1timspalding
Catalogers and members know that "edition" is a slippery concept. Most people who know about ISBNs think they're an infallible marker, and are confused when the same ISBN is given a new cover every few years.
Conversely, there a sort of "internal edition" that doesn't exist in the current data. Even when two books share a cover and the pages are identical, a difference in format requires a different ISBN. This makes sense sometimes, but it can also be useful to know that two editions are the same on the inside. For example, sometimes a professor tells you to read pages 110-140, but you don't know if the copy you found at the used bookstore has the same pagination as the expensive or sold-out edition they recommend. Closer to home, I'd like it if members could take notes on a particular page, and the system would know which editions this works for.
So the question is: What's the best way to know and track "internal editions"?
I see no perfect solution, but my 90% solution is to match books up by some internal page. For example, what words start the page on page 112?
Or, to get over some problems with books split between volumes, "the highest page 12."
1. Pick the pagination system. If there are Arabic numerals, use that. Failing that, Roman numerals. Failing that, count pages.
2. Go to the highest hundred with a 12 at the end. If there's a 712, use that. If there's only a 212, 112 or 12, use that instead.
3. Find the first normal text. Ignore running text, like where each page repeats the title of the book or the chapter. If there's no normal text on the page, go back a page until you find some.
I'm aware this might miss some differences, such as new forewords added without disturbing the Arabic page system of the book proper, or afterwords that don't change page X12.
Anyway, I propose this as a contribution to an editions concept at LibraryThing. It could be done by words or by taking pictures of the page using an upcoming "book images" feature. What do you think?
Conversely, there a sort of "internal edition" that doesn't exist in the current data. Even when two books share a cover and the pages are identical, a difference in format requires a different ISBN. This makes sense sometimes, but it can also be useful to know that two editions are the same on the inside. For example, sometimes a professor tells you to read pages 110-140, but you don't know if the copy you found at the used bookstore has the same pagination as the expensive or sold-out edition they recommend. Closer to home, I'd like it if members could take notes on a particular page, and the system would know which editions this works for.
So the question is: What's the best way to know and track "internal editions"?
I see no perfect solution, but my 90% solution is to match books up by some internal page. For example, what words start the page on page 112?
Or, to get over some problems with books split between volumes, "the highest page 12."
1. Pick the pagination system. If there are Arabic numerals, use that. Failing that, Roman numerals. Failing that, count pages.
2. Go to the highest hundred with a 12 at the end. If there's a 712, use that. If there's only a 212, 112 or 12, use that instead.
3. Find the first normal text. Ignore running text, like where each page repeats the title of the book or the chapter. If there's no normal text on the page, go back a page until you find some.
I'm aware this might miss some differences, such as new forewords added without disturbing the Arabic page system of the book proper, or afterwords that don't change page X12.
Anyway, I propose this as a contribution to an editions concept at LibraryThing. It could be done by words or by taking pictures of the page using an upcoming "book images" feature. What do you think?
2waltzmn
>1 timspalding: Anyway, I propose this as a contribution to an editions concept at LibraryThing. It could be done by words or by taking pictures of the page using an upcoming "book images" feature. What do you think?
Sounds like a copyright can of worms, but anything that gets us closer to an Editions layer has my approval. :-)
But an alternate idea: What about a series of benchmarks: First two words on page 50, first two words on page 100, first two words on page 150, and so forth until you run out of multiples of 50. That lets you check the alignment, where they separate, and also gives you a least a hint of the length of the edition.
Sounds like a copyright can of worms, but anything that gets us closer to an Editions layer has my approval. :-)
But an alternate idea: What about a series of benchmarks: First two words on page 50, first two words on page 100, first two words on page 150, and so forth until you run out of multiples of 50. That lets you check the alignment, where they separate, and also gives you a least a hint of the length of the edition.
3timspalding
>2 waltzmn:
I think we could add a lot of checkpoints, but at the same time the key is to do something simple.
I think we could add a lot of checkpoints, but at the same time the key is to do something simple.
4waltzmn
>3 timspalding: at the same time the key is to do something simple.
