Six months later...

Hello to those following along in this GoodReader on LibraryThing journey,

It's been 6 months now that I've been on LT. I'm a happy camper. I do, however, use both LT and GR, and would hate to lose either one now. GR does certain things easier and better, like when I'm thinking of buying a book GR is where I can see the opinions of decades-long trusted reviewers I follow, and, OF COURSE, there's the commenting on reviews which we all love to leave and receive, often starting a whole new engagement.

So, after 6 months, these are some thoughts of mine on being a member of LT.

Navigation
It no longer makes me want to cry from frustration! Thank heaven. In the early days I found it discombobulating. It's a complex site. I'm still discovering features that make books and reading more interesting, but it no longer messes mess with my head. I can get around to the places I need to go and do things I need to do, tear-free.

Peeps
There is a sign as you approach a small Texas town that reads "Welcome to Stanton, Home of 3000 friendly people and few old soreheads." LT reminds me of that sign. I have made friends and comrades, some already quite dear to me. There are helpful types who will brainstorm with you on a thing you want to do or to understand. There are those that make such insightful and engaging comments that I wait with bated breath for them. By far, most LT peeps are mighty friendly. Just save yourself some grief, always be respectful, and don't compare it to GR! (Just like the town of Stanton would not like to be compared with another small town, say Gardendale.)

Groups
Groups are the life blood of LT social life, supplemented by DMs. I'm regularly active in half a dozen groups, and follow along in another half dozen where I comment only when so inclined. My most active group is the one I created, mostly as a test and with great trepidation, The Poetry Collective. It has been surprisingly successful, especially given that it is all about poetry. Every day on LT, like on GR, I experience the pleasure of talking books and reading.

Site development
I can't even begin to count how many updates developers have included in these 6 months. Most recently they added an "activity level" to one's profile. LT is very, very sensitive about member privacy and unlike GR never even states when you were last online. Additionally related to development, I reported a bug I found in the newest GR import and they fixed it within a couple of months. I had hoped for quicker, but that's still a better track record than GR bugs that adversely affect millions and millions of users for months and months.

Privacy
With AI exploding and without restraint, I am more aware of privacy and ownership of my data, even my own thoughts! Founder and continuing developer @TimSpalding recently addressed that in a question I asked. They are clearly employing techniques to keep members' data from the AI scrapers. But, as we all know only too well, there seems to be only so much that can be done to protect our digital selves, shy of going off the web completely. I wouldn't even know where to begin to find information about GR's stance on our data being used to scrape-train AI. Possibly such stance is not even publicly acknowledged.

Now for that new Thing I just tried
I just began cataloguing my favorite Youtube videos of recipes! (Youtube's "save" system is grossly wanting.) I am chuffed. With LT I can put as many sortable tags as I want on each video to classify them. I can include the link to the video and perhaps link to the creator's written recipe too in my "review." I even can list ingredients needed then later search my "books" for reviews for a specific ingredient. This is all allowed by LT because they are foundationally a cataloguing site. Beyond books they already accommodate music and films. And as long as you are not cataloguing for commercial or illegal purposes, you can use their system for anything you like. If you want to see this miracle I've performed (ha) take a look at my library of Youtube video recipe collection https://www.librarything.com/catalog.php?deepsearch=recipes%20AND%20%22yt%2A%22&... Perhaps you too have something that needs cataloguing?

Yes, I'm a happy 6 months LT camper.

While doing my thing on each site I don't think about the comparison of LT and GR much any more. They are different, with different strengths, different shortcomings, and different vibes. I like partaking of both, creating a richer experience in my reading life.

But the vital question here is: has it been 6 months already?!

How time flies!

I appreciate all the questions you've had and the thinking it's started. 🫶

Wow, cataloguing video-based recipes. In retrospect, an obvious need but I hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it!

Love what you bring to LT, @DebiCates.

I'll second >3 elenchus:

But don't you dare compare us to Gardendale :-)

>2 keristars: Thank you Keri for being one of the especially good helpers--I love how you think outside the box and are very interested to test things to find on-the-ground answers. ❤️

>3 elenchus: Watch out, it could become a really big project the more I think about it, not limiting it to recipes, how about all the booktubers I love, literature turned into film and TV movies (British mostly), biographies of writers....yikes, see what I mean?

