The Problem of Ambiguity Regarding Personal Names

Please excuse my first post. It shouldn't have been published yet. I clicked the wrong button.

This is just the first part of a draft.
I'll try to finish my thoughts and get back to you later.

Which Martin Lurher King? Both father and son are named after the reformation theologian Martin Luther, and the samily name is King. But there should always be Jr. or Sr. included.

One additional problem with Asian names is that some western publishers use the names in individual name family name order to make it easier for westerners, except it doesn't, but onlt confuses which order is correct.

For most Spanish names, you have to ask if the word in the middle is a middle name, or a continuation of the family name. Can we tell just by looking? Not really. Not without more information from the wikipedia article.

…not to mention Iceland, where a lot of people don’t use family names and naive cataloguers often mistake the patronymic for a family name.

The existing LT field scheme of “family name, given name” actually seems to deal with most of these cases already, provided people enter the data correctly. The only thing it doesn’t have is a way to say whether the name should be rendered with family name first or last.

>4 thorold: If there is no comma, it is shown as written.

What I find hilarious is the people who enter things that aren't personal names as if they were. 'Author, Unknown' 'Needlework, Royal School of'. Oh, well.

>5 MarthaJeanne: people who enter things that aren't personal names as if they were
I think a lot of them come from Amazon. But there's at least one person out there that manually enters and confirms the name "Digest, Readers" on work pages.

The Problem of Ambiguity with Personal Names

In Country Name Policy and Confusion of Canton (State) and City Names in Switzerland, a discussion is taking place that often involves unclear terminology.

I would like to bring up another data field that frequently leads to misunderstandings.
And this will lead to many more discussions and no solution that satisfies everyone.
It is the problem of personal names.

As keristars so aptly pointed out in the discussion: Confusion of Canton (State) and City Names in Switzerland in post #27 and the link to Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names.

I would like to begin with a few examples:
- Mario Vargas Llosa (Peru): Mario Vargas | Llosa? or Mario | Vargas Llosa?
- Martin Luther King (USA): Martin | Luther King? or Martin Luther | King?
- Jørn Lier Horst (Norway): Jørn Lier | Horst? or Jørn | Lier Horst?
For Peruvian, US, or Norwegian citizens, it should be clear. Not for me. Most of the time, even the Wikipedia entry doesn't help.

Another issue:
In the following examples, another difficulty arises. In many cultures, the order first name-last name is common. For example, England, Germany and France. In others, like China or rural areas of Switzerland, last name-first name is common.
With all these authors, it is often unclear which is the first name and which is the last name, or rather, which words belong to which.

Bernhard Thomas
Stefan George
Thomas Hardy
Philip Sydney
George Martin

With the exception of the first example, first name followed by last name is always correct.
In the first line, Thomas Bernhard would be correct.

I am aware that many other cultures have their own unique characteristics, such as Iceland, which was mentioned earlier.
And I have no knowledge of the naming conventions of Asian, Oceanic, African, and other cultures.

I see a pragmatic solution, at least for the first-name/last name problem. First name and last name would need to be separated into their own fields. One could also consider introducing fields for academic titles (Dr., Prof.), birth titles (de, von, of), or honorary titles (Baron, Duke, Princess, Sir). If there were also a display field (localized and/or user-defined), the vast majority of the problems would likely be solved.

Another issue is the lack of an option to mark pseudonyms with links to them, and of course, the linking of pseudonyms to birth names.

I like the transliteration custom of non-Latin names that puts the surname in all caps, no matter the order (and usually the style is applied to all names). Some libraries do this too. But it's not very helpful when there is no surname that you'd want to index, or when only part of the surname is the index name.

As far as I'm concerned, the "Last, First" is there to help with indexing/sorting, and if a name can't or shouldn't be contorted into that format, the "Last, First" is irrelevant.

I think it would be more useful to not call the hint "Last, First" but i have no idea what would be helpful and not a long paragraph of explanation. (This is where I wish, again, that I better understood the wiki to get a page for the ?/help panel to show more detailed guidelines. The relationships one always confuses me - I do not know the people listed!)