Good point. I agree that simplicity is a good idas. But -- for me at least -- taking a photo of a page, moving it to the computer, uploading it, and identifying the page is vastly harder than typing the first words on one page, or even eight pages. It requires two devices and two file transfers. Even if you add the ability to load pages from the iPhone and Android apps (which will surely take a lot longer than changing the site coding), typing on the computer is much easier than typing on the phone.
Personal opinion only, of course. But the less fiddling with the phone I have to do, the happier I am.
Good point. I agree that simplicity is a good idas. But -- for me at least -- taking a photo of a page, moving it to the computer, uploading it, and identifying the page is vastly harder than typing the first words on one page, or even eight pages. It requires two devices and two file transfers. Even if you add the ability to load pages from the iPhone and Android apps (which will surely take a lot longer than changing the site coding), typing on the computer is much easier than typing on the phone.
Personal opinion only, of course. But the less fiddling with the phone I have to do, the happier I am.
5GraceCollection
I think this is a good start, but I can see a few issues.
For example, in this edition of a book, the publisher has replaced a single word on page 204, because this word is now considered a slur, and the publisher has decided replacing this word with a different one is in their best interest as a company. Due to the similar length of the slur when compared to the word which has been chosen to replace it, the last 12 page remains unchanged. It is important to some people to have an edition of the book that is the unabridged text as the author wrote it, while it is important to others to get the message of the story without being pulled out of it by the unexpected use of a slur. Others remain unaware or uncaring of this change. How do we handle this case?
As another example, say the 11th edition of Textbook A has 1632 pages. Page 1612 is the last page of the last chapter. The 12th edition of Textbook A has an additional chapter, bringing the page total to 1709, but all chapters before this new chapter remain the same. How do we handle this case?
I do think this is a good idea overall, but maybe the last 12 idea needs to be combined with page numbers, with an additional option for disambiguation notices for special cases.
For example, in this edition of a book, the publisher has replaced a single word on page 204, because this word is now considered a slur, and the publisher has decided replacing this word with a different one is in their best interest as a company. Due to the similar length of the slur when compared to the word which has been chosen to replace it, the last 12 page remains unchanged. It is important to some people to have an edition of the book that is the unabridged text as the author wrote it, while it is important to others to get the message of the story without being pulled out of it by the unexpected use of a slur. Others remain unaware or uncaring of this change. How do we handle this case?
As another example, say the 11th edition of Textbook A has 1632 pages. Page 1612 is the last page of the last chapter. The 12th edition of Textbook A has an additional chapter, bringing the page total to 1709, but all chapters before this new chapter remain the same. How do we handle this case?
I do think this is a good idea overall, but maybe the last 12 idea needs to be combined with page numbers, with an additional option for disambiguation notices for special cases.
6Maddz
I can see issues with RPGs where the difference between some editions is minimal and they are considered effectively the same game; what's changed is the fluff, new illustrations, changes to layout, corrected errata and some expansion to skills lists, and where the changes are so major to make it incompatible with an earlier edition.
Another issue would be an illustrated edition vs a plain text edition. How are you going to handle that if there are no 'other authors' listed? I admit I only tend to list other authors if it's important to me.
Another issue would be an illustrated edition vs a plain text edition. How are you going to handle that if there are no 'other authors' listed? I admit I only tend to list other authors if it's important to me.
7keristars
How would this measure for digital books? Someone has a 2010 version of a public domain book from Project Gutenberg, someone else has the 2021 version. They're the same text, improved formatting - I have a few where italics were originally converted to all caps, a decade plus ago, but recent versions use the italics formatting. (and one where the formatter accidentally did a change-replace so all incidents of "chapter" were in caps...)
I suppose file size could be a proxy?
I suppose file size could be a proxy?
8Maddz
>7 keristars: No, because different formats e.g. epub vs kindle are different file sizes... This doesn't take into account post-download changes either; people do use Calibre to format shift. I used to run my Amazon purchases through the Calibre converter to turn them into epub (now I run my Kobo epubs to adjust the graphics).
Take a look at The Jungle Book on Gutenberg: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/236
Then the same at Standardebooks.org; https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/rudyard-kipling/the-jungle-book (although you'll need to download to get the file sizes).
Take a look at The Jungle Book on Gutenberg: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/236
Then the same at Standardebooks.org; https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/rudyard-kipling/the-jungle-book (although you'll need to download to get the file sizes).
