2nd edn Finalist discussion: Girl From the Marsh Croft

Another new text for me! I've just started reading it and I'm taken so far!

My job here is to provide guidance on feasibility, timeline, and pricing. The short proposal already has some specificity to it, so I can provide some more concrete numbers.

Copyright: No problem here.

Length and pricing: At the proposer points out, the text is a novella length of around 20,000 words. Using the formula $150 + $3 x 250 words, this is probably a $400+ project.

With the following specifications as given in the short proposal

Quarter-bound in coarse linen with the title stamped in deep forest green, birch veneer boards (paste paper or textured Cave paper in marsh/forest greens if birch proves challenging/expensive). Textured laid paper for the textblock evoking rustic Nordic essence. At least one full-page black-and-white illustration as a frontispiece, plus subtle chapter tail drawings—such as scales and a gavel after the courtroom scene—to enhance immersion without overwhelming simplicity.

I think we're indeed looking at something in the $400 to $500 range.

(Birch veneer would actually be cheaper than Cave or paste paper.)

Feasibility: Completely feasible. It could be done in under a year.

I'm not familiar with author or title, which I like! Something new to read. The binding approach sounds terrific. I think this could make for a lovely book.

My first thought on the suggestion illustrations of such things as scales or a gavel was, "Eh, too literal for me," but I may well be in the minority.

Unknown to me but highly interested in this one. Need to give it a read, but my gut impression tells me it will be between this and In Praise of Shadows vying for the top slot with me.

>4 Shadekeep: I think I'm with you. The Dusaney has potential too, although I am hesistant about going for facsimilies.

For those curious to check it out now, there is a version available from Project Gutenberg here: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41414

It's the 1916 Velma Swanston Howard translation and I have no clue what level of regard that is held in, but hopefully it's sufficient to at least gauge the quality of the work itself.

Thank you, all, for the interest and encouragement.
I'm out of town in all-day meetings today, traveling back home tomorrow, so most likely I won't be able to add much these two days. But to kick things off I'll post a rendering here. It wasn't meant to be shared - I created it for myself awhile back when I was brainstorming and toying with design ideas. But I think it gives an idea of my general vision for the binding. I might try generating a better one when I have some free time.

A few notes:
- CP will also be stamped at the bottom of the spine
- the text of the title is just slapped on top of the spine without making it curve realistically with the spine
- I'm not set on this particular type or even size for the spine title, this is just a mockup.

>7 elladan0891: Very elegant! Also, easily executed.

You might splurge on a few full page illustrations! I sort of agree with >3 Shotcaller: on the ornamental illustrations.

>7 elladan0891: Nice mockup! I need to read the book to get a sort of synesthetic feel for it, but just going by the subject I think dark green or blue fabric could also work here and really make the wood "pop". The text might be white in such cases.

And I agree with Griffin, some full-page illos would be great! At least one for a frontispiece.

I love this proposal. The write up was excellent. If it is to be birch veneer boards, maybe marsh/forest greens can be displayed in endpapers. I wonder how well known the author is today. Maybe a foreword or afterword could be added?

A good place to start when selecting actual materials is Talas.

They stock most of the standard book clothes, papers, leathers, etc. on the market today.

https://www.talasonline.com/

I was pleasantly surprised and in slight disbelief that a relatively unknown Swedish book would be proposed. It is not one of her most well-known works but as an author, Selma Lagerlöf is well-known and read in Sweden, although maybe not so much by the younger generations anymore.

I have not encountered anyone outside of Scandinavia that has come across her. If an after / foreword would be useful, I am sure there are plenty of Swedish scholars that could contribute.

>12 Lexkex: While not familiar with any specific work, I have been aware of this author for many years. It comes from my having been a seller of both new and antiquarian books.

>8 grifgon: You might splurge on a few full page illustrations!

Aha! That's what I want to hear!
Notice I wrote: "At least one full-page black-and-white illustration as a frontispiece, plus subtle chapter tail drawings"
I'd love a few full-page illustrations, but I was being careful as I don't have a good idea about associated costs - both illustrator fees and associated printing costs. So I hope you can guide me!

I don't want to increase the cost of the book by much. And I'm thinking black & white illustrations in realistic style - pen drawings, linocuts/woodcuts, or the like - is there significant cost difference between any of them?

