "Christian nationalism" thrives on division and culture war.
I think that post sums up one of the problems of Christian nationalism, namely that it wishes to impose a theocracy on a pluralistic secular nation. I've lived under a theocracy, in my case a Muslim one, and I see the dangers of Islamic, Hindu and Jewish theocracies in the world. I certainly don't wish to see a Christian theocracy added to that volatile and deadly mix.
It also addresses one of the differences in approach on abortion. I suspect most Christians are against abortion. I certainly am, and some of your high profile Christian US politicians including Durban and former President Biden have said so very publicly. But in a pluralistic secular democracy one has to live with the views of the majority, while still doing whatever one can to change or moderate it through thoughtful advocacy and support mechanisms to reduce the number of abortions, including making sex education and family planning more accessible. It also has to ensure that there is adequate and ongoing social, medical, educational, financial, housing, mental health and other provision for single parents. One also has to be aware of the deaths of both mother and foetus caused by "back street" abortions; making it illegal doesn't make it disappear, it simply makes it more dangerous. It would be nice if Christians could agree to disagree on the methods of their opposition to abortion and work in parallel instead of attacking each other, but unfortunately "Christian nationalism" thrives on division and culture war.
157TheToadRevoltof84
>156 brone:
Johntholicism, is indeed the most flexible religion available, even up to supporting the comments of those that want the blood of the innocent or conservative individuals. Get, on, the, wagon! DEI, Women's Freedom of Choice and God are one in the same for the Marxists getting baptized in their blood... The minimalization and utter desecration of God's word is an appalling scandal that our dear friend seems very unconcerned about.
Johntholicism, is indeed the most flexible religion available, even up to supporting the comments of those that want the blood of the innocent or conservative individuals. Get, on, the, wagon! DEI, Women's Freedom of Choice and God are one in the same for the Marxists getting baptized in their blood... The minimalization and utter desecration of God's word is an appalling scandal that our dear friend seems very unconcerned about.
158John5918
>156 brone:
Of course one doesn't worry too much about "little splinter groups" until they appear to be trying to take over by fair means or foul a country which is probably still one of the top three most militaristic nations in the world and turn it into a theocracy. Then the rest of us do worry a bit.
As for Bishop Campbell's essay, you are correct in saying it was removed from the USCCB website because it hadn't gone through the normal review process (link), which an insider in USCCB once told me could take six months or more, with bishops, theologians, lawyers and others all having their say. I understand it was a personal reflection by an African-American bishop in which he criticised the recent conservative backlash against DEI, which has included broad ideological shifts away from minority recognition. "The current government administration that we have is working to separate us from one another," Campbell wrote in the now-hidden document, "not just migrants, but many, especially people of color, who have been denied for far too long, equal opportunities in education, social recognition, and economic growth, truly denying the DIGNITY OF EVERY HUMAN BEING!" Apparently some "conservatives" criticised it for being too "progressive", while many would consider it to be simply a legitimate reflection on how gospel values and Catholic Social Doctrine should be applied in current circumstances, a case of "reading the signs of the times", as Catholic doctrine puts it (Gaudium et Spes, 4).
The full text can be found here and would have got virtually no publicity and circulation if "conservatives" hadn't given it such a boost; an own goal, perhaps? It's fairly unremarkable, a play on the Latin word for God (Dei) and the US acronym DEI, and Bishop Campbell is not wrong when he argues that Diversity, Equity and Inclusion are Godly values within Christianity.
>157 TheToadRevoltof84:
Actually I am quite worried about the "appalling scandal" of the "minimalisation and utter desecration of God's word", which is one of the reasons I am concerned about "Christian nationalism" and other secular political ideologies which try to co-opt God's word.
Of course one doesn't worry too much about "little splinter groups" until they appear to be trying to take over by fair means or foul a country which is probably still one of the top three most militaristic nations in the world and turn it into a theocracy. Then the rest of us do worry a bit.
As for Bishop Campbell's essay, you are correct in saying it was removed from the USCCB website because it hadn't gone through the normal review process (link), which an insider in USCCB once told me could take six months or more, with bishops, theologians, lawyers and others all having their say. I understand it was a personal reflection by an African-American bishop in which he criticised the recent conservative backlash against DEI, which has included broad ideological shifts away from minority recognition. "The current government administration that we have is working to separate us from one another," Campbell wrote in the now-hidden document, "not just migrants, but many, especially people of color, who have been denied for far too long, equal opportunities in education, social recognition, and economic growth, truly denying the DIGNITY OF EVERY HUMAN BEING!" Apparently some "conservatives" criticised it for being too "progressive", while many would consider it to be simply a legitimate reflection on how gospel values and Catholic Social Doctrine should be applied in current circumstances, a case of "reading the signs of the times", as Catholic doctrine puts it (Gaudium et Spes, 4).
The full text can be found here and would have got virtually no publicity and circulation if "conservatives" hadn't given it such a boost; an own goal, perhaps? It's fairly unremarkable, a play on the Latin word for God (Dei) and the US acronym DEI, and Bishop Campbell is not wrong when he argues that Diversity, Equity and Inclusion are Godly values within Christianity.
>157 TheToadRevoltof84:
Actually I am quite worried about the "appalling scandal" of the "minimalisation and utter desecration of God's word", which is one of the reasons I am concerned about "Christian nationalism" and other secular political ideologies which try to co-opt God's word.
159TheToadRevoltof84
>158 John5918:
Can you please send me a group that claims to be Christian Nationalists, so that I can do research on what they're actually saying?
