1Doug1943
Free Speech is under attack in the US from both Left and Right, another symptom of the decline of the West.
Here's a good article on the hypocrisy of the Left with respect to the Right's current attack on people who said nasty things about Charlie Kirk.
https://unherd.com/2025/10/the-lefts-ugly-free-speech-fetish/
It would be nice -- a huge understatement -- to see principled liberals and conservatives who still believe in Free Speech come together in some sort of movement to defend it. Perhaps Noam Chomsky will initiate such a movement.
Here's a good article on the hypocrisy of the Left with respect to the Right's current attack on people who said nasty things about Charlie Kirk.
https://unherd.com/2025/10/the-lefts-ugly-free-speech-fetish/
It would be nice -- a huge understatement -- to see principled liberals and conservatives who still believe in Free Speech come together in some sort of movement to defend it. Perhaps Noam Chomsky will initiate such a movement.
2timspalding
There are so many layers to this discussion. I'm in favor of both free speech as a legal concept, and a bias toward freedom of expression as a cultural norm, but they're not the same thing. They cross, especially when it comes to public employees--university professors, school teachers, librarians--where the legal precedent is somewhat mixed and tricky. But if we exclude that, it's pretty clear where the line is. As regards legality, I'm a free-speech absolutist.
My strong sense is that the current wave of right-wing attacks on free speech are many times as serious as previous left-wing attacks—that the chairman of the FCC publicly threatening to revoke broadcast licenses like a mafia boss—"We can do this the easy way or the hard way"—is many, many times worse than the Biden administration privately and without threats pestering Facebook to remove vaccine denialist content. But I was against the latter when many on the left ignored it, so I feel good about my choices. Ditto on "hate speech." There is no such legal thing, and should never be. All those leftists posting about the "paradox of tolerance" were wrong then—and I told them so. The right have now picked up that language and are now deploying it against simple criticism of the regime. "I told you so" is cold comfort.
I think we're in a very dangerous time now. The right is trampling basic rights, but much of the left has stopped thinking in terms of basic rights at all too, and can't really defend it as they might have once. Free speech is now mostly defended for yourself, not others. Politics as raw power, not a matter of principles, stares me to death.
As regards consequences and cancellation, it's really all about the "Overton window." As someone who runs a private company, I can tell you that, although it would depend on context and content, there are things employees could say that I'd fire them over, and a slightly larger list of things I'd reject an applicant over. I would not hire someone who openly and publicly celebrated Kirk's murder or, for example, Pelosi's beating. But I would have no problem hiring someone who said that Kirk or Pelos was a terrible person, that they weren't mourning him, etc—things that indeed people are losing their jobs over.
My strong sense is that the current wave of right-wing attacks on free speech are many times as serious as previous left-wing attacks—that the chairman of the FCC publicly threatening to revoke broadcast licenses like a mafia boss—"We can do this the easy way or the hard way"—is many, many times worse than the Biden administration privately and without threats pestering Facebook to remove vaccine denialist content. But I was against the latter when many on the left ignored it, so I feel good about my choices. Ditto on "hate speech." There is no such legal thing, and should never be. All those leftists posting about the "paradox of tolerance" were wrong then—and I told them so. The right have now picked up that language and are now deploying it against simple criticism of the regime. "I told you so" is cold comfort.
I think we're in a very dangerous time now. The right is trampling basic rights, but much of the left has stopped thinking in terms of basic rights at all too, and can't really defend it as they might have once. Free speech is now mostly defended for yourself, not others. Politics as raw power, not a matter of principles, stares me to death.
As regards consequences and cancellation, it's really all about the "Overton window." As someone who runs a private company, I can tell you that, although it would depend on context and content, there are things employees could say that I'd fire them over, and a slightly larger list of things I'd reject an applicant over. I would not hire someone who openly and publicly celebrated Kirk's murder or, for example, Pelosi's beating. But I would have no problem hiring someone who said that Kirk or Pelos was a terrible person, that they weren't mourning him, etc—things that indeed people are losing their jobs over.
3GandalfTheGreen
>1 Doug1943: This is such a false comparison that it must be called out as the disinformation it is every time it appears. To compare left-leaning people who take advantage of free market capitalism to choose where they spend their money to POTUS directly ordering a government agency to pull a comedian off the air is foolish and disingenuous on its face.
Stop spreading this anti-American BS and start standing up to the evil that is currently dismantling our country.
Stop spreading this anti-American BS and start standing up to the evil that is currently dismantling our country.
4LolaWalser
>1 Doug1943:
Truly monstrous and totally un-self-aware hypocrisy. How many utterly hateful racist threads and posts have you made over the years? Did you protest, like your lot DIDN'T, when Trump gloated about sexually assaulting women and getting off with murder on 5th Avenue? Or when he posted videos of violence doled out to his opponents, like the faked one with a golf ball hitting Hillary Clinton in the head, or the real one of that convicted felon Republican assaulting a reporter? Can you point out any Democrat (ETA: to say nothing of a fucking POTUS!) doing the same?
Where were you when your lot planned to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer and sneered at the assassinated Hortmans? Were you apologetic when Trump and others of your lot made fun of the attack on Pelosi's husband? Did you ever say "sorry" for January 6th, a full frontal attack on your country's advertised values and freedoms? No, wait--you actually tried to recruit people FOR such uprising.
Where is the Democratic, or indeed any so-called "left" counterexample to QAnon, neo-Nazism, the thousands of white and male supremacists spreading hatred among millions, and actually plotting and delivering murder pretty much daily in your country?
Project any harder and they'll start picking you up on Alpha Centauri.