>3 Shotcaller: My first thought on the suggestion illustrations of such things as scales or a gavel was, "Eh, too literal for me,"
>8 grifgon: I sort of agree with >3 Shotcaller: Shotcaller: on the ornamental illustrations

- don't get hang up on the example: I'm not planning to direct the commissioned artist what to draw, the artist would have artistic freedom. This was just the first - and yes, rather obvious - example that came to my mind.
- while I certainly won't be insisting on any particular objects for tailpieces, in my mind chapter tailpieces are small drawings of some objects related to or inspired by that chapter. So anything would be more or less literal - unless you're doing purely decorative drawings that have nothing to do with the text. Or you just don't like scales/gavel example specifically? So what would you want to see there? Something purely decorative? Or you don't like tailpieces in general?

>10 Pendrainllwyn: maybe marsh/forest greens can be displayed in endpapers

You're reading my mind!

@consensuspress @grifgon - how flexible are we with the 5th (honing) stage? Let me explain why I'm asking:

I was thinking of typefaces for the proposal. At first, I was thinking to search for elegant types that were either created or popular in the early 1900s and then suggest a couple of options. But then I thought it won't be the best approach. I have to admit I'm no scholar of typefaces, to say the least. Compared to many people here, both professionals and just fellow bibliophiles, I'm an utter Philistine. I understand the importance of typefaces, and certainly judge books by their types, but I've never felt an urge to learn more about them. Give me a type that I judge elegant, pleasing, and fitting the work - and I'm happy. I won't be able to guess its name for the life of me, and I'd know next to nothing of its history. So, I'm clearly not the best person to be proposing one.

Then I thought of two things. First, I thought a professional would be more apropos for the job. In particular, I think it would be great for the hired book designer to be involved. Secondly, I thought it would be nice to engage the fellow members and let you make some decisions. So ideally, I would like the book's designer to suggest maybe 3 different types that he thinks would work best for the text (and maybe a couple for the spine) and then pick typefaces by Consensus. But it looks like the fifth stage comes before engaging anyone? Or could we officially end the fifth stage knowing that we'll select types after we get the book designer? I guess there is nothing stopping us doing that as this won't affect cost estimates?

Kennerly.

>17 elladan0891: It's a good question. Different craftspeople will be more or less open to collaboration with the group as a whole, which Richard will facilitate when the time comes.

Things like the selection of a typeface are craftsperson-dependent. For example, the Members might decide "We want Romanée!" only then to contract a designer who doesn't have a digital Romanée. Or the members may decide "We want a forest green cloth!" only to discover that none are available on the market at the moment.

It's going to have to be a fluid process. I'd view the expanded proposal as a first draft which will then be honed and adjusted by both consensus and necessity.

>19 grifgon: I'll second that! It was precisely for some of these reasons that my original concept for Sinuhe had to be modified. The result wasn't what I had envisioned, but it was close.

>12 Lexkex: I have not encountered anyone outside of Scandinavia that has come across her.

Yeah, she's not well-known in the Anglosphere despite her Nobel. But she's known in Russia, although mostly for... The Wonderful Adventures of Nils. Her adult prose is published once in a while and is available for purchase, but is pretty niche - as Russians joke, "widely known in narrow circles" :)

Nils, however, has gone through multiple translations, including abridgements and retellings, and countless editions over the past century. Below are a couple of pics of my leatherbound edition. And I was first introduced to Nils and Lagerlof as a kid via the classic 1955 Soviet cartoon :)

>21 elladan0891: That's really interesting, thanks for letting me know and for posting pictures of the gorgeous Vita Nova edition! I knew that Karlsson-on-the-Roof had made his way over but I didn't know that Nils had done the same although in his original form. I had no idea there is also a Soviet cartoon featuring him... Although as a Lagerlöf fan I am sure you have read it, I cannot recommend The Saga of Gösta Berling enough, which I find reminiscent of The Master and Margarita save for the political aspects.

>21 elladan0891: Yes, it's the Nils works that I know this author for. It's a bit like how many people know Tove Jansson only for her Moomin work, even though she wrote so much more - it's the Moomins (and Nils) who caught fire culturally and ended up around the world, or at least a goodly part of it.

>23 Shadekeep: Yes, I've been meaning to read Tove Jansson's adult stuff, but haven't got to it yet. Anything in particular you can recommend?