Can you please send me a group that claims to be Christian Nationalists, so that I can do research on what they're actually saying?
160John5918
>159 TheToadRevoltof84:
No I can't. I have no idea whether they claim that label or not (just as most fascists and neo-Nazis would not claim the label fascist or Nazi) nor whether they are in any sense organised as a single group, but this thread (and others) are full of examples. Try researching on what Trump, Kirk, MAGA, etc are actually saying.
No I can't. I have no idea whether they claim that label or not (just as most fascists and neo-Nazis would not claim the label fascist or Nazi) nor whether they are in any sense organised as a single group, but this thread (and others) are full of examples. Try researching on what Trump, Kirk, MAGA, etc are actually saying.
161TheToadRevoltof84
>160 John5918:
Actually, the KKK and neo-Nazis usually claim their flags. The Aryan Freedom Network was one such group I was able to find online, with several linked orgs.
https://white-power.org/links/
There's also black power groups, etc. But I can't seem to find anything, except a Christian's against Christian Nationalism group, online. It seems to me that it's a government propaganda action to fear monger against evangelical types.
If you could help me out, because it seems like you must have done extensive research, I'd like to find a group and see what it is that drives you to so much disdain of these Christians.
Actually, the KKK and neo-Nazis usually claim their flags. The Aryan Freedom Network was one such group I was able to find online, with several linked orgs.
https://white-power.org/links/
There's also black power groups, etc. But I can't seem to find anything, except a Christian's against Christian Nationalism group, online. It seems to me that it's a government propaganda action to fear monger against evangelical types.
If you could help me out, because it seems like you must have done extensive research, I'd like to find a group and see what it is that drives you to so much disdain of these Christians.
162John5918
>161 TheToadRevoltof84:
As I said, just follow links on this thread and its predecessors, and listen to the policies expressed by Trump, Vance and other MAGA types. That sums up Christian Nationalism even if its proponents are too ashamed to be identified as such.
As I said, just follow links on this thread and its predecessors, and listen to the policies expressed by Trump, Vance and other MAGA types. That sums up Christian Nationalism even if its proponents are too ashamed to be identified as such.
163TheToadRevoltof84
>162 John5918:
Okay. Could you guide me to the link that you think is best representative of this? I will start with that one.
It looks like you may be pointing at Douglas Wilson as your leader of this Christian Nationalism? Per the most recent CNN link?
Okay. Could you guide me to the link that you think is best representative of this? I will start with that one.
It looks like you may be pointing at Douglas Wilson as your leader of this Christian Nationalism? Per the most recent CNN link?
164TheToadRevoltof84
>150 John5918:
Baby Boomers started, according to some lists as 1946. There's Boomer I and Boomer II... anyway, many studies show that there's often many similarities and swings in generational behavior and thought when it comes to ends and beginnings. So, Durbin effectively could be a "Boomer".
This guy had a few things wrong but here's some interesting snippets.
Voted NO on banning human cloning. (Feb 1998)
Voted NO on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008)
Voted NO on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion. (Mar 2008)
Voted NO on restricting UN funding for population control policies. (Mar 2009)
Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)
Voted NO on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime. (Mar 2004)
Comprehensive sex ed for sexually-active adolescents. (Mar 2013)
Voted NO on killing restrictions on violent videos to minors. (May 1999)
some interesting and hypocritical things occur throughout the list, regarding wars and handouts...
https://www.ontheissues.org/senate/richard_durbin.htm
Strangely enough, our Johntholic friend, if you read through this, you wouldn't be allowed to participate in receiving the Eucharist, either!
On Friday, Bishop Paprocki expressed “shock” over the news of the award, explaining that Durbin is prohibited from receiving the Eucharist in the Springfield diocese, where he resides, because of his advocacy for legal protection for abortion.
“Given Senator Durbin’s long and consistent record of supporting legal abortion — including opposing legislation to protect children who survive failed abortions - this decision risks causing grave scandal, confusing the faithful about the Church’s unequivocal teaching on the sanctity of human life,” Paprocki said.
“Honoring a public figure who has actively worked to expand and entrench the right to end innocent human life in the womb undermines the very concept of human dignity and solidarity that the award purports to uphold.”
Paprocki voiced concern that the decision to honor Durbin runs contrary to a June 2004 statement from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, which says that “Catholic institutions should not honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles. They should not be given awards, honors or platforms which would suggest support for their actions.”
He added that the award appears to violate Chicago’s own archdiocesan policy, which prohibits “awards or honors” to “individuals or organizations whose public position is in opposition to the fundamental moral principles of the Catholic Church.”
To explain its policy, the archdiocesan policy manual notes that “Many organizations and presenters that do ‘good work’ in some areas are misguided in others, particularly in the areas of human life and sexuality. In the past some honorees, speakers or organizations presenting at gatherings for Catholic organizations have publicly advocated viewpoints that are in opposition to the faith, causing confusion and division within the Church.”...
While he initially supported restrictions on abortion, he became in the U.S. Senate a supporter of Medicaid funding for abortion, and has opposed the prospect of legal restrictions on the practice.
In 2007, the senator said that he personally opposes abortion, but believes decisions about the practice must be made by a woman and her doctor.
https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/after-statement-from-paprocki-cardinal
Baby Boomers started, according to some lists as 1946. There's Boomer I and Boomer II... anyway, many studies show that there's often many similarities and swings in generational behavior and thought when it comes to ends and beginnings. So, Durbin effectively could be a "Boomer".