Thank you E for being one of those insightful and engaging commentors upon which I wait with bated breath. You have been an important person to my leaps of poetry enjoyment. ❤️

>4 bnielsen: LOL. I made that faux pas....once. Lesson learned. It took me several days to pat out little fiery embers still smoldering.

>7 DebiCates: LOL. And thanks for continuing to ask questions. I like it when new users of LT ask for something that I then discover hiding in plain sight somewhere on the website. Have you tried using the TinyCat interface yet?

https://www.librarycat.org/lib/DebiCates

You can set the cover carousel to display your books in random order, which is a nice way to be reminded of books sitting forgotten somewhere on the slopes of Mount TBR :-)

>8 bnielsen: What in the world.....I never knew what Tinycat was and thought it was a subscription service or something generally not applicable to me.

So, that carousel is interesting. I can't decide if would be a good reminder or a finger shaking shame-on-you at me, ha. I'm going to play with TinyCat.

Is it part of LibraryThing? Or something LT merely interfaces with?

"slopes of Mount TBR"...ha ha definitely slippery slopes, things always sliding down to no man's land.

>9 DebiCates: Is it part of LibraryThing? Or something LT merely interfaces with?

Yes and yes. It is the paying end of LT - a product for tiny libraries to give them a sophisticated lending platform. Each TC catalog is powered by an LT database that is pushed out to it. Hit the little curled up cat on the top toolbar and you can see your library on Tiny Cat. Individual users don't have to pay.

https://www.librarycat.org/lib/Bookmarque

That's for mine.

>9 DebiCates: The idea is that someone with a small library like a church or school can use LT for entering books and then use TinyCat as a normal library system with patrons lending books / putting them on hold / returning them either as self service or with the help of assigned assistents. (Zeph holds webinars on TinyCat each wednesday on 1 pm Eastern Time so if you have an hour to spend tomorrow you can join.) I still pick up an idea or two each time :-)

A link to the webinars (I think the link is the same each time)

https://www.librarything.com/topic/379064

And there you'll also find the TinyCat group and @ZephCraven

>11 bnielsen: So i wasn't all wrong when I thought it was designed for something not members. But, I see members can use it too!

Very kind of you to think of sharing and to share all that info about it, Kai.

>10 Bookmarque: Thank you, Kris. It's funny that literally yesterday I was thinking, "How in the world does LT keep the lights on without any ads or membership?" I wasn't going to be nosey and ask (gift horse and all that) but now I know it has at least one revenue stream and I don't have to believe in a rich tooth fairy for special websites.

>12 DebiCates: Thanks! Here is a link to Zeph's test library to give you some ideas of how to embellish your TinyCat, i.e. search links and pictures and such.

https://www.librarycat.org/lib/ZephTestTC

>13 bnielsen: OOOoooo. That's nice. I'm inspired to play with it, maybe this weekend.

>13 bnielsen: Is tinycat based off one's whole library, or can it be set up to be based off just certain collections, like To Read?

>12 DebiCates: Another revenue stream is the partnership for an information layer to public library OPACs.

My local system switched to it in Dec 2024 and it's very nice. The improvement over the old Sirsi data is great, especially for series. https://jaxpl.na4.iiivega.com/

>16 keristars: Lovely! So glad to see LT so activated with libraries and partnering for their needs. I'm not surprised, though, LT has a lot of literacy and public space focus.

>15 DebiCates: Good question! With a positive answer:

Under Settings / Basic (logged in as administrator in TinyCat (click the House icon at the bottom right side of your TinyCat page)) you'll find:

Include books from these collections
All collections / Select collections

so yes, it can be based off just certain collections, like To Read.

>18 bnielsen: I watched a few minutes of Zeph's tutorial on Youtube last night. It's going to be very helpful! Thanks Kai!

>10 Bookmarque: I'm curious about your tinycat, Kris. Do you, in fact, have some sort of lending library?

>20 DebiCates: no not really. I just did it for fun. If any of my friends wants to borrow a book (so far never), I could log it there or use the lending feature in LT itself.