>22 Lexkex: How did you know it was the Vita Nova edition? :)

...I cannot recommend The Saga of Gösta Berling enough...

I know that it catapulted her into fame in Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia and is considered to be one of her major works, perhaps even her magnum opus, but I have to confess that I haven't read it yet. But it does sound great - a precursor to magical realism written many decades before the term even appeared, eccentric characters, different chapters written in different genres - I should definitely prioritize it!

As a matter of fact, this venture, along with the vast majority of my Fine Press purchases, is more an exploration of the new than a return to the good old favorites. I have read Lagerlöf before, of course, but not nearly enough. When thinking what to propose, I was aiming for something classic, influential, overlooked by Anglophone Fine Presses, but also something that would trigger my own explorations.

And when her name came to my mind, I thought she was an excellent candidate. A Nobel Laureate criminally overlooked in the English-speaking world, and a very multi-faceted author with vastly different works in different styles exploring different ideas, many of which I haven't read yet. Gösta Berling was on my list to read for some time. The Ring of the Löwenskölds trilogy also sounds interesting, as it seems that in some ways she's blending Old Norse sagas with 19th century Gothic lit, and from what it sounds perhaps is even closer to magical realism than Gösta Berling. So quite a bit to explore! And particularly interesting as these works would be vastly different to the realist and psychological works like The Girl from the Marsh Croft or The Emperor of Portugallia, so I'm not quite sure what to expect!

>24 elladan0891: Depending on which side of the coin you wish to land on, either The True Deceiver or The Summer Book are great choices. Arguably her darkest and lightest works, respectively. Much of her other writing tends to land somewhere in the pastoral midlands between. NYRB has put out some nice editions of her work in English.

>26 Shadekeep: Thanks! I was considering The Summer Book before, so I guess this settles it! The Summer Book will be my starting point.

What translation is being proposed here? Is it the 1910 Velma Swanston Howard one?

>28 jveezer: Yes. It is in the proposal.

>29 Glacierman: Ah, I didn't see it, probably because I was looking in the body and not in the title. I wonder how it is viewed by scholars and people who can read it in both the original and in English? Moot point, maybe, since it seems it's the ONLY English translation but I'm curious just the same.

>30 jveezer: My impression is that it is well regarded as an accurate rendition. It is interesting that there have been no other translations into English since.

Yes. You would think a Nobel Laureate would deserve another look. Or at least have some commentary on the quality of extant translations. Says the reader buying the third translation of Proust as fast as Oxford World's Classics is publishing them...

I was a bit put off by Howard's (or Lagerlöf's) phrasing at the beginning of the Project Gutenberg text of the work. It's gotten better as I've read but still makes me wonder.

Oy veh. That last paragraph. I don't know Swedish but reading the novella definitely makes me think a new translation is in order. Even so, a CP edition with this translation would be welcome, as we're unlikely to see another one at this point.

I might seek out the Swedish text and see if I can make better sense out of that last paragraph.

>32 jveezer: It’s a shame how little even gets translated into English. Fitzcarraldo and New York Review Books Classics are helping, but even so.

If this proposal doesn’t get selected, I’ll reach out to NYRB suggesting they take a look at the book. You never know; maybe they’d commission a new translation.

>34 Shotcaller: NYRB, Archipelago, Open Letter, Deep Vellum, are all doing their part to keep literature in translation on our shelves. It's probably the majority of what I read these days.

>35 jveezer: Aye, some of my favorite publishers nowadays as well. Glad you mentioned Archipelago, they bring out some brilliant stuff I'd never find on my own, and their subscription option is a positive bargain.

Pushkin Press and Dalkey Archives are also good sources for choice translated gems.

>35 jveezer: I’m ashamed to admit I wasn’t familiar with Archipelago. Any recommended titles?

And are they publishing new translations?

>37 Shotcaller: A Mind at Peace, A Dream in Polar Fog, The First Wife, and The Last Days of Terranova are some faves that come to mind!

Yes, usually first translatoins...

>39 jveezer: Wonderful. Thank you!

>33 jveezer: The last short paragraph is clumsy but I didn't have concerns elsewhere. Overall, I liked the translation and thoroughly enjoyed the story.