This guy had a few things wrong but here's some interesting snippets.
Voted NO on banning human cloning. (Feb 1998)
Voted NO on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008)
Voted NO on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion. (Mar 2008)
Voted NO on restricting UN funding for population control policies. (Mar 2009)
Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)
Voted NO on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime. (Mar 2004)
Comprehensive sex ed for sexually-active adolescents. (Mar 2013)
Voted NO on killing restrictions on violent videos to minors. (May 1999)
some interesting and hypocritical things occur throughout the list, regarding wars and handouts...
https://www.ontheissues.org/senate/richard_durbin.htm
Strangely enough, our Johntholic friend, if you read through this, you wouldn't be allowed to participate in receiving the Eucharist, either!
On Friday, Bishop Paprocki expressed “shock” over the news of the award, explaining that Durbin is prohibited from receiving the Eucharist in the Springfield diocese, where he resides, because of his advocacy for legal protection for abortion.
“Given Senator Durbin’s long and consistent record of supporting legal abortion — including opposing legislation to protect children who survive failed abortions - this decision risks causing grave scandal, confusing the faithful about the Church’s unequivocal teaching on the sanctity of human life,” Paprocki said.
“Honoring a public figure who has actively worked to expand and entrench the right to end innocent human life in the womb undermines the very concept of human dignity and solidarity that the award purports to uphold.”
Paprocki voiced concern that the decision to honor Durbin runs contrary to a June 2004 statement from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, which says that “Catholic institutions should not honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles. They should not be given awards, honors or platforms which would suggest support for their actions.”
He added that the award appears to violate Chicago’s own archdiocesan policy, which prohibits “awards or honors” to “individuals or organizations whose public position is in opposition to the fundamental moral principles of the Catholic Church.”
To explain its policy, the archdiocesan policy manual notes that “Many organizations and presenters that do ‘good work’ in some areas are misguided in others, particularly in the areas of human life and sexuality. In the past some honorees, speakers or organizations presenting at gatherings for Catholic organizations have publicly advocated viewpoints that are in opposition to the faith, causing confusion and division within the Church.”...
While he initially supported restrictions on abortion, he became in the U.S. Senate a supporter of Medicaid funding for abortion, and has opposed the prospect of legal restrictions on the practice.
In 2007, the senator said that he personally opposes abortion, but believes decisions about the practice must be made by a woman and her doctor.
https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/after-statement-from-paprocki-cardinal
166TheToadRevoltof84
>147 John5918:
Do we know that everyone collectively shows up for the same exact reason, in defense of the same exact thing? Is holding up Christian symbols a problem for you, John? Is this the vile act that they committed? A lot of things are just said in this article, there's really no examination of the attendees...they just say things and presumptuously accuse all attendees of doing whatever they want to say they are doing or believing.
This, again, is painting people as hateful with really no evidence. Your fear of this "Christian Nationalism" seems like a conspiracy theory. If indeed we were to meet an extreme Christian, they would be closer to Jesus not further from. A Christian that behaves in the fake paintings you post, are not doing so under the direction of Christianity. (*If they are really doing anything aside of existing in a space and attending events).
You are helping persecute Christians.
Do we know that everyone collectively shows up for the same exact reason, in defense of the same exact thing? Is holding up Christian symbols a problem for you, John? Is this the vile act that they committed? A lot of things are just said in this article, there's really no examination of the attendees...they just say things and presumptuously accuse all attendees of doing whatever they want to say they are doing or believing.
This, again, is painting people as hateful with really no evidence. Your fear of this "Christian Nationalism" seems like a conspiracy theory. If indeed we were to meet an extreme Christian, they would be closer to Jesus not further from. A Christian that behaves in the fake paintings you post, are not doing so under the direction of Christianity. (*If they are really doing anything aside of existing in a space and attending events).
You are helping persecute Christians.
167TheToadRevoltof84
>162 John5918:
>163 TheToadRevoltof84:
Okay, so I started reading this wicked and horrific man and he proposes that we use the Bible as our guide. No, wonder, you hate, him! I didn't know much about him previously, but thanks to your suggestion, I may start reading his Blog! Someone need not know everything or be always right to be worthy of learning with/from. This is why Marxism doesn't work, supreme leaders must be right!
https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/race-realists-and...
>163 TheToadRevoltof84:
Okay, so I started reading this wicked and horrific man and he proposes that we use the Bible as our guide. No, wonder, you hate, him! I didn't know much about him previously, but thanks to your suggestion, I may start reading his Blog! Someone need not know everything or be always right to be worthy of learning with/from. This is why Marxism doesn't work, supreme leaders must be right!
https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/race-realists-and...
168John5918
Kirk assassination – the answer to hate is not hate (Tablet)
Misuse of religion for political purposes can be just as dangerous as the other way round. Despite its much vaunted “separation of Church and State”, both seem to be happening explosively in the United States in reaction to the murder of Charlie Kirk, a young and charismatic conservative Evangelical campaigner closely associated with Donald Trump’s Make America Great Again (Maga) movement... In eighteenth-century Britain and nineteenth-century America, Evangelicals drove the abolitionist movement forward; in the Industrial Revolution, they helped to bring about a long succession of Factory Acts to alleviate the condition of workers. What modern Evangelicalism in the United States lacks is a systematic critique of the nationalistic and quasi-racist political culture that Maga represents. If the US is experiencing another Great Awakening, which some believe the outpouring of grief over the killing of Kirk may be pointing to, it must acquire a sharper cutting edge. Charlie Kirk preached freedom of speech, but the reaction to his murder has triggered a crackdown on it. The contradiction may sooner or later undermine the whole project.