>7 birder4106: That pragmatic solution doesn’t work everywhere, though. In Sweden, names like “von Thisandthat” is considered one last name (with multiple parts), not a birth title and a last name (we're not big on titles). I’m sure that (or similar) is true in other places as well.

You have to know how the specific country does things. 'von' is a special problem because some countries consider it part of the family name, and some don't. The only real solution for many of the issues would be to convince publishers to include now to index the name on the copyright page.

>10 MarthaJeanne: Then you may have the issue of publishers in one country including it in the surname because that what they do there, but the author is from a country where it's not considered part of the surname - or vice versa.

It's a headache either way.

Reminds me of the Angelique series. I recall reading the English translations which were authored by Sergeanne Golon but the original French editions were Serge et Anne Golon...

>11 Maddz: Sorry. It was a stupid idea that publishers might do something helpful to customers and respectful to authors.

>12 MarthaJeanne: A stupid idea is not considering issues like this! It's a good idea if it can be implemented world-wide, but it's like herding cats... Or having different ISBNs for what is the same work. They're eventually going to run out - what should be happening is a unique ISBN for the work, plus a language code, plus a format code, plus a publisher (or country) code...

>9 PawsforThought:
A Swedish example from my library: Niklas Natt och Dag
or, as suggested in >8 keristars:, Niklas NATT OCH DAG.

Niklas Natt och Dag (Swedish) oder Niklas Natt och Dag (English)

I don't particularly like this solution. If the name only appears this way during entry and on the author page for clarification, that would be okay. On my catalog page, I still prefer the previous format.

If you go a step further and look at the birth name, it's no longer clear to me, as I'm not familiar with less common Swedish first names.
Niklas Carl Bosson Natt och Dag: I still recognize Niklas and Carl as first names. I've never seen Bosson before.
Is it another first name?
A (former) title of nobility?
Or perhaps part of the surname?
Could it even be the Swedish form of an honorific like "honoris causa"?

I don't know.
But if it's embedded in a suitable structure, it might help expand my knowledge.

(I hope my post doesn't come across as rude or know-it-all. That's not my intention, but rather an expression of my limited foreign language skills.)

>14 birder4106: Bosson is a first name, albeit very uncommon. There was a europop/eurodance singer who went by that moniker back in the day (90s)

Natt och Dag is a well-known family of nobles. (The name literally mean "Night and Day). And it should be as it is written "Niklas Natt och Dag" (or Natt och Dag, Niklas).

Adding to this is the confusing fact that in Swedish (at least formally, informally is a different matter), a "middle name" is a subset of last names. You can have two last names, and they can be hyphenated or not. If not, you can choose to only go by the last of them, the other will then be a middle name.

Here's one I find tricky, thank goodness he's not an author: Charles le Moyne de Longueuil et de Châteauguay

Le Moyne is the family name. But some of his sons were known instead as Bienville, d'Iberville, Sainte-Hélène

And then Spanish names can have a lot of parts. Simón José Antonio de la Santísima Trinidad Bolívar Palacios Ponte y Blanco (Simón Bolívar) is one example...

>15 PawsforThought:
My primary concern isn't how a name should appear in LT. I'm guided by the respective culture, customs, and especially how authors of all genders choose their names. I also think the way the display is currently handled is fine. "Natt och Dag, Niklas" is quite explanatory, in my opinion.

I primarily started this discussion out of interest. Which part of the name belongs to the surname or family name? Even though that can certainly have a different meaning or designation in other cultures.
Or to the first name? In German-speaking countries, it's usually also the given name (of people who know each other well).

I found another author in my library with more than two name parts: Linda Boström Knausgård.
I suspect Linda is the first name. In German-speaking countries, I'm quite certain that Boström is part of the surname. => Boström Knausgård, Linda.
What about this author?

>16 keristars:
Charles le Moyne de Longueuil and de Châteauguay
=> le Moyne de Longueuil et de Châteauguay, Charles.
Or in this case, because of the "de" more precisely
=> Moyne de Longueuil et de Châteauguay, Charles de.

Simon Bolívar:
Simón José Antonio de la Santísima Trinidad Bolívar Palacios Ponte y Blanco
=> Bolívar Palacios Ponte y Blanco, Simón José Antonio de la Santísima Trinidad?