>16 keristars: The improvement over the old Sirsi data is great, especially for series.

Not to toot our own horn, but LT members have developed truly excellent series coverage. It's so much better than what librarians stick in MARC records on a piecemeal basis.

>22 timspalding: Yes, it's so good! I could tell that a few books i looked at pulled in the comprehensive LT series data, and felt a bit of pride that I helped do that (about 15 years ago!)

:)

>21 Bookmarque: You know, I was thinking that it could be used to share books with friends, but most my avid reading friends are not irl, only online, to tell the truth.

If I had a Little Free Library at my house it could display books that are currently stocked. Wouldn't that be great if all LFL's around town did that? Save money on gas (big money these days) and reduce one's carbon footprint.

I could use it display what I've been reading in the current year. I always enjoy seeing that grow, visually.

It could be all the books I have on my shelves but haven't read yet, like Kai mentioned. Would remind me of those forgotten treasures on the Island of Misfit Books.

So many options...

ETA: I just had another idea. It could be used for reading groups, especially long standing ones. Newer members could use tinycat search to quickly see if a book they were going to recommend has already been read by the group.

>22 timspalding: >23 keristars: Good on you all! 👏👏👏👏👏

Not sure I should be in this conversation, but now I am. I am interested in what GoodReaders want changed, improved, etc. People from the "outside" are the best judges of what we do wrong.

>27 timspalding: I'm glad you asked. It won't surprise you. It is the lack of the ability to comment on reviews.

That alone is the thing I heard over and over as a firm deal-breaker for LT, in spite of all the suffering and lack of development on GR. I tried to explain LT's social activity is in groups and it is lively and rewarding. Also that LT still has DMs. I touted the many amenities here. But without the comments on reviews, I only got a handful of adventurers to even take the step to join LT. They haven't been very active here.

LT is not as--gulp--book centric. Odd as that may sound. I myself still feel that lack when I browse another member's library or see their review pop up in a book I'm considering reading or have just read myself. It feels like I had a big trip but no way to talk about it with others, especially those I know and those that made that same trip. It's a letdown.

There are a few other navigational things that make going from GR to LT hard (my personal experience) but that is secondary and part of any move from one kind of software to another. No one was active enough here to even mention anything of that nature. Fact is GR has less to offer, so is going to be simpler to use.

Tim, I heartily shared my LT journey over on GR in summaries and detail. People were appreciative but that's where it stayed. I then did a lot here on LT to help those that came. I got more responses and support from LT people than GRers. Many even enjoyed it and found it helpful, ha!

Still, I'm glad I did all that "work." I learned lots, I got comfortable, I made friends, and I even heard of a few other commiserations here (nothing is perfect) so I didn't feel like I was the lone village idiot.

I now enjoy LT every day and greatly admire what you and your team do.

I'd be curious as to your response. Was this what you wanted to know? Would you want to know more? Is the number one issue what you had already suspected?

Also curious as to Tim's response. I'm not surprised this is your answer, @DebiCates, and also not sure yet what I think about that change to LT, were it to come.

Are the comments directly linked to the review, such that the review author couldn't avoid seeing them when revisiting their own review?
Was there a lot of trolling on GR related to comments on reviews?
Did GR users ever find their review was hijacked for purposes they didn't intend?

I do like the idea of book-centric conversations, and there have been various discussions & efforts around increasing those. Recent example: functionality allowing insertion of reviews into a Talk thread, as I believe you've used yourself.

I worry that making reviews the central node for conversations would have spill-on effects that were less attractive than the conversations.

>1 DebiCates: Have you done the Challenge Hunts LT has? There will be a notice banner. I always do them and learn so much.
I never finished Sarum should restart it. I see it on your list of books we share. Also, where in West Texas? I am from Monahans.

>29 elenchus: I have never had a problem with my reviews on GR.

>31 mnleona: Appreciate that feedback! I could go look myself, I suppose, but it seemed best to ask in this thread first.

>29 elenchus: Many on LT have expressed concerns about comments on reviews that you mentioned. That's true even when it was suggested that comments could be made optional based on the reviewer's choice. Even when crappy comments could be flagged. (On GR they can be removed by the reviewer.)