169TheToadRevoltof84
>168 John5918:
Dumb. "Misuse of religion for political purposes can be just as dangerous as the other way round." What is the other way around? The misuse of the political for religion? Government abuse is continuous, and these ignorant, slimy, and compulsive liars, can't figure that out. They're the ones doing the thing that they say the other side is doing. Generally, they support government control of everything for some reason. Likely to feel safe in the arms of their various love(s). They care nothing for God, and neither does anyone else, that is cudgeling those who speak of freedoms and wish to let God carry his domain to a final and truly just end.
The article lambasts, yet again their one true obsession, Donald Trump. Trump represents the Democrat party of the 1980's, which most of the US would embrace over the Marxist know-nothings of Harris-Biden, Biden-Harris. Evangelicals put hope that God would inspire MAGA, they put faith in God in the end if they're Christian. Quasi-Racist? By that, surely you mean the merit-based thinking or reverse of DEI. It's all just a way to throw in jabs and say Christianity is bad.
Why the constant posting of the same article under a different title? To pretend Christian Nationalism is a thing? It's generally just Christianity and you and yours do not seem to like Christianity. You never have answers though, only posts from your image makers believing all their tales no matter how tall and desperate and unprovable...only projection and cynical thinking.
Dumb. "Misuse of religion for political purposes can be just as dangerous as the other way round." What is the other way around? The misuse of the political for religion? Government abuse is continuous, and these ignorant, slimy, and compulsive liars, can't figure that out. They're the ones doing the thing that they say the other side is doing. Generally, they support government control of everything for some reason. Likely to feel safe in the arms of their various love(s). They care nothing for God, and neither does anyone else, that is cudgeling those who speak of freedoms and wish to let God carry his domain to a final and truly just end.
The article lambasts, yet again their one true obsession, Donald Trump. Trump represents the Democrat party of the 1980's, which most of the US would embrace over the Marxist know-nothings of Harris-Biden, Biden-Harris. Evangelicals put hope that God would inspire MAGA, they put faith in God in the end if they're Christian. Quasi-Racist? By that, surely you mean the merit-based thinking or reverse of DEI. It's all just a way to throw in jabs and say Christianity is bad.
Why the constant posting of the same article under a different title? To pretend Christian Nationalism is a thing? It's generally just Christianity and you and yours do not seem to like Christianity. You never have answers though, only posts from your image makers believing all their tales no matter how tall and desperate and unprovable...only projection and cynical thinking.
170TheToadRevoltof84
...The former first lady’s vile comments came two weeks to the day that Kirk was assassinated. Liberals, Democrats, and others on the Left portray white Christian Nationalists as bigoted, hateful people. As mentioned above, such inflammatory, hateful rhetoric toward white, Christian men has been happening for decades. It’s a lie that has been perpetuated and dominated popular culture. For example, Democratic Party strategist and President Clinton confidant James Carville called Christian nationalists “a bigger threat than Al Qaeda to this country” on HBO’s Real Time with Bill Maher.
These are the useful idiots of left-wing hate....
Last I checked, alleged Kirk assassin Tyler Robinson wasn’t a Christian nationalist. The last I checked, Joshua Jahn, the suspected shooter of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement facility in Dallas, wasn’t a Christian nationalist. The last I checked, Elias Rodriguez, who gunned down two Israeli Embassy staffers, wasn’t a Christian nationalist. The last I checked, Luigi Mangione, who murdered United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson in the streets of New York City, wasn’t a Christian nationalist. Last I checked, Thomas Matthew Crooks and Ryan Routh, the two men who tried to assassinate President Donald Trump, were not Christian nationalists.
But do you know what politics and principles many, if not all, of those mentioned above, did support and believe in? Today’s liberal, Democrat, left-wing ideology....
...Regardless of how one felt about his political beliefs, Kirk’s campus tours welcomed everyone. It did not forbid speech, it did not suppress opposing ideals, it welcomed all, regardless of the views one held. That, alone, is a stark contrast to the Left’s devotion and allegiance to suppressing and oppressing dissenting opinions. Kirk provided opportunities to speak to hateful, vile liberals, Democrats, and others on the Left who berated him and insulted him, but refused to debate him. This is what Christian nationalism is.
Ultimately, his inclusion and welcoming of diversity of thought led to his execution.
Christian Nationalists, however, would contend they are compassionate believers in Jesus Christ's teachings. They champion lessons such as: Blessed are the meek; blessed are the merciful; blessed are those who seek justice; blessed are the peacemakers; blessed are those persecuted for justice.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/christian-nationalism-charlie-kirk-and-th...
These are the useful idiots of left-wing hate....
Last I checked, alleged Kirk assassin Tyler Robinson wasn’t a Christian nationalist. The last I checked, Joshua Jahn, the suspected shooter of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement facility in Dallas, wasn’t a Christian nationalist. The last I checked, Elias Rodriguez, who gunned down two Israeli Embassy staffers, wasn’t a Christian nationalist. The last I checked, Luigi Mangione, who murdered United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson in the streets of New York City, wasn’t a Christian nationalist. Last I checked, Thomas Matthew Crooks and Ryan Routh, the two men who tried to assassinate President Donald Trump, were not Christian nationalists.
But do you know what politics and principles many, if not all, of those mentioned above, did support and believe in? Today’s liberal, Democrat, left-wing ideology....