Truly monstrous and totally un-self-aware hypocrisy. How many utterly hateful racist threads and posts have you made over the years? Did you protest, like your lot DIDN'T, when Trump gloated about sexually assaulting women and getting off with murder on 5th Avenue? Or when he posted videos of violence doled out to his opponents, like the faked one with a golf ball hitting Hillary Clinton in the head, or the real one of that convicted felon Republican assaulting a reporter? Can you point out any Democrat (ETA: to say nothing of a fucking POTUS!) doing the same?
Where were you when your lot planned to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer and sneered at the assassinated Hortmans? Were you apologetic when Trump and others of your lot made fun of the attack on Pelosi's husband? Did you ever say "sorry" for January 6th, a full frontal attack on your country's advertised values and freedoms? No, wait--you actually tried to recruit people FOR such uprising.
Where is the Democratic, or indeed any so-called "left" counterexample to QAnon, neo-Nazism, the thousands of white and male supremacists spreading hatred among millions, and actually plotting and delivering murder pretty much daily in your country?
Project any harder and they'll start picking you up on Alpha Centauri.
5kiparsky
>1 Doug1943: Are you able to grasp the distinction between free speech as a civil liberties issue and "free speech" as a bloody shirt waved by people looking to gin up a fight?
To be clear, the former is about government restrictions on an individual's right to express their beliefs, the latter is generally about someone hoping to force a private or semi-private entity to provide them with a platform for their speech. They are quite different issues, and when we talk about "free speech" it's important to be clear about which one you mean. So, are you talking about civil liberties, or are you talking about your desire to force private entities to promote and platform content that they aren't interested in promoting or platforming?
If you're talking about civil liberties, please provide examples of the sorts of free speech violations that you think "the left" is committing or has committed. (Hint: there are some, and you can find them, and we can talk about them). If you're whining about a little sack of shit like the dead bigot not being allowed to shovel his bigoted bullshit on some campus somewhere, why would anyone give a shit about that?
(No offense to anyone who likes dead bigots - I thought Kirk was a sack of shit before he sadly passed on to his eternal reward, and I see no reason to change my views now that some dipshit exercised their second amendment rights in his general direction. Your mileage may vary, if you happen to like bigoted fuckwads, or if you happen to be a bigoted fuckwad yourself.)
To be clear, the former is about government restrictions on an individual's right to express their beliefs, the latter is generally about someone hoping to force a private or semi-private entity to provide them with a platform for their speech. They are quite different issues, and when we talk about "free speech" it's important to be clear about which one you mean. So, are you talking about civil liberties, or are you talking about your desire to force private entities to promote and platform content that they aren't interested in promoting or platforming?
If you're talking about civil liberties, please provide examples of the sorts of free speech violations that you think "the left" is committing or has committed. (Hint: there are some, and you can find them, and we can talk about them). If you're whining about a little sack of shit like the dead bigot not being allowed to shovel his bigoted bullshit on some campus somewhere, why would anyone give a shit about that?
(No offense to anyone who likes dead bigots - I thought Kirk was a sack of shit before he sadly passed on to his eternal reward, and I see no reason to change my views now that some dipshit exercised their second amendment rights in his general direction. Your mileage may vary, if you happen to like bigoted fuckwads, or if you happen to be a bigoted fuckwad yourself.)
6Doug1943
A note: all the Leftists gloating openly about Charlie Kirk's murder did a big favor to the Right. Several Rightists who understand political psychology have made collections of these disgusting posts, to circulate among us. Why? Because when conservatives read them, they generate hatred, and hatred is by far the strongest motivator in politics. I hope that if a Leftist suffers a similar fate, that people on the Right are not so stupid as to celebrate it. On the contrary, they should deplore it.
Here's an interesting take on what's happening. I think he's way too optimistic, but who know?: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/06/opinion/politics/how-to-save-the-american-exp...
Here's an interesting take on what's happening. I think he's way too optimistic, but who know?: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/06/opinion/politics/how-to-save-the-american-exp...
7kiparsky
>6 Doug1943: Trying to change the subject already? Really?
Isn't that kind of pathetic, even for you?
Isn't that kind of pathetic, even for you?
8Doug1943
I didn't know you got to determine what the subject was. The Left, in its majority, hates free speech, period. And it's not really deeply popular on the Right, either. A symptom of civilizational decline.
9kiparsky
>8 Doug1943: You decided what the subject was going to be. And then when it turned out that that subject was drawing questions that made you feel a bit uncomfortable you changed tack and started talking about something else. Again, that's kind of pathetic, even for a whining crybaby like you. Come on, dude. If you don't have the balls to stand up for your Nazi bullshit, at least try to rent a pair for the afternoon.
10Doug1943
There's a very simple position to be taken on Free Speech: be for it.
We can argue about whether Trump's attacks on it are more dangerous than the Left's attacks on it. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. We should oppose both.
We should be for Free Speech. What's so difficult about that?
Yes, you are not obligated to patronize a business if you don't like the beliefs of its owner. You are not obligated to come hear a speaker you don't like -- but if you do attend, you ARE obligated to let them speak.
Lots of people, Left and Right, don't believe this.
Some current statistics:
https://www.thefire.org/news/new-high-34-americans-say-free-speech-headed-wrong-...
"Most US college students oppose letting controversial speakers on campus"
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/10/university-students-free-speech
We can argue about whether Trump's attacks on it are more dangerous than the Left's attacks on it. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. We should oppose both.
We should be for Free Speech. What's so difficult about that?
Yes, you are not obligated to patronize a business if you don't like the beliefs of its owner. You are not obligated to come hear a speaker you don't like -- but if you do attend, you ARE obligated to let them speak.
Lots of people, Left and Right, don't believe this.
Some current statistics:
https://www.thefire.org/news/new-high-34-americans-say-free-speech-headed-wrong-...
"Most US college students oppose letting controversial speakers on campus"
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/10/university-students-free-speech