9keristars
>8 Maddz: Right, but wouldn't different file types be different editions?
Though i hear you about running files through Calibre, whether to change the file type, remove extraneous content, adjust formatting... That's not terribly different than removing pages from your personal copy, or rebinding it, though, maybe?
(eta: I've always considered StandardEbooks, FadedPage, Project Gutenberg, Internet Archive, etc, to be unique "publishers", even if they're all working from the same scan that IA holds. Different publishers is different editions, yeah? Or not in this case??)
I suppose what I might really be asking is what do we mean by "internal edition" - if all the text is exactly the same, does the page count have to be exactly the same, and the physical properties? How much can the text be different (if we can't know from spot checks that a slur has been asterisked).
In terms of the idea as a whole:
I found it very interesting when adding my copy yesterday that the 1930, 1959, and 1967 versions of Nancy Drew and the Secret of the Old Clock are lumped into a single work, despite being very different, and it's common for readers to seek out one or the other. Of course, it's a thorny problem with the lack of ISBN differentiation and identical titles, and I'd guess most copies are 1967, though the Applewood facsimiles seemed to be pretty popular.
If that's a problem that is impossible to untangle without contacting each member individually, or checking which cover they chose (if any), I'm not sure how we'd ever get edition information based on text checks. Goodness knows, a large portion of the books I've catalogued in the last 18 years have been library borrows or eventually given away.
Though i hear you about running files through Calibre, whether to change the file type, remove extraneous content, adjust formatting... That's not terribly different than removing pages from your personal copy, or rebinding it, though, maybe?
(eta: I've always considered StandardEbooks, FadedPage, Project Gutenberg, Internet Archive, etc, to be unique "publishers", even if they're all working from the same scan that IA holds. Different publishers is different editions, yeah? Or not in this case??)
I suppose what I might really be asking is what do we mean by "internal edition" - if all the text is exactly the same, does the page count have to be exactly the same, and the physical properties? How much can the text be different (if we can't know from spot checks that a slur has been asterisked).
In terms of the idea as a whole:
I found it very interesting when adding my copy yesterday that the 1930, 1959, and 1967 versions of Nancy Drew and the Secret of the Old Clock are lumped into a single work, despite being very different, and it's common for readers to seek out one or the other. Of course, it's a thorny problem with the lack of ISBN differentiation and identical titles, and I'd guess most copies are 1967, though the Applewood facsimiles seemed to be pretty popular.
If that's a problem that is impossible to untangle without contacting each member individually, or checking which cover they chose (if any), I'm not sure how we'd ever get edition information based on text checks. Goodness knows, a large portion of the books I've catalogued in the last 18 years have been library borrows or eventually given away.
10Maddz
>9 keristars: Different format, certainly. Different edition? If there's a sale at Amazon, and the same ebook is available at Kobo full price, I can buy from Kobo and get a price match if the books are the same edition - which they usually are when you check the copyright and other details; the books have the same ISBN. Paper books seem to differ in editions between hardback and paperback going by ISBN, but ebooks don't unless there are different publishers involved. Also, I have many ebooks that share the ISBN with a paper edition (mostly older ebooks originally published in paper where the ebook has replaced the mass-market paperback and the ebook is OCR'd from the paper edition).
The other problem with page references for ebooks is that it depends very much on the reader's choice of font and font size. We may have purchased the same book; you from Amazon and dowloaded onto a Kindle and read using the default settings for the book. I've purchased from Kobo, downloaded to my computer, imported to Calibre, run the conversion, then side-loaded to my Kobo; when I read it, I decide to change the font and/or the size, because aging eyes. Your page 112 probably won't match my page 112 even though it's exactly the same edition.
The only time page numbers for ebooks will match is if we both purchase the same PDF - which defeats the object of buying an ebook.
So to go back to the original idea, I think relying on matching page details for identifying different 'editions' is going to fall down when one edition includes a reflowable ebook format, given how customisable ebooks are for reading.
The other problem with page references for ebooks is that it depends very much on the reader's choice of font and font size. We may have purchased the same book; you from Amazon and dowloaded onto a Kindle and read using the default settings for the book. I've purchased from Kobo, downloaded to my computer, imported to Calibre, run the conversion, then side-loaded to my Kobo; when I read it, I decide to change the font and/or the size, because aging eyes. Your page 112 probably won't match my page 112 even though it's exactly the same edition.