...Regardless of how one felt about his political beliefs, Kirk’s campus tours welcomed everyone. It did not forbid speech, it did not suppress opposing ideals, it welcomed all, regardless of the views one held. That, alone, is a stark contrast to the Left’s devotion and allegiance to suppressing and oppressing dissenting opinions. Kirk provided opportunities to speak to hateful, vile liberals, Democrats, and others on the Left who berated him and insulted him, but refused to debate him. This is what Christian nationalism is.
Ultimately, his inclusion and welcoming of diversity of thought led to his execution.
Christian Nationalists, however, would contend they are compassionate believers in Jesus Christ's teachings. They champion lessons such as: Blessed are the meek; blessed are the merciful; blessed are those who seek justice; blessed are the peacemakers; blessed are those persecuted for justice.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/christian-nationalism-charlie-kirk-and-th...
171TheToadRevoltof84
>162 John5918:
I've searched high and low on this thread, and I can't really find anything against these heinous Christian Nationalists that garners the sort of fear mongering you keep clamoring on about. I'd like you to point me to some good evidence that these people are hateful. Even if you point me to one of your articles of choice so that I can research it...er else I'll have to call a spade a spade and neither of us should be able to discuss it further.
I've searched high and low on this thread, and I can't really find anything against these heinous Christian Nationalists that garners the sort of fear mongering you keep clamoring on about. I'd like you to point me to some good evidence that these people are hateful. Even if you point me to one of your articles of choice so that I can research it...er else I'll have to call a spade a spade and neither of us should be able to discuss it further.
173GandalfTheGreen
>171 TheToadRevoltof84: If you're seriously asking, there's a large amount of scientific and other such data supporting the widely understood threat that Christian nationalists pose to the United States.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jssr.12942
https://www.hsaj.org/articles/22898
https://prri.org/research/christian-nationalism-across-all-50-states-insights-fr...
https://www.brookings.edu/events/understanding-the-threat-of-white-christian-nat...
https://www.christiansagainstchristiannationalism.org/statement
https://michiganadvance.com/2023/09/15/white-christian-nationalism-threatens-u-s...
https://matrix.berkeley.edu/research-article/the-flag-and-the-cross-white-christ...
If you don't feel like reading all that, the gist is this: people are concerned because Christian nationalism, by definition, seeks to overthrow the peaceful, democratic government of the United States and replace it with a theocracy based on extremist perversions of God's Word. Many of the ideas these people seek to implement would be cruel, anti-American, threatening to women and children, and indeed threatening the very life of anyone who doesn't subscribe to their beliefs.
They're threatening to take over the country and kill or overpower any decent people. That seems pretty heinous to me, pal.
Also it's hilarious to those of us who are not believers to see so many of you 'Christians' so viciously attacking John, simply because he seems to be closest to following Jesus' actual words. I can certainly say that God would not approve of how you are treating your fellow believers, Brone and ToadRevolt. If more Christians were like John, Christianity would indeed be welcome in polite society. If more Christians were like you, Brone and ToadRevolt, well, there are many reasons that people are drifting away from the church, but the blatant hypocrisy and sheer lack of civility that you guys are displaying is very representative of what makes so many Americans reject the church.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jssr.12942
https://www.hsaj.org/articles/22898
https://prri.org/research/christian-nationalism-across-all-50-states-insights-fr...
https://www.brookings.edu/events/understanding-the-threat-of-white-christian-nat...
https://www.christiansagainstchristiannationalism.org/statement
https://michiganadvance.com/2023/09/15/white-christian-nationalism-threatens-u-s...
https://matrix.berkeley.edu/research-article/the-flag-and-the-cross-white-christ...
If you don't feel like reading all that, the gist is this: people are concerned because Christian nationalism, by definition, seeks to overthrow the peaceful, democratic government of the United States and replace it with a theocracy based on extremist perversions of God's Word. Many of the ideas these people seek to implement would be cruel, anti-American, threatening to women and children, and indeed threatening the very life of anyone who doesn't subscribe to their beliefs.
They're threatening to take over the country and kill or overpower any decent people. That seems pretty heinous to me, pal.
Also it's hilarious to those of us who are not believers to see so many of you 'Christians' so viciously attacking John, simply because he seems to be closest to following Jesus' actual words. I can certainly say that God would not approve of how you are treating your fellow believers, Brone and ToadRevolt. If more Christians were like John, Christianity would indeed be welcome in polite society. If more Christians were like you, Brone and ToadRevolt, well, there are many reasons that people are drifting away from the church, but the blatant hypocrisy and sheer lack of civility that you guys are displaying is very representative of what makes so many Americans reject the church.
174TheToadRevoltof84
>173 GandalfTheGreen:
As a scoffer with a seemingly convoluted idea of what the word evidence actually means, I don't believe I owe you a response other than to say your evidence is preposterous. Studies laced wholly presumptuous thought and opinions of the "harmful" ideas... Doesn't constitute evidence. Admittedly the first link was so silly, I didn't bother with any more, but I really have wasted enough time on lib links this week.
We treat John badly because either he's genuine in his false views or he's worse. John gets special treatment because he claims to believe in God. Your preference for his behavior is indeed further evidence of his malfeasance.
conversation online is not a great way to present anything but we actually feel for John. We are concerned about how willing he is to lie to make others like him. John should embrace rebuke.
As a scoffer with a seemingly convoluted idea of what the word evidence actually means, I don't believe I owe you a response other than to say your evidence is preposterous. Studies laced wholly presumptuous thought and opinions of the "harmful" ideas... Doesn't constitute evidence. Admittedly the first link was so silly, I didn't bother with any more, but I really have wasted enough time on lib links this week.