I'm sure I provided Tim with nothing surprising to him. It's been discussed over the years here. Always shot down as being not the kind of Thing done here.

>31 mnleona: I haven't either. But I know it's a problem that exists. I have heard horror stories and have no reason not to believe them. I have seen a few instances on other's reviews. It never goes well for the bad commentor who crosses the line of civility. The forces rally and the review suddenly is the top review because of the activity. ha

It may be that comments-on-reviews is one of those differentiators which indicate "what LT does differently" as opposed to "what LT does wrong". Definitely a tricky proposition, sorting out those categories, but just as definitely they each exist.

>27 timspalding: Hey Tim, I've been thinking about that dead-end feeling and have an idea how to create a function not tied to reviews but is very much a social function tied to works/titles.

Here goes...

In essence, I'm thinking of what would be a specialized group, but an automated one, a place for a member to go to discuss a specific title with the option there even if no discussion has yet taken place. By going to the discussion and leaving a comment the member would receive future notifications on that book discussion, perhaps motivated to leave more commenting.

Structurally it would be like a group but what it is, at least seemingly, is just topics, not under an umbrella group (well, it could be actually a massive large group controlled on the backend, no new topics except by this automated way). The discussion creation/access is launched from within one's own library.

I know we can see discussions and touchstones (in the Community link) but often there are none or many noted as dormant. I suggest this would be different because

1. It would be accessed in our library, our book, at the exact place we are when finishing a book, rating it, reviewing it, looking back through other's reviews and (some of us) longing for comradery.
2. No need to take the plunge of starting or joining a traditional group, nor feel like you are late to the party or butting in on a group/topic started by "someone." Nor would it be related to a person like the 75 group.
3. It would be a push-of-a-button to get a discussion initiated. And push-a-button again to talk about that book.
4. Timeliness wouldn't matter, thus I envision it never garnered the appellation "dormant" even if it had an old single comment. How fun would that be to connect with someone on a title you thought no one in the world but you had read.
5. Other discussion members would be notified when someone has made a comment on that specific title discussion (topic) whether they were addressed or not, prompting maybe them to circle back to the discussion. There would be an opt out for that title notification at any time, irrespective of other possible discussion topics one would still want to be opted in.

Definitely would need the same flagging system for spammers but since they rarely have any books in their libraries that would be blessedly minimal.

So, that's it, an idea based on LT's existing structure and existing philosophies to connect to others in a book centric (NOT the GR review centric) way.

I could probably have put this over on Recommended Site Improvements. But first I wanted to see if this sort of thing is even in the realm of possibility.

>35 elenchus: You have made an excellent observation. There is a factor of natural human nature involved, beyond the specific objections.

I proposed a third way in the message iimmediately above. Although in my 6 month check in, I touted GR as "book centric" that's wrong, or only half true now that I thought more deeply about it. GR is, more specifically, "review centric by way of books."

My proposed idea was to take reviews out of the equation but to give us here the ability to directly connect focused on a single book. I would be interested in any thoughts on it. Did it seem clearly explained, at least?

Weirdly, we're going to have a solution to the review issue that also shouldn't annoy anyone who doesn't want them soon. I'll let you know more when I can.

>38 timspalding: Wonderful!!

>38 timspalding: I hope you read my idea above. I think it addresses more than just the comment on review GR kind of thing. It explains how a person thinks (me but surely others as well), a person that likes communicating about books and an easy (from the user perspective) way to do that.

>38 timspalding: A cliff-hanger? Nice!

>37 DebiCates: Clearly explained? For me, yes. I'm not sure how much is me reading your suggestion from the lens of my own ideas, but they fit very well with an idea I've had and I think discussed here on LT as part of those efforts I mentioned. (Not sure where those are but hope to post links if I come across them again.)

The central idea is the same: a formal, structural means for gathering discussions about any text. The first instance of a work being catalogued on LT would generate that structure; every user adding that book would be joined (nominally) to the discussion, but no expectation or requirement to contribute or even read what others have contributed.

>42 elenchus: That's it! Oh my you explained the same concept so well and succinctly. >38 timspalding: What elenchus said.