The only time page numbers for ebooks will match is if we both purchase the same PDF - which defeats the object of buying an ebook.
So to go back to the original idea, I think relying on matching page details for identifying different 'editions' is going to fall down when one edition includes a reflowable ebook format, given how customisable ebooks are for reading.
11Maddz
Oh, from what I can gather about ebooks - the epub is what the publisher provides to Amazon (which in turn has been generated from the pre-publication print files judging by some of the rubbish I've got from NetGalley). Amazon converts it to whatever format they currently use for Kindles.
12waltzmn
What I'm observig based on >5 GraceCollection: through >11 Maddz: is that we need different ways of managing electronic editions versus print editions, correct? A print edition is, at least theoretically, well-defined. An electronic edition... sounds like it needs a precise definition. (It matters less how we decide what is "one edition" than that we agree on what that means.) So maybe that's the place to start; once that's decided, then you can decide how to tell them apart.
13birder4106
Shouldn't we first discuss what differentiates the editions in the first place?
Once that is (approximately) clarified, how can it best be implemented?
What I don't know is whether there are different “cultural” understandings in the different languages.
For me, there are also different levels (more?):
1. author
2. publisher
3. translations, possibly editions in other countries
The other distinguishing features would then be located within these.
Points that are different editions for me would be:
1st level author:
Additions, revisions, corrections(?), ...
2nd level publisher:
ISBN, pictures, illustrations, appendices, glossary, ..., page numbers (text, book), fonts {e.g. dyslexia}, Braille, format (hardcover, paperback), electronic formats {ePub, pdf, txt}, CD, mp3, ...}, annotated editions, editions for pupils, students, luxury editions, ...
3rd level translations ... :
Publisher, new translations, → as for 2nd level publisher.
And surely many more.
Under certain circumstances, a vote on the individual levels or points could provide some information.
Once that is (approximately) clarified, how can it best be implemented?
What I don't know is whether there are different “cultural” understandings in the different languages.
For me, there are also different levels (more?):
1. author
2. publisher
3. translations, possibly editions in other countries
The other distinguishing features would then be located within these.
Points that are different editions for me would be:
1st level author:
Additions, revisions, corrections(?), ...
2nd level publisher:
ISBN, pictures, illustrations, appendices, glossary, ..., page numbers (text, book), fonts {e.g. dyslexia}, Braille, format (hardcover, paperback), electronic formats {ePub, pdf, txt}, CD, mp3, ...}, annotated editions, editions for pupils, students, luxury editions, ...
3rd level translations ... :
Publisher, new translations, → as for 2nd level publisher.
And surely many more.
Under certain circumstances, a vote on the individual levels or points could provide some information.
14GraceCollection
Is an edition different when it's gone from one localised version of a language to another? Is the Spanish version of one book considered a different edition from the Mexican version of the same book? Is the Australian a different edition from the USAmerican? Generally, there are minor differences, vosotros to ustedes, lift to elevator, minor punctuation and spelling changes, but what about versions that cut out or replace regional slang? If a character named Randy in the States gets renamed Andrew on an international market, is that a different edition?
What about covers? Even beyond regions, if the text, font, and formatting inside my book is identical to what's inside yours, but I have a different cover, is that a different edition? What if everything is identical except that my cover says 'Times Best Seller' and yours does not? Or everything identical except the colour and/or font of the title?
I'm not saying these are unanswerable questions. But it's a lot that needs to be ironed out by LT officially before someone starts an edit war.
What about covers? Even beyond regions, if the text, font, and formatting inside my book is identical to what's inside yours, but I have a different cover, is that a different edition? What if everything is identical except that my cover says 'Times Best Seller' and yours does not? Or everything identical except the colour and/or font of the title?
I'm not saying these are unanswerable questions. But it's a lot that needs to be ironed out by LT officially before someone starts an edit war.
15lemontwist
Textbook editions famously keep their text the same but change the example question numbering so that professor's homework sets will be different and require that students purchase the new book. Typically the page numbers don't change much, if at all, between editions.