>39 jveezer: I'll chime in here with some further Archipelago recommendations - Distant Light, The Salt Smugglers, The Serpent of Stars, Lenz, Emblems of Desire, and Mandarins: Stories. The variety in their catalogue is incredible, though I suppose to be expected when you have all the world's writers to draw from.

>42 Shadekeep: I feel like I’ve been handed the key to the treasure-house. Thank you both.

>42 Shadekeep: I haven't read any of those! I'll check them out as well.

>44 jveezer: Hope you enjoy! I also echo your suggestion of A Dream in Polar Fog, and I picked up The First Wife after you recommended it in another thread.

>33 jveezer: a CP edition with this translation would be welcome, as we're unlikely to see another one at this point

That's a realistic take with which I completely agree. If anything, CP publishing the work and, perhaps, getting the book reviewed somewhere - even in a niche publication like Parenthesis as Richard did with Sinuhe - might help putting Lagerlöf on a map and create some chances of new translations of any of her various works being done in the future.

And it's not that Swanston Howard's translation is archaic or unreadable. I think it's actually an easy read. Even the last paragraph you mentioned - it's crystal clear, and I think it works well as a happy end closure without being nauseatingly Hollywood-syrupy.

I like what Griffin said in his introduction to the Descent of Ishtar:

"The difference between the first and second translations is vast, and bookends over a century of scholarship."

He's talking about ancient texts but I can't help but think a century of changing times and improving quality of translation would benefit Lagerlöf as well. (I'm still struggling with that last paragraph...) I'm a lover of literature in translation but have high standards. I'm reading my third translation of Proust, who wrote about the same time as Lagerlöf, translations that happen because the first one, though still widely read, perhaps partly because it is out of copyright, is widely acknowledged to have quite a bit of liberty taken with it. Like some of the now dismissed translations of Cervantes' Don Quixote. Give me Grossman's any day.

Again, I'm not saying I would want to incur the increased cost of a new translation of this work, and I would be pretty happy with a CP edition of this translation. But this is why I've only proposed works in English so far. Hundred year old translations into English often feel exceptionally dated.

>47 jveezer: Besides the advances in translation that often (but not always) result in a better translation the more modern it is, there is also the influence of a particular translator to account for. One case in point, the recent retranslation of Solaris is much more accurate to Lem's original, yet the earlier one to me is a more vividly told version in English. No doubt some of that the translator taking license to punch up the text, and a lot of people prefer the more accurate recent version, but it's worth keeping in mind that a new translation isn't always a better one.

>48 Shadekeep: Great point. Lydia Davis’s translation of Swann’s Way is newer than Moncrieff’s, but it would be hard to argue that it’s an improvement.

>48 Shadekeep: >49 Shotcaller: Except that Moncrieff did more than translate, which I don't believe Davis or Nelson have done. Just his titles alone drive me crazy, especially of the second volume. In a Budding Grove? What the French? I still value his translation as the first I read, and because I have some nice editions (the LEC and the Folio Society), and I am dipping into the new edition from Yale University Press with annotations by Carter. But I probably won't read his translation in full again.

I don't believe Proust himself was impressed with the little he knew of his translation before he died. That carries a lot of weight with me.

And to the point here, I have to believe that last paragraph was a pretty complete hash by the translator. The AI translator I ran the Swedish through is just as jarring, so I'm wondering if Howard and AI are totally missing some nuance or subtlety of the Swedish language.

>50 jveezer: What in particular stands out as jarring to you? I do have a guess which phrase you probably don't like, but I'm curious to know.

>48 Shadekeep: >49 Shotcaller: Great points. Newer translations aren't necessarily better. I don't think it's right to generalize one way or another. There were some bad translations in the past, sure. Then there were some that were great in their time but appear archaic now - which might or might not be a bad thing. And there were some great translations.

I read books in two languages, and I have to say that in both, some of the best, iconic translations are older ones. I think that in order to translate a great writer, the translator must be a great writer in the target language himself. And that was very common in the past in many countries - well-established authors in their own right often translated various classic works.

That is not to say there are no good modern translations, of course.

>51 elladan0891: Basically the whole last paragraph. It's jarring and seems like a complete change of tone. If it's not the translation, then maybe it's the writer. Enough to put me off the story, which I thought was good except for the first and last paragraph.

It was still my fave of the proposals but it would NOT have been a frequent read. I will probably explore one of her more popular titles to give her another chance.