We treat John badly because either he's genuine in his false views or he's worse. John gets special treatment because he claims to believe in God. Your preference for his behavior is indeed further evidence of his malfeasance.
conversation online is not a great way to present anything but we actually feel for John. We are concerned about how willing he is to lie to make others like him. John should embrace rebuke.
175John5918
>173 GandalfTheGreen:
Thanks for these links. There have been several incarnations of the original "Toxic Christianity" thread dating back to 2018 and there are literally hundreds of other links if one looks back across these threads.
Thanks also for your comments on Christianity. One of the 2nd-3rd century Church fathers, Tertullian, wrote, "The heathen {read here 'non-Christian' in modern idiom} were wont to exclaim with astonishment: ‘Behold how these Christians love one another, and how they are ready to die for one another.’”* Apparently we are not making the same impression on non-Christians today! Mea culpa. We need to do better.
Perhaps serendipitously the short reading in today's Morning Prayer of the Catholic Church is from Ephesians 4:29-32: "No foul word should ever cross your lips; let your words be for the improvement of others, as occasion offers, and do good to your listeners; do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God who has marked you with his seal, ready for the day when we shall be set free. Any bitterness or bad temper or anger or shouting or abuse must be far removed from you -- as must every kind of malice. Be generous to one another, sympathetic, forgiving each other as readily as God forgave you in Christ". I've quoted this passage before in this LT group and I think it serves as good advice, and an ongoing challenge, to all of us.
* The Apology, Ch 39.
Thanks for these links. There have been several incarnations of the original "Toxic Christianity" thread dating back to 2018 and there are literally hundreds of other links if one looks back across these threads.
Thanks also for your comments on Christianity. One of the 2nd-3rd century Church fathers, Tertullian, wrote, "The heathen {read here 'non-Christian' in modern idiom} were wont to exclaim with astonishment: ‘Behold how these Christians love one another, and how they are ready to die for one another.’”* Apparently we are not making the same impression on non-Christians today! Mea culpa. We need to do better.
Perhaps serendipitously the short reading in today's Morning Prayer of the Catholic Church is from Ephesians 4:29-32: "No foul word should ever cross your lips; let your words be for the improvement of others, as occasion offers, and do good to your listeners; do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God who has marked you with his seal, ready for the day when we shall be set free. Any bitterness or bad temper or anger or shouting or abuse must be far removed from you -- as must every kind of malice. Be generous to one another, sympathetic, forgiving each other as readily as God forgave you in Christ". I've quoted this passage before in this LT group and I think it serves as good advice, and an ongoing challenge, to all of us.
* The Apology, Ch 39.
176TheToadRevoltof84
>175 John5918:
Those links aren't evidence of anything.
I really do feel bad for you. Be well John and enjoy the reward you choose.
Those links aren't evidence of anything.
I really do feel bad for you. Be well John and enjoy the reward you choose.
177TheToadRevoltof84
More on the evil Christian Nationalism, happened to appear in the wheel of death on Edge. Even if you don't agree with everything he's saying, I just find it hard to believe this is the most dangerous human in America.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/douglas-wilson-wants-the-u-s-to-be-a-christian...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/douglas-wilson-wants-the-u-s-to-be-a-christian...
179GandalfTheGreen
>175 John5918: For all that it's worth, which might not be much, I genuinely do believe that you bring much glory to your God's name with your conduct. I know little of Catholicism and often don't much care for what I do know, but I certainly believe that if there is indeed such a God in existence as you exercise so much faith in, He counts you amongst His followers. I have trouble believing that any God would look kindly on his followers acting in petty, uncivil ways. I hope my comments here aren't an intrusion, for though my faith has long lapsed my heart remains open and I feel a special kinship with the beliefs of my youth. I felt it was important to give encouragement to you; you seem steady in your faith but please know that there are always plenty of non-believers observing you and observing others professing Christian beliefs, and the things we see certainly have an effect on our feelings.
I was inspired to find a Bible verse reflecting what I said. Consider Philippians 2:15, "And that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, in which you shine as lights in the world."
Clearly it's not referring to God's followers being without sin or anything like that; instead I feel it shows God encouraging His followers to hold themselves to a higher standard of character and conduct. By extension, this brings further praise to God's name. Certainly words that some in this thread could reflect upon.
Have a good day, John. Best wishes
I was inspired to find a Bible verse reflecting what I said. Consider Philippians 2:15, "And that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, in which you shine as lights in the world."
Clearly it's not referring to God's followers being without sin or anything like that; instead I feel it shows God encouraging His followers to hold themselves to a higher standard of character and conduct. By extension, this brings further praise to God's name. Certainly words that some in this thread could reflect upon.
Have a good day, John. Best wishes
180John5918
>179 GandalfTheGreen:
Thanks for that. Much appreciated. I do feel that this thread has become unduly personalised. This level of ad hominem posting may well be against LT's Terms of Service, but more importantly it distracts from the actual issues under discussion, which of course is one of the aims of the ad hominem fallacy. I will be travelling for the next six weeks without my laptop and, while I will have some internet access, I probably won't be in a position to post much on LT, maybe only the occasional couple of sentences. No doubt the conversations will continue, but I won't be playing a very active role in them for a while. God bless you all.