Antonio de la Santísima =>"Anthony of the Most Holy"?

>17 birder4106: Bolívar's given name is Simón José Antonio de la Santísima Trinidad. He got Bolívar from his father and Palacios from his mother.

Per wikipedia, his parents' names were Juan Vicente Bolívar y Ponte and María de la Concepción Palacios y Blanco.

Le Moyne was that, from what I understand, but his sons appended their lands/titles to their names as well. So Jean-Baptiste le Moyne de Bienville, the 11th son, is called Bienville. It's really common for the family name to disappear in favor of the title. René-Robert Cavelier, Sieur de La Salle is known in basically every history as La Salle.

>17 birder4106: Linda Boström Knausgård is the daughter of someone called Boström and (for a time) was married to someone called Knausgård. According to Wikipedia her given names are Ingrid Linda Philippa, so she’s making it easy for us by the name she chooses to publish under.

>13 Maddz: My understanding is that publishers pay for ISBNs. So in many cases you'll get ISBNs recycled for books in different formats - which frankly drives me nuts, and I have to make a separate note to differentiate between the tall/premiums mass markets and the short ones, as well as between publisher hardcovers and book club editions. The physical books are different and often have different numbers of pages etc. They also reuse the same number for books with different covers. When I'm on a hunt in the bookshop (90,000 volumes) I need to be able to tell at a glance what size book I'm looking for at least. Since the prices are also different (both new and used) that also affects things. Then again some publishers put new numbers on new but identical printings, which is also annoying.
One issue I've been running into recently is that LT doesn't recognize ISBNs with a 979 prefix as ISBNs, relegating it to a field one has to hunt through the entry to find - and leaving the ISBN blank. I don't honestly think we're likely to run out of numbers any time soon. The number of permutations possible with the new 979 prefix and ten digits following is mind-boggling.

Surnames can be very confusing even if you think you know the culture the author is from. I give you Alexander McCall Smith, whose surname is properly McCALL SMITH, and who should be filed in the M's. I'm embarrassed by how long it took me to twig to that.
I speak Spanish so am conversant with Hispanic naming traditions, but explaining to customers that Gabriel Garcia Marquez is in the M's and Carlos Ruiz Zafon is in the R's can be aggravating to all parties.
For my own part, I am perpetually puzzled over whether "de" in a last name gets counted as part of the surname or not. For Tatiana de Rosnay, yes. For many others, no. Often you can't tell from publishing data or reviews either. I've spent more time than I care to admit trying to figure these out.

>17 birder4106: Boström is a last name - and a very typical one for Sweden. If a name ends in "ström" it is always a last name (you're not allowed to give children first names with a "last name characteristic" in Sweden). Basically, if it's referring to a place in nature it's 99,99% likely to be a last name (Boström esentially means "dwelling place by a stream").

As >19 thorold: pointed out, she has (like many people do), three first names, but it's actually not a matter of "choosing to publilsh under" one of them. Linda is her offical name. The system for first names is not the sam in Sweden as it is (from what I can understand) in the US and some other places. You can have multiple first names, in whichever order you like, and one of them is designated your "addressing name" (my translation, the word is "tilltalsnam" - the name people address you by). It does not have to be the first of your first names - like in the case of Linda Boström Knausgård it can be the second or third or nth. It's most common for it to be the first one, and people sometimes assume if they see a full name that the first one is the "right one". In my family, it's about fifty-fifty on whether your tilltalsnamn is the first of your first names. (People choose name order for their kids based on what flows best, not which name they're going to go by, and this is generally specified in official records by underlining the tilltalsnamn.) If you want to change your tilltalsnamn you have to file a change with the Tax Authority.
So for "Ingrid Linda Philippa Boström Knausgård", Ingrid Linda Philippa Linda are her first names, of which Linda is her tilltalsnamn, and Boström Knausgård are her last names.

Perhaps it helps to look at the problem from a different perspective.

How should author names be formatted so that books can be correctly categorized in an author index in the US or UK?