Thanks for that. Much appreciated. I do feel that this thread has become unduly personalised. This level of ad hominem posting may well be against LT's Terms of Service, but more importantly it distracts from the actual issues under discussion, which of course is one of the aims of the ad hominem fallacy. I will be travelling for the next six weeks without my laptop and, while I will have some internet access, I probably won't be in a position to post much on LT, maybe only the occasional couple of sentences. No doubt the conversations will continue, but I won't be playing a very active role in them for a while. God bless you all.
181TheToadRevoltof84
>180 John5918:
Maybe the leftist leader of this site will assist in silencing me, again. It has happened before, I have caved to the abuse in the Professional Cons group and said awful things in retort to the scoffing. However, direct questions asking for some sort of real information and not some manipulated statistics about the violence of Christian Nationalists isn't much to ask from someone obsessed with demonizing a group.
Maybe the leftist leader of this site will assist in silencing me, again. It has happened before, I have caved to the abuse in the Professional Cons group and said awful things in retort to the scoffing. However, direct questions asking for some sort of real information and not some manipulated statistics about the violence of Christian Nationalists isn't much to ask from someone obsessed with demonizing a group.
183margd
>182 2wonderY: Wow.
Secretary of War Pete Hegseth @SecWar | 6:35 PM · Sep 20, 2025:
A prayer for Charlie, our warriors, and for our nation.
(00:41) https://x.com/secwar/status/1969530822127407323?s=46
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Defense Secretary Hegseth tests Constitution in Pentagon worship services
Jack Jenkins | 30 Sept 2025
"... In the edited clip, Hegseth — who prefers the title "Secretary of War" — is briefly seen reciting the Lord's Prayer as dramatic music swells. The Defense secretary's prayer then continues as a voice over and a montage begins: the screen is filled with images of fighter jets and missiles flying, paratroopers tumbling from planes, a waving American flag and finally Hegseth standing and saluting alongside President Donald Trump.
... Even in an administration that has made defending religion a core concern, Hegseth has stood out by publicly advocating his own brand of conservative Christianity — one tied to Idaho pastor and avowed Christian nationalist Doug Wilson.
Critics are now raising concerns that Hegseth, by linking his religion to the most powerful fighting force on the planet, may be running afoul of the U.S. Constitution. "This is more the behavior of someone who is running an ultra-conservative Christian, Seven Mountain Mandate, muscular Christianity, spiritual warfare group," said Rachel Laser, head of the group Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, referring to the Christian nationalist movement to gain control over seven key sectors of society — the "seven mountains"— including government.
... Hegseth, who bears tattoos of the Crusaders' Latin phrase "Deus Vult" ("God wills it') and "kafir" (an Arabic word often translated as "infidel"), belongs to the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches, a small denomination with a short and controversial history. Its co-founder, Doug Wilson, is a rising star on the right who advocates for a society in which non-Christians and even liberal Christians are barred from holding office. His writings have also been criticized as denigrating LGBTQ+ people and downplaying the atrocities of slavery, and he recently alleged "millions" of Muslim immigrants lack any "commitment to, or mechanism of, assimilation" into U.S. society..."
https://www.ncronline.org/news/defense-secretary-hegseth-tests-constitution-pent...
Secretary of War Pete Hegseth @SecWar | 6:35 PM · Sep 20, 2025:
A prayer for Charlie, our warriors, and for our nation.
(00:41) https://x.com/secwar/status/1969530822127407323?s=46
------------------------------------------------
Defense Secretary Hegseth tests Constitution in Pentagon worship services
Jack Jenkins | 30 Sept 2025
"... In the edited clip, Hegseth — who prefers the title "Secretary of War" — is briefly seen reciting the Lord's Prayer as dramatic music swells. The Defense secretary's prayer then continues as a voice over and a montage begins: the screen is filled with images of fighter jets and missiles flying, paratroopers tumbling from planes, a waving American flag and finally Hegseth standing and saluting alongside President Donald Trump.
... Even in an administration that has made defending religion a core concern, Hegseth has stood out by publicly advocating his own brand of conservative Christianity — one tied to Idaho pastor and avowed Christian nationalist Doug Wilson.
Critics are now raising concerns that Hegseth, by linking his religion to the most powerful fighting force on the planet, may be running afoul of the U.S. Constitution. "This is more the behavior of someone who is running an ultra-conservative Christian, Seven Mountain Mandate, muscular Christianity, spiritual warfare group," said Rachel Laser, head of the group Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, referring to the Christian nationalist movement to gain control over seven key sectors of society — the "seven mountains"— including government.
... Hegseth, who bears tattoos of the Crusaders' Latin phrase "Deus Vult" ("God wills it') and "kafir" (an Arabic word often translated as "infidel"), belongs to the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches, a small denomination with a short and controversial history. Its co-founder, Doug Wilson, is a rising star on the right who advocates for a society in which non-Christians and even liberal Christians are barred from holding office. His writings have also been criticized as denigrating LGBTQ+ people and downplaying the atrocities of slavery, and he recently alleged "millions" of Muslim immigrants lack any "commitment to, or mechanism of, assimilation" into U.S. society..."
https://www.ncronline.org/news/defense-secretary-hegseth-tests-constitution-pent...
184margd
What’s Up With Peter Thiel’s Obsession With the Antichrist?
Gil Duran | September 16, 2025
"In yet another troubling sign of these times, Peter Thiel can’t stop talking up the Antichrist. This month, the tech billionaire is delivering a four-part, closed-door lecture on the topic, which he is framing as “political theology,” in San Francisco. It’s part of what you might call an “Antichrist World Tour” by the PayPal and Palantir co-founder, who has already given off-the-record Antichrist lectures at Oxford, Harvard, and Bari Weiss’s ersatz college, the University of Austin.
It’s not clear why Thiel needs secrecy to hold forth on his latest obsession. He’s been pontificating about the Antichrist in public talks for years. During a June interview with The New York Times, Thiel offered extended thoughts on the shadowy figure, barely mentioned in the Bible, who according to legend (and countless pulp horror movies) will arise to help Satan kick off Armageddon. He even named a suspect: Greta Thunberg...
...These rehashed Satanic panic tactics must be exposed for what they are: a cynical ploy to further inflame political divisions. It also seems like an awkward effort to cement an alliance with religious nationalists in the Republican Party, who also use apocalyptic language to frame their political goals. Journalist Matthew D’Ancona described Thiel’s Antichrist theories as a “highbrow version of MAGA End-Times theology.”
But naming the Antichrist is a dangerous tactic that often leads to crisis and violence.
... Thiel’s Antichrist fixation fits a long tradition in American politics. Since the nation’s founding, Americans have sought to name the Antichrist—usually by pointing the finger at their political enemies. “The symbol of the Antichrist has played a surprisingly significant role in shaping Americans’ self-understanding,” wrote historian Robert Fuller in 1995’s Naming the Antichrist: The History of an American Obsession. “Because they tend to view their nation as uniquely blessed by God, they have been especially prone to demonize their enemies ... The whole concept of the Antichrist … fosters a crisis mentality ... And with the crisis mentality, now we put aside all other differences. There’s a tribal cohesion, a tribal unity, and it justifies even immoral acts because, to defeat an evil enemy, a Satanic enemy, you must do whatever is necessary.”
Last week, in the hours after Charlie Kirk’s assassination, the words “demon” and “evil” trended on X as some on the right portrayed his murder as the work of supernaturally possessed Democrats and leftists. Major right-wing influencers echoed Carl Schmitt’s ideas {a Nazi philosopher who defined the practice of politics as a struggle against an existential enemy, arguing that politics is just religion in disguise}, calling for a political crackdown on Kirk’s critics. Chris Rufo, a prominent right-wing propagandist, called on law enforcement to “infiltrate, disrupt, arrest, and incarcerate” the “radical left.”
This is where apocalyptic rhetoric always leads. When political opponents become evil, cosmic enemies, persecution, and violence become a sacred duty. This surge in demon and devil talk showed that Thiel has correctly identified a potent but perilous impulse in our politics ..."
The New Republic via https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/peter-thiel-obsession-antichrist-100000451.h...
Gil Duran | September 16, 2025
"In yet another troubling sign of these times, Peter Thiel can’t stop talking up the Antichrist. This month, the tech billionaire is delivering a four-part, closed-door lecture on the topic, which he is framing as “political theology,” in San Francisco. It’s part of what you might call an “Antichrist World Tour” by the PayPal and Palantir co-founder, who has already given off-the-record Antichrist lectures at Oxford, Harvard, and Bari Weiss’s ersatz college, the University of Austin.
It’s not clear why Thiel needs secrecy to hold forth on his latest obsession. He’s been pontificating about the Antichrist in public talks for years. During a June interview with The New York Times, Thiel offered extended thoughts on the shadowy figure, barely mentioned in the Bible, who according to legend (and countless pulp horror movies) will arise to help Satan kick off Armageddon. He even named a suspect: Greta Thunberg...
...These rehashed Satanic panic tactics must be exposed for what they are: a cynical ploy to further inflame political divisions. It also seems like an awkward effort to cement an alliance with religious nationalists in the Republican Party, who also use apocalyptic language to frame their political goals. Journalist Matthew D’Ancona described Thiel’s Antichrist theories as a “highbrow version of MAGA End-Times theology.”
But naming the Antichrist is a dangerous tactic that often leads to crisis and violence.
... Thiel’s Antichrist fixation fits a long tradition in American politics. Since the nation’s founding, Americans have sought to name the Antichrist—usually by pointing the finger at their political enemies. “The symbol of the Antichrist has played a surprisingly significant role in shaping Americans’ self-understanding,” wrote historian Robert Fuller in 1995’s Naming the Antichrist: The History of an American Obsession. “Because they tend to view their nation as uniquely blessed by God, they have been especially prone to demonize their enemies ... The whole concept of the Antichrist … fosters a crisis mentality ... And with the crisis mentality, now we put aside all other differences. There’s a tribal cohesion, a tribal unity, and it justifies even immoral acts because, to defeat an evil enemy, a Satanic enemy, you must do whatever is necessary.”
Last week, in the hours after Charlie Kirk’s assassination, the words “demon” and “evil” trended on X as some on the right portrayed his murder as the work of supernaturally possessed Democrats and leftists. Major right-wing influencers echoed Carl Schmitt’s ideas {a Nazi philosopher who defined the practice of politics as a struggle against an existential enemy, arguing that politics is just religion in disguise}, calling for a political crackdown on Kirk’s critics. Chris Rufo, a prominent right-wing propagandist, called on law enforcement to “infiltrate, disrupt, arrest, and incarcerate” the “radical left.”
This is where apocalyptic rhetoric always leads. When political opponents become evil, cosmic enemies, persecution, and violence become a sacred duty. This surge in demon and devil talk showed that Thiel has correctly identified a potent but perilous impulse in our politics ..."
The New Republic via https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/peter-thiel-obsession-antichrist-100000451.h...
This topic was continued by 'Conservative' Evangelicals & RCs champion Christian Nationalism, Trump 4.