I would expect the following spelling:
- Bolívar Palacios Ponte y Blanco, Simón José Antonio de la Santísima Trinidad
- Boström Knausgård, Ingrid Linda Philippa
- King, Martin Luther Jr.
- Lier Horst, Jørn
- Mathers, Marshall Bruce III (aka Eminem)
- McCall Smith, Alexander
- Moyne de Longueuil et de Châteauguay, Charles le
- Natt och Dag, Niklas Carl BossonTrinidad
- Rosnay, Tatiana de
- Vargas Llosa, Mario

"Der Duden", the leading German-language dictionary, has the following view on the sorting of names.
(Translation German-English Google Translate):

Alphabetical Name Lists

Anyone tasked with creating alphabetical name lists often finds themselves pondering the process. What happens, for example, to name prefixes like "von" or "van"? How are academic degrees or titles of nobility handled?

The same principles apply to alphabetical name lists as to the arrangement of headwords in encyclopedias and dictionaries. Prefixes such as "de," "van," or "von" are generally disregarded during alphabetization, for example, Nolde – Nolden – van Norden or Maisel – Maiser – de Maizière, unless they are capitalized, e.g., Vanbrugh – Van Buren – Vance.

Academic degrees or titles of nobility also play no role in the alphabetization of personal names: Hinkels, Otto – Hinkelstein, Fritz Freiherr von. Academic degrees are placed after the name: Knoll, Markus, Dr. – Knolle, Emma, ​​M.A. – Knolle, Friedrich, Prof. Dr.

So-called diacritical marks, such as umlauts or accents, are generally disregarded. The digraphs ä, ö, ü, and äu are treated like a, o, u, and au: Knobel – Knödel – Knoffel. Only when there are conflicting cases does the single letter precede the same letter with a diacritic: Bahr – Bähr.

Names with ae, oe, or ue are listed after ad, od, or ud, respectively. Incidentally, address and telephone directories make an exception here, listing ä, ö, and ü after ad, od, and ud.

As I mentioned in section 7, I consider splitting the "whole" name into several fields a practical solution.

I see a pragmatic solution, at least for the first-name/last name problem. First name and last name would need to be separated into their own fields. One could also consider introducing fields for academic titles (Dr., Prof.), birth titles (de, von, of), or honorary titles (Baron, Duke, Princess, Sir). If there were also a display field (localized and/or user-defined), the vast majority of the problems would likely be solved.

This splitting should take place on the author's individual page. If it occurs in a separate section, this part could be hidden, so that only the author's name remains visible.
The formatting could be done depending on the location of LT's occurrence and the language localization of LT, or by individuals with the necessary expertise.
On the catalog page, in the profile, etc., the user should be able to customize the name display according to their personal preferences.

You can't split the fields, because that is not how the data comes to LT.

>22 PawsforThought: And in Denmark, the next country over, Knausgård would be her last name, and Boström (one of her) middle name(s). In Danish you would have to hyphenate to have her archived under B instead of K.
Ex: Sigrid Kraglund Adamsson is filed under A, whereas Anne-Sophie Lunding-Sørensen is filed under L.

>25 amberwitch: That used to be the case in Sweden too, but we changed the name law a few years ago. The rules are more lenient now.

>4 thorold: I knew patronymics weren't the same as family names, but I had no idea they weren't supposed to be handled the same way in sorting, frankly. I suppose that fixes my problem with Arabic-style patronymics in particular, where then everyone who has that style of name will be sorted under 'b' for either 'bin' or 'bint'!

On surnames being fiddly no matter your familiarity with the culture, I have no experience with this with authors, but in doing genealogy I've found a few instances where families end up giving their firstborn child the mother's maiden name as a middle name. I've only seen this so far in parts of my family that were already in Canada, and here the default is that you can't have two surnames separated by a space (i.e. 'Jones Smith'), only a single hyphenated surname (i.e. 'Jones-Smith'), so it gets treated like only the last part is their surname, but I have no idea if that's how they would've preferred it to be treated or not. Actually, this kind of ends up being a problem with forenames too — I have a few ancestors with names like "Carol Ann" or "Mary Ann" that are intended to be treated like one forename and not two, but aren't because of how names are treated from a legal perspective in Canada.